Jon, Sorry Jon, I could have been considered just as rude to not respond at all. I guess I made the wrong choice.
Marsha On Apr 26, 2010, at 2:38 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > Marsha, > Why bother to tell me what you don't want to discuss unless it is kind of > personal one-upmanship that motivates you. > > It does not surprise me that you are unwilling to explore the facts, and are > comfortable with your own biases. > > And it certainly does not bring me agony but is a blessed relief. > > Jon > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:20 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Hello Jon, >> >> To lessen the agony, I will tell you that I have no interest in discussing >> theism, God, Moses, Jesus, Zeus, or any of the men who wrote the >> various versions of the bible. Sorry, but not interested... >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> >>> Many call themselves, or claim to be Christians who do not follow the >>> teachings of Christ. >>> >>> So here is an important distinction to keep in mind. Many of the >> atrocities >>> of >>> atheist regimes are in perfect harmony with their basic assumptions. The >>> Witch burnings, and Inquisition were counter to Biblical teaching. >>> >>> In fact, they did have their origin in Neoplatonic thought which sought >> to >>> liberate the soul from the body, to save the soul. This is not a Biblical >> or >>> Christian teaching!!! I don't care who does it or what they call >> themselves. >>> I am saying a Biblical world view is the origin of human rights in the >> West, >>> and their enshrinement in law. >>> >>> In the case of Heidegger, he explicitly applied his philosophy to justify >>> Hitler and the Nazi regime! It was in perfect agreement, and fulfillment >> of >>> his thought. This is a major difference. >>> >>> Likewise, he saw the crisis in philosophy as one and the same with the >>> crisis in Western Europe, and he saw his philosophy, and the German state >> as >>> the fulfillment and answer to that crisis. >>> >>> And he also saw great parallels with Greek language and philosophy and >>> German language and philosophy. >>> And if you look at Greek philosophy and Greek politics you will not find >> the >>> freedom and rights we have. You will find slavery, oppression of women, >> and >>> warfare between and among the city states. The average Greek died at age >> 25 >>> because of this unrest, and even at its height the Golden age of Greece >>> lasted only 50 years. >>> >>> But show me where the Inquisition is taught in the Bible, or the burning >> of >>> witches. In the Inquisition it was Christians who were tortured too!!! >>> Remember the Pit and the Pendulum, it was a Protestant under the >> Pendulum! >>> This fictional story is correct in this aspect >>> >>> Are you making the belief of the victims the cause of the crime? The >>> Catholic Church likewise persecuted the reformers, burning Tyndale, and >>> others at the stake for trying to translate the Bible so the common folk >>> could read it. It was this long tortuous struggle for religious reform >> in >>> the West that led to religious freedom, upon which all the rest of our >>> freedoms rest. >>> >>> I am not speaking about the goodness of man, but the goodness of a >> specific >>> belief system. And if you are one that thinks man is basically good, and >> you >>> don't believe in God, then who commit >>> ted these atrocities throughout history, the ones you and I mention??? It >>> had to be man in all his natural goodness! >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Jon, >>>> >>>> If you want to connect German philosophy with the Nazis, I get to >> connect >>>> Christian philosophy with the Inquisition. And just to refresh your >> memory >>>> patterns, the Northern European Protestant-Christians burned more >> "witches" >>>> then their southern Catholic-Christian counterpart. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>> >>>>> Apples and organges. I did not say I was a Catholic. The Catholic >> church >>>> was >>>>> based on mix of religions grond motives that combined the greel >>>> form-matter >>>>> gm with the Christian. That's what the Reformation was for, out of >> which >>>> our >>>>> rights grew, returning to the original truth in solo scriptura. >>>>> >>>>> At certain times the Catholic church was little more than a mob, >>>> especially >>>>> during the time of the Medici. There were many political motives worked >>>> out, >>>>> and into the Catholic church. >>>>> >>>>> But this is a fair question Marha, and a serious one, thank you for >>>> raising >>>>> it. It is something I'd like to take the time to develop. >>>>> >>>>> I would suggest when you have time to look into Dooyeweerd as you have >>>> time. >>>>> http://ciots.blogsome.com/ >>>>> >>>>> The idea of the Holy Roman Empire was derived from the pagan, >>>> Aristotelian >>>>> idea of the state which thought of it as a higher organization than the >>>>> other spheres. >>>>> >>>>> DW's idea of sphere sovereignty shows why this is flawed and doesn't >> give >>>>> priority to any of the spheres. >>>>> >>>>> But I would like to carefully discuss this idea of the origin of human >>>>> rights, and the political and social outcomes of both the Chrisitan and >> a >>>>> moq world view. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:27 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jon, >>>>>> >>>>>> You prefer the philosophy of the Inquisition? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I consider the impact of German philosophy on the world, which >>>>>>> culminated in Heideeger becoming a Nazi and using his philosophy to >>>>>> justify >>>>>>> and promote Hitler, I can only say with Solomon: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a >>>> time >>>>>> to >>>>>>> dance; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Eccl 3:4 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Laugh, Jon, laugh... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> MarshaV, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> German philosophers inhabit every >>>>>>>>> moq post. It's in the lineage, the background, the very DNA of moq. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But your'e right, there is an antidote! But it's not at all a >>>> pleasant >>>>>>>>> process. You first have to go through the shock, stress and pain, >> of >>>>>>>>> withdrawal and detox. Then you'll need to find a good moq anonymous >>>>>>>> meeting >>>>>>>>> and attend faithfully. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 2:24 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jon, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure somewhere there's an antidote for too many German >>>>>> philosophers >>>>>>>>>> listed in a single post. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:18 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> MarshaV, John, Ian and company, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> At some point I want to discuss the archetypes of this, and the >>>>>>>> previous >>>>>>>>>>> age. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If you've looked at the link I posted by Tarnas, you'll see that >> he >>>>>>>>>> refers >>>>>>>>>>> to a certain nexus of interrelated ideas that are behind each >> age. >>>>>>>> These >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> the metaphysical roots that P speaks of, and each age has them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The interesting thing is when you look at them closely, it is >> clear >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> these ideas were originally derived from ideas, or >> characteristics >>>> of >>>>>>>>>> God. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is most evident and easy to trace with Newton. He is >>>> constantly >>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>> space is absolute, eternal, and uniform, because God is. He was >>>> very >>>>>>>>>> clear >>>>>>>>>>> about this and intentionally thought this way as to understand >> how >>>>>> God >>>>>>>>>>> worked in the world. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In any event, these ideas that were once thought of as aspects of >>>>>> God, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> in a specific tradition, become the archetypes, the core ideas of >>>>>>>>>>> mechanistic physics. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Not only this, these same ideas are then imputed to all other >>>> realms >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> thought and cultural expression. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is also true with modern physics. Ever read the Tao of >>>> Physics, >>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> Capra's, The Turning Point. He shows meticulously how the ideas >> in >>>>>>>>>> physics, >>>>>>>>>>> classical and modern, were spread to other areas of thought. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In both cases, these archetypal ideas can be traced back to >>>> theology, >>>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>>> in a secular or non religious age, or even once they take on new, >>>> non >>>>>>>>>>> religious meanings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The archetypes behind quantum physics and relativity and even >>>>>>>> complexity >>>>>>>>>>> science like wise can be traced back to philosophy and theology. >>>> You >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> trace it back to when Hegel wanted to combine the ideas of the >>>> finite >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the infinite, the Creator and the creation. This was an >> intentional >>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> Hegel and other of the German Idealist philosophers that followed >>>>>> him, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> this influence was likewise felt on the Romantic poets. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know this is but a broad outline, but Hegel and most of the >>>>>> Idealist >>>>>>>>>>> philosophers were trained as theologians, and their philosophy >>>>>>>>>> deliberately >>>>>>>>>>> incorporated theological ideas, and these subsequently influenced >>>> the >>>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>>>> of science, as it did the whole of the culture. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hegel's influence in this shift was the Greeks whom he idealized. >>>> And >>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> believe you can trace the moq back to this turning point in >> Western >>>>>>>>>> thought, >>>>>>>>>>> which might be described as the easternization of the West. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There's an interesting chapter in Alan Blooms, The Closing of the >>>>>>>>>> AMerican >>>>>>>>>>> Mind, called the German connection, which also makes this >>>> connection >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> the sixties culture and high German philosophy. And there is also >> a >>>>>>>>>>> connection of German philosophy with Eastern mysticism, as well >> as >>>>>>>> Greek >>>>>>>>>>> thought. But the trend form Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, that leads >>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> Nietzsche and then Heidegger, is the trend that Pirsig swims in. >>>> Did >>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>>> it furhter than the rest, I'm not sure yet. But he is in this >> very >>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> lineage which was begun by theologians considering the nature of >>>> God. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM, John Carl < >> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "dropped" Marsha, I can take your meaning two >>>> differing >>>>>>>>>> ways: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to agree that the terms God/Creator/Designer should be >>>>>>>>>>>>> dropped as 'a relic of an evil social suppression of >> intellectual >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic freedom.' >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The first way of "dropped" is the way we drop a belief in Santa >>>>>> Claus >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> grow older and more sophisticated. An adult realization. I >>>> dropped >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> belief in Santa Claus when I was around ten. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The second possible meaning I can think of is dropped >> completely, >>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> even teaching kids about Santa Clause in the first place. >>>> Expunging >>>>>>>> him >>>>>>>>>>>> from our social memories. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean God should be dropped completely from the world's >>>> ideas? >>>>>>>> Or >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> you mean on an individual level where a child develops an idea >> of >>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>> mind and worth by his/her overcoming the belief in God? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Or Santa Claus, for that matter. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you get my question, let me know your answer, or if not one >> of >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>>>>>> interpretations, some other way of dropping God. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Like, "OOps. I just dropped your God. I hope He didn't break." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> John the God breaker >>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ___ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
