subject:"Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced"

With respect to the organizers of this contest, to Fusebox, and to you
Sandra...this is a poor idea.

This is basically asking people to work for free, with only a chance of the
possibility of winning the contest. It's called Spec Work and it's a bad
practice.

Would any of the programmers on this list write CODE for free were this
contest geared towards that?

I'm not saying that a contest in and of itself is bad, but asking people to
do work for free IS bad and it's unprofessional. Even straight up asking
people to do pro bono work would be better than your current method. I'm
just asking you to consider the message that this is sending the web
professionals on this list.

Andy Matthews
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Office:  877.707.5467 x747
Direct:  615.627.9747
Fax:  615.467.6249
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.dealerskins.com

-Original Message-
From: Sandra Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:53 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: SOT: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Fusebox is going to get a facelift and we need your help.

Things are really starting to happen within Team Fusebox and one of the main
goals is to start off fresh with a new and improved website. New content,
new everything. Including a new look. Since for the most part, we are
programmers and not designers, we need your help. So we are announcing the
first ever Fusebox Website design contest.

* Site submittals will close on March 8, 2007, 5pm EST. Submittals after
this time will not be accepted.
* A winner will be announced on March 29, 2007.

Interested? head over to
http://trac.fuseboxframework.org/fusebox/wiki/WebSiteDesignRequirements for
the complete set of rules, design requirements and submittal information.

What do you get out of it? You mean besides the warm fuzzy feeling that
comes from contributing to the community? Isn't that enough? No? Well then
how about:

* 2 Free passes to CFOBjective , held in Minneapolis, Minnesota, May 3 -
6, 2007 (courtesy of Jared Rypka-Hauer)
* 1 Free pass to CFUNITED, held in Bethesda, Maryland, June 27 - 30,
2007 (courtesy of Michael Smith of Teratech)
* Site designed by: with corresponding link on the footer of the home
page

Feel free to blog this or put this on other sites. The more response we get
to this, the better the site will be.

Sandra Clark
==
http://www.shayna.com
Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility





~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269329
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

RE: SOT: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Sandra Clark

I'm not a designer.  I can do radical CSS from an already designed layout,
but I don't do well coming up with concepts.   


Sandra Clark
==
http://www.shayna.com
Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility


-Original Message-
From: Jacob Munson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:05 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: SOT: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

 Since for the most part, we are programmers and not designers, we need
your help.

Wait a minute...I know you are a CF programmer too, Sandra, but I've always
thought you were the best designer in our community!  What do you mean
you're not a designer?  Or is that for the most part
comment meant to exclude you from the we?  ;)


--
My Sites:
http://www.techfeed.net/blog/
http://www.cfquickdocs.com/
http://cfformprotect.riaforge.org/



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269330
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

RE: SOT: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Joshua Cyr

Way way way back in the beginning of fusebox I helped with the first site.
I was just searching around for a copy of it, but alas it is no longer.
However archive.org has a cache of it.
http://web.archive.org/web/19990125095504/http://www.fusebox.org/

Kind of fun to look through now and see how much has changed and not.

For some reason the archive didn't get the images of the site (there were
very few).

Anyone else have the original copy?  Steve?

Joshua Cyr
Savvy Software
866.870.6358
www.besavvy.com



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269331
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread So Kenfused

I disagree.

If someone wants to help, show the world what they can do, or whatever
their reasoning why not? It's no different than a photo contest, art
contest or the contest Ray Camden runs occasionally for showing off what
you can do with your programing skills.

It's a contest with prizes for the winner. If you have enough time and
are so inclined power to you.

Andy Matthews wrote:
With respect to the organizers of this contest, to Fusebox, and to you
Sandra...this is a poor idea.

This is basically asking people to work for free, with only a chance of the
possibility of winning the contest. It's called Spec Work and it's a bad
practice.

Would any of the programmers on this list write CODE for free were this
contest geared towards that?

I'm not saying that a contest in and of itself is bad, but asking people to
do work for free IS bad and it's unprofessional. Even straight up asking
people to do pro bono work would be better than your current method. I'm
just asking you to consider the message that this is sending the web
professionals on this list.

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269333
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I understand that...but THOSE contests are bad practices as well.

If you WANT to work for free then by all means you should do so. If you
believe in supporting the Fusebox group and their excellent codebase then
you should ALSO do so. But putting out a contest, asking people to work for
free is a bad idea, and not something that   the community should support.

Here's a list of articles discussing spec work and it's effects on the
design community. Bear in mind that this ALSO affects the programming
community. It basically devalues your work product. If you're willing to
work for free this time, then why should you be charging me $65 per hour
the next time.

http://www.no-spec.com/archives/i-wish-i-had-written-this/

http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0104h.shtml

http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/

http://designforum.aiga.org/content.cfm?ContentAlias=_getfullarticleaid=115
5318

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?CategoryID=105





-Original Message-
From: So Kenfused [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:43 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I disagree. 

If someone wants to help, show the world what they can do, or whatever their
reasoning why not?  It's no different than a photo contest, art contest or
the contest Ray Camden runs occasionally for showing off what you can do
with your programing skills.

It's a contest with prizes for the winner.  If you have enough time and are
so inclined power to you.


Andy Matthews wrote:
 With respect to the organizers of this contest, to Fusebox, and to you
 Sandra...this is a poor idea.

 This is basically asking people to work for free, with only a chance of
the
 possibility of winning the contest. It's called Spec Work and it's a bad
 practice.

 Would any of the programmers on this list write CODE for free were this
 contest geared towards that?

 I'm not saying that a contest in and of itself is bad, but asking people
to
 do work for free IS bad and it's unprofessional. Even straight up asking
 people to do pro bono work would be better than your current method. I'm
 just asking you to consider the message that this is sending the web
 professionals on this list.

   




~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269334
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

This is basically asking people to work for free, with only a chance of the
possibility of winning the contest. It's called Spec Work and it's a bad
practice.

Actually, it's a community open source project and everyone involved 
contributes their time, ideas and code (and in this case graphic design skills) 
for free. That's how open source projects work all around the world - people 
willing to offer their time and energy for the greater good. It's how all the 
frameworks for ColdFusion got built, it's how BlogCFC and all those other 
useful applications got built.

There's no scam here - everyone knows exactly what they're getting into. No one 
is being forced to work for free...

Sean A Corfield
http://corfield.org/

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269335
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I understand that...but THOSE contests are bad practices as well.

If you WANT to work for free then by all means you should do so. If you
believe in supporting the Fusebox group and their excellent codebase then
you should ALSO do so. But putting out a contest, asking people to work for
free is a bad idea, and not something that the community should support.

But wouldn't the only people who are work for free be those people
who believe in supporting the Fusebox group and their excellent
codebase?

I think the contest is a perfectly fine idea. If people don't want to
enter, nobody's twisting their arm. What the community should or
should not support will likely be determined by...well, by the
community. If nobody enters, nobody wanted to work for free and the
community has spoken. But it could work the other way too.

Here's a list of articles discussing spec work and it's effects on the
design community. Bear in mind that this ALSO affects the programming
community. It basically devalues your work product. If you're willing to
work for free this time, then why should you be charging me $65 per hour
the next time.

That's silly. It doesn't devalue my work if I choose to donate my
work to a cause that I'm behind. If I got paid $50 an hour for my
last job, and somebody come along and offers me $75 an hour for my
next job, should I say, no, no...i worked for $50 last time so why
should i be charging you $75?

I should be charging whatever my going rate is whenever I choose to
charge that rate. When I choose to donate my work, it's just that. A
donation. I don't believe one affects the other.

Lots of folks donated their time to building fusebox. I still think
they deserve to make some money in the future in spite of that fact :)

--
Charlie Griefer

...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269336
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Raymond Camden

Andy, there are some good responses here already, but I'd like to add
my two cents as well.

First off - I am not an open source zealot. There are folks who would
rather die then use commercial software, even if it saves then
hundreds of hours of development time. I think that is plain stupid.

That being said - open source is a wonderful way to distribute the
work load of a project. I know my projects get a _lot_ of help from
the community and gain a lot of strength from the constant bug fixes
and updates people share.

Maybe I'm alone - but most of the business I have now stems from the
fact that I give away applications and blog daily (except today ;). So
giving away code for free has certainly not hindered my earning
potential.

About the contests I don't really think they are even in the same
league. The contests I ran were to talk about how programmers solve
problems. I've been coding ColdFusion for 200 years or so (give or
take a few years) and I find that I can still learn from the guy who
picked it up last week. I wasn't asking folks to code for free. I was
asking folks to build something small, share it, and let me (and my
readers) critique it so we can all learn. It's about learning - not
commerce.

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I understand that...but THOSE contests are bad practices as well.

--
===
Raymond Camden

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog : ray.camdenfamily.com
AOL IM : cfjedimaster

Video game player? Have kids? Check out KidGamers.org

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269338
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

You've never won a contest, have you?

The mere fact you posted here would lead one to believe you frequent these
lists to elicit or supply help to others. The fact that you do this
devalues any help you may seek, or others offer, elsewhere, and I think you
should stop it.

I think this contest, and Ray's contestes, are a great idea.. As a winner of
one of Ray's contests, I can tell you, the prizes, exposure and most
importantly, knowledge, gained far outweighed the time spent on the contest.

Hell, if I had any design skills, I;d be tempted to enter this one.

Get over it dude, no one is so good they cannot do Pro Bono work from time
to time, especially when its for a community supported project.

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I understand that...but THOSE contests are bad practices as well.

If you WANT to work for free then by all means you should do so. If you
believe in supporting the Fusebox group and their excellent codebase then
you should ALSO do so. But putting out a contest, asking people to work
for
free is a bad idea, and not something that the community should support.

http://www.no-spec.com/archives/i-wish-i-had-written-this/

http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0104h.shtml

http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/

http://designforum.aiga.org/content.cfm?ContentAlias=_getfullarticleaid=115
5318

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?CategoryID=105

--
Scott Stroz

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269339
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Ray...

Please don't take my comments earlier to mean that I was talking about your
contenst. Heck, I entered your Blackjack contest and won a WACK book. But I
didn't care about the prize...I just wanted to try my hand at a coding
challenge. I ended up winning, but more importantly (and one of the reasons
why I entered) was to have my code (and my methods) evaluated publicly. That
to me was more valuable than the book.

I'm also not saying that Open source isn't valuable. I'm a big fan of open
source and would RATHER use something created by a community as I think in
the end it's going to be more solid AND more indicative of what the people
actually want.

andy 

-Original Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:33 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Andy, there are some good responses here already, but I'd like to add my two
cents as well.

First off - I am not an open source zealot. There are folks who would rather
die then use commercial software, even if it saves then hundreds of hours of
development time. I think that is plain stupid.

That being said - open source is a wonderful way to distribute the work load
of a project. I know my projects get a _lot_ of help from the community and
gain a lot of strength from the constant bug fixes and updates people share.

Maybe I'm alone - but most of the business I have now stems from the fact
that I give away applications and blog daily (except today ;). So giving
away code for free has certainly not hindered my earning potential.

About the contests I don't really think they are even in the same
league. The contests I ran were to talk about how programmers solve
problems. I've been coding ColdFusion for 200 years or so (give or take a
few years) and I find that I can still learn from the guy who picked it up
last week. I wasn't asking folks to code for free. I was asking folks to
build something small, share it, and let me (and my
readers) critique it so we can all learn. It's about learning - not
commerce.


On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I understand that...but THOSE contests are bad practices as well.

 If you WANT to work for free then by all means you should do so. If 
 you believe in supporting the Fusebox group and their excellent 
 codebase then you should ALSO do so. But putting out a contest, asking
people to work for
 free is a bad idea, and not something that   the community should support.

 Here's a list of articles discussing spec work and it's effects on the 
 design community. Bear in mind that this ALSO affects the programming 
 community. It basically devalues your work product. If you're willing 
 to work for free this time, then why should you be charging me $65 
 per hour the next time.

--
===
Raymond Camden

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog  : ray.camdenfamily.com
AOL IM : cfjedimaster

Video game player? Have kids? Check out KidGamers.org



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269340
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I assumed your comment:

I understand that...but THOSE contests are bad practices as well.

was in response to:

It's no different than a photo contest, art
contest or the contest Ray Camden runs occasionally for showing off what
you can do with your programing skills.

So even if you thought it was bad practice, you entered anyway? And you want
ray to believe you weren't talking about his contests? I think you can see
where he, and others, might think you were.

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ray...

Please don't take my comments earlier to mean that I was talking about
your
contenst. Heck, I entered your Blackjack contest and won a WACK book. But
I
didn't care about the prize...I just wanted to try my hand at a coding
challenge. I ended up winning, but more importantly (and one of the
reasons
why I entered) was to have my code (and my methods) evaluated publicly.
That
to me was more valuable than the book.

I'm also not saying that Open source isn't valuable. I'm a big fan of open
source and would RATHER use something created by a community as I think in
the end it's going to be more solid AND more indicative of what the people
actually want.

andy

--
Scott Stroz

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269341
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Actually, I've won plenty of contests, one of them put on by Ray (the
Blackjack contest). I've also won design contests and logo contests
sponsored by Sitepoint. But that was before I realized what people were
really asking for.

People place such little value on design that they think it's acceptable to
ask someone to design a site so that you can put it in your portfolio, or
I'll pay you if I make money, or enter to win this great design contest.
The thing is that this world couldn't function without design. From stop
signs, to maps, to the directory in the Mall, or even the icons Eclipse.

Your comments about my participation on CF-Talk are absurd and I won't even
reply to them.

I have ZERO problem with Pro Bono work. Did you completely overlook my last
post which said do it pro bono instead of entering a contest. I think that
doing pro bono work for the Fusebox site is a wonderful idea and I heartily
recommend that SOMEONE pick up their request and do the site design for
free. If the Fusebox group then decides to reward your time with those
tickets than that's awesome. But if you're doing the work as Pro Bono then
you weren't expecting anything now were you?

I'm simply saying that this contest devalues the overall work product
because it expects that people would be willing to work towards a prize that
they might not win. Disagree with me or not, this is something that EVERY
professional design organization frowns upon. Make sure to read through the
links that I posted.



Andy Matthews
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Office:  877.707.5467 x747
Direct:  615.627.9747
Fax:  615.467.6249
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.dealerskins.com

-Original Message-
From: Scott Stroz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:35 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

You've never won a contest, have you?

The mere fact you posted here would lead one to believe you frequent these
lists to elicit or supply help to others.  The fact that you do this
devalues any help you may seek, or others offer, elsewhere, and I think you
should stop it.

I think this contest, and Ray's contestes, are a great idea.. As a winner of
one of Ray's contests, I can tell you, the prizes, exposure and most
importantly, knowledge, gained far outweighed the time spent on the contest.

Hell, if I had any design skills, I;d be tempted to enter this one.

Get over it dude, no one is so good they cannot do Pro Bono work from time
to time, especially when its for a community supported project.

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I understand that...but THOSE contests are bad practices as well.

 If you WANT to work for free then by all means you should do so. If 
 you believe in supporting the Fusebox group and their excellent 
 codebase then you should ALSO do so. But putting out a contest, asking 
 people to work for
 free is a bad idea, and not something that   the community should support.

 Here's a list of articles discussing spec work and it's effects on the 
 design community. Bear in mind that this ALSO affects the programming 
 community. It basically devalues your work product. If you're willing 
 to work for free this time, then why should you be charging me $65 
 per hour the next time.

 http://www.no-spec.com/archives/i-wish-i-had-written-this/

 http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0104h.shtml

 http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/


 http://designforum.aiga.org/content.cfm?ContentAlias=_getfullarticlea
 id=115
 5318

 http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?CategoryID=105


--
Scott Stroz




~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269342
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm simply saying that this contest devalues the overall work product
 because it expects that people would be willing to work towards a prize that
 they might not win.

And thus far, the overwhelming majority has disagreed with you.

You don't need me or anybody else to tell you that you're entitled to
your opinion.  But you may need somebody to tell you that your opinion
may not reflect the collective opinion of the community.

-- 
Charlie Griefer


...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies,
and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch
you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269343
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

That's fine. I'm not going to quit the list because someone disagrees with
me. It's Sandra's choice to offer the contest and it's the community's
choice to enter. 

-Original Message-
From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm simply saying that this contest devalues the overall work product 
 because it expects that people would be willing to work towards a 
 prize that they might not win.

And thus far, the overwhelming majority has disagreed with you.

You don't need me or anybody else to tell you that you're entitled to your
opinion.  But you may need somebody to tell you that your opinion may not
reflect the collective opinion of the community.

--
Charlie Griefer

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269344
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

One last thing.

Since most of you disagree with me (and that's totally fine), at what point
do YOU think it's a bad idea? Just a few days ago, someone was asking for a
really elaborate piece of coding for a site and people thought that was
ridiculous that someone would ask that.

In what way is this different? Sandra isn't asking someone to come up with a
design that she will use. She's asking many people to come up with designs
that they might pick one (what if none of them are good enough?). The rest
of the people are basically out of luck. They don't get any recognition or
compensation for their time.


andy

-Original Message-
From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm simply saying that this contest devalues the overall work product 
 because it expects that people would be willing to work towards a 
 prize that they might not win.

And thus far, the overwhelming majority has disagreed with you.

You don't need me or anybody else to tell you that you're entitled to your
opinion.  But you may need somebody to tell you that your opinion may not
reflect the collective opinion of the community.

--
Charlie Griefer


...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and
whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you,
digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269345
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

 even if it saves then
hundreds of hours of development time. I think that is plain stupid.

I would even add that it does not help developers because it constitutes 
an unfair competition
and prevents others from offering a better commercial product.
In that sense, it can be seen as a betrayal from developers against 
other developers,
both ways.


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269346
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I'm simply saying that this contest devalues the overall work product
because it expects that people would be willing to work towards a prize that
they might not win.

Hmm, and yet when companies put out for bids on design work, the applicants
will have to offer up designs for free in an attempt to win the bid. And that's
true of more than just design. And, yes, I know *some* companies will pay
applicants to bid but most don't. So it's common business practice to ask
people to work for free in order to win a prize (a business deal).

I'm really surprised at how up in arms you are getting about a simple contest
for an open source project. Several framework projects have asked people to
design logos for free (Mach II recently adopted a new logo after a design
contest; CFEclipse went thru a similar process some time back; Reactor ran a
logo contest). Some of these projects have also held open contests for website
design. Did you complain publicly about those as well? If not, why not? Is
there something about the Fusebox project that upsets you more than those other
projects?

As for devaluing work - my experience has been the opposite. People I know
who've submitted work for free to community projects (in a number of
communities that I belong to) have all gone on to get *more* paying work
because of their free community work!

Sean

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269347
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One last thing.

Since most of you disagree with me (and that's totally fine), at what point
do YOU think it's a bad idea? Just a few days ago, someone was asking for a
really elaborate piece of coding for a site and people thought that was
ridiculous that someone would ask that.

In what way is this different? Sandra isn't asking someone to come up with a
design that she will use. She's asking many people to come up with designs
that they might pick one (what if none of them are good enough?). The rest
of the people are basically out of luck. They don't get any recognition or
compensation for their time.

Not only is she not asking many people...she's not asking -any-
people. She's not asking anybody to do anything that they don't want
to do.

I can virtually guarantee you that most (if not all) of the people who
enter this particular contest are not going to do it for the
potential prize. They're going to do it to show their support for
fusebox and the community. -If- they happen to win, great. It's an
incentive, sure.

Would you have been OK with this if there was no prize? If there had
simply been a request made for people (who want to support fusebox) to
submit design ideas? and then maybe the members of Team Fusebox would
vote on the best one? And it would end there?

Because that's really the way that I see this. Yes, there is a
prize. I just don't really think that's going to be anybody's
primary motivation for entering.

--
Charlie Griefer

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269348
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

 Since most of you disagree with me

I agree with you. In a contest, there is always something to win, but 
when the only winner is the one who set up the contest, it is not a 
contest, it's a rip-off ;-)

-- 
___
REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
(Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Thanks.


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269349
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

OK, so don't look at it as a contest.

Look at it as a several people doing Pro Bono work where there is a
potential of getting rewarded for their time.


 I have ZERO problem with Pro Bono work. Did you completely overlook my
 last
 post which said do it pro bono instead of entering a contest. I think
 that
 doing pro bono work for the Fusebox site is a wonderful idea and I
 heartily
 recommend that SOMEONE pick up their request and do the site design for
 free. If the Fusebox group then decides to reward your time with those
 tickets than that's awesome. But if you're doing the work as Pro Bono then
 you weren't expecting anything now were you?


-- 
Scott Stroz


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269350
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced


 I agree with you. In a contest, there is always something to win, but
 when the only winner is the one who set up the contest, it is not a
 contest, it's a rip-off ;-)


Couldn't that be said of EVERY contest?

I would agree with you ONLY if the one setting up the contest was a business
who stood to benefit, but we are talking about a group of people who
dedicate a lot of their own time for the benefit of the community.  And not
one of them gets ANY compensation to do so.  So, by offering up a prize,
they are actually giving someone not only a chance to help the community,
but to profit from it as well.


-- 
Scott Stroz


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269351
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Eric Haskins

On 2/9/07, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Since most of you disagree with me

 I agree with you. In a contest, there is always something to win, but
 when the only winner is the one who set up the contest, it is not a
 contest, it's a rip-off ;-)


Please tell me this was not meant to be stated this way??

I work on alot of Open Source projects in the PHP community and none that I
can recall ever did any contests. Yet I still plugged alone on parts I felt
I could contribute.  I am also involved now with Fusebox and when I checked
off I was interested in contributing did I expect to get paid???

Its friday I guess a few peeps should go home early

Eric


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269352
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Sean...

I have nothing against Fusebox at all. I think I've made that pretty clear.
I have respect for their product, even if I don't personally use it.

Your first paragraph though is the crux of the problem. Companies EXPECT
people to work for free to get a prize. That's wrong and it's
unreasonable. I would never do a design for free just to get a job. What if
someone wanted you to write an app for them just to be considered for a
position? Would you do it?

What if this was a coding contest to write the best function to do X. When I
design websites, (I started off as a designer, before moving into
programming by the way), I budget at least 20-30 hours. Would you be willing
to spend 30 hours writing a function that might never even get used because
someone elses was better?


andy

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:00 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I'm simply saying that this contest devalues the overall work product 
because it expects that people would be willing to work towards a prize 
that they might not win.

Hmm, and yet when companies put out for bids on design work, the applicants
will have to offer up designs for free in an attempt to win the bid. And
that's true of more than just design. And, yes, I know *some* companies will
pay applicants to bid but most don't. So it's common business practice to
ask people to work for free in order to win a prize (a business deal).

I'm really surprised at how up in arms you are getting about a simple
contest for an open source project. Several framework projects have asked
people to design logos for free (Mach II recently adopted a new logo after a
design contest; CFEclipse went thru a similar process some time back;
Reactor ran a logo contest). Some of these projects have also held open
contests for website design. Did you complain publicly about those as well?
If not, why not? Is there something about the Fusebox project that upsets
you more than those other projects?

As for devaluing work - my experience has been the opposite. People I know
who've submitted work for free to community projects (in a number of
communities that I belong to) have all gone on to get *more* paying work
because of their free community work!

Sean



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269353
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Since most of you disagree with me (and that's totally fine), at what point
do YOU think it's a bad idea?

I think it's a bad idea when the prize is commercial work (in other words,
companies asking for commercial design bids on spec is not great business for
anyone). If people are bidding on a commercial project, it is reasonable that
they get compensation for the bid itself.

If people are being asked to bid on something where there is no commercial
work, no compensation - other than perhaps some name recognition - then it's
fine. The winner won't get paid, no one will get paid.

Just a few days ago, someone was asking for a
really elaborate piece of coding for a site and people thought that was
ridiculous that someone would ask that.

Well, a lot of ridiculous requests come through here :)

If the really elaborate piece of coding was for a paid job then the
contributor should get paid. If it was for a free project, it's a reasonable
request. Hey, I'm doing this work for free, for a community project (or
whatever) - anyone fancy helping me out for free by contributing?

In what way is this different? ... They don't get any recognition or
compensation for their time.

The winner gets no compensation (how many times do I have to say that?).

I believe that every submission will get listed on a publicly visible page with
attribution (as has happened in all of the logo contests I mentioned in my
earlier post) and then a group of people will vote on those submissions and the
winning submission will be used to create the look'n'feel of the new site. With
attribution on the site itself.

Since the contest submissions will probably be posted on the Fusebox wiki, I
expect the page can stay up pretty much indefinitely offering recognition to
all entrants.

Sean

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269354
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I agree with you. In a contest, there is always something to win, but 
when the only winner is the one who set up the contest, it is not a 
contest, it's a rip-off ;-)

And if the winner is an entire community of developers...?

Sean

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269355
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sean...

I have nothing against Fusebox at all. I think I've made that pretty clear.
I have respect for their product, even if I don't personally use it.

Your first paragraph though is the crux of the problem. Companies EXPECT
people to work for free to get a prize. That's wrong and it's
unreasonable. I would never do a design for free just to get a job. What if
someone wanted you to write an app for them just to be considered for a
position? Would you do it?

What if this was a coding contest to write the best function to do X. When I
design websites, (I started off as a designer, before moving into
programming by the way), I budget at least 20-30 hours. Would you be willing
to spend 30 hours writing a function that might never even get used because
someone elses was better?

(just to be perfectly clear...i'm not sean, but...)

It depends. Risk vs. Reward. If the potential reward was the job of
a lifetime... my dream job (etc etc), I'd be willing to invest some
time into writing something.

I spent more than 20-30 hours on the Blackjack contest, and lord knows
nobody's going to use my entry. But it was fun, and I learned quite a
bit (the latter being the reason I entered in the first place).
That's actually a great example. I didn't enter that contest for the
prize. Didn't need the prize. I entered because I thought that, for
me, it would be a good learning experience (and it was).

The prize isn't always the motivation.

--
Charlie Griefer

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269357
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

The problem with this contest is that people are being asked to contribute a
significat amount of time with no guarentee of winning. This isn't like
spending a dollar to enter the lottery. I budget a minimum of 20-30 hours of
my time with ANY design project.

-Original Message-
From: Scott Stroz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:22 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

 I agree with you. In a contest, there is always something to win, but 
 when the only winner is the one who set up the contest, it is not a 
 contest, it's a rip-off ;-)

Couldn't that be said of EVERY contest?

I would agree with you ONLY if the one setting up the contest was a business
who stood to benefit, but we are talking about a group of people who
dedicate a lot of their own time for the benefit of the community.  And not
one of them gets ANY compensation to do so.  So, by offering up a prize,
they are actually giving someone not only a chance to help the community,
but to profit from it as well.

--
Scott Stroz

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269358
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The problem with this contest is that people are being asked to contribute a
significat amount of time with no guarentee of winning. This isn't like
spending a dollar to enter the lottery. I budget a minimum of 20-30 hours of
my time with ANY design project.

Think Sean or Hal or Jeff or any of those people spent more than 30
hours on Fusebox? Think Sandra's not going to be investing more than
30 hours in organizing the new site or the new documentation?

Everybody involved in this (and most) projects are going to invest a
significant amount of time. That's why I said previously that I
-suspect- that those who are entering aren't doing so with the
explicit intent of trying to win a prize. They're doing so as a way
to contribute. The prize is just a nice little bonus -if- it happens.

But nobody's twisting anybody's arm. This isn't some starving
designer who's about to lose his house and family because he's out of
work being taken advantage of by a design firm.

Perspective, man :)

--
Charlie Griefer

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269359
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I have nothing against Fusebox at all. I think I've made that pretty clear.
I have respect for their product, even if I don't personally use it.

Product?? Product???!?!? Is that how you see the community-created frameworks 
and tools or was that perhaps just a bad choice of words?

Your first paragraph though is the crux of the problem. Companies EXPECT
people to work for free to get a prize.

*Some* companies. And I've answered this in another response in the thread.

I would never do a design for free just to get a job.

That's fine. There are some jobs you would never get (and, by your principles, 
those would be for companies - or community projects - that you wouldn't want 
to work for).

What if
someone wanted you to write an app for them just to be considered for a
position? Would you do it?

No, I won't even write code on demand in an interview. I'd probably point 
them at some of my open source code. If I were a designer, I'd want to be able 
to point them at a public portfolio. If that portfolio is made broader by 
community contributions, that sounds like a good thing to me. But it's a value 
judgment each developer or designer must make for themselves.

What if this was a coding contest to write the best function to do X.

Like Ray's contests, you mean?

Would you be willing
to spend 30 hours writing a function that might never even get used because
someone elses was better?

I've contributed many hundreds of hours to open source projects over the 
years**. Some get used. Some don't. I don't complain to mailing lists about 
it... :)

** including OpenOffice.org, Mono, GNU's Standard Template Library for C++ and 
numerous others that have nothing to do with websites or ColdFusion. I don't 
know if my contributions are actually part of those projects or whether any 
attribution recognizes my work. That's fine. I contributed without any 
expectations.

Sean

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269360
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Mark Fuqua

Blah Blah Blah vs. blah blah blah = lots of blah blah blah

I would suggest maybe you shouldn't enter the contest.  Just a thought.

-Original Message-
From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:35 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

The problem with this contest is that people are being asked to contribute a
significat amount of time with no guarentee of winning. This isn't like
spending a dollar to enter the lottery. I budget a minimum of 20-30 hours of
my time with ANY design project.

-Original Message-
From: Scott Stroz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:22 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

 I agree with you. In a contest, there is always something to win, but
 when the only winner is the one who set up the contest, it is not a
 contest, it's a rip-off ;-)

Couldn't that be said of EVERY contest?

I would agree with you ONLY if the one setting up the contest was a business
who stood to benefit, but we are talking about a group of people who
dedicate a lot of their own time for the benefit of the community.  And not
one of them gets ANY compensation to do so.  So, by offering up a prize,
they are actually giving someone not only a chance to help the community,
but to profit from it as well.

--
Scott Stroz

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269361
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Sandra Clark

Luckily, I'm not in charge of documentation, that is Nat, Patrick and Steve.

I'm only in charge of the Web site (with Brian Kotek), proofreading and
editing (with Brian Kotek) and fusedocs.

And yes, I'll be spending a great deal of time far in excess of 30 hours
doing this.  But that is my choice and I do it freely.

No one is requiring anyone to enter.  But we figured that there are people
who want to contribute and think they don't have any applicable skills (and
everyone does have something they can contribute if they want to) and so
came up with the contest idea.  

I hope though that people do contribute in whatever ways they feel
comfortable.  Fusebox has been good for my career, and I want to give
something back to the community, that's why I do it.   

As Sean said, all designs will be up on the wiki (thumbnailed and clickable
to larger images), if someone likes a design there that isn't ultimately
chosen for the website, they will be able to contact the designer.




Sandra Clark
==
http://www.shayna.com
Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility


-Original Message-
From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:44 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The problem with this contest is that people are being asked to 
 contribute a significat amount of time with no guarentee of winning. 
 This isn't like spending a dollar to enter the lottery. I budget a 
 minimum of 20-30 hours of my time with ANY design project.

Think Sean or Hal or Jeff or any of those people spent more than 30 hours on
Fusebox?  Think Sandra's not going to be investing more than 30 hours in
organizing the new site or the new documentation?

Everybody involved in this (and most) projects are going to invest a
significant amount of time.  That's why I said previously that I
-suspect- that those who are entering aren't doing so with the explicit
intent of trying to win a prize.  They're doing so as a way to contribute.
The prize is just a nice little bonus -if- it happens.

But nobody's twisting anybody's arm.  This isn't some starving designer
who's about to lose his house and family because he's out of work being
taken advantage of by a design firm.

Perspective, man :)


--
Charlie Griefer


...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and
whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you,
digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning.
Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269362
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Here's another thought. I doubt the Fusebox folks would be paying anyone
for a site design, so you, and other designers, are not missing out on
anything.

On 2/9/07, Andy Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The problem with this contest is that people are being asked to contribute
a
significat amount of time with no guarentee of winning. This isn't like
spending a dollar to enter the lottery. I budget a minimum of 20-30 hours
of
my time with ANY design project.

-Original Message-
From: Scott Stroz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:22 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I agree with you. In a contest, there is always something to win, but
when the only winner is the one who set up the contest, it is not a
contest, it's a rip-off ;-)

Couldn't that be said of EVERY contest?

I would agree with you ONLY if the one setting up the contest was a
business
who stood to benefit, but we are talking about a group of people who
dedicate a lot of their own time for the benefit of the community. And
not
one of them gets ANY compensation to do so. So, by offering up a prize,
they are actually giving someone not only a chance to help the community,
but to profit from it as well.

--
Scott Stroz

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269363
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Eric Haskins

I just hope others that were thinking about contests don't pick this thread
up on google searches.  I really feel contests like these help all who
participate

Eric


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269364
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Andy and Claude,

I strongly urge you both to pursue other careers. More than likely, given
your vast understanding of business principles, your are most likely to
succeed in life if you move into government, and more specifically, business
legislature. After all, in a position like that, you'll be able to write
laws that put an end to the absurdities that go on in business (and the
various industry communities). And, more importantly, you'll be raping me
and your other constituents of our hard-earned tax dollars, because we'll be
paying you to grind the enterprise world to a halt.

If you had *any* sense at all, which you obviously do not, you would
understand how utterly absurd your issue is. It's beyond pathetic.

Devalued? WTF? I dare say that the fact that those who work for free (to
use your words) are *able* to charge far in excess of what would normally be
charged. For instance, while I might be hired for $75/hr, I highly doubt
that you'll be able to hire a Sean, or a Ray, or a Hal for $75/hr. Hell,
after airing your ridiculous belief here, I doubt you could hire *anyone*
for less than a couple grand per hour. I damn sure wouldn't lift a finger
to help you for less than that... I wouldn't want you to think I was cheap.

Matt

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269367
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Hell, if I had any design talent (which I unfortunately do not, and have
given up trying to acquire it), I'd enter the contest just to make sure my
name was published.  That way I could be guaranteed that you would never
call me for work.


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269369
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Anyone with *any* business sense at all knows that contests are an
*extremely* good marketing/growth tool.  Only the completely id10Tic people
in this world can even consider the notion that contests are bad.


On 2/9/07, Eric Haskins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I just hope others that were thinking about contests don't pick this
 thread
 up on google searches.  I really feel contests like these help all who
 participate

 Eric



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269370
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Oğuz Demirkapı

Hey Sandra,

I am not a designer but I will also try my best in my free time. :)

 Thanks for your efforts, appreciate it!

OÄuz DemirkapÄ±

TeraTech Inc. | Senior Developer
405 East Gude Dr Suite 207, Rockville, MD 20850, USA
Voice: +1 (301) 424-3903 ext 111 | Fax: +1 (301) 762-8185
Web: http://www.teratech.com | E-mail: oguz.demirkapi AT teratech.com
Winner in CFDJ awards Best Consulting. Member Team Fusebox.





~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269371
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread So Kenfused

1. It is different because this is for an open source community project.

2. Who cares if it is different? If someone is willing to donate their
time to build an Ebay type application for free or provide a design for
a site then power to them. It is their time and their life.

3. It is my opinion that you came across as trying to set the bar for
what should and should not be supported on this list.

To me should be an individual decision. The support this community
provides is one of the things that sets ColdFusion apart to me. I've
never been involved in a community of people so willing to help each
other and on an ongoing long term basis. I have been part of this
community for about 6 years and have seen the many of the same people
here the entire time. It amazes me that people like Ray Camden, Sean
Corfield, Ben Forta, David Watts, and a host of others spend time here
helping programmers of all skill level. I still remember the first time
Ben answered a question I posted. I was like dude, Forta answered my
question! The guy that wrote the book! Although I was impressed by some
of the big names, I've always been just as appreciative no matter who
provided the help. I've had questions answered that I would have had to
pay someone for if not for the support here. So should we all stop
helping each other because we could charge each other as consultants? I
wonder how much business the folks at FigLeaf have gotten because of
their pro bono support of this list? I know I've hired them. Had it not
been for their help here they wouldn't have gotten that contract.

PS. Dave you still need to bill me.

Andy Matthews wrote:
One last thing.

andy

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269372
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Jared Rypka-Hauer

I've read this thread over, start to finish...

Andy, I don't know how to tell you this, but you're a massive hypocrite.
Entering contests that you declare to be a bad idea and then rationalizing it?
Where are you standards, man? Where are your ethics?

I choose to believe that you're well-meaning here... but you're holding Ray a
different standard than everyone else in one post, in another you're lumping
him into the rest of it, and in yet another you're admitting that you've
participated in his contests!!! Make up your mind!

Also, nobody from Team Fusebox makes any money off Fusebox, so if you do
something for the framework, don't expect to make anything off any of it... if
you HAPPEN to score a ticket, be a happy camper, say thanks, and join the rest
of us in working for somethingn big to support the community. For. Free.

The contest is an INCENTIVE, not profit. You MIGHT get something, so do
something or not, but help? And if you need a ticket to a conference and can't
afford one/don't have an employer to pay for one, then try it... see if it
works out for you.

Anway, while I choose to believe you're well-meaning here, you're also
blatantly fully of crap and slinging garbage around the community. This is a
subject fully covered by free will, free markets and free minds... if you don't
like it, don't do it. Granted, you're fully entitled by the laws of your
country to whine as you have. Your freedom to espouse bulls***t is the same
freedom enjoyed by those of us that are involved with Fusebox and able to put
on a contest. A community contest. One that allows people to be creative and
helpful at the same time. And, possibly, get some free tickets out of it.

Can you afford to pay for these 3 tickets on your own? Do you think you might
benefit from attending? Well, if the answer is no and yes, you might enter. You
MIGHT win. You might NOT. That's the risk and the reward of *contest* and,
frankly, your repeated assertion that you have to do work with no guarantee of
winning is something you accept when you participate in a CONTEST.

You might run a race. You might win. You might not.

Better to stay sitting down.

Your whole rationale is circular, capricious, selective and, really...

Stupid. Sorry. It's the only word I can come up with.

The thing you lack is community spirit. The thing you have is overriding
self-interest. You have them backwards... get with the groove, relax, have some
fun.

Or dont. Up to you.

Give the rest of us, though, a break.

Thanks.

With respect to the organizers of this contest, to Fusebox, and to you
Sandra...this is a poor idea.

Archive:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269373
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

 Couldn't that be said of EVERY contest?

No, generally, in a contest, there is something to win.
It is a rip-off when the winner wins nothing.

 but we are talking about a group of people who
dedicate a lot of their own time for the benefit of the community.

This is what they say. IMHO they don't give a dam the community, they 
just do it for glory,
for the sensation of belonging to some group of nerds, or whatever.

-- 
___
REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
(Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Thanks.


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269374
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

 Anyone with *any* business sense at all knows that contests are an
*extremely* good marketing/growth tool.

I don't remember anyone ever said here that constests are bad.
The only issue is about contests where the only one who wins is the 
one who set it up.

-- 
___
REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
(Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Thanks.


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269375
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

This is what they say. IMHO they don't give a dam the community, they 
just do it for glory,
for the sensation of belonging to some group of nerds, or whatever.

Ah, Claude, you've figured out the cunning conspiracy... we don't give a dam 
(sic) about you, it's true :)

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269376
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

I think what you meant to say was:

The only issue is that my panties are in a wad because I suck at what I do
and so I'm going to bitch and moan that these 'contests' aren't rigged to
benefit me.


On 2/9/07, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The only issue is about contests where the only one who wins is the
 one who set it up.



~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269377
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Wow...Claude, you are an ass.

On 2/9/07, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Couldn't that be said of EVERY contest?

 No, generally, in a contest, there is something to win.
 It is a rip-off when the winner wins nothing.

 but we are talking about a group of people who
 dedicate a lot of their own time for the benefit of the community.

 This is what they say. IMHO they don't give a dam the community, they
 just do it for glory,
 for the sensation of belonging to some group of nerds, or whatever.

 --
 ___
 REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
 See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
 (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
 Thanks.


 

~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269384
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

RE: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

2007-02-09 Thread Dave Watts

 Subject: Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced

Maybe this topic, being completely non-technical, could go to cf-community?

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


~|
Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 
Experience Flex 2  MX7 integration  create powerful cross-platform RIAs 
http:http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU

Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:269385
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4

Re: Fusebox Web Site Design Contest Announced