RE: Unlimited Quotas
But then they talk about how the IT guy is a dick etc. Already had that happen. -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 9:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And then when the users come yelling, just point the finger to the direction where blame goes. It's rather amazing how people won't go complaining to a CEO or other decision maker level person. -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:14 PM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It is possible that your best option is to do as I suggest and give them the options well in advance of a crisis and then let the crisis happen. You can even warn them along the way if you want. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:12 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I am finally getting management to make some decisions. But they have a habit of putting things off until we are in a crisis situation. I hate to have to wait until all hell breaks loose and then both management AND the users are throwing a fit. Jim -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:06 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Like the other Ed is telling you, it shouldn't be your job to make their business decisions. You explain the ramifications of having no quotas currently, what it will mean in the future, and the costs to change things. That is, you present options to management. You should be positioning your job as a service provider, a helper. Do your best to leave the policeman role to those best equipped to handle it, i.e., management. Your customers, the users, will love you more in the morning that way. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:27 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning
RE: Unlimited Quotas
And then I can call you and pay you to fix the mess. :-) Jim -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:14 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It is possible that your best option is to do as I suggest and give them the options well in advance of a crisis and then let the crisis happen. You can even warn them along the way if you want. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:12 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I am finally getting management to make some decisions. But they have a habit of putting things off until we are in a crisis situation. I hate to have to wait until all hell breaks loose and then both management AND the users are throwing a fit. Jim -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:06 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Like the other Ed is telling you, it shouldn't be your job to make their business decisions. You explain the ramifications of having no quotas currently, what it will mean in the future, and the costs to change things. That is, you present options to management. You should be positioning your job as a service provider, a helper. Do your best to leave the policeman role to those best equipped to handle it, i.e., management. Your customers, the users, will love you more in the morning that way. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:27 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell management that I told you so when things break but all they want to hear is how soon will it be fixed. So maybe I am just whining, and should just get over it. So
RE: Unlimited Quotas
James writes; But then they talk about how the IT guy is a dick etc. Already had that happen. If anyone finds a surefire way to avoid this happening, then they could be Very Rich Very Quick (put me on the DL)... All the best, Andéjà vudy -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 9:18 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And then when the users come yelling, just point the finger to the direction where blame goes. It's rather amazing how people won't go complaining to a CEO or other decision maker level person. snip _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
On your comment about Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! --- I think you might not quite understand the problem with SIS, it is only good for when the email is being sent in transit because as soon as it arrives and the person replies to it with Outlook, bingo no more SIS for that message. My last place of work and current we get roughly 1.3 ratio. Cheers Paul Standards are like toothbrushes, everybody agrees you should have one, but no one wants to use yours -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Yes I've worked in small companies. And I've sold to small companies. I dare say that I understand the dynamics fairly well. Disk space, tape space, and backup time are all simple issues, present them to the purse strings and let them make the decision. 1GB of saved email? You aren't even in the big leagues here. I'd say that well over 50% of the users on this list have one ore more mailboxes with 1GB storage. Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! And as I said, the 90%-10% rule goes to work. No, my regards of a TB as small doesn't mean that I don't know the small business environment, it only means that I work with a large range of customers. But I also know that 1TB isn't that expensive anymore. That's only seven 160GB drives. I've known many small companies with seven drive servers. When 4GB drives were common, it wasn't that odd to have that many drives. Yes, I know that you often have to beg and plead with a customer to get a tape backup. So? That's what I'm saying. The customer (aka business drivers) get to make the decisions. Don't assume that they always want everything. Don't assume that they want nothing. I've seen too many situations where IT people say that management doesn't want to do something and then someone puts together a quick business case and it goes through unhampered. But the most important thing here is to make believable and knowledgeable recommendations to the business drivers. Make sure that your recommendations are prudent. Understand what levels of spending the business drivers are making. Know what to recommend and when to recommend it. It's a big deal making sure that you are forecasting your needs correctly and getting them into the budget cycle. Make longer term, comprehensive plans. Do you have your email storage charted out for the next 5 years? Do you have growth projections and timelines that new servers or disks will have to come online? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:11 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, at 10:47pm, Woodrick, Ed wrote: And as to disk drives, I can speak pretty knowledgeably in this situation, there is virtually no storage limitations within Exchange that impacts the per user storage. Yah, and what about when you run out of physical disk space, or tape space, or backup time? Buy more/better equipment, you say, but have you ever worked in small company environment, where investing money in IT can sometimes require something close to an act of Congress? And as to users keeping things forever, that's pretty much hogwash. You don't have our customers, then. We've got several people in several different organizations that have over one *gigabyte* of saved mail data. And we are by no means a large company. That means that even something as small as a TB requires well over 1,000 users. The fact that your regard one terabyte as small indicates that you don't really understand the small business situation, where we often have to beg and plead with the customer to buy a 20 GB tape backup drive. Quote policy is something that should be done on a case-by-case basis. Blanket statements about what is applicable are bogus. However, not having any policy at all is almost sure to cause headaches down the road. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | not | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, | entity or | organization. All information is provided without | warranty of any kind. | _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Don't question the Ed. The original message is still stored using SIS. Each reply is also stored using SIS. -Original Message- From: Hurst, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 9:39 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On your comment about Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! --- I think you might not quite understand the problem with SIS, it is only good for when the email is being sent in transit because as soon as it arrives and the person replies to it with Outlook, bingo no more SIS for that message. My last place of work and current we get roughly 1.3 ratio. Cheers Paul Standards are like toothbrushes, everybody agrees you should have one, but no one wants to use yours -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Yes I've worked in small companies. And I've sold to small companies. I dare say that I understand the dynamics fairly well. Disk space, tape space, and backup time are all simple issues, present them to the purse strings and let them make the decision. 1GB of saved email? You aren't even in the big leagues here. I'd say that well over 50% of the users on this list have one ore more mailboxes with 1GB storage. Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! And as I said, the 90%-10% rule goes to work. No, my regards of a TB as small doesn't mean that I don't know the small business environment, it only means that I work with a large range of customers. But I also know that 1TB isn't that expensive anymore. That's only seven 160GB drives. I've known many small companies with seven drive servers. When 4GB drives were common, it wasn't that odd to have that many drives. Yes, I know that you often have to beg and plead with a customer to get a tape backup. So? That's what I'm saying. The customer (aka business drivers) get to make the decisions. Don't assume that they always want everything. Don't assume that they want nothing. I've seen too many situations where IT people say that management doesn't want to do something and then someone puts together a quick business case and it goes through unhampered. But the most important thing here is to make believable and knowledgeable recommendations to the business drivers. Make sure that your recommendations are prudent. Understand what levels of spending the business drivers are making. Know what to recommend and when to recommend it. It's a big deal making sure that you are forecasting your needs correctly and getting them into the budget cycle. Make longer term, comprehensive plans. Do you have your email storage charted out for the next 5 years? Do you have growth projections and timelines that new servers or disks will have to come online? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:11 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, at 10:47pm, Woodrick, Ed wrote: And as to disk drives, I can speak pretty knowledgeably in this situation, there is virtually no storage limitations within Exchange that impacts the per user storage. Yah, and what about when you run out of physical disk space, or tape space, or backup time? Buy more/better equipment, you say, but have you ever worked in small company environment, where investing money in IT can sometimes require something close to an act of Congress? And as to users keeping things forever, that's pretty much hogwash. You don't have our customers, then. We've got several people in several different organizations that have over one *gigabyte* of saved mail data. And we are by no means a large company. That means that even something as small as a TB requires well over 1,000 users. The fact that your regard one terabyte as small indicates that you don't really understand the small business situation, where we often have to beg and plead with the customer to buy a 20 GB tape backup drive. Quote policy is something that should be done on a case-by-case basis. Blanket statements about what is applicable are bogus. However, not having any policy at all is almost sure to cause headaches down the road. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | not | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, | entity or | organization. All information is provided without | warranty of any kind
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Hi, I would like to add some questions or thoughts here. As an IT professional, business managers have to be educated and 'yes' they must be tuned into ramifications, etc but most of the time business decision makers don't give time to IT until something is broken. Seen strictly as a service based org, which IT is, there has to be some dynamics from both ends of the spectrum, IT and the business managers. A proactive IT manager has to have credibility and trust from the management to present options, etc and carry them out. It is a hard role one finds themself in and the fight always comes down to the CFO and IT manager in the end. This thread is definitely a good one and I might add true. The limitations and work with managers can become a 'burden' IT managers will experience if they are willing to push the envelope and do the proactive technology and work. For the email issue, I allowed no quotas in order to keep Engineering happy detailing the ramifications and hazards. Not only did the store finally take down the volume space but the engineers finally gave up control and realized they were not sys admins nor networking professionals. This not only happened with Email but also with source control. Anyway, that is what I find the largest burden to be overall. It is a constant process of education. Erik L. Vesneski Director - Information Technology www.epicentric.com -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:06 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Like the other Ed is telling you, it shouldn't be your job to make their business decisions. You explain the ramifications of having no quotas currently, what it will mean in the future, and the costs to change things. That is, you present options to management. You should be positioning your job as a service provider, a helper. Do your best to leave the policeman role to those best equipped to handle it, i.e., management. Your customers, the users, will love you more in the morning that way. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:27 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell
RE: Unlimited Quotas
I think Ed understands SIS quite well. -Original Message- From: Hurst, Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 8:39 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On your comment about Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! --- I think you might not quite understand the problem with SIS, it is only good for when the email is being sent in transit because as soon as it arrives and the person replies to it with Outlook, bingo no more SIS for that message. My last place of work and current we get roughly 1.3 ratio. Cheers Paul Standards are like toothbrushes, everybody agrees you should have one, but no one wants to use yours -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Yes I've worked in small companies. And I've sold to small companies. I dare say that I understand the dynamics fairly well. Disk space, tape space, and backup time are all simple issues, present them to the purse strings and let them make the decision. 1GB of saved email? You aren't even in the big leagues here. I'd say that well over 50% of the users on this list have one ore more mailboxes with 1GB storage. Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! And as I said, the 90%-10% rule goes to work. No, my regards of a TB as small doesn't mean that I don't know the small business environment, it only means that I work with a large range of customers. But I also know that 1TB isn't that expensive anymore. That's only seven 160GB drives. I've known many small companies with seven drive servers. When 4GB drives were common, it wasn't that odd to have that many drives. Yes, I know that you often have to beg and plead with a customer to get a tape backup. So? That's what I'm saying. The customer (aka business drivers) get to make the decisions. Don't assume that they always want everything. Don't assume that they want nothing. I've seen too many situations where IT people say that management doesn't want to do something and then someone puts together a quick business case and it goes through unhampered. But the most important thing here is to make believable and knowledgeable recommendations to the business drivers. Make sure that your recommendations are prudent. Understand what levels of spending the business drivers are making. Know what to recommend and when to recommend it. It's a big deal making sure that you are forecasting your needs correctly and getting them into the budget cycle. Make longer term, comprehensive plans. Do you have your email storage charted out for the next 5 years? Do you have growth projections and timelines that new servers or disks will have to come online? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:11 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, at 10:47pm, Woodrick, Ed wrote: And as to disk drives, I can speak pretty knowledgeably in this situation, there is virtually no storage limitations within Exchange that impacts the per user storage. Yah, and what about when you run out of physical disk space, or tape space, or backup time? Buy more/better equipment, you say, but have you ever worked in small company environment, where investing money in IT can sometimes require something close to an act of Congress? And as to users keeping things forever, that's pretty much hogwash. You don't have our customers, then. We've got several people in several different organizations that have over one *gigabyte* of saved mail data. And we are by no means a large company. That means that even something as small as a TB requires well over 1,000 users. The fact that your regard one terabyte as small indicates that you don't really understand the small business situation, where we often have to beg and plead with the customer to buy a 20 GB tape backup drive. Quote policy is something that should be done on a case-by-case basis. Blanket statements about what is applicable are bogus. However, not having any policy at all is almost sure to cause headaches down the road. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | not | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, | entity or | organization. All information is provided without | warranty of any kind. | _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives
RE: Unlimited Quotas
That is not entirely accurate. While it is true that the reply is a different message, the reply also uses SIS in that one copy of the reply is maintained for the sender and all recipients in the same information store database. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Hurst, Paul Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 6:39 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On your comment about Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! --- I think you might not quite understand the problem with SIS, it is only good for when the email is being sent in transit because as soon as it arrives and the person replies to it with Outlook, bingo no more SIS for that message. My last place of work and current we get roughly 1.3 ratio. Cheers Paul Standards are like toothbrushes, everybody agrees you should have one, but no one wants to use yours -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:22 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Yes I've worked in small companies. And I've sold to small companies. I dare say that I understand the dynamics fairly well. Disk space, tape space, and backup time are all simple issues, present them to the purse strings and let them make the decision. 1GB of saved email? You aren't even in the big leagues here. I'd say that well over 50% of the users on this list have one ore more mailboxes with 1GB storage. Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! And as I said, the 90%-10% rule goes to work. No, my regards of a TB as small doesn't mean that I don't know the small business environment, it only means that I work with a large range of customers. But I also know that 1TB isn't that expensive anymore. That's only seven 160GB drives. I've known many small companies with seven drive servers. When 4GB drives were common, it wasn't that odd to have that many drives. Yes, I know that you often have to beg and plead with a customer to get a tape backup. So? That's what I'm saying. The customer (aka business drivers) get to make the decisions. Don't assume that they always want everything. Don't assume that they want nothing. I've seen too many situations where IT people say that management doesn't want to do something and then someone puts together a quick business case and it goes through unhampered. But the most important thing here is to make believable and knowledgeable recommendations to the business drivers. Make sure that your recommendations are prudent. Understand what levels of spending the business drivers are making. Know what to recommend and when to recommend it. It's a big deal making sure that you are forecasting your needs correctly and getting them into the budget cycle. Make longer term, comprehensive plans. Do you have your email storage charted out for the next 5 years? Do you have growth projections and timelines that new servers or disks will have to come online? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:11 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, at 10:47pm, Woodrick, Ed wrote: And as to disk drives, I can speak pretty knowledgeably in this situation, there is virtually no storage limitations within Exchange that impacts the per user storage. Yah, and what about when you run out of physical disk space, or tape space, or backup time? Buy more/better equipment, you say, but have you ever worked in small company environment, where investing money in IT can sometimes require something close to an act of Congress? And as to users keeping things forever, that's pretty much hogwash. You don't have our customers, then. We've got several people in several different organizations that have over one *gigabyte* of saved mail data. And we are by no means a large company. That means that even something as small as a TB requires well over 1,000 users. The fact that your regard one terabyte as small indicates that you don't really understand the small business situation, where we often have to beg and plead with the customer to buy a 20 GB tape backup drive. Quote policy is something that should be done on a case-by-case basis. Blanket statements about what is applicable are bogus. However, not having any policy at all is almost sure to cause headaches down the road. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | not | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, | entity or | organization
RE: Unlimited Quotas
And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell management that I told you so when things break but all they want to hear is how soon will it be fixed. So maybe I am just whining, and should just get over it. So the bottom line is it is OK to use exchange as a database and not worry about it. Jim -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 4:43 PM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I agree as long as there is money to support it. But keep in mind that having a large IS means that there is that much more stuff for lawyers or the FDA (we do drug development) to go after. And if you are going to have an unlimited store it ahs to be managed. Those tools are not free. I man IT shop and unless I get an open ended budget I have to make some decisions. My request for journal/archive software is going unanswered. So all I can do is tell management that both myself and our legal counsel made suggestions. Then I just do my job. And I imagine some of this is due to the fact I come from having used a VAX account that had pretty strict limits (I still use it. Either you managed it or it would lock you out. I know times have changed. Jim -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 2:32 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Why do you pretend to be arrogant enough to be able to dictate the needs of others? You don't seem to have any business drivers to justify your actions. And who is to say that getting additional disk drives for the user email storage isn't out of the question? And as to storage, it has nothing to do with processor and RAM. And most importantly, just because you don't restrict the users storage, doesn't mean that you will run out of space. That's absolutely hogwash, a justification of why many IT shops get such a bad reputation. Your job is to SUPPORT your users, not be a dictator. In the whole scheme of things, a few thousand dollars for some disk space and maybe an upgrade in Exchange editions is petty cash. The BUSINESS driver should not be an IT limit. Exchange really is able to support most business drivers with little difficulty. In the limitation of storage, that should
RE: Unlimited Quotas
With the dumpster, recovery isn't usually a big deal, until users call after a file has been deleted for weeks (and it has passed out of the dumpster).In my organization the expectation was that it was on tape. I don't have the person-hours, disk space or spare servers to do that kind of recovery. My management has been presented repeatedly with those types of options; but balk at the cost (particularly when our file servers have a working backup system and tape rotation system that already provides the type of retention that my user community seems to want). So in my environment, I find it better to educate set expectations up-front. This helps provide the services that my community needs, and keep costs down as well - which is something I get hammered with all the time. This is a business need too! What everyone is saying about supporting business needs is fine and true; however sometimes the business doesn't have the money to pay for every option... Just my 2 cents. Flames offline please... Arron === Arron S. King Network Systems Administrator Ohio Dominican University [EMAIL PROTECTED] v: 614.251.4515 f: 614.252.2650 -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 10:48 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Why is recovery so difficult? If you've got the dumpster turned on, then recovery is something the user can do without fairly easily. Never a need for brick backup. -Original Message- From: King, Arron S. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:33 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas One I have used with some success is the use of Exchange as a file server. The larger their quota is, the more important things tend to wind up there. If they start using it as a file server, and want something restored they are hosed. (unless you are doing a coughbrick-level backup/cough, or can take the time/find the space to restore the entire store...) Good Luck! === Arron S. King Network Systems Administrator Ohio Dominican University [EMAIL PROTECTED] v: 614.251.4515 f: 614.252.2650 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, at 10:47pm, Woodrick, Ed wrote: And as to disk drives, I can speak pretty knowledgeably in this situation, there is virtually no storage limitations within Exchange that impacts the per user storage. Yah, and what about when you run out of physical disk space, or tape space, or backup time? Buy more/better equipment, you say, but have you ever worked in small company environment, where investing money in IT can sometimes require something close to an act of Congress? And as to users keeping things forever, that's pretty much hogwash. You don't have our customers, then. We've got several people in several different organizations that have over one *gigabyte* of saved mail data. And we are by no means a large company. That means that even something as small as a TB requires well over 1,000 users. The fact that your regard one terabyte as small indicates that you don't really understand the small business situation, where we often have to beg and plead with the customer to buy a 20 GB tape backup drive. Quote policy is something that should be done on a case-by-case basis. Blanket statements about what is applicable are bogus. However, not having any policy at all is almost sure to cause headaches down the road. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
That's absolutely correct. If business is presented with the situation, then they get to make the decision. If they don't think that it's worth the cost, then that, as many other things just don't get done. -Original Message- From: King, Arron S. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 8:59 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas With the dumpster, recovery isn't usually a big deal, until users call after a file has been deleted for weeks (and it has passed out of the dumpster).In my organization the expectation was that it was on tape. I don't have the person-hours, disk space or spare servers to do that kind of recovery. My management has been presented repeatedly with those types of options; but balk at the cost (particularly when our file servers have a working backup system and tape rotation system that already provides the type of retention that my user community seems to want). So in my environment, I find it better to educate set expectations up-front. This helps provide the services that my community needs, and keep costs down as well - which is something I get hammered with all the time. This is a business need too! What everyone is saying about supporting business needs is fine and true; however sometimes the business doesn't have the money to pay for every option... Just my 2 cents. Flames offline please... Arron === Arron S. King Network Systems Administrator Ohio Dominican University [EMAIL PROTECTED] v: 614.251.4515 f: 614.252.2650 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
-Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 8:27 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. _ 10MB of information in the deleted items really isn't a big deal. Some people don't empty their trash cans on purpose, others think that it's automatically deleted. It's a user education thing. I know that I was recently working on a report and would throw old copies of the document in the real trashcan. Folks knew not to empty my trashcan until the report was handed in. I was using the trash can as a temporary archive. And while he's the CFO, he is mistaken with his analogy. A trashcan is a trashcan, it's not the Inbox. And yes, there are people who will let their desktop fill up with junk mail. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell management that I told you so when things break but all they want to hear is how soon will it be fixed. So maybe I am just whining, and should just get over it. So the bottom line is it is OK to use exchange as a database and not worry about it. __ Yes it's okay to use Exchange/Outlook as a database. That's part of the positioning from Microsoft. It's part of the knowledge management stuff. As to not worrying about it, I can't say that. It's always IT's job to worry about everything. But it doesn't need to be high on the radar screen. When your storage reaches 75% capacity, it's probably time to start raising a flag, either more storage or less to store. The most important part would probably be to make sure that your organization has a good solid document retention policy. You might scuff and say that's a lawyer type of thing, but wait and see how much crap you have to do it you get subpoenaed! You want to make sure that you are following the rules of the retention policy all along and that you aren't caught doing an Enron! _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Yes I've worked in small companies. And I've sold to small companies. I dare say that I understand the dynamics fairly well. Disk space, tape space, and backup time are all simple issues, present them to the purse strings and let them make the decision. 1GB of saved email? You aren't even in the big leagues here. I'd say that well over 50% of the users on this list have one ore more mailboxes with 1GB storage. Oh, and by the way, how much is that actually taking up on your server? 1GB? Not with single instance storage! And as I said, the 90%-10% rule goes to work. No, my regards of a TB as small doesn't mean that I don't know the small business environment, it only means that I work with a large range of customers. But I also know that 1TB isn't that expensive anymore. That's only seven 160GB drives. I've known many small companies with seven drive servers. When 4GB drives were common, it wasn't that odd to have that many drives. Yes, I know that you often have to beg and plead with a customer to get a tape backup. So? That's what I'm saying. The customer (aka business drivers) get to make the decisions. Don't assume that they always want everything. Don't assume that they want nothing. I've seen too many situations where IT people say that management doesn't want to do something and then someone puts together a quick business case and it goes through unhampered. But the most important thing here is to make believable and knowledgeable recommendations to the business drivers. Make sure that your recommendations are prudent. Understand what levels of spending the business drivers are making. Know what to recommend and when to recommend it. It's a big deal making sure that you are forecasting your needs correctly and getting them into the budget cycle. Make longer term, comprehensive plans. Do you have your email storage charted out for the next 5 years? Do you have growth projections and timelines that new servers or disks will have to come online? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:11 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, at 10:47pm, Woodrick, Ed wrote: And as to disk drives, I can speak pretty knowledgeably in this situation, there is virtually no storage limitations within Exchange that impacts the per user storage. Yah, and what about when you run out of physical disk space, or tape space, or backup time? Buy more/better equipment, you say, but have you ever worked in small company environment, where investing money in IT can sometimes require something close to an act of Congress? And as to users keeping things forever, that's pretty much hogwash. You don't have our customers, then. We've got several people in several different organizations that have over one *gigabyte* of saved mail data. And we are by no means a large company. That means that even something as small as a TB requires well over 1,000 users. The fact that your regard one terabyte as small indicates that you don't really understand the small business situation, where we often have to beg and plead with the customer to buy a 20 GB tape backup drive. Quote policy is something that should be done on a case-by-case basis. Blanket statements about what is applicable are bogus. However, not having any policy at all is almost sure to cause headaches down the road. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | not | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, | entity or | organization. All information is provided without | warranty of any kind. | _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Like the other Ed is telling you, it shouldn't be your job to make their business decisions. You explain the ramifications of having no quotas currently, what it will mean in the future, and the costs to change things. That is, you present options to management. You should be positioning your job as a service provider, a helper. Do your best to leave the policeman role to those best equipped to handle it, i.e., management. Your customers, the users, will love you more in the morning that way. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:27 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell management that I told you so when things break but all they want to hear is how soon will it be fixed. So maybe I am just whining, and should just get over it. So the bottom line is it is OK to use exchange as a database and not worry about it. Jim -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 4:43 PM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I agree as long as there is money to support it. But keep in mind that having a large IS means that there is that much more stuff for lawyers or the FDA (we do drug development) to go after. And if you are going to have an unlimited store it ahs to be managed. Those tools are not free. I man IT shop and unless I get an open ended budget I have to make some decisions. My request for journal/archive software is going unanswered. So all I can do is tell management that both myself and our legal counsel made suggestions. Then I just do my job. And I imagine some of this is due to the fact I come from having used a VAX account that had pretty strict limits (I still use it. Either you managed it or it would lock you out. I know times have changed. Jim -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 2:32 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Why do you pretend to be arrogant enough to be able to dictate the needs of others? You don't seem to have any business
RE: Unlimited Quotas
I am finally getting management to make some decisions. But they have a habit of putting things off until we are in a crisis situation. I hate to have to wait until all hell breaks loose and then both management AND the users are throwing a fit. Jim -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:06 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Like the other Ed is telling you, it shouldn't be your job to make their business decisions. You explain the ramifications of having no quotas currently, what it will mean in the future, and the costs to change things. That is, you present options to management. You should be positioning your job as a service provider, a helper. Do your best to leave the policeman role to those best equipped to handle it, i.e., management. Your customers, the users, will love you more in the morning that way. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:27 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell management that I told you so when things break but all they want to hear is how soon will it be fixed. So maybe I am just whining, and should just get over it. So the bottom line is it is OK to use exchange as a database and not worry about it. Jim -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 4:43 PM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I agree as long as there is money to support it. But keep in mind that having a large IS means that there is that much more stuff for lawyers or the FDA (we do drug development) to go after. And if you are going to have an unlimited store it ahs to be managed. Those tools are not free. I man IT shop and unless I get an open ended budget I have to make some decisions. My request for journal/archive software is going unanswered. So all I can do is tell management that both myself and our legal counsel made
RE: Unlimited Quotas
It is possible that your best option is to do as I suggest and give them the options well in advance of a crisis and then let the crisis happen. You can even warn them along the way if you want. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:12 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I am finally getting management to make some decisions. But they have a habit of putting things off until we are in a crisis situation. I hate to have to wait until all hell breaks loose and then both management AND the users are throwing a fit. Jim -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:06 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Like the other Ed is telling you, it shouldn't be your job to make their business decisions. You explain the ramifications of having no quotas currently, what it will mean in the future, and the costs to change things. That is, you present options to management. You should be positioning your job as a service provider, a helper. Do your best to leave the policeman role to those best equipped to handle it, i.e., management. Your customers, the users, will love you more in the morning that way. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:27 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell management that I told you so when things break but all they want to hear is how soon will it be fixed. So maybe I am just whining, and should just get over it. So the bottom line is it is OK to use exchange as a database and not worry about it. Jim -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 4:43 PM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I agree as long as there is money to support
RE: Unlimited Quotas
And then when the users come yelling, just point the finger to the direction where blame goes. It's rather amazing how people won't go complaining to a CEO or other decision maker level person. -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:14 PM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It is possible that your best option is to do as I suggest and give them the options well in advance of a crisis and then let the crisis happen. You can even warn them along the way if you want. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:12 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I am finally getting management to make some decisions. But they have a habit of putting things off until we are in a crisis situation. I hate to have to wait until all hell breaks loose and then both management AND the users are throwing a fit. Jim -Original Message- From: Ed Crowley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:06 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Like the other Ed is telling you, it shouldn't be your job to make their business decisions. You explain the ramifications of having no quotas currently, what it will mean in the future, and the costs to change things. That is, you present options to management. You should be positioning your job as a service provider, a helper. Do your best to leave the policeman role to those best equipped to handle it, i.e., management. Your customers, the users, will love you more in the morning that way. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP kcCC+I Tech Consultant hp Services Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of James Liddil Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:27 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. No. But I had no idea things would get the way they have. I do have mailbox management set to delete mail from the deleted items every seven days. Looking at the recent run shows a few users who had over 10 megs of stuff in there. So users need more training. Easier said than done. So I had a discussion with the CFO about this. His analogy is that never emptying the trash is like letting junk mail build up on your table until it breaks. Do people do this? And if they want to then the decision will be made to not spend the money on raises but on more computer hardware/software. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. In a perfect world. I only wish I had the time, resources and energy to do what you say. You are right that we want to stay innovative, but let me tell you that there is as much stagnation as in a big company. I am a scientist (pharmacologist) by training and spent many years doing drug development research. Now I am a computer geek and I understand the importance of computers as a tool for doing research. I have been on both sides and still am. But computers like any scientific instrument require a certain amount of maintenance etc. Too often users feel computers are not like other tools and need no maintenance/tuning. As much as I try to make a case to management to pay for more training, tools etc. they decide to spend money on other things, even though we are a bioinformatics driven business. So I have to do things that help me maintain my sanity/life. Sure I can tell management that I told you so when things break but all they want to hear is how soon will it be fixed. So maybe I am just whining
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Fair enough, he did however say he had 25 users:-) He would need to keep the 16 GB limit in mind. Curbing the attachments will help to stretch the amount of actual mail you can have. Sander -Original Message- From: John Steniger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:40 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I believe this applies to E2K as well as 5.5 - keep in mind if you don't have the Enterprise version of Exchange, you do have a software limit as to how big your IS can get (16g) - disk space won't help you with that. We hit this on our server several weeks ago - it is not pretty. John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Sander Van Butzelaar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:36 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It's mostly a business call. Hard drive space is cheap and there are various backup systems that cater for large mail stores. The admin job is to provide your users with the best possible email system, so if they need to go back all the time to old mails you may find yourself in hot water if you put restrictions on. Of coarse money also plays a role. I would let management make the call to go cheap and small or large and expensive, let them live with it as there are benefits to both ways. Sander -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:18 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Good point =). But we never had limits before - and this led to us hiting the 16g limit with essentially 10 main users having 1-3g of email a piece. 'Twas very ugly trying to convince people to let go ;). John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Sander Van Butzelaar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:47 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Fair enough, he did however say he had 25 users:-) He would need to keep the 16 GB limit in mind. Curbing the attachments will help to stretch the amount of actual mail you can have. Sander -Original Message- From: John Steniger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:40 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I believe this applies to E2K as well as 5.5 - keep in mind if you don't have the Enterprise version of Exchange, you do have a software limit as to how big your IS can get (16g) - disk space won't help you with that. We hit this on our server several weeks ago - it is not pretty. John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Sander Van Butzelaar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:36 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It's mostly a business call. Hard drive space is cheap and there are various backup systems that cater for large mail stores. The admin job is to provide your users with the best possible email system, so if they need to go back all the time to old mails you may find yourself in hot water if you put restrictions on. Of coarse money also plays a role. I would let management make the call to go cheap and small or large and expensive, let them live with it as there are benefits to both ways. Sander -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:18 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Also keep in mind the limit on folder size in the Outlook client... You will probably reach that before the server storage limit. Cheers Greg -Original Message- From: John Steniger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 14:51 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Good point =). But we never had limits before - and this led to us hiting the 16g limit with essentially 10 main users having 1-3g of email a piece. 'Twas very ugly trying to convince people to let go ;). John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Sander Van Butzelaar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:47 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Fair enough, he did however say he had 25 users:-) He would need to keep the 16 GB limit in mind. Curbing the attachments will help to stretch the amount of actual mail you can have. Sander -Original Message- From: John Steniger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:40 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I believe this applies to E2K as well as 5.5 - keep in mind if you don't have the Enterprise version of Exchange, you do have a software limit as to how big your IS can get (16g) - disk space won't help you with that. We hit this on our server several weeks ago - it is not pretty. John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Sander Van Butzelaar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:36 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It's mostly a business call. Hard drive space is cheap and there are various backup systems that cater for large mail stores. The admin job is to provide your users with the best possible email system, so if they need to go back all the time to old mails you may find yourself in hot water if you put restrictions on. Of coarse money also plays a role. I would let management make the call to go cheap and small or large and expensive, let them live with it as there are benefits to both ways. Sander -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:18 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Please note that neither International Power plc nor the sender accepts any responsibility for any viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments. It is therefore your responsibility to ensure that your systems have adequate protection against virus infection. The information contained
RE: Unlimited Quotas
I see the same situation here. I have a few users with one folder (the inbox), with thousands of messages and large numbers of attachments. Users are only warned about being over limit. Jim -Original Message- From: John Steniger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:51 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Good point =). But we never had limits before - and this led to us hiting the 16g limit with essentially 10 main users having 1-3g of email a piece. 'Twas very ugly trying to convince people to let go ;). John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Sander Van Butzelaar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:47 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Fair enough, he did however say he had 25 users:-) He would need to keep the 16 GB limit in mind. Curbing the attachments will help to stretch the amount of actual mail you can have. Sander -Original Message- From: John Steniger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:40 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I believe this applies to E2K as well as 5.5 - keep in mind if you don't have the Enterprise version of Exchange, you do have a software limit as to how big your IS can get (16g) - disk space won't help you with that. We hit this on our server several weeks ago - it is not pretty. John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Sander Van Butzelaar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:36 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It's mostly a business call. Hard drive space is cheap and there are various backup systems that cater for large mail stores. The admin job is to provide your users with the best possible email system, so if they need to go back all the time to old mails you may find yourself in hot water if you put restrictions on. Of coarse money also plays a role. I would let management make the call to go cheap and small or large and expensive, let them live with it as there are benefits to both ways. Sander -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:18 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp
RE: Unlimited Quotas
MTC -- I would start asking your users why do they need unlimited space to store emails? Depending on your quotas/limits I could see where this might be a problem if they get large files (CAD drawings, spreadsheets, powerpoint presentations, etc.). In that case they should just save the large files off to disk and delete the email. If they REALLY, REALLY need to keep it in email then have them archive it off to a PST (no grunts from the gallery Ed). PST's have their purpose. Just make sure they put it in a location where it can be backed up. Otherwise I am with you - give them limits - make them realistic for your environment - and force them to manage their accounts. Yes there will be exceptions (the President of the company, CFO, and other big wigs), but for the rest of the org (no matter how big it is) keep your employees on a leash. If you don't sure shootin the lack of limits will be abused. Regards. Nate Couch EDS Messaging -- From: Sander Van Butzelaar Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 5, 2002 08:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas It's mostly a business call. Hard drive space is cheap and there are various backup systems that cater for large mail stores. The admin job is to provide your users with the best possible email system, so if they need to go back all the time to old mails you may find yourself in hot water if you put restrictions on. Of coarse money also plays a role. I would let management make the call to go cheap and small or large and expensive, let them live with it as there are benefits to both ways. Sander -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:18 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unlimited Quotas
On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, at 9:18am, James Liddil wrote: I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. [...snip...] So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Also, keep in mind, that while your existing usage may be relatively low, down the road, it will grow, and it is much harder to implement quotes and other limits after you have already started to exceed them. In other words, it is much easier (and, therefore, cheaper) to do things right, right from the start then to try and change things later. You might also ask, Can you justify why we should *not* implement quotas? No quotas means user resource consumption can potentially grow without bounds. That means you will have to keep buying additional resources (disks, RAM, whole servers, machine rooms, etc.). What is the business justification for that kind of policy? (Whether or not being this direct with your management is a good idea depends on your particular situation, of course.) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
I agree - the situation we had here was that limits were never established when Exchange was installed - people will convince themselves they need everything they've ever received if they're given the chance (this applies to file storage, as well). In our case, it was mostly a training issue - once we showed users how to archive, and how to remove large attachments to disk, and how to delete their deleted items folder, they became (with a couple exceptions) quite cooperative. John -Original Message- From: Couch, Nate [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 10:12 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas MTC -- I would start asking your users why do they need unlimited space to store emails? Depending on your quotas/limits I could see where this might be a problem if they get large files (CAD drawings, spreadsheets, powerpoint presentations, etc.). In that case they should just save the large files off to disk and delete the email. If they REALLY, REALLY need to keep it in email then have them archive it off to a PST (no grunts from the gallery Ed). PST's have their purpose. Just make sure they put it in a location where it can be backed up. Otherwise I am with you - give them limits - make them realistic for your environment - and force them to manage their accounts. Yes there will be exceptions (the President of the company, CFO, and other big wigs), but for the rest of the org (no matter how big it is) keep your employees on a leash. If you don't sure shootin the lack of limits will be abused. Regards. Nate Couch EDS Messaging -- From: Sander Van Butzelaar Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 5, 2002 08:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: Unlimited Quotas It's mostly a business call. Hard drive space is cheap and there are various backup systems that cater for large mail stores. The admin job is to provide your users with the best possible email system, so if they need to go back all the time to old mails you may find yourself in hot water if you put restrictions on. Of coarse money also plays a role. I would let management make the call to go cheap and small or large and expensive, let them live with it as there are benefits to both ways. Sander -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 03:18 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Don't forget the backup and restore window as well. Obviously a large IS is going to take a lot longer to restore than a small one. -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 6:18 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unlimited Quotas
For 25 users? How much disk space do you have? 9 GB? Really... if there's no absolute need for quotas, bag the idea. Missy - Original Message - From: James Liddil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Exchange Discussions [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:18 AM Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Why do you pretend to be arrogant enough to be able to dictate the needs of others? You don't seem to have any business drivers to justify your actions. And who is to say that getting additional disk drives for the user email storage isn't out of the question? And as to storage, it has nothing to do with processor and RAM. And most importantly, just because you don't restrict the users storage, doesn't mean that you will run out of space. That's absolutely hogwash, a justification of why many IT shops get such a bad reputation. Your job is to SUPPORT your users, not be a dictator. In the whole scheme of things, a few thousand dollars for some disk space and maybe an upgrade in Exchange editions is petty cash. The BUSINESS driver should not be an IT limit. Exchange really is able to support most business drivers with little difficulty. In the limitation of storage, that should be completely dictated by you organizations Document Retention Policy, which should be dictated by the lawyers. And it shouldn't even be an IT function to enforce, even if you can. -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:18 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Not to get into a war of words (as this appears to be something near and dear to your heart), often IT is put in the position to have to: A) Save money by not spending any, period (on Exchange or any other type of upgrades, or disk, or what have you..) B) Provide virtually unlimited service (unlimited file share, unlimited email storage, etc) These two opposing conditions are imposed on us by those far more important than myself in an organization. In an organization, the fact that it is sometimes impossible to meet these two criteria at the same time if often lost on those who make these decisions. It happened in our organization, and it was decided that limits should be imposed. Did we run out of space directly because we had no limits to begin with? I happen to believe no limits encourages lazy usage (storing everything, to the point where you can't remember if you need it, so you keep it) - I certainly may be mistaken. It seems clear to me that if reasonable limits are imposed, and adjusted as needs change, one can get much more use out of a system. To speak to another of your points, sometimes more disk drives don't do the trick. Exchange (not Enterprise) imposes a software limit on the information store. Disk won't help if you hit that. I agree with you that you won't necessarily run out of space if you restrict storage. However, I would say its rather likely, from my experience. It may not happen within a week, or even a year, but users aren't typically concerned with keeping their file and email storage neat and clean so to not fill up the server - they have their own jobs to worry about. Maybe the users in your organization are different. John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 2:32 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Why do you pretend to be arrogant enough to be able to dictate the needs of others? You don't seem to have any business drivers to justify your actions. And who is to say that getting additional disk drives for the user email storage isn't out of the question? And as to storage, it has nothing to do with processor and RAM. And most importantly, just because you don't restrict the users storage, doesn't mean that you will run out of space. That's absolutely hogwash, a justification of why many IT shops get such a bad reputation. Your job is to SUPPORT your users, not be a dictator. In the whole scheme of things, a few thousand dollars for some disk space and maybe an upgrade in Exchange editions is petty cash. The BUSINESS driver should not be an IT limit. Exchange really is able to support most business drivers with little difficulty. In the limitation of storage, that should be completely dictated by you organizations Document Retention Policy, which should be dictated by the lawyers. And it shouldn't even be an IT function to enforce, even if you can. -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:18 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
When asked this question I've always gone with what Ed has said only less blunt, the business must decide what it wants to or can afford to fork out for and then the business must be told what it will get for its money. The Exchange designer must present all the available options to the business which will then decide, often by inference rather than specifically what the answer will be. In the case of Exchange the options spread to the workstations, the support teams and the file servers, something often overlooked when options are being submitted. On occasion there have been situations where the business has been told that £/$x,000 will buy them x MB per user and anything over that would need to be stored on the file server or local machines in PSTs. The file server has then started creaking with people storing their PSTs and PSTs have gone west causing additional support calls which quickly ended up costing more than a bigger/more server(s). Often it is a failure in the Exchange Designer or Administrator to fully document the ramifications of the business not spending the appropriate amount of money on an Exchange Server. Often it is a failure of the users ever to hit the delete key. Usually it's a failure of both. We never get the money we want for our Exchange servers and the users never get the storage they want in their mailboxes. -Original Message- From: John Steniger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 05 July 2002 20:17 To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Not to get into a war of words (as this appears to be something near and dear to your heart), often IT is put in the position to have to: A) Save money by not spending any, period (on Exchange or any other type of upgrades, or disk, or what have you..) B) Provide virtually unlimited service (unlimited file share, unlimited email storage, etc) These two opposing conditions are imposed on us by those far more important than myself in an organization. In an organization, the fact that it is sometimes impossible to meet these two criteria at the same time if often lost on those who make these decisions. It happened in our organization, and it was decided that limits should be imposed. Did we run out of space directly because we had no limits to begin with? I happen to believe no limits encourages lazy usage (storing everything, to the point where you can't remember if you need it, so you keep it) - I certainly may be mistaken. It seems clear to me that if reasonable limits are imposed, and adjusted as needs change, one can get much more use out of a system. To speak to another of your points, sometimes more disk drives don't do the trick. Exchange (not Enterprise) imposes a software limit on the information store. Disk won't help if you hit that. I agree with you that you won't necessarily run out of space if you restrict storage. However, I would say its rather likely, from my experience. It may not happen within a week, or even a year, but users aren't typically concerned with keeping their file and email storage neat and clean so to not fill up the server - they have their own jobs to worry about. Maybe the users in your organization are different. John J. Steniger -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 2:32 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Why do you pretend to be arrogant enough to be able to dictate the needs of others? You don't seem to have any business drivers to justify your actions. And who is to say that getting additional disk drives for the user email storage isn't out of the question? And as to storage, it has nothing to do with processor and RAM. And most importantly, just because you don't restrict the users storage, doesn't mean that you will run out of space. That's absolutely hogwash, a justification of why many IT shops get such a bad reputation. Your job is to SUPPORT your users, not be a dictator. In the whole scheme of things, a few thousand dollars for some disk space and maybe an upgrade in Exchange editions is petty cash. The BUSINESS driver should not be an IT limit. Exchange really is able to support most business drivers with little difficulty. In the limitation of storage, that should be completely dictated by you organizations Document Retention Policy, which should be dictated by the lawyers. And it shouldn't even be an IT function to enforce, even if you can. -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:18 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single
RE: Unlimited Quotas
We are a small venture capital based biotech firm. You would be amazed at the number of files we have on the server and in e-mail. People routinely send large PowerPoint shows and then they end up on the server and on the exchange users sent box. I really don't want to get into numbers but I was amazed at what I found this week. And we have large storage needs. We have instrumentation that can generate 5 gigs of data a day. Users simply want to save everything and always have it live. Jim -Original Message- From: missy koslosky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:50 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: Re: Unlimited Quotas For 25 users? How much disk space do you have? 9 GB? Really... if there's no absolute need for quotas, bag the idea. Missy - Original Message - From: James Liddil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Exchange Discussions [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:18 AM Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Unlimited Quotas
And the whole idea is that as a support shop, your job is to support. Has management told you to put limits? When the email or file system was presented to them, did you say that there were going to be limits. Your job is to keep people from doing really stupid (not what you think is stupid, I mean really stupid) things that impact IT and then to respond to, or be proactive in creating solutions to business problems. You have presented no cases that justify any limits. You've actually presented some pretty good cases for not having limits. Your company is small, probably to get away from the large staffs and stay innovative. This means that you really shouldn't be stifling innovation, don't get in people's way, HELP them do their job. If you see something that they are doing and there is a better way, help them learn a better way. If they need to store 2 GB in the mail server, let them. If they are keeping a backup of their disk, then advise them that there are better ways, but more importantly, make those better ways available and very easy for them to use. -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 4:43 PM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas I agree as long as there is money to support it. But keep in mind that having a large IS means that there is that much more stuff for lawyers or the FDA (we do drug development) to go after. And if you are going to have an unlimited store it ahs to be managed. Those tools are not free. I man IT shop and unless I get an open ended budget I have to make some decisions. My request for journal/archive software is going unanswered. So all I can do is tell management that both myself and our legal counsel made suggestions. Then I just do my job. And I imagine some of this is due to the fact I come from having used a VAX account that had pretty strict limits (I still use it. Either you managed it or it would lock you out. I know times have changed. Jim -Original Message- From: Woodrick, Ed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 2:32 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas Why do you pretend to be arrogant enough to be able to dictate the needs of others? You don't seem to have any business drivers to justify your actions. And who is to say that getting additional disk drives for the user email storage isn't out of the question? And as to storage, it has nothing to do with processor and RAM. And most importantly, just because you don't restrict the users storage, doesn't mean that you will run out of space. That's absolutely hogwash, a justification of why many IT shops get such a bad reputation. Your job is to SUPPORT your users, not be a dictator. In the whole scheme of things, a few thousand dollars for some disk space and maybe an upgrade in Exchange editions is petty cash. The BUSINESS driver should not be an IT limit. Exchange really is able to support most business drivers with little difficulty. In the limitation of storage, that should be completely dictated by you organizations Document Retention Policy, which should be dictated by the lawyers. And it shouldn't even be an IT function to enforce, even if you can. -Original Message- From: James Liddil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:18 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: Unlimited Quotas I am being asked to justify why I have set quotas for users on our E2K server with 25 users. Things that come to mind are that if we give users unlimited stores, we will have to buy more disk space in time. Also we have a single processor server with 512 ram. So I would make a WAG and say that we will be looking at a second processor and more RAM. I am already looking at more RAM since our server is paging quite a bit. And as we implement archiving and journaling this will impact disk space as well as the backup (time, number of tapes). I also realize that allowing unlimited space leads to users never managing their e-mail. So besides these reasons are there any other reasons that I should be thinking about? Thanks. Jim Liddil _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ List
RE: Unlimited Quotas
Why is recovery so difficult? If you've got the dumpster turned on, then recovery is something the user can do without fairly easily. Never a need for brick backup. -Original Message- From: King, Arron S. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Posted At: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:33 AM Posted To: Microsoft Exchange Conversation: Unlimited Quotas Subject: RE: Unlimited Quotas One I have used with some success is the use of Exchange as a file server. The larger their quota is, the more important things tend to wind up there. If they start using it as a file server, and want something restored they are hosed. (unless you are doing a coughbrick-level backup/cough, or can take the time/find the space to restore the entire store...) Good Luck! === Arron S. King Network Systems Administrator Ohio Dominican University [EMAIL PROTECTED] v: 614.251.4515 f: 614.252.2650 _ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Archives: http://www.swynk.com/sitesearch/search.asp To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
