No doubt about it DM, Different levels of consciousness / sub-consciousness support many different feedback loops across the levels .... if fact that's what consciousness is (with my strange, loopy, Hofstadterian hat on.)
Ian On 5/28/08, David M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Ian > > I was also musing about how our thoughts are linked to > our values and then may fed back to change even expereiences > like pain. > > DM > > > > > DM, Ron, DMB et al .. > > > > DM, I think this post and your later one are simply leading us to > > accept that yes, there is some pre-linguitsic, primary, immediate > > experience. Our "consciousness" of that is some kind of > > "pre-linguistic / pre-intellectual thought". > > > > Embracing reality directly. > > > > We always get tied in knots (the hot stove etc, except perhaps DMB > > invoking "radical empiricism") when we try to "define" it - which is > > hardly surprising - since as soon as we do that we move into the > > linguistic / intellectual realm. > > > > How much we all have the "same" pre-linguistic experience I suspect we > > will only ever know when we share those experiences > > pre-linguistically, directly - which clearly we are never going to do > > by e-mail. > > > > Regards > > Ian > > > > On 5/24/08, David M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi Ian/Ron > > > > > > Do we all experience pain in the same way? > > > > > > I remember reading about how for the ancients > > > Greeks, pain was an experience that provided the > > > opportunity to demonstrate how manly and herioc > > > they were. Not how I find myself experiencing it, > > > ouch, I want my mommy! > > > > > > David M > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting Ron, Arlo, > > > > > > > > This is leading us to the "immediate participation before (typically > > > > objective)intellectualization" story (if we weren't already there), > > > > but Ron, > > > > > > > > Why do you say it [the immediate response to Quality] "makes the MoQ > > > > questionable as to being axiomatic this way" ? > > > > Could you elaborate / explain that point ? Are you suggesting it is > > > > even more fundamental in some way than simply axiomatic of the MoQ ? > > > > (and hence the misundersanding with Bo in another thread) > > > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > > > On 5/14/08, Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Platt] > > > > > A particular person? Then why does Pirsig write, "Any person of any > > > > > philosophic persuasion who sits on a hot stove will verify without > > > > > any intellectual argument whatsoever that he is in an undeniably > > > > > low-quality situation: that the value of his predicament is > > > > > negative." (Lila, 5) Get it -- ANY PERSON. > > > > > > > > > > [Arlo] > > > > > > > > > > But, I will say, if Pirsig is implying that all humans with similar > > > > > biological constucts respond on the biological level to some > > > > > inorganic stimuli in more or less the same way, I would agree. Human > > > > > bodies biologically respond to "hunger" the same way (increased > > > > > stomach acid, energy deficiencies, etc). But each bounded organism > > > > > has its own unique threshold, its own unique responses, and over > time > > > > > may come to "experience" hunger along a range of "low quality" to > > > > > "high quality" as this inorganic experience becomes mediated by > > > > > social and cultural patterns. > > > > > > > > > > When this monk sets himself on fire in intellectual protest, do you > > > > > see any evidence that he perceived his experience to be "low > > > > > quality"? > > > (http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V3627) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron: > > > > > How co-incidental, I was thinking of that same footage when > > > > > Reading your post. > > > > > On a side note, I think your statement is accurate, we all respond > to > > > > > Stimuli in more or less the same way and in that aspect we > > > > > Respond to Quality. we still like to think objectively > > > > > About this statement. All in all it is this response to Quality that > > > > > Makes the MoQ questionable as to it being axiomatic in this way. > > > > > The proof lies in the fact that we all respond to Quality. > > > > > Not equally as you state, but that instant "no thinking" response > > > > > Is something all of us shares. It's this commonality that is the > most > > > > > certain In our experience. > > > > > What do you think this? > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > Archives: > > > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
