[Arlo previously] What makes it YOURS? [Nick] It's natural Arlo. It's a concept that has been understood before the government of the U.S. ever existed. I handed out a paper on this. I suggest you read it.
[Arlo] Let me try again. What makes your land YOURS, Nick. Just because you say it is? That you are standing on it? Its not "natural" in any means, that doesn't even make sense. What if I "sold" you ten acres of land of the middle of Australia, and you flew over there and told the Aboriginees that the land is now "yours" because you bought it? They'd laugh hysterically. Your claim means nothing to them. You think they'd pick up and move off that land because you claim its "yours"? Think a bit here, Nick, you're very close to reveleation, what makes it YOURS? [Nick] So you are bringing up a non-sequitur by saying I have partaken in something that I would have denounced on the spot. So you are veering off-course. But now you partake in stealing and murder. [Arlo] No, Nick, YOU are partaking in stealing and murder by continuing to claim that the land is yours. You continue to justify this by saying, "hey, it wasn't me who did the killin'". So I assume if someone did kill you, take your land, and sell it to someone else, that new owner would be the moral owner of the land because he wasn't the one who actually killed you? [Nick] I can not change what people did then. [Arlo] What a cop out. How convenient that you are benefiting from the stealing and murder. [Nick] Oh, really. So now you're the Indian expert? You speak for them? [Arlo] I've read quite a bit, and what I said was true. Their "land" was communal, it didn't "belong" to the tribe so much as the tribe "belonged" to it. Perhaps you should read a bit, Nick, but I am sorry this is shattering your argument. You could always do the good ideologue thing and bury your head and hope it'll go away. [Nick] I don't know how they viewed another person coming into their tee-pee and stealing their bow. I don't think it would have been advocated. [Arlo] You can't steal what isn't "owned" by someone. Whatever sense of "entitlement" to objects was felt among the tribe was a civil agreement, and this was much looser than our Western notion of "property". So I imagine that this wouldn't have been an issue at all. [Nick] You don't know any of this Arlo. You're making it up as you go. [Arlo] My advice is to read a bit, Nick, or you could try this technique of burying your head in the sand. [Nick] No Arlo. The government didn't make up property rights. Humans did for thousands of years and have discussed it. [Arlo] No, Nick. Humans enacted civil governance to provide the authority to the intellectual concept of "property". It is not a "natural" concept. It did NOT exist for thousands of years. [Nick] Read the article I posted. It will help you learn. You are way off....lol [Arlo] No, Nick, and if you could come out of your haze you'd see that. You really need to expand your reading list. You might try a public library. [Nick] It is well understood that the individual(s) made the state and made the federal government so what the individuals made they can tear down. [Arlo] Sure individuals made the state, and they did so because doing so was GOOD. It was necessary because the state is the authority that provides legitimacy to their ideas on civil participation. Sure you can tear it down, but you are confusing the university with The University. You can dismantle the government, but you can not dismantle governance. Without it, your claims of property ownership are meaningless. Go to central Australia, set up a tent, and declare "this land is mine", and see how far that will get you. [Nick] It is natural. aka natural rights. [Arlo] Oh, well, if you give it this label then it must be so. [Nick] Now read up and learn why they are called natural rights Arlo. You really don't understand what you are talking about and are seriously looking foolish. [Arlo] I have no worries, Nick, its you who are looking more foolish with every post. There are no "natural" rights, "rights" are always a civil agreement among a social group. In our modern time of reason we are conferring intellect to the public debate about "rights". Perhaps you should read some history. Go tell an Aborignee that he has a "natural right" to "own" land, and he'll laugh in your face. Its outside his cultural view, and is a meaningless concept to him. Well, its becoming meaningful to them only because their land is being fenced off by others who claim it is "theirs". So many see it as dangerous, maybe not so funny per se. [Nick] That's why they are called "natural" rights. Are you suggesting you will steal my land? I never stole anybody's land. -- I -- never did. [Arlo] They are called "natural" rights as an appeal to a higher "authority". But these "rights" do not exist in nature. They only exist out of the social and intellectual agreements among humans. Does a dog have a "natural" right to property? Are you stealing every time you take your dog's chew toy away? Are we stealing land from animals when we tear down a forest to build a housing development? [Nick] Wow you need to read up on this stuff...lol [Arlo] Come out of your haze, Nick. Here you go, tell me why "humans" have a natural right to property but animals do not. C'mon, answer that one. You are so close to revelation. So very close. I'll give you a hint, the words "social" and "intellectual" are in the answer. [Nick] They are called "natural" rights for a reason. Unless YOU are advocating stealing my land. Are you? [Arlo] Again with "your" land. Its stolen property, Nick, give it back. Its only YOUR land within the civil agreements of our society. Whoops! I answered one for you. The legitimacy of your claim that the land is "yours" derives from the state's recognition of your claim. I am not advocating stealing your land, I am saying that if you choose to depend on this legitimacy to make your claim, then you need to go along with the civil agreements on HOW that happens, and part of that is, currently, paying property taxes to support the infrastructure that keeps your land "yours". You seem so close to understanding, Nick. C'mon, its not much further. [Nick] Ah, no Arlo. Home and property are the same thing. [Arlo] Ah, no Nick. Home is where the heart is. You can't own that in any material sense. [Nick] If you take my land, then it is called stealing. [Arlo] Isn't that how you got your land in the first place? [Nick] But if you tried to invade them or steal a person horse don't you think they would try to stop you? duh? you idiot...lol [Arlo] If you were a member of the tribe, you could use any horse you wanted. Sure, they had a sense of communal belonging, but as I said it was not so much this land belongs to us, as our people belong to this land. It was nowhere near the idea of "property" that you espouse. C'mon, Nick, there's a world full of books and information out there. Give it a try, will ya? [Nick] But they can't come in my house and say it's my water so I'm coming here anytime I want to drink it. Your pathetic you dummie. [Arlo] You're denying your thirsty neighbors water and *I'm* pathetic? But you are close again, Nick, what makes it YOUR house? Why should your neighbor believe its YOURS and he can't go in it? [Nick] Use some common sense you idiot. I didn't steal it and I wouldn't have if I was around. [Arlo] Right. Have someone else do your killing and stealing for you. Then buy the land from the killer and thief. That absolves you of all responsibility. Got it. So if I want your land, the moral thing to do is have someone else kill you and steal the land, and then sell it to me. Then I can say "hey, I didn't steal it!" Got it. [Nick] But you are at a time in your life when you CAN choose liberty and you don't. So you are more the fool. [Arlo] You have an orgasm every time you type "liberty", don't you. Come on, I can tell. Its one of those words. You can be honest. I choose liberty, what I don't choose is to subscribe to your twisted ideas on what that means. If that makes me a "fool" in your eyes, oh well, I suppose the whackjob on my street corner telling me black helicopters are coming also thinks I am a fool for not believing him. But I don't care. [Nick] So how could "I" have gotten it that way in the first place. You're such a stupid fool. [Arlo] Someone killed the Indians and stole their land. They then sold it to you. Well, a few other people in between. Nonetheless, the ONLY reason that land is YOURS is because it was stolen and the "owners" murdered. You keep calling it "yours" and every time you do you legitimize murder and stealing. [Nick] And if I don't you advocate IPC. You have a choice for liberty now and you choose to steal and murder. Such a sadistic fool. [Arlo] Well you can't have all the benefits of the civil infrastructure without playing by the rules of the game. You have a choice to play, and if you don't no one is stopping you or hurting you. You can walk away and live in peace. It's like your saying, I want to be part of the football team, but its immoral for them to coerce me into practicing at certain times, working out, doing what the coach says. How dare they coerce me like that! You have a choice not to be part of the team, Nick. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
