Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Allan McRae]

On 23/09/16 14:23, Eli Schwartz via arch-general wrote:
> On 09/22/2016 08:19 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
>> Anyone else who replies to this thread will be stuck in the moderation
>> queue (which no-one checks).
> 
> I took this to mean that this thread got "locked" so to speak, and any
> replies to this thread would require manual approval (which isn't going
> to happen) by a list moderator in order to get through.
> 
> So, why are people still successfully posting new emails to this email
> thread? :(
> Because I was enjoying the thought that we wouldn't have to listen to
> any further stupidity, and I feel kind of let down that it isn't so...

Everyone who replies to the list (you included) are banned from posting
until I feel like reinstating permissions.

Allan

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Eli Schwartz via arch-general]

On 09/22/2016 08:19 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
> Anyone else who replies to this thread will be stuck in the moderation
> queue (which no-one checks).

I took this to mean that this thread got "locked" so to speak, and any
replies to this thread would require manual approval (which isn't going
to happen) by a list moderator in order to get through.

So, why are people still successfully posting new emails to this email
thread? :(
Because I was enjoying the thought that we wouldn't have to listen to
any further stupidity, and I feel kind of let down that it isn't so...

-- 
Eli Schwartz

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 08:16pm, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:00:53 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:

Then we are in agreement; the goal is to provide people with what they
need and to encourage them to explore in more depth, or for edge
cases, the official documentation.


Then I think I misinterpreted the snark as seriousness in your post
yesterday.  I apologize.


No need to apologise (but the fact that you did is a testament to your
character); I was mostly typing for the people that read the ML but are
not necessarily contributing to this discussion. I think it is important
that on issues around our core values we are quite resolute. 


Cheers,

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



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Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 10:09:14 +1000, aur basica via arch-general wrote:
>Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?

The OP does, because some of us still reply ;). Let's ignore the two
threads!

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Kyle Terrien via arch-general]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:22:24 -0400
Simon Gomizelj via arch-general  wrote:
> But we do have to make it clear that we won't **officially** support
> anything installed outside of the officially sanctions instructions. I
> don't see that as unreasonable.

I have to agree.  As someone who works software QA professionally, I
feel the pain.

On the QA team, we can only test a certain number of configurations
because of time.  Anything else?  Well, you are basically blazing your
own trail.  The same rule applies to support.

Yes, it is possible to debug issues on "unsupported" configurations,
but the process is almost always a time sink (i.e. low reward to cost
ratio).  This is why there is a little hostility toward the third party
tools.  They increase the amount of support work drastically.

vodik, keep up the good work!

--Kyle

-- 
The computer can't tell you the emotional story.  It can give you the
exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
- Frank Zappa


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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Kyle Terrien via arch-general]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:00:53 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:
> Then we are in agreement; the goal is to provide people with what they
> need and to encourage them to explore in more depth, or for edge
> cases, the official documentation.

Then I think I misinterpreted the snark as seriousness in your post
yesterday.  I apologize.

--Kyle


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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 05:55pm, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 18:16:27 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:

Arch has from the start been clear about its goals and intentions.
I'll quote from a section of the wiki that people seem much less
familiar with:

”Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more
user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain
user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those
contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as
possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone
with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the
documentation, and solve their own problems.”
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#User_centrality

/J



Yes, several people have quoted "Arch philosophy" for me.  I am
familiar with it.  I read it 3 years ago when I first installed Arch.  I
am also familiar with the fact that there are slightly different
interpretations of it.

For me, the issue is about framing the goal.  If the goal is to
"alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages", then people
will surely find a way to alienate them.  However, if your goal is to
give people a minimal amount of information and direct them to the man
pages where they can read more, then the wiki will be more inviting.

The difference is all in the framing.  I personally prefer to see the
latter because it is more optimistic and invites those interested to
help with the distro.


Then we are in agreement; the goal is to provide people with what they
need and to encourage them to explore in more depth, or for edge cases,
the official documentation.

Incidentally, that approach is documented in the talk page leading up to
and after the merge.

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Kyle Terrien via arch-general]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 18:16:27 +1200
Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:
> Arch has from the start been clear about its goals and intentions.
> I'll quote from a section of the wiki that people seem much less
> familiar with:
> 
> ”Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more
> user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain
> user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those
> contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as
> possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone
> with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the
> documentation, and solve their own problems.”
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#User_centrality
> 
> /J
> 

Yes, several people have quoted "Arch philosophy" for me.  I am
familiar with it.  I read it 3 years ago when I first installed Arch.  I
am also familiar with the fact that there are slightly different
interpretations of it.

For me, the issue is about framing the goal.  If the goal is to
"alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages", then people
will surely find a way to alienate them.  However, if your goal is to
give people a minimal amount of information and direct them to the man
pages where they can read more, then the wiki will be more inviting.

The difference is all in the framing.  I personally prefer to see the
latter because it is more optimistic and invites those interested to
help with the distro.

--Kyle

-- 
The computer can't tell you the emotional story.  It can give you the
exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
- Frank Zappa


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Mauro Santos via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On 23-09-2016 01:06, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> > Hi Maurio,
> >
> > Thank you for your opinion.  In regard to your postulate, if my freedom
> > ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also
> > true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts.
> >
>
> Yes that is true, I never said it wasn't. Yet you conveniently ignore
> what I have written below that. Arch is not yours, you don't make it or
> run/manage the infrastructure, to use the same analogy as before, this
> is not your house so either you abide by the rules of the house or you
> get reprimanded or kicked out.
>
> --
> Mauro Santos
>

Hi Maurio.

You must be an American.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Mauro Santos via arch-general]

On 23-09-2016 01:06, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Hi Maurio,
> 
> Thank you for your opinion.  In regard to your postulate, if my freedom
> ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also
> true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts.
> 

Yes that is true, I never said it wasn't. Yet you conveniently ignore
what I have written below that. Arch is not yours, you don't make it or
run/manage the infrastructure, to use the same analogy as before, this
is not your house so either you abide by the rules of the house or you
get reprimanded or kicked out.

-- 
Mauro Santos

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[D C via arch-general]

To be fair, I think I'm trolling more than Francis.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:23 PM, D C  wrote:

> LOL
> 
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:09 PM, aur basica  wrote:
>>
>> > * Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list
>> > * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally
>> > call it Ubuntu /sarcasm)
>> > * Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to
>> use
>> > Reductio ad Hitlerum)
>> >
>> > Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
>> >
>>
>> Hi, aur basica:
>>
>> I don't recall mentioning any distribution other than Arch GNU/Linux,
>> except for the OpenBSD project, as an example of what can happen when a
>> distribution becomes pereceived by the public as insular and insolent.
>>
>> Again, I have never said that you have to call it anything.  You are free
>> to call it whatever you want to. And, of course, so am I.
>>
>> BTW, I am not trolling.  Are you?
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Public_Key_Block.asc
> 
>



-- 
Public_Key_Block.asc

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[D C via arch-general]

LOL


On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:09 PM, aur basica  wrote:
>
> > * Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list
> > * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally
> > call it Ubuntu /sarcasm)
> > * Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to
> use
> > Reductio ad Hitlerum)
> >
> > Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
> >
>
> Hi, aur basica:
>
> I don't recall mentioning any distribution other than Arch GNU/Linux,
> except for the OpenBSD project, as an example of what can happen when a
> distribution becomes pereceived by the public as insular and insolent.
>
> Again, I have never said that you have to call it anything.  You are free
> to call it whatever you want to. And, of course, so am I.
>
> BTW, I am not trolling.  Are you?
>



-- 
Public_Key_Block.asc

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:09 PM, aur basica  wrote:

> * Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list
> * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally
> call it Ubuntu /sarcasm)
> * Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to use
> Reductio ad Hitlerum)
>
> Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
>

Hi, aur basica:

I don't recall mentioning any distribution other than Arch GNU/Linux,
except for the OpenBSD project, as an example of what can happen when a
distribution becomes pereceived by the public as insular and insolent.

Again, I have never said that you have to call it anything.  You are free
to call it whatever you want to. And, of course, so am I.

BTW, I am not trolling.  Are you?

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Allan McRae]

Anyone else who replies to this thread will be stuck in the moderation
queue (which no-one checks).

Allan

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Eli Schwartz via arch-general]

On 09/22/2016 08:06 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Hi Maurio,
> 
> Thank you for your opinion.  In regard to your postulate, if my freedom
> ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also
> true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts.
> 
> 
> With warmest regards,
> y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
> 


While that is certainly true, I don't understand why you thought he
might think otherwise.

And I also don't understand, what the actual point of your reply was.
Did you mean to insinuate something? If so, please stop immediately, and
instead actually tell us what you mean to say. This guessing game is not
amusing.

-- 
Eli Schwartz

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Eli Schwartz via arch-general]

On 09/22/2016 08:00 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
> 
> I have never said that you have to call it anything.  You are free to call
> it whatever you want to.
> 
> And so am I.

But not on the Arch Linux mailing list -- we don't support other distros
here, and whatever "Arch GNU/Linux" is, it isn't "Arch Linux".
:p :p

So please take it to the mailing list and/or support forums of this
"Arch GNU/Linux" distro you speak of -- I bet they will appreciate it...


-- 
Eli Schwartz

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[aur basica via arch-general]

* Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list
* Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally call
it Ubuntu /sarcasm)
* Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to use
Reductio ad Hitlerum)

Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Thomas Bächler 
> wrote:
>
> > Am 22.09.2016 um 19:54 schrieb Francis Gerund via arch-general:
> > > Chris,
> > > Thank you for your interest.  Perhaps you may find this helpful:
> > >
> > > http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.en.html
> >
> > No, we don't find this helpful at all.
> >
> > The FSF has no right to forcefully rename what we call our OS. We call
> > it "Arch Linux" because we like that name. We don't call it "Arch
> > GNU/Linux" because that sounds stupid.
> >
> > The GPL explicitly allows us to distribute any software licensed under
> > it freely. There is no clause in the GPL that we have to include the
> > name "GNU" in our name in order to do so.
> >
> > By the FSF's argument, we should call it "Arch
> > freedesktop/GNU/systemd/KDE/GNOME/Linux", but that sounds even worse.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Hi Thomas,
>
> I have never said that you have to call it anything.  You are free to call
> it whatever you want to.
>
> And so am I.
>

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Hi Maurio,

Thank you for your opinion.  In regard to your postulate, if my freedom
ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also
true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts.


With warmest regards,
y'r obd't srvt., F.G.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Thomas Bächler 
wrote:

> Am 22.09.2016 um 19:54 schrieb Francis Gerund via arch-general:
> > Chris,
> > Thank you for your interest.  Perhaps you may find this helpful:
> >
> > http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.en.html
>
> No, we don't find this helpful at all.
>
> The FSF has no right to forcefully rename what we call our OS. We call
> it "Arch Linux" because we like that name. We don't call it "Arch
> GNU/Linux" because that sounds stupid.
>
> The GPL explicitly allows us to distribute any software licensed under
> it freely. There is no clause in the GPL that we have to include the
> name "GNU" in our name in order to do so.
>
> By the FSF's argument, we should call it "Arch
> freedesktop/GNU/systemd/KDE/GNOME/Linux", but that sounds even worse.
>
>
>
>
Hi Thomas,

I have never said that you have to call it anything.  You are free to call
it whatever you want to.

And so am I.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Mauro Santos via arch-general]

On 22-09-2016 23:10, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Hi D C,
> 
> Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say, without
> interference from sel-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other members of
> the Peanut Gallery.
> 
> HTH.
> .
> 

All nice and well, but don't forget your freedom ends where the freedom
of others start.

When you go to someone's house either you abide by their rules or you
get reprimanded or kicked out. The same logic applies in the ML and the
forums.

When you decide to run a forum or ML providing support for whatever you
fancy then you can manage it any way you like, here you have to abide by
the rules put in place by the people running the forums/ML/IRC.

-- 
Mauro Santos

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Mauro Santos via arch-general]

On 22-09-2016 17:26, Zachary Kline wrote:
> 
> How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the TalkingArch 
> project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually 
> impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch 
> maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use 
> Arch at all thanks to this project.

If I understand correctly, from what the description on the TalkingArch
project webpage says, it is the Arch iso with a few added packages to
help the visually impaired install Arch. I suppose that by this it means
the user is responsible for doing all the steps described in the wiki to
install Arch. I don't see any problem with this.

What I meant before is curses/graphical/one click installers that do
everything automagically. The user will be clueless as to what is
installed and how it is configured, and will waste everyone's time
playing a game of twenty questions to solve a trivial problem when the
solution is many of the times in a wiki page.

-- 
Mauro Santos

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Thomas Bächler]

Am 22.09.2016 um 19:54 schrieb Francis Gerund via arch-general:
> Chris,
> Thank you for your interest.  Perhaps you may find this helpful:
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.en.html

No, we don't find this helpful at all.

The FSF has no right to forcefully rename what we call our OS. We call
it "Arch Linux" because we like that name. We don't call it "Arch
GNU/Linux" because that sounds stupid.

The GPL explicitly allows us to distribute any software licensed under
it freely. There is no clause in the GPL that we have to include the
name "GNU" in our name in order to do so.

By the FSF's argument, we should call it "Arch
freedesktop/GNU/systemd/KDE/GNOME/Linux", but that sounds even worse.





signature.asc
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Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[D C via arch-general]

Thank you, Francis.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:56 PM, D C via arch-general <
> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
>
> > When I frist meet people I give them the utmost respect, then I basically
> > treat them the way they treat me. I urge everyone to do the same, that
> goes
> > for staff and the rest of the Arch community.
> >
>
>
> D C,
>
> Now that's just about the most sensible thing I've seen posted here all
> day.
>
> Thank You!
>

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:56 PM, D C via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> When I frist meet people I give them the utmost respect, then I basically
> treat them the way they treat me. I urge everyone to do the same, that goes
> for staff and the rest of the Arch community.
>


D C,

Now that's just about the most sensible thing I've seen posted here all
day.

Thank You!

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[D C via arch-general]

When I frist meet people I give them the utmost respect, then I basically
treat them the way they treat me. I urge everyone to do the same, that goes
for staff and the rest of the Arch community.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Tinu Weber]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 18:10:43 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say,
> without interference from self-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other
> members of the Peanut Gallery.

The linked comic points out exactly *that*: "Free speech" only means you
can't be legally punished for saying/writing something - but it doesn't
mean that a community must accept it if they consider it stupid.

Furthermore, Jason isn't "self-appointed", so
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Respect_the_staff

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Jude DaShiell]

Same here, but fortunately we have linuxquestions.com and 
supp...@talkingarch.tk.


On Thu, 22 Sep 2016, Zachary Kline wrote:


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:26:35
From: Zachary Kline 
Reply-To: General Discussion about Arch Linux 
To: General Discussion about Arch Linux 
Subject: Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users



On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general 
 wrote:

Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads
asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on
the forums will be closed and binned on sight.



How does one define ?third-party installer?? By my reading, the TalkingArch 
project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually 
impaired, could qualify, as it isn?t released by the official Arch maintainers. 
This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all 
thanks to this project.




--

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[D C via arch-general]

It was sarcasm =)

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> Hi D C,
>
> Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say, without
> interference from sel-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other members of
> the Peanut Gallery.
>
> HTH.
>

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Jude DaShiell]

I don't know how to search waybackmachine.com but for those interested 
in this topic perhaps the last real beginners guide got archived over 
there.  That's usually where old files and web pages end up.


On Thu, 22 Sep 2016, Mauro Santos via arch-general wrote:


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:21:30
From: Mauro Santos via arch-general 
To: arch-general@archlinux.org
Cc: Mauro Santos 
Subject: Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

On 22-09-2016 16:47, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:

Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be

supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.




While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to raw
Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not distributions,
they are just installers for Arch.

And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch
community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of
the user's installation.



Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads
asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on
the forums will be closed and binned on sight.




--

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Eli Schwartz via arch-general]

On 09/22/2016 03:10 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Hi Simon.
> 
> Thank you for the link you provided.
> 
> "You say 'tomayto', I say 'tomahto' . . ."
> "You say Arch (or Arch Linux, or archlinux), I say GNU/Linux . . .)
> 
> Either way, what does it matter?
> 
> I live in a culture that at least gives "lip service" to freedom of
> speech.  Thus, I try not to tell other people what to say or not to say,
> and I would hope for the same from others in return.

You are of course welcome to call Arch Linux anything you want. You can
in fact call it an *actual* tomato, if you really want.

That doesn't make you right. And that doesn't mean other people know
what you are talking about, if you insist on using your own private
references to things, although I concede in this case, that your mistake
is common enough that people will likely recognize what you really mean.

Arch Linux is a distribution, not an operating system. It is a
*distribution* of Linux or GNU/Linux or whatever you feel the compulsive
need to call it.

It is the prerogative of the distribution leaders to choose the
nomenclature.
But even according to the logic of the FSF, it is simply factually wrong
to call a *distribution* the "Arch GNU/Linux distribution" or whatever,
when their actual beef is with the operating system.

It doesn't really matter though, since the FSF and their political
activism is still deeply wrong. For perspective, a couter-argument:
http://linux.topology.org/lingl.html

Also, ISTR a mention, somewhere, about the FSF trying to *tell* Arch
Linux that they should change their name -- and the official Arch
response was "how utterly rude of you to tell us what to call ourselves.
Please never speak again." (I have no idea where though, so if anyone
recognizes this and has a link, I'd appreciate it.)

...

In short, take your political activism elsewhere, it is inappropriate on
this thread.
Alternatively, stop offering suggestions for distributions that are not
Arch Linux, on the Arch Linux mailing list.


-- 
Eli Schwartz

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Eli Schwartz via arch-general]

On 09/22/2016 03:40 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Simon,
> 
> Thank you for your taking the time for your thoughtful, informative
> explanation.
> 
> And thank you for your support service in #archlinux on IRC!
> 
> 
> So - supporting other distributions, or even other installation modalities
> is not "officially" supported.  Okay, fine.
> 
> I never said that anyone MUST support anything.  Please consider this as
> the bottom line:
> 
> 1) If you have the time and knowledge to answer a question or provide other
> support, please do so. And thank you!
> 
> 2) If you do not have the time or knowledge to answer a question or provide
> other support, then don't, but please say so, if you have the time to do
> that.
> 
> 3) Please do not criticize, ridicule, or discourage others from trying to
> answer questions or provide other support, regardless of who is requesting
> help, or how they "got here".
> 
> I really don't think that is too much to ask.

It absolutely, positively is too much to ask. You cannot come to "our"
forums and pollute it with noise that actively detracts from the
usefulness of the forums.

The problem with you, is that you seem to erroneously believe that that
means Arch Linux disapproves of those people getting help at all. Arch
Linux is very supportive of those people getting help *from the
locations best equipped to provide them with help*. Which isn't here.

And it is unconscionably rude to pollute the Arch Linux support
resources with counterproductive noise, therefore people who do so
anyway *deserve* our disdain. If we so chose to be disdainful, which
most Archers actually don't...

-- 
Eli Schwartz

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Hi D C,

Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say, without
interference from sel-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other members of
the Peanut Gallery.

HTH.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Dragon ryu via arch-general]

2016/09/23 7:02 "D C via arch-general" :
>
> Free speech, what's that?
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Tinu Weber  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 17:22:57 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general
> > wrote:
> > > > There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but
> > > > having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online
> > > > community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one
> > > > of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this
> > > > ML but for the community.
> > > >
> > > > Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
> > > >
> > > > /J
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > http://jasonwryan.com/
> > > > GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Dear, sweet Jason,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your interest.
> > >
> > > But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention
> > > sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very
> > > least.
> > >
> > > I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again.
> > > It might not be considered welcome.
> > >
> > > With warmest regards,
> > > y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
> >
> > https://xkcd.com/1357/
> >

*facedesks*
*drop mic*
*grab popcorn*
Go on *cough*

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[D C via arch-general]

Free speech, what's that?

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Tinu Weber  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 17:22:57 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general
> wrote:
> > > There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but
> > > having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online
> > > community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one
> > > of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this
> > > ML but for the community.
> > >
> > > Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
> > >
> > > /J
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > http://jasonwryan.com/
> > > GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Dear, sweet Jason,
> >
> > Thank you for your interest.
> >
> > But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention
> > sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very
> > least.
> >
> > I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again.
> > It might not be considered welcome.
> >
> > With warmest regards,
> > y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
>
> https://xkcd.com/1357/
>

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Tinu Weber]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 17:22:57 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> > There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but
> > having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online
> > community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one
> > of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this
> > ML but for the community.
> >
> > Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
> >
> > /J
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://jasonwryan.com/
> > GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
> >
> >
>
> Dear, sweet Jason,
>
> Thank you for your interest.
>
> But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention
> sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very
> least.
>
> I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again.
> It might not be considered welcome.
>
> With warmest regards,
> y'r obd't srvt., F.G.

https://xkcd.com/1357/

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[D C via arch-general]

Wait, let me grab some popcorn first. Okay, go on...

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having
> the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a
> computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive
> and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community.
> Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
> >
> >
> >
> > /J
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://jasonwryan.com/
> > GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
> >
> >
>
> Dear, sweet Jason,
>
> Thank you for your interest.
>
> But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention
> sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very
> least.
>
> I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again. It
> might not be considered welcome.
>
> With warmest regards,
> y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
>

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Sean Greenslade]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 04:50:54PM -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you
> 
> > make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work?
> > https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_
> > Linux_distribution_support_ONLY
> >
> > /J
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://jasonwryan.com/
> > GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
> >
> >
> Jason,
> 
> Thank you for the link to the "Code of Conduct, etc.".
> 
> USA, 1850:
> "Rather than telling us how our country *should not* have slavery, why
> don't you make some effort to learn that it actually *does* have slavery?"
> (And that the US Supreme Court said that is okay.)
> 
> :)

Couple of points:

1. Arch is not a democracy. See the "Respect the Staff" entry in the
code of conduct.

2. Your comparison to slavery is completely uncalled for. Banning the
dicussion of unsupported software is no where close to a human rights
violation. Please discuss matters without ridiculous hyperbole.

3. Operating this mailing list, the forums, IRC channels, etc. costs
both time and money. Thus, the maintainers of these avenues of discourse
have every right to dictate what can or cannot be discussed on them. If
you want to help users of unsupported installers, don't do it on Arch's
dime.

--Sean

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having
the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a
computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive
and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community.
Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
>
>
>
> /J
>
> --
>
> http://jasonwryan.com/
> GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
>
>

Dear, sweet Jason,

Thank you for your interest.

But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention
sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very
least.

I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again. It
might not be considered welcome.

With warmest regards,
y'r obd't srvt., F.G.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 04:50pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:

Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you


make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_
Linux_distribution_support_ONLY

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



Jason,

Thank you for the link to the "Code of Conduct, etc.".

USA, 1850:
"Rather than telling us how our country *should not* have slavery, why
don't you make some effort to learn that it actually *does* have slavery?"
(And that the US Supreme Court said that is okay.)



There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but
having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online
community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of
the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but
for the community. 


Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you

> make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work?
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_
> Linux_distribution_support_ONLY
>
> /J
>
> --
>
> http://jasonwryan.com/
> GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
>
>
Jason,

Thank you for the link to the "Code of Conduct, etc.".

USA, 1850:
"Rather than telling us how our country *should not* have slavery, why
don't you make some effort to learn that it actually *does* have slavery?"
(And that the US Supreme Court said that is okay.)

:)

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 03:40pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:


3) Please do not criticize, ridicule, or discourage others from trying to
answer questions or provide other support, regardless of who is requesting
help, or how they "got here".



Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you
make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work?
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_Linux_distribution_support_ONLY

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:29:32 -0400, Simon Gomizelj via arch-general
wrote:
>Its not a dig at GNU, the official name is either "Arch Linux" or
>"Arch". We're a GNU/Linux distro (though we don't meet the FSF
>foundation's definition, but you always have Parabola then).
>
>https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_terminology#Arch_Linux

Usually GNU/Linux distros don't provide linuxsampler by official
repositories.

[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pacman -Si linuxsampler | head -7
Repository  : community
Name: linuxsampler
Version : 2.0.0-4
Description : Professional-grade audio sampler alternative to
Gigasampler Architecture: x86_64
URL : http://www.linuxsampler.org/
Licenses: GPL  custom:exception

Distros often have issues with the "exception".

https://www.linuxsampler.org/faq.html#open_source

The suggested package isn't available:

https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/qsampler
http://packages.ubuntu.com/en/xenial/qsampler

Regards,
Ralf

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Simon Gomizelj via arch-general]

> Either way, what does it matter?
>
> I live in a culture that at least gives "lip service" to freedom of
> speech.  Thus, I try not to tell other people what to say or not to say,
> and I would hope for the same from others in return.

Sure, you have all the freedom to call things by the wrong name. No skin
off my back.

I think we're misunderstanding each other anyways.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Simon Gomizelj  wrote:

> Its not a dig at GNU, the official name is either "Arch Linux" or
> "Arch". We're a GNU/Linux distro (though we don't meet the FSF
> foundation's definition, but you always have Parabola then).
>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_terminology#Arch_Linux
>


Hi Simon.

Thank you for the link you provided.

"You say 'tomayto', I say 'tomahto' . . ."
"You say Arch (or Arch Linux, or archlinux), I say GNU/Linux . . .)

Either way, what does it matter?

I live in a culture that at least gives "lip service" to freedom of
speech.  Thus, I try not to tell other people what to say or not to say,
and I would hope for the same from others in return.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Simon Gomizelj via arch-general]

Its not a dig at GNU, the official name is either "Arch Linux" or
"Arch". We're a GNU/Linux distro (though we don't meet the FSF
foundation's definition, but you always have Parabola then).

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_terminology#Arch_Linux

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Sean Greenslade]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 01:22:44PM -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> > The point is that the official Arch Linux support channels (forums,
> > mailing lists, etc.) are only for official Arch projects. Any derivative
> > projects, be they custom installers, distro derivatives, or anything
> > else, need to run their own support channels.
> >
> > If you have an issue with Talking Arch, bring it up with the Talking
> > Arch project maintainers. If they find your problem is actually with
> > something in Arch itself, then it would be approproate to raise the
> > issue on the official Arch support channels.
> >
> > --Sean
> >
> 
> Tinu,
> 
> The phrase "You are welcome" is actually meant to be indicative of the
> attitude with which I hope that new users would be greeted.
> 
> Thank you for allowing me to clarify that point.

Please:
1. Bottom post your replies, like I have shown above.
2. Trim quoted content appropriately.
3. Reply to the message you are addressing, not a random message on a
different branch of the discussion.

All this helps keep mailing list threads readable and makes archives
more easy to navigate.

Thanks,

--Sean

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Simon Gomizelj via arch-general]

> While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to
> raw Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not
> distributions, they are just installers for Arch.

So to give you some background why you get the hostility, here's some
things I've experienced from the frontlines of Arch Linux support (I am
vodik on #archlinux irc channel).

Here's the thing with installers - what did they install? I don't mean
in a rough sense, like it installed Gnome or whatnot, I mean in
*detail*. The devil is in the detail. With so many possible combinations
of packages to get a working desktop, its important to know what was
installed, what came from official repos, what might have come from
elsewhere.

Now the bridge with derivatives and installers was burned by some of the
earlier (and I think mostly now defunct) derivatives. You had distros
claiming to be Arch, nothing more than an installed, but installing
packages from AUR by default. What did that mean? Tons of technical
support questions asking why package foo broke on upgrade. Why did pkg
foo break? Because it never was in the official repos and therefore
sitting unmaintained on user's machines. And the user **didn't know**.

I'm all for taking advantage of the AUR, but it should be informed
decision, not something someone makes for you (and we don't even
officially support the AUR to boot).

The most pointed example was ArchBang (I think) shipping cairo-ubuntu
from AUR by default. After a particular cario update where every other
package that depended on cario had to be rebuild, ArchBang installs
broke, because it was stuck on the old version. Why was this a support
nightmare? Because so many users jumped into #archlinux, complaining
about their broken Arch Linux install, and it wasn't our fault. Because
those users **didn't know** that package was on their system, not
getting updates, and didn't realize it wasn't our fault. And because
they didn't know, it was bigger a struggle to initially debug.

> And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the
> Arch community that will be happy to help, without questioning the
> pedigree of the user's installation.

Its not a matter of pedigree, its a matter of having informed users.

If your users are aware of every detail the installer performs, and
that this installer doesn't do anything funny or anything outside of
official packages, your users will be fine getting Arch Linux support.
Nobody will be the wiser - but that's the important detail.

But we do have to make it clear that we won't **officially** support
anything installed outside of the officially sanctions instructions. I
don't see that as unreasonable.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:11:28 -0400, Francis Gerund wrote:
>I did read the web page that you provided a link for.  I must confess
>that I did not see the relevance of the linked page to this
>discussion.  I seemed to be an announcement of two distributions being
>added to the FSF list of free software distributions, from 2009.
>
>???

We became way to off-topic.

Visiting the link it provides other links and IMO it makes clear how
much RMS / FSF philosophy is bound to GNU/Linux.

"Parabola GNU/Linux-libre – an Arch community-driven distribution that
is fully conformant with the GNU Free System Distribution Guidelines,
uses the Linux-libre kernel and excludes all other proprietary software
and firmware normally found in Arch" -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Linux#Derivatives

2 Cents,
Ralf

-- 
Death of ROXTerm
https://sourceforge.net/p/roxterm/discussion/422638/thread/60da6975/

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Ralf Mardorf 
wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 19:39:29 +0200, Chris Warrick via arch-general
> wrote:
> >On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general
> > wrote:
> >> For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux,
> >> without the agony:
> >> And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
> >
> >There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking
> >about is called “Arch Linux”.
>
> Francis, as a starting point consider to beginn reading at
> https://www.fsf.org/news/free-distributions-updates-kongoni-trisquel .
> Perhaps we could find an end for this thread, before the list owner
> decides to close the list for a day ;).
>
> I'm still watching the install guide wiki, assuming that notifications
> were not bounced, then until now nobody mentioned an issue with this
> wiki, nobody added suggestions about what needs to be improved.
>
> IMO the tone of voice by this thread became borderline.
>
> I'm going to ignore this thread soon.
>
> Regards,
> Ralf
>


Ralf,

I did read the web page that you provided a link for.  I must confess that
I did not see the relevance of the linked page to this discussion.  I
seemed to be an announcement of two distributions being added to the FSF
list of free software distributions, from 2009.

???

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 19:39:29 +0200, Chris Warrick via arch-general
wrote:
>On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general
> wrote:
>> For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux,
>> without the agony:
>> And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:  
>
>There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking
>about is called “Arch Linux”.

Francis, as a starting point consider to beginn reading at
https://www.fsf.org/news/free-distributions-updates-kongoni-trisquel .
Perhaps we could find an end for this thread, before the list owner
decides to close the list for a day ;).

I'm still watching the install guide wiki, assuming that notifications
were not bounced, then until now nobody mentioned an issue with this
wiki, nobody added suggestions about what needs to be improved.

IMO the tone of voice by this thread became borderline.

I'm going to ignore this thread soon.

Regards,
Ralf

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Chris,
Thank you for your interest.  Perhaps you may find this helpful:

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.en.html



On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Chris Warrick via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general
>  wrote:
> > For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux,
> without
> > the agony:
> > And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
>
> There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking
> about is called “Arch Linux”.
>
> --
> Chris Warrick 
> PGP: 5EAAEA16
>

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Chris Warrick via arch-general]

On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general
 wrote:
> For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without
> the agony:
> And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:

There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking
about is called “Arch Linux”.

-- 
Chris Warrick 
PGP: 5EAAEA16

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 11:47:32 -0400, Francis Gerund wrote:
>And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the
>Arch community that will be happy to help, without questioning the
>pedigree of the user's installation.

You compare apples with oranges. Yes, I'm helping Antergos users, see
https://sourceforge.net/p/alsa/mailman/message/35379098/ . However, you
should notice that the link isn't an Arch related mailing list. Arch
general isn't the appropriate mailing list for Arch based distros. No
distro's forum can provide support for another distro, simply because it
isn't useful for those using the other distro, not because we are
cruel, we simply don't know this other distro and it's confusing for
those who use the distro that originally belongs to the forum, too.

Regards,
Ralf

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Tinu,

The phrase "You are welcome" is actually meant to be indicative of the
attitude with which I hope that new users would be greeted.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify that point.



On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Sean Greenslade 
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 09:26:35AM -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
> >
> > > On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general <
> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads
> > > asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers
> on
> > > the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
> > >
> >
> > How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the
> > TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible
> > to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the
> > official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I
> > am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.
>
> The point is that the official Arch Linux support channels (forums,
> mailing lists, etc.) are only for official Arch projects. Any derivative
> projects, be they custom installers, distro derivatives, or anything
> else, need to run their own support channels.
>
> If you have an issue with Talking Arch, bring it up with the Talking
> Arch project maintainers. If they find your problem is actually with
> something in Arch itself, then it would be approproate to raise the
> issue on the official Arch support channels.
>
> --Sean
>

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Sean Greenslade]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 09:26:35AM -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
> 
> > On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads
> > asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on
> > the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
> > 
> 
> How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the
> TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible
> to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the
> official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I
> am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.

The point is that the official Arch Linux support channels (forums,
mailing lists, etc.) are only for official Arch projects. Any derivative
projects, be they custom installers, distro derivatives, or anything
else, need to run their own support channels.

If you have an issue with Talking Arch, bring it up with the Talking
Arch project maintainers. If they find your problem is actually with
something in Arch itself, then it would be approproate to raise the
issue on the official Arch support channels.

--Sean

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana]

Am I the only one that can't understand the reason of this thread?

Ale

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:26 PM, Zachary Kline  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general <
> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> >
> > Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads
> > asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on
> > the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
> >
>
> How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the
> TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible to the
> visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch
> maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use
> Arch at all thanks to this project.
>
>

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Tinu Weber  wrote:

> Just take a look at that beautifully concise "Contents" table on
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide.
> That's one perfect checklist :-)
>

I think you are ~right.
>From my point of view beginner's guide was a perfect entry point to Arch
and to a new setup, no matter how old you were as a user, but things can
change and the Installation Guide is, well, good enough for this. :)

More seriousyl, I think it's a healthy approach to first give an
> overview of what is required for the installation, and then let the
> user/newcomer search the information in the wiki on their own


I think I agree with this, but Beginner's Guide wasn't harmful from my
point of view, even if I would rewrite a similar chunk of instructions with
a philosophical disclaimer and a bunch of links to stuff explaining the
Arch Way. IMHO the only sane approach to Arch Linux is to first comprehend
The Arch Way understanting all the technical and philosophical choices.
People now are setting up Arch boxes because it's cool.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Dario Giovannetti via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> I thought I'd make a graph about the reactions to the merge :)
>

Dude you missed the "systemd's fault!!1!" line :D

Saludos,
Ale

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Zachary Kline]

> On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general 
>  wrote:
> 
> Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads
> asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on
> the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
> 

How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the TalkingArch 
project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually 
impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch maintainers. 
This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all 
thanks to this project.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Mauro Santos via arch-general]

On 22-09-2016 16:47, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
> Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be
>> supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.
>>
> 
> 
> While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to raw
> Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not distributions,
> they are just installers for Arch.
> 
> And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch
> community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of
> the user's installation.
> 

Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads
asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on
the forums will be closed and binned on sight.

-- 
Mauro Santos

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be
> supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.
>


While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to raw
Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not distributions,
they are just installers for Arch.

And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch
community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of
the user's installation.

Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Doug Newgard]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 11:31:47 -0400
Francis Gerund via arch-general  wrote:

> For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without
> the agony:
> 
> 1)  http://sourceforge.net/projects/architect-linux
> 
> 2)  http://arch-anywhere.org
> 
> And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
> 
> http://antergos.com
> 
> You are welcome.

Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be
supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Maxwell Anselm via arch-general]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:12 AM, mike lojkovic via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> I'm in favor of the merge as well. For beginners there are plenty of
> Youtube videos that cover common desktop setups. That should be more than
> enough for users who are first learning how to setup a Linux distro.


Another reason for the merge is to solve a perception problem. The
Beginner's Guide was one of the only wiki articles that consolidated all of
its information in one place, rather than organizing things into separate
articles and references to official documentation. This gave new users the
impression that the Arch Wiki is a place for all-in-one hand-holding
tutorials. Then they finish installing their system and are shocked and
appalled at how "sadistic" and "inaccessible" the rest of the wiki is.

The installation guide isn't a ritualistic hazing, it's a "you must be this
tall to ride" sign.

Max

[arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users

[Francis Gerund via arch-general]

For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without
the agony:

1)  http://sourceforge.net/projects/architect-linux

2)  http://arch-anywhere.org

And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:

http://antergos.com

You are welcome.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Dragon ryu via arch-general]

2016/09/22 20:06 "Dario Giovannetti via arch-general" <
arch-general@archlinux.org>:
>
> I thought I'd make a graph about the reactions to the merge :)
>
> http://imgh.us/archwiki_complaints.svg

I don't know why pink line exists.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[mike lojkovic via arch-general]

I'm in favor of the merge as well. For beginners there are plenty of
Youtube videos that cover common desktop setups. That should be more than
enough for users who are first learning how to setup a Linux distro.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Dario Giovannetti via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> I thought I'd make a graph about the reactions to the merge :)
>
> http://imgh.us/archwiki_complaints.svg
>

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 11:53:42 +0200, Jürgen Werner wrote:
>That being said, I'm still in favour of the merge of Installation and
>Beginners Guide, but maybe we could include some more background
>information for beginners

If we know what to include, we could discuss it there. As long as we
have no idea what to include, we could watch the progress and chime
in, if we think it could be appropriate to do so.

I visited

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide

logged in and clicked "watch", so "Installation guide" and its
discussion page have been added to my watchlist.

I wasn't aware that the installation guide is debatable and after
taking a brief look at it, I couldn't notice an issue.

Everybody who noticed an issue, at least should watch what's going on,
too and consider to do more than just watching.

IMO everything we could say about this topic was said.

Regards,
Ralf

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jürgen Werner]

Am 22.09.2016 um 02:58 schrieb Jason Ryan via arch-general:
> On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
>> see below
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
>> arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,
>>
>> I strongly agree.
>
> This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages
> and the
> community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the
> wrong choice
> anyway…
>
> /J
>

I just had a look at the Installation Guide and as a seasoned user I
must say it's pretty comprehensive and right to the point! *BUT *being a
seasoned user I can't take the perspective of a beginner any more. When
I came to Arch I had some experience with other distros (mostly the once
that obfuscate the insides of a Linux distro). The Beginners Guide
helped me to get on track to start learning how a Linux distro really
worked. It was the beginning of great experience and I'm thankful for
every Arch Linux boot on my machine since then.
I don't know, if starting with such a scarce Installation Guide would
have made my motor running like the Beginners Guide. I just can't say.
Time has past, as for almost every one on this mailing list.
My point is, that it's not wrong to engage new and even inexperienced
users in Arch Linux, because IMHO it is the distro you can learn most
from about Linux. Sure, beginners break their installations, lose their
data, etc. That's nothing bad. The more you lose the more you learn and
be more careful next time. And if they get disappointed or frustrated
about that and go back to Ubuntu or whatever, so be it. Then they are
really the wrong people for Arch.

That being said, I'm still in favour of the merge of Installation and
Beginners Guide, but maybe we could include some more background
information for beginners (not to much though ;)). And to not distract
the seasoned users, these infos could be placed in collapsed boxes with
some header like "Beginners information". There is a wiki template
 for such boxes, but I
think it's not included in our wiki yet. It would be still nice and tidy
and maintainable, while being informative for beginners.

pogo

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Sylvain Pascou]

On jeu., 2016-09-22 at 10:36 +0200, Tinu Weber wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 09:46:30 +0200, Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana
> wrote:
> > 
> > While I agree with the guys saying the Beginner's Guide was harmful
> > to the
> > distro making lazy noobish users choose the wrong distribution for
> > 'em, I
> > strongly think that the Guide was pretty helpful as a quick setup
> > checklist
> > to seniors too.
> 
> Honestly, the Installation Guide does a tremendously better job at
> acting as a "checklist" than the old Beginners' Guide, which was
> filled
> with lots of additional noise concerning (arbitrarly chosen) special
> cases.
> 
> Just take a look at that beautifully concise "Contents" table on
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide.
> That's one perfect checklist :-)
> 
> More seriousyl, I think it's a healthy approach to first give an
> overview of what is required for the installation, and then let the
> user/newcomer search the information in the wiki on their own (rather
> than giving them one big chunk where they miss the forest for the
> trees).


Even though the Installation Guide does not detail every operation, 1/4
words are links to other pages, which contain these informations.
There's no deep search to conduct individually; everything is linked on
the Installation Guide.
ArchLinux is all about the user shaping his own system, whether
begginer or experimented. By forking to the related page of every
service to setup, with installation procedures, alternatives and
troubleshooting, it allows for proper customization and education.

Personally, being a newcomer to Arch (not to Linux though), I found it
more useful than an overloaded Begginer's Guide. It is tougher to
setup, but it properly follows Arch's philosophy, and acts both as an
introduction for newcomers and a checklist for experienced users.

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Tinu Weber]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 09:46:30 +0200, Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana wrote:
> While I agree with the guys saying the Beginner's Guide was harmful to the
> distro making lazy noobish users choose the wrong distribution for 'em, I
> strongly think that the Guide was pretty helpful as a quick setup checklist
> to seniors too.

Honestly, the Installation Guide does a tremendously better job at
acting as a "checklist" than the old Beginners' Guide, which was filled
with lots of additional noise concerning (arbitrarly chosen) special
cases.

Just take a look at that beautifully concise "Contents" table on
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide.
That's one perfect checklist :-)

More seriousyl, I think it's a healthy approach to first give an
overview of what is required for the installation, and then let the
user/newcomer search the information in the wiki on their own (rather
than giving them one big chunk where they miss the forest for the
trees).


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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 18:51:11 +1200, Jason Ryan wrote:
>On 22/09/16 at 08:47am, Martin Kühne wrote:
>>On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:  
>>> Everybody is able to participate at the Arch wiki...  
>>
>>Ralf touches a very intriguing argument here, which might just boil
>>this thread down to "telling others how to structure their wiki"...
>>  
>The Installation Guide is one of the few pages on the wiki that are
>locked and can only be edited by the staff. Changes can be made by
>gathering a consensus on the Talk page.

I provided the link

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Talk:Installation_guide

by my post

https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2016-September/042021.html

That the installation guide is immutable IMO isn't an issue. If
somebody should notice that something important is missing or hard to
understand, simply log in > click "discussion" > click "+" and add a new
section. The page is immutable, but participating in maintaining it
anyway isn't hard to do.

What happened to the beginners guide and especially the reason why it
happened was explained.

The wiki page and discussion histories show that nearly each day people
care about this page. It's anything but orphaned, so if somebody is
aware about issues that should be considered, then participating in
the discussion makes much sense.

The discussion on this list with unrelated comments, e.g. about people
who don't know what desktop environment they prefer, is useless.

"What happened to the Beginner's Guide?" is a valid question. This
question is answered.

Now there might be valid reasons to improve the installation guide and
the best way to address this, is participating to the wiki discussion.

Even if all subscribers of this list should agree that the installation
guide needs improvement, progress only could happen, if at least one of
us should contribute to the Wiki discussion.

FWIW I'm not annoyed by this thread, if I would, I simply would
ignore the thread. Since I had nothing to say to this topic, I didn't
participate. However, now I have something to say that is related to
this topic.

_There is a straight way to help improving the installation guide._

Regards,
Ralf

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jack L. Frost]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 09:53:53PM -0700, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:
> So, is making people hunt for information a ritualistic hazing?

No, it is not. No one is *making* people do anything. There is an installation
guide that does what it's supposed to: tell you what you need to do to end up
with a supported default Arch Linux install.

It is not meant to be a comprehensive guide on every step of the process, with
commands to copy and paste into a terminal. Separate wiki pages do that, you
just need to put in the tiniest possible bit of effort to find them.

And if you don't know how to partition disks, or have no idea if your laptop
uses EFI or not, or want a list of checkboxes to tick instead of already
knowing what you want to end up with... then maybe, just maybe, Arch is not the
distro you should be installing in the first place.


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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana]

While I agree with the guys saying the Beginner's Guide was harmful to the
distro making lazy noobish users choose the wrong distribution for 'em, I
strongly think that the Guide was pretty helpful as a quick setup checklist
to seniors too.

The solution to this could be taking it back enriching the first paragraphs
with some philosophical details about Arch, and caveats.

Ale

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Jason Ryan via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:

> On 22/09/16 at 08:47am, Martin Kühne via arch-general wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Ralf Mardorf 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Everybody is able to participate at the Arch wiki...
>>>
>>
>> Ralf touches a very intriguing argument here, which might just boil
>> this thread down to "telling others how to structure their wiki".
>> As someone who hasn't looked at the guides in question in ages, I
>> consider this form of entertainment questionably constructive as well.
>>
>> The Installation Guide is one of the few pages on the wiki that are
> locked and
> can only be edited by the staff. Changes can be made by gathering a
> consensus on
> the Talk page.
>
>
> /J
>
> --
>
> http://jasonwryan.com/
> GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
>
>

Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 08:47am, Martin Kühne via arch-general wrote:

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Ralf Mardorf  wrote:

Everybody is able to participate at the Arch wiki...


Ralf touches a very intriguing argument here, which might just boil
this thread down to "telling others how to structure their wiki".
As someone who hasn't looked at the guides in question in ages, I
consider this form of entertainment questionably constructive as well.


The Installation Guide is one of the few pages on the wiki that are locked and
can only be edited by the staff. Changes can be made by gathering a consensus on
the Talk page.

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/
GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40



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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 22/09/16 at 04:49am, mick wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:58:23 +1200
> Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:
> 
> > On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
> > >see below
> > >
> > >On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> > >arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> > >  
> > >> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new users,  
> > >
> > >I strongly agree.  
> > 
> > This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man pages and 
> > the
> > community provided documentation, ie., people for whom Arch is the wrong 
> > choice
> > anyway…
> > 
> > /J
> > 
> Unless you are already an arch install expert (the clear target of the 
> "Installation Guide as it stood about 15 months ago) you are unlikley to get 
> to a point where you can comfortably access the 'community provided 
> documention' let alone find examples that clarify things.

I have no idea why you introduce a straw man: the Installation Guide as
it stands now, not 15 months ago, is the subject of the discussion. And
a quick look at the history page will show you that it has changed
significantly in that time…

/J

-- 

http://jasonwryan.com/
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Re: [arch-general] What happened to the Beginner's Guide?

[Jason Ryan via arch-general]

On 21/09/16 at 09:53pm, Kyle Terrien via arch-general wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:58:23 +1200
> Jason Ryan via arch-general  wrote:
> > On 21/09/16 at 08:36pm, Dave via arch-general wrote:
> > >see below
> > >
> > >On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general <
> > >arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
> > >  
> > >> I believe this change will only serve to alienate potential new
> > >> users,  
> > >
> > >I strongly agree.  
> > 
> > This will only alienate new users that are unwilling to read man
> > pages and the community provided documentation, ie., people for whom
> > Arch is the wrong choice anyway…
> > 
> > /J
> > 
> 
> So, is making people hunt for information a ritualistic hazing?
> 
Hazing implies psychological, and often physical, harm. Please refrain
from this sort of hyperbole, it does your argument no favours and is
both unfounded and irrelevant; we are talking about installing an
operating system…

> As much as I love the Arch Wiki (and I really do because it is a great
> source of information), I don't understand why basic things like this
> change very often.  Removing the Beginner's Guide from the home page?
> This is just another Big Change made with the best of intentions.
> 
> Moving stuff around like this is like that supermarket that keeps
> reorganizing its shelves.  Everything is there, but it is in a
> different place, and you need to waste time looking for what you want.
> 
> Anecdote: when I installed Arch a few years ago, I followed both the
> Beginner's Guide and the Installation Guide simultaneously.  The duality
> was a little confusing, and I agree that if these guides can be merged
> in an elegant way, they should.
> 
> But I disagree with the "hazing" attitude.  The whole point of a wiki
> is to make information accessible.  Yes, while installing Arch for the
> first time you will definitely hunt for a lot of information.  It is a
> lot of hard work.  However, purposefully making that information harder
> to find is wrong; wikis are supposed make that job easier.
> 
See above about the “hazing attitude”. It is about simplifying the
information and making it easier to maintain. Having two guides, as I
said at the beginning of this thread, does neither prospective users nor
the wiki maintainers and good.

You seem to really be arguing for making the installation guide easier;
Arch is not intended to be easy, there are plenty of distributions that
have that goal and do it extremely well.

The current version of the wiki does make it easier, insofar as the
information is clear, organised efficiently, links to the authoritative 
source wherever possible (man pages) and contains no cruft.

What it no longer does is include lots of irrelevant information and
corner case examples, code to cut and paste and material that is
duplicated in multiple other pages on the wiki which makes it a
nightmare to maintain. That is a significant improvement.

No-one, me included, is pretending it is perfect. There is a Talk page
where people can discuss enhancements. Patches, as they say, are
welcome.

> I also think that expecting a new Arch user to know *exactly* what
> software configuration he wants is unreasonable.  I personally know
> many experienced Linux users (whom I consider far more experienced than
> myself) who can't tell you which desktop environment they prefer.
> However, they can blow your mind with their C and shell knowledge.
> 
> If/when these advanced users decide to learn more about distro innards
> and try Arch, we should welcome them, not haze them.
> 
Arch has from the start been clear about its goals and intentions. I'll
quote from a section of the wiki that people seem much less familiar
with:

”Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly,
Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The
distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it,
rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is
targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a
do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and
solve their own problems.”
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#User_centrality

/J

-- 

http://jasonwryan.com/
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