Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[paul dove via EV]

My statement was how is this different than other manufacturers? 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, March 18, 2021, 2:51 PM, -Phil-  wrote:

I currently own 3 Teslas, and have owned close to 20 since my first brand-new 
Model S in 2015.  All cars since the 2015 have been salvage.   To be clear, I 
love Tesla, their mission, their engineering, and their cars.  They have a lot 
of work to do on customer satisfaction, quality control, and most definitely 
service and how they treat customers.

Sorry Paul, but you are misinformed here.  Having worked on literally hundreds 
of cars with my own hands and thousands of other salvage cars I can assure you 
that Tesla takes many steps to prevent you from restoring a salvage vehicle.  
First off they refuse to sell you parts without a VIN.  Until 2019 their 
official policy was to not sell parts for "unsupported" cars, which means any 
car that's salvaged or grey market (such as a US car imported to another 
country where Tesla doesn't sell cars).  Since then, the official policy is 
they WILL sell parts, but still require a VIN.  However many service centers 
apparently "didn't get the memo" (literally) and still refuse parts sales.  On 
top of this, any part that is "restricted" will not be sold to ANY customer, 
even of a supported car.  This includes almost any high-voltage component, 
airbags, most ECUs, etc.
I linked Tesla's official current policy on unsupported vehicles in my previous 
email, but clearly you didn't bother to read it.  So here are the parts you 
should have at least read before replying:     

"NOTE: Once a vehicle is marked as being unsupported or having a salvaged 
title, Supercharging and/or fast charging through 3rd party chargers is 
permanently disabled."
"NOTE: Once a vehicle is marked as being unsupported/having a salvaged title, 
the “unsupported” designation can not be changed."
"If the vehicle has passed the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety 
Inspection:""Any Tesla limited warranties and extended service agreements for 
the vehicle remain void."
"Supercharging and/or “fast charging” through 3rd party chargers remains 
disabled."
"The vehicle remains classified as an “unsupported vehicle.”"
Please before commenting, take the time to read everything.  Again, Here is the 
link to their 
policy:"https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf;
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 9:34 AM paul dove  wrote:

 Do you own a Tesla? It doesn't sound like it by this rant.
They don't prevent you from fixing salvaged vehicle. The only prevent using the 
Supercharger network.They allow it if you pass their inspection. You can charge 
a Tesla from other sources.
My insurance rates are not high. Someone backed into my car in a parking lot 
and the Tesla 
service center told me to go to any bodyshop to get it repaired.
I took it to an authorized shop that meets all the Tesla requirements but I 
didn't have to.Albeit it took three week and they replaced almost everything on 
the front end so it was expensive.It took three weeks but it was over Christmas 
so I suspect that contributed to the time.
I don't think you will find any difference in how Mercedes, BMW or Audi handle 
these issues.I know a guy who bought a Smart car with no battery. There was 
nothing wrong with the car.It had not been wrecked. Mercedes would not even 
sell him a battery.
I have a friend who does restomods on Corvettes. They have similar 
restrictions. He can get 
software to flash the ECUs because he is a shop and not an individual but it 
costs him $200per model year. 

I don't know of any instance where Tesla took away something that was 
legitimately purchased.I don't believe they salvage more Teslas than they do 
any other car on the road.
In fact, the older the car the more likely they salvage because it costs more 
than the car is worth.

    On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 4:42:08 PM CDT, via EV  
wrote:  

 Early on in the Model S program (Gen 1 cars) they had a fire at a
supercharger in Norway because an official Tesla Tech replaced the HV
junction box (located under the rear seat) and didn't tighten the
connections properly.

On the Gen2 cars that came out in late 2014, they added a whole bunch of
safety stuff to check for such things.  Temperature sensors, Voltage drop
sensing, etc.  Because it's vitally important to Tesla's mission to ensure
there are no fires, which of course are blown WAY out of proportion by the
media, they pulled out all the stops on both engineering and legal to
prevent this any way they could.  Yeah, I'm not faulting Tesla for wanting
to mitigate risk, but not allowing it after inspection is harming them.
Their general policy on the secondary market is really bad, this has had
the knock-on effect of making Teslas hard to insure, and the rates just
keep on climbing.

When you wreck a car, and the insurance company totals it, they depend on
the secondary market to get a lot of the cost back.  Tesla's 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Willie via EV]

On 3/18/21 5:06 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

It occurs to me that:



= Out of warranty service is extremely expensive, often better to replace


I have a Tesla that's been out of warranty for five years or so.  I've 
found your observation to be incorrect.  Tesla has pledged to not make 
service a profit center as it is with franchised dealers.  My experience 
is that they are fulfilling their pledge.  My out of warranty car has 
needed only minor repair and has not yet needed a battery but I expect 
it to cost around $10k.  Which I consider reasonable for a 85kwh battery.


The story I get from Leaf friends is just the opposite.  Any dealer Leaf 
work is likely to be $3k+.  Which is preceded by an up front $300 
"evaluation fee".



= Online resources tend to talk about how satisfying they are


You doubt the veracity of those with experience.



2. Windows is like most other production EVs.


Lacking experience, I am unwilling to make any comments on any microsoft 
product.


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

It occurs to me that:

1. Apple is like Tesla.  

= Expensive
= Goes fast and far
= Gorgeous, polished, elegant, smoothly integrated hardware & software
= Only manufacturer-approved hardware and software add-ons are possible
= Everything just works, almost flawlessly, including official add-ons
= Most users need and use pricey official repair and upgrade depots
= Out of warranty service is extremely expensive, often better to replace
= Online resources tend to talk about how satisfying they are

2. Windows is like most other production EVs.

= Cheaper (but you may pay with your privacy and/or resale value)
= Goes fast enough and far enough
= Somewhat integrated hardware and software but you may get junkware
= You can get HW/SW add-ons on Ebay but you may need help installing
= Can DIY repairs if you have some background and search engine skills
= Out of warranty service is available at some neighborhood shops
= Online resources tend toward tech tips

3. Linux and BSD are like conversions.

= Free and open source software; can use dumpster / salvage hardware 
= Goes as fast and as far as you design it to
= You build it yourself 
= Add ons are cheap or free but not all work and you need online help
= Must fix it yourself, better know what you're doing
= Out of warranty service is up to you
= Online resources are about 100% technical help

I've generalized quite a bit above, so please forgive me.  However, I think 
that the parallels are striking.  

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I suspect that if you love Apple devices 
and turn up your nose at clunkier but much more open Windows / Android / 
Linux gedgets, you probably gravitate toward Tesla over Leaf, Bolt, or Kona, 
to say nothing of conversions.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 There is a war between the rich and poor,
 A war between the man and the woman.
 There is a war between the left and right,
 A war between the black and white,
 A war between the odd and the even.
 There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
 And the ones who say there isn't.
 Why don't you come on back to the war, pick up your tiny burden.
 Why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get even.
 
-- Leonard Cohen
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Well, that sucks. However, it you give them the right (through 
agreements that most people don't read) to change your configuration, as 
opposed to simply disabling something on their end, then it seems like 
you have little room to argue. And I see where they're coming from. But 
it's really unfair.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "(-Phil-)" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 18-Mar-21 12:32:11 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

In order to block a Tesla from accessing their supercharger network, 
they have to connect to the car over the air and go into it's stored 
configuration and remove the supercharging option.   So the analogy 
would be if you cancelled your Netflix account, and Netflix actually 
hacked into your PC and not only blocked Netflix, but also blocked HBO 
Go and Disney Plus.   So yeah, maybe you signed an agreement with 
Netflix authorizing them to access your PC is you ever terminated your 
account, but that would be pretty hard to rationalize if they were 
blocking other services.  But wait, It's even worse than this; Say you 
sell your PC to someone else, and now Netflix hacks into it then, is 
that legal?   What if you die and someone inherits your PC?  Are they 
also automatically allowing Netflix to hack it?  There's no way this 
would stand up to any legal challenge!


So after an insurance company takes possession of your salvage Tesla, 
then they sell it to an unrelated 3rd party.  Then Tesla discovers this 
and accesses the car over the cell network and removes the option.  
Again; They aren't blocking the car on the charging network side, they 
are REMOVING the capability from the car.  It won't charge not only on 
Tesla's network, but ANY fast charging network!!!   Tell me that's not 
immoral, if not outright criminal.


1030 may apply because Tesla accessed the new owner's car without any 
permission and took away a function with substantial effect to the 
car's utility and value.



On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 7:36 AM Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

Phil, can you elaborate on your statement below, please ? Certainly, I
love what tesla has done to influence the world to like EVs.

But I'm not clear on what you mean by "altering your car without
permission." I have not read the purchase agreement, but I would 
assume

it contains something allowing them to "disable use of superchargers
solely at their discretion" with disagreement settled by moderators 
(the

usual anti consumer process). And, with a clause waiving tesla of any
responsibility to a subsequent owner. While I think agreements like 
this

stink, how does title 1030 apply ?

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "(-Phil-) via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "(-Phil-)" 
Sent: 17-Mar-21 2:41:25 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

>
>But the main thing here is Tesla is not just blocking cars on their 
network, they are altering YOUR car without permission.  ... They 
absolutely have no agreement with the new owner, and therefore it 
would be super easy for a US attorney to prosecute them under the 
title 1030 Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

>

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I currently own 3 Teslas, and have owned close to 20 since my first
brand-new Model S in 2015.  All cars since the 2015 have been salvage.   To
be clear, I love Tesla, their mission, their engineering, and their cars.
They have a lot of work to do on customer satisfaction, quality control,
and most definitely service and how they treat customers.

Sorry Paul, but you are misinformed here.  Having worked on literally
hundreds of cars with my own hands and thousands of other salvage cars I
can assure you that Tesla takes many steps to prevent you from restoring a
salvage vehicle.  First off they refuse to sell you parts without a VIN.
Until 2019 their official policy was to not sell parts for "unsupported"
cars, which means any car that's salvaged or grey market (such as a US car
imported to another country where Tesla doesn't sell cars).  Since then,
the official policy is they WILL sell parts, but still require a VIN.
However many service centers apparently "didn't get the memo" (literally)
and still refuse parts sales.  On top of this, any part that is
"restricted" will not be sold to ANY customer, even of a supported car.
This includes almost any high-voltage component, airbags, most ECUs, etc.

I linked Tesla's official current policy on unsupported vehicles in my
previous email, but clearly you didn't bother to read it.  So here are the
parts you should have at least read before replying:

"NOTE: Once a vehicle is marked as being unsupported or having a salvaged
title, Supercharging and/or fast charging through 3rd party chargers is
permanently disabled."

"NOTE: Once a vehicle is marked as being unsupported/having a salvaged
title, the “unsupported” designation can not be changed."

"If the vehicle has passed the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety
Inspection:"
"Any Tesla limited warranties and extended service agreements for the
vehicle remain void."
"Supercharging and/or “fast charging” through 3rd party chargers remains
disabled."
"The vehicle remains classified as an “unsupported vehicle.”"

Please before commenting, take the time to read everything.  Again, Here is
the link to their policy:
"
https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf
"

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 9:34 AM paul dove  wrote:

>  Do you own a Tesla? It doesn't sound like it by this rant.
> They don't prevent you from fixing salvaged vehicle. The only prevent
> using the Supercharger network.They allow it if you pass their inspection.
> You can charge a Tesla from other sources.
> My insurance rates are not high. Someone backed into my car in a parking
> lot and the Tesla
> service center told me to go to any bodyshop to get it repaired.
> I took it to an authorized shop that meets all the Tesla requirements but
> I didn't have to.Albeit it took three week and they replaced almost
> everything on the front end so it was expensive.It took three weeks but it
> was over Christmas so I suspect that contributed to the time.
> I don't think you will find any difference in how Mercedes, BMW or Audi
> handle these issues.I know a guy who bought a Smart car with no battery.
> There was nothing wrong with the car.It had not been wrecked. Mercedes
> would not even sell him a battery.
> I have a friend who does restomods on Corvettes. They have similar
> restrictions. He can get
> software to flash the ECUs because he is a shop and not an individual but
> it costs him $200per model year.
>
> I don't know of any instance where Tesla took away something that was
> legitimately purchased.I don't believe they salvage more Teslas than they
> do any other car on the road.
> In fact, the older the car the more likely they salvage because it costs
> more than the car is worth.
>
> On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 4:42:08 PM CDT, via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  Early on in the Model S program (Gen 1 cars) they had a fire at a
> supercharger in Norway because an official Tesla Tech replaced the HV
> junction box (located under the rear seat) and didn't tighten the
> connections properly.
>
> On the Gen2 cars that came out in late 2014, they added a whole bunch of
> safety stuff to check for such things.  Temperature sensors, Voltage drop
> sensing, etc.  Because it's vitally important to Tesla's mission to ensure
> there are no fires, which of course are blown WAY out of proportion by the
> media, they pulled out all the stops on both engineering and legal to
> prevent this any way they could.  Yeah, I'm not faulting Tesla for wanting
> to mitigate risk, but not allowing it after inspection is harming them.
> Their general policy on the secondary market is really bad, this has had
> the knock-on effect of making Teslas hard to insure, and the rates just
> keep on climbing.
>
> When you wreck a car, and the insurance company totals it, they depend on
> the secondary market to get a lot of the cost back.  Tesla's policies have
> reduced this payback, and in addition, it's so difficult to repair a Tesla
> 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

In order to block a Tesla from accessing their supercharger network, they
have to connect to the car over the air and go into it's stored
configuration and remove the supercharging option.   So the analogy would
be if you cancelled your Netflix account, and Netflix actually hacked into
your PC and not only blocked Netflix, but also blocked HBO Go and Disney
Plus.   So yeah, maybe you signed an agreement with Netflix authorizing
them to access your PC is you ever terminated your account, but that would
be pretty hard to rationalize if they were blocking other services.  But
wait, It's even worse than this; Say you sell your PC to someone else, and
now Netflix hacks into it then, is that legal?   What if you die and
someone inherits your PC?  Are they also automatically allowing Netflix to
hack it?  There's no way this would stand up to any legal challenge!

So after an insurance company takes possession of your salvage Tesla, then
they sell it to an unrelated 3rd party.  Then Tesla discovers this and
accesses the car over the cell network and removes the option.  Again; They
aren't blocking the car on the charging network side, they are REMOVING the
capability from the car.  It won't charge not only on Tesla's network, but
ANY fast charging network!!!   Tell me that's not immoral, if not outright
criminal.

1030 may apply because Tesla accessed the new owner's car without any
permission and took away a function with substantial effect to the car's
utility and value.


On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 7:36 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Phil, can you elaborate on your statement below, please ? Certainly, I
> love what tesla has done to influence the world to like EVs.
>
> But I'm not clear on what you mean by "altering your car without
> permission." I have not read the purchase agreement, but I would assume
> it contains something allowing them to "disable use of superchargers
> solely at their discretion" with disagreement settled by moderators (the
> usual anti consumer process). And, with a clause waiving tesla of any
> responsibility to a subsequent owner. While I think agreements like this
> stink, how does title 1030 apply ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "(-Phil-) via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "(-Phil-)" 
> Sent: 17-Mar-21 2:41:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV
>
> >
> >But the main thing here is Tesla is not just blocking cars on their
> network, they are altering YOUR car without permission.  ... They
> absolutely have no agreement with the new owner, and therefore it would be
> super easy for a US attorney to prosecute them under the title 1030
> Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[paul dove via EV]

 Do you own a Tesla? It doesn't sound like it by this rant.
They don't prevent you from fixing salvaged vehicle. The only prevent using the 
Supercharger network.They allow it if you pass their inspection. You can charge 
a Tesla from other sources.
My insurance rates are not high. Someone backed into my car in a parking lot 
and the Tesla 
service center told me to go to any bodyshop to get it repaired.
I took it to an authorized shop that meets all the Tesla requirements but I 
didn't have to.Albeit it took three week and they replaced almost everything on 
the front end so it was expensive.It took three weeks but it was over Christmas 
so I suspect that contributed to the time.
I don't think you will find any difference in how Mercedes, BMW or Audi handle 
these issues.I know a guy who bought a Smart car with no battery. There was 
nothing wrong with the car.It had not been wrecked. Mercedes would not even 
sell him a battery.
I have a friend who does restomods on Corvettes. They have similar 
restrictions. He can get 
software to flash the ECUs because he is a shop and not an individual but it 
costs him $200per model year. 

I don't know of any instance where Tesla took away something that was 
legitimately purchased.I don't believe they salvage more Teslas than they do 
any other car on the road.
In fact, the older the car the more likely they salvage because it costs more 
than the car is worth.

On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, 4:42:08 PM CDT, via EV  
wrote:  
 
 Early on in the Model S program (Gen 1 cars) they had a fire at a
supercharger in Norway because an official Tesla Tech replaced the HV
junction box (located under the rear seat) and didn't tighten the
connections properly.

On the Gen2 cars that came out in late 2014, they added a whole bunch of
safety stuff to check for such things.  Temperature sensors, Voltage drop
sensing, etc.  Because it's vitally important to Tesla's mission to ensure
there are no fires, which of course are blown WAY out of proportion by the
media, they pulled out all the stops on both engineering and legal to
prevent this any way they could.  Yeah, I'm not faulting Tesla for wanting
to mitigate risk, but not allowing it after inspection is harming them.
Their general policy on the secondary market is really bad, this has had
the knock-on effect of making Teslas hard to insure, and the rates just
keep on climbing.

When you wreck a car, and the insurance company totals it, they depend on
the secondary market to get a lot of the cost back.  Tesla's policies have
reduced this payback, and in addition, it's so difficult to repair a Tesla
expediently because the parts availability is so restricted and even for
"authorized" shops, there are LONG delays getting the parts, so the ins co
will total it rather than pay for months of rental cars and uncertain
repair outcome.  Of course that means many more cars are getting sent to
salvage than should be.  Many are super simple repairs that don't even
touch the HV systems.

But the main thing here is Tesla is not just blocking cars on their
network, they are altering YOUR car without permission.  Look at it this
way, what would you say if you got into a minor accident and then a van
pulls up, a bunch of guys jump out and revoke your optional sport wheel
package?  They absolutely have no agreement with the new owner, and
therefore it would be super easy for a US attorney to prosecute them under
the title 1030 Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.



On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 12:44 PM Jay Summet via EV 
wrote:

> If the car is salvaged, it typically means that an insurance company has
> declared it "un-repairable" and then somebody else buys it for
> scrap/parts/salvage.
>
> [The original owner is compensated by their insurance.]
>
> While it is legal to repair a salvage title vehicle and get it re-titled
> for road use, Tesla has decided that the risk of a fire at one of their
> supercharger stations is too great for a vehicle in that condition.
>
> This is similar to EVgo prohibiting "homebuilt / DIY" vehciles from
> using their DC charging networks as a way to limit liability and risk.
>
> I do wish that they would allow some sort of inspection to "re-certify"
> the car safe to use on the supercharger network.but if you buy a
> salvage vehicle, you should not expect Tesla to just blindly trust that
> it works correctly.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On 3/17/21 3:20 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> > Geez, so big brother Tesla disables Fast charging if you get in an
> accident with your $50k+ car so you have to buy a new one!
> > Thanks for the info Phil.  It’s a felony but They do it anyway?  Maybe a
> felony for a pion individual but not a rich company with many lawyers.
> > Stay Charged,
> > Mark
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Mar 17, 2021, at 2:32 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Tesla has a policy where if they find out your car is salvage or has
> been in an accident that deployed the airbags, they deem it unsafe to use
> on their 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Phil, can you elaborate on your statement below, please ? Certainly, I 
love what tesla has done to influence the world to like EVs.


But I'm not clear on what you mean by "altering your car without 
permission." I have not read the purchase agreement, but I would assume 
it contains something allowing them to "disable use of superchargers 
solely at their discretion" with disagreement settled by moderators (the 
usual anti consumer process). And, with a clause waiving tesla of any 
responsibility to a subsequent owner. While I think agreements like this 
stink, how does title 1030 apply ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "(-Phil-) via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "(-Phil-)" 
Sent: 17-Mar-21 2:41:25 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV



But the main thing here is Tesla is not just blocking cars on their network, 
they are altering YOUR car without permission.  ... They absolutely have no 
agreement with the new owner, and therefore it would be super easy for a US 
attorney to prosecute them under the title 1030 Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.



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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Model Y is also 3500 lbs.

On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 9:01 PM J Bills via EV  wrote:

> way past this comment at this point, but dug up the towing capacity of the
> PHEV Escape - rated for an impressive 3500 lbs.  Seems to be best in
> class.  RAV4 was only 2500, Model Y was 3200.
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of J Bills via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 11:14 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Peri Hartman <
> pe...@kotatko.com>
> Cc: J Bills 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV
>
> I can't seem to find the towing capacity of the Escape.  I don't know that
> I've ever seen a boat behind one of those...  might be worth double
> checking.
>
> A lot of people are eyeballing that new Rav4 and comparing to the Escape
> and Y - and apparently it stacks up very well (to the escape especially).
> Might be worth a look.
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 09:22 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Peri Hartman <
> pe...@kotatko.com>
> Cc: paul dove 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV
>
> I have a friend who owned an Escape PHEV. He loved it. He decided it was
> getting to old and was in the market for a new car so I let him drive my
> Model 3.
> He sold his Escape and bought a 3. He loves it more than the Escape.
>
> On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 11:01:31 AM CDT, Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  Self driving == dream on :)
>
> If you would buy the tesla in hopes that self driving would be available
> soon enough for your wife to use, I think that is overly optimistic.
>
> Beyond that, I think you are looking at two other primary factors.
> First, since you are on EVDL, I presume you have strong ethics to use
> and support EVs. Therefore, if you can afford an EV, I think you should
> get one.
>
> The other factor is cost. I think you can do the math. If you are mostly
> going to use the new vehicle for short trips, the escape is probably
> going to be way cheaper, at least for a 10 year cost. After that, you
> may need to factor in expensive repairs for the escape and battery
> degradation for the tesla.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
> Sent: 16-Mar-21 7:57:34 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV
>
> >
> >
> >Hi
> >I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV
> range) $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto
> driving capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full
> capability is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive
> at all at night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but
> is pricey.  I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of
> Unobtanium but got a dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April
> 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The
> only inconvenience with the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a
> wall so you’d have to disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are
> pull through to accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue
> if trying to trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
> >Best regards
> >Mark
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
> >___
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[J Bills via EV]

way past this comment at this point, but dug up the towing capacity of the PHEV 
Escape - rated for an impressive 3500 lbs.  Seems to be best in class.  RAV4 
was only 2500, Model Y was 3200.

From: EV  on behalf of J Bills via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 11:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Peri Hartman 

Cc: J Bills 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

I can't seem to find the towing capacity of the Escape.  I don't know that I've 
ever seen a boat behind one of those...  might be worth double checking.

A lot of people are eyeballing that new Rav4 and comparing to the Escape and Y 
- and apparently it stacks up very well (to the escape especially).  Might be 
worth a look.

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 09:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Peri Hartman 

Cc: paul dove 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

I have a friend who owned an Escape PHEV. He loved it. He decided it was
getting to old and was in the market for a new car so I let him drive my Model 
3.
He sold his Escape and bought a 3. He loves it more than the Escape.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 11:01:31 AM CDT, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

 Self driving == dream on :)

If you would buy the tesla in hopes that self driving would be available
soon enough for your wife to use, I think that is overly optimistic.

Beyond that, I think you are looking at two other primary factors.
First, since you are on EVDL, I presume you have strong ethics to use
and support EVs. Therefore, if you can afford an EV, I think you should
get one.

The other factor is cost. I think you can do the math. If you are mostly
going to use the new vehicle for short trips, the escape is probably
going to be way cheaper, at least for a 10 year cost. After that, you
may need to factor in expensive repairs for the escape and battery
degradation for the tesla.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
Sent: 16-Mar-21 7:57:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

>
>
>Hi
>I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
>$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
>capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
>added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
>I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I 
>ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a 
>dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have 
>to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with 
>the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to 
>disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to 
>accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue if trying to 
>trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
>Best regards
>Mark
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>___
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I can re-enable it, and have done so for more than I will bother to
quantify.

Of course Tesla can see it.  They are even happy to collect the fees.

On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 7:22 PM Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:

> How can you re-enable fast charging? Won't Tesla see the blacklisted
> serial number?
>
> On 3/17/2021 2:32 PM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > Tesla has a policy where if they find out your car is salvage or has been
> > in an accident that deployed the airbags, they deem it unsafe to use on
> > their supercharger network.   Of course they have that right.  What they
> > don't have the right to do is access the vehicle without the owner's
> > permission (Felony computer intrusion) and alter it's configuration so it
> > will no longer fast charge.   Since the car controls the charger, this is
> > the mechanism they use to disable it.
> >
> > I've restored supercharging on cars that I deem are safe to do this on,
> and
> > have been doing so since 2015.   There have not been any problems.   Note
> > that I am not assisting anyone with theft, I simply restore the original
> > configuration.  If the car had paid supercharging, that is what is
> > restored, so they still have to have a credit card on file with Tesla,
> and
> > are still billed accordingly.
> >
> > The utility of a Tesla is impacted if it isn't allowed to DC fast charge.
> > (Tesla doesn't make the distinction)
> >
> > They offer an expensive high-voltage inspection procedure, which is
> > required if you want them to do any work on the powertrain (paid of
> course,
> > as they void your warranty), but they will absolutely not re-enable fast
> > charging, period.
> >
> > Here's their official policy document:
> >
> https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 6:22 AM Mark Hanson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Phil
> >> Why were their Tesla’s disabled?
> >> Best regards
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:30 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have
> >> literally touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with
> the
> >> request and permission of their owners) to help them get the cars
> >> operational again, and there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many
> of
> >> these cars are no longer connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just
> >> fine.
> >>
> >> I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that
> >> allows the same functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the
> >> owner all the functionality of Tesla's own app, plus access to all the
> >> "secret" diagnostic data that is normally only visible to Tesla.
> >>
> >> I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't
> >> "phone home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.
> >>
> >> Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data,
> Teslas
> >> are easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic
> >> capability that even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial
> >> aviation.   Too bad that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and
> >> unavailable to their customers.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks Paul
> >>> I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station
> traffic
> >>> so you have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a
> wheel
> >>> dolly).   I saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y
> but
> >>> maybe found special charging stations.  I found one that could work
> with a
> >>> trailer in Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz.
> >>> Stay Charged,
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't
> >>> seen any charging that follows the gas station model.
> >>>
> >>> On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
> >>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV
> >>> range) $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has
> auto
> >>> driving capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As
> full
> >>> capability is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t
> drive
> >>> at all at night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower
> maintenance but
> >>> is pricey.  I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of
> >>> Unobtanium but got a dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville
> April
> >>> 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.
> The
> >>> only inconvenience with the Tesla is all fast charging stations are
> along a
> >>> wall so you’d have to disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps
> are
> >>> pull through to accommodate 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Alan Arrison via EV]

How can you re-enable fast charging? Won't Tesla see the blacklisted 
serial number?


On 3/17/2021 2:32 PM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Tesla has a policy where if they find out your car is salvage or has been
in an accident that deployed the airbags, they deem it unsafe to use on
their supercharger network.   Of course they have that right.  What they
don't have the right to do is access the vehicle without the owner's
permission (Felony computer intrusion) and alter it's configuration so it
will no longer fast charge.   Since the car controls the charger, this is
the mechanism they use to disable it.

I've restored supercharging on cars that I deem are safe to do this on, and
have been doing so since 2015.   There have not been any problems.   Note
that I am not assisting anyone with theft, I simply restore the original
configuration.  If the car had paid supercharging, that is what is
restored, so they still have to have a credit card on file with Tesla, and
are still billed accordingly.

The utility of a Tesla is impacted if it isn't allowed to DC fast charge.
(Tesla doesn't make the distinction)

They offer an expensive high-voltage inspection procedure, which is
required if you want them to do any work on the powertrain (paid of course,
as they void your warranty), but they will absolutely not re-enable fast
charging, period.

Here's their official policy document:
https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf

On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 6:22 AM Mark Hanson  wrote:


Hi Phil
Why were their Tesla’s disabled?
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:30 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:


I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have
literally touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the
request and permission of their owners) to help them get the cars
operational again, and there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of
these cars are no longer connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just
fine.

I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that
allows the same functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the
owner all the functionality of Tesla's own app, plus access to all the
"secret" diagnostic data that is normally only visible to Tesla.

I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't
"phone home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.

Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data, Teslas
are easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic
capability that even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial
aviation.   Too bad that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and
unavailable to their customers.


On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:


Thanks Paul
I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic
so you have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel
dolly).   I saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but
maybe found special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a
trailer in Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz.
Stay Charged,
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:


Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't
seen any charging that follows the gas station model.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:




Hi
I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV
range) $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto
driving capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full
capability is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive
at all at night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but
is pricey.  I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of
Unobtanium but got a dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April
19thweek. So I’d have to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The
only inconvenience with the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a
wall so you’d have to disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are
pull through to accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue
if trying to trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Early on in the Model S program (Gen 1 cars) they had a fire at a
supercharger in Norway because an official Tesla Tech replaced the HV
junction box (located under the rear seat) and didn't tighten the
connections properly.

On the Gen2 cars that came out in late 2014, they added a whole bunch of
safety stuff to check for such things.  Temperature sensors, Voltage drop
sensing, etc.   Because it's vitally important to Tesla's mission to ensure
there are no fires, which of course are blown WAY out of proportion by the
media, they pulled out all the stops on both engineering and legal to
prevent this any way they could.   Yeah, I'm not faulting Tesla for wanting
to mitigate risk, but not allowing it after inspection is harming them.
Their general policy on the secondary market is really bad, this has had
the knock-on effect of making Teslas hard to insure, and the rates just
keep on climbing.

When you wreck a car, and the insurance company totals it, they depend on
the secondary market to get a lot of the cost back.   Tesla's policies have
reduced this payback, and in addition, it's so difficult to repair a Tesla
expediently because the parts availability is so restricted and even for
"authorized" shops, there are LONG delays getting the parts, so the ins co
will total it rather than pay for months of rental cars and uncertain
repair outcome.   Of course that means many more cars are getting sent to
salvage than should be.  Many are super simple repairs that don't even
touch the HV systems.

But the main thing here is Tesla is not just blocking cars on their
network, they are altering YOUR car without permission.  Look at it this
way, what would you say if you got into a minor accident and then a van
pulls up, a bunch of guys jump out and revoke your optional sport wheel
package?  They absolutely have no agreement with the new owner, and
therefore it would be super easy for a US attorney to prosecute them under
the title 1030 Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.



On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 12:44 PM Jay Summet via EV 
wrote:

> If the car is salvaged, it typically means that an insurance company has
> declared it "un-repairable" and then somebody else buys it for
> scrap/parts/salvage.
>
> [The original owner is compensated by their insurance.]
>
> While it is legal to repair a salvage title vehicle and get it re-titled
> for road use, Tesla has decided that the risk of a fire at one of their
> supercharger stations is too great for a vehicle in that condition.
>
> This is similar to EVgo prohibiting "homebuilt / DIY" vehciles from
> using their DC charging networks as a way to limit liability and risk.
>
> I do wish that they would allow some sort of inspection to "re-certify"
> the car safe to use on the supercharger network.but if you buy a
> salvage vehicle, you should not expect Tesla to just blindly trust that
> it works correctly.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On 3/17/21 3:20 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> > Geez, so big brother Tesla disables Fast charging if you get in an
> accident with your $50k+ car so you have to buy a new one!
> > Thanks for the info Phil.  It’s a felony but They do it anyway?  Maybe a
> felony for a pion individual but not a rich company with many lawyers.
> > Stay Charged,
> > Mark
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Mar 17, 2021, at 2:32 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Tesla has a policy where if they find out your car is salvage or has
> been in an accident that deployed the airbags, they deem it unsafe to use
> on their supercharger network.   Of course they have that right.  What they
> don't have the right to do is access the vehicle without the owner's
> permission (Felony computer intrusion) and alter it's configuration so it
> will no longer fast charge.   Since the car controls the charger, this is
> the mechanism they use to disable it.
> >
> > I've restored supercharging on cars that I deem are safe to do this on,
> and have been doing so since 2015.   There have not been any problems.
>  Note that I am not assisting anyone with theft, I simply restore the
> original configuration.  If the car had paid supercharging, that is what is
> restored, so they still have to have a credit card on file with Tesla, and
> are still billed accordingly.
> >
> > The utility of a Tesla is impacted if it isn't allowed to DC fast
> charge.  (Tesla doesn't make the distinction)
> >
> > They offer an expensive high-voltage inspection procedure, which is
> required if you want them to do any work on the powertrain (paid of course,
> as they void your warranty), but they will absolutely not re-enable fast
> charging, period.
> >
> > Here's their official policy document:
> https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 6:22 AM Mark Hanson 
> wrote:
> >> Hi Phil
> >> Why were their Tesla’s disabled?
> >> Best regards
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:30 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> I have 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Jay Summet via EV]

If the car is salvaged, it typically means that an insurance company has 
declared it "un-repairable" and then somebody else buys it for 
scrap/parts/salvage.


[The original owner is compensated by their insurance.]

While it is legal to repair a salvage title vehicle and get it re-titled 
for road use, Tesla has decided that the risk of a fire at one of their 
supercharger stations is too great for a vehicle in that condition.


This is similar to EVgo prohibiting "homebuilt / DIY" vehciles from 
using their DC charging networks as a way to limit liability and risk.


I do wish that they would allow some sort of inspection to "re-certify" 
the car safe to use on the supercharger network.but if you buy a 
salvage vehicle, you should not expect Tesla to just blindly trust that 
it works correctly.


Jay


On 3/17/21 3:20 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Geez, so big brother Tesla disables Fast charging if you get in an accident 
with your $50k+ car so you have to buy a new one!
Thanks for the info Phil.  It’s a felony but They do it anyway?  Maybe a felony 
for a pion individual but not a rich company with many lawyers.
Stay Charged,
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 17, 2021, at 2:32 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:


Tesla has a policy where if they find out your car is salvage or has been in an 
accident that deployed the airbags, they deem it unsafe to use on their 
supercharger network.   Of course they have that right.  What they don't have 
the right to do is access the vehicle without the owner's permission (Felony 
computer intrusion) and alter it's configuration so it will no longer fast 
charge.   Since the car controls the charger, this is the mechanism they use to 
disable it.

I've restored supercharging on cars that I deem are safe to do this on, and 
have been doing so since 2015.   There have not been any problems.   Note that 
I am not assisting anyone with theft, I simply restore the original 
configuration.  If the car had paid supercharging, that is what is restored, so 
they still have to have a credit card on file with Tesla, and are still billed 
accordingly.

The utility of a Tesla is impacted if it isn't allowed to DC fast charge.  
(Tesla doesn't make the distinction)

They offer an expensive high-voltage inspection procedure, which is required if 
you want them to do any work on the powertrain (paid of course, as they void 
your warranty), but they will absolutely not re-enable fast charging, period.

Here's their official policy document:  
https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf


On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 6:22 AM Mark Hanson  wrote:
Hi Phil
Why were their Tesla’s disabled?
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:30 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:


I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have literally 
touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the request and 
permission of their owners) to help them get the cars operational again, and there 
is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of these cars are no longer 
connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just fine.

I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that allows the same 
functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the owner all the functionality of Tesla's own 
app, plus access to all the "secret" diagnostic data that is normally only visible to 
Tesla.

I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't "phone 
home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.

Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data, Teslas are 
easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic capability that 
even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial aviation.   Too bad 
that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and unavailable to their 
customers.



On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
Thanks Paul
I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic so you 
have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel dolly).   I 
saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but maybe found 
special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a trailer in 
Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz.
Stay Charged,
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:


Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't seen any 
charging that follows the gas station model.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:




Hi
I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Geez, so big brother Tesla disables Fast charging if you get in an accident 
with your $50k+ car so you have to buy a new one!
Thanks for the info Phil.  It’s a felony but They do it anyway?  Maybe a felony 
for a pion individual but not a rich company with many lawyers.  
Stay Charged,
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 17, 2021, at 2:32 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:


Tesla has a policy where if they find out your car is salvage or has been in an 
accident that deployed the airbags, they deem it unsafe to use on their 
supercharger network.   Of course they have that right.  What they don't have 
the right to do is access the vehicle without the owner's permission (Felony 
computer intrusion) and alter it's configuration so it will no longer fast 
charge.   Since the car controls the charger, this is the mechanism they use to 
disable it.

I've restored supercharging on cars that I deem are safe to do this on, and 
have been doing so since 2015.   There have not been any problems.   Note that 
I am not assisting anyone with theft, I simply restore the original 
configuration.  If the car had paid supercharging, that is what is restored, so 
they still have to have a credit card on file with Tesla, and are still billed 
accordingly.  

The utility of a Tesla is impacted if it isn't allowed to DC fast charge.  
(Tesla doesn't make the distinction)

They offer an expensive high-voltage inspection procedure, which is required if 
you want them to do any work on the powertrain (paid of course, as they void 
your warranty), but they will absolutely not re-enable fast charging, period. 

Here's their official policy document:  
https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf

> On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 6:22 AM Mark Hanson  wrote:
> Hi Phil
> Why were their Tesla’s disabled?
> Best regards 
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:30 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
> 
> 
> I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have literally 
> touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the request and 
> permission of their owners) to help them get the cars operational again, and 
> there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of these cars are no longer 
> connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just fine.
> 
> I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that allows 
> the same functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the owner all 
> the functionality of Tesla's own app, plus access to all the "secret" 
> diagnostic data that is normally only visible to Tesla.
> 
> I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't "phone 
> home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.
> 
> Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data, Teslas 
> are easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic capability 
> that even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial aviation.   Too 
> bad that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and unavailable to their 
> customers.
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>> Thanks Paul 
>> I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic so 
>> you have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel 
>> dolly).   I saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but 
>> maybe found special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a 
>> trailer in Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz. 
>> Stay Charged,
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't seen 
>> any charging that follows the gas station model.
>> 
>> On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi 
>> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
>> $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
>> capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability 
>> is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at 
>> night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey. 
>>  I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got 
>> a dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d 
>> have to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience 
>> with the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have 
>> to disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to 
>> accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue if trying to 
>> trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half). 
>> Best regards 
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> ARCHIVE: 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Tesla has a policy where if they find out your car is salvage or has been
in an accident that deployed the airbags, they deem it unsafe to use on
their supercharger network.   Of course they have that right.  What they
don't have the right to do is access the vehicle without the owner's
permission (Felony computer intrusion) and alter it's configuration so it
will no longer fast charge.   Since the car controls the charger, this is
the mechanism they use to disable it.

I've restored supercharging on cars that I deem are safe to do this on, and
have been doing so since 2015.   There have not been any problems.   Note
that I am not assisting anyone with theft, I simply restore the original
configuration.  If the car had paid supercharging, that is what is
restored, so they still have to have a credit card on file with Tesla, and
are still billed accordingly.

The utility of a Tesla is impacted if it isn't allowed to DC fast charge.
(Tesla doesn't make the distinction)

They offer an expensive high-voltage inspection procedure, which is
required if you want them to do any work on the powertrain (paid of course,
as they void your warranty), but they will absolutely not re-enable fast
charging, period.

Here's their official policy document:
https://pdfhost.io/v/vJRva0n7P_TN181_Unsupported_Vehicle_Policy_R1pdf.pdf

On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 6:22 AM Mark Hanson  wrote:

> Hi Phil
> Why were their Tesla’s disabled?
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:30 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
> 
> I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have
> literally touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the
> request and permission of their owners) to help them get the cars
> operational again, and there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of
> these cars are no longer connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just
> fine.
>
> I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that
> allows the same functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the
> owner all the functionality of Tesla's own app, plus access to all the
> "secret" diagnostic data that is normally only visible to Tesla.
>
> I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't
> "phone home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.
>
> Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data, Teslas
> are easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic
> capability that even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial
> aviation.   Too bad that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and
> unavailable to their customers.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Paul
>> I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic
>> so you have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel
>> dolly).   I saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but
>> maybe found special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a
>> trailer in Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz.
>> Stay Charged,
>> Mark
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't
>> seen any charging that follows the gas station model.
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi
>> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV
>> range) $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto
>> driving capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full
>> capability is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive
>> at all at night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but
>> is pricey.  I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of
>> Unobtanium but got a dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April
>> 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The
>> only inconvenience with the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a
>> wall so you’d have to disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are
>> pull through to accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue
>> if trying to trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
>> Best regards
>> Mark
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Peri Hartman via EV]

David,

Ok, I see. Yes, it's possible that tesla, or any manufacturer, could 
sneak in some feature loss and make it look like "natural" loss. This is 
a common practice with the mundane category of printer cartridges - they 
go "empty" well before they are actually empty. But those practices were 
discovered, too, and it's not hard to find workarounds. I'm sure similar 
practices exist elsewhere. Will they get discovered ? Hard to say.


As far as EVs go, as long as individuals have the right to hack and 
tamper with stuff, I think it will be difficult for manufacturers to 
maintain undiscovered artificial degradation. Hopefully, I'm right :)




One more comment: I still think you are being somewhat unfair to Tesla. 
As for privacy invasion, if they misuse the data, I'm 100% with you. But 
development of what eventually will be self driving mode is surely not 
cheap. Even if it costs virtually nothing to enable it, aren't they 
entitled to recovering their investment over time.


Second, pricing has little to do with cost. That's always been true. 
It's all about perceived value and how much customers are willing to 
pay. Tesla's using that approach and pretty much all businesses do. When 
the plastic lids for my pyrex bowls started cracking, I looked for 
replacements. Pyrex wanted about 50% of the cost of buying new bowls. 
The plastic is clearly not costing them anywhere near that level, but 
they figure that's the perceived value, given the resistance to paying 
100% for a completely new set. (I found a vendor at a more reasonable 
price.)


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 16-Mar-21 7:34:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV


On 16 Mar 2021 at 20:12, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


 Where I disagree is your comparison of tesla and apple. What apple did
 is terribly disingenuous. And they got nailed for it. But it's very
 different from tesla stating that, if you want "self driving," you need
 to pay $10k for it to be enabled. They didn't try to misconstrue
 anything, they aren't being deceptive.


That's not what I meant.  I wasn't comparing Apple's deception to Tesla's
$10k autopilot charge.  Sorry if that wasn't clear

I'll talk about that separately below.

When I mentioned Apple, I was pointing out that when a manufacturer has
effective control of a product that you think you own, they might be tempted
to do underhanded things.

I hope we can agree on that much.

Apple has an excellent reputation for high quality, innovative, easy to use
products.  Yet at huge risk to their reputation, they succumbed to
temptation and deliberately crippled Iphones.

They were caught, but how many other highly-regarded manufacturers have done
something similar and NOT been caught?  How would we know?

If as sterling a company as Apple abused their control of their products,
how can we be sure that Tesla might not - for example - gradually reduce the
range of older cars to get their owners thinking about an "upgrade"?

It's nice to think that the tech-savvy Tesla community would catch on, but
what if they didn't?  Again, how would we know?

And even if they did, what would happen to Tesla?  Like Apple, they have
something of a cult following.  Some of their fans would deny that it
happened, or if it did, that it even mattered.  Some of them would probably
aver that Tesla did it for the owners' benefit!

Understand, I'm not predicting that Tesla will do something like this.  I'm
just saying that because they have such tight control of the cars, it's
quite possible, and not unprecedented.


 I suppose you could argue that they should actually have to download
 the software rather than enable it, but that's getting terribly
 nuanced.


OK, now we're specifically talking about advanced autopilot (sorry, I refuse
to call it "full self driving" 'cause it isn't).

If they had to add $5000 worth of hardware to make advanced autopilot work,
then I'd allow that $10k might make sense.  MIGHT.

If they had to actually rewrite the software to give it advanced capability,
then I'd be OK with paying them for that effort - though I'm having trouble
seeing $10k for it.  I'd expect to pay $10k for semi-custom computer
software that sold in the hundreds of copies.  For a chunk of code for a car
that sells hundreds of thousands of units per year, IMO $200-500 might be a
reasonable figure.  For sure not $10k.

If the software is already written and in place, and all they're doing is
flipping a bit in memory to activate it, nope, sorry.  How about $50?

Now that's my own percept ion of value.  If advanced autopilot is worth $10k
to you, and you don't care that you're paying them $10k to do no additional
real work at all, who am I to argue?



 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Jim Waite via EV]

Hi Gail & All,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your clarity!!!

[Although I began my journey with the EVDL some 25+ years ago (mostly just an 
old geezer lurker now), but having recently *acquired a Model Y, I sincerely 
appreciate you pointing out the higher (correct?) course of action Mark & all 
of us to be considering with regards to his question.]

Best regards,
Jim Waite

(*looking forward to further discussion on THAT point),


On Mar 17, 2021, at 2:36 AM, Gail Lucas wrote:

Hi Mark,

The Tesla is the safest car on the market. I have seen videos of horrendous 
crashes from which the Tesla occupants walked away. You say your wife has 
trouble driving, which may make it more likely she would have an accident. 
Consider whether disconnecting the boat is more important than your wife 
surviving a crash.

Gail

On 3/16/2021 7:57 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> Hi
> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
> $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
> capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability 
> is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at 
> night.  I drive her to work.


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Willie via EV]

On 3/16/21 9:29 PM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have literally
touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the request
and permission of their owners) to help them get the cars operational
again, and there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of these cars
are no longer connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just fine.


Are you offering products or services?  Are you the guy that is doing 
vans with Tesla running gear?


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Hi Phil
Why were their Tesla’s disabled?
Best regards 
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2021, at 10:30 PM, (-Phil-)  wrote:


I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have literally 
touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the request and 
permission of their owners) to help them get the cars operational again, and 
there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of these cars are no longer 
connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just fine.

I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that allows 
the same functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the owner all the 
functionality of Tesla's own app, plus access to all the "secret" diagnostic 
data that is normally only visible to Tesla.

I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't "phone 
home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.

Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data, Teslas are 
easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic capability that 
even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial aviation.   Too bad 
that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and unavailable to their 
customers.


> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> Thanks Paul 
> I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic so 
> you have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel 
> dolly).   I saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but 
> maybe found special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a 
> trailer in Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz. 
> Stay Charged,
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:
> 
> 
> Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't seen 
> any charging that follows the gas station model.
> 
> On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi 
> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
> $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
> capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability 
> is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at 
> night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  
> I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a 
> dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have 
> to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with 
> the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to 
> disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to 
> accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue if trying to 
> trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half). 
> Best regards 
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Willie via EV]

On 3/16/21 12:10 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Thanks Paul
I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic so you 
have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel dolly).   I 
saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but maybe found 
special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a trailer in 
Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz.


Things may well be different in your area but I have had no trouble 
SuperCharging while pulling a trailer.  The back up plan has always been 
to unhook from the trailer but I've done that only once.  That once in 
Normal IL where the SuperCharger is on the 3rd floor of a parking 
garage.  I was staying in the area over night so left the trailer at the 
hotel when I went to charge.  At many other SuperChargers, one "pull in 
forward" slot is available and the trailer can be left as a slight 
traffic obstruction.  Other SuperChargers can be little used so that a 
car with trailer can occupy about three slots without inconveniencing 
other chargers.  There ARE SuperCharger sites that can not accommodate 
trailers.  SuperChargers are now dense enough (about every 50-100) miles 
that you can likely choose only trailer friendly sites even considering 
reduced range while towing.


I despair at the FSD negativism coming from those with little to no 
Tesla experience.  I find full value in the cost.  I've paid $5k for FSD 
but will pay $10k (or more) for the option on my next car.  I do have 
Tesla owning friends that chose not to buy FSD; they generally do not 
drive often.  FSD cost may well be justified by the safety.  While using 
FSD, your probability of being involved in an accident is less than half 
if not using.  But the primary attraction of FSD is reduced stress and 
increased driving comfort.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Gail Lucas via EV]

Hi Mark,

The Tesla is the safest car on the market. I have seen videos of 
horrendous crashes from which the Tesla occupants walked away. You say 
your wife has trouble driving, which may make it more likely she would 
have an accident. Consider whether disconnecting the boat is more 
important than your wife surviving a crash.


Gail

On 3/16/2021 7:57 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:



Hi
I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I ordered 
the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a dealer 
paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel 
the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with the Tesla is 
all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to disconnect the 
boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to accommodate trailers.  
That would probably just be an issue if trying to trailer the boat a long 
distance (and the range half).
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Mar 2021 at 21:47, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> If Tesla discovers the methods I use, they will block them, so it has
> to be kept under wraps for the good of the project. 

That stinks.  Don't you hate it when manufacturers treat you like their 
enemy just because you behave like you actually own their products that 
you've bought?

> library of congress approved an exemption to the DMCA specifically
> allowing car hacking.  (DieselGate helped push this through!) 

At least some good came out of ... uh, another auto manufacturer's blatant 
and illegal deception.  

Thanks for the response!

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Imagine if workers hired consultants and "compensation 
 committees," consisting of their peers at other companies, 
 to recommend how much they should be paid. The result would be 
 -- well, we know what it would be, because that's what CEOs do.
 
-- Matthew Stewart
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 8:37 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> Is it server software that could be installed anywhere?  Could a Tesla
> owner
> install it on his own internet-connected computer, and then crack the
> Tesla's software so the Tesla speaks only with that computer?
>

It's possible, but I don't offer this.  If Tesla discovers the methods I
use, they will block them, so it has to be kept under wraps for the good of
the project.

I hope that Tesla don't either find a way to block that access, or take
> some
> kind of legal action against you.  They may have the DMCA on their side,
> unfortunately.
>

Actually they don't (anymore).  In 2015 the library of congress approved an
exemption to the DMCA specifically allowing car hacking.  (DieselGate
helped push this through!)

https://www.whitecase.com/publications/article/new-dmca-exemption-allows-consumers-hack-their-own-vehicles
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Mar 2021 at 19:29, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> I have literally touched thousands of salvage Teslas ... there is a very
> high success rate. (>99%)   Many of these cars are no longer connected
> to Tesla's servers, and operate just fine. 

That's good news!  

> I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that
> allows the same functionality that a connected car offers.  

Is it server software that could be installed anywhere?  Could a Tesla owner 
install it on his own internet-connected computer, and then crack the 
Tesla's software so the Tesla speaks only with that computer?  

> I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't "phone
> home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.

Again, good news.

> 
> Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data,
> Teslas are easy and fun to work on ...Too bad that Tesla works REALLY
> hard to keep that secret and unavailable to their customers. 

I hope that Tesla don't either find a way to block that access, or take some 
kind of legal action against you.  They may have the DMCA on their side, 
unfortunately.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Hey, this is awesome to hear!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 16, 2021, at 7:30 PM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have literally
> touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the request
> and permission of their owners) to help them get the cars operational
> again, and there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of these cars
> are no longer connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just fine.
> 
> I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that
> allows the same functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the
> owner all the functionality of Tesla's own app, plus access to all the
> "secret" diagnostic data that is normally only visible to Tesla.
> 
> I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't "phone
> home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.
> 
> Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data, Teslas
> are easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic
> capability that even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial
> aviation.   Too bad that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and
> unavailable to their customers.
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Paul
>> I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic
>> so you have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel
>> dolly).   I saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but
>> maybe found special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a
>> trailer in Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz.
>> Stay Charged,
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't
>> seen any charging that follows the gas station model.
>> 
>> On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi
>> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range)
>> $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving
>> capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability
>> is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at
>> night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is
>> pricey.  I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of
>> Unobtanium but got a dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April
>> 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The
>> only inconvenience with the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a
>> wall so you’d have to disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are
>> pull through to accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue
>> if trying to trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
>> Best regards
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Mar 2021 at 20:12, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Where I disagree is your comparison of tesla and apple. What apple did 
> is terribly disingenuous. And they got nailed for it. But it's very 
> different from tesla stating that, if you want "self driving," you need 
> to pay $10k for it to be enabled. They didn't try to misconstrue 
> anything, they aren't being deceptive.

That's not what I meant.  I wasn't comparing Apple's deception to Tesla's 
$10k autopilot charge.  Sorry if that wasn't clear   

I'll talk about that separately below.

When I mentioned Apple, I was pointing out that when a manufacturer has 
effective control of a product that you think you own, they might be tempted 
to do underhanded things.  

I hope we can agree on that much. 

Apple has an excellent reputation for high quality, innovative, easy to use 
products.  Yet at huge risk to their reputation, they succumbed to 
temptation and deliberately crippled Iphones.  

They were caught, but how many other highly-regarded manufacturers have done 
something similar and NOT been caught?  How would we know?

If as sterling a company as Apple abused their control of their products, 
how can we be sure that Tesla might not - for example - gradually reduce the 
range of older cars to get their owners thinking about an "upgrade"?  

It's nice to think that the tech-savvy Tesla community would catch on, but 
what if they didn't?  Again, how would we know?  

And even if they did, what would happen to Tesla?  Like Apple, they have 
something of a cult following.  Some of their fans would deny that it 
happened, or if it did, that it even mattered.  Some of them would probably 
aver that Tesla did it for the owners' benefit!

Understand, I'm not predicting that Tesla will do something like this.  I'm 
just saying that because they have such tight control of the cars, it's 
quite possible, and not unprecedented.

> I suppose you could argue that they should actually have to download
> the software rather than enable it, but that's getting terribly
> nuanced. 

OK, now we're specifically talking about advanced autopilot (sorry, I refuse 
to call it "full self driving" 'cause it isn't). 

If they had to add $5000 worth of hardware to make advanced autopilot work, 
then I'd allow that $10k might make sense.  MIGHT.

If they had to actually rewrite the software to give it advanced capability, 
then I'd be OK with paying them for that effort - though I'm having trouble 
seeing $10k for it.  I'd expect to pay $10k for semi-custom computer 
software that sold in the hundreds of copies.  For a chunk of code for a car 
that sells hundreds of thousands of units per year, IMO $200-500 might be a 
reasonable figure.  For sure not $10k.

If the software is already written and in place, and all they're doing is 
flipping a bit in memory to activate it, nope, sorry.  How about $50?

Now that's my own percept ion of value.  If advanced autopilot is worth $10k 
to you, and you don't care that you're paying them $10k to do no additional 
real work at all, who am I to argue?

> 
> I'll go even further: by having the software installed but not enabled 
> allows them to build "experience." 

That's a trick worthy of Google!  Every time I solve one of those bloody 
infuriating captchas, I'm working for Google and they're paying me nothing. 

So if I'm a non-advanced-autopilot Tesla owner, I give up my privacy and let 
Tesla keep a record of everywhere I drive and everything I see around me.  
They get to use my data to improve the software they're charging $10k for. 
I'm working for Tesla and they're paying me nothing.

Right.  They should be paying me for that.  Or give me the advanced software 
for free for doing some of their work for them.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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-- Paul Graham

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I have extensive experience hacking on Teslas since 2015.  I have literally
touched thousands of salvage Teslas (mostly remotely and with the request
and permission of their owners) to help them get the cars operational
again, and there is a very high success rate. (>99%)   Many of these cars
are no longer connected to Tesla's servers, and operate just fine.

I have created a new backend replacement for Tesla's "mothership" that
allows the same functionality that a connected car offers.  It gives the
owner all the functionality of Tesla's own app, plus access to all the
"secret" diagnostic data that is normally only visible to Tesla.

I can assure you that a Tesla will still drive fine even if it can't "phone
home".  Of course, you lose some of the connected features.

Surprisingly, once you have access to the internal diagnostic data, Teslas
are easy and fun to work on.  They have incredible self-diagnostic
capability that even surpasses systems such as FADEC used in commercial
aviation.   Too bad that Tesla works REALLY hard to keep that secret and
unavailable to their customers.


On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:19 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Thanks Paul
> I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic
> so you have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel
> dolly).   I saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but
> maybe found special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a
> trailer in Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz.
> Stay Charged,
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:
>
> 
> Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't
> seen any charging that follows the gas station model.
>
> On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi
> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range)
> $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving
> capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability
> is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at
> night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is
> pricey.  I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of
> Unobtanium but got a dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April
> 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The
> only inconvenience with the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a
> wall so you’d have to disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are
> pull through to accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue
> if trying to trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Thanks Paul 
I haven’t either, the trailer sticks out obstructing gas station traffic so you 
have to detach the boat (and With a heavy tongue might need a wheel dolly).   I 
saw online some folks charging with campers behind their Y but maybe found 
special charging stations.  I found one that could work with a trailer in 
Woodstock, md at Walmart but not at Sheetz. 
Stay Charged,
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 16, 2021, at 11:43 AM, paul dove  wrote:


Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't seen any 
charging that follows the gas station model.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:




Hi 
I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I ordered 
the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a dealer 
paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel 
the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with the Tesla is 
all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to disconnect the 
boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to accommodate trailers.  
That would probably just be an issue if trying to trailer the boat a long 
distance (and the range half). 
Best regards 
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Peri Hartman via EV]

David,

I think you are making an grossly unfair comparison. First, though, I do 
agree that if you don't have full control over a product you buy, you 
don't fully own it. I'll jump back to that in a moment.


Where I disagree is your comparison of tesla and apple. What apple did 
is terribly disingenuous. And they got nailed for it. But it's very 
different from tesla stating that, if you want "self driving," you need 
to pay $10k for it to be enabled. They didn't try to misconstrue 
anything, they aren't being deceptive.


In fact, I'd go further to say that's about the only choice they have. 
There probably isn't any extra hardware needed for self driving over 
autopilot. So, all they can do is offer different software. I suppose 
you could argue that they should actually have to download the software 
rather than enable it, but that's getting terribly nuanced.


I'll go even further: by having the software installed but not enabled 
allows them to build "experience." The software is probably mostly based 
on "machine learning" where situations (or, really, combinations of 
fragments of situations) are weighted for probably outcomes. The more 
people providing situational data, the more the software learns. So, 
they want the software in all vehicles, whether the customer pays or 
not, in order to improve self driving mode.


I think tesla would go to court and loose if they disabled features in 
the car that they originally claimed you paid for. I'm not concerned 
about that, though I will admit they might have some wiggle room to 
argue that such-and-such feature is in package X, not Y.


As for owning a product, if that product is software, it's long been 
held that you only hold the right to use the software. It's somewhat 
like a copyright: you can buy a book and you own the book but you don't 
own the text. If you're comfortable with that, then consider software 
that way and try to be comfortable with not owning a copy of software. 
Hope that makes sense.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 16-Mar-21 11:28:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV


Mark, have you looked into obtaining service manuals and the challenges of
working on your own Tesla?  I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong)
that Tesla discourages owners from doing anything but driving their cars.

And by "their," I mean Tesla, not you.  From what I can tell, you don't ever
fully own a Tesla.

Many or most "options" seem to actually already exist in the cars' hardware.
They're just artificially disabled in its software until you pay for the
right to use them.  This might be OK with you if you grew up with
crippleware commercial software and think it's just fine, but it really
grates on me.

Tesla effectively remains in control of the car you buy (or should I say
"acquire the rights to"?).

There are all kinds of nefarious things they could do with this capability,
and you're counting on them to be nice.

Like Apple did with Iphones, if they want you to buy a new car, they could
deliberately and gradually degrade your Tesla's range or performance.

If someday they decide they want more money from you, they could decree that
formerly free functions were "in testing mode" or something, but now you
have to pay a monthly fee to keep them.

If someday they shut down the computers that the cars phone home to, will
Teslas turn into 2-ton bricks?  Or will they be like the 1950s Studebakers
and Packards that you can still restore and drive today?

It seems to me that if you don't fully control where and how you use a
product that you've bought, you don't really own that product.  If you're
considering writing that big of a check, I think that you owe it to yourself
to look closely at what you're really buying.


 \  /  (R) Registered Rabbitmark
  \/
 ['']
*/  \*
{}
 \  /@
  ^^

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest
 in a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come
 to the attention of those in authority," and finishes with
 "May the gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no
 idea about its authenticity.

 -- Terry Pratchett
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Mark, have you looked into obtaining service manuals and the challenges of 
working on your own Tesla?  I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) 
that Tesla discourages owners from doing anything but driving their cars.

And by "their," I mean Tesla, not you.  From what I can tell, you don't ever 
fully own a Tesla.  

Many or most "options" seem to actually already exist in the cars' hardware. 
They're just artificially disabled in its software until you pay for the 
right to use them.  This might be OK with you if you grew up with 
crippleware commercial software and think it's just fine, but it really 
grates on me.

Tesla effectively remains in control of the car you buy (or should I say 
"acquire the rights to"?).

There are all kinds of nefarious things they could do with this capability, 
and you're counting on them to be nice.  

Like Apple did with Iphones, if they want you to buy a new car, they could 
deliberately and gradually degrade your Tesla's range or performance.

If someday they decide they want more money from you, they could decree that 
formerly free functions were "in testing mode" or something, but now you 
have to pay a monthly fee to keep them.

If someday they shut down the computers that the cars phone home to, will 
Teslas turn into 2-ton bricks?  Or will they be like the 1950s Studebakers 
and Packards that you can still restore and drive today?

It seems to me that if you don't fully control where and how you use a 
product that you've bought, you don't really own that product.  If you're 
considering writing that big of a check, I think that you owe it to yourself 
to look closely at what you're really buying.


 \  /  (R) Registered Rabbitmark
  \/
 ['']
*/  \*
{}
 \  /@
  ^^

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest 
 in a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come 
 to the attention of those in authority," and finishes with 
 "May the gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no 
 idea about its authenticity.  

 -- Terry Pratchett 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[J Bills via EV]

I can't seem to find the towing capacity of the Escape.  I don't know that I've 
ever seen a boat behind one of those...  might be worth double checking.

A lot of people are eyeballing that new Rav4 and comparing to the Escape and Y 
- and apparently it stacks up very well (to the escape especially).  Might be 
worth a look.

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 09:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Peri Hartman 

Cc: paul dove 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

I have a friend who owned an Escape PHEV. He loved it. He decided it was
getting to old and was in the market for a new car so I let him drive my Model 
3.
He sold his Escape and bought a 3. He loves it more than the Escape.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 11:01:31 AM CDT, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

 Self driving == dream on :)

If you would buy the tesla in hopes that self driving would be available
soon enough for your wife to use, I think that is overly optimistic.

Beyond that, I think you are looking at two other primary factors.
First, since you are on EVDL, I presume you have strong ethics to use
and support EVs. Therefore, if you can afford an EV, I think you should
get one.

The other factor is cost. I think you can do the math. If you are mostly
going to use the new vehicle for short trips, the escape is probably
going to be way cheaper, at least for a 10 year cost. After that, you
may need to factor in expensive repairs for the escape and battery
degradation for the tesla.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
Sent: 16-Mar-21 7:57:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

>
>
>Hi
>I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
>$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
>capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
>added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
>I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I 
>ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a 
>dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have 
>to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with 
>the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to 
>disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to 
>accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue if trying to 
>trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
>Best regards
>Mark
>
>Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[paul dove via EV]

 I have a friend who owned an Escape PHEV. He loved it. He decided it was 
getting to old and was in the market for a new car so I let him drive my Model 
3. 
He sold his Escape and bought a 3. He loves it more than the Escape.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 11:01:31 AM CDT, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Self driving == dream on :)

If you would buy the tesla in hopes that self driving would be available 
soon enough for your wife to use, I think that is overly optimistic.

Beyond that, I think you are looking at two other primary factors. 
First, since you are on EVDL, I presume you have strong ethics to use 
and support EVs. Therefore, if you can afford an EV, I think you should 
get one.

The other factor is cost. I think you can do the math. If you are mostly 
going to use the new vehicle for short trips, the escape is probably 
going to be way cheaper, at least for a 10 year cost. After that, you 
may need to factor in expensive repairs for the escape and battery 
degradation for the tesla.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
Sent: 16-Mar-21 7:57:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

>
>
>Hi
>I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
>$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
>capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
>added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
>I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I 
>ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a 
>dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have 
>to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with 
>the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to 
>disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to 
>accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue if trying to 
>trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half).
>Best regards
>Mark
>
>Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[paul dove via EV]

 Can you charge with a trailor attached on non-Tesla charger? I haven't seen 
any charging that follows the gas station model.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021, 9:57:49 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

Hi 
I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I ordered 
the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a dealer 
paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel 
the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with the Tesla is 
all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to disconnect the 
boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to accommodate trailers.  
That would probably just be an issue if trying to trailer the boat a long 
distance (and the range half). 
Best regards 
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Self driving == dream on :)

If you would buy the tesla in hopes that self driving would be available 
soon enough for your wife to use, I think that is overly optimistic.


Beyond that, I think you are looking at two other primary factors. 
First, since you are on EVDL, I presume you have strong ethics to use 
and support EVs. Therefore, if you can afford an EV, I think you should 
get one.


The other factor is cost. I think you can do the math. If you are mostly 
going to use the new vehicle for short trips, the escape is probably 
going to be way cheaper, at least for a 10 year cost. After that, you 
may need to factor in expensive repairs for the escape and battery 
degradation for the tesla.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
Sent: 16-Mar-21 7:57:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV




Hi
I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
$32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability is 
added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at night.  
I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  I ordered 
the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a dealer 
paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have to cancel 
the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with the Tesla is 
all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to disconnect the 
boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to accommodate trailers.  
That would probably just be an issue if trying to trailer the boat a long 
distance (and the range half).
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y vs Escape PHEV

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Sounds like the question is whether you should drive an EV or a gas powered car 
with a few electric miles. You sound like the gas engine is your main source of 
motive power.

You need to think about WHY you want an EV, or does it have nothing to do with 
the source of power? Clean air important to you? Addressing climate change?

I don’t know your main use and duty cycle is, but if both equally meet your 
needs there, I can tell you that NO ONE that I’ve known has ever regretted 
buying a Tesla. They all love it.  Maybe you won’t, but I can’t ever remember 
anyone going on and on about how much they love their Ford Escape.



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 16, 2021, at 7:57 AM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi 
> I’m having trouble deciding between a Ford Escape PHEV (37 miles EV range) 
> $32k-6.8kFed or a Tesla-Y $50k (316 Mile range)  The Tesla has auto driving 
> capability, can be added anytime for an additional $10k (As full capability 
> is added) since My wife has trouble driving now and won’t drive at all at 
> night.  I drive her to work.  The Tesla has lower maintenance but is pricey.  
> I ordered the Ford in October and thought it was made of Unobtanium but got a 
> dealer paper saying they’d make it iN Louisville April 19thweek. So I’d have 
> to cancel the Ford order if I bought the Tesla.  The only inconvenience with 
> the Tesla is all fast charging stations are along a wall so you’d have to 
> disconnect the boat to charge whereas gas pumps are pull through to 
> accommodate trailers.  That would probably just be an issue if trying to 
> trailer the boat a long distance (and the range half). 
> Best regards 
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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