Hi Jon, I've read the book, and watched many, many times the movie Mindwalk which was based on The Turning Point. It's a great movie! I bought a bunch of copies to give away. Great movie! Great movie! I wish they'd release a DVD version. Marsha
On Apr 26, 2010, at 5:53 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > Sorry If I was rude in my response. I do also have a great interest in > physics, classical and quantum, and their theological roots. > > If you like physics, and haven't read Caprs's The Turning Point, you should > check it out. I think I can find a link online to the entire work. > > Capra identifies the archetypal ideas of modern physics as similar to those > of the I Ching. Or rather he uses the yin and yang archetypes to explain the > archetypal ideas behind classical and quantum physics. > > Take care, > Jon > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 3:50 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Jon, >> Sorry Jon, I could have been considered just as rude to not >> respond at all. I guess I made the wrong choice. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2010, at 2:38 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> Why bother to tell me what you don't want to discuss unless it is kind of >>> personal one-upmanship that motivates you. >>> >>> It does not surprise me that you are unwilling to explore the facts, and >> are >>> comfortable with your own biases. >>> >>> And it certainly does not bring me agony but is a blessed relief. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:20 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hello Jon, >>>> >>>> To lessen the agony, I will tell you that I have no interest in >> discussing >>>> theism, God, Moses, Jesus, Zeus, or any of the men who wrote the >>>> various versions of the bible. Sorry, but not interested... >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>> >>>>> Marsha, >>>>> >>>>> Many call themselves, or claim to be Christians who do not follow the >>>>> teachings of Christ. >>>>> >>>>> So here is an important distinction to keep in mind. Many of the >>>> atrocities >>>>> of >>>>> atheist regimes are in perfect harmony with their basic assumptions. >> The >>>>> Witch burnings, and Inquisition were counter to Biblical teaching. >>>>> >>>>> In fact, they did have their origin in Neoplatonic thought which sought >>>> to >>>>> liberate the soul from the body, to save the soul. This is not a >> Biblical >>>> or >>>>> Christian teaching!!! I don't care who does it or what they call >>>> themselves. >>>>> I am saying a Biblical world view is the origin of human rights in the >>>> West, >>>>> and their enshrinement in law. >>>>> >>>>> In the case of Heidegger, he explicitly applied his philosophy to >> justify >>>>> Hitler and the Nazi regime! It was in perfect agreement, and >> fulfillment >>>> of >>>>> his thought. This is a major difference. >>>>> >>>>> Likewise, he saw the crisis in philosophy as one and the same with the >>>>> crisis in Western Europe, and he saw his philosophy, and the German >> state >>>> as >>>>> the fulfillment and answer to that crisis. >>>>> >>>>> And he also saw great parallels with Greek language and philosophy and >>>>> German language and philosophy. >>>>> And if you look at Greek philosophy and Greek politics you will not >> find >>>> the >>>>> freedom and rights we have. You will find slavery, oppression of women, >>>> and >>>>> warfare between and among the city states. The average Greek died at >> age >>>> 25 >>>>> because of this unrest, and even at its height the Golden age of Greece >>>>> lasted only 50 years. >>>>> >>>>> But show me where the Inquisition is taught in the Bible, or the >> burning >>>> of >>>>> witches. In the Inquisition it was Christians who were tortured too!!! >>>>> Remember the Pit and the Pendulum, it was a Protestant under the >>>> Pendulum! >>>>> This fictional story is correct in this aspect >>>>> >>>>> Are you making the belief of the victims the cause of the crime? The >>>>> Catholic Church likewise persecuted the reformers, burning Tyndale, and >>>>> others at the stake for trying to translate the Bible so the common >> folk >>>>> could read it. It was this long tortuous struggle for religious reform >>>> in >>>>> the West that led to religious freedom, upon which all the rest of our >>>>> freedoms rest. >>>>> >>>>> I am not speaking about the goodness of man, but the goodness of a >>>> specific >>>>> belief system. And if you are one that thinks man is basically good, >> and >>>> you >>>>> don't believe in God, then who commit >>>>> ted these atrocities throughout history, the ones you and I mention??? >> It >>>>> had to be man in all his natural goodness! >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:35 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jon, >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want to connect German philosophy with the Nazis, I get to >>>> connect >>>>>> Christian philosophy with the Inquisition. And just to refresh your >>>> memory >>>>>> patterns, the Northern European Protestant-Christians burned more >>>> "witches" >>>>>> then their southern Catholic-Christian counterpart. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Apples and organges. I did not say I was a Catholic. The Catholic >>>> church >>>>>> was >>>>>>> based on mix of religions grond motives that combined the greel >>>>>> form-matter >>>>>>> gm with the Christian. That's what the Reformation was for, out of >>>> which >>>>>> our >>>>>>> rights grew, returning to the original truth in solo scriptura. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At certain times the Catholic church was little more than a mob, >>>>>> especially >>>>>>> during the time of the Medici. There were many political motives >> worked >>>>>> out, >>>>>>> and into the Catholic church. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But this is a fair question Marha, and a serious one, thank you for >>>>>> raising >>>>>>> it. It is something I'd like to take the time to develop. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would suggest when you have time to look into Dooyeweerd as you >> have >>>>>> time. >>>>>>> http://ciots.blogsome.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The idea of the Holy Roman Empire was derived from the pagan, >>>>>> Aristotelian >>>>>>> idea of the state which thought of it as a higher organization than >> the >>>>>>> other spheres. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DW's idea of sphere sovereignty shows why this is flawed and doesn't >>>> give >>>>>>> priority to any of the spheres. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I would like to carefully discuss this idea of the origin of >> human >>>>>>> rights, and the political and social outcomes of both the Chrisitan >> and >>>> a >>>>>>> moq world view. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:27 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jon, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You prefer the philosophy of the Inquisition? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When I consider the impact of German philosophy on the world, which >>>>>>>>> culminated in Heideeger becoming a Nazi and using his philosophy to >>>>>>>> justify >>>>>>>>> and promote Hitler, I can only say with Solomon: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and >> a >>>>>> time >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> dance; >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Eccl 3:4 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Laugh, Jon, laugh... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> MarshaV, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> German philosophers inhabit every >>>>>>>>>>> moq post. It's in the lineage, the background, the very DNA of >> moq. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But your'e right, there is an antidote! But it's not at all a >>>>>> pleasant >>>>>>>>>>> process. You first have to go through the shock, stress and pain, >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> withdrawal and detox. Then you'll need to find a good moq >> anonymous >>>>>>>>>> meeting >>>>>>>>>>> and attend faithfully. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 2:24 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jon, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure somewhere there's an antidote for too many German >>>>>>>> philosophers >>>>>>>>>>>> listed in a single post. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:18 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> MarshaV, John, Ian and company, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> At some point I want to discuss the archetypes of this, and the >>>>>>>>>> previous >>>>>>>>>>>>> age. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you've looked at the link I posted by Tarnas, you'll see >> that >>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>> refers >>>>>>>>>>>>> to a certain nexus of interrelated ideas that are behind each >>>> age. >>>>>>>>>> These >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> the metaphysical roots that P speaks of, and each age has them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The interesting thing is when you look at them closely, it is >>>> clear >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> these ideas were originally derived from ideas, or >>>> characteristics >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> God. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is most evident and easy to trace with Newton. He is >>>>>> constantly >>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>> space is absolute, eternal, and uniform, because God is. He was >>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>>> clear >>>>>>>>>>>>> about this and intentionally thought this way as to understand >>>> how >>>>>>>> God >>>>>>>>>>>>> worked in the world. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In any event, these ideas that were once thought of as aspects >> of >>>>>>>> God, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> in a specific tradition, become the archetypes, the core ideas >> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanistic physics. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not only this, these same ideas are then imputed to all other >>>>>> realms >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought and cultural expression. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is also true with modern physics. Ever read the Tao of >>>>>> Physics, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> Capra's, The Turning Point. He shows meticulously how the ideas >>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> physics, >>>>>>>>>>>>> classical and modern, were spread to other areas of thought. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In both cases, these archetypal ideas can be traced back to >>>>>> theology, >>>>>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>>>>> in a secular or non religious age, or even once they take on >> new, >>>>>> non >>>>>>>>>>>>> religious meanings. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The archetypes behind quantum physics and relativity and even >>>>>>>>>> complexity >>>>>>>>>>>>> science like wise can be traced back to philosophy and >> theology. >>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> trace it back to when Hegel wanted to combine the ideas of the >>>>>> finite >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the infinite, the Creator and the creation. This was an >>>> intentional >>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel and other of the German Idealist philosophers that >> followed >>>>>>>> him, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> this influence was likewise felt on the Romantic poets. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know this is but a broad outline, but Hegel and most of the >>>>>>>> Idealist >>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophers were trained as theologians, and their philosophy >>>>>>>>>>>> deliberately >>>>>>>>>>>>> incorporated theological ideas, and these subsequently >> influenced >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>>>>>> of science, as it did the whole of the culture. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel's influence in this shift was the Greeks whom he >> idealized. >>>>>> And >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe you can trace the moq back to this turning point in >>>> Western >>>>>>>>>>>> thought, >>>>>>>>>>>>> which might be described as the easternization of the West. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There's an interesting chapter in Alan Blooms, The Closing of >> the >>>>>>>>>>>> AMerican >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mind, called the German connection, which also makes this >>>>>> connection >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> the sixties culture and high German philosophy. And there is >> also >>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> connection of German philosophy with Eastern mysticism, as well >>>> as >>>>>>>>>> Greek >>>>>>>>>>>>> thought. But the trend form Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, that >> leads >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nietzsche and then Heidegger, is the trend that Pirsig swims >> in. >>>>>> Did >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>>>>> it furhter than the rest, I'm not sure yet. But he is in this >>>> very >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>> lineage which was begun by theologians considering the nature >> of >>>>>> God. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM, John Carl < >>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "dropped" Marsha, I can take your meaning two >>>>>> differing >>>>>>>>>>>> ways: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to agree that the terms God/Creator/Designer should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dropped as 'a relic of an evil social suppression of >>>> intellectual >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic freedom.' >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first way of "dropped" is the way we drop a belief in >> Santa >>>>>>>> Claus >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> grow older and more sophisticated. An adult realization. I >>>>>> dropped >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief in Santa Claus when I was around ten. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second possible meaning I can think of is dropped >>>> completely, >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> even teaching kids about Santa Clause in the first place. >>>>>> Expunging >>>>>>>>>> him >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from our social memories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean God should be dropped completely from the world's >>>>>> ideas? >>>>>>>>>> Or >>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you mean on an individual level where a child develops an idea >>>> of >>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind and worth by his/her overcoming the belief in God? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or Santa Claus, for that matter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you get my question, let me know your answer, or if not one >>>> of >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interpretations, some other way of dropping God. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like, "OOps. I just dropped your God. I hope He didn't >> break." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John the God breaker >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ___ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
