[Nick] I purchased this land in the most peaceful way I know how. [Arlo] Sooo close, Nick. By whose authority is that transaction valid? Why should I recognize that "purchase" as legitimate? What makes it YOURS?
[Nick] I can't change what happened in the past. If I could change it, then I would. [Arlo] In other words, hey, I wasn't the person who killed the Indians for this land, I just bought it from the murderer... but because I bought it it is now morally mine. Right. [Nick] It is not my fault what people did over 400 years ago. I wasn't alive. [Arlo] Yet you still call your land "yours", despite the fact that it was stolen. Give it back, Nick, be moral. [Nick] Indians owned their land. It was their territory. [Arlo] They saw the land as being given to their tribe. No one person "owned" a lake, and could put a fence around it and keep others from swimming in it. In many ways, our public parks are like this. [Nick] Arlo do you really believe I can give up my land back to Indians? Where would I go? [Arlo] Who cares? You'd get that bloody stolen off your hands, and you could stop pretending its "yours". After that you could live in peace. [Nick] I do not want to harm anybody and when I acquired this land - I - acquired it peacefully. [Arlo] Ah, Nick, soooo very close. By whose authority is this acquisition valid. Why should I recognize it as being valid? Just because you gave some money to some other guy? By what authority did the previous owner "own" the land? Come on, think, you're close... [Nick] Natural rights are not born of the government. Only individuals themselves have natural property. Arlo you are ignorant of this history. [Arlo] Damn. And you were so close. Then you go posting nonsense like this. "Property" is not a natural right. It is an intellectual right conferred by civil governance. It was not until very recent in human times did people create a civil governance that would allow "property". And it was a good thing. But it was not "natural". So close, Nick, so close. [Nick] Arlo you are ignorant of this history. I would drop it. I have posted a link to a paper that discusses natural rights. [Arlo] Sadly, it is you have been misguided from a genuine historical understanding of what you talk about. I have no need to drop anything. I am speaking the truth. I am sorry if that bothers you. [Nick] You would be better off reading about them instead of looking foolish in your attempts to argue something you haven't tried to learn about. [Arlo] Me look foolish? Haha. Funny. History is on my side here, maybe you should read more than one or two books, and you might learn a thing or two. [Nick] And property is natural. That's why the Indians had homes and when attacked they defended their homes. It is natural to live somewhere and call it your home. [Arlo] You can call somewhere "home" without "owning" it. Property is not natural. In fact, it is about as UN-natural as you can get. "How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?" (Chief Seattle) The very idea that someone could call a lake or a hill "their property" and keep others off of it was absurd. It was not "property", if anything it was a communal extension of their shared history. It was sacred ground for the tribe because of the tribe's history there. [Nick] You don't even know what property is. My food, water, and shelter is my property. [Arlo] No, its your food, your water and your shelter. You don't "own" them outside a civil governance that recognizes this exclusive claim. Move to some area in the world that does not do this, say central Australia among the Aborignees, and tell them "this is MY water", and they'll laugh at you. If someone else in the tribe is thirsty, it would be an affront not to give it to them.. because it is as much theirs as it is yours. [Nick] This land I bought peacefully is my property. [Arlo] Again, so close. By whose authority is your purchase valid? [Nick] You are coercing upon me the sufferings and pains of what criminals did to these people centuries ago. [Arlo] Well you have their stolen land. You bought it from a murder and a thief. Does that make it okay? So if I kill you and steal your land and then sell it to someone else, it should morally be theirs because they didn't do the killing? [Nick] Yes I am being forced to pay taxes. [Arlo] No, Nick, you are not. It is your choice to live in the infrastructure of civil governance, and so you will pay if you do. But no one is making you, that is your choice. [Nick] If I don't, then I am pushed off my land in a "might makes right" policy. [Arlo] Gee... sounds to me like that's how you got your land in the first place. [Nick] You are saying to me, "Pay now or I will kick you off your land." [Arlo] Nope. I am saying that your choice to be part of a civil infrastructure requires you to pay your fair share to support it. [Nick] So you are advocating IPC against me because I believe in liberty. [Arlo] Time for those meds again, Nick. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
