Re: 'Lost'
On 21 Mar 2008, at 03:24, Jim Sharkey wrote: Ronn! Blankenship wrote: One thing not unique to that show is that most viewers will not appreciate it when things happen which may be subplots or may be integral to the main plot but because it's an open-ended series Nope. It has an end. ABC and the Lost crew agreed to end the series around episode 100, give or take. Which probably has something to do with the way the plot has been moving forward at a greatly accelerated pace this season. End in sight Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Most people have more than the average number of legs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
William T Goodall wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: ABC and the Lost crew agreed to end the series around episode 100 Which probably has something to do with the way the plot has been moving forward at a greatly accelerated pace this season. Absolutely. Getting an official end date for the series was the best thing that could have happened to it. It avoids the X-Files scenario of just running out of things to do and lets everyone involved plan for the future a lot better. Jim Fans 1, Suckage 0 Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 05:52 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 05:12 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Dave Land wrote: It is true that 90% of Brin-L Posts are crap, too. Dave Self-Reverential Maru And my post here is one of the crap ones. :) Julia Figurative crap is like literal crap: if you try to hold it in and don't let it out on a regular basis, you will have bigger problems than if you let it out regularly . . . Which is why I'm on multiple mailing lists in which crap is tolerated, so I can spread it around and it doesn't get piled too high or deep. Julia So you are not working toward your Ph.D.? . . . ronn! :) Nope. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 05:51 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: Wait until seasons 1-4 are all out on DVD, then rent them and watch 4 to 8 episodes a week. Then you don't have to remember piddly details for months, just for a few weeks. :) Or chuck it and watch Law and Order instead . . . *Very* good plan, IMO! :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn! Blankenship wrote: Or chuck it and watch Law and Order instead . . . *Very* good plan, IMO! :) Not sure I agree. I've seen so many LO episodes over the past 10+ years that the twist is almost always obvious and it kind of ruins the show for me. And the mini-sermon wrap up at the end of the show has gotten grating. Might be familiarity breeding contempt, but still... Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
Jim Sharkey said the following on 3/21/2008 11:22 AM: Not sure I agree. I've seen so many LO episodes over the past 10+ years that the twist is almost always obvious and it kind of ruins the show for me. And the mini-sermon wrap up at the end of the show has gotten grating. Might be familiarity breeding contempt, but still... I'm liking the new episodes. Cutter has injected some new balls to the wall energy. -- Celebrate The Circle http://www.celebratethecircle.org/ Carolina Spirit Quest http://www.carolinaspiritquest.org/ GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
On Mar 20, 2008, at 12:52 PM, jon louis mann wrote: ... did I mention that as a result of the airwaves being filled with crap like 'Lost', I haven't owned a TV for about five years? Curtis. Garbage in garbage out Maru curtis, if you haven't owned a TV for five years, i guess you must rely on other sources of information to determine that 'lost' is crap? sturgeon's law states, 90% of everything is crap, including science fiction... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law i apply that law to the internet, television and just about everything (although the percentage may vary). here's the thing, if even 1% of what is on television is worth watching, why throw out the baby with the bath water? that's why i have tivo (and fast forward past the commercials). what i really should do is get rid of my laptop, because i waste too much time on e-mail, blogs, discussion groups, internet hoaxes, etc... It is true that 90% of Brin-L Posts are crap, too. Dave Self-Reverential Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Dave Land wrote: On Mar 20, 2008, at 12:52 PM, jon louis mann wrote: ... did I mention that as a result of the airwaves being filled with crap like 'Lost', I haven't owned a TV for about five years? Curtis. Garbage in garbage out Maru curtis, if you haven't owned a TV for five years, i guess you must rely on other sources of information to determine that 'lost' is crap? sturgeon's law states, 90% of everything is crap, including science fiction... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law i apply that law to the internet, television and just about everything (although the percentage may vary). here's the thing, if even 1% of what is on television is worth watching, why throw out the baby with the bath water? that's why i have tivo (and fast forward past the commercials). what i really should do is get rid of my laptop, because i waste too much time on e-mail, blogs, discussion groups, internet hoaxes, etc... It is true that 90% of Brin-L Posts are crap, too. Dave Self-Reverential Maru And my post here is one of the crap ones. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
At 04:49 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, jon louis mann wrote: I gave up on that show long ago. I just passed along the link fwiw when I came across it because iirc some discussion of the show sometime back when, and thought it might be of interest to somebody... (Lotsa other interesting things at that site, which was recently mentioned in the Bad Astronomy blog.) . . . ronn! ;) Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. ronn, when do you think 'lost' jumped the shark? i'm still still hooked, patiently waiting for resolution... . . . jon!~} One thing not unique to that show is that most viewers will not appreciate it when things happen which may be subplots or may be integral to the main plot but because it's an open-ended series rather than something like a mini-series or even a series like 24 where you know everything of significance has to come together by a certain date when the concluding episode of the mini-series or the season will air. Except to geeks who get caught up in the show and discuss it endlessly on the Internet (:P), having something interesting happen in one episode that is never referred to again until sometime the next season is frustrating, as is having an important part of this season's plotline depend on some obscure point from an episode which aired months ago or even in a previous season which you may have missed or if you saw the past episode don't recall that point. And as some of my posts to this list over the year may have indicated, I have an above-average memory for insignificant details about things I read, viewed, or experienced years or decades ago. Unless it is mighty compelling, however, I don't want to be forced to constantly trying to remember such things in order to understand what is going on in a TV show that airs once a week (and frequently not that often): I get enough of needing to remember details from months, years, or decades ago because they relate to something I am doing now in real life. When I want to be entertained, I prefer entertainment I can take or leave, rather than have to work at and constantly be wondering if this particular plot point is going nowhere or if I'm going to need to recall it in detail over a year from now. Also, I tire of constant flashbacks, particularly if they don't serve to illuminate something specific but again you are supposed to guess what character flaw is being illustrated in one of the characters that will turn out to be important in some future episode. (As I believe I have also mentioned here in the past, I am no fan of doing logic puzzles for the sake of doing logic puzzles. I prefer to hone my skills on real-world problems to which I want to know the answer (which may include problems from abstract math or theoretical physics or the design of extraterrestrial worlds or plot points for a story I am working on or something like that which others may not consider as having much to do with the real world but as I said still not just doing a problem with a known answer for the sake of doing the problem. No, I was never much a fan of homework, especially the busywork kind . . . ) But those are my gripes with the format. Perhaps some of the others who report watching the first several episodes or perhaps the first season and then losing interest can share their reasons . . . (hint, hint) . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
At 05:12 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Dave Land wrote: On Mar 20, 2008, at 12:52 PM, jon louis mann wrote: ... did I mention that as a result of the airwaves being filled with crap like 'Lost', I haven't owned a TV for about five years? Curtis. Garbage in garbage out Maru curtis, if you haven't owned a TV for five years, i guess you must rely on other sources of information to determine that 'lost' is crap? sturgeon's law states, 90% of everything is crap, including science fiction... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law i apply that law to the internet, television and just about everything (although the percentage may vary). here's the thing, if even 1% of what is on television is worth watching, why throw out the baby with the bath water? that's why i have tivo (and fast forward past the commercials). what i really should do is get rid of my laptop, because i waste too much time on e-mail, blogs, discussion groups, internet hoaxes, etc... It is true that 90% of Brin-L Posts are crap, too. Dave Self-Reverential Maru And my post here is one of the crap ones. :) Julia Figurative crap is like literal crap: if you try to hold it in and don't let it out on a regular basis, you will have bigger problems than if you let it out regularly . . . American Standard Maru . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: One thing not unique to that show is that most viewers will not appreciate it when things happen which may be subplots or may be integral to the main plot but because it's an open-ended series rather than something like a mini-series or even a series like 24 where you know everything of significance has to come together by a certain date when the concluding episode of the mini-series or the season will air. Except to geeks who get caught up in the show and discuss it endlessly on the Internet (:P), having something interesting happen in one episode that is never referred to again until sometime the next season is frustrating, as is having an important part of this season's plotline depend on some obscure point from an episode which aired months ago or even in a previous season which you may have missed or if you saw the past episode don't recall that point. And as some of my posts to this list over the year may have indicated, I have an above-average memory for insignificant details about things I read, viewed, or experienced years or decades ago. Unless it is mighty compelling, however, I don't want to be forced to constantly trying to remember such things in order to understand what is going on in a TV show that airs once a week (and frequently not that often): I get enough of needing to remember details from months, years, or decades ago because they relate to something I am doing now in real life. When I want to be entertained, I prefer entertainment I can take or leave, rather than have to work at and constantly be wondering if this particular plot point is going nowhere or if I'm going to need to recall it in detail over a year from now. Also, I tire of constant flashbacks, particularly if they don't serve to illuminate something specific but again you are supposed to guess what character flaw is being illustrated in one of the characters that will turn out to be important in some future episode. Wait until seasons 1-4 are all out on DVD, then rent them and watch 4 to 8 episodes a week. Then you don't have to remember piddly details for months, just for a few weeks. :) (Dan is renting Lost from Netflix now. The whole monster cam thing is really old, just after the pilot and 1 regular eposide, apparently.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 05:12 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Dave Land wrote: It is true that 90% of Brin-L Posts are crap, too. Dave Self-Reverential Maru And my post here is one of the crap ones. :) Julia Figurative crap is like literal crap: if you try to hold it in and don't let it out on a regular basis, you will have bigger problems than if you let it out regularly . . . Which is why I'm on multiple mailing lists in which crap is tolerated, so I can spread it around and it doesn't get piled too high or deep. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
At 05:51 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: Wait until seasons 1-4 are all out on DVD, then rent them and watch 4 to 8 episodes a week. Then you don't have to remember piddly details for months, just for a few weeks. :) Or chuck it and watch Law and Order instead . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
At 05:52 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 05:12 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008, Dave Land wrote: It is true that 90% of Brin-L Posts are crap, too. Dave Self-Reverential Maru And my post here is one of the crap ones. :) Julia Figurative crap is like literal crap: if you try to hold it in and don't let it out on a regular basis, you will have bigger problems than if you let it out regularly . . . Which is why I'm on multiple mailing lists in which crap is tolerated, so I can spread it around and it doesn't get piled too high or deep. Julia So you are not working toward your Ph.D.? . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
At 06:17 PM Thursday 3/20/2008, jon louis mann wrote: Wait until seasons 1-4 are all out on DVD, then rent them and watch 4 to 8 episodes a week. Then you don't have to remember piddly details for months, just for a few weeks. :) (Dan is renting Lost from Netflix now. The whole monster cam thing is really old, just after the pilot and 1 regular eposide, apparently.) Julia that's what computers are for! C dang, why didn't i think of that! all i have to do is stock up on munchies, turn off the phone, pop in the dvd, link my lap top to a giant hi def flat screen monitor (with bose speakers and surroundsound) and travel in time and space to another reality. who needs the real world!~) jon People who are not independently wealthy and as a result self-sufficient in perpetuity? . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: 'Lost'
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: One thing not unique to that show is that most viewers will not appreciate it when things happen which may be subplots or may be integral to the main plot but because it's an open-ended series Nope. It has an end. ABC and the Lost crew agreed to end the series around episode 100, give or take. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost et al
At 10:06 PM Thursday 9/22/2005, William T Goodall wrote: The success of _Lost_ gave us a batch of new shows. Having seen _Threshold_, _Surface_ and _Invasion_ I'm not too impressed. I thought _Supernatural_ was most fun. If nothing else, I watch it for the car. (My first car was a '67 Impala, with the 327 engine and 4 bbl. carb. Haven't been able to tell for sure which engine is in the car on the series.) As for _Lost_ - I was thinking it might have jumped the shark in the first few minutes, but by the end I was happy again :) At least something happened during the episode to move the story along. On the other hand/channel, the nicest thing to be said about E-Ring is E-Gad!!! Maybe Bruckheimer should stick to cloning C.S.I. . . . Yes I Have More Than One VCR Maru --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost DVD set question
Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend of mine bought the Lost DVD set. It has a pocket for a booklet, but no booklet. If anyone here has bought it and can state something about the existence or non-existence of a booklet therein, we'd be keenly interested in that information. There should be a booklet which contains a disk-by-disk episode guide. If you can't get a hold of one, I can try to scan mine and send it to you. -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost DVD set question
At 08:24 AM Saturday 9/17/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: A friend of mine bought the Lost DVD set. It has a pocket for a booklet, but no booklet. If anyone here has bought it and can state something about the existence or non-existence of a booklet therein, we'd be keenly interested in that information. No information on it, but a speculation: is it possible they used a generic container design which they have used/will use for other sets and therefore has such a pocket for use when they have something to use it for, or does it appear to be custom-built for the specific use only? --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
Has been renewed for another season, as has Alias. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
Runs five minutes long tonight for those who tape or Tivo. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC, 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
Gautam Mukunda wrote: the poker game between Jeremy and Natalie? I was never even in the game! I think almost every guy I know has had a moment like that one... I will definitely give you that one. It was a good bit. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am completely caught up in this show. Yes Thirded. What I find most amazing is taht an otherwise staid network like ABC was willing to take a chance on such an unusual show, especially on a weeknight. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
Gautam Mukunda wrote: Actually, Alias is the only reason I have forgiven ABC for canceling _Sports Night_, which remains one of the best television series ever. Really? Sports Night was OK, but sometimes those Sorkinism got to be a bit too much, especially the repeating things back to the people you're talking to thing. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
--- Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really? Sports Night was OK, but sometimes those Sorkinism got to be a bit too much, especially the repeating things back to the people you're talking to thing. Jim There was some of that, true enough. But, other than Two Cathedrals in the West Wing, have you ever seen _anything_ as good on television as, say, Isaac's commentary on the football players in Tennessee who refused to play under the Confederate flag or, even better, the poker game between Jeremy and Natalie? I was never even in the game! I think almost every guy I know has had a moment like that one... = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:50:16 -0600 (CST), Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gautam Mukunda wrote: Yes, in January. Until this season it was the only decent show ABC had. Guess the only show I'm following this season isn't decent, then. :) (NYPD Blue.) My wife and I used to follow NYPD Blue closely, but we gave up on it a few years ago after Andy became tragedy central - they killed off his wife and his partner, made him struggle with his alcoholism, and then had his kid get really sick (and I'm probably missing a thing or two) - and then we said enough. I like Andy a lot, and he's a good actor, but it got to be too much. And then there was also the patented NYPD Blue stilted speech pattern used by Medavoy and James that started driving me nuts after Rick Schroder came on and was doing it. We tapered off watching it after that and it's been quite a while since any episodes. Has it improved any? I was thinking that the constant tragedy they were surrounding Andy with must have settled down by now, but I just saw some comedian joking that people should be diving out of the way when they see Andy coming, so perhaps not. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
(great snippage; the topic at this point is NYPD Blue) On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Bryon Daly wrote: Has it improved any? I was thinking that the constant tragedy they were surrounding Andy with must have settled down by now, but I just saw some comedian joking that people should be diving out of the way when they see Andy coming, so perhaps not. It hasn't improved any as far as Andy being tragedy central, but I've been watching for years, this is the last season, and if there's gonna be a train wreck at the end, I want to see everything leading up to it. :) There are crises, but they don't hit you as hard with them as ER seems to do. (I watch ER sometimes, but I've given up following the character arcs.) Do you at least see any previews? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
In a message dated 11/12/2004 11:25:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way is Alias coming back? Yes, in January. Until this season it was the only decent show ABC had. I agree. And who says that conservatives and liberals cannot find common ground? Especially when it comes to see beautiful young women in outlandishly unrealitstic entertainments? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And who says that conservatives and liberals cannot find common ground? Especially when it comes to see beautiful young women in outlandishly unrealitstic entertainments? Wait, you mean that the real CIA doesn't operate like that? Damn. Actually, Alias is the only reason I have forgiven ABC for canceling _Sports Night_, which remains one of the best television series ever. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
In a message dated 11/13/2004 1:29:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wait, you mean that the real CIA doesn't operate like that? Damn. Actually, Alias is the only reason I have forgiven ABC for canceling _Sports Night_, which remains one of the best television series ever. Oh my god! oh my god! we agree on this as well. When I see the actors from Sports Night on other shows I keep hoping they will give that up and go back to their real (night) jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:56:09 -0600 (CST), Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Bryon Daly wrote: Has it improved any? I was thinking that the constant tragedy they were surrounding Andy with must have settled down by now, but I just saw some comedian joking that people should be diving out of the way when they see Andy coming, so perhaps not. It hasn't improved any as far as Andy being tragedy central, but I've been watching for years, this is the last season, and if there's gonna be a train wreck at the end, I want to see everything leading up to it. :) Train wreck, eh? Might be worth watching... :-) Do you at least see any previews? Not really - to be honest, until you said you still watch NYPD Blue, I wasn't sure it was still running! Between all the CSI and Law Order variants plus occasionally Monk, we don't spend much time watching ABC, I guess! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh my god! oh my god! we agree on this as well. When I see the actors from Sports Night on other shows I keep hoping they will give that up and go back to their real (night) jobs Yeah, no kidding. I just finished watching my DVDs of _Sports Night_. If you take the two seasons of that show and the first 2-3 seasons of the West Wing, that's got to be the longest run of sheer writing genius that any one person has ever put on television. I'm not sure that the writing on The West Wing was _ever_ as consistently good as Sports Night's was, actually. Don't you think that Jeremy was Aaron Sorkin's wish-fulfillment character? This dweebish Jewish guy who just has to walk onto the set to have both the most attractive woman in his workplace _and_ a porn star throw themselves at him? :-) I keep watching Natalie drool every time he acts geeky and think Wait, why don't _I_ meet women like that? :-) = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
In a message dated 11/13/2004 8:17:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don't you think that Jeremy was Aaron Sorkin's wish-fulfillment character? This dweebish Jewish guy who just has to walk onto the set to have both the most attractive woman in his workplace _and_ a porn star throw themselves at him? :-) I keep watching Natalie drool every time he acts geeky and think Wait, why don't _I_ meet women like that? :-) you need to become a writer and then it will happen on your shows and it is likely that attractive young actresses will want to play the parts of beautiful women who fall for jewish (well Indian) Dweebs. You will have your pick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost - TV Guide article
--- Gary Nunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As promised, here are scans of the TV Guide article about Lost. Beware, there are some minor spoilers here. Also, I couldn't help but notice that Evangeline Lilly has never appeared on the show with that very short mini skirt on Yet. http://www.europastation.com/gary/lost/ Hey man, thanks. Much appreciated. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
In a message dated 11/10/2004 11:07:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am completely caught up in this show. Yes ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
In a message dated 11/10/2004 11:19:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Details please? I don't get TV guide, but do like Lost, although it's no Alias. By the way is Alias coming back? = ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost: the TV series
By the way is Alias coming back? Yes, In January 2005. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/10/2004 11:19:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Details please? I don't get TV guide, but do like Lost, although it's no Alias. By the way is Alias coming back? Yes, in January. Until this season it was the only decent show ABC had. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/10/2004 11:19:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Details please? I don't get TV guide, but do like Lost, although it's no Alias. By the way is Alias coming back? Yes, in January. Until this season it was the only decent show ABC had. Guess the only show I'm following this season isn't decent, then. :) (NYPD Blue.) But considering the potential of butt-shots of Dennis Franz, well, maybe decent is not an appropriate adjective. (Anyone else see how Medavoy finally got some early this season?) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
On 11 Nov 2004, at 4:06 am, Gary Nunn wrote: Anyone else watching Lost? I am completely caught up in this show. It's pretty good. Other new shows I'm liking are 'Veronica Mars' and the new 'Battlestar Galactica' ... +++ Spoiler Warning The TV guide write-up last week gave it away that this will turn into a science fiction show by the end of the first season. It already is isn't it? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home. -- Ken Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost: the TV series
+++ Spoiler Warning The TV guide write-up last week gave it away that this will turn into a science fiction show by the end of the first season. It already is isn't it? -- William T Goodall Well... Not really. There is some strangeness going on, but nothing outright science fiction yet. Although I am impatiently waiting to hear the explanation for the polar bear. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost: the TV series
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, Gary Nunn wrote: +++ Spoiler Warning The TV guide write-up last week gave it away that this will turn into a science fiction show by the end of the first season. It already is isn't it? -- William T Goodall Well... Not really. There is some strangeness going on, but nothing outright science fiction yet. Although I am impatiently waiting to hear the explanation for the polar bear. Was there any Coca-Cola involved? :) Julia who is managing to keep up with NYPD Blue, and that's it, but has heard good things about Lost ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
No spoiler needed + + + + + + But it's fun doing this. In a message dated 11/11/2004 8:36:03 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Although I am impatiently waiting to hear the explanation for the polar bear. An escapee from Sherman's Lagoon? Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
On 11 Nov 2004, at 3:35 pm, Gary Nunn wrote: +++ Spoiler Warning The TV guide write-up last week gave it away that this will turn into a science fiction show by the end of the first season. It already is isn't it? -- William T Goodall Well... Not really. There is some strangeness going on, but nothing outright science fiction yet. Although I am impatiently waiting to hear the explanation for the polar bear. I read somewhere that some people who know about these things stopped watching the show after the pilot because it was too unrealistic since that was an *unsurvivable* crash. Last week one of the characters said as much. Locke not only regained the ability to walk, but is able to bound around killing wild boars and stuff. No muscle atrophy after years in a wheelchair? And so on. So it's either very very very silly *or* they have some clever explaining due. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who study history are doomed to repeat it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
--- Gary Nunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone else watching Lost? I am completely caught up in this show. +++ Spoiler Warning The TV guide write-up last week gave it away that this will turn into a science fiction show by the end of the first season. Details please? I don't get TV guide, but do like Lost, although it's no Alias. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost: the TV series - MAJOR SPOILER
SPOILER WARNING.. S P O I L E R S P A C E . . . I wrote The TV guide write-up last week gave it away that this will turn into a science fiction show by the end of the first season. Gautam wrote... Details please? I don't get TV guide, but do like Lost, although it's no Alias. I'll scan the TV Guide article and email it to you if you like... If anyone else wants it, email me and I'll send it to you too... The very, very short mini skirt that Evangeline Lilly is wearing on the TV Guide cover makes it worthwhile :-) Here is one small sample from the artice about the polar bear that was killed by Sawyer Eagle eyed viewers may have noticed a picture of a polar bear in the comic Walt was reading in episode 2. The prop was absolutely intentional. The comic is actually a Spanish Translation of Green Lantern/Flash: Faster Friends Part 1, chronicles the superheros attack on an alien that turns out to be peaceful.We definitely chose that story for a reason Here is the official website. http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index.html Here is an unofficial fan website http://www.lost-tv.com/ The article said that Jack (the doctor) was supposed to have been killed off in the first 30 minutes of the pilot episode by the giant, so instead they killed off the airplane pilot. The Executive Producer decided to keep Jack thinking that people would bond to him. The article also goes on to say that one major character will be killed off at the end of this season. Spoilers for the next two episodes Episode 09: Solitary Sayid's life is placed in grave danger after he stumbles upon the source of the mysterious French transmission. Meanwhile, Hurley has a ridiculous plan to make life on the island a little more civilized - and it just might work. Original US Airdate: 17 November 2004 Written by: David Fury Directed by: Greg Yaitanes Promo Pictures (30) | Screencaps Episode 10: Raised by Another Jack, Kate and Charlie wonder if Claire's disturbing nightmares might be coming true to threaten her life and the life of her unborn child, and a missing castaway returns with frightening news about what lies just beyond the mountains. Original US Airdate: 01 December 2004 Written by: Lynne E. Litt Directed by: Marita Grabiak Promo Pictures (19) | Screencaps ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost: the TV series
Not tonite. I just got the Call of Duty: United Offensive expansion. Has me really busy...tough even on easy! Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Legends Aussie Centurion Mk.5/1 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
At 01:52 PM 6/11/2003 -0400 Jon Gabriel wrote: When we removed the regime in power we were in charge of law enforcement until a native police force could be reestablished. It is obvious that the museums were inadequately secured and they were our responsibility. No, this is not obvious at all. I currently have seen no evidence that the Iraqi Museum was looted - especially in light of recent relvations that most of the antiquities from the Iraqi National Museum were stored in secure locations, such as a Top Secret vault below the Iraqi National Bank. Indeed, given the above fact, it seems far more likely that those 33 missing major pieces were lost completely outside of the invasion. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
At 01:31 PM 6/11/2003 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean, you HOPE we will find them. I don't care either way. I'm sorry, Tom, but I think that you are lying. You did not write your two messages in this thread in a way that gives that impression that you, quote, don't care either way. In fact, I think that you care very much whether or not Iraqi WMD's are found in Iraq, since this gives you another avenue with which to criticize George W. Bush. Never mind the fact that before the war, no credible person disputed that Iraq had not fully accounted for its WMD's and that it had not complied with the relevant UN Resolutions. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
Gautam Mukunda wrote: OK, so I guess we can make the people of Iraq a deal - we can find their lost stuff, plus, just as an extra special bonus, we'll bury their children alive in mass graves. Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. Jeeze, Gautam, you're logic (or lack thereof) completely escapes me here. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 09:49:16PM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: On what curve exactly are you grading, Erik? I don't grade on a curve, but I guess that explains your comments, you are curving 71 up to 100. I mean, come on! -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 11:55:36PM +1000, Ray Ludenia wrote: Yes, I know. Who am I to make these value judgements?? One of the traitor commie bastards that infests this list? :-) -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 11:55:36PM +1000, Ray Ludenia wrote: Yes, I know. Who am I to make these value judgements?? One of the traitor commie bastards that infests this list? :-) :) Thank you, Erik. I think the problem with this thread is that some people are seeing everything in black-and-white, or at least in sharper contrast than others, while the others are saying, This was good and this wasn't so good, and it would have been NICE if *everything* had been good, and the sooner mistakes are owned up to and corrected, the better it will be for the Iraqi people in both the short term and the long run. Or something to that effect. And refusal to acknowledge that maybe there were a couple of things that someone dropped the ball on, or justifying the little mistakes for the big picture, is irritating the heck out of some others and they're voicing their irritation. Personally, I'm glad Saddam has been deposed, but there are a few things I'm presently not entirely happy with; I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I'd like to see the bathwater acknowledged, and if it's exact volume *can* be determined, get an accurate report on that. (What bothers me on the whole museum-looting thing right now is that some things in the museum were *destroyed*. Theft which can be recovered isn't anywhere near as bad as destruction. And focusing on how many artifacts are or are not missing doesn't do a damn thing about the *destruction* that took place. Not that my opinion is going to *help* this discussion any right now, sigh.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 09:49:16PM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: On what curve exactly are you grading, Erik? I don't grade on a curve, but I guess that explains your comments, you are curving 71 up to 100. I mean, come on! Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I think my comments are based on a sense of historical perspective and an understanding of what is involved in building a stable democracy and society, as well as the resources available to the task. Other than some hypothetical perfection - and I'd like to see you (or anyone else) try to run something this complex at anything even vaguely approaching a similar level of success - what are you basing _your_ judgments on? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On 12 Jun 2003 at 8:40, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 09:49:16PM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: On what curve exactly are you grading, Erik? I don't grade on a curve, but I guess that explains your comments, you are curving 71 up to 100. I mean, come on! Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I think my comments are based on a sense of historical perspective and an understanding of what is involved in building a stable democracy and society, What would that be? I for one would certainly argue that every democracy so far has had a definate weakness in terms of long term planning and stability Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would that be? I for one would certainly argue that every democracy so far has had a definate weakness in terms of long term planning and stability Andy The oldest written Constitution in the world (the oldest single government in the world in some political science databases) is democratic (the United States). Britain has, depending on the definition you use, been a stable democracy since some time in the nineteenth century (most poli. sci. databases use the late 1860s, after some Reform Act or another - I can't at the moment recall which one). Since the Second World War, no democratic government with a per capita income (inflation adjusted) over $3000 / year has ever relapsed into dictatorship. The number may be a little low - it's been a while since I read Fareed Zakaria's work on the subject. In any case, the evidence seems to suggest that democratic governments are considerably more, not less, stable than their autocratic counterparts. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 08:40:12AM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: than some hypothetical perfection - and I'd like to see you (or anyone else) try to run something this complex at anything even vaguely approaching a similar level of success - what are you basing _your_ judgments on? If I thought I could do that, then I would be pursuing a political career. I can't (or at least won't), but I live in a democracy (no semantic arguments please, you know what I mean) of almost 300M people, one which I'm sure you'd agree has some of the most capable people ever to live on Earth. I expect a great deal from those chosen to lead our country, not perfection, but constantly striving towards perfection. I just don't see that happening with the current administration. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
-Original Message- From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 09:14 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This arguement is beneath you. The specific complaint about looting of the museum has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the war. This is not an either or question. One can rescue Iraqi children and protect antiquites. That is precisely the point. The looting was an instance of poor planning and Rumsfeld's response an example of the callousness of the administration. No, it's not. WHAT DAMN LOOTING 32 pieces. 3,033, actually.. but who's counting? The whole looting story was a lie. Let me see if I can understand your argument. All that news footage of Iraqis carrying off artifacts, Rumsfeld and others going on about the looting, the international antiquities community freaking out, it was all a photo-op by the Baathist Americans to discredit Bush? I'm really, really puzzled at the connection. I'm amazed how eagerly you attempt to use my comment that the loss of 3,033 important artifacts would be considered the heist of the century had it happened any place else or under anyone else's watch as a springboard to go off on a rant. Lighten up, Gautam. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
-Original Message- From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:16 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth --- Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would that be? I for one would certainly argue that every democracy so far has had a definate weakness in terms of long term planning and stability Andy The oldest written Constitution in the world (the oldest single government in the world in some political science databases) is democratic (the United States). Britain has, depending on the definition you use, been a stable democracy since some time in the nineteenth century (most poli. sci. databases use the late 1860s, after some Reform Act or another - I can't at the moment recall which one). Since the Second World War, no democratic government with a per capita income (inflation adjusted) over $3000 / year has ever relapsed into dictatorship. The number may be a little low - it's been a while since I read Fareed Zakaria's work on the subject. In any case, the evidence seems to suggest that democratic governments are considerably more, not less, stable than their autocratic counterparts. The Economist had an article with a similar thesis recently (past 3 weeks). -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 11:41 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: From _The Guardian_ (that bastion of pro-Bush propaganda): http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,974193,00.html As JDG has pointed out, the number of items currently believed to have been stolen is 33 and dropping. Truly the looting must have been terrible. There were a fair number of people who said some remarkably foolish things about the so-called looting of the Iraqi museum. Odds that any of them will even admit they were wrong? I do wonder, at some point will the credibility of these people just evaporate? I mean, will people say, gee, the people of Iraq _did_ celebrate when we arrived, Saddam _was_ defeated fairly easily, the country _didn't_ collapse into civil war, the museum _wasn't_ looted, and so on - at some point will the media say (as the public already has) that empirical reality and these people's beliefs are, let's be kind, orthogonal? Sorry my friend, but you'll have to wait about 25 years for something like that to happen, and even *that* might not be enough time. Humanity's capability for self-delusion knows no bounds. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On 12 Jun 2003 at 10:16, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would that be? I for one would certainly argue that every democracy so far has had a definate weakness in terms of long term planning and stability Andy The oldest written Constitution in the world (the oldest single government in the world in some political science databases) is democratic (the United States). Britain has, depending on the definition you use, been a stable democracy since some time in the nineteenth century (most poli. sci. databases use the late 1860s, after some Reform Act or another - I can't at the moment recall which one). Since the Second World War, no democratic government with a per capita income (inflation adjusted) over $3000 / year has ever relapsed into dictatorship. The number may be a little low - it's been a while since I read Fareed Zakaria's work on the subject. In any case, the evidence seems to suggest that democratic governments are considerably more, not less, stable than their autocratic counterparts. I don't necessarily view a codified constitution like the USA's as an advantage over an uncodified (it's not true to say that we don't HAVE one) like the UK. Also, until the middle of this century the UK was not really a democracy - the House of Lords could veto laws and the Monarchy had at least some power. Given the issues unresolved in a low of Democracies (Canada and Germany, by facing their issues, are perhaps IMO the closest to stability). I'n not call them stable - there is no long term continuity of policy. How this could be resolved is debateable. . Perhaps each year 1/3 or 1/4 of the MP's (or your equivalent) could be elected - that that would prevent goverments from enacting massively unpopular measures and getting away wtith it because they had several years to cover up the damage. I also, admitedly, like Germany's Partial List system. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
I do wonder, at some point will the credibility of these people just evaporate? I mean, will people say, gee, the people of Iraq _did_ celebrate when we arrived, Saddam _was_ defeated fairly easily, the country _didn't_ collapse into civil war, the museum _wasn't_ looted, and so on - at some point will the media say (as the public already has) that empirical reality and these people's beliefs are, let's be kind, orthogonal? I have no problem admitting all of that. Will the Bush administration ever admit that they cannot find the WMD they swore up and down they knew exactly where they were? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
-Original Message- From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 08:42 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth From _The Guardian_ (that bastion of pro-Bush propaganda): http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,974193,00.html As JDG has pointed out, the number of items currently believed to have been stolen is 33 and dropping. If the Smithsonian lost 33 major items and over 3,000 minor items, you better believe it'd be called the heist of the century. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do wonder, at some point will the credibility of these people just evaporate? I mean, will people say, gee, the people of Iraq _did_ celebrate when we arrived, Saddam _was_ defeated fairly easily, the country _didn't_ collapse into civil war, the museum _wasn't_ looted, and so on - at some point will the media say (as the public already has) that empirical reality and these people's beliefs are, let's be kind, orthogonal? I have no problem admitting all of that. Will the Bush administration ever admit that they cannot find the WMD they swore up and down they knew exactly where they were? Tom Beck You know, Tom, given your previous record on predictions in Iraq, do you think you might want to be a little more careful with statements like the above? Just a thought. I mean, if we do find them - and I still think the odds are pretty good that we will - what will you hate Bush foreign policy for then? Gautam = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
You know, Tom, given your previous record on predictions in Iraq, do you think you might want to be a little more careful with statements like the above? Just a thought. I mean, if we do find them - and I still think the odds are pretty good that we will - what will you hate Bush foreign policy for then? You mean, you HOPE we will find them. I don't care either way. I'm glad Saddam is gone, and I didn't object to getting rid of him. On the other hand, we were obviously not prepared for what comes next, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. And if we DON'T find WMD - if it turns out they really did cook the intelligence - then what? If they fooled themselves - if they sincerely believed what turns out to be very thin evidence - that does not bode all that well for the future, you know. And if they fooled us - if they knew the evidence was thin but deliberately overstated the case as a pretext for an invasion - that doesn't bode very well either. I know this won't convince any of the huffing-and-puffing Mighty America true believers who dream of an Imperial USA bossing around the rest of the world (for its own good), but the argument that, even if we never find WMD - even if the Bushies really did know beforehand there weren't any - it's okay because we got rid of the big meanie Saddam (with no real preparation for what would replace him) - I don't buy that. If that's truly the reason we invaded - WHY NOT TELL THE TRUTH? Why lie about the WMD? I'm glad Saddam is gone. I've never said otherwise. I'm glad the war itself went smoothly, although the post-war is starting to turn very very nasty. But at what point do you admit there aren't any WMD? You see, Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Powell/Wolfowitz/Perle/etc. said before the invasion that they knew exactly where the WMD were and it was basically a matter of conquering the country and opening up the storage sites to prove to the world. So where are they? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the Smithsonian lost 33 major items and over 3,000 minor items, you better believe it'd be called the heist of the century. -j- OK, so I guess we can make the people of Iraq a deal - we can find their lost stuff, plus, just as an extra special bonus, we'll bury their children alive in mass graves. Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. Gautam = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean, you HOPE we will find them. I don't care either way. I'm glad Saddam is gone, and I didn't object to getting rid of him. On the other hand, we were obviously not prepared for what comes next, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. Really? My information - which has done pretty well so far, hasn't it - says that we were well prepared. Things aren't great in Baghdad, but, to be blunt, only someone like you could think that we would go in and magically all these Ba'athists and Sunnis who had been benefiting from the regime would be so happy to see it gone. And if we DON'T find WMD - if it turns out they really did cook the intelligence - then what? If they fooled themselves - if they sincerely believed what turns out to be very thin evidence - that does not bode all that well for the future, you know. And if they fooled us - if they knew the evidence was thin but deliberately overstated the case as a pretext for an invasion - that doesn't bode very well either. So, Tom, all the statements by President Clinton about WMD, were those lies as well? And lots of other people, for that matter: [W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs. -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998 Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed. -- Madeline Albright, 1998 The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability. -- Robert Byrd, October 2002 What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs. -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002 The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow. -- Bill Clinton in 1998 In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security. -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002 I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out. -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003 Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people. -- Tom Daschle in 1998 I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction. -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002 Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. -- Al Gore, 2002 We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. -- Bob Graham, December 2002 We have known for many years that Saddam
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
-Original Message- From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 10:32 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth --- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the Smithsonian lost 33 major items and over 3,000 minor items, you better believe it'd be called the heist of the century. -j- OK, so I guess we can make the people of Iraq a deal - we can find their lost stuff, plus, just as an extra special bonus, we'll bury their children alive in mass graves. I don't understand a word of that :) Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. I'm merely pointing out the lack of perspective in saying that the loss of only 33 major artifacts and only 3,000 minor artifacts is nothing to be concerned with. I don't understand how that equates to burying the children of Iraq alive. :) -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) --- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the Smithsonian lost 33 major items and over 3,000 minor items, you better believe it'd be called the heist of the century. -j- OK, so I guess we can make the people of Iraq a deal - we can find their lost stuff, plus, just as an extra special bonus, we'll bury their children alive in mass graves. Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. The point he's making is a valid one. He didn't say we shouldn't have liberated Iraq in this thread. When we removed the regime in power we were in charge of law enforcement until a native police force could be reestablished. It is obvious that the museums were inadequately secured and they were our responsibility. We definitely screwed up in allowing the museums to be looted. You know, looting and even rioting could have been easily predicted when we liberated Iraq. Quite honestly, I was surprised the changeover went so smoothly. Jon _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. I'm merely pointing out the lack of perspective in saying that the loss of only 33 major artifacts and only 3,000 minor artifacts is nothing to be concerned with. I don't understand how that equates to burying the children of Iraq alive. :) -j- Because that's where they were a little while ago. We just dug up a mass grave with hundreds of children in it, _buried alive_ by the Hussein regime. I'm not making this stuff up. Now, I don't happen to believe that most of the losses at the Museum had _anything_ to do with the invasion. The Ba'ath regime had been plundering that country for a generation. They appointed Ba'ath party flunkies to run the museum. Why anyone was foolish enough to think that they were telling the truth - that the museum had been looted after the invasion - completely escapes me. But let's suppose it was. Let's suppose that the invasion was the trigger for looting the museum. So what? I mean, really, so what? Given the two alternatives, which one was preferable? Now we know that the museum _wasn't_ plundered. Despite the hysterical claims of many people - no few of them on this list - at most, a small amount of its collection was stolen. Something which, may I point out, I said was probably the case _as soon as reports of the thefts came out_. Compared to what the invasion stopped, so what? The only reason this is an issue at all is that people were so desperate to believe bad things of Americans in general and Bush in particular that they credulously grabbed onto this story as something they could use to diminish an astonishing achievement. Now, even that has been taken away, and what we're seeing is the remarkable extent to which the war's opponents were practicing nothing more nor less than the politics of bad faith - defending a tyrant simply for their own spite and domestic political battles. So I return to my question about credibility. All the people who talked about the looting of the Museum as a cultural catastrophe akin to destroying the Louvre or the Smithsonian or what have you - given their dismal record, when do we stop listening to them entirely? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The point he's making is a valid one. He didn't say we shouldn't have liberated Iraq in this thread. When we removed the regime in power we were in charge of law enforcement until a native police force could be reestablished. It is obvious that the museums were inadequately secured and they were our responsibility. We definitely screwed up in allowing the museums to be looted. If they had been looted, we would have screwed up, maybe. I don't know what constraints we were operating under. But they weren't looted. _At most_ a miniscule proportion of the Museum's items were taken, certainly by insiders, and almost certainly before American soldiers ever arrived in Baghdad. What could we possibly have done to stop that? You know, looting and even rioting could have been easily predicted when we liberated Iraq. Quite honestly, I was surprised the changeover went so smoothly. Jon Me too - well, not surprised, per se, but impressed and pleased. But the Administration's opponents have seized on this damn Museum issue as a way of, first attacking the war in general, and second, attacking the reconstruction effort, when it is, in fact, going much better than a fair observer would have expected. So I'm not ashamed to take a special pleasure in pointing out that the Museum thing _didn't happen_ - it was a myth created by credulous people eager to believe the worst of the United States and the Bush Administration, and its revelation as a myth is something that should further lessen their credibility, if there was any left. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
An interesting essay, Gautam, but still doesn't explain how my pointing out that the missing artifacts are in fact one of the biggest losses in museum history (outside outright descrution) is somehow equated with burying children alive, as you claim I want to have happen: OK, so I guess we can make the people of Iraq a deal - we can find their lost stuff, plus, just as an extra special bonus, we'll bury their children alive in mass graves. Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. -j- -Original Message- From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:30 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: RE: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth --- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. I'm merely pointing out the lack of perspective in saying that the loss of only 33 major artifacts and only 3,000 minor artifacts is nothing to be concerned with. I don't understand how that equates to burying the children of Iraq alive. :) -j- Because that's where they were a little while ago. We just dug up a mass grave with hundreds of children in it, _buried alive_ by the Hussein regime. I'm not making this stuff up. Now, I don't happen to believe that most of the losses at the Museum had _anything_ to do with the invasion. The Ba'ath regime had been plundering that country for a generation. They appointed Ba'ath party flunkies to run the museum. Why anyone was foolish enough to think that they were telling the truth - that the museum had been looted after the invasion - completely escapes me. But let's suppose it was. Let's suppose that the invasion was the trigger for looting the museum. So what? I mean, really, so what? Given the two alternatives, which one was preferable? Now we know that the museum _wasn't_ plundered. Despite the hysterical claims of many people - no few of them on this list - at most, a small amount of its collection was stolen. Something which, may I point out, I said was probably the case _as soon as reports of the thefts came out_. Compared to what the invasion stopped, so what? The only reason this is an issue at all is that people were so desperate to believe bad things of Americans in general and Bush in particular that they credulously grabbed onto this story as something they could use to diminish an astonishing achievement. Now, even that has been taken away, and what we're seeing is the remarkable extent to which the war's opponents were practicing nothing more nor less than the politics of bad faith - defending a tyrant simply for their own spite and domestic political battles. So I return to my question about credibility. All the people who talked about the looting of the Museum as a cultural catastrophe akin to destroying the Louvre or the Smithsonian or what have you - given their dismal record, when do we stop listening to them entirely? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 02:35:34PM -0700, Miller, Jeffrey wrote: An interesting essay, Gautam, but still doesn't explain how my pointing out that the missing artifacts are in fact one of the biggest losses in museum history (outside outright descrution) is somehow equated with burying children alive, as you claim I want to have happen: OK, so I guess we can make the people of Iraq a deal - we can find their lost stuff, plus, just as an extra special bonus, we'll bury their children alive in mass graves. Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. I believe he is operating under a false dichotomy: Gautam implies there can only be 2 possibilities: either a tyrant in charge of Iraq and the museum safe but children being killed, or the tyrant deposed/children no longer being killed and the museum not guarded well enough to prevent some major thefts. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 10:20:50PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This arguement is beneath you. The specific complaint about looting of the museum has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the war. This is not an either or question. One can rescue Iraqi children and protect antiquites. That is precisely the point. The looting was an instance of poor planning and Rumsfeld's response an example of the callousness of the administration. I think I first learned of this technique while reading Ender's Game. When a politician accomplishes something that most would consider worthwhile, they like to set up a false dichotomy such that the ONLY possible way the good they accomplished could have happened is the exact way they did it, no other way was possible, especially no BETTER way. You start with it worked and put the spin on it from there. The head of the flight school said something along these lines to Ender's teacher. (I might have that backwards) Since I read that years ago, I have frequently noted the technique being used by politicians. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This arguement is beneath you. The specific complaint about looting of the museum has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the war. This is not an either or question. One can rescue Iraqi children and protect antiquites. That is precisely the point. The looting was an instance of poor planning and Rumsfeld's response an example of the callousness of the administration. No, it's not. WHAT DAMN LOOTING 32 pieces. Most (if not all) of them probably stolen before American troops even arrived. The whole looting story was a lie. A contemptible slander made up by Ba'athist thugs and believed by people desperate to deny that - over their opposition - a great and good thing was done. Believed and spread about by people who did everything they could to protect Saddam Hussein, nothing more nor less. What this is is an example of how pathetic - how contemptible and vile - so much of the left has become. Nothing more than that. The only reason anyone is paying attention to this is as a way of attacking the liberation of Iraq. After being shown, time and time again, as credulous fools who would believe anything, anything at all, so long as it showed the United States in a bad light, we see - once again, not for the first, and not for the last time - that even here, people who trumped this up were wrong. They couldn't even scrounge up a _true_ story - they had to believe Ba'athist stooges who were covering their own tracks for inside job thefts. The only part of this argument that is beneath me is the fact that I'm wasting my time on it. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 10:20:50PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I first learned of this technique while reading Ender's Game. When a politician accomplishes something that most would consider worthwhile, they like to set up a false dichotomy such that the ONLY possible way the good they accomplished could have happened is the exact way they did it, no other way was possible, especially no BETTER way. You start with it worked and put the spin on it from there. The head of the flight school said something along these lines to Ender's teacher. (I might have that backwards) Since I read that years ago, I have frequently noted the technique being used by politicians. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, it's about perspective. In the Second World War we blew the hell out of Monte Cassino - for no good reason at all. In the view of the people making this argument, I suppose that makes Franklin Roosevelt a barbarian who plundered the cultural heritage of Italy. Shame on everyone who spent time on this - myself included for wasting time and energy on such a trivial issue. Of all the things that happened in Baghdad for the last year, the theft (that may or may not have happened) of 33 artifacts is surely far down the list of importance. The only reason this is an issue is an attempt by the defenders of Saddam to trump up something, anything, to hide the catastrophic failure of their beliefs. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 09:16:56PM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: trivial issue. Of all the things that happened in Baghdad for the last year, the theft (that may or may not have happened) of 33 artifacts is surely far down the list of importance. Agreed. There were much more important mistakes made by Americans after the war. You know I supported the war, so you can't make those claims about me that you made about some others. Just because I supported the war, however, doesn't mean that I turn a blind eye to mistakes. They can, and could have done better. As many people predicted, the resources to rebuild and govern Iraq do not flow nearly as freely as those to depose Saddam, and the plan for rebuilding was not sufficient since the Administration underestimated the problem (as many people predicted). They did great good in deposing Saddam, but they need to do better in rebuilding and governing and allocating resources to Iraq. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Agreed. There were much more important mistakes made by Americans after the war. You know I supported the war, so you can't make those claims about me that you made about some others. Just because I supported the war, however, doesn't mean that I turn a blind eye to mistakes. They can, and could have done better. As many people predicted, the resources to rebuild and govern Iraq do not flow nearly as freely as those to depose Saddam, and the plan for rebuilding was not sufficient since the Administration underestimated the problem (as many people predicted). They did great good in deposing Saddam, but they need to do better in rebuilding and governing and allocating resources to Iraq. Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] On what curve exactly are you grading, Erik? I mean, come on. This country was devastated by 25 years of brutal government, 12 years of shattering sanctions, and losing three major wars. Despite that, the whole place didn't collapse into civil wars, there haven't been mass famines, anarchy, anything. I am stunned by how well things are going, not how poorly. Would I prefer it if, in a perfect world, we had more troops in Iraq? Certainly. Find them for me. Go pick out which units of the American military are available to deploy to Iraq - and which committments we should abandon in order to fill that need. We are _stretched out_. We've been cutting the size of the military for 13 years now and guess what - this is why that might not have been a great idea. By any reasonable standard of reconstructing a country, this has been an extraordinary performance. Pretty much everywhere outside of Baghdad and Tikrit, things actually seem to be going pretty well. Maybe they will go south in the future - I don't know. But so far, by any standard other than some mythical perfection, things are going remarkably well. Compare Baghdad to Berlin in 1945 and tell me again how poorly the reconstruction is going. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
