[PSES] How to take down your 10+ Gig and more

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have a treasure trove of data on most currently available ESD simulators for 
waveform purity and E-field emissions. The data took most of a week of my time 
to generate and $100,000+ of equipment, mostly donated for the purpose.

One clear message that comes out of the data is that by far the worst case ESD 
hit on a fast data rate system is not what you think it is. A 2kV air discharge 
applied a certain, common, way is worse than any other ESD event.

Also in the data, we are testing for ESD stress that cannot happen in the 
environment, thereby wasting resources.

Also in the data, you can pass or fail an ESD test, depending on what you want, 
by just selecting the right simulator!

I am going to do a complimentary presentation of this data in July, normally a 
few thousand dollars, coupled with my three day, PCB/system debug class in 
July, sort of a two for one summer doldrums event. The class is actually lower 
cost than the data presentation normally would be.

If interested, call, text, or email me for details.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] Product reliability in the field relating to standards testing

[doug emcesd.com]

IEC61000-4-2 has been around for a long time. About 30 years ago myself and 
others presented to tc-77b improvements that were (and still are) needed.
Those concerns still need to be addressed.  Our current standard has us 
addressing ESD stresses that cannot happen and on the other hand ignoring 
stresses that do happen. I touch on these in detail in my classes to help my 
clients.

Layer on this trying to arrive at a good model for real world conditions, an 
issue in all EMC related standards. I would like to address the human body 
model for a small piece of metal in the hand. My personal discharge, as 
measured by the instrumentation at Barth Electronics (right here in Boulder 
City, Nevada) is completely different than the model in 61000-4-2. The Barth 
instrumentation is the best in the world and I feel fortunate to be near them, 
about a 15 minute run away.

My small metal discharge is very different in two ways. First, the body wave 
after the first peak has much less energy in it than in the standard. This most 
likely is easily explained because I have an athletic body from 45,000 miles of 
running and most likely does not affect test results all that much.

However, my initial peak current is more than twice that in the standard using 
a 5 GHz bandwidth. Since the speed of light is one foot per nanosecond, nothing 
further away than my elbow can affect this part of the discharge waveform. And, 
this will affect test results. I think we need new data taken at a 5 GHz 
bandwidth.

Separate from the above, we would like to minimize field issues from 
environmental stresses. So, I developed an interesting apparatus using an 
instrument from the chemical/materials industry coupled with an easy to make 
"antenna" that generates radiated EMI that is very severe. It takes out HDMI 
and other signals in the room when it is in use. But if it does not affect a 
design one can be reasonably sure one's device is not going to have problems in 
the field or at least you will know what the product response is, and if it is 
dangerous. I just finished building a better antenna from parts in our local 
Ace Hardware store. Starting now I will be demonstrating it for my attendees as 
part of my seminars, including one coming up. It will be interesting to see how 
it affects different products.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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Re: [PSES] RFID testing per AIM 7351731

[doug emcesd.com]

Try NTS Fremont or Intertek.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: AOL MAIL 
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 7:57:03 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] RFID testing per AIM 7351731

Hi folks,

May I get recommendations for EMC lab in Bay Area (or West Coast) which is 
certified for testing RFID per AIM 7351731?

Appreciate any advice.

Thank you,
Eugene Peyzner

Fresenius Medical care


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[PSES] shielded probes do not work in the near field

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

The following three articles and the referenced paper from my website show 
that, contrary to popular belief, shielded magnetic field probes do not work in 
the near field. The E-field shielding in magnetic field probes only work in the 
far field or for fields that are symmetrical about the center line of the 
probe. Take a look at the articles:

  *   June 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 2, Parasitic 
Coupling
(Electric Field Shielding of Magnetic Loops is Not Always Effective!)
  *   July 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 3, Parasitic Coupling Between 
Unshielded Wire Loops
  *   August 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 4, Coupling to a 
PCB
(From Shielded and Unshielded Magnetic Loops)
  *   Signal and Noise Measurement Techniques Using Magnetic Field 
Probes (~600K)
 *   (1999 IEEE EMC Symposium paper)
Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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[PSES] design rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Some time ago I published a set of informal design rules of thumb from many 
industries that also apply to electrical engineering. Since it was a while ago 
and many likely missed it, I put the link below. This is an example of some of 
the unusual sources of information that are often found in my seminars and 
classes.

https://emcesd.com/tt2021/tt040621.htm

The link will bring you to my Technical Tidbit of April 6, 2021 and a 16 minute 
video as well as a set of the slides.

Just a word about me for those who do not know me well. I started my 
engineering education at age 10 resulting in me becoming a fully licensed 
engineer in the Radio and TV broadcast industry at the highest level of three 
at the time (First Class Commercial Radio Telepghone license). My first EMC 
problem solving came at about age 13 when the neighbors started complaining 
about my ham radio set. By age 15 I was doing consulting work for nearby police 
departments on wire taps and lie detectors. At ag 16 I built a Tesla coil 
powered by a pair of 811A high power short wave transmitting tubes. It 
developed about 600 watts of power at 300 kHz and generated fields of about 
10,000-20,000 Volts/meter.(I am still here and my kids had two arms, two legs, 
and one head, but at least I don't get big and green when upset.) It pretty 
much took out radio/TV services in my neighborhood and brought the Feds to my 
house, but that is another story.

So here I am (will be 77 in March) still doing engineering full time (and 
incorporating all that experience in my classes). Along the way I studied 
medicine as a hobby reading many thousands of pages of published research over 
the years. Currently I am in the top 6/10th of one % of all athletes worldwide 
of all ages for mileage run per year which is for me 3,000+ miles per year, a 
large portion of it at 110-115 degrees F in the Nevada desert! I can do this by 
applying my engineering knowledge of thermodynamics to running in the desert. 
An hour or two at 115F running in the desert is not stressful to m3! I design 
my own hydration drinks with the salt content a function of the dew point 
temperature. Give me a call if you are a runner!

BTW, my next design troubleshooting class is in early March, Contact me if you 
are interested.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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[PSES] ESD Simulators cause irreproducible results!

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

If you ever had issues with differing ESD test results between labs, you need 
to see my Technical Tidbit of November 2022,
https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm

Show that article to your test lab!

The data in the article represents about ½% of the total data I have with 
simulator brands identified (which I will not do in public). Contact me 
privately if you are interested in the more detailed data.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems

[doug emcesd.com]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. But in the case of ESD testing, IEC 
61000-4-2 is not a very good standard. We knew this in 1996 where work done by 
myself and others showed  that the waveform needs to have a di/dt spec to rule 
out the uncontrolled high frequency ringing many simulators generate that bear 
no connection to reality. This should be a reasonable simple design to do as 
one simulator already has no high frequency ringing on its current waveform.

In addition, we now know these same simulators have uncontrolled radiation as 
well that does not reflect what equipment is subjected to in the field.

All the work on the waveform was done about 30 years ago and should be in the 
IEC records.

All this causes companies to spend hundreds of millions of dollars (my estimate 
from familiarity with my client’s designs) per year in delayed product 
introductions, and to a small extent engineering costs. The costs to redesign 
simulators would be a tiny fraction of what the current costs to industry are 
in only one year.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Brent DeWitt 
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 5:05:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems

I suspect that folks who have been directly involved with air-discharge ESD can 
appreciate it's inherent, operator influenced, uncertainly.

Having run both internal and third party EMC test labs, I recognize that few 
things are done "perfectly" (whatever "perfect" is), but I've always considered 
it my responsibility to catch the errors and correct them before they influence 
my customers outcome.

The larger the lab, the more likely it is that the experience of the tester 
will vary.  I am not saying that the customer show bear the brunt of that, the 
lab should have test review processes in place to mitigate it.

Had to pitch in.

Brent DeWitt

On 8/12/2023 1:47 PM, John Mcbain wrote:
The basic question is, "How good is good enough?"
Risk standards for product safety address that question to some extent, but it 
applies to every lab measurement, whether the applicable standards (or 
regulations) consider it or not.

Best regards,
John McBain


On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 2:26 AM John Woodgate 
mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> wrote:

But crossing t's and dotting i's is exactly what is required by competence 
standards, including the several ISO 170XX series. Furthermore, standards 
specify performance of test equipment, if possible, and only if that is not 
possible, they specify design. If that is not possible, they specify 
construction, and indeed many CISPR and other standards specify test set-ups 
with elaborate drawings.

EMC testing is DIFFICULT. It does involve extensive experience and it is 
costly. Management systems are/should be in place to catch errors. Daily and 
weekly verifications are required. In many cases, running tests on a known 
sample are OK, but that's dodgy for ESD, because repeated testing WILL cause 
damage.

On 2023-08-12 03:25, Ken Javor wrote:

No way am I jumping in the middle of this debate, but it is extremely useful in 
another way.



A few observations:



ESD is by its very nature a chaotic event (air discharge more so than contact).



It is not entirely surprising that someone who has spent decades working on 
something would find examples of non-idealities in the work of technicians 
doing rote work following canned test procedures.  A test facility isn’t going 
to make a profit employing a septuagenarian devoted to crossing every “t” and 
dotting every “i.”  (Written by someone pushing that age bracket pretty hard).



IFF (if and only if) Mr. Smith’s observations are correct, that is an 
indictment of the test requirement/method. That is, it is the responsibility of 
the standards committees to write these such that they can be adequately 
performed by the average test facility and personnel. If it takes someone with 
five decades of experience, and they must spend an inordinate amount of time 
($$$) to get it right, then the standard is a failure.



--

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261



From: "doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=2PwUVOf-nkk5PGnCGiZ_awAOCLYGgF6VrmmUR0MyZYVG8A4TDFmh_VavNrLO9d-D=6y86ulvOYE9KMhGkDV_GoB-siQVeeaqGTdX8FXX3cRg=>"
 <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>
Reply-To: "doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMDaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=2PwUVOf-nkk5PGnCGiZ_awAOCLYGgF6VrmmUR0MyZYVG8A4TDFmh_VavNrLO9d-D=6y86ulvOYE9KMhGkDV_GoB-siQVeeaqGTdX8FXX3cRg=>"
 <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>
Date: Friday, August 11, 2023 at 11:26 AM
To: <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
S

Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems

[doug emcesd.com]

I didn’t say most labs are bad. Errors do happen and for me almost every lab I 
have used has made a mistake. These errors are rare but do happen and the 
effect of a single error can be very costly.

One lab made an especially bad mistake for a small company that engaged me that 
cost the company a lot of money, has since improved their game by instituting 
quality procedures they should have had anyway. The lab gave the company 
passing data but in fact the plot looked like the technician forgot to plug the 
antenna in, noise level of the instrumentation!

Based on that, the company signed a contract for price and delivery for a 
million units of their  product. The ultimate fix needed was a different core 
design of an inductor that cost them US $0.30. $300k is a lot of money for a 
small company.

I can give many more examples. Usually the problem causes a product to fail 
when it actually should have passed. I have many examples that happened to me 
over the last 40 years in both private and commercial labs.

The errors are still rare, but do happen. Over enough testing a person, like 
myself, will encounter an error with any given lab.

Of the errors I have encountered, three were the result of the staff in the lab 
not being competent (over a span of 40 years), the rest were just simple 
mistakes, maybe another dozen or so. Again, this was over decades, so rare, but 
many millions of dollars were at stake in each case.

In two cases, the lab personnel became a bit belligerent when I gently 
suggested they performed the test incorrectly. In both cases, the labs relented 
and retested after we examined the test standard and they realized they were 
testing incorrectly.

A lab client needs to keep an eye out to make sure such an error does not 
happen to them.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of great labs. One, in Silicon Valley, I 
consider to be the best in the industry! But they did make one mistake on a 
test for me years ago, minimal impact at the time and it can't happen again.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2023 07:02
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems


That's right. It is good to call attention to problems that may well be deeply 
hidden or not recognized as a possibility, but it is necessary to concentrate 
on the facts and leave out peripheral matters that don't help to deal with the 
issue.

On 2023-08-11 14:28, Larry K. Stillings wrote:
You could certainly word this in a different way that doesn’t generalize how 
“most” test labs are bad and/or incompetent. How about in the future you find a 
different way to word things.


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[PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Just a couple of thoughts on what a good lab should do for ESD testing and how 
to protect yourself as a client from test problems.


  1.  Bring an Ohmmeter with you to the lab and measure the resistance from the 
Horizontal Coupling Plane to the Ground Reference Plane. It should be about 2X 
470 K. I have seen both commercial test labs and private labs where these 
resistors are open which can cause a product failure. A good lab should measure 
this value every morning and report the result in your test report..
  2.  The vacuum relay in the ESD simulators have a limited life after which 
the current waveform becomes quite variable and at that point cannot give an 
accurate test of your equipment. Having a valid calibration sticker is close to 
useless as the condition can develop quickly. I have personally seen a rented 
simulator with a valid calibration sticker have this problem with its current 
waveform all over the place from one discharge to another. A good test lab will 
verify this is not happening at the beginning of each day. You as a client can 
tell from a distance by just making a small antenna by extending a coax center 
conductor 6 inches pass the shield to make a small antenna. Better would be to 
make a TEM antenna which does not color its output by its resonances. Connect 
the antenna to a scope of at least 4 GSa/sec sampling rate, preferably higher. 
You don't really care what waveform you get, say from 6 feet away, but each 
discharge of a series of ten should look the same.

More to come! Most test labs I have used over the years made at least one 
mistake that affected the test results. I have had disagreements with labs, 
never lost one of them.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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Re: [PSES] Woodgate's reply on residential Immunity field strength

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

My observation is that a cell phone at max power, close to the product, 
generates voltages and currents in the product that are on the order of what a 
100 V/m far field would induce!

I have seen many manifestations of this including making a product permanently 
non-functional. Interestingly enough, the design feature within that product 
that caused the issue was ground fill on a circuit board that was resonant in 
the upper cell phone band. Pretty easy to find with signal injection into the 
structure.

These kind of problems are easily found using a coaxial dipole. Here are a few 
links:

https://emcesd.com/tt2006/tt020106.htm

https://emcesd.com/tt2010/tt080410.htm

As with ESD, using the standards based test setup for troubleshooting these 
kind of problems is very inefficient. Once a problem occurs, I build a custom 
way of injecting signals, like the above, and find the problem very quickly. In 
this case, one just needs a signal source of appropriate power and the coaxial 
dipole.

An interesting bit of my history. These days we think 10 V/m is dangerous. But 
when I was 15, I played for hours at a time with a device I made that generated 
a continuous signal at 300 kHz of 10,000-20,000 V/m and I am still here! I was 
developing 600 Watts of power from a pair of 811A power triodes oscillating at 
300 kHz to feed the resonant Tesla coil structure I built. The effects were 
pretty amazing, lighting up fluorescent tubes 4-6 feet away to full brilliance 
with no wires and even incandescent bulbs would light in the vicinity, held in 
my hand! Pieces of metal nearby got hot from induction heating.

I did lots of crazy technical things when I was 12-18 years of age. By the way, 
those 811A tubes above (the "A" versions had cooling fins on the plates) were 
powered from a 3B28 xenon gas rectifier tube and had 1500 V and at more than 
half an Ampere available on the plate caps. Enough to kill one rather quickly, 
but I knew what I was doing back then and survived to write this.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]
From: Charlie Blackham 
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 0:06
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Woodgate's reply on residential Immunity field strength

The residential level of 3m V/m was in IEC 1000-4-3 predates portable phones, 
WiFi, Bluetooth and all the other mobile and portable transmitters widely in 
use today.

The 20+ V/m field strengths in these standards are what is obtained from a 
cellular phone at maximum power, or WiFi device, at approximately 0.3 m / 1 ft.

Now, on live networks the 99% percentile transmit power of a cell phone is 
around 1% of maximum power, but that's not considered in safety standards such 
as SAR testing

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Brian Gregory 
mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net>>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2023 10:49 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Woodgate's reply on residential Immunity field strength


The reference for 20 V/m to EV chargers comes from UL 2231-2.  This is not a 
medical standard, but Annex A does call out the medical standard 60601-1-2 as a 
reference, as well as CENELEC 50204.  We can't figure out why;  cell phones 
produce less than half that, and our WiFi transmitter is probably 
representative, and is rated well under 1 W.  I could see a higher immunity 
standard as needed for commercial environments, say in a bank of 4-5 chargers.

Following along in 61000-4-3, we agree with John that residential applications 
are clearly best matched to the definition for Class 2 environment, and the 
table in Clause 5 says the limits for Class 2 equipment is 3 V/m.  20 V/m does 
not show up in Clause 5 of 61000-4-3 for any class.

So, I've should to reach out to a UL standards group and find out if this is 
really necessary for residential applications.   Our local lab can't do more 
than 10, and an overseas affiliated lab is similarly limited.  I'd like to know 
were this requirement comes from.   This is more a question for EV Charging 
safety than a mainstream EMC question.

As a backup, I could request a comment to Ken's point is if they define the 
peak of the modulation as 20 V/m.  I don't know where these are defined.

Thanks for all the detailed replies!

Colorado Brian
720-450-4933


-- Original Message --
From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
To: Brian Gregory mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net>>

Re: [PSES] Order of attenuators

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

It turns out the signal generator has an average output of only mW, but a peak 
power of 5000W or so. This is a small battery powered hand-held EFT like pulse 
generator, from Fischer Custom Communications, that I use for circuit 
troubleshooting. It will deliver thousands of Watts of peak power into 50 Ohms! 
The pulse is somewhat shortened from a standard EFT pulse to allow the use of 2 
Watt attenuators. However, to minimize the stress on the attenuators they 
should be positioned as follows from the output of the generator: 3, 6, 20 dB. 
That way the 20 dB attenuator is more likely to survive and can even be a ½ 
Watt rating. If placed first, It will take most of the power and may not 
survive.

EFT and especially ESD have extreme peak to average ratios and for signals like 
this, the lowest attenuation attenuators should be used first.

Separately, I have a few guidelines for ESD or EFT debugging:

  *   Generally, it is not very efficient to debug these problems on the 
official test sites. If this is done, in my experience, the solution will take 
a lot longer, may not be well understood, and likely cost more (because it is 
not the best solution).
  *   I usually do not consult system documentation in the early stages of 
debugging, an inefficient use of time.
  *   I inject voltage via mutual inductance or current through 1-2 pF of 
capacitance, known levels of noise into the circuit (I know how much signal the 
circuit is stressed with even though I may not yet know the circuit details). 
The injection, for mutual inductance, must have a short range, ¼ inch or less.
  *   I find the part of the circuit causing the problem and then consult the 
documentation to finalize my fix. In one case it was a 20 pF cap to circuit 
ground. At that point, I had no idea of the circuit and why the fix worked 
until consulting the documentation. It took me 5 minutes to localize the 
problem to one single node in the circuit before consulting the documentation. 
That is after another consultant could not find the problem after 4 days of 
work using the conventional engineering methods we all know.
  *   ESD/EFT like, but low level and no circuit contact, noise with close in 
injection is a very powerful technique for debugging a circuit that has an 
ESD/EFT problem. I have been fine tuning this procedure for about 40 years now.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]
From: Richard Nute 
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2023 13:51
To: doug emcesd.com 
Subject: RE: [PSES] Order of attenuators



Hi Doug:

Since the source is 10 mW, and the attenuators are 2 W (I assume resistive, 
50-ohm, see attached schematic), then any attenuator should be able to 
dissipate the 10 mW of the source.

However, to minimize power dissipation in each attenuator, they should be 
arranged 3 dB, 6 dB, and 20 dB.

Best regards,
Rich

From: doug emcesd.com mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2023 12:15 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Order of attenuators

Hi All,

Here is a puzzle. I have a signal source of average power less than 10 mW and I 
want to put three attenuators on the output, 20 dB, 6 dB and 3 dB.  All are two 
Watt attenuators. What order should I put them on to minimize the chance of 
burning some of them out? This is a situation I encounter during my circuit 
troubleshooting.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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[PSES] Order of attenuators

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Here is a puzzle. I have a signal source of average power less than 10 mW and I 
want to put three attenuators on the output, 20 dB, 6 dB and 3 dB.  All are two 
Watt attenuators. What order should I put them on to minimize the chance of 
burning some of them out? This is a situation I encounter during my circuit 
troubleshooting.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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[PSES] "Morning with Doug" experiment session

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I was thinking of doing a morning's presentation of just live experiments, no 
slides, just a series of live experiments that most engineers will find 
interesting, and may demonstrate that circuits and measurements do not always 
act like we think they do. Here is a proposed list:

Experiments for "Morning With Doug"
1.  Loop shield e-field test for a magnetic field probe: Shows that shielded 
cables do not work the way many of us think they do.
2.  Extended center conductor: implications of skin effect on circuits and EMC 
issues
3.  IC coupling to a wire: Bad things can happen when an IC couples to a wire 
above it, do not let loose cables to exist in your equipment designs.
4.  Shorted probe ESD: Why standard scope probes are not useful around ESD in 
the environment.
5.  Jingling change ESD: One of my favourite effects
6.  Altering probe response with external resistors for both current and 
voltage probes.
7.  Pulse injection on a uP eval board: how to find vulnerabilities from the 
environment in a board design
8.  Locating ESD and other pulsed events in 3D space with an oscilloscope: 
checking out an environment for problems or finding sources of field problems.

I think this will take a morning, 3-4 hours. Anyone interested? I haven't 
decided on a cost yet. What do you think would be a reasonable cost?

Each session, if there is more than one, would be limited to 6-8 attendees. We 
ARE going to have a lot of engineering fun! I am thinking of sometime next week 
for the first session.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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Re: [PSES] Current Probe for Surge Immunity Calibration Validation

[doug emcesd.com]

I have found Fischer Custom Communication probes to be of the highest quality. 
I have found that with some other probes, significant E-field response is a 
problem, and you need to measure E-field response yourself. I have seen current 
probes with an E-field response as much as the intended H-field response!

Give me a call and I will walk you through a few ways of measuring E-field 
response of a current probe. Too much to type here. Apparently, many 
manufacturers of current probes do not know how to do this.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2023 7:15:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] Current Probe for Surge Immunity Calibration Validation

Greetings Everyone.

To validate a Surge Immunity Generator and CDN, the IEC 61000-4-5 standard 
refers to a "Current Probe" for measuring the Short-Circuit Current.   I wish 
to buy one.

Can anyone recommend a model and supplier/manufacturer of a current probe that 
they like and will do a good job for this application?

Thank you all very much.

The Other Brian


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[PSES] Unknown SI and EMC approaches

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

First a few questions:


  1.  Do you know what US State has an EMC requirement that a company must meet 
to sell certain types of products there? And, why you might want to do this 
test on your equipment to avoid field issues that can be costly.
  2.  ESD testing completely misses a lot of things that happen in the field. 
We test with a small number of discharges of high amplitude. What about a 
system interface that receives tens of thousands of small ESD over time, slowly 
damaging the equipment until failure happens on the 10,000th discharge?
  3.  How do you handle an ESD problem where the system is sensitive only 0.1% 
of the time, but the effect, when it happens, is not good, even catastrophic?
  4.  How can one measure ground bounce in ten minutes in an IC package without 
connecting to the package pins?
  5.  How can one find the on-board source of a glitch that is corrupting a 
signal in a few minutes?
  6.  And more

I am thinking of giving a virtual presentation later next week on lab methods 
to answer the above questions and more. None of the above procedures are widely 
known in the SI and EMC world.

The presentation will be about a half day or a bit longer. There will be a 
small charge. I have not worked out the details, but if you are interested, 
contact me via email or phone call. The more people interested, the smaller the 
charge will be. On my end, I will need about a day to put it together and set 
up some lab experiments to do during the presentation.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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[PSES] Consultant story

[doug emcesd.com]

"A giant ship's engine broke down and no one could repair it, so they hired a 
Mechanical Engineer with over 30 years of experience.

He inspected the engine very carefully, from top to bottom. After seeing 
everything, the engineer unloaded his bag and pulled out a small hammer.

He knocked something gently. Soon, the engine came to life again. The engine 
has been fixed!

A week later the engineer mentioned to the ship owner that the total cost of 
repairing the giant ship was $20,000.

"What?!" said the owner.

"You did almost nothing. Give us a detailed bill."

The answer is simple:

Tap with a hammer: $2

Know where to knock and how much to knock: $19,998

The importance of appreciating one's expertise and experience...because those 
are the results of struggles, experiments and even tears.

If I do a job in 30 minutes it's because I spent 20 years learning how to do 
that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes."
---

In my case I solved my first EMC problem about 62 years ago! My engineering 
education began at age 11 by private tutor and by age 16, I was a federally 
licensed RF engineer at the highest of three levels in the radio/tv broadcast 
industry. University was a piece of cake for me. Been going nearly 24/7 now in 
engineering since age 11! I started running about 50 years ago as well. It's 
been quite a life.

BTW, although I am "elderly," I am definitely not frail. I will likely finish 
2023 having run about 3,250 miles, a significant part of that will be this 
summer in Southern Nevada at 110-115°F/46°C! I passed 900 miles in 2023 several 
days ago. That puts me in the top 1% of athletes worldwide of all ages. Last 
year I ran 2561 miles so I am dialing up the running significantly this year. 
If you use Strava, just look for Doug Smith in Boulder City, NV.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] “Morning with Doug” virtual experiment session

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I am going to hold virtual experiment sessions next Tuesday the 18th. There 
will be two sessions, one at 9 am PDT (US West Coast) and 1 pm PDT.

I will perform multiple live experiments on operating circuits that I have 
developed from my research. Some of them have the opposite result most 
engineers expect but in the process convey useful information and dispel common 
engineering myths. The experiments are not, for the most part, known in the 
engineering world.

If you are interested, contact me privately via email or call me. Although not 
free it is cheap.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] A morning of experiments

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I was thinking of presenting a morning of experiments demonstrating 
troubleshooting techniques I have developed over time via web meeting. The 
presentation would not have any slides but be all demonstrations of techniques. 
Most of the techniques are not well known in the engineering world.

The presentation would be a week from today starting at 9 am Pacific Daylight 
Time.

This would not be free but low cost. If you are interested contact me directly. 
I figure I can practically handle 6-8 people on the web meeting. If you can get 
here, Boulder City, NV near Hoover Dam and Las Vegas you are welcome to attend 
in person.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] Op amp circuit design to avoid noise issues

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Op amps can be sensitive to digital noise on the same or adjacent PCBs in a 
system as well as to emissions from RF sources like cell phones. Here is an 
article on a technique that has been 100% effective since I discovered it over 
40 years ago. I still use it on modern circuits and it still works.

https://emcesd.com/tt2013/tt110113.htm

What you see on my website (almost 300 articles and papers I have written)  is 
a small fraction of the techniques I have available for validating and 
debugging designs and avoiding issues in the first place.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D95108.E7392350]


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[PSES] filtering contact discharges to get a more realistic discharge at high voltages

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

We were recently discussing contact discharges at high voltages, like 20 kV, 
being very far from reality.

There is a way to make a nice repeatable contact discharge corresponding to 
high voltages by filtering the output of the ESD simulator. Here is one example 
intended for another purpose but fits the bill. The simple ferrite filter 
slowed the risetime and clipped off the initial spike, both characteristic of 
high voltage discharges in air, but much more repeatable than a real air 
discharge.

Here is the article: https://emcesd.com/tt2005/tt090105.htm

Here are a few more of my Technical Tidbits on filtering contact discharges:

https://emcesd.com/tt2006/tt090106.htm  low pass filtering

https://emcesd.com/tt2006/tt090106.htm  high pass filtering

By filtering contact discharges, we can make them more realistic at high 
voltages but still keep the repeatability of the contact discharge compared to 
air discharge. At 4 kV contact discharges are much like air discharges for the 
current waveform, so we are OK there.

By the way, here is some data on air discharge repeatability:

https://emcesd.com/tt2011/tt040711.htm current measurements at 8 and 15 kV

https://emcesd.com/tt2012/tt030712.htm current measurements on system cables 
from air discharges

This is just a tiny sample of data that I have. More recent, official data  
(not on my website) I took at Barth Electronics in Boulder City, Nevada, USA. 
They have the most accurate and elaborate equipment I am aware of for measuring 
current and E-field emissions from ESD simulators in the world. They are very 
convenient to me, about a 15 minute run from my office (on foot, of course).

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D95104.A5699760]


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Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Brent and the group. I agree as long as we stay under 8 KV.

For 20 kV discharge, I would use a (easy to build) filter that slows the rise 
to that more like a real discharge. Nice repeatable contact discharge that more 
closely resembles reality.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
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Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
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From: Brent DeWitt 
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 3:54:22 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Subject: Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts

I'll jump in quickly to state my opinion:

Contact discharge does not represent any "natural" mechanism I know of, but I 
prefer it because it seems to have the highest repeatability in revealing a 
device's vulnerability.

-Brent, "If I can't be 'right', I at least want to be consistent about it"

On 3/6/2023 6:40 PM, doug emcesd.com wrote:

Hi John and Chas,



I and others presented the strong evidence in the late 1990s of problems, 
including irreproducible results, and I see the results of these problems all 
the time.

  1.  Many products fail because of E-field emissions from the simulators, 
which is not controlled in the standard unless recently revised. This needs to 
be done. I have seen many products that fail by emissions. The emissions from 
many simulators are far worse (10x or more) than any natural ESD event. There 
is at least one simulator that has an emissions profile similar to a real ESD 
event, the rest are over testing in a way that does not add value as it does 
not correspond to what can actually happen.
  2.  To get reproduceable results between simulators (which is a BIG problem) 
a max di/dt specification needs to be added to the standard as I and others 
proposed in the 1990s. Without this, the standard is fatally flawed and leads 
to random results between simulators. I and others run into this all the time. 
I can tell you which brands will fail a good product that actually should pass, 
this from the large amount of data I have generated at considerable expense to 
myself. This data is presented in some of my classes.
  3.  Just because one does not see field problems in the field (I do see such 
problems quite a bit) does not mean the standard is good. When a test is used 
that does not come remotely close to a real possible event (such asa  20 kV 
contact discharge used in some industries), it increases costs for everyone for 
no purpose.



I have tons of data to support my points, some generated for the IEC in the 
1990s, which should be available and more modern and voluminous data I 
generated in the last year or so at my own personal expense for inclusion in 
seminars. My personal experience also shows that agrees with my data.



I am very familiar with Michael King’s contributions which were very 
significant but limited by the instrumentation available at the time. But even 
in the 1990s, the data clearly showed some changes to IEC 61000-4-2 were 
needed. In looking through my more recent data, there are patterns that show 
some interesting conclusions on ESD testing. I took the data in a way that 
exposed them, which we did not do in the 1990s because we did not know back 
then.



I have helped my clients pass quite a few ESD and EMC tests by taking advantage 
of problems with the standards. Passing with no changes is good. They still 
officially passed by accredited labs and procedures but with no changes or 
money spent against an original fail to get quickly to market.



Doug

[cid:part1.OeU0Kvx0.DbFKJXkb@ix.netcom.com]



From: Chas Grasso <mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 7:02
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts



Good points John.



On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 7:58 AM John Woodgate 
mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> wrote:

 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
j...@woodjohn.uk<mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>





There are two good points about 61-4-2:the test results are repeatable and 
products that pass the tests rarely suffer from ESD failures in the field. But 
there are, even so, unresolved issues and doubts about the relations between 
the tests and actual ESD events. Because the present standard 'works', strong 
evidence would be required to support a proposal for change, and that is not 
forthcoming.

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.woodjohn.uk=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=rpPAb2eJTrWbEN526jRAWfZ3KRUZLG3E9AyCvM8yX5I=ZNZiOeLiHc9pOq1APn37fQTPxLbUEMXhaIsJbjTjCAc=>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I understand. Xunzi 

[PSES] Resend of complete message on ESD thoughts

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have a few thoughts I would like to share with you on ESD that have comes out 
of my private research into the field in recent years.

  1.  A 2kV air discharge can be much more likely to cause equipment 
malfunction than any other discharge of any voltage.
  2.  There is no natural ESD event comparable to a 15-20+ kV contact discharge 
so why test for it? That is designing for something that is extremely unlikely 
at best.
  3.  The IEC61000-4-2 does not very well model real ESD events at all. One 
example, my hand metal discharge at 4 kV results a current spike at the start 
of the discharge that is more than twice as high as the standard specifies! 
This is very repeatable.

The above is just a sample of the research I have generated over the years. 
Seems like IEC 61000-4-2 needs an urgent overhaul as I believe engineers get a 
false sense of security that passing the test means reliable field performance, 
not even close!




Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] Interesting thoughts on ESD and systems

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have a few thoughts I would like to share with you on ESD that have cons 
outbid my research into the field in recent years.

  1.  A 2kV air discharge can be much more likely to cause equipment 
malfunction than any other discharge of any voltage.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
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Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
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[PSES] Breakdown of barriers in power supplies

[doug emcesd.com]

Back in 2015, in my paper at the Institute of Physics in Southampton, England, 
I showed how 800 Volt ESD or EFT events can break over a 1500 VRMS (~2100 V 
peak) barrier in a power supply involving ringing in the EMC power line filter. 
This would be a low energy discharge, however it may degrade the barrier over 
time as 800 Volt EFT events on the power line are very common. Even a single 
small spark can trigger a large one and cause a safety issue, a single event!

I think there is a safety problem here that is a disaster waiting to happen.

Thoughts!

Doug Smith
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Re: [PSES] [SI-LIST] Re: Interesting material

[doug emcesd.com]

What you mentioned about ESD is true. Much better to design for it than to try 
and fix the design later. Unfortunately, the later approach is what is normally 
done. ESD debugging should not be done in an ESD test area as the energy goes 
everywhere and one has no control. My preferred method of debugging is to 
inject ESD like noise locally in a system to determine the sensitive part of 
the circuit. I have designed several ways of doing this. No guesswork just 
results!

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
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From: Lyndell Lee Asbenson 
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 8:24:54 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; Morales, Aldo W ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; si-l...@freelists.org 

Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Interesting material

Thanks Doug, the stories I have of ESD and the problems it caused . What Intel 
learned is that you have to design for ESD up front,  not reactivate,  after 
the design. The people doing Gallian Arsnide never got this memo. I had an IMS 
tester that had an MTBF of 128hr (crapy) all because the pin electronics were 
always under repair.  Lyndell

Get Outlook for 
Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_AAb9ysg=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=gp9yh_gKNspS1j99QLN1Y_x5vHuVpYACneLagjjCssE=ft6BhOhaJImgfaZzNLr4Fj4-0hsENPAafJrq6mA5agw=>

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Re: [PSES] Interesting material

[doug emcesd.com]

Thanks, Aldo.

Separately, effects on inanimate objects like ESD materials and transmission 
lines seem generally sensitive to relative humidity whereas humans, and likely 
other mammals, are sensitive to absolute humidity measured as dew point 
temperature. As temperature is not important up to 120?F, or more, if the dew 
point temperature is below freezing.

Once I realized this some time ago and applied it to myself, I have no problem 
running for an hour or two at 115?F in the Nevada desert passing signs that say 
"Danger! Do not enter here in the summer!" Most young athletes are not able to 
do this, yet I will be 76 in a few weeks.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
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Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Morales, Aldo W 
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 11:04:46 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; 
si-l...@freelists.org ; doug emcesd.com 
Subject: Re: Interesting material

Hello Colleagues:

Please check this paper on humidity and temperature that we published long time 
ago

Modeling Relative Humidity and Temperature Effects on Scattering Parameters in 
Transmission Lines

  *   S. Agili, A. Morales, +1 author M. Resso
  *Published 27 September 2012
  *
  *   IEEE Transactions on Components, Packaging and Manufacturing Technology



Stay safe and healthy,

Aldo

_


Aldo W. Morales, Ph.D. IEEE Senior Member
https://psu.zoom.us/my/aldo.morales<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__psu.zoom.us_my_aldo.morales=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=aynX0Gw2OtbjQBb1JC70a3wcAfL52N40OUvueoQXwSc=guUCHDJA3FXUwenYW8EVdwoDPG257d3ge6IN4O7MJnc=>
IEEE Consumer Electronics Society 15-16 Distinguished Lecturer
Co-Director, Center of Excellence in Signal Integrity
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Professor of Electrical Engineering
Penn State Harrisburg
777 West Harrisburg Pike
Middletown, PA 17057
U.S.A.
Phone: (717)-948-6379
Fax: (717)-948-6352


From: si-list-bou...@freelists.org  on behalf of 
doug emcesd.com 
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 1:59 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; 
si-l...@freelists.org 
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Interesting material

Here is a better video where I limit the applied voltage to a reasonable 
operating voltage to just see the humidity effect.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dropbox.com%2Fs%2Ft1udll2dqidl8o7%2FVID_20230217_205517.mp4%3Fdl%25C3%25BF=05%7C01%7Cawm2%40psu.edu%7C8ea380ac0b684730975a08db117deaa4%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C638123004733550809%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=kntcFEHEQAOuMw298OJ6EjgChUUxWIdHjOlUfAdwkvc%3D=0<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.dropbox.com-252Fs-252Ft1udll2dqidl8o7-252FVID-5F20230217-5F205517.mp4-253Fdl-2525C3-2525BF-26data-3D05-257C01-257Cawm2-2540psu.edu-257C8ea380ac0b684730975a08db117deaa4-257C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e-257C0-257C0-257C638123004733550809-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C3000-257C-257C-257C-26sdata-3DkntcFEHEQAOuMw298OJ6EjgChUUxWIdHjOlUfAdwkvc-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=aynX0Gw2OtbjQBb1JC70a3wcAfL52N40OUvueoQXwSc=X0wa5AacOm9bdM40t5AEi0adIj7feEplqh6dvqyqdiU=>
Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: 
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Re: [PSES] Interesting material

[doug emcesd.com]

Here is a better video where I limit the applied voltage to a reasonable 
operating voltage to just see the humidity effect.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1udll2dqidl8o7/VID_20230217_205517.mp4?dl=0

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: doug emcesd.com
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 10:54:10 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG ; 
si-l...@freelists.org 
Subject: Interesting material

Hi All,

I was testing a new material for a different purpose and accidentally found 
that it was very sensitive to humidity/moisture. Might make a good humidity 
alarm for an industrial process or other application. What do you think? Here 
is a short video:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bhp7mn2l4e24n0/VID_20230209_155921.mp4?dl=0

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] Interesting material

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I was testing a new material for a different purpose and accidentally found 
that it was very sensitive to humidity/moisture. Might make a good humidity 
alarm for an industrial process or other application. What do you think? Here 
is a short video:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bhp7mn2l4e24n0/VID_20230209_155921.mp4?dl=0

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

-

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[PSES] IC package parasitics

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Here is a paper I wrote some time ago covering a few techniques I use to see 
the effect of package parasitics on the operation on an IC in real-time. I have 
solved problems this way that clients struggled with for months and it took me 
only minutes to understand what was happening and come up with a fix.

https://emcesd.com/pdf/imaps07.pdf

Doug Smith
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Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
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[PSES] Noise troubleshooting technique

[doug emcesd.com]

Occasionally when troubleshooting a board, I suspect there is an issue with 
ground potentials between an ICs pins causing either signal corruption or even 
latch up of the device. For simpler boards where this is possible, here is a 
link, below,  to one technique that I use. Before a layout can be fixed, this 
could also be used as a temporary rework, especially if all the ground pin 
connections are not required.

https://emcesd.com/tt2011/tt050411.htm

Doug Smith
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IPhone: 408-858-4528
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[PSES] LED RF sensitivity test

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I recently had looked at a case where a piece of equipment being tested for 
conducted RF immunity has some of its LEDs lit by the RF when the equipment was 
unpowered, which caused a test failure as the LEDs indicated a safety 
condition. The equipment had no power switch, when its function was needed, 
power was applied from another device.  It means there is also a possibility of 
LEDs lighting in a powered-up device, not because the electronics are affected, 
but by the LEDs themselves lighting. Should we be testing RF immunity on 
unpowered devices?

This perked my interest and I have designed a small (2x3 inch board) for 
testing frequency response and sensitivity of LEDs to RF signals to 500 MHz. 
Just from the prototype, I see that LEDs vary quite a bit in frequency, some 
going to 500 MHz and beyond. I have also noted some conditions that affect the 
RF response, so I have built into my design a feature that makes the LED 
response independent of the characteristics of the amplifier furnishing the RF 
signal. The board schematic looks very simple, just five "components," but to 
implement the schematic takes about 15 real components to work properly..

This design and the problem LEDs can cause will be included in my class the 
third week of February (class is full of examples of strange problems in 
equipment and their solution). I will also host a web meeting next week, 
Thursday 9 am Pacific time, for those interested in this board design. Contact 
me privately if you are interested. The session is not free as I have invested 
a fair amount of time in the board design and construction which I will share 
during the meeting. Not sure yet what the fee might be, interested in input on 
this, but it will not be expensive.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D93198.C7631610]


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[PSES] LED RF immunity

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I recently worked on a case where a conducted immunity RF test caused an 
unpowered circuit's LEDs to light up causing a failure. It turns out that LEDs 
can work well enough at much higher frequencies than one would expect. In 
addition to that, in the process of lighting up, a lot of harmonics are 
generated up to hundreds of MHz, at least.  In fact, any non-linear element 
connected to a system cable will generate harmonics of an incoming RF signal, 
possibly causing radio interference. I have even seen corroded connections of 
wires do this and cause problems.

In the case of the LEDs, several tens of mA of RF current was available from 
the test and that interacted with resonances on the board.

So, I am designing a board to evaluate LED RF sensitivity in terms of frequency 
response and amplitude of current. Should have it built soon. Seems like there 
is a need for such a device to allow designers to select the best part from 
suppliers. The board will include a current monitor with frequency response 
from DC to at least 500 MHz and will also gauge the possibility of EMI 
generated by the LED under test.

The board, its design, and the background of the issue will be added to my 
class in the third week of February. Eventually I will publish this later on, 
possibly at DesignCon 2024 or another venue in 2024.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D92BEE.6120F160]


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[PSES] data presentation on ESD simulators

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have been hinting at my efforts to characterize ESD simulators and have 
generated a treasure trove of data on most modern ESD simulators for waveform 
and E-field emissions to 5 GHz. This data can save an engineer, company, or 
test lab a lot of effort during ESD testing.

The data allows one to pick an ESD simulator based on the results you want or 
your criteria or to resolve differences between your internal testing and an 
external test lab. There is a huge difference between simulators and the data 
shows that even a subtle difference in the way the test person applies the ESD 
can make a large difference in the test outcome, none of which is addressed in 
IED61000-4-2.

I think there may be a lot of "fixing" of ESD issues in equipment that is not 
necessary. All this is due to the loose/incomplete way IEC 61000-4-2 specifies 
the simulator calibration.

If you are interested in the presentation, discussion, and a copy of the data, 
I am holding a web session next Wednesday, December 15th at 9 am Pacific 
Daylight Time, for several hours. Contact me for details. This is not a free 
presentation as I have expended significant personal resources to generate the 
data.

I don't consider this presentation as training but a presentation of data and a 
mutual discussion of it to bring out the conclusions contained in the data that 
are not necessarily obvious. I think individual engineers responsible for a 
product as well as test labs would especially be interested. The data is not 
commercially available to my knowledge.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D908BE.5017DD50]


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[PSES] static fields

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Did you know that just a static E-field can cause improper operation of some 
equipment like smoke detectors? No discharge necessary. Just "ES" without "D"!

One of my E-field experiments set off a smoke detector in the next room, 
reliably, from 15+ feet away! You don't want to be near me in the building 
where my lab is located.

I spend a lot of time performing research in my lab  coming up with new ways to 
characterize equipment problems and solve them. Most of my knowledge (past 
college 50+ years ago) comes from my research. Generally, I find principles 
taught in books come with limitations that are not necessarily pointed out in 
the books but show up very clearly in my lab experiments. I have explored in 
the lab most of the principles I was ever taught. I have found that doing it in 
the lab is better than just reading about it in a book or hearing it in a class.

I also do health experiments that have resulted in me at 75 living like a 35 
year old. Those experiment have been very successful too! Conquered flus, 
colds, and sore throats 50 years ago, none since then, and no sunburn with no 
sun block needed for a whole day in the sun now.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D907E6.EE2C8D70]


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[PSES] incorrect test failures

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Test failures (performance, compliance, or any other) just before product 
introduction are very expensive. It is not unusual to cost a company US$100,000 
or more revenue per day of product delay. Given that...

There is an issue with IEC61000-4-2 based ESD testing, and it is costing 
companies millions of $/year in incorrect failures on equipment that in fact 
was compliant!!! I have observed this for decades now but not much has been 
done about it. What we really need is a maximum di/dt specification anywhere on 
the waveform (I proposed this when I was on WG9 of TC77b almost 30 years ago) 
and an E-field emissions amplitude and de/dt specifications for ESD simulators. 
They are all over the map in their ability to fail equipment that is actually 
compliant!

Given that, one's only recourse is to try and use a simulator that meets the 
"intent" not just the letter of the requirements. Along those lines, you might 
be interested in my latest Technical Tidbit article for November about data I 
have taken on most of the current simulators on the market using special 
measurement techniques (both equipment and technique of measurement). In the 
article I give an example of di/dt issues. Here is the link:
https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D90586.D740B940]


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[PSES] Latest Technical Tidbit

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I believe I sent this link at the beginning of the long holiday weekend here in 
the US. If you are like me, by Monday morning, the email was a few hundred 
emails down in the list and many missed it.

The article talks about the poor repeatability of ESD testing results for IEC 
61000-4-2 testing.

Here is the link:
https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm

Separately, for the first time in my 50 years of running (starting in my late 
twenties) I will exceed 2500 miles of running in one year in December. Not 
technical but it shows one does not have to decline in one's seventies! This is 
about 5x what I used to run per year up to 3 years ago

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] New Technical Tidbit article

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have started adding Technical Tidbit articles on my website again. This one 
is on the significantly different testing outcomes that result from the 
undocumented (not described in IEC 61000-4-2) differences in ESD simulators 
because of noise on the current waveforms and E-field emissions from the 
simulators.

Here is the link:
https://emcesd.com/tt2022/tt111822.htm

You may also enjoy the other 300 articles and papers I have posted there at:

https://emcesd.com

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

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[PSES] Surprising data on most commercial ESD smulators

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have measured data on most ESD simulators on the market, characterized for 
waveform purity and E-field emissions at a considerable investment in personal 
time and resources. The data is quite surprising and is similar to, but with 
more data than the work I did in the 1990s with standards bodies such as ANSI, 
IEC TC77b WG9 (IEC61000-4-2). The data reveals not only surprising results on 
the simulators but insight into the nature of ESD itself and why testing 
results can be difficult to reproduce. ( I have been working on ESD for about 
40 years now both in standards bodies and solving problems.) If one wanted, the 
data shows how to pick a simulator more likely to pass or fail a product, 
whichever you want or how to resolve a disagreement between a commercial lab 
and a company's internal lab results.

I plan to organize the data into a presentation which will include over 150 
scope plots and other data on contact and air discharge and ESD characteristics.

If you think you might be interested in this data/presentation, get in touch 
with me separately and we can work out logistics.

Doug

[cid:image001.jpg@01D8D0E4.387EBAE0]


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[PSES] EMP on the cheap

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Everyone,

Lately I have been working on a desktop "EMP" generator on the cheap for 
testing circuits and equipment without spending a lot of money. One of the 
challenges is characterizing and calibrating it without having a suitable 
current probe. I designed a simple, self calibrating current divider that is 
easy to build and gives a reduction of 4X per section (any factor is possible 
using multiple sections and changing the design of the section). The design 
matches resistive and reactive contributions to the attenuation ratio 
(extremely simple to do) to give it a nice constant attenuation ratio from DC 
to higher frequencies. I will cover the design of the attenuator in an upcoming 
Technical Tidbit on my website www.dsmith.org . My 
current probe is a F-65 from Fischer Custom Communications. I like that probe 
as it has excellent E-field rejection. I have seen some others that do not have 
good E-field rejection and would not work in this application as there are high 
E-fields involved.

Separately, I am going to cover the design of the overall device and current 
divider as well as demonstrate it in a segment I am calling "The Morning After" 
to be given on the Friday morning after my regular three-day measurement and 
design troubleshooting seminar (next two are in October).

Right now, my generator is capable of 5,000+ Amperes (3 MHz damped sinewave but 
I can make other waveforms) with a 45,000 Volt open circuit output. That is 
like ESD di/dt but with orders of magnitude more energy. So far I have not 
spent any money yet!

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D8BD44.4B64C270]


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Re: [PSES] EMC regs in by US state!

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Manny and the group,

The test I am thinking of has a lot more average power. In a day or two I will 
post the state and some parameters of the test. The test I was talking about in 
my email was just something I was working on. This is a required standard state 
specified test.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2022 17:52
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org 

Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC regs in by US state!

Doug,

I haven't attended any of your presentations or seminars, or looked at your 
website recently.  But I did remember one of your postings back in Aug 2021.  
Here's what you said, plus my comment (plus many others commented as well).

8/19/21  DOUG
I am currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. 
Nothing like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am 
also working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. 
If you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized.

8/19/21  MY COMMENT
Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A  x  15,000 V  =  15,000,000 W.
Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power!
Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range.
And hope you're in the desert.

Don't know what state you're referring to, but my guess is that this is the 
device you demonstrated.

Manny Barron



On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 3:24 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=OEVv69ChndSTsxde30O4SSD_4Hs_yrtpHR5sNHpMLo8=TdAHhvuLXvm0fCvtvMIYFbwriaY6gGNR31rYx-75TLw=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:
Hi All,

Did you know there is one US state that has immunity regulations applicable to 
ESD (it is not an ESD test itself)? It is a state very concerned with extreme 
equipment reliability and your equipment has to pass this test if you want to 
sell to customers in a specific industry in that state. Which one? It is the 
most intense immunity test I have seen. I was demonstrating the test during a 
presentation to 70 engineers in Fullerton, CA last week. I was one of several 
speakers. All except me were recorded. Shortly into my demonstrations, I 
performed the test using a chair as a target for demo purposes. From 15-20 feet 
away, the demonstration took out the camera and my presentation was not 
recorded from that point! If you want to see how good a design is, this is a 
great test.

If you have attended one of my presentations/seminars, please do not post. I 
want to see how well known the state with an EMC rules making organization is. 
This is typical of the many kinds of unusual material I teach.

Doug
[cid:180b09526b34ce8e91]

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[PSES] EMC regs in by US state!

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Did you know there is one US state that has immunity regulations applicable to 
ESD (it is not an ESD test itself)? It is a state very concerned with extreme 
equipment reliability and your equipment has to pass this test if you want to 
sell to customers in a specific industry in that state. Which one? It is the 
most intense immunity test I have seen. I was demonstrating the test during a 
presentation to 70 engineers in Fullerton, CA last week. I was one of several 
speakers. All except me were recorded. Shortly into my demonstrations, I 
performed the test using a chair as a target for demo purposes. From 15-20 feet 
away, the demonstration took out the camera and my presentation was not 
recorded from that point! If you want to see how good a design is, this is a 
great test.

If you have attended one of my presentations/seminars, please do not post. I 
want to see how well known the state with an EMC rules making organization is. 
This is typical of the many kinds of unusual material I teach.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D86481.66684D60]


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formats), large files, etc.

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Mike Cantwell 

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Re: [PSES] Minimizing EM radiation from a 5G multi device test lab

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Chas and the group,

Why not just turn down the RF power on your router a bit? Doing this also 
improves security. You can also change channel assignments as well but that may 
require coordination with the others in the building. But lowering the power 
level does not. Just set it to be adequate in your space.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D8183B.D5BC3C90]

From: Charles Grasso 
Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2022 11:45
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Minimizing EM radiation from a 5G multi device test lab

Greetings from snowy Colorado!

We have multiple WIFI devices in a lab and we need to suppress the RF signals 
(NOT EMI) to reduce the interference from affecting other WIFI areas of the 
building.

Does anyone know of a cheap and effective way of doing this?


TIA

Chas




--
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
 (c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com
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Re: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Curt and the group,

I believe that by then or a little later the number may be 90%. If that happens 
and does not trigger restrictions, it would be a good thing as Omicron seems to 
be for most people a head cold.

I guess there is no way to know for sure so far in the future. That is why I 
think I will delay registering until the summer. Hopefully by then we will know 
more. The problem is if everyone does that it will drive the Symposium 
organizers nuts trying to plan everything and having everyone register two 
weeks before.

One complicating issue is many of the people in EMC are getting on in years 
which makes pandemic planning more uncertain for them. I may be the exception 
to the rule being 74 and I can still outrun most 30 year olds, especially at 
115 degrees in the Southern Nevada desert!

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D81447.7C391960]

From: Curt McNamara 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 9:35
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Cc: doug emcesd.com ; doug...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question

I see chatter about Covid on the list, and this article has a lot of good info:

"By the end of February, 36%-46% of the US population will have been infected 
with Omicron"
https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/what-now-how-pandemics-end<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com_p_what-2Dnow-2Dhow-2Dpandemics-2Dend=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=aUJ24uYNPIUvBiuB5QODKXDrkRVwg_hz8yjZVbAZ7QA=>

Curt

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:30 AM Douglas E Powell 
mailto:doug...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Doug,

I've been seeing reports from some nations that the case load is beginning to 
trend down. Whether this is a result of everyone being exposed and the general 
population gaining some natural immunity is unknown. However, a small number of 
professionals are beginning to talk about the pandemic transitioning to an 
endemic in certain locations. Your guess is as good as mine as to when that may 
happen in this country.

Where I live, restrictions are still in place, and I do not see any light in 
the tunnel yet.

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com>
LinkedIn<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_coloradocomplianceguy_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=5Q98PH0AvsMm8dcVqeB5VRrdnmXngETUjtZ_62z7Wlg=>


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:05 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=hE8IFAi4fwTwMi2sr7EUT2QsSOsIXOxJ6LZG8bNMdn4=dila8ltA-yGMIit1L5dmj7ro1r1ZnGuvCNkG16FHAaw=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I just saw an announcement from the Symposium in August in Spokane, WI and had 
a question.

What is the current Covid climate like there from the point of review of 
restrictions and as a local, do you think it will change by the end of summer? 
The kind of typical restrictions I see around the country would make the event 
not worth attending for me, certainly taking away from the pleasure of going to 
the Symposium, potentially increasing the cost of going there significantly.

I am hoping that like England, Ireland, and Denmark have done, all the 
restrictions will go away soon here.

Here in Boulder City, NV my personal life has been very little effected during 
the pandemic. I hope Spokane is the same.

Doug
[https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2=b7f18dfbad=0.1=17ea1bf6d9ef0e58=fimg=ip=17ea1bf6d9ef0e58=w1600-h1000=ANGjdJ8yOf_K5nkt10H0N_FBPnK65ZCQlB6NaN8Ka_OK7GSuieCZVKK9i4FqEn2_iny6eupTfpQffIp_lY5Vp9NyR1poW3xywbw41XiMj0qkrGnwq7KkZ]

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Re: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question

[doug emcesd.com]

Thanks, Dan and others for your thoughts. I think I will probably wait to 
register until a week or two before the Symposium.

I have two concerns. One is just the fact that just having restrictions takes a 
lot of the fun out of coming. Social distancing and masking would definitely 
make the Symposium experience less appealing.

The other is getting stuck there and not being able to come home because of a 
false positive test as the tests are not that reliable. That would be a 
disaster.

I don’t worry about coming down with Covid myself while there as the chances of 
that happening for me is approximately zero given I have not had a sore throat, 
cold, or flu in 50 years now since I figured out, for me, how to eliminate 
viral diseases. I never get sick anymore even when around sick people.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Dan Roman 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 5:41:26 AM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Subject: RE: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question


Hi Doug,



Based on the events of the past two years I think the only thing that you can 
predict for the symposium is that conditions in a pandemic are unpredictable.  
We have no hope of getting rid of variants until the whole world is vaccinated 
and boosted (probably multiple times at the current rate of vaccination).  So 
who can say if a peak of upsilon or omega will coincide with the symposium?  
Depends also on the policies of the symposium organizers.  CES proceeded with 
their live in-person show this month with vaccine mandates and testing.  
Probably won’t know for another week if it resulted in a COVID bloom.  But if 
it proves to have been successfully and safely conducted, it could be a model 
for future conference organizers.



Dan





From: doug emcesd.com [mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 5:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question



Hi Everyone,



I just saw an announcement from the Symposium in August in Spokane, WI and had 
a question.



What is the current Covid climate like there from the point of review of 
restrictions and as a local, do you think it will change by the end of summer? 
The kind of typical restrictions I see around the country would make the event 
not worth attending for me, certainly taking away from the pleasure of going to 
the Symposium, potentially increasing the cost of going there significantly.



I am hoping that like England, Ireland, and Denmark have done, all the 
restrictions will go away soon here.



Here in Boulder City, NV my personal life has been very little effected during 
the pandemic. I hope Spokane is the same.



Doug

[cid:image001.jpg@01D81421.EE34E5B0]



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J

[PSES] EMC/SIPI symposium question

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Everyone,

I just saw an announcement from the Symposium in August in Spokane, WI and had 
a question.

What is the current Covid climate like there from the point of review of 
restrictions and as a local, do you think it will change by the end of summer? 
The kind of typical restrictions I see around the country would make the event 
not worth attending for me, certainly taking away from the pleasure of going to 
the Symposium, potentially increasing the cost of going there significantly.

I am hoping that like England, Ireland, and Denmark have done, all the 
restrictions will go away soon here.

Here in Boulder City, NV my personal life has been very little effected during 
the pandemic. I hope Spokane is the same.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D81385.FDEC0070]


-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

[doug emcesd.com]

There is a device between us and the electrical system that does the power 
cycling. We have no control over that device, part of the vehicle.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:55:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the common 
impedance between battery and fuse block.

There should be no power cycling “behind” the LISN, because in the vehicle 
there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition 
switch itself.

Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the 
switched load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Douglas Smith 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>>
Reply-To: Douglas Smith 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 +
To: 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__EMC-2DPSTC-40LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=RMadKU3rlYA8dxMrL249JcSU5tJZbNiPKINvJSO5bwo=>>
Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

Hi All,

I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the 
impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem 
that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the 
equipment itself.

In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does that 
is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes 
through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we 
replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, 
to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the 
frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R 
is ringing at each power transition.

Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power 
is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network.

Doug
[cid:3721931705_1385162]

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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>
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Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

[doug emcesd.com]

Not a car. The power to our EUT is cycled by a a device. To put it on the other 
side of the LISN  would not mean much as we have no control of that device. And 
even if we did that, the continuous interruption of the DC current would still 
send the LISN into oscillation at each current edge.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:55:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the common 
impedance between battery and fuse block.

There should be no power cycling “behind” the LISN, because in the vehicle 
there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition 
switch itself.

Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the 
switched load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Douglas Smith 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>>
Reply-To: Douglas Smith 
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 +
To: 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__EMC-2DPSTC-40LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=RMadKU3rlYA8dxMrL249JcSU5tJZbNiPKINvJSO5bwo=>>
Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

Hi All,

I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the 
impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem 
that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the 
equipment itself.

In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does that 
is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes 
through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we 
replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, 
to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the 
frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R 
is ringing at each power transition.

Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power 
is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network.

Doug
[cid:3721931705_1385162]

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
 (including how to unsubscribe) 

[PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the 
impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem 
that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the 
equipment itself.

In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does that 
is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes 
through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we 
replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, 
to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the 
frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R 
is ringing at each power transition.

Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power 
is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D7ED18.2C067E20]


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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[PSES] new videos and my Odysee channel for them

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Here is the link to my latest newsletter which has links to several videos on 
my new Odysee channel. I plan to copy over all my YouTube videos plus add more 
content. I will not be adding any more to my YouTube channel.

Newsletter: https://conta.cc/3DET0Re

Odysee channel: (https://odysee.com/@Dougsengineering)

This weekend I will be designing and building a 10:1 current divider to measure 
the current of my little EMP setup in the lab. I will post a video of that next 
week. This would be handy if you have a current probe and want to measure 
higher currents that your probe can handle. Since I usually am doing 
troubleshooting measurements, such a current divider is ideal. If I were making 
measurements to a standard with legal implications, probably best to obtain a 
calibrated current probe with the desired characteristics.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D7A0D0.09B38280]


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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] my latest video

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have two Odysee channels, @Dougsenginnering and @Dougshealthandrunning

I have just posted a video to @Dougsengineering working on developing my V1.0 
EMP generator. Work like this often ends up generating content for my classes.

Here is the link:

https://odysee.com/@Dougsengineering:0/EMPV1.0:1

I will be posting more soon. I am adding all new content to Odysee and will be 
copying over my YouTube videos as well. I will not be posting new content to 
YouTube.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D79E7B.6C2FFFD0]


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

[doug emcesd.com]

I have accidentally reset my wrist watch with severe EMI!

I figure my coherent energy Tesla coil  (single frequency from a vacuum tube 
(two 811A short wave high power transmitting tubes generating 600 Watts of 
power) oscillator exposed me to about 10,000-20,000 Volts per meter E fields at 
300 kHz for hours at a time while I played with it. It was my 9th grade science 
fair project. Really strange things happened within several feet of that thing. 
I was fascinated by the effects. That year my science teacher excused me from 
class and gave me an automatic “A” grade for the class. I think he did not want 
a kid in class that knew more than he did….

Maybe that explains why at 74 years old I can run many miles at 115 degrees in 
the desert with no problem! But at least I don’t get big and green when upset.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 8:39:40 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org 

Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

That's the best reason!

Although you may not be looking for it, maybe you'll stumble upon some new 
electromagnetic phenomena.  Now that would be really cool !

About 30 years ago when I worked on Nuclear Hardening & Survivability (NH) 
for NAVSEA they had a testing facility that used very large capacitors to 
generate the high energy gamma dose that was focused on the components under 
test.  The gamma dose is the first threat environment output that departs from 
a nuclear explosion, it propagates outward at the speed of light and can 
immediately damage the P-N junctions of microcircuits.  This is not the EMP 
that eventually occurs later in time, but instead is a high energy gamma pulse, 
it's ionizing radiation.  When the NAVSEA test facility released the energy 
from the capacitors the whole building shook and you just knew something 
violent was occurring during that very short burst.

I wonder if you might generate a gamma dose, however big or small it may be.

Just interesting stuff.

Manny Barron
EMC Engineer




On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 3:04 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kzdo2O4rtMnmIFqfnf9z-LMkl2riv3SHnJoSoaDIaog=6kE7emSoKRkaGwNsJlINNgkfVtC1NoCz2itC6Aa2ONs=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:
Because I love to play around with HV!! I have been fascinated with it for 
about 60 years now.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]


From: Manny Barron mailto:mbar...@ieee.org>>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 2:20 PM
To: doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kzdo2O4rtMnmIFqfnf9z-LMkl2riv3SHnJoSoaDIaog=6kE7emSoKRkaGwNsJlINNgkfVtC1NoCz2itC6Aa2ONs=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org>>
Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

Wow Doug,

Very interesting science project.
I'm curious, why are you doing this?
Just because . . . or is there a specific purpose?

I don't like HV, it scares me, especially when there are thick wires that can 
carry lots of current, pulsed or not.  Well, except ESD, that's a coffee 
substitute in the morning to get your body moving.

About 10 years ago we had to do MIL-STD-461 EMI tests on a HV military project 
inside a 5m semi-anechoic chamber.  Because we had never tested a HV EUT 
before, a 20 page safety document became part of the test plan.  Requirements:  
1) only 2 test persons allowed in the chamber at any time and 1 must be AED 
certified, 2) the AED must be accessible within 1 minute, 3) a Sheppard's hook 
must be available immediately if needed, 4) special rubber gloves required 
inside the chamber, 5) special insulated shoes required for test personnel, 6) 
clear indicators that EUT is energized or not, 7) emergency Power Off switch 
must be easily accessible, plus numerous other miscellaneous HV safety 
requirements that I can't remember right now.  Needless to say we were very 
cautious with everything we did during the test.

No I don't like HV, it scares me.
Good luck on your HV project.
And be careful !

Manny Barron
EMC Engineer


On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:38 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=JjCcui3j_EHfd5vCQSYXejlN2P08H13TN_EUitv-Qls=MiSWCeIK7VbWsCvfQD05SjUB5V1VTAW8VLpsL9V7ie8=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:

Hi Bill,



The other day I got the power sup

Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

[doug emcesd.com]

Because I love to play around with HV!! I have been fascinated with it for 
about 60 years now.

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]


From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 2:20 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org 

Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

Wow Doug,

Very interesting science project.
I'm curious, why are you doing this?
Just because . . . or is there a specific purpose?

I don't like HV, it scares me, especially when there are thick wires that can 
carry lots of current, pulsed or not.  Well, except ESD, that's a coffee 
substitute in the morning to get your body moving.

About 10 years ago we had to do MIL-STD-461 EMI tests on a HV military project 
inside a 5m semi-anechoic chamber.  Because we had never tested a HV EUT 
before, a 20 page safety document became part of the test plan.  Requirements:  
1) only 2 test persons allowed in the chamber at any time and 1 must be AED 
certified, 2) the AED must be accessible within 1 minute, 3) a Sheppard's hook 
must be available immediately if needed, 4) special rubber gloves required 
inside the chamber, 5) special insulated shoes required for test personnel, 6) 
clear indicators that EUT is energized or not, 7) emergency Power Off switch 
must be easily accessible, plus numerous other miscellaneous HV safety 
requirements that I can't remember right now.  Needless to say we were very 
cautious with everything we did during the test.

No I don't like HV, it scares me.
Good luck on your HV project.
And be careful !

Manny Barron
EMC Engineer


On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:38 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=JjCcui3j_EHfd5vCQSYXejlN2P08H13TN_EUitv-Qls=MiSWCeIK7VbWsCvfQD05SjUB5V1VTAW8VLpsL9V7ie8=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:

Hi Bill,



The other day I got the power supply, my interface circuitry, the capacitor, 
and the right length gap all to start oscillating as a relaxation oscillator at 
about 10 Hz (30 lb capacitor is rated for 360 pulses per second). It sounds 
like a machine gun! My wife says I should take it easy with this lest the SWAT 
team shows up.



The pulse width is a few hundred nanoseconds, estimated. Trying for a more 
accurate measurement. Today a roll of #8 wire should show up from Amazon for me 
to make a 10:1 current divider.



The capacitor stands almost three feet high with a large insulator, 13,500 pf @ 
50 kV. It weighs a lot, at least 30 lb and since I don’t want to pick it up by 
the insulator, I have to drag it across the floor as there is nothing to grab 
onto to lift it. I got a few of them as surplus, being thrown out, from UNLV. 
Their EE department must be fun!



I have been playing around with high voltage stuff since about 15-16 years old. 
My experiments back then generated so much EMI that the feds showed up at my 
house while I was in school. I would like to have been a fly on wall while they 
were talking with my mother. This was back in 1962.



Currently working on constructing a Marx generator. Parts are in from Amazon 
(resistors and capacitors). If you don’t see anymore posts, you will know what 
happened.



I still feel like I am 16! Same wonderment at physics. My lifetime hero is 
Nicola Tesla I am also like a 16 year old in that at 74, I am running a few 
thousands of miles per year. Even at 110+ degrees in the summer!



Doug

[cid:17b89687e9f4ce8e91]



From: Bill Owsley mailto:wdows...@yahoo.com>>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:13
To: doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=JjCcui3j_EHfd5vCQSYXejlN2P08H13TN_EUitv-Qls=MiSWCeIK7VbWsCvfQD05SjUB5V1VTAW8VLpsL9V7ie8=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel



Typical lightning is about 300 million volts and 30 thousand amps.

And if you are within several 10's of feet of a strike, it makes an impression.

So a scaled down version is useful, like Doug's emp generator.

Useful for imaginative coupling into various devices under test.



Sent from Yahoo Mail on 
Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=sp2-iZpIiLm92XEmcPXBIBJpjhPwJBr6W8MUBrfUEC0=iulfSxZNFywm7IvVze4oy1MTcH3xq_vR9a2ZQN0Zjys=>



On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:55 PM, doug 
emcesd.com<ht

Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Bill,

The other day I got the power supply, my interface circuitry, the capacitor, 
and the right length gap all to start oscillating as a relaxation oscillator at 
about 10 Hz (30 lb capacitor is rated for 360 pulses per second). It sounds 
like a machine gun! My wife says I should take it easy with this lest the SWAT 
team shows up.

The pulse width is a few hundred nanoseconds, estimated. Trying for a more 
accurate measurement. Today a roll of #8 wire should show up from Amazon for me 
to make a 10:1 current divider.

The capacitor stands almost three feet high with a large insulator, 13,500 pf @ 
50 kV. It weighs a lot, at least 30 lb and since I don’t want to pick it up by 
the insulator, I have to drag it across the floor as there is nothing to grab 
onto to lift it. I got a few of them as surplus, being thrown out, from UNLV. 
Their EE department must be fun!

I have been playing around with high voltage stuff since about 15-16 years old. 
My experiments back then generated so much EMI that the feds showed up at my 
house while I was in school. I would like to have been a fly on wall while they 
were talking with my mother. This was back in 1962.

Currently working on constructing a Marx generator. Parts are in from Amazon 
(resistors and capacitors). If you don’t see anymore posts, you will know what 
happened.

I still feel like I am 16! Same wonderment at physics. My lifetime hero is 
Nicola Tesla I am also like a 16 year old in that at 74, I am running a few 
thousands of miles per year. Even at 110+ degrees in the summer!

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D79B46.C7707150]

From: Bill Owsley 
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:13
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

Typical lightning is about 300 million volts and 30 thousand amps.
And if you are within several 10's of feet of a strike, it makes an impression.
So a scaled down version is useful, like Doug's emp generator.
Useful for imaginative coupling into various devices under test.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on 
Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ=sp2-iZpIiLm92XEmcPXBIBJpjhPwJBr6W8MUBrfUEC0=iulfSxZNFywm7IvVze4oy1MTcH3xq_vR9a2ZQN0Zjys=>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:55 PM, doug emcesd.com
mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:
I am not sure of the peak power as the peak voltage and peak current are likely 
offset in time some.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Manny Barron mailto:mbar...@ieee.org>>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:05:50 PM
To: doug emcesd.com mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org> 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org>>
Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

Hi Doug,

Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A  x  15,000 V  =  15,000,000 W.
Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power!
Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range.
And hope you're in the desert.
Very interesting indeed!

Manny Barron
EMC Engineer


On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:50 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=Mt-t26cldbDAs9JWcQmqSyxTZalpvFdvRFznV1zYiJo=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:

Hi All,



I have created two new video channels over on Odysee.



On 
https://Odysee.com/@Dougsengineering<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougsengineering=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=T7nCFm0nceIbZS02TODVqJX3_RzqmkcsuFG-dohJ6Dk=>
 I will be posting technical videos as well as copying over my YouTube 
technical videos there. New content will only be posted to Odysee though. I am 
currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. Nothing 
like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am also 
working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. If 
you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized.



On 
https://Odysee.com/@Dougshealthandrunning<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougshealthandrunning=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=HX_bRwuehlJJFdUFi9Z-tdVKbEKV4Y8LR0VEj0erMqE=>
 the content has nothing to do with engineering but will contain my health 
related v

Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

[doug emcesd.com]

I am not sure of the peak power as the peak voltage and peak current are likely 
offset in time some.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:05:50 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org 

Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

Hi Doug,

Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A  x  15,000 V  =  15,000,000 W.
Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power!
Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range.
And hope you're in the desert.
Very interesting indeed!

Manny Barron
EMC Engineer


On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:50 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=Mt-t26cldbDAs9JWcQmqSyxTZalpvFdvRFznV1zYiJo=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:

Hi All,



I have created two new video channels over on Odysee.



On 
https://Odysee.com/@Dougsengineering<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougsengineering=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=T7nCFm0nceIbZS02TODVqJX3_RzqmkcsuFG-dohJ6Dk=>
 I will be posting technical videos as well as copying over my YouTube 
technical videos there. New content will only be posted to Odysee though. I am 
currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. Nothing 
like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am also 
working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. If 
you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized.



On 
https://Odysee.com/@Dougshealthandrunning<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougshealthandrunning=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=HX_bRwuehlJJFdUFi9Z-tdVKbEKV4Y8LR0VEj0erMqE=>
 the content has nothing to do with engineering but will contain my health 
related videos, topics like diet, supplements, and running/exercise.  (I am at 
about 1500 miles of running in 2021 so far at age 74, much of it at 110 degrees 
F in the Southern Nevada desert this summer.)



Each channel now has one video with lots coming soon. Some of the engineering 
videos are snippets from the demonstrations of my seminars, including the 
virtual ones coming up shortly.



Doug

[cid:17b60db948f4ce8e91]



-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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--

Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

[doug emcesd.com]

It is a short pulse of a few hundreds of ns. I had to put 100 Ohms of 
resistance to get the pulse down to 100 Amps so I can measure it. The spark is 
MUCH more intense (sounds like a gun being fired) without the resistance and 
just limited by stray inductance. The peak current with the resistance in the 
circuit is  early what I would expect where the resistance dominates the 
circuit impedance. 1000 Amperes is an estimate as I have no easy way to measure 
it directly. Somewhere from 500 A and up.

The capacitor weighs about 30 lbs! By careful adjustment of the gap I can get 
it to become a relaxation oscillator. It sounds like a machine gun. My wife 
says I should keep it to a minimum lest the SWAT team shows up.

My experiments have been known to adversely affect electronic gadgets, like my 
wristwatch and a camera.

But if one really needs to know what a piece of equipment can take, this setup 
can do it. The pulse is far above what secondary lightning protectors can 
handle.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 5:05:50 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org 

Subject: Re: [PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

Hi Doug,

Uh, let's see ... 1,000 A  x  15,000 V  =  15,000,000 W.
Not sure about the gain or directivity but that's alot of power!
Hopefully it's just a pulse or two in the microsecond range.
And hope you're in the desert.
Very interesting indeed!

Manny Barron
EMC Engineer


On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:50 PM doug 
emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=Mt-t26cldbDAs9JWcQmqSyxTZalpvFdvRFznV1zYiJo=>
 mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:

Hi All,



I have created two new video channels over on Odysee.



On 
https://Odysee.com/@Dougsengineering<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougsengineering=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=T7nCFm0nceIbZS02TODVqJX3_RzqmkcsuFG-dohJ6Dk=>
 I will be posting technical videos as well as copying over my YouTube 
technical videos there. New content will only be posted to Odysee though. I am 
currently working on a new video using my home built EMP generator. Nothing 
like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to spice up the day! I am also 
working on a Marx generator to get extremely high voltage pulses as well. If 
you don’t hear anymore from me, I may have been vaporized.



On 
https://Odysee.com/@Dougshealthandrunning<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__Odysee.com_-40Dougshealthandrunning=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=yIOvFk6eGOB4699DY_4xOSD2hAlHciioAbJQcS1DMq4=HX_bRwuehlJJFdUFi9Z-tdVKbEKV4Y8LR0VEj0erMqE=>
 the content has nothing to do with engineering but will contain my health 
related videos, topics like diet, supplements, and running/exercise.  (I am at 
about 1500 miles of running in 2021 so far at age 74, much of it at 110 degrees 
F in the Southern Nevada desert this summer.)



Each channel now has one video with lots coming soon. Some of the engineering 
videos are snippets from the demonstrations of my seminars, including the 
virtual ones coming up shortly.



Doug

[cid:17b60db948f4ce8e91]



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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)<https://u

[PSES] My new Odysee technical channel

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have created two new video channels over on Odysee.

On https://Odysee.com/@Dougsengineering I will be posting technical videos as 
well as copying over my YouTube technical videos there. New content will only 
be posted to Odysee though. I am currently working on a new video using my home 
built EMP generator. Nothing like a 1000 Ampere, 15 kV high voltage pulse to 
spice up the day! I am also working on a Marx generator to get extremely high 
voltage pulses as well. If you don't hear anymore from me, I may have been 
vaporized.

On https://Odysee.com/@Dougshealthandrunning the content has nothing to do with 
engineering but will contain my health related videos, topics like diet, 
supplements, and running/exercise.  (I am at about 1500 miles of running in 
2021 so far at age 74, much of it at 110 degrees F in the Southern Nevada 
desert this summer.)

Each channel now has one video with lots coming soon. Some of the engineering 
videos are snippets from the demonstrations of my seminars, including the 
virtual ones coming up shortly.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D79518.EEC376A0]


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[PSES] My latest Technical Tidbit video on system problems

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I just uploaded my latest video on how a circuit problem in one part of a 
system can appear to be coming from a far away part of the system. In this 
case, the example is of a noise issue on one PCB that appears to come from a 
remote PCB meters away in a large system. Here is the link to the page on my 
website:

http://emcesd.com/tt2021/tt042321.htm

More detailed information on this topic will be shortly added to my virtual 
seminar as a large number of topics already have been.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D73852.E6CD0AB0]


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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David Heald: 

[PSES] new video posted on design rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

A few weeks ago I presented a live web session on design rules of thumb. I made 
a video of it! The video and the pdf graphics from the video (they are not 
self-explanatory without seeing the video) are posted as the latest Technical 
Tidbit on my website.

Feel free to download the video and post it elsewhere as long as no changes are 
made to it.

Here is the link: https://emcesd.com/tt2021/tt040621.htm

If you back up one level on the site, you will see my other nearly 300 articles 
and papers.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D72AFA.87972860]


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] [SI-LIST] Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

That is interesting!

Engineering Rules of Thumb,

Second presentation on Monday at 11 am PDT

Engineering presentation by Doug

Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.

https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/619784445

You can also dial in using your phone.
(For supported devices, tap a one-touch number below to join instantly.)

United States: +1 (872) 240-3412
- One-touch: tel:+18722403412,,619784445#

Access Code: 619-784-445

New to GoToMeeting? Get the app now and be ready when your first meeting 
starts: https://global.gotomeeting.com/install/619784445



Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: richard schumacher 
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 7:55:06 PM
To: doug emcesd.com 
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

??

On Mar 19, 2021, at 2:22 PM, doug 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com=DwIFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=AHPvo-dz2OsjuJF7yahCE5eUxWRDRd3NeExukA1IGwg=M1y5VrqYZEAguJnd8SdR1Ajg9qtLV6be4O8lxLyqM9g=
  wrote:

€ĄđɝÛaz
čšŸĖÉŠh–ˆ"zÏČ‚‹l‰Ũ­­§$yÖ§vZ,ķÚÚrJķ)žü·­ĸĸėvˆ­jÝujcÃN‰ĖĒwZËðĄđÉ"ēØZīâŸĒžĻŧðčš܉ßâ™ĻÓMĸŽ˜ĸÓPûÔ
 
@ĸŋ8ÎtÓņkĒo†į$č.ēßĖp:0zYĸrœ’oæ{'Ŧē‹§wũ(›ôžžßÅŪ'ZËó­ČuũýīÛ]uĸ]“ĢũhšĶqëýĘ&ýÚ.ƒũĶqëýĘ&ĸũhšÝēh­‡ú++›į-ýĸüô„Kũ§‚)Þzļ§‚ŧĨzĘķĶlxƒĒčĸ"Ëaz·ĐyŦhœZâuŽš·]Zš‰ĸ#Žæh§šŨŽ•Ŧ^ĸĸ†į$č.ēßĖp:0zYL{'ŦJ‹§tķ›Ēķ­Ēļž°‰Üĸo7Ų&§=Ķå
  
ÞüŦ‘é^Ëð€ũŽôÛýķÓƒáĒwđŨOøóŊõŨŪ„ÆßöïAZĮtĸ:ĸÍųéČnrIĸ™ėžŪĘ.ßÜĒoæj)mĢũ!đÉ&þgēzŧ(šwĸr‰ĸš&ýÚ.éœzĮĸr‰ĸv‹
 üC 
ĸãĸ™ĻĨķÝĒčĸĀ„H?Â8ÏĸIéíýgëk/Ėj·!ŨŋöÓm}ĸž€1:ĸĀĸ=$ÂüēM!WōOÎDoæj)mĢņ  
óŌL/Ë!$Ōĸ AüäFý+›į-ýĸüô„Kũ§‚)Þzļ§‚ŧĨzĘķĶoņLDM
--
To unsubscribe from si-list:
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Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

Forgot link to one of John Campbel’s presentation to see his style. A modified 
version of this is the style I will use on Thursday. I think this style can be 
very useful in engineering presentations especially if you have to whip up 
something quickly without a lot of work.

https://youtu.be/cYdIik4z-h0

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: doug emcesd.com 
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 09:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: *** [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

I had mentioned the I was inspired by the presentation style of Dr. John 
Campbell (except I mistyped his name or autocorrect struck). Here is a link to 
his post yesterday if you want to take a look  BTW, his daily update is very 
good and his presentation style is perfect if you need to do a presentation 
without investing a lot of time.

See you on Thursday at 11 am PDT.  Will repeat on Friday at 11 am for those 
that have a conflict. Here is the link:

https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/619784445<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__global.gotomeeting.com_join_619784445=DwMGaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=LyNrQjOz67GID2cs33oPICScKo3YyF7LqNnYmey0zZY=fM8mM4VKwChHXtl93s1F0x76hzng070FcnBL5NfSB3Y=>


Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 06:55
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

I believe Doug is going forward with the meeting.  My mistake was sending a 
calendar invite to the whole list rather than my personal calendar.  Sorry for 
the confusion.

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Bansi Patel 
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:54 AM
To: Stultz, Mark 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Mark
Sorry to see cancellation. I hope you do it very soon. These are the saving 
tips that helps up engineers. Hoping to hear from you soon. Cheers and be safe
Bansi
Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 16, 2021, at 9:21 AM, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:

My apologies for the meeting spam…

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

-Original Appointment-
From: Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 On Behalf Of Stultz, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:19 AM
To: doug emcesd.com; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Canceled: engineering rules of thumb
When: Thursday, March 18, 2021 11:00 AM-12:00 PM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & 
Canada).
Where: Microsoft Teams Meeting
Importance: High


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Microsoft Teams meeting
Join on your computer or mobile app
Click here to join the 
meeting<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_ap_t-2D59584e83_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fteams.microsoft.com-252Fl-252Fmeetup-2Djoin-252F19-25253ameeting-5FOGZlNmNkZDItMDhmNC00ZmJlLTg2ZTUtOGFjZDI5ZmZlMzI3-252540thread.v2-252F0-253Fcontext-253D-25257b-252522Tid-252522-25253a-2525222691a251-2D4c38-2D4643-2Daf0b-2D0c0982f197bd-252522-25252c-252522Oid-252522-25253a-252522ed54b204-2D7a1a-2D4b7c-2D876d-2D7cbb4035f3ee-252522-25257d-26data-3D04-257C01-257Cmark.stultz-2540sealedair.com-257C1c8f4ca1da6c4ef8344508d8e882e8e7-257C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd-257C0-257C0-257C637514996242903861-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C1000-26sdata-3DLeToko-252BZTjI5zFiEToyur5auOeyBmvVMm98ojV0Bojs-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwMGaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=DtgCeXgf_1PUgkbzDJUTVi4ACXy6igoJT9DgtMSbj_w=HkM_-kSnqlTHISQ-melhxHxUv4sl4vESLrMEXTxfgnk=>
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Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

I had mentioned the I was inspired by the presentation style of Dr. John 
Campbell (except I mistyped his name or autocorrect struck). Here is a link to 
his post yesterday if you want to take a look  BTW, his daily update is very 
good and his presentation style is perfect if you need to do a presentation 
without investing a lot of time.

See you on Thursday at 11 am PDT.  Will repeat on Friday at 11 am for those 
that have a conflict. Here is the link:

https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/619784445


Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 06:55
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

I believe Doug is going forward with the meeting.  My mistake was sending a 
calendar invite to the whole list rather than my personal calendar.  Sorry for 
the confusion.

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

From: Bansi Patel 
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:54 AM
To: Stultz, Mark 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Mark
Sorry to see cancellation. I hope you do it very soon. These are the saving 
tips that helps up engineers. Hoping to hear from you soon. Cheers and be safe
Bansi
Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 16, 2021, at 9:21 AM, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:

My apologies for the meeting spam…

Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402

-Original Appointment-
From: Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 On Behalf Of Stultz, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:19 AM
To: doug emcesd.com; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Canceled: engineering rules of thumb
When: Thursday, March 18, 2021 11:00 AM-12:00 PM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & 
Canada).
Where: Microsoft Teams Meeting
Importance: High


 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Microsoft Teams meeting
Join on your computer or mobile app
Click here to join the 
meeting<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_ap_t-2D59584e83_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fteams.microsoft.com-252Fl-252Fmeetup-2Djoin-252F19-25253ameeting-5FOGZlNmNkZDItMDhmNC00ZmJlLTg2ZTUtOGFjZDI5ZmZlMzI3-252540thread.v2-252F0-253Fcontext-253D-25257b-252522Tid-252522-25253a-2525222691a251-2D4c38-2D4643-2Daf0b-2D0c0982f197bd-252522-25252c-252522Oid-252522-25253a-252522ed54b204-2D7a1a-2D4b7c-2D876d-2D7cbb4035f3ee-252522-25257d-26data-3D04-257C01-257Cmark.stultz-2540sealedair.com-257C1c8f4ca1da6c4ef8344508d8e882e8e7-257C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd-257C0-257C0-257C637514996242903861-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C1000-26sdata-3DLeToko-252BZTjI5zFiEToyur5auOeyBmvVMm98ojV0Bojs-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwMGaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=DtgCeXgf_1PUgkbzDJUTVi4ACXy6igoJT9DgtMSbj_w=HkM_-kSnqlTHISQ-melhxHxUv4sl4vESLrMEXTxfgnk=>
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Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

It is not cancelled. The link I sent out will work. I will send out another 
link for the same time on Monday as I understand there is a conflict for some 
people.

Here is the info for Thursday for convenience:

Engineering presentation by Doug
Thu, Mar 18, 2021 11:00 AM - 12:00 PM (PDT)

Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.

https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/619784445

You can also dial in using your phone.
(For supported devices, tap a one-touch number below to join instantly.)

United States: +1 (872) 240-3412
- One-touch: tel:+18722403412,,619784445#

Access Code: 619-784-445


New to GoToMeeting? Get the app now and be ready when your first meeting 
starts: https://global.gotomeeting.com/install/619784445

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Bansi Patel 
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 6:53:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

Mark
Sorry to see cancellation. I hope you do it very soon. These are the saving 
tips that helps up engineers. Hoping to hear from you soon. Cheers and be safe
Bansi

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2021, at 9:21 AM, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:



My apologies for the meeting spam…



Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402



-Original Appointment-
From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> On Behalf 
Of Stultz, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:19 AM
To: doug emcesd.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Canceled: engineering rules of thumb
When: Thursday, March 18, 2021 11:00 AM-12:00 PM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & 
Canada).
Where: Microsoft Teams Meeting
Importance: High





 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.







Microsoft Teams meeting

Join on your computer or mobile app

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 | Meeting 
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Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

That is ok. The more the merrier!

The style of presentation is inspired by Dr. John Clark, a British doctor who 
delivers a daily Corona Virus update on YouTube. His presentation style is 
great for minimizing the overhead of doing a presentation while making it more 
interesting for the audience.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 6:55:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb


I believe Doug is going forward with the meeting.  My mistake was sending a 
calendar invite to the whole list rather than my personal calendar.  Sorry for 
the confusion.



Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402



From: Bansi Patel 
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:54 AM
To: Stultz, Mark 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] engineering rules of thumb





 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.



Mark

Sorry to see cancellation. I hope you do it very soon. These are the saving 
tips that helps up engineers. Hoping to hear from you soon. Cheers and be safe

Bansi

Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 16, 2021, at 9:21 AM, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 wrote:



My apologies for the meeting spam…



Mark Stultz | CMSE® | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, 
OH | 330-342-2402



-Original Appointment-
From: Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
 On Behalf Of Stultz, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 9:19 AM
To: doug emcesd.com; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Canceled: engineering rules of thumb
When: Thursday, March 18, 2021 11:00 AM-12:00 PM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & 
Canada).
Where: Microsoft Teams Meeting
Importance: High





 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.







Microsoft Teams meeting

Join on your computer or mobile app

Click here to join the 
meeting<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_ap_t-2D59584e83_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fteams.microsoft.com-252Fl-252Fmeetup-2Djoin-252F19-25253ameeting-5FOGZlNmNkZDItMDhmNC00ZmJlLTg2ZTUtOGFjZDI5ZmZlMzI3-252540thread.v2-252F0-253Fcontext-253D-25257b-252522Tid-252522-25253a-2525222691a251-2D4c38-2D4643-2Daf0b-2D0c0982f197bd-252522-25252c-252522Oid-252522-25253a-252522ed54b204-2D7a1a-2D4b7c-2D876d-2D7cbb4035f3ee-252522-25257d-26data-3D04-257C01-257Cmark.stultz-2540sealedair.com-257C1c8f4ca1da6c4ef8344508d8e882e8e7-257C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd-257C0-257C0-257C637514996242903861-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C1000-26sdata-3DLeToko-252BZTjI5zFiEToyur5auOeyBmvVMm98ojV0Bojs-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwMGaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=DtgCeXgf_1PUgkbzDJUTVi4ACXy6igoJT9DgtMSbj_w=HkM_-kSnqlTHISQ-melhxHxUv4sl4vESLrMEXTxfgnk=>

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[PSES] engineering rules of thumb

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I am going to do a 30 minute informal "Rules of Thumb in Electrical 
Engineering" presentation on Thursday at 11 am PDT (US West coast time). All 
are welcome and there is no cost. There will not be a set of slides to 
distribute but you are encouraged to take screenshots of anything that 
interests you (in Windows you can use the built in app "Snip n' Sketch" to do 
this or on Mac you already know what to do).

My GoToMeeting session can accommodate 150 computers and the session will be 
first come first served. I will cover some rules of thumb for design and safety 
(my safety) that I have accumulated over the last 60 years in engineering.

Afterwards all are welcome to hang around for my rules of thumb on personal 
health. Rules that have me in my mid-seventies running 500 miles so far this 
year. Tons of energy and rarely getting sick (last time I missed a day of work 
was 30 years ago, last flu, cold, or sore throat was about 47 years ago).

Here is the information:

Engineering presentation by Doug
Thu, Mar 18, 2021 11:00 AM - 12:00 PM (PDT)

Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.

https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/619784445

You can also dial in using your phone.
(For supported devices, tap a one-touch number below to join instantly.)

United States: +1 (872) 240-3412
- One-touch: tel:+18722403412,,619784445#

Access Code: 619-784-445

New to GoToMeeting? Get the app now and be ready when your first meeting 
starts: https://global.gotomeeting.com/install/619784445

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D719B5.B1D68540]


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
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[PSES] My latest video,, another scope hack

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Here is my latest video, a scope hack for high voltage measurements when you 
don't have an HV probe.

https://youtu.be/i87k7Qvakbc

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D6757F.E9159350]


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[PSES] new videos

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have been adding a lot of technical (and a few health related) videos to my 
YouTube channel. I plan to do a few more this coming week. Here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/user/dougcsmith/videos

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D673E1.756EF490]


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[PSES] My latest video - a scope hack

[doug emcesd.com]

HI All,

I have just uploaded my latest video describing a scope hack (or feature, if 
you would). This is very handy for looking at some fast signals.

https://youtu.be/f_p9Q684a64

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D66B43.752F8E00]


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[PSES] LInk to my latest technical videos

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I have been creating a lot of videos lately with more coming. Here is the link 
to them:

https://www.youtube.com/user/dougcsmith

Some of them involve high power, up to a megawatt peak power utilizing a 
capacitor I can barely lift, to test extreme failure modes (and to have some 
fun). I have been experimenting with high power and high voltage since age 14 
when I made my 600 Watt 300 kHz Tesla coil, almost 60 years ago that brought 
the Feds to my house while I was at school (but that is a story for another 
time).

Doug

[cid:image001.jpg@01D66A6E.CBAC45A0]


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[PSES] High pulsed power video

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Here is my latest video where I apply high power pulses to various resistors 
(~1 Megawatt) to investigate resistor robustness. This leads to a discussion of 
the safety implications of anytime a 1 W or higher resistor is used on a PCB.

https://youtu.be/IYqCiKJBRiU

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D66693.479C2750]


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[PSES] My latest technical video

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I just posted my latest video. This one is a time domain treatment of 
multi-turn ferrite cores that might be used in circuit design, EMC, or ESD. 
Most analyses of these structures are in the frequency domain but time domain 
analysis can help better understand how these cores affect pulsed performance 
of a circuit.

https://youtu.be/Tlc_V8BIR58

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D66434.6D12BD70]


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[PSES] Website walkthrough and new info

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

If you search YouTube for "dougcsmith" you will find my page there. I am adding 
videos at about 3 per week these days including one just now. Lots of good tech 
videos and a few that are health related.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D65DE8.5AA02990]


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[PSES] Latest engineering video

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Everyone,

I just uploaded my latest engineering video on altering a current probe's 
frequency to suit you from the outside.

You may not think current probes are useful in SI, but they can be. I have a 
method, for instance, using a current probe, to measure the peak noise VOLTAGE 
riding on a power supply. It does not involve a resistor which would reduce 
sensitivity and not provide much information about the current drive behind the 
noise. I may make a video on this in the future.

Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/_tDy9CmIAzY

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D65B7E.22B6A390]


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[PSES] New video on static charges causing EMI and SI problems.

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Here is my latest video (created on a ChromeBook!) covering a way static 
charges can generate EMI and SI issues. Hope you enjoy it.

https://youtu.be/4Ay9zM34vKg

Doug
[https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr]

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[PSES] New YouTube video on current probe terminations

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

I just uploaded a new video on placement of 50 Ohm feed-thru terminations used 
to alter current probe response. You may also want to look at some of the other 
videos on my channel.

Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/bWitxU_4SrE

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D656D7.18F253A0]


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Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

All the data was published in several papers after being replicated many times 
around the world in round robin testing and was furnished to the IEC in the 
1990s. The data I took this week on most simulators on the market today gave 
similar results. A few of the simulators were the same models available in the 
1990s and the data matched perfectly with the data published and furnished to 
TC77B over 20 years ago! We had 5 GHz scopes then too, if you had enough money, 
which AT Bell Labs and HP did.

The IEC has been sitting on the data for over 20 years now!  No new testing is 
needed, just look up the papers from then. Given a day’s time I could find 
them. Jon Barth and I could write a draft addition to the standard in a week 
that would fix most of the problems industry is currently having.

I know the IEC structure and was just musing what would be nice, even if not 
possible. I was  involved with TC77B for years.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2019 3:56:15 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


I feel sure, and I expect you do too, that the IEC simply cannot agree to your 
first condition, because of the constitutional requirements of IEC and its 
constituent National Committees for stakeholder, and later public, consultation 
through the National Committees. While unusual, your second condition might be 
accepted, but it would be simpler if you published your results in a 
peer-reviewed journal, so that the paper(s) could be cited in the Bibliography 
of the standard.

I really don't see what you expect to achieve by attempting to impose these 
conditions. What you most probably will achieve, if you maintain the first one, 
is nothing, despite all your work.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-11-08 23:08, doug emcesd.com wrote:

Hi Monrad and the group,



First, Monrad please unblock my email at you company. Tried to send this but 
bounced.



Barth Electronics and I took tons of data this week on many ESD simulators and 
more are coming. Barth’s measurement setup is likely the best one on the 
planet. Jon Barth understands metrology of time domain high voltage and high 
current waveforms better than any engineer or scientist I have met. He even 
makes his own resistors and capacitors as commercially available ones often do 
not work well. He is a perfectionist.



So we have all this data, which we can make available to the IEC. The data was 
paid for by four parties (likely cost $20,000 to do it all) but I can get 
agreement from everyone to release if desired. We would ask only two things:

  1.  We intend to publish the data so it is important it not be released to 
the public, would like an NDA that only committee members can use if for 
development of the standard, not even their companies may have it.
  2.  Recognition of the four parties as having contributed to the standard in 
the appropriate page of the standard.



Any thoughts? I feel like the NASA people when all the data came back from 
Pluto and they said it would take a long time to analyze.



To save you weeks, if not months, of analysis, I suggest you come to Boulder 
City, NV to receive the data. In addition,  myself and possibly Barth will go 
through the data with you and also show you how it was recorded. I can save you 
a LOT of time by pointing out what is happening in important parts of the data, 
and I can also describe why it is happening. I figure a day here would work, 
but you could tly out the second day afternoon to leave the morning if any more 
discussion were needed.



Besides, the weather is much better in Boulder City than in Colorado this time 
of year (70s and warm sun typically). It is so rare not to have sunshine on a 
day that a local bar gives out free drinks if there is no sun. Of course the 
summertime is another matter (110-115 degrees) but I ran hundreds and hundreds 
of miles in that last summer, used to it.



Doug

[SYMBOL]



From: Monrad Monsen <mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:44
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of 
ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)



Hi!

Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?



I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B beg

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Bill and the group,

But the noise emitted by some simulators has nothing to do with reality and 
designing for that does not produce any benefit. Also, the noise from 
simulators is not included in their specifications and can change overnight, so 
one cannot say a simulator is (worst case) because there is no characterization.

It boils down to a poorly written standards and the lack of understanding of 
metrology for fast di/dt waveforms at high voltage. Even if acknowledged, 
standards bodies are more likely to keep a poorly written standard around than 
to correct it in my experience.

What would help is to populate the committees with a broader set of engineering 
experience. Also, my opinion is that many of the simulator manufacturers 
clearly do not understand what they are building!

Having been on various IEC and other ESD committee over the last 40 years, it 
is abundantly clear than some of the members do not understand what they are 
writing. The IEC 61000-4-4 capacitive (and just as inductive, almost perfect 
transformer) clamp that sends more energy to the auxiliary equipment than to 
the EUT is a perfect example. If the clamp is terminated in 50 Ohms on the Aux 
end, it would fix the problem, not sure if that has happened. But that clamp is 
very directional due to its strong magnetic field coupling acting with the e 
field coupling. The committee that designed it had no idea! But the effect can 
be duplicated in the lab in about 10 minutes. Similarly shielded cables are 
also nearly perfect transformers with the shield often being the primary and 
the center conductor the secondary. If they did not act this way, there would 
be no shielding!

Doug
[SYMBOL]

From: Bill Owsley 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 18:06
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; doug emcesd.com 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

My experience, is that all brands, commercial and custom private built, will 
all make for different results.
The ESD generators can all make the required waveforms as poorly defined and 
tested.
Yet each different brand or model will give different results.
Why ?  Incomplete performance definition and verification procedures.
So we test to extremes and build to pass, then no matter what equipment is used 
to test, the product complies, so far !


On Monday, October 14, 2019, 03:42:00 PM EDT, doug emcesd.com 
mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:


Hi Montara,

There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written is not 
very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and determined what was 
necessary. We also did a lot of round robin testing. Probably most of what you 
want has been published in the 1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from 
the era. Look for authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 
61000-4-2), Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt.

Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members for 
various reasons that I do not consider valid.

Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Monrad Monsen mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of 
ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


Hi!

Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?



I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD 
waveform verification (some call this “calibration”) because under today’s 
rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal 
content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results.  
Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any 
evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled 
parameter directly affects spectral content.  I would like to know if anyone 
has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when using different 
Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all calibrated simulators under 
today’s rules.



I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as local 
labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial preference is to 
not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy new ESD simulators, but 
perhaps this cost is warranted if there are actual wide variations in ESD test 
results depen

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Monrad and the group,

First, Monrad please unblock my email at you company. Tried to send this but 
bounced.

Barth Electronics and I took tons of data this week on many ESD simulators and 
more are coming. Barth's measurement setup is likely the best one on the 
planet. Jon Barth understands metrology of time domain high voltage and high 
current waveforms better than any engineer or scientist I have met. He even 
makes his own resistors and capacitors as commercially available ones often do 
not work well. He is a perfectionist.

So we have all this data, which we can make available to the IEC. The data was 
paid for by four parties (likely cost $20,000 to do it all) but I can get 
agreement from everyone to release if desired. We would ask only two things:

  1.  We intend to publish the data so it is important it not be released to 
the public, would like an NDA that only committee members can use if for 
development of the standard, not even their companies may have it.
  2.  Recognition of the four parties as having contributed to the standard in 
the appropriate page of the standard.

Any thoughts? I feel like the NASA people when all the data came back from 
Pluto and they said it would take a long time to analyze.

To save you weeks, if not months, of analysis, I suggest you come to Boulder 
City, NV to receive the data. In addition,  myself and possibly Barth will go 
through the data with you and also show you how it was recorded. I can save you 
a LOT of time by pointing out what is happening in important parts of the data, 
and I can also describe why it is happening. I figure a day here would work, 
but you could tly out the second day afternoon to leave the morning if any more 
discussion were needed.

Besides, the weather is much better in Boulder City than in Colorado this time 
of year (70s and warm sun typically). It is so rare not to have sunshine on a 
day that a local bar gives out free drinks if there is no sun. Of course the 
summertime is another matter (110-115 degrees) but I ran hundreds and hundreds 
of miles in that last summer, used to it.

Doug
[SYMBOL]

From: Monrad Monsen 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:44
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of 
ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD 
waveform verification (some call this "calibration") because under today's 
rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal 
content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results.  
Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any 
evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled 
parameter directly affects spectral content.  I would like to know if anyone 
has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when using different 
Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all calibrated simulators under 
today's rules.

I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as local 
labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial preference is to 
not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy new ESD simulators, but 
perhaps this cost is warranted if there are actual wide variations in ESD test 
results depending on the brand of ESD simulator.

Thanks.

Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist
Phone: +1.303.272.9612
Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy
500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021

-


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

No decent ESD gun should emit EMI pulses in the air mode, the contact relay 
should stay quiet while the tip slowly (milliseconds) charges up. Most guns do 
not do this and fire the contact relay at which point you do not actually know 
the voltage of the air discharge. The only gun that does air discharge 
correctly, in my technical opinion after working in ESD for the last 35 years, 
is the KeyTek Mini-Zap. It works in a completely different way and is the only 
gun I am aware of that you know for sure exactly what voltage the air discharge 
happened at. You can also use it to charge objects, like me, to known voltages 
(just did that for some ESD research, and also use it for a high voltage 
breakdown tester.

Doug
[SYMBOL]

From: Bill Owsley <00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 22:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

One example that comes to mind, out of a long history of wonderment in ESD 
testing, is for an air discharge, pulling the trigger causes the product to 
glitch, before approaching the product target point.
Found a way around the anomaly, to find not problem with the actual air 
discharge.
But then a moment later, releasing the trigger caused another glitch.
Sent ESD gun for repairs and got a 'no defect found' result.
Sent to an independent calibration lab of notable credentials, for a good to go 
results.
Repeat test in our lab with the same glitchy results.
ps. on the side, I monitor the radiated emissions by using an o'scope with a 
simple probe hanging open loop somewhere nearby.
The scope captured waveform indicated a wild radiated event when pressing the 
trigger for an air discharge.
With resulting products glitches.
Another waveform for the actual spark, and no product glitches.
Followed by another wild radiated event upon releasing the trigger, that also 
caused glitches.


Verification of the ESD waveform by using a "target" was also monitored with an 
independent scope.
A thought occurred that an ESD event happens so much faster than any human 
movement to move the gun towards the target fast without causing damage, that 
it is silly to do so.
So I tried placing the tip a small distance from the target.
The monitoring scope indicates that the arming and air discharge seems to 
happen at the same time.
The trigger release still causes the radiated event, which often triggers 
another air discharge.
With the close spacing between ESD gun probe and verification target, the 
immediate discharge keeps the dual discharges away.
And the waveform is nearly text book perfect, every time.
Verified !







On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 03:50:55 PM EDT, John Woodgate 
mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> wrote:



Well, some of the set-ups I've seen appear to accept violent mismatches, so 
concern about the cables may not be misplaced. But I still think that an 
in-depth study of the discharge path, from source back to source, is needed.

What is a 'reasonable waveform definition'? Do you mean a precise definition of 
a realistic waveform?  I think that IEC 61000-4-2 has a precise definition, but 
I have no idea whether the waveform is realistic, even less whether is it a 
reasonable 'average' of a range of possible waveforms. But we must note that it 
is a specification to be met under verification test conditions: it does not 
claim to be the waveform that actually occurs during any specific immunity 
test. It could not possibly claim that.

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-10-15 20:06, doug emcesd.com wrote:
Well said, Derek!

I am always amazed that EMC people worry about the measurement uncertainty of 
the coax cable that connects the target to the scope yet ignore factors, like 
lack of reasonable waveform definition, that have orders of magnitude more 
effect on the EUT.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org


-


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Re: [PSES] FCC regulatory statements

[doug emcesd.com]

Yes!!!

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: IBM Ken 
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 4:56:32 PM
To: doug emcesd.com 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC regulatory statements

Hi Doug- Are you referring to CONELRAD which mandated that all transmitters go 
off the air (except for certain 640 and 1240hz MW broadcast stations which 
rotated to confuse enemy RDF) in the event of a Soviet attack on the US? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CONELRAD

-Ken A

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 6:53 PM doug emcesd.com<http://emcesd.com> 
mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:

Hi John,



The radio listening law was around many decades ago. Usually we just had a #47 
pilot lamp on a radio instead of the speaker to know when the station went off 
the air. At that point, one was to listen on 640 or 1240 kHz. Only required of 
ham radio operators. That went away decades ago.



I like that for most equipment there are no immunity requirements in the US. 
The market is a very strong force and will eliminate companies whose equipment 
does not work in its environment. The standards should be there but not 
required.



I buy stuff from overseas that I know is not likely to pass all the immunity 
tests, but I do not care. I ascertain if it will work for what I want. I would 
rather not pay for testing I do not need.



Large companies, on the other hand, may want to protect themselves from their 
suppliers by citing standards to be applied. But that should be up to them, not 
the government.



Doug

[SYMBOL]



From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 13:37
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC regulatory statements



Precisely. That's bureaucracy for you. Isn't there also a US law that requires 
you to listen on a radio for Homeland Security broadcasts? Everyone is guilty 
of something.

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-31 20:24, Richard Nute wrote:



“This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules.  Operation is subject to 
the following two conditions:  (1) This device may not cause harmful 
interference, and  (2) this device must accept any interference received, 
including interference that may cause undesired operation”



Hmm.  So, if the device causes harmful interference, operation is prohibited 
(1).



And, if the device accepts interference that causes undesired operation, 
operation is prohibited (2).



A CFL causes undesirable interference with my radio.  So, operation of both the 
CFL and radio is prohibited.



Is my interpretation correct?



Best regards,

Rich







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This me

Re: [PSES] FCC regulatory statements

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi John,

The radio listening law was around many decades ago. Usually we just had a #47 
pilot lamp on a radio instead of the speaker to know when the station went off 
the air. At that point, one was to listen on 640 or 1240 kHz. Only required of 
ham radio operators. That went away decades ago.

I like that for most equipment there are no immunity requirements in the US. 
The market is a very strong force and will eliminate companies whose equipment 
does not work in its environment. The standards should be there but not 
required.

I buy stuff from overseas that I know is not likely to pass all the immunity 
tests, but I do not care. I ascertain if it will work for what I want. I would 
rather not pay for testing I do not need.

Large companies, on the other hand, may want to protect themselves from their 
suppliers by citing standards to be applied. But that should be up to them, not 
the government.

Doug
[SYMBOL]

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 13:37
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC regulatory statements


Precisely. That's bureaucracy for you. Isn't there also a US law that requires 
you to listen on a radio for Homeland Security broadcasts? Everyone is guilty 
of something.

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-10-31 20:24, Richard Nute wrote:

"This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules.  Operation is subject to 
the following two conditions:  (1) This device may not cause harmful 
interference, and  (2) this device must accept any interference received, 
including interference that may cause undesired operation"

Hmm.  So, if the device causes harmful interference, operation is prohibited 
(1).

And, if the device accepts interference that causes undesired operation, 
operation is prohibited (2).

A CFL causes undesirable interference with my radio.  So, operation of both the 
CFL and radio is prohibited.

Is my interpretation correct?

Best regards,
Rich



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Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

One time the meeting was at the French Riviera. The Paris airport would have 
been better for most everyone. I just object to having the meeting at vacation 
destinations that require substantial extra travel and expenses for attendees.

I attended the IEC meetings for several years on behalf of the US and saw many 
inefficiencies that added substantial costs to attendees without any benefits 
to the job at hand.

 Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 2:50:46 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


The discussion is becoming more general, but perhaps it needs to be. The way 
IEC works is that meetings are held where invitations have been given, and that 
can be almost anywhere in the world, except most of Africa. So what is hard to 
get to for you, is near home for others. In any case, you can influence 
61000-4-2 through the US TAG. I know that's not free of charge, so the other 
way is to discuss privately with any one or more of the six US experts on SC77B 
MT12. IEC has used Webex and GotoMeeting and now uses Zoom, but electronic 
communication is not good enough to completely substitute for face-to-face.

I applaud your pro bono activities. But to do all that and then jib at digging 
out the papers you cite as the solution to the ESD issues doesn't gel.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 22:18, doug emcesd.com wrote:
In the past I have spent much more, sometimes 5x that in one month. I would 
still do so if the standards bodies were interested in efficiently getting 
results. Many of them schedule meetings in expensive, hard to get to spots to 
wiggle a vacation out of their employers, from my observations. Not going to 
donate to that.

I do a lot to help the common good, but now I require the recipient to be 
mindful of efficiency. Most are, with some standards bodies the exception.

They hardly need meetings anymore. The meetings themselves could be done by 
Webex or GoToMeeting just as well.

A lot of what I do is develop tests and private standards that actually result 
in equipment that works in the intended environment.

For the common good, I have published more free information for no compensation 
than about anyone, about 300 articles on https://emcesd.com .

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 1:28:51 PM
To: doug emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


If the standard, or indeed the underlying technology, really needs to be 
improved, someone has to spend a dollar or two. I spend the GBP equivalent of 
about USD2000 a year on standards work I can't charge to clients (because it 
benefits all, not just one client). YMMV.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 21:13, doug emcesd.com wrote:
They were in the EOS/ESD Symposium records for years in the late 90s or early 
2000s. Some may also be in the EMC Symposium records as well. Look for authors 
names including myself, Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Robert Renninger, and  Hugh Hyatt. 
There were many other people involved that I don’t have the names handy. Hall, 
Hyatt, and possibly others are deceased now.

This effort went on for years with dozens of engineers. We had 5-20 GHz scopes 
back then that were insanely expensive. It is unlikely that a committee today 
could find additional useful information.

I have most of the original data and pictures somewhere in a box. It would take 
a day or two to find it, which I don’t have. Some of it may be on an old server 
I have packed away as well, but that too would also take a day to setup again, 
if it still works.

I can’t spend any time on it unless compensated as it would mess up my income 
stream, which need to cover substantial business expenses.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Jeff Keyzer <mailto:j...@mightyohm.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:58:52 AM
To: doug emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IE

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

In the past I have spent much more, sometimes 5x that in one month. I would 
still do so if the standards bodies were interested in efficiently getting 
results. Many of them schedule meetings in expensive, hard to get to spots to 
wiggle a vacation out of their employers, from my observations. Not going to 
donate to that.

I do a lot to help the common good, but now I require the recipient to be 
mindful of efficiency. Most are, with some standards bodies the exception.

They hardly need meetings anymore. The meetings themselves could be done by 
Webex or GoToMeeting just as well.

A lot of what I do is develop tests and private standards that actually result 
in equipment that works in the intended environment.

For the common good, I have published more free information for no compensation 
than about anyone, about 300 articles on https://emcesd.com .

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 1:28:51 PM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


If the standard, or indeed the underlying technology, really needs to be 
improved, someone has to spend a dollar or two. I spend the GBP equivalent of 
about USD2000 a year on standards work I can't charge to clients (because it 
benefits all, not just one client). YMMV.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 21:13, doug emcesd.com wrote:
They were in the EOS/ESD Symposium records for years in the late 90s or early 
2000s. Some may also be in the EMC Symposium records as well. Look for authors 
names including myself, Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Robert Renninger, and  Hugh Hyatt. 
There were many other people involved that I don’t have the names handy. Hall, 
Hyatt, and possibly others are deceased now.

This effort went on for years with dozens of engineers. We had 5-20 GHz scopes 
back then that were insanely expensive. It is unlikely that a committee today 
could find additional useful information.

I have most of the original data and pictures somewhere in a box. It would take 
a day or two to find it, which I don’t have. Some of it may be on an old server 
I have packed away as well, but that too would also take a day to setup again, 
if it still works.

I can’t spend any time on it unless compensated as it would mess up my income 
stream, which need to cover substantial business expenses.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Jeff Keyzer <mailto:j...@mightyohm.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:58:52 AM
To: doug emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Doug,

Are these papers online somewhere?  I looked at the ESDA site but I could not 
find an archive of papers.  Maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

Cheers,
Jeff


From: doug emcesd.com [mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 10:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The culprit 
is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM radiation from the 
simulator. The two factors dominate everything else. No need to duplicate 
previous work. Just read the papers on the results from the significant amount 
of research that was done, of which I was a part.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on equipment 
performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to test facilities, I 
would want to know that the variability between test facilities due to practice 
are not the dominating factor.  I would want to improve test procedure controls 
to where everyone does the test close enough to the same that if there is still 
unacceptable variability, then, and only then, do we look at t

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

They were in the EOS/ESD Symposium records for years in the late 90s or early 
2000s. Some may also be in the EMC Symposium records as well. Look for authors 
names including myself, Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Robert Renninger, and  Hugh Hyatt. 
There were many other people involved that I don’t have the names handy. Hall, 
Hyatt, and possibly others are deceased now.

This effort went on for years with dozens of engineers. We had 5-20 GHz scopes 
back then that were insanely expensive. It is unlikely that a committee today 
could find additional useful information.

I have most of the original data and pictures somewhere in a box. It would take 
a day or two to find it, which I don’t have. Some of it may be on an old server 
I have packed away as well, but that too would also take a day to setup again, 
if it still works.

I can’t spend any time on it unless compensated as it would mess up my income 
stream, which need to cover substantial business expenses.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Jeff Keyzer 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:58:52 AM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Subject: RE: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Doug,

Are these papers online somewhere?  I looked at the ESDA site but I could not 
find an archive of papers.  Maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

Cheers,
Jeff


From: doug emcesd.com [mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 10:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The culprit 
is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM radiation from the 
simulator. The two factors dominate everything else. No need to duplicate 
previous work. Just read the papers on the results from the significant amount 
of research that was done, of which I was a part.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on equipment 
performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to test facilities, I 
would want to know that the variability between test facilities due to practice 
are not the dominating factor.  I would want to improve test procedure controls 
to where everyone does the test close enough to the same that if there is still 
unacceptable variability, then, and only then, do we look at the test equipment.

In order to assess that, you would round-robin using the same model of gun.

Perhaps that is one of the many things to which Doug referred.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


____
From: "doug emcesd.com" mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:41:42 +
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Conversation: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi Montara,

There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written is not 
very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and determined what was 
necessary. We also did a lot of round robin testing. Probably most of what you 
want has been published in the 1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from 
the era. Look for authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 
61000-4-2), Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt.

Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members for 
various reasons that I do not consider valid.

Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Monrad Monsen mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of 
ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member o

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

Well said, Derek!

I am always amazed that EMC people worry about the measurement uncertainty of 
the coax cable that connects the target to the scope yet ignore factors, like 
lack of reasonable waveform definition, that have orders of magnitude more 
effect on the EUT.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: DEREK WALTON 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:51:15 AM
To: doug emcesd.com 
Cc: EMC-PSTC 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi All,

Well, this seems like here we go again. Not you Doug, just to be clear.

I have long since had a problem with the standards world where they focus on a 
“test” rather than addressing the REAL PROBLEM.

I’ll give $100 right now to the three people who can shuffle the carpet, 
discharge into an ESD Target and get the 61000-4-2 wave-shape. Seriously,, I’m 
waiting for the first lawsuit against someone that says a products good because 
it passes the “std test”.

To attempt to drive a standard to anally specify a naturally occurring random 
event is ludicrous. At best what should be done is a range of parameters 
specified and the simulator lie within them.

Why? Well who benefits when the standard is made more specific TO THE WRONG 
QUANTITY!!!???  Certainly not the consumer, who is the main reason we are doing 
this.

To quote a good friend Harry Hodes, we are trying once more to increase the 
accuracy of measuring Jelly with a micronometer.

If the standard needs improving, it would be a change to reflect more what 
happens in the real world not further restrict a clinical lab test.

Back to my coffee,

Derek.



On Oct 15, 2019, at 12:33 PM, doug emcesd.com<http://emcesd.com> 
mailto:d...@emcesd.com>> wrote:

A few years ago I evaluated eight ESD simulators over a year’s time at Bob 
Vermillon’s lab at the NASA Ames campus, 
https://esdrmv.com<https://esdrmv.com/>. All had current cal stickers and two 
of the eight produced very non-compliant waveforms! This is a good argument 
that calibration one a year does not guarantee much and that validation need to 
be performed every day.

There are several articles on ESD simulators on my website around the same time 
including this one: https://emcesd.com/tt2010/tt120210.htm

25% failure rate is not good and adds to the problem of repeatable testing.

I have spent nearly 30 years now investigating ESD and ESD simulators! My first 
foray into high power/high voltage was 58 years ago with a pair of 811a vacuum 
tubes generating 600 watts of power at 300 kHz which I fed to a resonant air 
core transformer to make a high powered Tesla coil (at age 14). I figure I 
played in a field of more than 10,000 Volts/meter for hours on end, 
occasionally letting the 811a tubes cool down before they melted. Brought the 
FCC to my house, a story for another time. Pieces of metal in the vicinity got 
hot from induction heating as well as an incandescent bulb held by the base 
would light up, not to mention fluorescent tubes nearby, with or without wires 
attached.

I have been fascinated by high voltage ever since.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org<http://dsmith.org/>

From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 9:27:08 AM
To: doug emcesd.com<http://emcesd.com/> 
mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


I take your point, but I wasn't proposing a full replication of the earlier 
work. A confirmatory paper or two, citing the earlier work and using modern 
measuring instruments, and indeed looking at the environment factor, would 
support the case for improving the standard.

By 'environment factor' I refer to the recent report that different results 
with the same equipment were obtained in an absorptive environment and in a 
screened room.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk/>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 17:18, doug emcesd.com<http://emcesd.com/> wrote:
That is true, but only after the author was familiar with all previous work. 
The work was comprehensive and it is hard to imagine a different result 
happening. Anyone who wants to restudy the subject will need a BIG budget, just 
for all the round robin testing that was done. Bell Labs contributed more than 
one million $ to the effort by my calculation, not to mention many other 
companies. I bet the total effort was ten million $!

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

A few years ago I evaluated eight ESD simulators over a year’s time at Bob 
Vermillon’s lab at the NASA Ames campus, https://esdrmv.com. All had current 
cal stickers and two of the eight produced very non-compliant waveforms! This 
is a good argument that calibration one a year does not guarantee much and that 
validation need to be performed every day.

There are several articles on ESD simulators on my website around the same time 
including this one: https://emcesd.com/tt2010/tt120210.htm

25% failure rate is not good and adds to the problem of repeatable testing.

I have spent nearly 30 years now investigating ESD and ESD simulators! My first 
foray into high power/high voltage was 58 years ago with a pair of 811a vacuum 
tubes generating 600 watts of power at 300 kHz which I fed to a resonant air 
core transformer to make a high powered Tesla coil (at age 14). I figure I 
played in a field of more than 10,000 Volts/meter for hours on end, 
occasionally letting the 811a tubes cool down before they melted. Brought the 
FCC to my house, a story for another time. Pieces of metal in the vicinity got 
hot from induction heating as well as an incandescent bulb held by the base 
would light up, not to mention fluorescent tubes nearby, with or without wires 
attached.

I have been fascinated by high voltage ever since.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 9:27:08 AM
To: doug emcesd.com ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


I take your point, but I wasn't proposing a full replication of the earlier 
work. A confirmatory paper or two, citing the earlier work and using modern 
measuring instruments, and indeed looking at the environment factor, would 
support the case for improving the standard.

By 'environment factor' I refer to the recent report that different results 
with the same equipment were obtained in an absorptive environment and in a 
screened room.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 17:18, doug emcesd.com wrote:
That is true, but only after the author was familiar with all previous work. 
The work was comprehensive and it is hard to imagine a different result 
happening. Anyone who wants to restudy the subject will need a BIG budget, just 
for all the round robin testing that was done. Bell Labs contributed more than 
one million $ to the effort by my calculation, not to mention many other 
companies. I bet the total effort was ten million $!

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 00:52
To: doug emcesd.com; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


No doubt it was very good work, but its OLD. One or two new papers would be a 
good thing.

Best wishesJohn Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions OnlyJ M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 06:39, doug emcesd.com wrote:
This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The culprit 
is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM radiation from the 
simulator. The two factors dominate everything else. No need to duplicate 
previous work. Just read the papers on the results from the significant amount 
of research that was done, of which I was a part.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor<mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on equipment 
performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to test facilities, I 
would want to know that the variability between test facilities due to practice 
are not the dominating factor.  I would want to improve test procedure controls 
to where everyone does the test close enough to the same that if there is still 
unacceptable variability, then, and only then, do we look at the test equipment.

In order to assess that, you would round-robin using the same model of gun.

Perhaps that is one of the many thin

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

I don’t think the price of an ESD would double, and even it it did, that is 
better than wasting tens of millions of dollars every year borne by all the 
manufacturers in unnecessary redesign and delay to market. There is no excuse 
for poor test equipment design.

It would not be hard for me, working with Jon Barth of Barth Electronics, to 
design an ESD simulator that would meet both the letter and intent (I was 
helping represent the US to the IEC committee on this for years) of IEC 
61000-4-2. And the simulator would be less expensive to use, have a longer 
life, and be useful for ESD troubleshooting as well (no gun currently on the 
market is good for troubleshooting, testing maybe, but not troubleshooting). I 
do not want to elaborate on this as it may compromise future IP and make it 
less likely that the design will come to be. Such a simulator would just wipe 
out all other current ESD simulators on the market, they would be obsolete 
immediately after introduction of this new simulator.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Merrill 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 5:44:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

At a previous employer ran into the issue as Doug describes, using different 
ESD Guns at different labs. Cal reports showed the ESD Guns with the worst 
correlation issues were at opposite ends of the permissible di/dt. Other than 
correlation issues and potential embarrassment of not having adequate margin to 
account for the variability. Not sure how big an issue it really is. Really 
depends upon how much it would end up costing to make the correlation better. 
Doubling the price of an ESD Gun wouldn't be worth it IMHO, however 10% 
increase would IMO be money well spent. YMMV.




On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:19 PM Monrad Monsen 
mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>> wrote:
Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD 
waveform verification (some call this “calibration”) because under today’s 
rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal 
content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results.  
Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any 
evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled 
parameter directly affects spectral content.  I would like to know if anyone 
has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when using different 
Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all calibrated simulators under 
today’s rules.

I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as local 
labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial preference is to 
not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy new ESD simulators, but 
perhaps this cost is warranted if there are actual wide variations in ESD test 
results depending on the brand of ESD simulator.

Thanks.

Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist
Phone: +1.303.272.9612
Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy
500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com


--
John Merrill
Compliance Manager
Hayward Industries, Inc
North Kingstown, RI 02851

 DISCLAIMER
The information contained in this e-mail message, and any attached file, may be 

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

That is true, but only after the author was familiar with all previous work. 
The work was comprehensive and it is hard to imagine a different result 
happening. Anyone who wants to restudy the subject will need a BIG budget, just 
for all the round robin testing that was done. Bell Labs contributed more than 
one million $ to the effort by my calculation, not to mention many other 
companies. I bet the total effort was ten million $!

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 00:52
To: doug emcesd.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)


No doubt it was very good work, but its OLD. One or two new papers would be a 
good thing.

Best wishesJohn Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions OnlyJ M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 06:39, doug emcesd.com wrote:
This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The culprit 
is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM radiation from the 
simulator. The two factors dominate everything else. No need to duplicate 
previous work. Just read the papers on the results from the significant amount 
of research that was done, of which I was a part.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor<mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on equipment 
performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to test facilities, I 
would want to know that the variability between test facilities due to practice 
are not the dominating factor.  I would want to improve test procedure controls 
to where everyone does the test close enough to the same that if there is still 
unacceptable variability, then, and only then, do we look at the test equipment.

In order to assess that, you would round-robin using the same model of gun.

Perhaps that is one of the many things to which Doug referred.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



________
From: "doug emcesd.com" <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:41:42 +
To: <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Conversation: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi Montara,

There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written is not 
very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and determined what was 
necessary. We also did a lot of round robin testing. Probably most of what you 
want has been published in the 1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from 
the era. Look for authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 
61000-4-2), Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt.

Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members for 
various reasons that I do not consider valid.

Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Monrad Monsen<mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of 
ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD 
waveform verification (some call this “calibration”) because under today’s 
rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal 
content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results.  
Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any 
evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that unc

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

It is not difficult to make a good ESD simulator. The old KeyTek mini-zap would 
meet the proposed di/dt spec.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: John Merrill 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 5:44:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

At a previous employer ran into the issue as Doug describes, using different 
ESD Guns at different labs. Cal reports showed the ESD Guns with the worst 
correlation issues were at opposite ends of the permissible di/dt. Other than 
correlation issues and potential embarrassment of not having adequate margin to 
account for the variability. Not sure how big an issue it really is. Really 
depends upon how much it would end up costing to make the correlation better. 
Doubling the price of an ESD Gun wouldn't be worth it IMHO, however 10% 
increase would IMO be money well spent. YMMV.




On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:19 PM Monrad Monsen 
mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>> wrote:
Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD 
waveform verification (some call this “calibration”) because under today’s 
rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal 
content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results.  
Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any 
evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled 
parameter directly affects spectral content.  I would like to know if anyone 
has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when using different 
Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all calibrated simulators under 
today’s rules.

I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as local 
labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial preference is to 
not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy new ESD simulators, but 
perhaps this cost is warranted if there are actual wide variations in ESD test 
results depending on the brand of ESD simulator.

Thanks.

Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist
Phone: +1.303.272.9612
Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy
500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com


--
John Merrill
Compliance Manager
Hayward Industries, Inc
North Kingstown, RI 02851

 DISCLAIMER
The information contained in this e-mail message, and any attached file, may be 
CONFIDENTIAL and is for the intended addressee only.  Distribution, 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: 

Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The culprit 
is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM radiation from the 
simulator. The two factors dominate everything else. No need to duplicate 
previous work. Just read the papers on the results from the significant amount 
of research that was done, of which I was a part.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on equipment 
performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to test facilities, I 
would want to know that the variability between test facilities due to practice 
are not the dominating factor.  I would want to improve test procedure controls 
to where everyone does the test close enough to the same that if there is still 
unacceptable variability, then, and only then, do we look at the test equipment.

In order to assess that, you would round-robin using the same model of gun.

Perhaps that is one of the many things to which Doug referred.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261




From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:41:42 +
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
Subject: Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi Montara,

There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written is not 
very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and determined what was 
necessary. We also did a lot of round robin testing. Probably most of what you 
want has been published in the 1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from 
the era. Look for authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 
61000-4-2), Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt.

Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members for 
various reasons that I do not consider valid.

Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Monrad Monsen 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of 
ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD 
waveform verification (some call this “calibration”) because under today’s 
rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal 
content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results.  
Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any 
evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled 
parameter directly affects spectral content.  I would like to know if anyone 
has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when using different 
Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all calibrated simulators under 
today’s rules.

I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as local 
labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial preference is to 
not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy new ESD simulators, but 
perhaps this cost is warranted if there are actual wide variations in ESD test 
results depending on the brand of ESD simulator.

Thanks.

Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist
Phone: +1.303.272.9612
Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy
500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021



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Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Montara,

There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written is not 
very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and determined what was 
necessary. We also did a lot of round robin testing. Probably most of what you 
want has been published in the 1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from 
the era. Look for authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 
61000-4-2), Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt.

Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members for 
various reasons that I do not consider valid.

Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Monrad Monsen 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of 
ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of information 
technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). There is a proposal 
that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD 
waveform verification (some call this “calibration”) because under today’s 
rules different simulators create different levels of high frequency signal 
content which some believe is the primary reason for different test results.  
Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any 
evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled 
parameter directly affects spectral content.  I would like to know if anyone 
has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when using different 
Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all calibrated simulators under 
today’s rules.

I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as local 
labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial preference is to 
not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy new ESD simulators, but 
perhaps this cost is warranted if there are actual wide variations in ESD test 
results depending on the brand of ESD simulator.

Thanks.

Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist
Phone: +1.303.272.9612
Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy
500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021


-


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[PSES] secure links to my articles

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Everyone,

I recently added a secure feature to my articles. You can take any link you 
have for my site's articles and just replace http with https and you will get a 
secure version of the article.

For instance here are three articles that show magnetic loops are not nearly as 
good for troubleshooting as everyone thinks because they do have significant 
E-field response that leads to strange behavior in the near field. Such loops 
only reject E-fields that are symmetric around the centerline of the probe. In 
these articles I show unshielded loops are more generally useful and it is 
extremely easy to determine if an E-field sensitivity is causing error, if you 
read all four articles it will be obvious.

  *   June 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 2, Parasitic 
Coupling
(Electric Field Shielding of Magnetic Loops is Not Always Effective!)
  *   July 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 3, Parasitic Coupling Between 
Unshielded Wire Loops
  *   August 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 4, Coupling to a 
PCB
(From Shielded and Unshielded Magnetic Loops)
The paper where I show directly E-field sensitivity is at:

  *   Signal and Noise Measurement Techniques Using Magnetic Field 
Probes (~600K)
 *   (1999 IEEE EMC Symposium paper)
I still maintain the unsecure version that works with browsers back to Netscape 
3 so the site can be visited on old lab machines. The secure version is 
probably not needed for my articles but companies may block the unsecure 
version and one search engine may not show you unsecure sites, hence the new 
https version of my site. Possibly more likely needing a secure connection may 
be my seminar announcements such as in: https://emcesd.com/bcsem_hfmeas.htm .

Doug
[SYMBOL]


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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[PSES] Some more stuff on my website, this time my DesignCon paper

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

Not sure if I posted these links to this forum yet, but in case not, here they 
are:

I keep adding more to my website as time goes on. There are about 300 papers 
and articles I have written that are posted there at this point along with a 
lot of other information. The site is at:

http://emcesd.com or https://emcesd.com

Try paging through the site, it could keep you occupied or hours! One visitor 
remarked: "Every time I browse your site, I never get any work done. I spend 
hours on it and get in trouble."

Two links of interest may be:

My 2019 DesignCon paper: http://emcesd.com/tt2019/tt061719.htm
The paper is also linked from the picture at the bottom of the home page 
http://emcesd.com
The topic is predicting failures from small environmental stresses we never 
test for in official testing.


On a more personal note, you may be interested in the link that shows I am not 
just a geek:
http://emcesd.com/pdf/Running_With_the_Devil.pdf
I have been running almost 100 miles per month of late and running three or 
four time per week most all of my adult life. The above link describes an 
obstacle course run I was in (my time beat 82% of the 20-25 age group when I 
was 67 at the time). I am probably the most energetic 72 year old in Boulder 
City, NV! My energy comes through in everything I do at work and my classes as 
well.

Doug
[SYMBOL]


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: [PSES] Product Compliance Virtual chapter - June Presentation– Product Safety and the new IoT by Bob Griffin

[doug emcesd.com]

I think he was kidding as engineers at the time derided Gore’s statement.

Probably AT Bell Labs and the military are most responsible for developing 
the Internet, having watched the process myself at Bell Labs. In the 70s, we 
were using things like email and I was using networks that became the Internet 
to do my work. Bell Labs, the military, and UC Berkeley had close relationships 
back then.

The Internet grew up on Unix from Bell Labs 
(https://www.bell-labs.com/var/articles/invention-unix/) and the C programming 
language (http://www.devtopics.com/programming-language-inventors/)

No Bell Labs -> no C -> no Unix -> no Internet today. No one had even heard of 
the name “Gore” back then. I believe he was in divinity school at the time. 
Gore, to my knowledge never had any education or experience in engineering.

BTW, Internet is a proper noun and should always use a capital I!

All this happened 50 years ago when I was a young engineer at Bell Labs and I 
remember it like yesterday. Much of the technology we use today in electrical 
engineering had its origins in Bell Labs and the military (the two were highly 
connected at the time).

A few examples of Bell Labs technology:

1) Circuit simulation: the same simulator we use now (Spice by Larry Nagel who 
then joined Bell Labs where it was further developed and internally called 
Advice). I was the first at Bell Labs to use it to design analog integrated 
circuits and a poly cell digital IC.

2) Cellular phone technology

3) linear opto-isolators

4) Solid state circuits (transistors, ICs)

And too many more to list here.

I feel fortunate to have been at Bell Labs when all of this was happening and 
to have been given the freedom there to explore whatever I wanted to much of 
the time. Eventually my experience there led to my website and its nearly 300 
papers and articles (http://emcesd.com or https://emcesd.com whichever you 
like).

The soul of Bell Labs went in to be reborn in Silicon Valley, although it is 
slowly dying there. Silicon Valley is not nearly as exciting and innovative as 
it used to be except in a few fields like medical robots and automotive 
technology.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: David Lutton 
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 02:40
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Product Compliance Virtual chapter - June Presentation– 
Product Safety and the new IoT by Bob Griffin

Al Gore did not invent the internet, It is attributed to Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn 
who stated regarding Al Gore "No one in public life has been more 
intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet 
than the Vice President."

See email Al Gore and the Internet By Robert Kahn and Vinton 
Cerf

David Lutton

From: Grasso, Charles [mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com]
Sent: 19 June 2019 22:26
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Product Compliance Virtual chapter - June Presentation– 
Product Safety and the new IoT by Bob Griffin

What a great idea!!

Thanks!

Charles Grasso
W: 303-706-5467

From: Mariel Acosta-geraldino [mailto:mar...@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 12:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Product Compliance Virtual chapter - June Presentation– Product 
Safety and the new IoT by Bob Griffin


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent 
by:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
If you have been thinking about joining one of the virtual chapter meetings, 
JuneIS the perfect month to do so. We are inviting you to our June 
presentation, where Bob Griffin will be covering 'Product Safety and the new 
IoT'.

Join us on Thu June 20th  at 12 noon, New York time. If you have any questions, 
please reach out to us 
atvirtualchapter.p...@gmail.com.
Product Compliance Virtual chapter –Product Safety and the new IoT
Thursday, Jun 20, 2019 12:00 pm | | (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)
Meeting number: 595 736 350
Password: June_meeting
Webex link:
https://ieeemeetings.webex.com/ieeemeetings/j.php?MTID=m40144ed12ea7a0742388bbdbe4b7e223

Video address:
dial595736...@ieeemeetings.webex.com
You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.
Audio connection: +1 210 606 9466 US Toll, +1 866 282 7366 US Toll Free
Access code: 595 736 350

Global call-in numbers: 
https://ieeemeetings.webex.com/cmp3300/webcomponents/widget/globalcallin/globalcallin.do?siteurl=ieeemeetings=MC=672496067=1
If you have any questions, please reach out to us 
atvirtualchapter.p...@gmail.com.

Title -Product Safety and the New IoT
Abstract - The IoT (Internet of Things) has been around since Al Gore 

[PSES] Accumulating damage causing field failures

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Everyone,

Last January I delivered a paper at DesignCon on small impulse events causing 
accumulating damage eventually resulting in system failure.

For instance, every time a person touches a conductive object there is a small 
ESD event. In my paper I described a case where an ESD event of about a few % 
of the amplitude we usually test to causing damage after 10,000 tiny zaps, 
about 3 months in field use!

I just posted the paper on my website.

The paper is at the bottom of the page at https://emcesd.com

The direct link is:
https://emcesd.com/tt2019/tt061719.htm

Take a look at the other nearly 300 articles and papers on the site as well as 
podcasts and my classes.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org


-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

[doug emcesd.com]

 clearly defining 
requirements, as well as including pre-checks for quality.

Thanks,

David Schaefer



From: doug emcesd.com [mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 8:47 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

Hi Ed and the group,

Accredited and not, most test labs I have dealt with have made significant 
errors in testing. When I see these and and say “You are not performing the 
test correctly.” There is always pushback and I have never lost the argument.

I have also picked up a few clients that have been the victim of test lab 
errors and have seen lots of test problems!

I also have a problem with some calibration labs for poor quality work.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org<mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org


From: Edward Price mailto:e...@jwjelp.com>>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 16:24
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

John:


I don’t see how a test house can “impose” compliance.
I thought all they could do was perform testing, and by looking at the results 
of the testing, declare compliance.

You also ask “how can a company know that the result is reliable?”
Isn’t that the entire justification for accreditation of a test lab by a 3rd 
party? I have had “expert customers” where they were so involved in the 
compliance process that they had their own QA representative sit in my lab and 
check off each step of a detailed, written test procedure as each step was 
started and completed. OTOH, a majority of my customers would say something 
like “call us when you know if we have passed.” When a lab customer is not 
qualified to determine the experience and capabilities of a test lab, the 
customer can increase his chances of reliable results by using a test lab that 
has had their facilities, people, procedures and support processes reviewed by 
an organization that specializes in the review of test labs.

In the example that started all this, I assumed the test lab was an accredited 
facility. As the test lab’s product proved to be unreliable, there was a 
breakdown of the test lab’s operations. That breakdown was supposed to have 
been made vanishingly improbable by the blessing of that test lab by an 
accreditation authority. I suppose that would mean that the accreditation 
authority’s process thus also broke down. I guess we then have to question the 
accreditation accreditors who accredited the test lab accreditors.

Sorry for making the chain of accreditation sound comical. I suppose you know a 
lot more than me about the efficacy of 3rd party oversight in ensuring reliable 
results. Can you elaborate just a bit about the amount the reliability should 
increase when a customer chooses an accredited test lab over an unaccredited 
test lab (assuming that was possible if the standard didn’t make accredited 
test labs a pre-condition)? Does the additional oversight layer (the 
accreditation) increase performance reliability by perhaps 1 or 2 Sigmas or 
some percentage?

Thanks!


Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 1:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment


I doubt anyone would disagree with that. But if a company allows a test house 
to impose compliance, how can it know that the result is reliable?

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-04-19 21:09, Grasso, Charles wrote:
With all due respect I made a different text section:

“Ultimately, I sold reliable answers..”  (underline added by me)

That is all I am looking for as a customer.

Thanks!

Charles Grasso
W: 303-706-5467

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail

Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Ed and the group,

Accredited and not, most test labs I have dealt with have made significant 
errors in testing. When I see these and and say “You are not performing the 
test correctly.” There is always pushback and I have never lost the argument.

I have also picked up a few clients that have been the victim of test lab 
errors and have seen lots of test problems!

I also have a problem with some calibration labs for poor quality work.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org


From: Edward Price 
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 16:24
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment

John:


I don’t see how a test house can “impose” compliance.
I thought all they could do was perform testing, and by looking at the results 
of the testing, declare compliance.

You also ask “how can a company know that the result is reliable?”
Isn’t that the entire justification for accreditation of a test lab by a 3rd 
party? I have had “expert customers” where they were so involved in the 
compliance process that they had their own QA representative sit in my lab and 
check off each step of a detailed, written test procedure as each step was 
started and completed. OTOH, a majority of my customers would say something 
like “call us when you know if we have passed.” When a lab customer is not 
qualified to determine the experience and capabilities of a test lab, the 
customer can increase his chances of reliable results by using a test lab that 
has had their facilities, people, procedures and support processes reviewed by 
an organization that specializes in the review of test labs.

In the example that started all this, I assumed the test lab was an accredited 
facility. As the test lab’s product proved to be unreliable, there was a 
breakdown of the test lab’s operations. That breakdown was supposed to have 
been made vanishingly improbable by the blessing of that test lab by an 
accreditation authority. I suppose that would mean that the accreditation 
authority’s process thus also broke down. I guess we then have to question the 
accreditation accreditors who accredited the test lab accreditors.

Sorry for making the chain of accreditation sound comical. I suppose you know a 
lot more than me about the efficacy of 3rd party oversight in ensuring reliable 
results. Can you elaborate just a bit about the amount the reliability should 
increase when a customer chooses an accredited test lab over an unaccredited 
test lab (assuming that was possible if the standard didn’t make accredited 
test labs a pre-condition)? Does the additional oversight layer (the 
accreditation) increase performance reliability by perhaps 1 or 2 Sigmas or 
some percentage?

Thanks!


Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 1:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question re: Measuring a signal in a noisy environment


I doubt anyone would disagree with that. But if a company allows a test house 
to impose compliance, how can it know that the result is reliable?

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-04-19 21:09, Grasso, Charles wrote:
With all due respect I made a different text section:

“Ultimately, I sold reliable answers..”  (underline added by me)

That is all I am looking for as a customer.

Thanks!

Charles Grasso
W: 303-706-5467

-


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[PSES] shielded magnetic loops don't work anything like what people think

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi All,

A few years ago, I started to generate some data for a tutorial on shielded 
magnetic field loops for new engineers. As happens most of the time with my 
research on most topics, I found out most of what I and everyone thought about 
shielded magnetic field loops was wrong. The electric field shielding only 
works for a special case in the far field where the E-field is symmetric around 
the centerline of the probe. Even then, the shielding does not work in the near 
field. Here are three of my articles and a paper on the subject:


  *   June 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 2, Parasitic 
Coupling
(Electric Field Shielding of Magnetic Loops is Not Always Effective!)
  *   July 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 3, Parasitic Coupling Between 
Unshielded Wire Loops
  *   August 2008, The Square Shielded Loop - Part 4, Coupling to a 
PCB
(From Shielded and Unshielded Magnetic Loops)
  *   Signal and Noise Measurement Techniques Using Magnetic Field 
Probes (~600K)
 *   (1999 IEEE EMC Symposium paper)
In the near field, the shield generates a parasitic resonance that is not good. 
Unshielded loops do not have this problem. It is instantaneous to check for any 
problems E-fields may cause with unshielded loops, and know the amount of the 
effect if there is any.

Paperclip loop 1
Shielded loop  0

I love to cover topics like this in my classes and on my website that run 
counter to common knowledge. It is a lot of fun for me.

I don't think of myself as an expert on anything but a student of everything 
(things like all aspects of engineering, thermodynamics [that is how at 72 I 
can run miles in the summer desert heat while everyone else is dying of the 
heat], engine lubrication, medicine, etc.).

Doug
[SYMBOL]


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Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[doug emcesd.com]

Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.

We tested to 20+ kV for commercial products in the 1970s when I was at Bell 
Labs using a circuit similar to the one posted in this thread. I remember that 
lab built simulator and used it many times then.

We also had home built lightning simulators we used long before the IEC or 
others got into that act for our own internal lightning standards. The Bell 
System was dealing with lightning well over a hundred years ago, probably 
before anyone else except possibly 1800s telegraph companies. That is too far 
back for me.

Full scale ESD testing was certainly around at these high voltages by the time 
Touch Tone phones appeared. It was this research at Bell Labs that lead to the 
HBM model of ESD. We discovered that that model accurately predicted field hard 
failures of Touch Tone phones. Current HMM simulators are much more stress than 
our research at Bell Labs showed was necessary, at least for electronic 
circuits at the time, which were very susceptible.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 09:32
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Doug may be correct, but that 25 kV sounds like MIL-STD-331, and that is a test 
of electro-explosive devices, particularly the fuses that light them, so there 
the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.

The problem is, my copies only go back to –331B dated 1989, and from there to 
the present day it is 500 pF and 500 ohms, and none of the parasitic control in 
the drawing in this post. I was unsuccessful in going back further.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:17:26 +
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s, maybe 
earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very early 
design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Greeting colleagues,

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be 
something recent or from many years ago.

[cid:364284_574616]

Thank-you,

Richard Georgerian
Applications Engineer

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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For help, send mail to the list administrator

Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Ken,

You had made the note that contact discharge was used in the MIL test, but the 
circuit presented and all stds back then were only air discharge that I am 
aware of.

“so there the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.”

I may be misinterpreting what you mean by contact discharge. I am thinking of 
the modern type using a vacuum relay.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:22
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Doug,

I don’t understand this:

“Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.”

MIL-STD-331B prefers air discharge when the discharge target can be attained 
(like a connector pin). If the target cannot be acquired via air discharge, 
then what they call a “salient” can be attached to the target that makes direct 
contact with the ESD gun tip.  The only requirement on the salient is that it 
itself is immune to ESD damage and it doesn't compromise the ability of the gun 
to deliver the required percentage of total stored potential (in gun charging 
cap) to specified loads.

Only a 100 MHz BW o’scope is required; this requirement is not about risetime; 
only about total power delivered.

BTW, MIL-STD-331B is dated 1989; it supersedes MIL-STD-1399A, dated 1976. I 
don’t have “A”, but it includes ESD.   I don’t know the date of original 
release, and whether that includes ESD.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 18:23:18 +
To: Ken Javor , "emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org" 

Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.

We tested to 20+ kV for commercial products in the 1970s when I was at Bell 
Labs using a circuit similar to the one posted in this thread. I remember that 
lab built simulator and used it many times then.

We also had home built lightning simulators we used long before the IEC or 
others got into that act for our own internal lightning standards. The Bell 
System was dealing with lightning well over a hundred years ago, probably 
before anyone else except possibly 1800s telegraph companies. That is too far 
back for me.

Full scale ESD testing was certainly around at these high voltages by the time 
Touch Tone phones appeared. It was this research at Bell Labs that lead to the 
HBM model of ESD. We discovered that that model accurately predicted field hard 
failures of Touch Tone phones. Current HMM simulators are much more stress than 
our research at Bell Labs showed was necessary, at least for electronic 
circuits at the time, which were very susceptible.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 09:32
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Doug may be correct, but that 25 kV sounds like MIL-STD-331, and that is a test 
of electro-explosive devices, particularly the fuses that light them, so there 
the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.

The problem is, my copies only go back to –331B dated 1989, and from there to 
the present day it is 500 pF and 500 ohms, and none of the parasitic control in 
the drawing in this post. I was unsuccessful in going back further.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


____
From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:17:26 +
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s, maybe 
earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very early 
design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Greeting colleagues,

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, 

Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[doug emcesd.com]

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s, maybe 
earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very early 
design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Greeting colleagues,

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be 
something recent or from many years ago.

[cid:image001.png@01D4C702.4E9E3480]

Thank-you,

Richard Georgerian
Applications Engineer

-


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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