Mary, To simplify my question, how do you know genocide comes from biology, or from the social, or the logical or the political, or from the very heart of man.
Racial purity is not a good thing from a biological standpoint, leads to all manner of disease. The war criminals at Nuremberg pleaded that they were only following the law of their land. (the social, political, moral law of their own) This was their defense, and their lawyer raised this issue. They were convicted on the basis of a "higher law" a law of nature that transcended any local, cultural or societal, or biological law. This is the same law of nature spoken of in our Declaration of Independence, along side with the God of nature that guarantees such a law. And in an earlier post you complained that God was about controlling people. I just want to point out that every society has laws. On the social level there are always laws that tell you what you can and cannot do. (to control you!) So this is an inescapable fact of social life and not specific to any particular belief system. Particular belief systems have given rise to more personal freedoom that others. Most social political systems throughout history have enslaved men. So it is a very important question to understand the foundations of our freedom. And systems that see man as basically good, lead to enslavement by men who are not. Are founders clearly did not regard man as good but as fallen creatures. They feared the concentration of political power for this reason. And all the safeguards in our Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the balance of powers, and the limits to time in office, all are based on the idea that human nature fell when the rest of creation did. The very reason for inalienable rights was not because they came from fallen man who could take them away, but that they came from God. And the reason that man was believed that it was wrong to deprive a man of his life, liberty and property, was because we were all created by and all served the same sovereign God. Read Locke's Second Treatise on Government to see where Jefferson got this idea that ended up in the Declaration of Ind. Thanks, Jon On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Jon Bennett <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey Mary, > > The point I was making is that Christianity was the supposed belief system > of both persecuted and persecutor, as was the case in the south with > slavery. Some souther "christians" used Christianity to justify slavery. > However, the slaves, and the abolitionists were likewise Christians who used > the teaching of their faith to abolish slavery. > > Yet Christianity is often blamed for these crimes which, in truth, it > brought to an end for the first time in history. > > As to moq and its levels, and which is primary. On what possible evidence > can you base such a conclusion. It is a faith based assumption, someone > else's faith based assumption that you have adopted on faith. There is no > evidence for such a selfish gene theory. > > Who says or can justify such a view that a bilogical level values anything, > much less genocide. I hope to get into DW soon. He shows why none of the > levels has any absolute meaning of its own, and none that can be held > superior to another level. > > I keep coming back to how we know. That's the starting point. How can we > have any valid knowledge? Cause Pirisg says so, cause DW says so? Cause you > or I think so? No, there's something deeper. > > And there are different social priorites, ethical, legal, even natural law. > These change-some agree with genocide, like Hitler, while others condemn it. > > And who is to say the genocidal aspect of biology dominates the > co-operative aspect, the symbiotic aspect. These are imputed to nature by > man's mind and change with the fashion of the times. > > One final question on the genocide notion. Which law trumped which in the > Nuremburg trials? And what do you think of the concept of natural law > in itself and in relation to the biological law of genocide. > > Thanks, > Jon > > > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Mary <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hello Jon, >> >> >> > Are you making the belief of the victims the cause of the crime? >> >> [Mary Replies] >> No. It is the belief of the criminals which is the cause of the crime. >> >> > I am not speaking about the goodness of man, but the goodness of a >> > specific >> > belief system. And if you are one that thinks man is basically good, >> > and you >> > don't believe in God, then who commit >> > ted these atrocities throughout history, the ones you and I mention??? >> > It >> > had to be man in all his natural goodness! >> > >> [Mary Replies] >> Of course. >> >> The MoQ says that what is valued at one level is not necessarily valued at >> the next. Value is equated with good. The Biological Level values >> genocide >> as one possible way to assure the persistence of one genetic pool over >> another. The eternal battle of DNA. Having many offspring would be >> another. It is perfectly valid to debate the relative morality of each >> solution. However, in a more overarching sense, the Biological values >> biology and probably has no preference for any particular configuration of >> DNA over another. At least at its most basic. You can't neglect the fact >> that the Biological Level is very old and humans have only existed >> briefly. >> But I stray from my point. >> >> The values of Biology were the foundation from which the Social Level >> arose. >> Pirsig explains that each level depends on the continued existence of >> those >> below it, but the levels are in a moral hierarchy. What is more moral is >> that which supports the higher level without destroying the lower. It's a >> hierarchy of moral Quality all the way down. >> >> Mary >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
