Sorry If I was rude in my response. I do also have a great interest in physics, classical and quantum, and their theological roots.
If you like physics, and haven't read Caprs's The Turning Point, you should check it out. I think I can find a link online to the entire work. Capra identifies the archetypal ideas of modern physics as similar to those of the I Ching. Or rather he uses the yin and yang archetypes to explain the archetypal ideas behind classical and quantum physics. Take care, Jon On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 3:50 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Jon, > Sorry Jon, I could have been considered just as rude to not > respond at all. I guess I made the wrong choice. > > > Marsha > > > > On Apr 26, 2010, at 2:38 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > > > Marsha, > > Why bother to tell me what you don't want to discuss unless it is kind of > > personal one-upmanship that motivates you. > > > > It does not surprise me that you are unwilling to explore the facts, and > are > > comfortable with your own biases. > > > > And it certainly does not bring me agony but is a blessed relief. > > > > Jon > > > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:20 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> Hello Jon, > >> > >> To lessen the agony, I will tell you that I have no interest in > discussing > >> theism, God, Moses, Jesus, Zeus, or any of the men who wrote the > >> various versions of the bible. Sorry, but not interested... > >> > >> > >> Marsha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >> > >>> Marsha, > >>> > >>> Many call themselves, or claim to be Christians who do not follow the > >>> teachings of Christ. > >>> > >>> So here is an important distinction to keep in mind. Many of the > >> atrocities > >>> of > >>> atheist regimes are in perfect harmony with their basic assumptions. > The > >>> Witch burnings, and Inquisition were counter to Biblical teaching. > >>> > >>> In fact, they did have their origin in Neoplatonic thought which sought > >> to > >>> liberate the soul from the body, to save the soul. This is not a > Biblical > >> or > >>> Christian teaching!!! I don't care who does it or what they call > >> themselves. > >>> I am saying a Biblical world view is the origin of human rights in the > >> West, > >>> and their enshrinement in law. > >>> > >>> In the case of Heidegger, he explicitly applied his philosophy to > justify > >>> Hitler and the Nazi regime! It was in perfect agreement, and > fulfillment > >> of > >>> his thought. This is a major difference. > >>> > >>> Likewise, he saw the crisis in philosophy as one and the same with the > >>> crisis in Western Europe, and he saw his philosophy, and the German > state > >> as > >>> the fulfillment and answer to that crisis. > >>> > >>> And he also saw great parallels with Greek language and philosophy and > >>> German language and philosophy. > >>> And if you look at Greek philosophy and Greek politics you will not > find > >> the > >>> freedom and rights we have. You will find slavery, oppression of women, > >> and > >>> warfare between and among the city states. The average Greek died at > age > >> 25 > >>> because of this unrest, and even at its height the Golden age of Greece > >>> lasted only 50 years. > >>> > >>> But show me where the Inquisition is taught in the Bible, or the > burning > >> of > >>> witches. In the Inquisition it was Christians who were tortured too!!! > >>> Remember the Pit and the Pendulum, it was a Protestant under the > >> Pendulum! > >>> This fictional story is correct in this aspect > >>> > >>> Are you making the belief of the victims the cause of the crime? The > >>> Catholic Church likewise persecuted the reformers, burning Tyndale, and > >>> others at the stake for trying to translate the Bible so the common > folk > >>> could read it. It was this long tortuous struggle for religious reform > >> in > >>> the West that led to religious freedom, upon which all the rest of our > >>> freedoms rest. > >>> > >>> I am not speaking about the goodness of man, but the goodness of a > >> specific > >>> belief system. And if you are one that thinks man is basically good, > and > >> you > >>> don't believe in God, then who commit > >>> ted these atrocities throughout history, the ones you and I mention??? > It > >>> had to be man in all his natural goodness! > >>> > >>> Jon > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Jon, > >>>> > >>>> If you want to connect German philosophy with the Nazis, I get to > >> connect > >>>> Christian philosophy with the Inquisition. And just to refresh your > >> memory > >>>> patterns, the Northern European Protestant-Christians burned more > >> "witches" > >>>> then their southern Catholic-Christian counterpart. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Marsha > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Apples and organges. I did not say I was a Catholic. The Catholic > >> church > >>>> was > >>>>> based on mix of religions grond motives that combined the greel > >>>> form-matter > >>>>> gm with the Christian. That's what the Reformation was for, out of > >> which > >>>> our > >>>>> rights grew, returning to the original truth in solo scriptura. > >>>>> > >>>>> At certain times the Catholic church was little more than a mob, > >>>> especially > >>>>> during the time of the Medici. There were many political motives > worked > >>>> out, > >>>>> and into the Catholic church. > >>>>> > >>>>> But this is a fair question Marha, and a serious one, thank you for > >>>> raising > >>>>> it. It is something I'd like to take the time to develop. > >>>>> > >>>>> I would suggest when you have time to look into Dooyeweerd as you > have > >>>> time. > >>>>> http://ciots.blogsome.com/ > >>>>> > >>>>> The idea of the Holy Roman Empire was derived from the pagan, > >>>> Aristotelian > >>>>> idea of the state which thought of it as a higher organization than > the > >>>>> other spheres. > >>>>> > >>>>> DW's idea of sphere sovereignty shows why this is flawed and doesn't > >> give > >>>>> priority to any of the spheres. > >>>>> > >>>>> But I would like to carefully discuss this idea of the origin of > human > >>>>> rights, and the political and social outcomes of both the Chrisitan > and > >> a > >>>>> moq world view. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Jon > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:27 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jon, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You prefer the philosophy of the Inquisition? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Marsha > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Marsha, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> When I consider the impact of German philosophy on the world, which > >>>>>>> culminated in Heideeger becoming a Nazi and using his philosophy to > >>>>>> justify > >>>>>>> and promote Hitler, I can only say with Solomon: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There is a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and > a > >>>> time > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>> dance; > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Eccl 3:4 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Laugh, Jon, laugh... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> MarshaV, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> German philosophers inhabit every > >>>>>>>>> moq post. It's in the lineage, the background, the very DNA of > moq. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> But your'e right, there is an antidote! But it's not at all a > >>>> pleasant > >>>>>>>>> process. You first have to go through the shock, stress and pain, > >> of > >>>>>>>>> withdrawal and detox. Then you'll need to find a good moq > anonymous > >>>>>>>> meeting > >>>>>>>>> and attend faithfully. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Jon > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 2:24 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Jon, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure somewhere there's an antidote for too many German > >>>>>> philosophers > >>>>>>>>>> listed in a single post. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Marsha > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:18 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> MarshaV, John, Ian and company, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> At some point I want to discuss the archetypes of this, and the > >>>>>>>> previous > >>>>>>>>>>> age. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> If you've looked at the link I posted by Tarnas, you'll see > that > >> he > >>>>>>>>>> refers > >>>>>>>>>>> to a certain nexus of interrelated ideas that are behind each > >> age. > >>>>>>>> These > >>>>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>> the metaphysical roots that P speaks of, and each age has them. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The interesting thing is when you look at them closely, it is > >> clear > >>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>> these ideas were originally derived from ideas, or > >> characteristics > >>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> God. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> This is most evident and easy to trace with Newton. He is > >>>> constantly > >>>>>>>>>> saying > >>>>>>>>>>> space is absolute, eternal, and uniform, because God is. He was > >>>> very > >>>>>>>>>> clear > >>>>>>>>>>> about this and intentionally thought this way as to understand > >> how > >>>>>> God > >>>>>>>>>>> worked in the world. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In any event, these ideas that were once thought of as aspects > of > >>>>>> God, > >>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> in a specific tradition, become the archetypes, the core ideas > of > >>>>>>>>>>> mechanistic physics. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Not only this, these same ideas are then imputed to all other > >>>> realms > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> thought and cultural expression. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> This is also true with modern physics. Ever read the Tao of > >>>> Physics, > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>> Capra's, The Turning Point. He shows meticulously how the ideas > >> in > >>>>>>>>>> physics, > >>>>>>>>>>> classical and modern, were spread to other areas of thought. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In both cases, these archetypal ideas can be traced back to > >>>> theology, > >>>>>>>>>> even > >>>>>>>>>>> in a secular or non religious age, or even once they take on > new, > >>>> non > >>>>>>>>>>> religious meanings. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The archetypes behind quantum physics and relativity and even > >>>>>>>> complexity > >>>>>>>>>>> science like wise can be traced back to philosophy and > theology. > >>>> You > >>>>>>>> can > >>>>>>>>>>> trace it back to when Hegel wanted to combine the ideas of the > >>>> finite > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> the infinite, the Creator and the creation. This was an > >> intentional > >>>>>>>> move > >>>>>>>>>> by > >>>>>>>>>>> Hegel and other of the German Idealist philosophers that > followed > >>>>>> him, > >>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> this influence was likewise felt on the Romantic poets. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I know this is but a broad outline, but Hegel and most of the > >>>>>> Idealist > >>>>>>>>>>> philosophers were trained as theologians, and their philosophy > >>>>>>>>>> deliberately > >>>>>>>>>>> incorporated theological ideas, and these subsequently > influenced > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> course > >>>>>>>>>>> of science, as it did the whole of the culture. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hegel's influence in this shift was the Greeks whom he > idealized. > >>>> And > >>>>>> I > >>>>>>>>>>> believe you can trace the moq back to this turning point in > >> Western > >>>>>>>>>> thought, > >>>>>>>>>>> which might be described as the easternization of the West. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> There's an interesting chapter in Alan Blooms, The Closing of > the > >>>>>>>>>> AMerican > >>>>>>>>>>> Mind, called the German connection, which also makes this > >>>> connection > >>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>>> the sixties culture and high German philosophy. And there is > also > >> a > >>>>>>>>>>> connection of German philosophy with Eastern mysticism, as well > >> as > >>>>>>>> Greek > >>>>>>>>>>> thought. But the trend form Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, that > leads > >>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>> Nietzsche and then Heidegger, is the trend that Pirsig swims > in. > >>>> Did > >>>>>> he > >>>>>>>>>> take > >>>>>>>>>>> it furhter than the rest, I'm not sure yet. But he is in this > >> very > >>>>>> same > >>>>>>>>>>> lineage which was begun by theologians considering the nature > of > >>>> God. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jon > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM, John Carl < > >> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "dropped" Marsha, I can take your meaning two > >>>> differing > >>>>>>>>>> ways: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to agree that the terms God/Creator/Designer should be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> dropped as 'a relic of an evil social suppression of > >> intellectual > >>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic freedom.' > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The first way of "dropped" is the way we drop a belief in > Santa > >>>>>> Claus > >>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>>> grow older and more sophisticated. An adult realization. I > >>>> dropped > >>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>> belief in Santa Claus when I was around ten. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The second possible meaning I can think of is dropped > >> completely, > >>>>>> like > >>>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>>>>> even teaching kids about Santa Clause in the first place. > >>>> Expunging > >>>>>>>> him > >>>>>>>>>>>> from our social memories. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean God should be dropped completely from the world's > >>>> ideas? > >>>>>>>> Or > >>>>>>>>>> do > >>>>>>>>>>>> you mean on an individual level where a child develops an idea > >> of > >>>>>> his > >>>>>>>>>> own > >>>>>>>>>>>> mind and worth by his/her overcoming the belief in God? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Or Santa Claus, for that matter. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> If you get my question, let me know your answer, or if not one > >> of > >>>>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>> two > >>>>>>>>>>>> interpretations, some other way of dropping God. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Like, "OOps. I just dropped your God. I hope He didn't > break." > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> John the God breaker > >>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ___ > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ___ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ___ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>> > >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>> Archives: > >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ___ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>> Archives: > >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>> > >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>> Archives: > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
