Hello Jon, To lessen the agony, I will tell you that I have no interest in discussing theism, God, Moses, Jesus, Zeus, or any of the men who wrote the various versions of the bible. Sorry, but not interested... Marsha
On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > Marsha, > > Many call themselves, or claim to be Christians who do not follow the > teachings of Christ. > > So here is an important distinction to keep in mind. Many of the atrocities > of > atheist regimes are in perfect harmony with their basic assumptions. The > Witch burnings, and Inquisition were counter to Biblical teaching. > > In fact, they did have their origin in Neoplatonic thought which sought to > liberate the soul from the body, to save the soul. This is not a Biblical or > Christian teaching!!! I don't care who does it or what they call themselves. > I am saying a Biblical world view is the origin of human rights in the West, > and their enshrinement in law. > > In the case of Heidegger, he explicitly applied his philosophy to justify > Hitler and the Nazi regime! It was in perfect agreement, and fulfillment of > his thought. This is a major difference. > > Likewise, he saw the crisis in philosophy as one and the same with the > crisis in Western Europe, and he saw his philosophy, and the German state as > the fulfillment and answer to that crisis. > > And he also saw great parallels with Greek language and philosophy and > German language and philosophy. > And if you look at Greek philosophy and Greek politics you will not find the > freedom and rights we have. You will find slavery, oppression of women, and > warfare between and among the city states. The average Greek died at age 25 > because of this unrest, and even at its height the Golden age of Greece > lasted only 50 years. > > But show me where the Inquisition is taught in the Bible, or the burning of > witches. In the Inquisition it was Christians who were tortured too!!! > Remember the Pit and the Pendulum, it was a Protestant under the Pendulum! > This fictional story is correct in this aspect > > Are you making the belief of the victims the cause of the crime? The > Catholic Church likewise persecuted the reformers, burning Tyndale, and > others at the stake for trying to translate the Bible so the common folk > could read it. It was this long tortuous struggle for religious reform in > the West that led to religious freedom, upon which all the rest of our > freedoms rest. > > I am not speaking about the goodness of man, but the goodness of a specific > belief system. And if you are one that thinks man is basically good, and you > don't believe in God, then who commit > ted these atrocities throughout history, the ones you and I mention??? It > had to be man in all his natural goodness! > > Jon > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Jon, >> >> If you want to connect German philosophy with the Nazis, I get to connect >> Christian philosophy with the Inquisition. And just to refresh your memory >> patterns, the Northern European Protestant-Christians burned more "witches" >> then their southern Catholic-Christian counterpart. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: >> >>> Apples and organges. I did not say I was a Catholic. The Catholic church >> was >>> based on mix of religions grond motives that combined the greel >> form-matter >>> gm with the Christian. That's what the Reformation was for, out of which >> our >>> rights grew, returning to the original truth in solo scriptura. >>> >>> At certain times the Catholic church was little more than a mob, >> especially >>> during the time of the Medici. There were many political motives worked >> out, >>> and into the Catholic church. >>> >>> But this is a fair question Marha, and a serious one, thank you for >> raising >>> it. It is something I'd like to take the time to develop. >>> >>> I would suggest when you have time to look into Dooyeweerd as you have >> time. >>> http://ciots.blogsome.com/ >>> >>> The idea of the Holy Roman Empire was derived from the pagan, >> Aristotelian >>> idea of the state which thought of it as a higher organization than the >>> other spheres. >>> >>> DW's idea of sphere sovereignty shows why this is flawed and doesn't give >>> priority to any of the spheres. >>> >>> But I would like to carefully discuss this idea of the origin of human >>> rights, and the political and social outcomes of both the Chrisitan and a >>> moq world view. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:27 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Jon, >>>> >>>> You prefer the philosophy of the Inquisition? >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>> >>>>> Marsha, >>>>> >>>>> When I consider the impact of German philosophy on the world, which >>>>> culminated in Heideeger becoming a Nazi and using his philosophy to >>>> justify >>>>> and promote Hitler, I can only say with Solomon: >>>>> >>>>> There is a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a >> time >>>> to >>>>> dance; >>>>> >>>>> Eccl 3:4 >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Laugh, Jon, laugh... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> MarshaV, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> German philosophers inhabit every >>>>>>> moq post. It's in the lineage, the background, the very DNA of moq. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But your'e right, there is an antidote! But it's not at all a >> pleasant >>>>>>> process. You first have to go through the shock, stress and pain, of >>>>>>> withdrawal and detox. Then you'll need to find a good moq anonymous >>>>>> meeting >>>>>>> and attend faithfully. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 2:24 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jon, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure somewhere there's an antidote for too many German >>>> philosophers >>>>>>>> listed in a single post. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:18 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> MarshaV, John, Ian and company, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At some point I want to discuss the archetypes of this, and the >>>>>> previous >>>>>>>>> age. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you've looked at the link I posted by Tarnas, you'll see that he >>>>>>>> refers >>>>>>>>> to a certain nexus of interrelated ideas that are behind each age. >>>>>> These >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> the metaphysical roots that P speaks of, and each age has them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The interesting thing is when you look at them closely, it is clear >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> these ideas were originally derived from ideas, or characteristics >> of >>>>>>>> God. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is most evident and easy to trace with Newton. He is >> constantly >>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>> space is absolute, eternal, and uniform, because God is. He was >> very >>>>>>>> clear >>>>>>>>> about this and intentionally thought this way as to understand how >>>> God >>>>>>>>> worked in the world. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In any event, these ideas that were once thought of as aspects of >>>> God, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> in a specific tradition, become the archetypes, the core ideas of >>>>>>>>> mechanistic physics. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Not only this, these same ideas are then imputed to all other >> realms >>>> of >>>>>>>>> thought and cultural expression. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is also true with modern physics. Ever read the Tao of >> Physics, >>>> or >>>>>>>>> Capra's, The Turning Point. He shows meticulously how the ideas in >>>>>>>> physics, >>>>>>>>> classical and modern, were spread to other areas of thought. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In both cases, these archetypal ideas can be traced back to >> theology, >>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>> in a secular or non religious age, or even once they take on new, >> non >>>>>>>>> religious meanings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The archetypes behind quantum physics and relativity and even >>>>>> complexity >>>>>>>>> science like wise can be traced back to philosophy and theology. >> You >>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> trace it back to when Hegel wanted to combine the ideas of the >> finite >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the infinite, the Creator and the creation. This was an intentional >>>>>> move >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> Hegel and other of the German Idealist philosophers that followed >>>> him, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> this influence was likewise felt on the Romantic poets. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know this is but a broad outline, but Hegel and most of the >>>> Idealist >>>>>>>>> philosophers were trained as theologians, and their philosophy >>>>>>>> deliberately >>>>>>>>> incorporated theological ideas, and these subsequently influenced >> the >>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>> of science, as it did the whole of the culture. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hegel's influence in this shift was the Greeks whom he idealized. >> And >>>> I >>>>>>>>> believe you can trace the moq back to this turning point in Western >>>>>>>> thought, >>>>>>>>> which might be described as the easternization of the West. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There's an interesting chapter in Alan Blooms, The Closing of the >>>>>>>> AMerican >>>>>>>>> Mind, called the German connection, which also makes this >> connection >>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the sixties culture and high German philosophy. And there is also a >>>>>>>>> connection of German philosophy with Eastern mysticism, as well as >>>>>> Greek >>>>>>>>> thought. But the trend form Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, that leads >> to >>>>>>>>> Nietzsche and then Heidegger, is the trend that Pirsig swims in. >> Did >>>> he >>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>> it furhter than the rest, I'm not sure yet. But he is in this very >>>> same >>>>>>>>> lineage which was begun by theologians considering the nature of >> God. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM, John Carl <[email protected] >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When you say "dropped" Marsha, I can take your meaning two >> differing >>>>>>>> ways: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I tend to agree that the terms God/Creator/Designer should be >>>>>>>>>>> dropped as 'a relic of an evil social suppression of intellectual >>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic freedom.' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The first way of "dropped" is the way we drop a belief in Santa >>>> Claus >>>>>> as >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> grow older and more sophisticated. An adult realization. I >> dropped >>>> a >>>>>>>>>> belief in Santa Claus when I was around ten. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The second possible meaning I can think of is dropped completely, >>>> like >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> even teaching kids about Santa Clause in the first place. >> Expunging >>>>>> him >>>>>>>>>> from our social memories. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you mean God should be dropped completely from the world's >> ideas? >>>>>> Or >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> you mean on an individual level where a child develops an idea of >>>> his >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> mind and worth by his/her overcoming the belief in God? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Or Santa Claus, for that matter. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you get my question, let me know your answer, or if not one of >>>>>> these >>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>>>> interpretations, some other way of dropping God. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Like, "OOps. I just dropped your God. I hope He didn't break." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John the God breaker >>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ___ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
