Hi Ian
I was also musing about how our thoughts are linked to
our values and then may fed back to change even expereiences
like pain.
DM
DM, Ron, DMB et al ..
DM, I think this post and your later one are simply leading us to
accept that yes, there is some pre-linguitsic, primary, immediate
experience. Our "consciousness" of that is some kind of
"pre-linguistic / pre-intellectual thought".
Embracing reality directly.
We always get tied in knots (the hot stove etc, except perhaps DMB
invoking "radical empiricism") when we try to "define" it - which is
hardly surprising - since as soon as we do that we move into the
linguistic / intellectual realm.
How much we all have the "same" pre-linguistic experience I suspect we
will only ever know when we share those experiences
pre-linguistically, directly - which clearly we are never going to do
by e-mail.
Regards
Ian
On 5/24/08, David M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Ian/Ron
Do we all experience pain in the same way?
I remember reading about how for the ancients
Greeks, pain was an experience that provided the
opportunity to demonstrate how manly and herioc
they were. Not how I find myself experiencing it,
ouch, I want my mommy!
David M
> Interesting Ron, Arlo,
>
> This is leading us to the "immediate participation before (typically
> objective)intellectualization" story (if we weren't already there),
> but Ron,
>
> Why do you say it [the immediate response to Quality] "makes the MoQ
> questionable as to being axiomatic this way" ?
> Could you elaborate / explain that point ? Are you suggesting it is
> even more fundamental in some way than simply axiomatic of the MoQ ?
> (and hence the misundersanding with Bo in another thread)
>
> Ian
>
> On 5/14/08, Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > [Platt]
> > A particular person? Then why does Pirsig write, "Any person of any
> > philosophic persuasion who sits on a hot stove will verify without
> > any intellectual argument whatsoever that he is in an undeniably
> > low-quality situation: that the value of his predicament is
> > negative." (Lila, 5) Get it -- ANY PERSON.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> >
> > But, I will say, if Pirsig is implying that all humans with similar
> > biological constucts respond on the biological level to some
> > inorganic stimuli in more or less the same way, I would agree. Human
> > bodies biologically respond to "hunger" the same way (increased
> > stomach acid, energy deficiencies, etc). But each bounded organism
> > has its own unique threshold, its own unique responses, and over time
> > may come to "experience" hunger along a range of "low quality" to
> > "high quality" as this inorganic experience becomes mediated by
> > social and cultural patterns.
> >
> > When this monk sets himself on fire in intellectual protest, do you
> > see any evidence that he perceived his experience to be "low
> > quality"?
(http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V3627)
> >
> >
> > Ron:
> > How co-incidental, I was thinking of that same footage when
> > Reading your post.
> > On a side note, I think your statement is accurate, we all respond to
> > Stimuli in more or less the same way and in that aspect we
> > Respond to Quality. we still like to think objectively
> > About this statement. All in all it is this response to Quality that
> > Makes the MoQ questionable as to it being axiomatic in this way.
> > The proof lies in the fact that we all respond to Quality.
> > Not equally as you state, but that instant "no thinking" response
> > Is something all of us shares. It's this commonality that is the most
> > certain In our experience.
> > What do you think this?
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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