subject:"\[Elecraft\] A way to show both SPLIT and NON\-SPLIT warnings"

Well stated, Gary. But those who don't have a P3 could still benefit from a 
more overt split/non-split indication on the K3 itself. I'm going to try the 
method I proposed.

Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 8:39 AM, Gary Smith g...@ka1j.com wrote:

 It is the operator of the radio who must be in control of his 
 transmitter. When I go to a split operation I always set the K3 to do 
 that and I'm good to go. 
 
 However what happens is I rarely make the Q right away and I I'll 
 click on another spot I need to see how that is coming in and with my 
 software, if there is a split frequency entered, the K3 will be put 
 in split as well (All is good). But, when going back to the first 
 frequency, unless I manually work the band switch to QSY to where I 
 first set up the split, clicking on a spot in the spot log will get 
 me there but if SPLIT wasn't in that info, I'll be back but not in 
 SPLIT. When I transmit I'll be dead on the DX.
 
 If I had clicked on a spot on the same band, I may or may not have 
 had a SPLIT entered based on the info the spotter had left. So if 
 there was no SPLIT, then QSYing back to the first frequency, I'd 
 again have no SPLIT.
 
 The problem being that I had set up a split the first time but later 
 left the frequency and going back to it, I have to check to see if 
 I'm still in split. Yes, the responsibility is mine to do so but it's 
 easy to be curious about other possible Qs and then having your 
 original settings be undone without you thinking about it.
 
 I suspect some version of that scenario happens to most people. For 
 me, seeing the words in color on the P3 would be an in your face 
 reminder you are in split or not. I'd love to be able to select that 
 option, others may not want to but it would save my can, you betcha.
 
 73,
 
 Gary  KA1J
 
 Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
 indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
 indicate is not the case.
 
 Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
 or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
 accident.  That's not possible - there are those who can break an
 anvil.
 
 The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
 Any *one* of those should be sufficient.  *NONE* of the proposals do
 anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
 operator that he *should be in split*.
 
 The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*.  The
 correct approach would be:  every time the operator activates transmit,
 the rig display should show a message that says you are in transceive
 (simplex) - are you sure you should not engage split?  Press XMIT to
 begin transmitting
 
 73,
 
... Joe, W4TV
 
 
 On 2015-02-18 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote:
 Dave (AB9CA),
 
 Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
 lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
 just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.
 
 Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
 indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
 indicate is not the case.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO

I like this idea, at least for those with a P3. It is usually where my 
eyes are. If the P3 (and of course SVGA display) were to make the 
transmitting cursor background yellow when the K3 is in TX mode, that 
would immediately get my attention. Nothing could be clearer when 
looking at a pileup.


I am not so positive about SPLIT/NON.SPLT in the VFO displays.

On 18 Feb 2015 17:31, David Cole wrote:

Wayne,
If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of
something on the P3 to indicate split.  Most of my eye action is on the
P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.



--
73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Gary Smith

 Will that include the telepathy module so that the K3 knows when it 
 should be in split?  Unless I've missed something it still needs the 
 operator to know when split is desired and initiate it.


My YL expects me to have the telepathy module running 24/7...

Gary KA1J

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Anthony Simons

Now, how can we help the guy that is in split but on the wrong VFO?

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Gary Smith g...@ka1j.com wrote:

  Will that include the telepathy module so that the K3 knows when it
  should be in split?  Unless I've missed something it still needs the
  operator to know when split is desired and initiate it.


 My YL expects me to have the telepathy module running 24/7...

 Gary KA1J

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread george fritkin via Elecraft

I make it easy. I use two radios.
George, W6GF 

 On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 8:55 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com 
wrote:
   

 User interface design is often called upon to make up for human failings. We 
get distracted, we forget, we have trouble breaking bad habits, we easily 
acquire new ones. This is true no matter how much training we have. The 
designer tries to take such issues into account up front, but sometimes we find 
out later and make adjustments.

My cognitive science professor, Don Norman, put a heavy emphasis on embedding 
knowledge in the world. Signs and indicators need to be as unambiguous as 
possible to help those of us who can't or won't pay attention. Ideally the 
indications are intuitive, so users adapt to them easily and don't feel 
oppressed by them. That distinction is in play here. And while I'd love to add 
a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon horn, and a Van de Graf generator to the K3's user 
interface, we have to work within the limits of the existing hardware.

Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is in the 
tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real errors that people 
make, then minimizing them. That's why we're having this conversation.

Wayne
N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Stephen Selberg

My .02
I think it's a good idea if Elecraft is willing to invest the time. I know
plenty of good operators who take the time to set split only to
accidentally bump a button that throws everything out of wack during the
rush of a new one. Then they continue to call thinking they're in split
because they took the time to set it and ignore all the ..- .--. 'S because
in their mind, they are in split. I think having it displayed on the P3 is
an excellent idea because that is were the attention is for a lot of folks.

Also there are hams with young children who like to run into the shack and
press buttons without the operators knowledge during a bathroom break etc.
this has never happened to me Hihi.

Ultimately, yes ppl should pay attention, but if the ability is there to
help them, why not have it.

Wayne, if you build it, they will come.

73,

Steve KS6PD

On Wednesday, February 18, 2015, Dwayne Rohmer djcaroh...@ntin.net wrote:

 Situation awareness is the perception of environmental elements with
 respect to time or space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the
 projection of their status after some variable has changed, such as time,
 or some other variable, such as a predetermined event. I guess we need more
 situational awareness. How we get there is up for debate. And we digress.

 When in SPLIT, the K3 already displays the Delta f LED, The SPLIT icon,
 and the TX arrow points to the B VFO. Configuring the DELTA-F LED to
 FLASH may, or may not, create more awareness, it just depends on the
 operator.

 I suggested CONFIG: DELTA-F LED (nor or FLASH) as a solution to those that
 need another flag to indicate SPLIT. If you don't want it, you wouldn't
 have to configure it.

 It should not be necessary to display a message that constitutes a warning
 in a normal operating mode. Having three indicators when split should be
 enough, but we know that the size of the K3 also dictates a small display.
 That display has a lot of information on it, sometimes you have to look
 closely to see what is really going on. Maybe the P3 or a computer screen
 has become a more popular thing to look at, especially with DX and
 contesting.

 Since the objective is to easily determine or verify the transmit
 frequency with SPLIT, RIT, and XIT ops, maybe a CONFIG option could enable
 the Transmit frequency (in this case, VFO B) to flash three times on key
 down, but only when operating SPLIT, RIT, and XIT.

 I propose CONFIG: Tx FREQ (nor or FLASH).

 The K3 will never fix an operator that doesn't know what split is, or when
 to use it. We also can't fix an operator that doesn't know how to use his
 radio. It may be helpful to have a larger indicator to help an experienced
 operator that is familiar with his radio to easily determine the frequency
 of the transmitter, and also to quickly recover from an unintended push of
 a button or other mistake.

 73,

 Dwayne WV5I



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread jim

Wayne,

You are boiling the ocean for a small issue. 

I think a better CW decoder would help on CW, some op's can't copy up or Eu,
or JA, or

Jim
W6AIM

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 9:36 AM
To: Elecraft List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:

 If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor
at the door that would staple my pants to my waist. 

Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's
pants emit a discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if
you've forgotten to put on a belt or suspenders. The other company's pants
do not have this feature, resulting in giggles from passersby as your pants
slip to the ground as you exit the building. Oh, and there's a TV van
filming you from across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting UP! UP!

Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would
you buy?

Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect
the presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a
real product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger.
Which would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too?
The saw with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But
OTOH, until this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as
their immediate family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.

My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a
simple change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth
the trouble.

I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And
at no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text
display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this
feature--because they are well above average in awareness of state--can
choose not to turn it on.

(Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)

Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Guy Olinger K2AV

With all due respect, however..

There are two times during a contest when I can get tripped up with
SPLT or LINK or anything else that is not a firm habit or totally
rote:

STUPID -- my usual state after 24 hours with only scattered sleep,
worsened by pileups not there to keep me energized and rates gone down
and having to slog it out. Nothing fixes STUPID except 8 uninterrupted
hours of sleep and cranial transplants. No flashy, whizzy change on
the panel display will fix STUPID.

LAZY -- That's when I get on because there's nothing else to do, I'm
sleepy but can't go to sleep. More to the point, my basic attitude is
irritated, irritated at whatever. Anything that bothers me is someone
else's fault. My wife leaves me alone when I'm like that. I try not to
write emails when I'm like that. I screw up SPLT because I'm not
paying attention, because I don't want to pay attention. No flashy,
whizzy change on the panel display will fix LAZY.

DISTRACTED -- That's when there's more than one thing going on. That
would be radio plus whatever. The whatever's are around all the time,
need to scratch my b*tt, a bird flies past the window, a dog barks,
multi/multi contest and the rates are down and the other ops are
sending limericks around on the MM network. DISTRACTED is something we
all need to manage, and don't want to, see LAZY. No flashy, whizzy
change on the panel display will fix DISTRACTED.

PAYING ATTENTION is the owner's responsibility. No one else's.

SOME things would fix what seem, by the greater experience in Elecraft
owner land, to be natural born trip hazards. Like guard rails to
minimize the damage when a driver runs off the road, but the driver is
still responsible.

Could be an option to flash the delta f LED, but that is as far as I'd
go. But even then after a time people will even tune out the flashing
delta f LED. I normally do NOT perceive the flashing TX LED while I'm
operating. Flashing TX LED is normal, and my mind has tuned out
normal, looking listening for what's different, like the sound and
smell of the Sabre-Tooth Tiger, back in my cave man days.

The effect of flashy, whizzy change on the panel display will last
until the subconscious human brain figures out that flashy, whizzy
change on the panel display is NORMAL, and then the subconscious will
tune it out, so it can listen for the Sabre-Tooth Tiger.

73, Guy

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ted Roycraft roycr...@comcast.net wrote:
 Bingo!  No amount of flashing on the K3 screen is going to correct poor
 operating habits.  Nothing can substitute for good operating practices which
 become habits.   It takes 2 seconds to check the K3 status before sending.
 Make a habit.  If you don't do that, you won't see anything flashing on the
 screen either.
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[Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Larry Boekeloo

Just make the choices an option in the config setting.  Then, like everything 
else on my beloved K3, it'll work the way i want it to work.


Larry, KN8N
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Mike Harris

Will that include the telepathy module so that the K3 knows when it
should be in split? Unless I've missed something it still needs the
operator to know when split is desired and initiate it.

It's all getting out of perspective. The only programming needed is
that of the operator, aka learning how to use the K3, not a big deal
surely, were are big brained animals.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 18/02/2015 12:30, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Any change we make in the way split is indicated would have to be enabled using
a menu entry. The present behavior will remain the default.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Carey Magee arsk2...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi All:

Would this be able to be set as an option in the Menu/Config Menu? I currently
am fine with split indication. If I include my logging program I currently have
4 indicators to remind me.

Thanks

73,
Carey Magee, K2RNY
Rochester New York
Grid: FN13ef
arsk2...@gmail.com

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote:
Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this behavior:

- If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A is TX in
this case.)

- If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX in this
case.)

So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you need
to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.

The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the change in metering from RX
to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come on when you key, and stay on
for at least 300 ms, the timer being retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what that
would look like, just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you key the radio.

It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX station on
the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to get your attention.

It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire
contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A knob,
where the action is.

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Edward R Cole


Thank you!

I need to be able to know both frequencies at a glance and not have 
to wait a minute for the transmit cycle to end in JT65.  Keeping the 
present display as default works for me (and hopefully whatever 
option you provide in the menu makes others happy).


73, Ed - KL7UW

From: Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com
To: Carey Magee arsk2...@gmail.com
Cc: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT
warnings
Message-ID: f840c3fe-791e-4579-bda8-681807a40...@elecraft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Any change we make in the way split is indicated would have to be 
enabled using a menu entry. The present behavior will remain the default.


73,
Wayne
N6KR


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Kits made by KL7UW
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Mike Reublin NF4L

If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor at 
the door that would staple my pants to my waist. I'm just not a fan of trying 
to make up for someones lack of attention to the job at hand. A car ad I saw on 
TV recently concluded with the statement that by virtue of all the safety 
devices on board, it wasn't necessary to devote as much attention to driving. I 
find that kind of thinking truly frightening.

Have I transmitted on the wrong VFO? Of course, and I take full blame for that. 
It's not the radio's fault.

It is of course your company, and your decision. I'm not going to stop 
vigorously supporting Elecraft.

 On Feb 18, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote:
 
 
 On Feb 18, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Mike Reublin NF4L n...@comcast.net wrote:
 
 If it's an option, OK, but I am convinced that if an op misses the existing 
 two indicators on the LCD display, and the Δf yellow LED, then more 
 indicators aren't gonna help. And I am unanimous in my opinion.
 
 :)
 
 Well, I'm not sure I agree. Yes, there are three indicators, but they're all 
 quite small, and the delta-F LED is off to the side. These methods of 
 indicating split all seemed like a great idea at the time, but even I miss 
 them sometimes, so I'm interested in trying something else. 
 
 My proposed split and non-split text indications might solve the didn't 
 see the indicators problem, because they occupy so much more area of the 
 front panel (about 20 times more). That seems to be the crux of the issue: a 
 lot of operators want something *BIG* to change stage when they transmit, and 
 that something has to indicate whether they're in split or not. 
 
 This method also works whether you're doing real split (RX on VFO A, TX on 
 VFO B) or sub-RX implied split (TX on VFO A, RX with sub on VFO B).
 
 Wayne
 N6KR
 

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO

This is almost exactly what I would want except I'm r/g colorblind and 
want the cursor yellow.


It might help to have the TX cursor become red only while transmitting. 
Then the sudden color change would act as a 'flash' and get your attention.


On 18 Feb 2015 17:58, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



please consider the addition of something on the P3 to indicate
split.


It's *ALREADY THERE* - the Transmit (VFO B) cursor is *RED* when
split.  In addition, there is a separate (*THIRD*) red cursor
showing the transmit frequency when XIT is engaged.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-02-18 10:31 AM, David Cole wrote:

Wayne,
If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of
something on the P3 to indicate split.  Most of my eye action is on the
P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.


--
73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Ted Roycraft

This sounds like a harmless change and might even do some good.  I wish 
there were a good way to measure its effect, however, because I'm 
betting it won't make a bit of difference in errors in using split.  You 
have to look at the K3 display for it to be effective and I believe that 
is the root cause of the problem.  People don't pay attention.  At least 
with this change, Elecraft will have done just about all it can 
reasonably do and we'll see if we ever have this discussion again in the 
future.


73, Ted, W2ZK

On 2/18/2015 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:


If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor at 
the door that would staple my pants to my waist.

Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's pants emit a 
discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if you've forgotten to put on a 
belt or suspenders. The other company's pants do not have this feature, resulting in 
giggles from passersby as your pants slip to the ground as you exit the building. Oh, and 
there's a TV van filming you from across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting UP! 
UP!

Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would you 
buy?

Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect the 
presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a real 
product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger. Which 
would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too? The saw 
with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But OTOH, until 
this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as their immediate 
family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.

My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a simple 
change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth the trouble.

I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And at 
no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text 
display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this feature--because 
they are well above average in awareness of state--can choose not to turn it on.

(Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)

Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Dwayne Rohmer

Situation awareness is the perception of environmental elements with 
respect to time or space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the 
projection of their status after some variable has changed, such as 
time, or some other variable, such as a predetermined event. I guess we 
need more situational awareness. How we get there is up for debate. And 
we digress.


When in SPLIT, the K3 already displays the Delta f LED, The SPLIT icon, 
and the TX arrow points to the B VFO. Configuring the DELTA-F LED to 
FLASH may, or may not, create more awareness, it just depends on the 
operator.


I suggested CONFIG: DELTA-F LED (nor or FLASH) as a solution to those 
that need another flag to indicate SPLIT. If you don't want it, you 
wouldn't have to configure it.


It should not be necessary to display a message that constitutes a 
warning in a normal operating mode. Having three indicators when split 
should be enough, but we know that the size of the K3 also dictates a 
small display. That display has a lot of information on it, sometimes 
you have to look closely to see what is really going on. Maybe the P3 or 
a computer screen has become a more popular thing to look at, especially 
with DX and contesting.


Since the objective is to easily determine or verify the transmit 
frequency with SPLIT, RIT, and XIT ops, maybe a CONFIG option could 
enable the Transmit frequency (in this case, VFO B) to flash three times 
on key down, but only when operating SPLIT, RIT, and XIT.


I propose CONFIG: Tx FREQ (nor or FLASH).

The K3 will never fix an operator that doesn't know what split is, or 
when to use it. We also can't fix an operator that doesn't know how to 
use his radio. It may be helpful to have a larger indicator to help an 
experienced operator that is familiar with his radio to easily determine 
the frequency of the transmitter, and also to quickly recover from an 
unintended push of a button or other mistake.


73,

Dwayne WV5I



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

I believe the technical term for this is a splicket.

The mind boggles

Wayne


On Feb 18, 2015, at 8:36 AM, Guy n7un@gmail.com wrote:

 Wayne,
 
 While you are adding this warning feature, can you also add a cricket
 sound that randomly chirps?  User configurable, of course.  Partly for the
 amazement factor, partly to keep me company late at night while chasing
 DX.  And it should only operate while I'm in split mode.
 
 Maybe you could port some old code
 
 -- 
 Guy/N7UN
 http://www.n7un.com
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Bob

Personally, I think anything that might even slightly improve the chance
that an operator might detect the wrong mode is a good thing.

From the original description, this sounds like a minor code change, so it
isn't like it is taking a lot of firmware development time.

73, Bob, WB4SON


On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV k2av@gmail.com
wrote:

 With all due respect, however..

 There are two times during a contest when I can get tripped up with
 SPLT or LINK or anything else that is not a firm habit or totally
 rote:

 STUPID -- my usual state after 24 hours with only scattered sleep,
 worsened by pileups not there to keep me energized and rates gone down
 and having to slog it out. Nothing fixes STUPID except 8 uninterrupted
 hours of sleep and cranial transplants. No flashy, whizzy change on
 the panel display will fix STUPID.

 LAZY -- That's when I get on because there's nothing else to do, I'm
 sleepy but can't go to sleep. More to the point, my basic attitude is
 irritated, irritated at whatever. Anything that bothers me is someone
 else's fault. My wife leaves me alone when I'm like that. I try not to
 write emails when I'm like that. I screw up SPLT because I'm not
 paying attention, because I don't want to pay attention. No flashy,
 whizzy change on the panel display will fix LAZY.

 DISTRACTED -- That's when there's more than one thing going on. That
 would be radio plus whatever. The whatever's are around all the time,
 need to scratch my b*tt, a bird flies past the window, a dog barks,
 multi/multi contest and the rates are down and the other ops are
 sending limericks around on the MM network. DISTRACTED is something we
 all need to manage, and don't want to, see LAZY. No flashy, whizzy
 change on the panel display will fix DISTRACTED.

 PAYING ATTENTION is the owner's responsibility. No one else's.

 SOME things would fix what seem, by the greater experience in Elecraft
 owner land, to be natural born trip hazards. Like guard rails to
 minimize the damage when a driver runs off the road, but the driver is
 still responsible.

 Could be an option to flash the delta f LED, but that is as far as I'd
 go. But even then after a time people will even tune out the flashing
 delta f LED. I normally do NOT perceive the flashing TX LED while I'm
 operating. Flashing TX LED is normal, and my mind has tuned out
 normal, looking listening for what's different, like the sound and
 smell of the Sabre-Tooth Tiger, back in my cave man days.

 The effect of flashy, whizzy change on the panel display will last
 until the subconscious human brain figures out that flashy, whizzy
 change on the panel display is NORMAL, and then the subconscious will
 tune it out, so it can listen for the Sabre-Tooth Tiger.

 73, Guy

 On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ted Roycraft roycr...@comcast.net
 wrote:
  Bingo!  No amount of flashing on the K3 screen is going to correct poor
  operating habits.  Nothing can substitute for good operating practices
 which
  become habits.   It takes 2 seconds to check the K3 status before
 sending.
  Make a habit.  If you don't do that, you won't see anything flashing on
 the
  screen either.
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread N2TK, Tony

I can't tell you why, but I do know that I have had an issue with SPLIT more
so with the K3 then my former rigs. Deservedly so I have had the frequency
police alert me when I forgot to go split when I thought I was SPLIT. For
some reason I don't equate the yellow LED on the left side of the panel with
SPLIT. Maybe it is a mindset or an ergonomic thing?

I realize we only have one choice of color with the display, which
eliminates any possibility of using color to alert us there.
I like some of the ideas such as large visual indicators SPLIT where the
RCVR B frequency is displayed. Maybe that is worth a try with a beta version
to see if it helps the issue?

Maybe some kind of LED indicator by the SPLIT button? Wasn't there some
homebrew mods like this on the K2 years ago for other functions?
Maybe yellow is the wrong color where SPLIT presently is indicated? Too
close in color to the display screen? Make it green?
Maybe the symbol delta f next the yellow LED should really say SPLIT? 

Some rigs do not display the VFO B frequency when not in SPLIT.
Some show VFO B frequency subdued when not in SPLIT.
I like to know where the second receiver is tuned to even if not in SPLIT.

Just some thoughts. 
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 11:04 AM
To: Joe Subich, W4TV
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Joe,

Just because there are three indicators for SPLIT already doesn't mean that
the problem has been solved. Even crack operators have admitted during the
past few days that they occasionally forget their split state, with
embarrassing consequences. This is proof that the indications can and should
be improved, if possible. See my previous posting.

Wayne
N6KR


On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:58 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com wrote:

 
 please consider the addition of something on the P3 to indicate 
 split.
 
 It's *ALREADY THERE* - the Transmit (VFO B) cursor is *RED* when 
 split.  In addition, there is a separate (*THIRD*) red cursor showing 
 the transmit frequency when XIT is engaged.
 
 73,
 
  ... Joe, W4TV
 
 
 On 2015-02-18 10:31 AM, David Cole wrote:
 Wayne,
 If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of 
 something on the P3 to indicate split.  Most of my eye action is on 
 the
 P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread jim

I find myself in far more car accidents when driving and I take my hands off
the steering wheel to start doing Excel spreadsheets.

One needs to be situationally aware.

Jim
W6AIM




-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 7:17 AM
To: Wayne Burdick; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings


I dunno . . .

What we are doing is attempting to address an op who is not paying
attention. But, if the op is not paying attention, how is any of this going
to have any effect? I think it is all a waste of time and effort.

If someone is not paying attention, they are not paying attention, and the
*only* cure is for them to being paying attention to what they are doing.

I don't think the various band aids being discussed will help. The guy is
still not going to be paying attention. He is distracted by something else.

I would suggest that the time spent, which might well be wasted on this
project, be used for something more productive. The K3 is fine as it is. It
is the op that is the problem, not the K3.

73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 2/18/15 9:02 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this
behavior:

 - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A 
 is TX in this case.)

 - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX 
 in this case.)

 So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you
need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.

 The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the
change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come
on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being
retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like,
just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you key the radio.

 It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX
station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to
get your attention.

 It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire
contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A
knob, where the action is.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:

 If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor at 
 the door that would staple my pants to my waist. 

Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's pants 
emit a discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if you've 
forgotten to put on a belt or suspenders. The other company's pants do not have 
this feature, resulting in giggles from passersby as your pants slip to the 
ground as you exit the building. Oh, and there's a TV van filming you from 
across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting UP! UP!

Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would you 
buy?

Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect the 
presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a real 
product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger. Which 
would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too? The saw 
with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But OTOH, until 
this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as their immediate 
family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.

My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a simple 
change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth the trouble.

I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And at 
no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text 
display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this feature--because 
they are well above average in awareness of state--can choose not to turn it on.

(Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)

Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Ted,

I think the chance of success with this change is pretty high, precisely 
because you *won't* have to be looking at the radio. A complete rewrite of the 
VFO A or B display on key-down is going to be very noticeable even with 
peripheral vision.

Wayne
N6KR


On Feb 18, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Ted Roycraft roycr...@comcast.net wrote:

 This sounds like a harmless change and might even do some good.  I wish there 
 were a good way to measure its effect, however, because I'm betting it won't 
 make a bit of difference in errors in using split.  You have to look at the 
 K3 display for it to be effective and I believe that is the root cause of the 
 problem.  People don't pay attention.  At least with this change, Elecraft 
 will have done just about all it can reasonably do and we'll see if we ever 
 have this discussion again in the future.
 
 73, Ted, W2ZK
 
 On 2/18/2015 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:
 
 If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor 
 at the door that would staple my pants to my waist.
 Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's 
 pants emit a discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if 
 you've forgotten to put on a belt or suspenders. The other company's pants 
 do not have this feature, resulting in giggles from passersby as your pants 
 slip to the ground as you exit the building. Oh, and there's a TV van 
 filming you from across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting UP! UP!
 
 Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would 
 you buy?
 
 Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect 
 the presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a 
 real product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger. 
 Which would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too? 
 The saw with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But 
 OTOH, until this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as 
 their immediate family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.
 
 My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a 
 simple change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth 
 the trouble.
 
 I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And 
 at no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text 
 display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this 
 feature--because they are well above average in awareness of state--can 
 choose not to turn it on.
 
 (Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)
 
 Wayne
 N6KR
 
 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 10:55 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV spewed:

Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
accident.  That's not possible - there are those who can break an anvil.
===

Untrue Joe...  No where do I imply that it should be impossible for an
accident to happen.  In fact I infer just the opposite, that there
should be safeguards.  I infer it by use of sarcasm.  

You are again taking everything to extremes, then arguing that issue as
if the originator of the statement also took things to extremes.  Please
read what was typed and respond to what was typed, not your translation
of what was typed.


On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 10:55 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV sprayed the Internet
with:

The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
Any *one* of those should be sufficient.  *NONE* of the proposals do
anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
operator that he *should be in split*.
===

Clearly you are not reading, or comprehending, what is being said
here...  Many Ops here have said, (repeatedly), that the radio is
dropping out of Split for some reason, and they are not noticing it.
Hence your premise that the Ops need to be told they *should be in
split* is deeply flawed.  

Clearly there is an issue Joe...  There are just too many people
requesting a change.


On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 10:55 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV heaved up the
following:

The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*.  The correct
approach would be:  every time the operator activates transmit, the rig
display should show a message that says you are in transceive (simplex)
- are you sure you should not engage split?  Press XMIT to begin
transmitting
=== 
Again, using the Extreme card to make a point that just does not cut the
mustard on it's own...  

For those of us that make mistakes Joe, (unlike yourself evidently),
there is an issue here...
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
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for MM-SSTV see:
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 73,
 
 ... Joe, W4TV
 
 
 On 2015-02-18 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote:
  Dave (AB9CA),
 
  Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
  lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
  just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.
 
  Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
  indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
  indicate is not the case.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Hi Gary,
THANK YOU!  That is exactly what has been happening here as well... I
will find myself out of split after checking a spot.
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
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On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 11:39 -0500, Gary Smith wrote:
 It is the operator of the radio who must be in control of his 
 transmitter. When I go to a split operation I always set the K3 to do 
 that and I'm good to go. 
 
 However what happens is I rarely make the Q right away and I I'll 
 click on another spot I need to see how that is coming in and with my 
 software, if there is a split frequency entered, the K3 will be put 
 in split as well (All is good). But, when going back to the first 
 frequency, unless I manually work the band switch to QSY to where I 
 first set up the split, clicking on a spot in the spot log will get 
 me there but if SPLIT wasn't in that info, I'll be back but not in 
 SPLIT. When I transmit I'll be dead on the DX.
 
 If I had clicked on a spot on the same band, I may or may not have 
 had a SPLIT entered based on the info the spotter had left. So if 
 there was no SPLIT, then QSYing back to the first frequency, I'd 
 again have no SPLIT.
 
 The problem being that I had set up a split the first time but later 
 left the frequency and going back to it, I have to check to see if 
 I'm still in split. Yes, the responsibility is mine to do so but it's 
 easy to be curious about other possible Qs and then having your 
 original settings be undone without you thinking about it.
 
 I suspect some version of that scenario happens to most people. For 
 me, seeing the words in color on the P3 would be an in your face 
 reminder you are in split or not. I'd love to be able to select that 
 option, others may not want to but it would save my can, you betcha.
 
 73,
 
 Gary  KA1J
  
Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
indicate is not the case.
  
  Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
  or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
  accident.  That's not possible - there are those who can break an
  anvil.
  
  The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
  Any *one* of those should be sufficient.  *NONE* of the proposals do
  anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
  operator that he *should be in split*.
  
  The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*.  The
  correct approach would be:  every time the operator activates transmit,
  the rig display should show a message that says you are in transceive
  (simplex) - are you sure you should not engage split?  Press XMIT to
  begin transmitting
  
  73,
  
  ... Joe, W4TV
  
  
  On 2015-02-18 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote:
   Dave (AB9CA),
  
   Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
   lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
   just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.
  
   Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
   indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
   indicate is not the case.
  
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Wes (N7WS)


There you go, a 75A-4 and a DX-100.


On 2/18/2015 10:22 AM, george fritkin via Elecraft wrote:

I make it easy. I use two radios.
George, W6GF

  O


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

I agree, this would work for me, and then the people that simply can't
stand it flashing, can turn it off...
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 11:05 -0600, Dwayne Rohmer wrote:

 I suggested CONFIG: DELTA-F LED (nor or FLASH) as a solution to those 
 that need another flag to indicate SPLIT. If you don't want it, you 
 wouldn't have to configure it.


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Be aware that this can be a huge problem when dealing with support or 
asking for help, or even when someone walks up to your radio and theirs 
works differently.


I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I can see flaws in all of 
the suggestions.


For example, blinking a LED when transmitting means the operator has to 
notice that the LED isn't blinking and should be.


Warning that you aren't operating split is an annoyance if you aren't 
working a DX station running splits.


-- Lynn

On 2/18/2015 10:19 AM, Larry Boekeloo wrote:

Just make the choices an option in the config setting.  Then, like everything 
else on my beloved K3, it'll work the way i want it to work.


Larry, KN8N



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Wes (N7WS)

Yep.  Pity the guy who still tunes to find DX and hasn't see a spot with split 
info.  He hears one of these stations and starts calling after a few QRZs.  
He's lit on with a vengeance.


Same thing with DX working by continents or call areas that don't regularly 
announce that either.  Then you get, He's working JAs you moron.


Wes  N7WS

.On 2/18/2015 9:46 AM, dave wrote:


 The only real solution is signal decoding
 that listens for UP and automatically engages split.

Even this won't work for those ops who rarely send UP. I listened to one DX 
last evening, TI9/xx, who went 20 min without ID'ing and *never* sent UP.




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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings


On 2015-02-18 12:05 PM, Dwayne Rohmer wrote:
 I suggested CONFIG: DELTA-F LED (nor or FLASH) as a solution to those
 that need another flag to indicate SPLIT. If you don't want it, you
 wouldn't have to configure it.

I agree that this is the least cost and least objectionable *additional*
split indicator.


Since the objective is to easily determine or verify the transmit
frequency with SPLIT, RIT, and XIT ops, maybe a CONFIG option could
enable the Transmit frequency (in this case, VFO B) to flash three
times on key down, but only when operating SPLIT, RIT, and XIT.


 I propose CONFIG: Tx FREQ (nor or FLASH).

How about ... the transmit VFO - whichever VFO is selected - display
blinks when transmitting.  In addition to CONFIG:TX FREQ (NOR | FLASH)
include CONFIG: DISP FLASH (ON | TX ONLY) to select whether the TX VFO
will flash ALL THE TIME or only in transmit.  That way, those who want
an in your face display can have it in spades.

After all, SPLIT is an English word and may not be understandable by
all potential users of the transceiver - particularly those for whom
English is not their first or even second language.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings



On 2015-02-18 1:08 PM, David Cole wrote:
 Clearly you are not reading, or comprehending, what is being said
 here...

I am reading *and* comprehending what has been said here.  I've even
been guilty of not being split when I should be but *never* more than
one or two transmissions and most often when the DX is not announcing
that he's listening split.  I make it a habit to check the Delta-F
LED and/or the [SPLIT] icon before calling any station.


The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*. The
correct approach would be: every time the operator activates
transmit, the rig display should show a message that says you are
in transceive (simplex) - are you sure you should not engage split?
Press XMIT to begin transmitting

 ===

Again, using the Extreme card to make a point that just does not cut
the mustard on it's own...


The need another indicator chant is extreme in itself.  If three on
the K3 and two on the P3 are not enough how many does it take?  How
distraction needs to be added until a distracted operator becomes
focused?

It is not logical to believe that one can focus a distracted operator
by pouring on additional distractions but if you want it simply do
an option that will cause the VFO A or VFO B display (whichever is
selected for transmit) to blink full time and to prevent anyone from
missing that distraction inhibit transmit if the second line of the
display is not showing VFO B.

No matter how many guardrails you install, there will always be some
fool who drives into that curve 10 MPH faster than the guardrails can
handle.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-02-18 1:08 PM, David Cole wrote:

On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 10:55 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV spewed:

Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
accident.  That's not possible - there are those who can break an anvil.
===

Untrue Joe...  No where do I imply that it should be impossible for an
accident to happen.  In fact I infer just the opposite, that there
should be safeguards.  I infer it by use of sarcasm.

You are again taking everything to extremes, then arguing that issue as
if the originator of the statement also took things to extremes.  Please
read what was typed and respond to what was typed, not your translation
of what was typed.


On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 10:55 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV sprayed the Internet
with:

The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
Any *one* of those should be sufficient.  *NONE* of the proposals do
anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
operator that he *should be in split*.
===

Clearly you are not reading, or comprehending, what is being said
here...  Many Ops here have said, (repeatedly), that the radio is
dropping out of Split for some reason, and they are not noticing it.
Hence your premise that the Ops need to be told they *should be in
split* is deeply flawed.

Clearly there is an issue Joe...  There are just too many people
requesting a change.


On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 10:55 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV heaved up the
following:

The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*.  The correct
approach would be:  every time the operator activates transmit, the rig
display should show a message that says you are in transceive (simplex)
- are you sure you should not engage split?  Press XMIT to begin
transmitting
===
Again, using the Extreme card to make a point that just does not cut the
mustard on it's own...

For those of us that make mistakes Joe, (unlike yourself evidently),
there is an issue here...


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Richard Ferch

It's nice to see some recognition that the issue is not the same for 
people using two receivers as for people using a single receiver, but I 
am not sure how well the proposed solution will actually work in the 
two-receiver sub-RX implied split (or reverse split) situation.


When I am using sub-RX implied split, the K3's SPLIT indicator is off, 
because I am transmitting on VFO A. The proposed solution would show 
NON.SPLT on the VFO B display, which is not correct in this situation 
(I am actually operating split, listening on VFO B and transmitting on 
VFO A). If I manage somehow to leave my K3 in SPLIT mode with the DX in 
the subRX, I will be transmitting on the DX frequency but the VFO A 
display will show SPLIT even though in this case I am erroneously 
operating non-split.


I also operate SO2V in many contests, meaning that I have two logging 
windows open in my contest software, one for each VFO. If I choose to 
work someone non-split from the VFO B logging window, the software 
automatically puts the K3 into SPLIT mode in order to transmit on VFO B. 
The VFO A display would show SPLIT while I am transmitting, but 
actually I am not operating split.


The real problem is that the rig cannot read my mind. It has no way of 
knowing whether I am listening to the other station on the main RX or 
the subRX, hence whether I am actually operating split or non-split. My 
solution to this is to ignore the K3's display and never use the SPLIT 
button on the radio, i.e. to do all split- or VFO B-related operations 
from software. The software knows my intention because it gives me a way 
to tell it what I want to do, whereas until someone comes up with a 
mind-reading module, the radio cannot know my real intention.


73,
Rich VE3KI


Wayne Burdick wrote:


This method also works whether you're doing real split (RX on VFO A, TX on 
VFO B) \
or sub-RX implied split (TX on VFO A, RX with sub on VFO B).


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Useful analysis, Rich. I agree this might cause some confusion.

Here's a simpler variation. Suppose we give operators the option of briefly 
flashing the entire transmit VFO frequency off/on once each time you start 
keying? This would duplicate the intent of the TX arrow, which points to 
either A or B but is small enough to get lost unless you're looking right 
at it. No new semantics -- just a more visible TX VFO indication.

This wouldn't tell you whether you're in split mode. But flashing the A vs. B 
displays would look quite different to the eye, so you'd quickly get used to 
looking for the right one as confirmation of your intent.

Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:14 PM, Richard Ferch ve3...@storm.ca wrote:

 It's nice to see some recognition that the issue is not the same for people 
 using two receivers as for people using a single receiver, but I am not sure 
 how well the proposed solution will actually work in the two-receiver sub-RX 
 implied split (or reverse split) situation.
 
 When I am using sub-RX implied split, the K3's SPLIT indicator is off, 
 because I am transmitting on VFO A. The proposed solution would show 
 NON.SPLT on the VFO B display, which is not correct in this situation (I am 
 actually operating split, listening on VFO B and transmitting on VFO A). If I 
 manage somehow to leave my K3 in SPLIT mode with the DX in the subRX, I will 
 be transmitting on the DX frequency but the VFO A display will show SPLIT 
 even though in this case I am erroneously operating non-split.
 
 I also operate SO2V in many contests, meaning that I have two logging windows 
 open in my contest software, one for each VFO. If I choose to work someone 
 non-split from the VFO B logging window, the software automatically puts the 
 K3 into SPLIT mode in order to transmit on VFO B. The VFO A display would 
 show SPLIT while I am transmitting, but actually I am not operating split.
 
 The real problem is that the rig cannot read my mind. It has no way of 
 knowing whether I am listening to the other station on the main RX or the 
 subRX, hence whether I am actually operating split or non-split. My solution 
 to this is to ignore the K3's display and never use the SPLIT button on the 
 radio, i.e. to do all split- or VFO B-related operations from software. The 
 software knows my intention because it gives me a way to tell it what I want 
 to do, whereas until someone comes up with a mind-reading module, the radio 
 cannot know my real intention.
 
 73,
 Rich VE3KI



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Mike Reublin NF4L

If it's an option, OK, but I am convinced that if an op misses the existing two 
indicators on the LCD display, and the Δf yellow LED, then more indicators 
aren't gonna help. And I am unanimous in my opinion.

I'd much rather see the effort go into separating VOX for data from VOX for SSB.

73, Mike NF4L

 On Feb 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote:
 
 Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this behavior:
 
 - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A is TX 
 in this case.)
 
 - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX in 
 this case.)
 
 So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you 
 need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.
 
 The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the change 
 in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come on when 
 you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being retriggered each 
 time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like, just watch the RX 
 and TX metering scales as you key the radio.
 
 It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX station 
 on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to get your 
 attention.
 
 It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire 
 contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A 
 knob, where the action is.
 
 Wayne
 N6KR
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings



 Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is
 in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real
 errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're
 having this conversation.

The problem is that you're still trying to reinforce a negative.  The
normal operation is simplex - none of the additional indicators will
do anything to reinforce to an operator set for simplex that he
*should be* split.

These indicators only work if the operator *knows he should be split*
and if he knows that the current indicators - three on the K3, two in
the P3 - are enough to let him know that split is engaged.

Even experienced operators can get distracted.  It is not the lack
of sufficient indicators that is the distraction - it is not thinking
before pressing the PTT switch and even the best can forget to look
before transmitting.


And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon horn, and a Van
de Graf generator to the K3's user interface, we have to work within
the limits of the existing hardware.


Unfortunately those are all static indications *when split is engaged*
- they still do not (and can not) tell the operator that split *should*
*be* engaged when it is not.  The only real solution is signal decoding
that listens for UP and automatically engages split.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-02-18 11:00 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

User interface design is often called upon to make up for human
failings. We get distracted, we forget, we have trouble breaking bad
habits, we easily acquire new ones. This is true no matter how much
training we have. The designer tries to take such issues into account
up front, but sometimes we find out later and make adjustments.

My cognitive science professor, Don Norman, put a heavy emphasis on
embedding knowledge in the world. Signs and indicators need to be
as unambiguous as possible to help those of us who can't or won't pay
attention. Ideally the indications are intuitive, so users adapt to
them easily and don't feel oppressed by them. That distinction is in
play here. And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon
horn, and a Van de Graf generator to the K3's user interface, we have
to work within the limits of the existing hardware.

Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is
in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real
errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're
having this conversation.

Wayne N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings


On Feb 18, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Mike Reublin NF4L n...@comcast.net wrote:

 If it's an option, OK, but I am convinced that if an op misses the existing 
 two indicators on the LCD display, and the Δf yellow LED, then more 
 indicators aren't gonna help. And I am unanimous in my opinion.

:)

Well, I'm not sure I agree. Yes, there are three indicators, but they're all 
quite small, and the delta-F LED is off to the side. These methods of 
indicating split all seemed like a great idea at the time, but even I miss them 
sometimes, so I'm interested in trying something else. 

My proposed split and non-split text indications might solve the didn't 
see the indicators problem, because they occupy so much more area of the front 
panel (about 20 times more). That seems to be the crux of the issue: a lot of 
operators want something *BIG* to change stage when they transmit, and that 
something has to indicate whether they're in split or not. 

This method also works whether you're doing real split (RX on VFO A, TX on 
VFO B) or sub-RX implied split (TX on VFO A, RX with sub on VFO B).

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Phil Wheeler

The fact that the K3 has the blessings of 
Cognitive Science is most reassuring, Wayne. :-)


Phil W7OX

On 2/18/15 8:00 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

User interface design is often called upon to make up for human failings. We 
get distracted, we forget, we have trouble breaking bad habits, we easily 
acquire new ones. This is true no matter how much training we have. The 
designer tries to take such issues into account up front, but sometimes we find 
out later and make adjustments.

My cognitive science professor, Don Norman, put a heavy emphasis on embedding knowledge 
in the world. Signs and indicators need to be as unambiguous as possible to 
help those of us who can't or won't pay attention. Ideally the indications are intuitive, 
so users adapt to them easily and don't feel oppressed by them. That distinction is in 
play here. And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon horn, and a Van de Graf 
generator to the K3's user interface, we have to work within the limits of the existing 
hardware.

Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is in the 
tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real errors that people 
make, then minimizing them. That's why we're having this conversation.

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Phil Wheeler


Bravo!

Phil W7OX

On 2/18/15 7:30 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Any change we make in the way split is indicated would have to be enabled using 
a menu entry. The present behavior will remain the default.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Chester Alderman

Now that is a GREAT idea!
73,
Tom - W4BQF

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:30 AM
To: Carey Magee
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Any change we make in the way split is indicated would have to be enabled
using a menu entry. The present behavior will remain the default.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Carey Magee arsk2...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi All:

 Would this be able to be set as an option in the Menu/Config Menu?  I
currently am fine with split indication. If I include my logging program I
currently have 4 indicators to remind me.

 Thanks

 73,
 Carey Magee, K2RNY
 Rochester New York
 Grid: FN13ef
 arsk2...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote:
 Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this
behavior:

 - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A 
 is TX in this case.)

 - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX 
 in this case.)

 So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you
need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.

 The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the
change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come
on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being
retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like,
just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you key the radio.

 It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX
station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to
get your attention.

 It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire
contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A
knob, where the action is.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings



 Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
 indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
 indicate is not the case.

Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
accident.  That's not possible - there are those who can break an
anvil.

The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
Any *one* of those should be sufficient.  *NONE* of the proposals do
anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
operator that he *should be in split*.

The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*.  The
correct approach would be:  every time the operator activates transmit,
the rig display should show a message that says you are in transceive
(simplex) - are you sure you should not engage split?  Press XMIT to
begin transmitting

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-02-18 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote:

Dave (AB9CA),

Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.

Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
indicate is not the case.


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread brian


Reminds me of a snippett from a pileup:

Unknown station: IK5XXXQ UP UP UP don't you understand English?
Of course we have the same problem with guys trying to use code readers.
 Either they are not decoding  UP or don't understand what UP means.

73 de Brian/K3KO
On 2/18/2015 15:33 PM, Ted Roycraft wrote:
Bingo! No amount of flashing on the K3 screen is going to correct poor 
operating habits.  Nothing can substitute for good operating practices 
which become habits.   It takes 2 seconds to check the K3 status 
before sending.  Make a habit.  If you don't do that, you won't see 
anything flashing on the screen either.


I think that one menu item that is already there that can help is 
SPLIT SV.  Set it to YES.


73, Ted, W2ZK

On 2/18/2015 10:17 AM, dave wrote:


I dunno . . .

What we are doing is attempting to address an op who is not paying 
attention. But, if the op is not paying attention, how is any of this 
going to have any effect? I think it is all a waste of time and effort.


If someone is not paying attention, they are not paying attention, 
and the *only* cure is for them to being paying attention to what 
they are doing.


I don't think the various band aids being discussed will help. The 
guy is still not going to be paying attention. He is distracted by 
something else.


I would suggest that the time spent, which might well be wasted on 
this project, be used for something more productive. The K3 is fine 
as it is. It is the op that is the problem, not the K3.


73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 2/18/15 9:02 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this 
behavior:


- If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. 
(A is TX in this case.)


- If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is 
TX in this case.)


So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still 
displayed (you need to know that), but the RX display is used to 
provide a warning.


The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with 
the change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT 
would come on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the 
timer being retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what 
that would look like, just watch the RX and TX metering scales as 
you key the radio.


It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX 
station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come 
and go to get your attention.


It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the 
entire contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close 
to the VFO A knob, where the action is.


Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings




please consider the addition of something on the P3 to indicate
split.


It's *ALREADY THERE* - the Transmit (VFO B) cursor is *RED* when
split.  In addition, there is a separate (*THIRD*) red cursor
showing the transmit frequency when XIT is engaged.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-02-18 10:31 AM, David Cole wrote:

Wayne,
If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of
something on the P3 to indicate split.  Most of my eye action is on the
P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

User interface design is often called upon to make up for human failings. We 
get distracted, we forget, we have trouble breaking bad habits, we easily 
acquire new ones. This is true no matter how much training we have. The 
designer tries to take such issues into account up front, but sometimes we find 
out later and make adjustments.

My cognitive science professor, Don Norman, put a heavy emphasis on embedding 
knowledge in the world. Signs and indicators need to be as unambiguous as 
possible to help those of us who can't or won't pay attention. Ideally the 
indications are intuitive, so users adapt to them easily and don't feel 
oppressed by them. That distinction is in play here. And while I'd love to add 
a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon horn, and a Van de Graf generator to the K3's user 
interface, we have to work within the limits of the existing hardware.

Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is in the 
tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real errors that people 
make, then minimizing them. That's why we're having this conversation.

Wayne
N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Joe,

Just because there are three indicators for SPLIT already doesn't mean that the 
problem has been solved. Even crack operators have admitted during the past few 
days that they occasionally forget their split state, with embarrassing 
consequences. This is proof that the indications can and should be improved, if 
possible. See my previous posting.

Wayne
N6KR


On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:58 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com wrote:

 
 please consider the addition of something on the P3 to indicate
 split.
 
 It's *ALREADY THERE* - the Transmit (VFO B) cursor is *RED* when
 split.  In addition, there is a separate (*THIRD*) red cursor
 showing the transmit frequency when XIT is engaged.
 
 73,
 
  ... Joe, W4TV
 
 
 On 2015-02-18 10:31 AM, David Cole wrote:
 Wayne,
 If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of
 something on the P3 to indicate split.  Most of my eye action is on the
 P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Any change we make in the way split is indicated would have to be enabled using 
a menu entry. The present behavior will remain the default.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Carey Magee arsk2...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi All:
 
 Would this be able to be set as an option in the Menu/Config Menu?  I 
 currently am fine with split indication. If I include my logging program I 
 currently have 4 indicators to remind me.
 
 Thanks  
 
 73,
 Carey Magee, K2RNY
 Rochester New York
 Grid: FN13ef
 arsk2...@gmail.com
 
 On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote:
 Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this behavior:
 
 - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A is TX 
 in this case.)
 
 - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX in 
 this case.)
 
 So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you 
 need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.
 
 The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the change 
 in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come on when 
 you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being retriggered each 
 time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like, just watch the RX 
 and TX metering scales as you key the radio.
 
 It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX station 
 on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to get your 
 attention.
 
 It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire 
 contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A 
 knob, where the action is.
 
 Wayne
 N6KR
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Wayne,
If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of
something on the P3 to indicate split.  Most of my eye action is on the
P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.  
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 07:02 -0800, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this behavior:
 
 - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A is TX 
 in this case.)
 
 - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX in 
 this case.)
 
 So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you 
 need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.
 
 The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the change 
 in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come on when 
 you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being retriggered each 
 time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like, just watch the RX 
 and TX metering scales as you key the radio.
 
 It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX station 
 on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to get your 
 attention.
 
 It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire 
 contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A 
 knob, where the action is.
 
 Wayne
 N6KR
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Ted Roycraft

Bingo!  No amount of flashing on the K3 screen is going to correct poor 
operating habits.  Nothing can substitute for good operating practices 
which become habits.   It takes 2 seconds to check the K3 status before 
sending.  Make a habit.  If you don't do that, you won't see anything 
flashing on the screen either.


I think that one menu item that is already there that can help is SPLIT 
SV.  Set it to YES.


73, Ted, W2ZK

On 2/18/2015 10:17 AM, dave wrote:


I dunno . . .

What we are doing is attempting to address an op who is not paying 
attention. But, if the op is not paying attention, how is any of this 
going to have any effect? I think it is all a waste of time and effort.


If someone is not paying attention, they are not paying attention, and 
the *only* cure is for them to being paying attention to what they are 
doing.


I don't think the various band aids being discussed will help. The guy 
is still not going to be paying attention. He is distracted by 
something else.


I would suggest that the time spent, which might well be wasted on 
this project, be used for something more productive. The K3 is fine as 
it is. It is the op that is the problem, not the K3.


73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 2/18/15 9:02 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this 
behavior:


- If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. 
(A is TX in this case.)


- If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is 
TX in this case.)


So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed 
(you need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a 
warning.


The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with 
the change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT 
would come on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the 
timer being retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what 
that would look like, just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you 
key the radio.


It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX 
station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and 
go to get your attention.


It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the 
entire contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close 
to the VFO A knob, where the action is.


Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Dave (AB9CA),

Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.

Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
indicate is not the case.
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Wed, 2015-02-18 at 09:17 -0600, dave wrote:
 I dunno . . .
 
 What we are doing is attempting to address an op who is not paying 
 attention. But, if the op is not paying attention, how is any of this 
 going to have any effect? I think it is all a waste of time and effort.


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Chester Alderman

Dave,

I think what you are saying is exactly the case. Bless their soul, Elecraft
is trying to solve a human issue because folks don't pay attention to what
they are doing. The K3 works just fine and it is, in my opinion, NOT
Elecrafts task to solve the human issue.

73,
Tom - W4BQF


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:17 AM
To: Wayne Burdick; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings


I dunno . . .

What we are doing is attempting to address an op who is not paying
attention. But, if the op is not paying attention, how is any of this going
to have any effect? I think it is all a waste of time and effort.

If someone is not paying attention, they are not paying attention, and the
*only* cure is for them to being paying attention to what they are doing.

I don't think the various band aids being discussed will help. The guy is
still not going to be paying attention. He is distracted by something else.

I would suggest that the time spent, which might well be wasted on this
project, be used for something more productive. The K3 is fine as it is. It
is the op that is the problem, not the K3.

73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 2/18/15 9:02 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
 Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this
behavior:

 - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A 
 is TX in this case.)

 - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX 
 in this case.)

 So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you
need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.

 The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the
change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come
on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being
retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like,
just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you key the radio.

 It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX
station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to
get your attention.

 It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire
contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A
knob, where the action is.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread dave

I dunno . . .

What we are doing is attempting to address an op who is not paying
attention. But, if the op is not paying attention, how is any of this
going to have any effect? I think it is all a waste of time and effort.

If someone is not paying attention, they are not paying attention, and
the *only* cure is for them to being paying attention to what they are
doing.

I don't think the various band aids being discussed will help. The guy
is still not going to be paying attention. He is distracted by
something else.

I would suggest that the time spent, which might well be wasted on
this project, be used for something more productive. The K3 is fine as
it is. It is the op that is the problem, not the K3.

73 de dave
ab9ca/4

On 2/18/15 9:02 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this behavior:

- If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A is TX in
this case.)

- If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX in this
case.)

So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you need
to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.

It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX station on
the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to get your attention.

It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire
contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A knob,
where the action is.

Wayne
N6KR

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[Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this behavior:

- If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A is TX in 
this case.)

- If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX in this 
case.)

So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you need 
to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.

The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the change 
in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come on when 
you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being retriggered each time 
you key. To get an idea of what that would look like, just watch the RX and TX 
metering scales as you key the radio.

It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX station on 
the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to get your 
attention.

It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire 
contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A knob, 
where the action is.

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread mike

Although I don't have a major problem the way it works now, I think the
change you suggest would actually help. There are times when I have made the
error of not operating split when I have wanted to, in spite of the current
indicators. I do watch the frequency readouts, so emphasizing the SPLIT
there I think would be a good upgrade. 73  ..mike  AI6II



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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Carey Magee

Hi All:

Would this be able to be set as an option in the Menu/Config Menu?  I
currently am fine with split indication. If I include my logging program I
currently have 4 indicators to remind me.

Thanks

73,
Carey Magee, K2RNY
Rochester New York
Grid: FN13ef
arsk2...@gmail.com

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote:

 Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this
 behavior:

 - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows NON.SPLT on VFO B. (A is
 TX in this case.)

 - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows SPLIT on VFO A. (B is TX in
 this case.)

 So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you
 need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.

 The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the
 change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the NON.SPLT or SPLIT would come
 on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being
 retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like,
 just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you key the radio.

 It's not a flashing message, per se, but if you were calling a DX
 station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to
 get your attention.

 It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire
 contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A
 knob, where the action is.

 Wayne
 N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com wrote:

 
  Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is
  in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real
  errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're
  having this conversation.
 
 The problem is that you're still trying to reinforce a negative.  The
 normal operation is simplex - none of the additional indicators will
 do anything to reinforce to an operator set for simplex that he
 *should be* split.

It is partly a matter of training, and you're right, we can't solve that part 
of the problem.

But we *can* improve the visibility of split/non-split state information, and 
there's a lot of evidence that even well-trained operators could benefit from 
that. No one remembers to be in or out of split as required 100% of the time.

If we can solve part of the problem in firmware (by improving visibility), why 
not? At least this thread might then only come up semiannually. 

Meanwhile, the experts on split, including you, could help correct the other 
part of the problem by writing educational articles about split operation for 
ham magazines and web forums.

Wayne
N6KR


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[Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Guy

Wayne,

While you are adding this warning feature, can you also add a cricket
sound that randomly chirps?  User configurable, of course.  Partly for the
amazement factor, partly to keep me company late at night while chasing
DX.  And it should only operate while I'm in split mode.

Maybe you could port some old code

-- 
Guy/N7UN
http://www.n7un.com
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Gary Smith

It is the operator of the radio who must be in control of his 
transmitter. When I go to a split operation I always set the K3 to do 
that and I'm good to go. 

However what happens is I rarely make the Q right away and I I'll 
click on another spot I need to see how that is coming in and with my 
software, if there is a split frequency entered, the K3 will be put 
in split as well (All is good). But, when going back to the first 
frequency, unless I manually work the band switch to QSY to where I 
first set up the split, clicking on a spot in the spot log will get 
me there but if SPLIT wasn't in that info, I'll be back but not in 
SPLIT. When I transmit I'll be dead on the DX.

If I had clicked on a spot on the same band, I may or may not have 
had a SPLIT entered based on the info the spotter had left. So if 
there was no SPLIT, then QSYing back to the first frequency, I'd 
again have no SPLIT.

The problem being that I had set up a split the first time but later 
left the frequency and going back to it, I have to check to see if 
I'm still in split. Yes, the responsibility is mine to do so but it's 
easy to be curious about other possible Qs and then having your 
original settings be undone without you thinking about it.

I suspect some version of that scenario happens to most people. For 
me, seeing the words in color on the P3 would be an in your face 
reminder you are in split or not. I'd love to be able to select that 
option, others may not want to but it would save my can, you betcha.

73,

Gary  KA1J
 
   Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
   indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
   indicate is not the case.
 
 Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
 or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
 accident.  That's not possible - there are those who can break an
 anvil.
 
 The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
 Any *one* of those should be sufficient.  *NONE* of the proposals do
 anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
 operator that he *should be in split*.
 
 The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*.  The
 correct approach would be:  every time the operator activates transmit,
 the rig display should show a message that says you are in transceive
 (simplex) - are you sure you should not engage split?  Press XMIT to
 begin transmitting
 
 73,
 
 ... Joe, W4TV
 
 
 On 2015-02-18 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote:
  Dave (AB9CA),
 
  Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
  lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
  just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.
 
  Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
  indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
  indicate is not the case.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread dave



 The only real solution is signal decoding
 that listens for UP and automatically engages split.

Even this won't work for those ops who rarely send UP. I listened to 
one DX last evening, TI9/xx, who went 20 min without ID'ing and 
*never* sent UP.


And . . . if you were to put decoding of UP in there . . . all the net 
ops, who send guys UP to pass traffic, will commence their complaining.


No matter how many dancing bears may be on the various displays, if 
the guy is not paying attention, he will see none of them. Simple truth.


The K3 already has 3 annunciators for SPLIT, plus the P3 has two more. 
I doubt that adding one or two more will make any difference. The 
problem is that the op is not watching what he already has.


And since non-split is the usual mode, no annunciator is needed for that.

Good UI's can aid an attentive user, but they cannot overcome the lack 
of the user paying attention to the UI, which is the issue here.


73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 2/18/15 10:24 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


  Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is
  in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real
  errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're
  having this conversation.

The problem is that you're still trying to reinforce a negative.  The
normal operation is simplex - none of the additional indicators will
do anything to reinforce to an operator set for simplex that he
*should be* split.

These indicators only work if the operator *knows he should be split*
and if he knows that the current indicators - three on the K3, two in
the P3 - are enough to let him know that split is engaged.

Even experienced operators can get distracted.  It is not the lack
of sufficient indicators that is the distraction - it is not thinking
before pressing the PTT switch and even the best can forget to look
before transmitting.


And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon horn, and a Van
de Graf generator to the K3's user interface, we have to work within
the limits of the existing hardware.


Unfortunately those are all static indications *when split is engaged*
- they still do not (and can not) tell the operator that split *should*
*be* engaged when it is not.  The only real solution is signal decoding
that listens for UP and automatically engages split.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-02-18 11:00 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

User interface design is often called upon to make up for human
failings. We get distracted, we forget, we have trouble breaking bad
habits, we easily acquire new ones. This is true no matter how much
training we have. The designer tries to take such issues into account
up front, but sometimes we find out later and make adjustments.

My cognitive science professor, Don Norman, put a heavy emphasis on
embedding knowledge in the world. Signs and indicators need to be
as unambiguous as possible to help those of us who can't or won't pay
attention. Ideally the indications are intuitive, so users adapt to
them easily and don't feel oppressed by them. That distinction is in
play here. And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon
horn, and a Van de Graf generator to the K3's user interface, we have
to work within the limits of the existing hardware.

Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is
in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real
errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're
having this conversation.

Wayne N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings

2015-02-18 Thread Phil Wheeler

Are you suggesting that such notifications appear 
on the LCD display, that the K3 assess your 
behavior and show it to you? :-)


Phil W7OX

On 2/18/15 9:46 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

With all due respect, however..

There are two times during a contest when I can get tripped up with
SPLT or LINK or anything else that is not a firm habit or totally
rote:

STUPID -- my usual state after 24 hours with only scattered sleep,
worsened by pileups not there to keep me energized and rates gone down
and having to slog it out. Nothing fixes STUPID except 8 uninterrupted
hours of sleep and cranial transplants. No flashy, whizzy change on
the panel display will fix STUPID.

LAZY -- That's when I get on because there's nothing else to do, I'm
sleepy but can't go to sleep. More to the point, my basic attitude is
irritated, irritated at whatever. Anything that bothers me is someone
else's fault. My wife leaves me alone when I'm like that. I try not to
write emails when I'm like that. I screw up SPLT because I'm not
paying attention, because I don't want to pay attention. No flashy,
whizzy change on the panel display will fix LAZY.

DISTRACTED -- That's when there's more than one thing going on. That
would be radio plus whatever. The whatever's are around all the time,
need to scratch my b*tt, a bird flies past the window, a dog barks,
multi/multi contest and the rates are down and the other ops are
sending limericks around on the MM network. DISTRACTED is something we
all need to manage, and don't want to, see LAZY. No flashy, whizzy
change on the panel display will fix DISTRACTED.

PAYING ATTENTION is the owner's responsibility. No one else's.

SOME things would fix what seem, by the greater experience in Elecraft
owner land, to be natural born trip hazards. Like guard rails to
minimize the damage when a driver runs off the road, but the driver is
still responsible.

Could be an option to flash the delta f LED, but that is as far as I'd
go. But even then after a time people will even tune out the flashing
delta f LED. I normally do NOT perceive the flashing TX LED while I'm
operating. Flashing TX LED is normal, and my mind has tuned out
normal, looking listening for what's different, like the sound and
smell of the Sabre-Tooth Tiger, back in my cave man days.

The effect of flashy, whizzy change on the panel display will last
until the subconscious human brain figures out that flashy, whizzy
change on the panel display is NORMAL, and then the subconscious will
tune it out, so it can listen for the Sabre-Tooth Tiger.

73, Guy


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Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both SPLIT and NON-SPLIT warnings