date:20090223

I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in anything
like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone is talking
about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any fans.

However something else that is differentiated from current so called
capitalism or communism or any other type of ism would be desirable.

No what I am talking about doesn't have a name but it is more social and so
does sound a bit like socialism.
And though I am talking about my own concept that I have developed I am sure
that others when they speak positively about socialism have something much
more like what I have in mind than anything resembling socialism.

Rather I think that your remark is more of a troll as I believe you know
that full well.

The relative success of democrats/left/liberals as leaders of countries and
of developers of businesses as already mentioned is what is meant not
anything resembling communism.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Rick Monteverde r...@highsurf.com wrote:

 This is a troll, right?

 Glorious examples of Socialism's successes please?

 Thought so.

 -Original Message-
 From: grok [mailto:g...@resist.ca]
 Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:05 AM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1


 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the
 barricade and roared out:

  With regard to both energy and the economy those bumper stickers should
 ask:
  Where is John Galt when we need him?
 
  Ayn Rand gave us John Galt in fiction. Reality hands us Bernie Madoff.
  No one does more harm to capitalism than capitalists.
 
  - Jed

 I really hate to break this to people here, but the future has *always*
 been
 with Socialism -- and that includes our glorious energy future as well.
 And some people can rant against this all they want, invoking their rabid
 individualist ideology or whatever -- but that doesn't make what I've
 just
 said any the less necessary as what we must aim for.

 And we can seetoday, too, where individualism(sic) gets us, for that
 matter...


 - -- grok.






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Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:

 I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in
 anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone
 is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any
 fans.

List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality
doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. You're just
regurgitating decades of brainwashing, AFAIC. Doesn't make what you say
the least true. So what if millions of [ex-]middle-class suburban
drones agree with you? They're grasping at straws, right about now.
They'll believe anything in their (whipped-up) hysteria. Even fascism.
Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class,
actually...

You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits
of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your totalitarian
mass-propaganda media, for instance). And liberals and even neocon-
fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want, too:
your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of
production itself -- as the entire Planet has just found out, and can
clearly see for itself right now. 

'Atlantis' indeed...
Beam me up.


- -- grok.





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Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

2009-02-23 Thread Terry Blanton

Hey, you're right:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480239/

For a 2011 release date, it seems a bit early to start the ads, however.

Terry

On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM,  trevsta...@aol.com wrote:
 I read that Brad Pitt and Agela Jolie are huge fans of Atlas Shrugged
 and they have brought the rights to make the movie and will do so. That may
 be the reason for the bumper stickers.

  Trevor
 
 Need a job? Find an employment agency near you.

Re: [Vo]:I've been hammering away at the correspondence principle

2009-02-23 Thread fznidarsic


Do you have any thoughts or am I misrepresenting your concept? You say
Photons are formed when bits of the local field break away but would you
envisioning that a bit of the fabric of space may break away when the photon
does?

John Berry


My model is quite different than yours.? I have no aether.? My model is 
classical and at low energy,? It has no quarks, Higgs particles, or space 
fabric..

I do, owever, ask the same question as you.? What attaches the magnetic field 
to a magnet and what releases it to travel with the photon?? Superconductors 
have provided a clue.? The magnetic fields of superconductors tend to slip 
(travel).? Defects ( discontinuities ) are placed in the superconductor to 
prevent this slipping.? Following through with this logic discontinuities 
attach local fields and the quantum transition releases the grip of the 
discontinuity.

The link to cold fusion is the observables has enabled me to describe this 
process.

I hope something happes soon with these ideas.

Frank Z

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

Grok sez:

...

 You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits
 of capitalism

...

Seems to me that as the smoke cleared Grok roared loudly in his
efforts of coming off as an enlightened educated individual.

Ok, Grok, since it would appear that you wish to continue hiding
behind the handle of Michael Valentine Smith show us your stuff, water
brother. What's your ultimate solution?

It would help to be a tad more specific than simply giving us a pat
label, like socialism.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

[Vo]:disturbing the vacuum

John Berry wrote:

Hmmm, ok excuse me but I have not looked at your work before despite
being aware of it.

My own research is into the aether (or void as Frank Wilczek calls his
model of much the same spatial substance) has lead me to recognize
that by moving the aether and disturbing it sufficiently causes it to
break

The paper below was written by a team of physicists who replicated the
Bedini Machine. Having determined that it works, they speculate about
how, and where the energy comes from. I'm looking for people who can
carry on an intelligent conversation about this. Check out the author's
work on the Atomic Precision website.

_http://www.aias.us/documents/uft/a94thpaper.pdf_

Spin Connection Resonance in the Bedini Machine

from *overunity.com
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4515.msg113072.html#msg113072*:
This is a paper on a Bedini replication by doctorate level physicists.
They found that it worked as claimed. The physics have been worked out
to engineering level. It is overunity and it does not violate
conservation of energy. *Spin Connection Resonance in the Bedini Machine
http://www.aias.us/documents/uft/a94thpaper.pdf* - by Myron W. Evans
(Civil List Scientist, Treasury), H. Eckardt, C. Hubbard, J. Shelburne,
Alpha Institute for Advanced Studies (AIAS) ( *www.aias.us
http://www.aias.us/*, *www.atomicprecision.com/
http://www.atomicprecision.com/*)

I have been following Einstein Cartan Evans unified field theory for
over a year now. It is being widely accepted in the industrial physics
community of working scientists, but the academic community will not
accept it because it steps on some pet 20th century theories, I.E. no
black holes and no big bang, no need for dark energy or dark matter. It
explains all available empirical observations and experimental data for
any branch of physics in a 4d general relativity geometrical model, so
no need for extra dimensions or string theory ( which has never produced
anything useful anyway) . However ECE has been developed and tested with
super computers and is rigorously mathematically correct. All of the
well proven laws of classical and quantum physics are recovered as
special limits of ECE theory.

The kicker is that ECE predicts the ability to extract energy from space
time both gravitationally and electromagnetically thru spin resonance
connections. The physical laws involved are of the same mathematical
structure as the Coulomb, Ampere-Maxwell, Faraday and Gauss laws of
classical electrodynamics with added terms to define the spin connections.

The Bedini motor properly configured produces such a spin resonant
connection within the target battery itself. The battery self charges
from a spacetime connection. The motor simply produces the resonance
conditions necessary for this to take place, it does not supply charge
current to the battery.

..from *overunity.com
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4515.msg113072.html#msg113072*
Yes they replicated the Bedini patent plans. Understand that this is a
greater than 100% COP device, like a heat pump it requires energy input
from an isolated source to modulate a larger output from another
discrete source. Space time is the relativity theory term for this
source of primordial charge density that is an inherent property of the
universe. Other theories might call this Aether or Gamma and Beta
Atmospheres. The Bedini motor will not work if connected in a direct
loop to its own battery source. However it will charge multiple target
batteries which can then be used to power other devices as well as be
swapped out to run the motor. But the motor and charge circuits must be
isolated and the charger side is not grounded except through the
batteries in circuit. There is no earth ground involved.

---
the charge circuit is only over 100% COP over a very narrow range of
resonant interactions that actually occur within the battery itself. The
output loop and the battery form a resonant tank circuit. Adding any
external load will change the resonant condition. The charged battery
has to be removed from the charger circuit and utilized to drive a
separate discrete load to realize the gain.

---
Look at the Bedini circuit diagram. The output circuit is inductively
isolated from the input circuit. The circuit possesses all of the
characteristics of a simple RCL oscillator. The battery itself has
resistance capacitance and inductance properties. A gel cel is a lead
acid battery and for some reason the lead acid chemistry
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=420bd3048c51383467f4471499b96750topic=4515.40;topicseen#
lends itself to resonance connections in a practical relatively low
frequency range. That other battery chemistries don't work illustrates
the quirky nature of the physics involved. There would be a whole set of
different resonances for different materials, many of which would not
fall into practically achievable

Re: [Vo]:Ablation Cascade

2009-02-23 Thread Jed Rothwell


thomas malloy wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the previous discussions we have had 
about this matter, the strength of materials will have to increase 
by more than an order of magnitude in order to make the ribbon possible.


I do not know where it stands today. Edwards  Westling's book is 
from 2003. They point out, however, that you could make an orbital 
tower out of bubblegum if you made the base wide enough; I think it 
was roughly as wide as the U.S. So the question is not whether the 
ribbon is possible, but whether it is practical; i.e. narrow enough 
at the base to be lifted up into space, and reasonably inexpensive.


Page 21 - 25 describes Status of Carbon Nanotube Development. Some 
interesting points:


The theoretical limit to nanotube strength is around 300 gigapascals 
(GPa). That can hold 3,000,000 kg of a cable cross-section only 1 cm 
wide. Or to put it even closer to home you could lift a large car 
with a nanotube cable the size of an ordinary sewing thread.


Steel strength is 4.2 gig pascals; Kevlar is 3.6 GPa. The density of 
carbon nanotubes (1.3 g/cm3) is not only lower than steel (7.9 g/cm3) 
but also lower than its close cousins Kevlar (1.44 g/cm3) and 
graphite whiskers (2.0 g/cm3).


Strength and density together determine the cross-section of the 
cable at the earth end. That is, the taper.


Regarding actual results, Yu et al. (2000) measured nanotube strength 
varying from 11.2 to 64.3 GPa. But they made only small samples.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:disturbing the vacuum

2009-02-23 Thread Stephen A. Lawrence



thomas malloy wrote:

 
 The Bedini motor properly configured produces such a spin resonant
 connection within the target battery itself. The battery self charges
 from a spacetime connection. The motor simply produces the resonance
 conditions necessary for this to take place, it does not supply charge
 current to the battery.
 
 ...

 The Bedini motor will not work if connected in a direct
 loop to its own battery source. However it will charge multiple target
 batteries which can then be used to power other devices as well as be
 swapped out to run the motor. But the motor and charge circuits must be
 isolated and the charger side is not grounded except through the
 batteries in circuit.

A quick look at the linked paper, which contains a diagram of the B-M,
shows that it's apparently a magneto which is being used to pulse-charge
a lead-acid battery.  (Of course, I mean the kind of magneto which
provides the zap to the spark plug in old outboard motors, not the
Magneto that gave Professor X such interminable problems over the years.)

So, you start with a run down lead-acid battery and you pulse-charge it
and the result is that you get more out of it than you expected.  This
violates engineering rules of thumb right and left, since the rules
describing lead acid battery behavior were determined using uniform
low-rate charging, not pulse charging.

But rules of thumb are not physical laws, and the machine can't be run
closed-loop, of course, because the whole effect here is (presumably)
the consequence of pulse charging.

Lead acid batteries are wonderfully complex gadgets and the weird
consequences of pulse charging are well known, if not exactly well
understood.  You can buy gadgets that will do this, off the shelf, and
supposedly they'll make your batteries last longer and perform better.
IIRC they cost only a little more than ordinary battery chargers.  But,
they're not OU, and it seems pretty seriously unlikely that the B-M is
OU, either.

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?


grok wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:


I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in
anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone
is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any
fans.



List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality
doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. 


I really hate to break this to people here, but the future has *always*
been with Socialism -- 

Grok, You are, IMHO, either totally misguided, or one sick individual. socialism's agenda is the destruction of the individual. What I liked about Randian Philosophy was the celebration of the triumph of the individual against the collective. 


Even fascism.
Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class,
actually...

What you ignore is that fascism is socialism with private ownership. It 
is a more efficient production system, but it has no difference 
fundamentally between fascism and socialism. Both destroy the individual 
for the good of the collective.



You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits
of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your totalitarian
mass-propaganda media,

Calling the economic system in America and Britain  capitalism may fit 
with your agenda Grok, but the truth is that neither country has had 
free enterprise capitalism in the last 100 years.



for instance). And liberals and even neocon-
fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want, too:
your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of
production itself -- 

People have certain wants and needs, the limited amount of free 
enterprise that we have here meets those needs much better than the 
collectivized system that the Russians had.



as the entire Planet has just found out, and can
clearly see for itself right now. 

The entire planet is riddled with collectivism, where does this place 
where capitalism is practiced exist? What is it that the entire planet 
has found out? The fact that collectivism has failed every time it's 
been tried clearly isn't one of them.


This misguided idea is apparently the basis of your belief that America 
is particular is a bastion of free enterprise capitalism. You are right, 
we have a ruling elite, Oligarchy, which is promoting the sort of 
dystopia which Orwell and Huxley wrote about in 1984 and Brave New 
World. If you truely believe that this is a good thing, then you are 
indeed sick.




'Atlantis' indeed...Beam me up.


Another interesting comment. You may have heard that certain Christians 
believe that one of these days a trumpet is going to blow, and they are 
going to vanish. Well I'm one of them. That's why I'm not just too 
concerned about the world's continuing to deterioration. The main reason 
is that I've realized over the past 1/2 century that there's nothing I 
can do about it.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support
communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that
created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been so
dysfunctional as to then fall part.

So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and
oppression of humanity then say so.

There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive
examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most
places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being
just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to
recognize it.


On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1


 As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com
 mounted the barricade and roared out:

  I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in
  anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone
  is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any
  fans.

 List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality
 doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. You're just
 regurgitating decades of brainwashing, AFAIC. Doesn't make what you say
 the least true. So what if millions of [ex-]middle-class suburban
 drones agree with you? They're grasping at straws, right about now.
 They'll believe anything in their (whipped-up) hysteria. Even fascism.
 Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class,
 actually...

 You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits
 of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your totalitarian
 mass-propaganda media, for instance). And liberals and even neocon-
 fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want, too:
 your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of
 production itself -- as the entire Planet has just found out, and can
 clearly see for itself right now.

 'Atlantis' indeed...
 Beam me up.


 - -- grok.





 - --
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 s0+mR6D/6Se1RLbRTZ6bkxY=
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 -END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

2009-02-23 Thread Edmund Storms

I agree with John, However, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding  
about the difference between capitalism and socialism.


Capitalism works because it is designed to allow each person to make  
decisions based on their own self interest. This is called freedom by  
people who use simple descriptions. For this system to work properly,  
rules have to be agreed to that encourage individual decisions that  
benefit society in general, rather than just a few people.   
Unfortunately, over the years, the rules have been slowly changed by  
the rich and powerful. We now see the result of these changes.  We now  
need to restore the rules that have been lost. This is NOT socialism.


In contrast, socialism imposes rules that are independent of personal  
choice.  The rules force choices based on what the government wants.   
Some choices must be made at the top and this requirement operates  
without objection in all organizations and in various ways in all  
governments.  The challenge is to find an efficient mixture of  
freedom and controlled behavior.  Unfortunately, too many people in  
the US do not think clearly.  Consequently, compromises are made that  
only benefit people who have the largest self-interest to protect.
This is achieved by keeping the rest of society occupied by fighting  
among themselves over irrelevant issues like who is liberal or who is  
conservative, or by encouraging an attack of anything that is unwanted  
by calling it socialism.  If you want to know who is to blame, just  
look at what is written here many times by people who have no  
understanding about how the world works.


Regards,
Ed



On Feb 23, 2009, at 2:05 PM, John Berry wrote:

I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support  
communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing  
that created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred  
and been so dysfunctional as to then fall part.


So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the  
murder and oppression of humanity then say so.


There are many positive examples of something that could be termed  
positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care  
practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic  
version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch  
Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it.



On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:

 I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in
 anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what  
anyone
 is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have  
any

 fans.

List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality
doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. You're just
regurgitating decades of brainwashing, AFAIC. Doesn't make what you  
say

the least true. So what if millions of [ex-]middle-class suburban
drones agree with you? They're grasping at straws, right about now.
They'll believe anything in their (whipped-up) hysteria. Even fascism.
Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class,
actually...

You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real  
limits
of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your  
totalitarian

mass-propaganda media, for instance). And liberals and even neocon-
fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want,  
too:

your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of
production itself -- as the entire Planet has just found out, and can
clearly see for itself right now.

'Atlantis' indeed...
Beam me up.


- -- grok.





- --
*** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! ***
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[Vo]:OT - The Rapture

Hi Thomas:

...

Your recent response to Grok:

 Another interesting comment. You may have heard that
 certain Christians believe that one of these days a
 trumpet is going to blow, and they are going to
 vanish. Well I'm one of them. That's why I'm not just
 too concerned about the world's continuing to
 deterioration. The main reason is that I've realized
 over the past 1/2 century that there's nothing I
 can do about it.

I think you would really enjoy an obscure film titled The Rapture,
produced in 1991. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rapture_(film)

Actually, this film treats the biblical concept known as The Rapture
in what I thought was a realistic, even respectful manner. Granted, as
you may have also already surmised from our past conversations I don't
subscribe to this particular belief, but I'm glad I saw the film. I
would recommend it to others as a good think piece.

I think one of my main objections to the concept often described as
The Rapture is that for many it would seem to imply that there is
absolutely nothing any of us can do about the human condition, coming
Biblical Events.

There is often a Razor's Edge line between granting ourselves serenity
over what we are powerless to do anything about versus the courage to
change the things that we can. The distinction is learned through
wisdom. This is a profound lesson I'm still learning, and hopefully
will continue to learn till I take my last breath. It's also, as I'm
sure you are already aware, a major cornerstone of every 12-step
self-help program as each individual learns to surrender to a Higher
Power for which they are powerless against.

While I gather you believe you are one of them, one of the lucky few
who will suddenly vanish as The Rapture manifests across the planet
and takes you and hopefully all your cherished loved ones onwards to a
better place, I would hope you would find the time to ponder the
following:

What value and reward is a Spiritual Destination where one feels there
is nothing they can do about what is going to happen on this planet?
What value is a Spiritual Destination where one does not feel too
concerned about the world's continued deterioration, presumably
because their g_d will soon spirit them away miraculously from all
this earthly misery.

I'm puzzled, Thomas. What is your criteria for qualification for
rapture status? Surely you're not implying that someone who spends his
entire life and eventually dies trying to change the world to make it
a better place won't get raptured, particularly if he doesn't accept
what I presume are certain beliefs. I hasten to add here that I don't
want to put words in your mouth.

So, could you please elucidate me on this point if you would on how
you know you are going to get raptured while many of us, I presume,
you're not so sure about.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

I agree with Edmund ;)

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote:

 I agree with John, However, there seems to be a
 basic misunderstanding about the difference between capitalism and
 socialism.

 Capitalism works because it is designed to allow each person to make
 decisions based on their own self interest. This is called freedom by people
 who use simple descriptions. For this system to work properly, rules have to
 be agreed to that encourage individual decisions that benefit society in
 general, rather than just a few people.  Unfortunately, over the years, the
 rules have been slowly changed by the rich and powerful. We now see the
 result of these changes.  We now need to restore the rules that have been
 lost. This is NOT socialism.

 In contrast, socialism imposes rules that are independent of personal
 choice.  The rules force choices based on what the government wants.  Some
 choices must be made at the top and this requirement operates without
 objection in all organizations and in various ways in all governments.  The
 challenge is to find an efficient mixture of freedom and controlled
 behavior.  Unfortunately, too many people in the US do not think clearly.
  Consequently, compromises are made that only benefit people who have the
 largest self-interest to protect.   This is achieved by keeping the rest of
 society occupied by fighting among themselves over irrelevant issues like
 who is liberal or who is conservative, or by encouraging an attack of
 anything that is unwanted by calling it socialism.  If you want to know who
 is to blame, just look at what is written here many times by people who have
 no understanding about how the world works.

 Regards,
 Ed

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

2009-02-23 Thread mixent

In reply to  John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:05:35 +1300:
Hi,
I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support
communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that
created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been so
dysfunctional as to then fall part.

So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and
oppression of humanity then say so.

There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive
examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most
places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being
just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to
recognize it.
[snip]
There is a trap that almost everyone falls into. It is the assumption that the
situation is dipolar, when actually it is quadrupolar.

Rather than just left and right there is also an up and a down, or
perhaps a better analogy is the 4 points of the compass.

If East and West are collectivism and capitalism, and North and South are
totalitarianism and anarchy, then all forms of society fall somewhere on the
plane thus described.
IOW, there is an economic axis (E-W) and an order (or control) axis (N-S).

The worst atrocities appear to be committed by peoples that tend toward the N-S
extremes. The most prosperous and happiest societies tend toward the centre.

In the N-S direction, you need some measure of control, but not so much as to
stifle the individual. In the E-W direction you need freely flowing trade, with
some government interference in some cases.

By trying to see everything as only E-W, the economic aspects are frequently
confused with the order aspects.

To take two examples from the real world, China and the US, I would say that
China is currently approaching the centre on the E-W axis, from the collectivist
direction, but is still rather strongly totalitarian on the N-S axis.

With the new administration in Washington, the US is approaching the centre in
the E-W direction from the capitalistic side. In the N-S direction, it isn't yet
clear (to me) what direction the new administration is going in, but the
previous administration was clearly going away from the centre in the
totalitarian direction.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

2009-02-23 Thread Jed Rothwell


John Berry wrote:

There are many positive examples of something that could be termed 
positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care 
practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic 
version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch 
Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it.


In the real world, all economies in all nations and cultures are a 
mixture of capitalism and socialism. Nowhere on earth does the fire 
department charge you to put out a fire in your house. Nowhere is 
every single road a privately owned toll road.


In the past there have been some more extreme examples in both 
directions. In Edo Japan fire departments were private, and when two 
companies responded to the same fire they sometimes spent more effort 
fighting one another over turf than putting out the fire. The 
private, capitalistic model for fire departments does not work well 
for practical reasons.


Winston Churchill favored socialized medicine and compared it to fire 
fighting. Firemen do not stop and ask whose house is burning, and 
they do not charge the victim for their services, so hospitals should 
not either. The key point is that no one chooses to be sick (or to 
recover). There is no benefit to being sick. In short, it is an 
unmitigated and uncontrollable evil, like having your house burn 
down. (There are some things you can do to prevent your house from 
burning down such as not using kerosene heaters; and by the same 
token there are some things you can do to preserve your health, but 
these methods are not foolproof.)


There are many other reasons that favor socialized medicine more 
strongly than socializing other sectors of the economy. Three related 
developments have strengthened the appeal of socialized medicine in 
recent decades:


1. The cost of medical treatment has skyrocketed because of 
improvements in technology. Many people who would have died cheaply 
years ago can now be saved at great expense.


2. Because medicine is now more effective, people want it more than 
they used to. Most people who are desperately ill will pay huge sums 
to live. They will bankrupt their families to save themselves or 
their children, or even elderly parents in some cases. In the past 
you could not do this even if you wanted to. It wasn't an option. A 
middle class person could afford to buy all the medial help he could 
get, because there wasn't much on offer.


3. Doctors, insurance companies and others have taken advantage of 
this situation to raise their rates. In the 1930s, medical students 
were told that if they wanted to become wealthy they should marry 
money. Doctors were expected to scrape by on a respectable but 
lower-middle-class salary. (The same is true of university 
professors, by the way. At Cornell, most of the professors' wives 
worked in the 1930s, to make ends meet, whereas nowadays profs. make 
huge salaries.) When doctors could not do much for patients they 
could not charge much, either. Now they have the power of life and 
death over use, and if they are left of their own devices they will 
eventually swallow up 20% then 30% then 50% of the GDP.


The situation is obviously out of control. The proof of that is that 
there is no correlation between the amount of money different 
societies spend on medicine and the results. Europeans and Japanese 
spend far less per capita, and a far lower fraction of their GDP, but 
their treatment and outcomes are superior to the US for middle-class 
and working-class people (90% of the population). By most measures 
such as longevity, infant mortality, chronic disease, obesity, 
diabetes, primary care access, end of life, quality of life and so 
on, the US is dead last in the developed world, and well behind 
places like Albania and Cuba. People who have not lived overseas or 
personally experienced healthcare in Europe or Japan (as I have) 
cannot imagine how screwed up our system is, or how easily it might 
be improved. The movie Sicko barely scratched the surface. I know 
several people in the U.S. whose lives have been ruined and families 
bankrupted by illnesses such as stroke and cancer. I also know many 
people in Japan who had these diseases and were either cured or cared 
for to the end at no cost to the family, with far less trauma and 
heartbreak for everyone, and far superior nursing and daily care.


In short, the competitive, self-limiting mechanisms that normally 
keep prices reasonable and prevent one sector of the economy from 
taking over do not work in medicine. Every sector of the economy, 
every product, and every consumer is unique. The generalized laws of 
economics are only approximations and do not apply well to some goods 
and services. They hardly apply at all to medicine. The notion that 
ordinary people will shop around to find a cure for disease is ludicrous.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had
socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or
not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever
again...

Stick to tinkering in your garages, guys.


- -- grok.




As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:

 I agree with Edmund ;)
 
 On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote:
 
  I agree with John, However, there seems to be a
  basic misunderstanding about the difference between capitalism and
  socialism.
 
  Capitalism works because it is designed to allow each person to make
  decisions based on their own self interest. This is called freedom by people
  who use simple descriptions. For this system to work properly, rules have to
  be agreed to that encourage individual decisions that benefit society in
  general, rather than just a few people.  Unfortunately, over the years, the
  rules have been slowly changed by the rich and powerful. We now see the
  result of these changes.  We now need to restore the rules that have been
  lost. This is NOT socialism.
 
  In contrast, socialism imposes rules that are independent of personal
  choice.  The rules force choices based on what the government wants.  Some
  choices must be made at the top and this requirement operates without
  objection in all organizations and in various ways in all governments.  The
  challenge is to find an efficient mixture of freedom and controlled
  behavior.  Unfortunately, too many people in the US do not think clearly.
   Consequently, compromises are made that only benefit people who have the
  largest self-interest to protect.   This is achieved by keeping the rest of
  society occupied by fighting among themselves over irrelevant issues like
  who is liberal or who is conservative, or by encouraging an attack of
  anything that is unwanted by calling it socialism.  If you want to know who
  is to blame, just look at what is written here many times by people who have
  no understanding about how the world works.
 
  Regards,
  Ed
 

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GyZbBLz8Yv2Nw1nh+HDfPOo=
=/U/p
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

2009-02-23 Thread Jed Rothwell


grok wrote:


Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had
socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or
not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever
again...


We are not all petit-bourgeois, and it is possible that some of us 
know more about some aspects of this situation than you do. For 
example, I probably know more about medical care in Japan than you do.


It is a mistake to judge an idea by judging the background or 
economic status the person who presents it, rather than by 
considering the merits of the idea itself.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:

 I think one of my main objections to the concept often described as
 The Rapture is that for many it would seem to imply that there is
 absolutely nothing any of us can do about the human condition, coming
 Biblical Events.

Everybody has a basic human right to their beliefs, certainly -- however
right or wrong they are. But it's another thing entirely that certain
fascistic xian organizations are attempting to use the cover of their
religious status to try and take over governments -- most specifically
the U.S. one -- and the police/legal/bureaucratic apparatus, and the
military, in an attempt to impose a theocratic police state over us. And
the same can be said as well for those _other_ theocratic and irridentist
movements which have been attempting to fill the world-wide political-
economic vacuum left after the Cold War.

In any case, I can't see how people can believe any of this stuff.
And *marxism* is supposed to be illogical..??


- -- grok.





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Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture

Grok,

I was asking Thomas, not you.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture

2009-02-23 Thread leaking pen

And doing so on an open list, not private email.  which means he has a
right to respond as well.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:53 PM, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote:
 Grok,

 I was asking Thomas, not you.

 Regards
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture

Leak sez:

 And doing so on an open list, not private email.  which means he has a
 right to respond as well.

 Grok,

 I was asking Thomas, not you.

Of course Grok has the right to comment. You did, didn't you?

My comment still stands.

It is Mr. Malloy's perception that I'm interested in, not Grok's.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:14 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

 In reply to  John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:05:35 +1300:
 Hi,
 I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support
 communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that
 created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been
 so
 dysfunctional as to then fall part.
 
 So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and
 oppression of humanity then say so.
 
 There are many positive examples of something that could be termed
 positive
 examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in
 most
 places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being
 just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to
 recognize it.
 [snip]
 There is a trap that almost everyone falls into. It is the assumption that
 the
 situation is dipolar, when actually it is quadrupolar.

 Rather than just left and right there is also an up and a down, or
 perhaps a better analogy is the 4 points of the compass.

 If East and West are collectivism and capitalism, and North and South are
 totalitarianism and anarchy, then all forms of society fall somewhere on
 the
 plane thus described.
 IOW, there is an economic axis (E-W) and an order (or control) axis (N-S).


Indeed, the other day i was looking at:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html



 The worst atrocities appear to be committed by peoples that tend toward the
 N-S
 extremes.


I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be
ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian
not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not bring
up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti)

I am not sure what atrocities you consider to have been committed by those
on the north end of the scale.

The most prosperous and happiest societies tend toward the centre.


Center is most practical, however it misses the point somewhat in that just
because things average out to center does not mean that the correct answer
is always the center, sometimes the answer is an extreme.
It's like driving a car, the steering wheel position will average out while
driving to be centered but if you want to get anywhere you are going to have
to turn tight corners.



 In the N-S direction, you need some measure of control, but not so much as
 to
 stifle the individual. In the E-W direction you need freely flowing trade,
 with
 some government interference in some cases.

 By trying to see everything as only E-W, the economic aspects are
 frequently
 confused with the order aspects.

 To take two examples from the real world, China and the US, I would say
 that
 China is currently approaching the centre on the E-W axis, from the
 collectivist
 direction, but is still rather strongly totalitarian on the N-S axis.


Indeed.




 With the new administration in Washington, the US is approaching the centre
 in
 the E-W direction from the capitalistic side. In the N-S direction, it
 isn't yet
 clear (to me) what direction the new administration is going in, but the
 previous administration was clearly going away from the centre in the
 totalitarian direction.

 Regards,

 Robin van Spaandonk

 http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:

 grok wrote:
 
 Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had
 socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or
 not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever
 again...
 
 We are not all petit-bourgeois, and it is possible that some of us 
 know more about some aspects of this situation than you do. For 
 example, I probably know more about medical care in Japan than you do.

Actually, you most all seem quite petit-bourgeois to me -- mentality-wise
anyway (and for that matter: aren't all U.S. workers middle-class these
days..?) And if you are not being exploited for your surplus-value --
well, all the more so.

As for what you or I or anyone does or doesn't know specifically: that's
somewhat of a non sequitur in this discussion, isn't it..? And for the
record: I certainly don't pretend to be deeply knowledgable about
Over-Unity, or much else in these technical fields.



 


 It is a mistake to judge an idea by judging the background or 
 economic status the person who presents it, rather than by 
 considering the merits of the idea itself.
 
 - Jed

No, it's wrong to be ad hominem -- quite another thing. The class
orientation of the speaker can -- and often is -- to-the-point.
But it is in the nature of Late Capitalist U.S. culture to deny
absolutely everything about class.


- -- grok.





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K/xl78X4fveXEkLf2+f7N3o=
=5Fwq
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Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?


grok wrote:


Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had
socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or
not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever
again...

Stick to tinkering in your garages, guys.
 


Given how full of s-it you are Grok, that would talk a lot of T P.

Any body who thinks that the world is a better place because of 
increasing socialist tinkering in the economy is either insane, or so 
full of chutzpah that he is experiencing a willful suspension of 
disbelief. IMHO, world would be a better place if we techies ran it, I 
doubt that even a committee of all of us could make a bigger mess of 
things than people with legal degrees have.


Speaking of serendipity, Hugh Hewitt just had an investment guy on. He 
attributed the Stock Market's free fall to capital going on strike 
because of the crazy regulatory environment created by the Demoncratic 
controlled congress. Rather like Atlas Shrugged he continued.


I'm Petite Bourgeois, and proud of it.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---

Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture


grok wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com
mounted the barricade and roared out:
 


I think one of my main objections to the concept often described as
The Rapture is that for many it would seem to imply that there is
absolutely nothing any of us can do about the human condition, coming
Biblical Events.
   



Everybody has a basic human right to their beliefs, certainly -- however
right or wrong they are. But it's another thing entirely that certain
fascistic xian organizations are attempting to use the cover of their
religious status to try and take over governments -- most specifically
the U.S. one

Too bad it's not working out for us. We are the put upon minority whose 
rights are being destroyed by the followers of the other religion 
Secular Humanism.



-- and the police/legal/bureaucratic apparatus, and the
military, 


That is exactly what it looks like they are going to do.

in an attempt to impose a theocratic police state over us. 

What do you mean us? It's the people who believe as you do who are doing 
this. They have an agenda that's as simple as, ABB, anything but the 
Bible. It was Marxism, now it's Islam. What you decry, it what you advocate.



And
the same can be said as well for those _other_ theocratic and irridentist
movements which have been attempting to fill the world-wide political-
economic vacuum left after the Cold War.
 

You conveniently ignore the stated objective of the communists, world 
conquest. Now we have another force with the same objective, the 
imposition of Sharia Law.



In any case, I can't see how people can believe any of this stuff.
And *marxism* is supposed to be illogical..??

 

Not illogical, insane. You are a poster boy for the educationally 
induced insanity of Marxism.



--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- 
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Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

2009-02-23 Thread mixent

In reply to  John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:13:40 +1300:
Hi,
[snip]
I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be
ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian
not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not bring
up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti)

[snip]
The extreme example of free will is a lawless society where everyone is free to
do exactly as they please. This is anarchy by definition, and the closest
example today that I can think of is Somalia.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture

2009-02-23 Thread Harry Veeder

- Original Message -
From: thomas malloy temall...@usfamily.net
Date: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture

 grok wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks svj.orionwo...@gmail.com
 mounted the barricade and roared out:

 I think one of my main objections to the concept often described as
 The Rapture is that for many it would seem to imply that there is
 absolutely nothing any of us can do about the human condition, 
 comingBiblical Events.

 Everybody has a basic human right to their beliefs, certainly -- 
 howeverright or wrong they are. But it's another thing entirely 
 that certain
 fascistic xian organizations are attempting to use the cover of their
 religious status to try and take over governments -- most 
 specificallythe U.S. one

 Too bad it's not working out for us. We are the put upon minority 
 whose 
 rights are being destroyed by the followers of the other religion 
 Secular Humanism.

Please provide a concrete example of how secular humanism is denying you
the right
to practice *your* religion.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

Well I guess that would be off the scale, those who hold it as a political
ideology would assume that there is a system to keep people from harming
each other or that the society did not contain dysfunction so not requiring
any army/police/justice system to protect people

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 2:58 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

 In reply to  John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:13:40 +1300:
 Hi,
 [snip]
 I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be
 ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian
 not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not
 bring
 up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti)
 
 [snip]
 The extreme example of free will is a lawless society where everyone is
 free to
 do exactly as they please. This is anarchy by definition, and the closest
 example today that I can think of is Somalia.

 Regards,

 Robin van Spaandonk

 http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html

[Vo]:Complete BARC-1500 Studies in Cold Fusion Report Republished Electronically

2009-02-23 Thread Steven Krivit


Complete BARC-1500 Studies in Cold Fusion Report Republished Electronically
Historic Research on Neutron and Tritium Production from LENR experiments 
at India's Largest Nuclear Research Laboratory


http://newenergytimes.com/v2/archives/1989BARC1500Report/BARC1500.htm


Preface to the New Energy Times Reprint of the BARC-1500 Report

It is appropriate that an international conference on cold fusion, now 
called Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR) is being held next month at Salt 
Lake City, Utah, to mark the twentieth anniversary of the historic 
Fleischmann-Pons University of Utah announcement which was first made there.


It is obvious by now that experiments on this field have been repeated by 
several groups in the world and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with 
the observations.


If the observed phenomena do not fit within our text-book understanding of 
nuclear phenomena, that is a problem for science to solve. Nature 
demonstrates many phenomena which we don't yet understand. This does not 
mean we should not explore further.


The need to satisfy peer reviews, (in fact there could be no perfect peers 
at any time in any subject,) should not come in the way of continued 
exploration. We are glad that an archive is being created to mark this 
occasion. We congratulate Steven B. Krivit and New Energy Times for this 
initiative.


- Dr. P. K. Iyengar, Chairman (retired), Atomic Energy Commission, India
February 23, 2009

- M. Srinivasan, Associate Director (retired), Physics Group, Bhabha Atomic 
Research Centre (BARC), India

February 23, 2009

Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

2009-02-23 Thread Harry Veeder



- Original Message -
From: John Berry aethe...@gmail.com
Date: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?

 Well I guess that would be off the scale, those who hold it as a 
 politicalideology would assume that there is a system to keep 
 people from harming
 each other or that the society did not contain dysfunction so not 
 requiringany army/police/justice system to protect people
 
 On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 2:58 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:
 
  In reply to  John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:13:40 
 +1300: Hi,
  [snip]
  I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people 
 must be
  ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled 
 libertarian not anarchist which has different connotations. 
 (Libertarian does not
  bring
  up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti)
  
  [snip]
  The extreme example of free will is a lawless society where 
 everyone is
  free to
  do exactly as they please. 

A state of anarchy would work only under ideal circumstances where all
the participants are equally powerful from the outset. 

harry


 This is anarchy by definition, and the 
 closest example today that I can think of is Somalia.
 
  Regards,
 
  Robin van Spaandonk

Anarchy is always short lived, because

Re: [Vo]:OT - The Rapture