subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Honest answers \(was comments on Gable's editorial\)"

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 

[...]
 
 Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I 
have 
  understood it has already 
been 
 lost. There is very little there left preserving, and that 
  which is worthy of preserving 
   can 
 best be saved outside the context of the organization.
 

So which branch of Christianity has done the best at 
preserving 
  the oral tradition?
   
   
   
   I am not discussing Christianity here, so I will not bother 
  responding to this question.
  
  You're complaining about oral traditions and their preservation 
and 
  about the lousy job of this that the TMO has done.
 
 
 
 That interpretation is justified neither by what I wrote nor by 
what I intended.
 
 First, I'm not discussing oral traditions; you have inserted that 
topic into the string on 
 your own accord. 

What do YOU mean by purity of the teaching, if not the oral 
tradition of teaching TM?



 
 Second, I'm not complaining. I am analyzing, and the result of my 
analysis is somewhat 
 negative with regard to the content. That may seem like a 
distinction without a difference 
 to you, but for me it is significant.
 

Seeing how I'm still stuck about the distinction you make between 
the purity of the tradition and the purity of the [oral] 
tradition of TM, I guess I'm REALLY missing your point.


  
   
   

The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral 
  tradition. That is NOT the case 
for ANY major branch of the Christian religion, and it shows, 
  IMHO.

Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of 
time 
  remains to be seen. 
What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not all, other 
approaches 
  have not seemed to 
work.

Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous 
  interviews with TMers. Look 
   at 
Chopra's own meditation technique, and how he presents it to 
  people. We can see the 
results of the telephone effect immediately (within a 
generation 
  of second-handness).

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't 
deemed 
  central to his 
   organization, 
as far as I can tell, because his charitable works are the 
only 
  pretty much the only thing 
discussed here.
   
   
   
   Your penchant for straw man arguments could take up a lot of 
band 
  width at this rate.
  
  
  Your inability to address my points takes up at least as much if 
not 
  more.
 
 
 
 Ho hum.
 
 
  
   
   

MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what 
he 
  believes is important, 
and I find it amusing that people criticize him for building 
an 
  organization specifically  
designed to preserve that which he deems most important.
   
   
   
   Surely you jest! Maharishi has changed his game plan more times 
  than I can recall, as has 
   been observed time and again in this forum. At the most obvious 
  level, what has become 
   of the priority to have large numbers of ordinary people 
  meditating, or large numbers of 
   Sidhas flying together, etc, etc.?
  
  And so? Its HIS game plan to change, and his teaching method to 
  change. Purity of the teaching is his to define, as well...
 
 
 
 Well, which is it then? Either he is consistent as you claim in 
your previous post, or it 
 doesn't matter because it's HIS game plan to change. Get back to 
me when you have 
 decided.
 

Or he has some idea of what changes are good to make to his own 
teaching method and what changes are not good to make to his own 
teaching method that those of us who aren't the original authors of 
MMY's teaching method may not catch?

Get back to me when you have a clue.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-23 Thread L B Shriver

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
 
 [...]
  
  Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I 
 have 
   understood it has already 
 been 
  lost. There is very little there left preserving, and that 
   which is worthy of preserving 
can 
  best be saved outside the context of the organization.
  
 
 So which branch of Christianity has done the best at 
 preserving 
   the oral tradition?



I am not discussing Christianity here, so I will not bother 
   responding to this question.
   
   You're complaining about oral traditions and their preservation 
 and 
   about the lousy job of this that the TMO has done.
  
  
  
  That interpretation is justified neither by what I wrote nor by 
 what I intended.
  
  First, I'm not discussing oral traditions; you have inserted that 
 topic into the string on 
  your own accord. 
 
 What do YOU mean by purity of the teaching, if not the oral 
 tradition of teaching TM?



At the risk of being redundant, I will once again attempt to point out that the 
topic of oral 
traditions was introduced by you, not by me. I was not discussing oral 
traditions, but 
rather the purity of the teaching in the TMO. These topics are not identical 
unless one 
defines them to be at the outset and proceeds on that basis. As I have said in 
other posts, 
in my opinion there is more involved in the purity of the teaching than the 
specific 
content, part of which by the way is strictly oral tradition, and part of which 
is not.


 
 
 
  
  Second, I'm not complaining. I am analyzing, and the result of my 
 analysis is somewhat 
  negative with regard to the content. That may seem like a 
 distinction without a difference 
  to you, but for me it is significant.
  
 
 Seeing how I'm still stuck about the distinction you make between 
 the purity of the tradition and the purity of the [oral] 
 tradition of TM, I guess I'm REALLY missing your point.



You are, and there's not much I can do to help if you are unwilling to read 
these posts 
more conscientiously.


 
 
   


 
 The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral 
   tradition. That is NOT the case 
 for ANY major branch of the Christian religion, and it shows, 
   IMHO.
 
 Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of 
 time 
   remains to be seen. 
 What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not all, other 
 approaches 
   have not seemed to 
 work.
 
 Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous 
   interviews with TMers. Look 
at 
 Chopra's own meditation technique, and how he presents it to 
   people. We can see the 
 results of the telephone effect immediately (within a 
 generation 
   of second-handness).
 
 Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't 
 deemed 
   central to his 
organization, 
 as far as I can tell, because his charitable works are the 
 only 
   pretty much the only thing 
 discussed here.



Your penchant for straw man arguments could take up a lot of 
 band 
   width at this rate.
   
   
   Your inability to address my points takes up at least as much if 
 not 
   more.
  
  
  
  Ho hum.
  
  
   


 
 MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what 
 he 
   believes is important, 
 and I find it amusing that people criticize him for building 
 an 
   organization specifically  
 designed to preserve that which he deems most important.



Surely you jest! Maharishi has changed his game plan more times 
   than I can recall, as has 
been observed time and again in this forum. At the most obvious 
   level, what has become 
of the priority to have large numbers of ordinary people 
   meditating, or large numbers of 
Sidhas flying together, etc, etc.?
   
   And so? Its HIS game plan to change, and his teaching method to 
   change. Purity of the teaching is his to define, as well...
  
  
  
  Well, which is it then? Either he is consistent as you claim in 
 your previous post, or it 
  doesn't matter because it's HIS game plan to change. Get back to 
 me when you have 
  decided.
  
 
 Or he has some idea of what changes are good to make to his own 
 teaching method and what changes are not good to make to his own 
 teaching method that those of us who aren't the original authors of 
 MMY's teaching method may not catch?
 
 Get back to me when you have a clue.



Sorry, you are already so far down the slippery slope of pissing contests that 
I'm afraid I 
won't be able to find you.

L B S




To subscribe, send a

[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

[...]
You're complaining about oral traditions and their 
preservation 
  and 
about the lousy job of this that the TMO has done.
   
   
   
   That interpretation is justified neither by what I wrote nor by 
  what I intended.
   
   First, I'm not discussing oral traditions; you have inserted 
that 
  topic into the string on 
   your own accord. 
  
  What do YOU mean by purity of the teaching, if not the oral 
  tradition of teaching TM?
 
 
 
 At the risk of being redundant, I will once again attempt to point 
out that the topic of oral 
 traditions was introduced by you, not by me. I was not 
discussing oral traditions, but 
 rather the purity of the teaching in the TMO. These topics are 
not identical unless one 
 defines them to be at the outset and proceeds on that basis. As I 
have said in other posts, 
 in my opinion there is more involved in the purity of the teaching 
than the specific 
 content, part of which by the way is strictly oral tradition, and 
part of which is not.

Well, when *I* started TM, purity of the teaching was understood by 
me (and by most other people, I'll bet) to refer to the specifics of 
teaching TM, NOT some extra stuff added later on.

If you're going off on tangets by defining purity of the teaching 
by some non-standard term that YOU never defined at the start of this 
discussion, but simply assumed that everyone else had to agree with, 
well, bully for you, but its not how to conduct a discussion.

Terms that are undefined at the start are assumed to be the most 
common definition, not someone's ad hoc definition that he/she has 
never defined.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-23 Thread L B Shriver

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
 [...]
 You're complaining about oral traditions and their 
 preservation 
   and 
 about the lousy job of this that the TMO has done.



That interpretation is justified neither by what I wrote nor by 
   what I intended.

First, I'm not discussing oral traditions; you have inserted 
 that 
   topic into the string on 
your own accord. 
   
   What do YOU mean by purity of the teaching, if not the oral 
   tradition of teaching TM?
  
  
  
  At the risk of being redundant, I will once again attempt to point 
 out that the topic of oral 
  traditions was introduced by you, not by me. I was not 
 discussing oral traditions, but 
  rather the purity of the teaching in the TMO. These topics are 
 not identical unless one 
  defines them to be at the outset and proceeds on that basis. As I 
 have said in other posts, 
  in my opinion there is more involved in the purity of the teaching 
 than the specific 
  content, part of which by the way is strictly oral tradition, and 
 part of which is not.
 
 Well, when *I* started TM, purity of the teaching was understood by 
 me (and by most other people, I'll bet) to refer to the specifics of 
 teaching TM, NOT some extra stuff added later on.



Purity of the teaching, in the narrow sense, refers to the content and methods 
of 
instruction, which are valued, not so much for their own sake, as for the 
effects they 
produce, the most important of which would probably be effortless transcending. 
However, I doubt if most people would object if we also included the purity of 
the intent of 
the initiator as part of the purity of the teaching. Unless, of course, you 
object and would 
like to state your case.

Thus far, I don't see that I've added anything to the common understanding of 
purity of 
the teaching, and I am confident that you are unable to identify any other 
element that I 
have added, despite your apparent assertion that I have done so.


 
 If you're going off on tangets by defining purity of the teaching 
 by some non-standard term that YOU never defined at the start of this 
 discussion, but simply assumed that everyone else had to agree with, 
 well, bully for you, but its not how to conduct a discussion.



If you truly feel qualified to give lessons on how to conduct a discussion, 
please indicate 
how my understanding of the concept is nonstandard, as you assert

.

 
 Terms that are undefined at the start are assumed to be the most 
 common definition, not someone's ad hoc definition that he/she has 
 never defined.



As a general statement, I agree with that. I do not agree, however, with your 
other 
assertions regarding my definitions of purity of the teaching. It was you, on 
the other 
hand, who incorrectly assumed that purity of the teaching and preservation 
of oral 
traditions were equivalent terms, thereby injecting an extraneous element into 
the 
discussion.

L B S





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[...]
 As a general statement, I agree with that. I do not agree, however, 
with your other 
 assertions regarding my definitions of purity of the teaching. It 
was you, on the other 
 hand, who incorrectly assumed that purity of the teaching 
and preservation of oral 
 traditions were equivalent terms, thereby injecting an extraneous 
element into the 
 discussion.
 

OK, when I said oral traditions, and purity of the teaching, I 
was, without thinking, referring to the oral aspects of both  
teaching TM AND  teaching someone to become a TM teacher as opposed 
to other aspects, which was confusion on my part, though MMY appears 
to believe that the oral parts are most likely to get confused in the 
long run.

Certainly, its easier to have a telephone distortion-effect from 
oral transmission than from written transmission. MMY's video tapes 
are meant to help prevent that. The entire structure of TM teacher 
training is also meant to help prevent that.

Er, what were we talking about again?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[...]
 As a general statement, I agree with that. I do not agree, however, 
with your other 
 assertions regarding my definitions of purity of the teaching. It 
was you, on the other 
 hand, who incorrectly assumed that purity of the teaching 
and preservation of oral 
 traditions were equivalent terms, thereby injecting an extraneous 
element into the 
 discussion.
 

OK, when I said oral traditions, and purity of the teaching, I 
was, without thinking, referring to the oral aspects of both  
teaching TM AND  teaching someone to become a TM teacher as opposed 
to other aspects, which was confusion on my part, though MMY appears 
to believe that the oral parts are most likely to get confused in the 
long run.

Certainly, its easier to have a telephone distortion-effect from 
oral transmission than from written transmission. MMY's video tapes 
are meant to help prevent that. The entire structure of TM teacher 
training is also meant to help prevent that.

Er, what were we talking about again?




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread Peter Sutphen



--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [...]
   Vaj, however studied and clever he may be, is
 just not
   gonna beat out the tall (6' 4) Brazilian
 bombshell who
   was dancing in front of the stage tonight.  Just
 not gonna
   happen.  No offense, Vaj.
   
   :-)
  
  6'4 may be fun to watch, but too tall for me.
 COmpassion and all
  that: they'd hurt their necks trying to kiss me,
 for instance.
 
 Whassamatta, you too proud to stand on a stool,
 fer pete's sake?

Unc, I hate to tell you, BUT THAT'S A MAN, BABY!



 
 
 
 
 
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 
 
 


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
   Well, it's deteriorating despite (and also
   in many respects because of) the TMO's best
   efforts to maintain the purity--not within
   the TMO itself, but outside of it.
   
   Whether you think the purity of the teaching
   is important depends on whether you think the
   teaching is definitive, of course.
   
   (I'm referring here to the teaching about the
   nature and mechanics of consciousness, not to
   any of the subsidiary stuff, politics and
   Rajas and so on.)
  
  MMY's main concern with purity of the teaching has always (at
  least how I see it) been concerning the way in which TM is 
taught, 
  not the theoretical stuff, which he considers to be at best, 
  secondary.
 
 I should have made it clear I was including 
 instruction in the techniques, not just the
 theoretical stuff; and as you say the instruction
 is the most crucial part.  But when you begin to 
 mess with the theoretical stuff, it has 
 implications for the instruction as well, so at
 least some of the basic principles are important
 as well.

Sure, but only insomuch as the intellectual analysis might interfere 
with the practice.

MMY could have described TM in terms of God's Grace, which is an 
entirely different approach, on its face, and still have presented 
the core point of no-effort/no-control/no-expectations/no-etc.

Alarik Arenander explains TM in terms of the physiological 
functioning of the brain, and still manages to impart the 
effortlessness thing.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  [...]
   
   Nevertheless, I think that the greatest source of outrage 
against movement excesses 
 is 
  the 
   pain of waking from a murky slumber, induced by a sleeping 
potion heavily laced with 
   denial. In my own case, for example, there were certain 
assumptions about the nature 
 of 
   the organization that I clung to far beyond any evidence for 
their usefulness. I would 
   guess that the broadest general category of such misimpressions 
has to do with the 
 cult 
   nature of the TMO. To deny that it is a cult is to place 
oneself outside the domain of 
   mainstream rationality. Once it is acknowledged to be a cult, 
however, it can be 
 allowed 
   that some of its policies may in fact be reasonable, given that 
context. However, 
 almost 
  no 
   assertion of irrationality can be dismissed out of hand. It 
must be considered on the 
  basis 
   of the evidence.
  
  TM isn't a cult. TM is a meditation practice.
 
 
 
 I did not assert that TM is a cult, neither in this message nor any 
other that I am aware of. 
 I was referring specifically and explicity to the organization.


Sorry, my bad. 

 
 
  
   
   This is often difficult to do from a distance. To live in 
Fairfield, however, is to have 
  access 
   to a great number of disturbing reports which would normally 
not circulate outside of 
   Jefferson County. Some of them turn out to be false and 
unfounded, but on the whole 
  they 
   paint a picture that resembles a giant version of those plastic 
tokens that look like 
 one 
   thing when looked at one way, and something entirely different 
when looked at from 
 a 
   different angle.
  
  In other words, you've got a distorted view of the TMO by being 
TOO close to it.
 
 
 
 Both kinds of distortion are common, and I have been subject to 
each at different times.
 
 


And outsiders who hear about the excesses of the TMO often laugh at 
the poeple complaining about them. This suggests a certain level of 
bias on the part of the people who complain so vigorously...


  
   
   Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I have 
understood it has already 
  been 
   lost. There is very little there left preserving, and that 
which is worthy of preserving 
 can 
   best be saved outside the context of the organization.
   
  
  So which branch of Christianity has done the best at preserving 
the oral tradition?
 
 
 
 I am not discussing Christianity here, so I will not bother 
responding to this question.

You're complaining about oral traditions and their preservation and 
about the lousy job of this that the TMO has done.

 
 
  
  The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral 
tradition. That is NOT the case 
  for ANY major branch of the Christian religion, and it shows, 
IMHO.
  
  Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of time 
remains to be seen. 
  What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not all, other approaches 
have not seemed to 
  work.
  
  Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous 
interviews with TMers. Look 
 at 
  Chopra's own meditation technique, and how he presents it to 
people. We can see the 
  results of the telephone effect immediately (within a generation 
of second-handness).
  
  Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't deemed 
central to his 
 organization, 
  as far as I can tell, because his charitable works are the only 
pretty much the only thing 
  discussed here.
 
 
 
 Your penchant for straw man arguments could take up a lot of band 
width at this rate.


Your inability to address my points takes up at least as much if not 
more.

 
 
  
  MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what he 
believes is important, 
  and I find it amusing that people criticize him for building an 
organization specifically  
  designed to preserve that which he deems most important.
 
 
 
 Surely you jest! Maharishi has changed his game plan more times 
than I can recall, as has 
 been observed time and again in this forum. At the most obvious 
level, what has become 
 of the priority to have large numbers of ordinary people 
meditating, or large numbers of 
 Sidhas flying together, etc, etc.?

And so? Its HIS game plan to change, and his teaching method to 
change. Purity of the teaching is his to define, as well...




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  You're still missing the point.  Lawson isn't talking
  about strategies, he's talking about the need MMY
  perceives to preserve the purity of oral instruction
  in the techniques.
 
 There's no debate about the oral instruction of the technique -- the
 purity of teaching debate is how that phrase is used as an excuse to
 enforce conformity and negate competition for its businesses.  The TMO
 spends far more time, energy and resources making sure everyone on
 campus has exactly the same color house, inside and out, facing the
 same direction, housing similarly clothed, protein-deficient bodies
 than it does on preserving the purity of oral instruction.  The TMO
 has become more a religion of the book with innumerable codes of
 conduct, than an oral meditative tradition.

That might be, since I haven't been there in a while. However, are you 
saying that dome participation is dependent on whether or not you take 
MAK or have the proper vastu home?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[...]
 
 Many TMers still accept the TM catechism's thesis that the TM 
technique as taught by 
 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is the only hope for mankind. To believe 
that, of course, is to be 
 necessarily desperate. It is this desperation that gives rise to 
immoderate, irrational 
 behavior. It seems probable to me that the TMO has shot its wad, 
historically speaking, 
 and there's nothing left for its future but a rash of historical 
publications and footnotes. Is 
 this a sad outcome? Why should anyone be sad that something came 
and went, the way of 
 all things? On the other hand, I DO think it's sad to try and 
perpetuate a thing beyond its 
 time, like that poor lady in Florida. Better to let it go, 
gracefully, and look for satwa in the 
 here and now.
 

So the TM organization and/or MMY are like a hopelessly brain-dead 
woman on terminal life support?

Alrighty, we know where you're coming from, thanks.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [...]
   Vaj, however studied and clever he may be, is just not
   gonna beat out the tall (6' 4) Brazilian bombshell who
   was dancing in front of the stage tonight.  Just not gonna
   happen.  No offense, Vaj.
   
   :-)
  
  6'4 may be fun to watch, but too tall for me. COmpassion and all
  that: they'd hurt their necks trying to kiss me, for instance.
 
 Whassamatta, you too proud to stand on a stool,
 fer pete's sake?

That won't work in bed...




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread L B Shriver

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   [...]

Nevertheless, I think that the greatest source of outrage 
 against movement excesses 
  is 
   the 
pain of waking from a murky slumber, induced by a sleeping 
 potion heavily laced with 
denial. In my own case, for example, there were certain 
 assumptions about the nature 
  of 
the organization that I clung to far beyond any evidence for 
 their usefulness. I would 
guess that the broadest general category of such misimpressions 
 has to do with the 
  cult 
nature of the TMO. To deny that it is a cult is to place 
 oneself outside the domain of 
mainstream rationality. Once it is acknowledged to be a cult, 
 however, it can be 
  allowed 
that some of its policies may in fact be reasonable, given that 
 context. However, 
  almost 
   no 
assertion of irrationality can be dismissed out of hand. It 
 must be considered on the 
   basis 
of the evidence.
   
   TM isn't a cult. TM is a meditation practice.
  
  
  
  I did not assert that TM is a cult, neither in this message nor any 
 other that I am aware of. 
  I was referring specifically and explicity to the organization.
 
 
 Sorry, my bad. 
 
  
  
   

This is often difficult to do from a distance. To live in 
 Fairfield, however, is to have 
   access 
to a great number of disturbing reports which would normally 
 not circulate outside of 
Jefferson County. Some of them turn out to be false and 
 unfounded, but on the whole 
   they 
paint a picture that resembles a giant version of those plastic 
 tokens that look like 
  one 
thing when looked at one way, and something entirely different 
 when looked at from 
  a 
different angle.
   
   In other words, you've got a distorted view of the TMO by being 
 TOO close to it.
  
  
  
  Both kinds of distortion are common, and I have been subject to 
 each at different times.
  
  
 
 
 And outsiders who hear about the excesses of the TMO often laugh at 
 the poeple complaining about them. This suggests a certain level of 
 bias on the part of the people who complain so vigorously...
 
 
   

Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I have 
 understood it has already 
   been 
lost. There is very little there left preserving, and that 
 which is worthy of preserving 
  can 
best be saved outside the context of the organization.

   
   So which branch of Christianity has done the best at preserving 
 the oral tradition?
  
  
  
  I am not discussing Christianity here, so I will not bother 
 responding to this question.
 
 You're complaining about oral traditions and their preservation and 
 about the lousy job of this that the TMO has done.



That interpretation is justified neither by what I wrote nor by what I intended.

First, I'm not discussing oral traditions; you have inserted that topic into 
the string on 
your own accord. 

Second, I'm not complaining. I am analyzing, and the result of my analysis is 
somewhat 
negative with regard to the content. That may seem like a distinction without a 
difference 
to you, but for me it is significant.

 
  
  
   
   The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral 
 tradition. That is NOT the case 
   for ANY major branch of the Christian religion, and it shows, 
 IMHO.
   
   Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of time 
 remains to be seen. 
   What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not all, other approaches 
 have not seemed to 
   work.
   
   Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous 
 interviews with TMers. Look 
  at 
   Chopra's own meditation technique, and how he presents it to 
 people. We can see the 
   results of the telephone effect immediately (within a generation 
 of second-handness).
   
   Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't deemed 
 central to his 
  organization, 
   as far as I can tell, because his charitable works are the only 
 pretty much the only thing 
   discussed here.
  
  
  
  Your penchant for straw man arguments could take up a lot of band 
 width at this rate.
 
 
 Your inability to address my points takes up at least as much if not 
 more.



Ho hum.


 
  
  
   
   MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what he 
 believes is important, 
   and I find it amusing that people criticize him for building an 
 organization specifically  
   designed to preserve that which he deems most important.
  
  
  
  Surely you jest! Maharishi has changed his game plan more times 
 than I can recall, as has 
  been observed time and again in this forum. At

[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   [...]
Vaj, however studied and clever he may be, is
  just not
gonna beat out the tall (6' 4) Brazilian
  bombshell who
was dancing in front of the stage tonight.  Just
  not gonna
happen.  No offense, Vaj.

:-)
   
   6'4 may be fun to watch, but too tall for me.
  COmpassion and all
   that: they'd hurt their necks trying to kiss me,
  for instance.
  
  Whassamatta, you too proud to stand on a stool,
  fer pete's sake?
 
 Unc, I hate to tell you, BUT THAT'S A MAN, BABY!

Might not be. I knew one exotic dancer who was 18, female and about 
6'3 and a bombshell.

All the Really Tall Guys used to follow her around like puppy dogs.

Something about neckaches, I'm guessing...

She was extremely bright too, which made the nude dancing thing kinda 
sad since regardless of what you think of the *profession*, the kind 
of people you tend to meet as a dancer are, well, not terribly life-
supporting.There was a core of nude dancers who used to visit a 
coffeehouse close to where I live. I was their massuer after work on 
a regular basis.

Used to freak people out when people would start commenting on 
someone's ass and say things like Hey John, bet you don't have the 
guts to go squeeze it!

I'd make a bet that *I* could go squeeze the ass in question and get 
some very odd looks when I'd go over, chat for a second, massage her 
and her friend's shoulders for a bit, and have them both strike a 
perfect pose for a butt-squeeze before they both gave me hugs.

Nude dancers have very nice asses, in general.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread Ingegerd

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Fischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Hateful and harsh? Nay, nay. Inside all that swinging
  and thrashing is a heart of pure love.
 
 I agree.

Me too.
Ingegerd




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 One of my friends has been meditating for about 30 years. He wanted 
 to be a TM-Teacher in the 70ths and worked as staff in Seelisberg to 
 accomplish that. His brother went over to another Organisation as a 
 meditation-teacher. My friend was sent home from Seelisberg in 
 disgrace because of that - and was denied to be a TM-Teacher and a 
 Sidha.

On the other hand, the son of Chopra's publicist was on Purusha for quite a few 
years 
AFTER Chopra left the TMO.

YMMV.

But that has been my point: its not a Movement-wide policy about these things, 
or at least 
its not implemented in a standardized way.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just so I understand, Lawson, you visited other teachers 
and noted so when asked in course applications? 
And you were admitted to courses with no problems?
   
   Nope. NEver visited other teachers.
  
  If it's confession time I visited Krishnamurti in about 1984 in
  England, but he was older than Maharishi so its ok.
 
 I think, Off, that I'm beginning to get a handle on when you
 *think* you're being lighthearted and funny, and suspect
 you think that this is one of those times.  
 
 However, can you step back and look for a moment at the
 *language* you use here, and what it implies about what
 the TMO teaches and the mindset it creates in its long-time
 practitioners?
 
 Confession?  It's ok?
 
 IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
 isn't.  IMO there is nothing to confess.  There are times
 when I am absolutely *horrified* by the lack of freedom of
 action and freedom of thought that people have willingly
 imposed upon themselves in the name of either purity of 
 the teaching or devotion to one's teacher or both.
 
 It's like in TM seeing another teacher has taken on, over 
 the years, the stigma of cheating on one's spouse.  And that
 being open to knowledge -- if the source of that knowledge 
 is not officially approved -- is similarly looked upon as if
 it were cheating on  the purity of knowledge itself.  
 
 And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
 
 How could such a potentially liberating teaching have
 been turned into a mechanism for perpetuating bondage
 and enforcing ignorance?  
 
 I mean, in this discussion you've got one guy proud of
 the fact that he's only seen one spiritual teacher in his
 life, even though there were many to be potentially 
 learned from.  

I'm neither proud nor not proud. I found what I was looking for first time 
around (or at 
least stopped trying to find something better).

Sounds to me like YOU have the problem here. Perhaps you're projecting because 
you're 
still searching? and resent those who have either given up or don't feel a 
need to?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  One of my friends has been meditating for about 30 years. He wanted 
  to be a TM-Teacher in the 70ths and worked as staff in Seelisberg to 
  accomplish that. His brother went over to another Organisation as a 
  meditation-teacher. My friend was sent home from Seelisberg in 
  disgrace because of that - and was denied to be a TM-Teacher and a 
  Sidha.
 
 In one sense, hearing stories like this is a bit liberating,
 because you can't even resent the idiots who did this
 or have any ill wishes towards them. 

And yet I can point out incidences where this did NOT happen. The TMO is large 
and 
people implement things differently at different times.

This holds true for MMY's decisions in this respect (or any other for that 
matter) as well, or 
do you expect leaders to always be perfect?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread Robert Gimbel

--Sounds like one path is more devotional, for people of heart; and 
the other is more intellectual for people more involved with mind..


- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   No , maybe you jump to conclusions based on your own ways? 
   1985. A friend of mine and my two sweet old landladies (ex 
 TM'rs) 
   wanted to go, so I decided to go with them. (I had read a 
couple 
 of 
   his books before I got into TM). I wasn't much into the 
lecture, 
 but 
   it was a fun day out on a sunny day in the countryside 
England. 
   That's about it.
  
  Cool.
  
  Now imagine that your entire ability to participate in TM
  events had ended that day, simply because you went to 
  see another teacher.  
  
  That happened, to far too many people.
  
  Unc .
 
 Well I'm afraid Krishnamurti was on another level than Amma and 
 Pundiji, etc. He was a philosophernot an advocate of a 
 technique. His books are about philosophy, not hugs, and lovey 
dovey 
 goggle-eyed sit-ins. :-)
 OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
   IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
   isn't.  
  
  They have their logic. 
  I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts back 
  about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
  I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
  attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what
  gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over time
  to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should try
  an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR
  question precisely (and concisely)
 
 Well, it's deteriorating despite (and also
 in many respects because of) the TMO's best
 efforts to maintain the purity--not within
 the TMO itself, but outside of it.
 
 Whether you think the purity of the teaching
 is important depends on whether you think the
 teaching is definitive, of course.
 
 (I'm referring here to the teaching about the
 nature and mechanics of consciousness, not to
 any of the subsidiary stuff, politics and
 Rajas and so on.)

MMY's main concern with purity of the teaching has always (at least how I see 
it) been 
concerning the way in which TM is taught, not the theoretical stuff, which he 
considers to 
be at best, secondary.

 
   And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
  
  I think it's based on logic. see above.
 
 Seems to me the intense, emotional resistance
 to the measures for preserving the purity of
 the teaching may itself be based on fear, the
 fear of committing oneself (not to the TMO
 per se but to the teaching).
 
 It's one thing to disapprove of the various
 excesses of the movement control freaks that
 go way beyond the logic of it; it's quite
 another to tie oneself into knots about it
 and start comparing it to the Inquisition 
 and similar outrages.  That's just not a
 rational response.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What if none of it is true, and the only thing you're protecting
 is an eternal technique which has never been lost and never 
 corrupted because it cannot possibly be?  And, of course, 
 an immensely profitible monopoly, and the self important egos
 of those who run it?

OTOH, what if it IS true?

You obviously don't believe that it is, but that's your belief. Those that 
believe that it IS 
true would likely behave differently than those that don't.

And even those who  are agnostic would likely behave differently than those 
that believe 
that the purity thing is wrong, period.

Agnostics would say well, we can't be sure, but the behavior, while extreme in 
cases, is 
consistent with the belief.

Those who are actively ANTI in their belief will  mock both the believers and 
agnostics 
because it makes them feel better about their obvious insecurities.

You see this behavior in fundamentalist Atheists all the time: they can't 
accept that there 
are things that may not be proveable or disproveable (dispite most Atheists 
claiming to 
believe in Mathematics), and insist that not only are True Believers fools, but 
agnostics are 
as well.

Dare I point out that many/most who post regularly on this forum fall into the 
Fundamentalist Atheist camp?

I think I will,  and let the flames fall where they may.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I think my friend is more enlightened than most of us. He meditates 
 TM regular, he is very devoted to the Ved and he encourage people to 
 start with TM. He has tried several times to apply for the TM-Sidhi-
 course, they don't even bother to answer him, and still he has no 
 bitterness and anger. Just a beautiful person.
 Ingegerd

If he is truely interested, he should cultivate friendships with those who are 
higher up in 
the TM hierarchy. Sometimes a little networking goes a long way in overcoming 
rigidity at 
the intermediate levels.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --Ken Wilber
 
 Just another wuss who justifies believing he's right about things.  :-)

So say we all (else, why open our mouths?).




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --Ken Wilber
  
  Just another wuss who justifies believing he's right about 
 things.  :-)
 
 Try actually reading what he said, instead
 of what you would like him to have said so
 that you could continue to believe you're
 right about things.

He DID put a smiley at the end, though I think that was meant as much to cut 
off criticism 
as to show genuine humor.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 Couldn't agree more.  The desire to create buildings and
 perpetuate itself almost *always* indicates a religion or
 spiritual path that has already died internally.

Really? At least you modified that *always* with almost.

But which spiritual paths have you observed that show this tendency?

Swami Rama's?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lupidus108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I think my friend is more enlightened than most of us. He meditates 
  TM regular, he is very devoted to the Ved and he encourage people to 
  start with TM. He has tried several times to apply for the TM-Sidhi-
  course, they don't even bother to answer him, and still he has no 
  bitterness and anger. Just a beautiful person.
  Ingegerd
 
 Thats a onesided story. Obviously the TMO must have strong reasons for 
 not wanting him on the course.

Or at least one person does. 




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
   The idea that the TMO couldn't evolve into the same self satisfied
 and self 
  righteous institution as the Church is bogus because TMO is already
 many 
  millions of light years ahead in terms of numbers and basic
 influence than 
  Jesus was during his life. There is no certainty, but there is a
 possibility that 
  the TMO could overtake the Church for numbers and influence someday. 
 
 Jesus did not establish a Church which gradually grew into a world
 dominant religion.  The followers of Jesus' teachings had splintered
 into innumerable different and often competing sects soon after his
 death.  The rapid growth of the church came after emperor constantine
 adopted a particularly authoritarian and patriarchal version as rome's
 state religion for political reasons some 300 yrs after Jesus' death.  
 

An argument for preparing a strong organization BEFORE the founder's death, but 
I doubt 
if you meant to make it.

 As for the TMO, about 99% of tm teachers were recently relieved of
 their duties, initiations are pretty much dead, enrollments at mum and
 other tmo institutions have been in decline for awhile -- and all this
 decline while the founder is still alive.  What will happen when the
 prime source of inspiration in the tmo is gone and it's left with
 bevan and the nephews to keep spirits up??

Bevan, for all his flaws, is deemed trustworthy enough to be in charge of a 
$180 million 
charity. What's your criteria for mocking him?


 
 Donations are still pretty good though and maybe something will
 survive in India where the money is all going. 

If all the money was going to India, how could MUM survive? Likewise, where is 
the money 
coming to build/purchase the Peace Palaces if there is no funding for things in 
the USA? 
Finally, how did the organic greenhouses get built, and where is the funding 
coming to 
build the new ones?

 There are surely
 dozens of emerging religions with more numbers and clout than the tmo
 -- hell, even the rev. moon has tons more money and is deeply in bed
 with the party in power in DC.

So you're comparing the TMO unfavorably with the Rev. Sun Myung Moon and HIS 
organization?

I think I now understand  how wise and relevant your observations really are...




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[...]
 
 Nevertheless, I think that the greatest source of outrage against movement 
 excesses is 
the 
 pain of waking from a murky slumber, induced by a sleeping potion heavily 
 laced with 
 denial. In my own case, for example, there were certain assumptions about the 
 nature of 
 the organization that I clung to far beyond any evidence for their 
 usefulness. I would 
 guess that the broadest general category of such misimpressions has to do 
 with the cult 
 nature of the TMO. To deny that it is a cult is to place oneself outside the 
 domain of 
 mainstream rationality. Once it is acknowledged to be a cult, however, it can 
 be allowed 
 that some of its policies may in fact be reasonable, given that context. 
 However, almost 
no 
 assertion of irrationality can be dismissed out of hand. It must be 
 considered on the 
basis 
 of the evidence.

TM isn't a cult. TM is a meditation practice.

 
 This is often difficult to do from a distance. To live in Fairfield, however, 
 is to have 
access 
 to a great number of disturbing reports which would normally not circulate 
 outside of 
 Jefferson County. Some of them turn out to be false and unfounded, but on the 
 whole 
they 
 paint a picture that resembles a giant version of those plastic tokens that 
 look like one 
 thing when looked at one way, and something entirely different when looked at 
 from a 
 different angle.

In other words, you've got a distorted view of the TMO by being TOO close to it.

 
 Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I have understood it 
 has already 
been 
 lost. There is very little there left preserving, and that which is worthy of 
 preserving can 
 best be saved outside the context of the organization.
 

So which branch of Christianity has done the best at preserving the oral 
tradition?

The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral tradition. That is 
NOT the case 
for ANY major branch of the Christian religion, and it shows, IMHO.

Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of time remains to be 
seen. 
What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not all, other approaches have not 
seemed to 
work.

Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous interviews with TMers. 
Look at 
Chopra's own meditation technique, and how he presents it to people. We can see 
the 
results of the telephone effect immediately (within a generation of 
second-handness).

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't deemed central to his 
organization, 
as far as I can tell, because his charitable works are the only pretty much the 
only thing 
discussed here.

MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what he believes is 
important, 
and I find it amusing that people criticize him for building an organization 
specifically  
designed to preserve that which he deems most important.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
  Well, it's deteriorating despite (and also
  in many respects because of) the TMO's best
  efforts to maintain the purity--not within
  the TMO itself, but outside of it.
  
  Whether you think the purity of the teaching
  is important depends on whether you think the
  teaching is definitive, of course.
  
  (I'm referring here to the teaching about the
  nature and mechanics of consciousness, not to
  any of the subsidiary stuff, politics and
  Rajas and so on.)
 
 MMY's main concern with purity of the teaching has always (at
 least how I see it) been concerning the way in which TM is taught, 
 not the theoretical stuff, which he considers to be at best, 
 secondary.

I should have made it clear I was including 
instruction in the techniques, not just the
theoretical stuff; and as you say the instruction
is the most crucial part.  But when you begin to 
mess with the theoretical stuff, it has 
implications for the instruction as well, so at
least some of the basic principles are important
as well.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread L B Shriver

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 [...]
  
  Nevertheless, I think that the greatest source of outrage against movement 
  excesses 
is 
 the 
  pain of waking from a murky slumber, induced by a sleeping potion heavily 
  laced with 
  denial. In my own case, for example, there were certain assumptions about 
  the nature 
of 
  the organization that I clung to far beyond any evidence for their 
  usefulness. I would 
  guess that the broadest general category of such misimpressions has to do 
  with the 
cult 
  nature of the TMO. To deny that it is a cult is to place oneself outside 
  the domain of 
  mainstream rationality. Once it is acknowledged to be a cult, however, it 
  can be 
allowed 
  that some of its policies may in fact be reasonable, given that context. 
  However, 
almost 
 no 
  assertion of irrationality can be dismissed out of hand. It must be 
  considered on the 
 basis 
  of the evidence.
 
 TM isn't a cult. TM is a meditation practice.



I did not assert that TM is a cult, neither in this message nor any other that 
I am aware of. 
I was referring specifically and explicity to the organization.


 
  
  This is often difficult to do from a distance. To live in Fairfield, 
  however, is to have 
 access 
  to a great number of disturbing reports which would normally not circulate 
  outside of 
  Jefferson County. Some of them turn out to be false and unfounded, but on 
  the whole 
 they 
  paint a picture that resembles a giant version of those plastic tokens that 
  look like 
one 
  thing when looked at one way, and something entirely different when looked 
  at from 
a 
  different angle.
 
 In other words, you've got a distorted view of the TMO by being TOO close to 
 it.



Both kinds of distortion are common, and I have been subject to each at 
different times.


 
  
  Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I have understood 
  it has already 
 been 
  lost. There is very little there left preserving, and that which is worthy 
  of preserving 
can 
  best be saved outside the context of the organization.
  
 
 So which branch of Christianity has done the best at preserving the oral 
 tradition?



I am not discussing Christianity here, so I will not bother responding to this 
question.


 
 The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral tradition. That is 
 NOT the case 
 for ANY major branch of the Christian religion, and it shows, IMHO.
 
 Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of time remains to 
 be seen. 
 What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not all, other approaches have not 
 seemed to 
 work.
 
 Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous interviews with 
 TMers. Look 
at 
 Chopra's own meditation technique, and how he presents it to people. We can 
 see the 
 results of the telephone effect immediately (within a generation of 
 second-handness).
 
 Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't deemed central to 
 his 
organization, 
 as far as I can tell, because his charitable works are the only pretty much 
 the only thing 
 discussed here.



Your penchant for straw man arguments could take up a lot of band width at this 
rate.


 
 MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what he believes is 
 important, 
 and I find it amusing that people criticize him for building an organization 
 specifically  
 designed to preserve that which he deems most important.



Surely you jest! Maharishi has changed his game plan more times than I can 
recall, as has 
been observed time and again in this forum. At the most obvious level, what has 
become 
of the priority to have large numbers of ordinary people meditating, or large 
numbers of 
Sidhas flying together, etc, etc.?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
snip
  How could such a potentially liberating teaching have
  been turned into a mechanism for perpetuating bondage
  and enforcing ignorance?  
  
  I mean, in this discussion you've got one guy proud of
  the fact that he's only seen one spiritual teacher in his
  life, even though there were many to be potentially 
  learned from.  
 
 I'm neither proud nor not proud. I found what I was looking
 for first time around (or at least stopped trying to find 
 something better).
 
 Sounds to me like YOU have the problem here. Perhaps you're 
 projecting because you're still searching? and resent those who 
 have either given up or don't feel a need to?

Bingo.  And needs to constantly reinforce the
rightness of his decision to quit TM by finding,
or fabricating, reasons to trash those who've
stuck with it.  (Although as far as I can tell,
he's said very little that's new along these
lines for years; it's almost all recycled.)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
   Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I have 
   understood it has already been lost. There is very little there 
   left preserving, and that which is worthy of preserving can 
   best be saved outside the context of the organization.
  
  So which branch of Christianity has done the best at preserving 
  the oral tradition?
 
 
 
 I am not discussing Christianity here, so I will not bother 
 responding to this question.

Whoa, Lawson is setting up a point, which you seem to
have missed entirely.  Take another look:
 
  The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral 
  tradition. That is NOT the case for ANY major branch of the 
  Christian religion, and it shows, IMHO.
  
  Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of time 
  remains to be seen. What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not 
  all, other approaches have not seemed to work.
  
  Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous 
  interviews with TMers. Look at Chopra's own meditation technique, 
  and how he presents it to people. We can see the results of
  the telephone effect immediately (within a generation of
  second-handness).
  
  Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't deemed 
  central to his organization, as far as I can tell, because his 
  charitable works are the only pretty much the only thing 
  discussed here.
 
 
 
 Your penchant for straw man arguments could take up a lot of band 
 width at this rate.

No, he's making a good argument.  Go back and look
at it again.

  MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what he 
  believes is important, and I find it amusing that people 
  criticize him for building an organization specifically  
  designed to preserve that which he deems most important.
 
 
 
 Surely you jest! Maharishi has changed his game plan more times 
 than I can recall, as has been observed time and again in this 
 forum. At the most obvious level, what has become of the priority 
 to have large numbers of ordinary people meditating, or large 
 numbers of Sidhas flying together, etc, etc.?

You're still missing the point.  Lawson isn't talking
about strategies, he's talking about the need MMY
perceives to preserve the purity of oral instruction
in the techniques.

(MMY's priorities in terms of strategies have changed
as various strategies have turned out to be or not
to be effective.  He hasn't ever been able to achieve
the level of participation necessary to make the two
strategies you mention work, so he keeps trying
alternate strategies to create the same effect.)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
The idea that the TMO couldn't evolve into the same self satisfied
  and self 
   righteous institution as the Church is bogus because TMO is already
  many 
   millions of light years ahead in terms of numbers and basic
  influence than 
   Jesus was during his life. There is no certainty, but there is a
  possibility that 
   the TMO could overtake the Church for numbers and influence someday. 
  
  Jesus did not establish a Church which gradually grew into a world
  dominant religion.  The followers of Jesus' teachings had splintered
  into innumerable different and often competing sects soon after his
  death.  The rapid growth of the church came after emperor constantine
  adopted a particularly authoritarian and patriarchal version as rome's
  state religion for political reasons some 300 yrs after Jesus' death.  
  
  As for the TMO, about 99% of tm teachers were recently relieved of
  their duties, initiations are pretty much dead, enrollments at mum and
  other tmo institutions have been in decline for awhile -- and all this
  decline while the founder is still alive.  What will happen when the
  prime source of inspiration in the tmo is gone and it's left with
  bevan and the nephews to keep spirits up??
  
  Donations are still pretty good though and maybe something will
  survive in India where the money is all going.  There are surely
  dozens of emerging religions with more numbers and clout than the tmo
  -- hell, even the rev. moon has tons more money and is deeply in bed
  with the party in power in DC.
 
 With only Bevan and the nephews left this is what will happen in India
 :  http://business.vsnl.com/maharishi/
 This page is entitled Maharishi Group of Companies  Educational
 Institutions , Tamilnadu. If you look at some of the links there
 you'll see TM and Maharishi used primarly as a brand to promote
 business activities. You don't have to wait till Maharishi passes,
 it's already happening.
 

You see the glass as almost empty. I see it as early on the road to 
overflowing...




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You're still missing the point.  Lawson isn't talking
 about strategies, he's talking about the need MMY
 perceives to preserve the purity of oral instruction
 in the techniques.

There's no debate about the oral instruction of the technique -- the
purity of teaching debate is how that phrase is used as an excuse to
enforce conformity and negate competition for its businesses.  The TMO
spends far more time, energy and resources making sure everyone on
campus has exactly the same color house, inside and out, facing the
same direction, housing similarly clothed, protein-deficient bodies
than it does on preserving the purity of oral instruction.  The TMO
has become more a religion of the book with innumerable codes of
conduct, than an oral meditative tradition.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  You're still missing the point.  Lawson isn't talking
  about strategies, he's talking about the need MMY
  perceives to preserve the purity of oral instruction
  in the techniques.
 
 There's no debate about the oral instruction of the technique

Oh, yes, there is, some of it on this very forum.

 -- the
 purity of teaching debate is how that phrase is used as an excuse to
 enforce conformity and negate competition for its businesses.

Or whether...

 The TMO
 spends far more time, energy and resources making sure everyone on
 campus has exactly the same color house, inside and out, facing the
 same direction, housing similarly clothed, protein-deficient bodies
 than it does on preserving the purity of oral instruction.
 The TMO has become more a religion of the book with innumerable 
 codes of conduct, than an oral meditative tradition.

Look, I'm not defending any of this.  I wouldn't
even defend some of the implementation of the
measures to actually protect the purity of the oral
instruction.  I *do* defend that principle, however,
and there *are* those who disagree with it.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip 
 Look, I'm not defending any of this.  I wouldn't
 even defend some of the implementation of the
 measures to actually protect the purity of the oral
 instruction.  I *do* defend that principle, however,
 and there *are* those who disagree with it.

Oh OK ... then I'm with you on that part.

Boy, Sat Yuga is HOT!!!





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread L B Shriver

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip
Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I have 
understood it has already been lost. There is very little there 
left preserving, and that which is worthy of preserving can 
best be saved outside the context of the organization.
   
   So which branch of Christianity has done the best at preserving 
   the oral tradition?
  
  
  
  I am not discussing Christianity here, so I will not bother 
  responding to this question.
 
 Whoa, Lawson is setting up a point, which you seem to
 have missed entirely.  Take another look:
  
   The TMO has been set up specifically to preserve its oral 
   tradition. That is NOT the case for ANY major branch of the 
   Christian religion, and it shows, IMHO.
   
   Whether or not the TMO approach will work for any length of time 
   remains to be seen. What we CAN be sure of is that most, if not 
   all, other approaches have not seemed to work.
   
   Look at Benson's Relaxation Response, based on numerous 
   interviews with TMers. Look at Chopra's own meditation technique, 
   and how he presents it to people. We can see the results of
   the telephone effect immediately (within a generation of
   second-handness).
   
   Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's techniques, useful or not, aren't deemed 
   central to his organization, as far as I can tell, because his 
   charitable works are the only pretty much the only thing 
   discussed here.
  
  
  
  Your penchant for straw man arguments could take up a lot of band 
  width at this rate.
 
 No, he's making a good argument.  Go back and look
 at it again.
 
   MMY has always been consistent in his representation of what he 
   believes is important, and I find it amusing that people 
   criticize him for building an organization specifically  
   designed to preserve that which he deems most important.
  
  
  
  Surely you jest! Maharishi has changed his game plan more times 
  than I can recall, as has been observed time and again in this 
  forum. At the most obvious level, what has become of the priority 
  to have large numbers of ordinary people meditating, or large 
  numbers of Sidhas flying together, etc, etc.?
 
 You're still missing the point.  Lawson isn't talking
 about strategies, he's talking about the need MMY
 perceives to preserve the purity of oral instruction
 in the techniques.
 
 (MMY's priorities in terms of strategies have changed
 as various strategies have turned out to be or not
 to be effective.  He hasn't ever been able to achieve
 the level of participation necessary to make the two
 strategies you mention work, so he keeps trying
 alternate strategies to create the same effect.)



I believe that in exchanges like this, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for 
the gander, 
and, frankly, I suspect I gave Lawson a much more careful reading than he gave 
me. 
However, to address your assertion that I missed his point: No, I got the point 
and found it 
not to be relevant. It is understandable that you or any other person could 
reach a 
different conclusion, but I'm sticking with what I delivered in response.

There is no assumed consensus in this forum about the nature and history of 
Christianity. 
While most of us probably accept the proposition that the purity of the 
teaching has 
gone out of that religion (or collection of religions, to be more accurate), it 
seems to be 
the case that people continue to find a personal relationship with Christ in 
all of its 
branches. Even a blind pig can stumble over an acorn from time to time, as they 
say.

On the other hand, I have seen arguments here to the effect that the Roman 
Catholic 
Church reperesents the purity of the teaching for Christianity, attempting to 
make the 
analogy between the RCC and the TMO.

While I got the general drift of his argument about the difference between 
historical 
Christianity and TMO, and his theoretical projection of some presumed 
difference that 
would give the TMO a putative survival advantage, I simply believe the whole 
line of 
reasoning is simply too shallow to be taken seriously, and therefore amounted 
to a 
functional straw man argument.

All cults and organizations have elements in common. Nothing new under the sun, 
as they 
say. This always obvious in retrospect, but usually controversial only in the 
present. 

In the present, there is some controversy about the necessity of instituting a 
specific range 
of punishments (behavior modifications, if you prefer) whose ostensible purpose 
is to 
preserve the purity of oral instruction in the techniques. I, and others, have 
argued that 
these measures have been demonstrably counterproductive. I,

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread Llundrub





Boy, Sat Yuga is HOT!!!--That's 
because Kali gets to strip down and lay out. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-22 Thread cardemaister

 
 Boy, Sat Yuga is HOT!!!
 

NBD, but by the rules of sandhi 'sat' + 'yuga' should
normally result to 'sad-yuga', like 'sat' + 'guru' becomes
'sad-guru'. The correct Sanskrit word for the best yuga prolly 
is 'satya-yuga' or 'kRta-yuga'.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[...]
 Vaj, however studied and clever he may be, is just not
 gonna beat out the tall (6' 4) Brazilian bombshell who
 was dancing in front of the stage tonight.  Just not gonna
 happen.  No offense, Vaj.
 
 :-)

6'4 may be fun to watch, but too tall for me. COmpassion and all that: 
they'd hurt their necks trying to kiss me, for instance.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [...]
  Vaj, however studied and clever he may be, is just not
  gonna beat out the tall (6' 4) Brazilian bombshell who
  was dancing in front of the stage tonight.  Just not gonna
  happen.  No offense, Vaj.
  
  :-)
 
 6'4 may be fun to watch, but too tall for me. COmpassion and all
 that: they'd hurt their necks trying to kiss me, for instance.

Whassamatta, you too proud to stand on a stool,
fer pete's sake?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Llundrub wrote:

On every single application I have ever filled out for TMO 
it 
 asked 
   if I had used any other techniques.  We all knew not to say 
yes 
 or we 
   would be refused the technique, or have to explain how we 
found 
 the 
   other technique ineffective and stoppped it. 
   
   sparaig wrote:
  
   So you lied. I never lied on any of those questions. What was 
the 
   point?
  
  Just so I understand, Lawson, you visited other teachers 
  and noted so when asked in course applications? 
  And you were admitted to courses with no problems?
  
 
 Nope. NEver visited other teachers.
 
  --
  
  A late-'70s MIU alum, Steve Spyker by name, applied 
  for graduate work at MUM some time in the '90s. He 
  was totally honest in listing other systems of knowledge 
  he had investigated. Despite being told these other 
  interests would not bar him from admission, he was 
  denied at the last minute.
  
  As I write this I have to wonder, why even ask if not to 
  find an impediment to admission?
  
   - Patrick Gillam

If it's confession time I visited Krishnamurti in about 1984 in 
England, but he was older than Maharishi so its ok.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Llundrub wrote:

On every single application I have ever filled out for TMO 
it 
 asked 
   if I had used any other techniques.  We all knew not to say 
yes 
 or we 
   would be refused the technique, or have to explain how we 
found 
 the 
   other technique ineffective and stoppped it. 
   
   sparaig wrote:
  
   So you lied. I never lied on any of those questions. What was 
the 
   point?
  
  Just so I understand, Lawson, you visited other teachers 
  and noted so when asked in course applications? 
  And you were admitted to courses with no problems?
  
 
 Nope. NEver visited other teachers.
 


If it's confession time I visited Krishnamurti in about 1984 in
England, but he was older than Maharishi so its ok.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Just so I understand, Lawson, you visited other teachers 
   and noted so when asked in course applications? 
   And you were admitted to courses with no problems?
  
  Nope. NEver visited other teachers.
 
 If it's confession time I visited Krishnamurti in about 1984 in
 England, but he was older than Maharishi so its ok.

I think, Off, that I'm beginning to get a handle on when you
*think* you're being lighthearted and funny, and suspect
you think that this is one of those times.  

However, can you step back and look for a moment at the
*language* you use here, and what it implies about what
the TMO teaches and the mindset it creates in its long-time
practitioners?

Confession?  It's ok?

IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
isn't.  IMO there is nothing to confess.  There are times
when I am absolutely *horrified* by the lack of freedom of
action and freedom of thought that people have willingly
imposed upon themselves in the name of either purity of 
the teaching or devotion to one's teacher or both.

It's like in TM seeing another teacher has taken on, over 
the years, the stigma of cheating on one's spouse.  And that
being open to knowledge -- if the source of that knowledge 
is not officially approved -- is similarly looked upon as if
it were cheating on  the purity of knowledge itself.  

And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.

How could such a potentially liberating teaching have
been turned into a mechanism for perpetuating bondage
and enforcing ignorance?  

I mean, in this discussion you've got one guy proud of
the fact that he's only seen one spiritual teacher in his
life, even though there were many to be potentially 
learned from.  And you've got another who (partially 
joking, but obviously also partially not) feels that seeing 
another teacher many years back falls into the category
of experience that requires a confession.  And who 
makes that confession from behind the shelter of anon-
ymity because this forum is public and it really *might*
be perceived as a confession.  It's just mind-boggling.

I'm staying right now in a medieval town in which, a few
hundred years ago, the followers of one branch of a 
spiritual tradition set up similar restrictions on their mem-
bers about seeing teachers from a different branch of 
the same spiritual tradition.  And in which, when a large
enough number of them disregarded the injunction and
saw these other teachers anyway, and refused to believe
that there was anything not Ok about it, or anything to
confess about, were gathered up by the True Believers
of *that* era and burned at the stake.

Sorry to ramble, but there are days when the weirdass
things that spiritual traditions do to its followers just blow
my mind.  Yesterday I was in Avignon being shown by a 
priest friend around the chambers where the Avignon 
Popes actually participated in the torture of those who
were being urged to confess the sin of hearing a teach-
ing that just *might* be heretical (their term for off the
program).  And then I log on here and hear people
talking about confessing the same sin.  It's all just
too weird for me.  Plus ca change, plus le meme...

Unc





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 One of my friends has been meditating for about 30 years. He wanted 
 to be a TM-Teacher in the 70ths and worked as staff in Seelisberg to 
 accomplish that. His brother went over to another Organisation as a 
 meditation-teacher. My friend was sent home from Seelisberg in 
 disgrace because of that - and was denied to be a TM-Teacher and a 
 Sidha.

In one sense, hearing stories like this is a bit liberating,
because you can't even resent the idiots who did this
or have any ill wishes towards them.  Any ill-wishing 
would be completely redundant and useless.  To be 
able to think like this, and justify this kind of action, the
people responsible *already* have to live in basically
the lowest state of attention possible.  To be angry at
them or wish them ill (even though they might deserve 
it) would be like hoping for bad things to happen to 
someone who is already a resident of the lowest circle 
of Hell.

In a Tibetan text I have somewhere in storage, there 
is an interesting passage.  It says that the worst possible
karma that a human being could incur -- the WORST 
action that a being could possibly perform, in any 
incarnation -- is to deny another being access to enlight-
enment when it is in your power to grant it.

Thus, interestingly, excommunication from a path that
espouses enlightenment is worse for the person doing
the excommunicating than it is for the person who is being
theoretically cut off.  According to this text, the person
who has  been driven out of the ashram could simply 
find another ashram and another teacher, and thus regain 
access to the path.  But the person or persons who drove 
him out could spend thousands of lifetimes lost and *really*
cut off from liberation.

Unc






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
snip
  IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
  isn't.  
 
 They have their logic. 
 I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts back 
 about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
 I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
 attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what
 gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over time
 to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should try
 an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR
 question precisely (and concisely)

Well, it's deteriorating despite (and also
in many respects because of) the TMO's best
efforts to maintain the purity--not within
the TMO itself, but outside of it.

Whether you think the purity of the teaching
is important depends on whether you think the
teaching is definitive, of course.

(I'm referring here to the teaching about the
nature and mechanics of consciousness, not to
any of the subsidiary stuff, politics and
Rajas and so on.)

  And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
 
 I think it's based on logic. see above.

Seems to me the intense, emotional resistance
to the measures for preserving the purity of
the teaching may itself be based on fear, the
fear of committing oneself (not to the TMO
per se but to the teaching).

It's one thing to disapprove of the various
excesses of the movement control freaks that
go way beyond the logic of it; it's quite
another to tie oneself into knots about it
and start comparing it to the Inquisition 
and similar outrages.  That's just not a
rational response.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread wayback71


  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   
   If it's confession time I visited Krishnamurti in about 1984 in
   England, but he was older than Maharishi so its ok.

 TURQ B wrote: 
  I think, Off, that I'm beginning to get a handle on when you
  *think* you're being lighthearted and funny, and suspect
  you think that this is one of those times.  
 
 
  However, can you step back and look for a moment at the
  *language* you use here, and what it implies about what
  the TMO teaches and the mindset it creates in its long-time
  practitioners?
  
  Confession?  It's ok? 


off world wrote: 
 It's tongue in cheek. 

 TURQ B wrote:
  
  IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
  isn't. 
 
off world wrote: 
 They have their logic. 
 I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts back 
 about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
 I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
 attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what
 gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over time
 to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should try
 an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR
 question precisely (and concisely)
 OffWorld
 
TURQ B wrote:  And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
  
 
off world wrote: 
 I think it's based on logic. see above.

So, off world, if you use your logic, how does the fact that Krishnamurti was 
OLD make it 
okay that you saw another teacher?  I never heard MMY say that a teacher's age 
made them 
not count in the TMO rulebook.

Also, what made you want to go and see him?  Maybe the same reasons that other 
people 
decide to go and see another teacher, too? And once in a while, a person finds 
the  best 
path and best teacher for themselves by going to see someone else.  I think 
this happened 
to Guru Dev.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 Everything you are talking about here, Off, is *learned behavior*,
 not some eternal grand truth.  You were TAUGHT that the know-
 ledge of TM and of enlightenment was so fragile that it had to
 be protected with eternal vigilance from what could be inter-
 jected into it and what could happen to it over time.  You were
 TAUGHT that unethical acts are permissible when performing
 this protection.   You were TAUGHT to look the other way when
 these things happen, and never to complain when the people 
 who are protecting this oh-so-precious and oh-so-vulnerable
 knowledge demean it through their lies and actions.

The trouble with this analysis is that it's
all black-and-white, no shades of gray.

Just for starters, reacting so violently against
control of any kind is just as much learned
behavior as the perception of the need for
control.  Moreover, it is itself a need for
control, in this case to control the attempts
to control and protect oneself.  It's just as
rigid, but in the opposite direction.

Then there's the difference between the kind of
learned behavior that simply parrots what has
been internalized unquestioningly, and the kind
which involves rigorous examination before being
adopted on the strength of one's own experience,
observation, and analysis.

And of course there's the difference between
looking the other way in the face of unethical
acts, and accepting the *principle* behind them
while deploring unethical implementation.

 What if none of it is true, and the only thing you're protecting
 is an eternal technique which has never been lost and never 
 corrupted because it cannot possibly be?

Sounds like you're advocating fear of being
wrong.

The fact that you might be wrong is simply
no excuse [for not speaking out]: You might
be right in your communication, and you might
be wrong, but that doesn't matter. What does
matter, as Kierkegaard so rudely reminded us,
is that only by investing and speaking your
vision with passion, can the truth, ONE WAY
OR ANOTHER, finally penetrate the reluctance
of the world.

If you are right, OR IF YOU ARE WRONG, it is
only your passion that will force EITHER to
be discovered. It is your duty to promote that
discovery--either way--and therefore it is
your duty to speak your truth with whatever
passion and courage you can find in your heart.

--Ken Wilber

[emphases added]





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






Sorry to ramble, but there are days when the weirdassthings that 
spiritual traditions do to its followers just blowmy mind. 
UncYour incredulity is mere smugness of an inner fanaticism 
with your own boundaries. Whether truer or more open than others, it's still a 
cage. Here I threw you a bone of modern French culture in Noir Desir and what 
did you do, you totally ignored it. I was trying to make a connection with you 
and your beloved France,and in your smugness you merely flipped me 
off. And then as pretentious as you are you act as if that's cultured. 


You're in what I call second middle agedness. In second childhood people 
act bizarre trying to make up for lost experience. In second middle agedness a 
person more quickly throws off all ideas that they haven't experienced as 
unimportant thus puffing up their own ego. So have fun in the South of 
France.If you can get past your own mind to experience anything 
else.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)


On Jul 21, 2005, at 8:50 AM, authfriend wrote:

 The trouble with this analysis is that it's
 all black-and-white, no shades of gray.

One of the problems with cult-like thinking is that it often only sees 
in black and white. With the program or off the program. Purity or 
impurity. Right technique or wrong technique.

Therefore when people comment on cult-like thinking, the observations 
may appear black and white--but it's merely a comment on what's being 
seen.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






In one sense, hearing stories like this is a bit 
liberating,because you can't even resent the idiots who did thisor have 
any ill wishes towards them. Any ill-wishing would be completely 
redundant and useless. To be able to think like this, and justify this 
kind of action, thepeople responsible *already* have to live in 
basicallythe lowest state of attention possible. To be angry 
atthem or wish them ill (even though they might deserve it) would be 
like hoping for bad things to happen to someone who is already a resident of 
the lowest circle of Hell.

--You don't sound like 
you're having too much fun. I hope the rest of the trip is 
better.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread Ingegerd

I think my friend is more enlightened than most of us. He meditates 
TM regular, he is very devoted to the Ved and he encourage people to 
start with TM. He has tried several times to apply for the TM-Sidhi-
course, they don't even bother to answer him, and still he has no 
bitterness and anger. Just a beautiful person.
Ingegerd

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  One of my friends has been meditating for about 30 years. He 
wanted 
  to be a TM-Teacher in the 70ths and worked as staff in Seelisberg 
to 
  accomplish that. His brother went over to another Organisation as 
a 
  meditation-teacher. My friend was sent home from Seelisberg in 
  disgrace because of that - and was denied to be a TM-Teacher and 
a 
  Sidha.
 
 In one sense, hearing stories like this is a bit liberating,
 because you can't even resent the idiots who did this
 or have any ill wishes towards them.  Any ill-wishing 
 would be completely redundant and useless.  To be 
 able to think like this, and justify this kind of action, the
 people responsible *already* have to live in basically
 the lowest state of attention possible.  To be angry at
 them or wish them ill (even though they might deserve 
 it) would be like hoping for bad things to happen to 
 someone who is already a resident of the lowest circle 
 of Hell.
 
 In a Tibetan text I have somewhere in storage, there 
 is an interesting passage.  It says that the worst possible
 karma that a human being could incur -- the WORST 
 action that a being could possibly perform, in any 
 incarnation -- is to deny another being access to enlight-
 enment when it is in your power to grant it.
 
 Thus, interestingly, excommunication from a path that
 espouses enlightenment is worse for the person doing
 the excommunicating than it is for the person who is being
 theoretically cut off.  According to this text, the person
 who has  been driven out of the ashram could simply 
 find another ashram and another teacher, and thus regain 
 access to the path.  But the person or persons who drove 
 him out could spend thousands of lifetimes lost and *really*
 cut off from liberation.
 
 Unc





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

They have their logic. I think you need to answer the question I
asked several posts back about keeping the purity of the teachiing.I
have to ask myself this question: If there was littleattempt to keep the
purity of the teaching by being careful whatgets interjected and absorbed in
to it, what would happen over timeto the teaching of the knowledge. I think
everyone here should tryan honest open minded objective attempt to answer
this PARTICULARquestion precisely (and concisely)OffWorld-I think that attempting to answer you on point is an exercise
in fallacy (because you're obviously a fucking lunatic), but here
goes.

A person cannot control
anything. Just when you get your meditation center set up an earthquake knocks
it down. Just when you request the amount of money needed to cover the
mere costs of the teachings someone objects and you take a loss. Just when you
learn one set of mantras the guru creates a new set and forbids the old ones.
Just when you initiated ten thousand meditators your priviliges for performing
the ceremony are revoked. There is no purity of the teachings. Because that
implies the ability to control them, which implies that all the chaotic and mind
staggering possibilities for change can be limited to a set of rules or
standards. This is maya. This questing to control. One who demands
control against all odds is a Mara.

The only thing that can preserve
a tradition is love, not rules, not institutions, not an army of soldiers with
shoulder nukes. Love. If people love TM and the TMO then it will remain.
If they don't it will corrupt. Fini. Has little to do with any specific
element of the teaching exactly.

Same with America. Same with the
Catholic Church. Same with relationships. Same with everything. Only love for it
can preserve it. All other means to preserve it will fail.

And then there's the opposite
which is that what one once loved through too much control loses the freedom of
the more spacious elements and becomes dense and heavy and so loses its original
base and premise. This happens all the time.

What I wish for you Off, is that
you recognize the glass bars of the TMO cage and learn someday that though they
lured you into a spacious cage with transparent bars, that you're still in a
cage.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

 --Ken Wilber

Just another wuss who justifies believing he's right about things.  :-)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Sorry to ramble, but there are days when the weirdass
 things that spiritual traditions do to its followers just blow
 my mind.  
 Unc
 
 
 Your incredulity is mere smugness of an inner fanaticism with your 
 own boundaries. Whether truer or more open than others, it's still a cage. 

True, but my own, and clean.  :-)

 Here I threw you a bone of modern French culture in Noir Desir and 
 what did you do, you totally ignored it. I was trying to make a connection 
 with you and your beloved France, and in your smugness you merely 
 flipped me off.  And then as pretentious as you are you act as if that's 
 cultured. 

I was fucking with you, dude.  I know the group, and their music.
I think both are mediocre beyond belief, and thought that long
before the drug-addled leader of the band decided to beat his
movie star girlfriend into a bloody pulp.  I was trying to avoid 
saying so, since you seem to like them.

It's not just that (as you said) the French language and rock 'n 
roll don't mix well.  It's that in any language I have very high
standards for music and even higher standards for songwriting 
and Noir Desir satisfies neither.  If you like them, it seemed 
obvious that we probably weren't going to have many musical 
groups to agree on, that's all.  

 You're in what I call second middle agedness. 

And you're in what I call Need To Bag mode.  :-)  It's Ok.  If
it makes you feel better to put a label on something or 
someone, go for it.  :-)

 In second childhood people act bizarre trying to make up for lost 
 experience. In second middle agedness a person more quickly throws 
 off all ideas that they haven't experienced as unimportant thus puffing 
 up their own ego.  

And in Need To Bag mode, people sometimes need to label
others who don't react as they were expected to react.  :-)

 So have fun in the South of France. If you can get past your own mind 
 to experience anything else.

Thanks, I will.  

Unc






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)





 The trouble with this analysis is that 
it's all black-and-white, no shades of gray.One of the problems 
with cult-like thinking is that it often only sees in black and white. With 
the program or off the program. Purity or impurity. Right technique or wrong 
technique.Therefore when people comment on cult-like thinking, the 
observations may appear black and white--but it's merely a comment on what's 
being seen.---Actually your reification of 'cult-like' thinking 
takes place upon some assumed superior conceptual framework where 'cult-like' 
has some meaning. However, viewing the situation without labels one would 
immediately see that there is no TMO at all, there are many diifferent people 
and not much in common, besides basic TM practice. People are free to reiterate 
whichever aspect of the 'Vedic Science' - 'SCI' - whathaveyou, as they wish. The 
only thing barring them is money. Even Robin Carlson would be allowed back 
into the TMO if he had the bucks. So don't pretend that your view is superior as 
"it's merely a comment on what's being seen." One only sees what they see, 
and everything else is merely conceptualization. Free your mind. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 In one sense, hearing stories like this is a bit liberating,
 because you can't even resent the idiots who did this
 or have any ill wishes towards them.  Any ill-wishing 
 would be completely redundant and useless.  To be 
 able to think like this, and justify this kind of action, the
 people responsible *already* have to live in basically
 the lowest state of attention possible.  To be angry at
 them or wish them ill (even though they might deserve 
 it) would be like hoping for bad things to happen to 
 someone who is already a resident of the lowest circle 
 of Hell.
 
 --You don't sound like you're having too much fun. I hope the rest of 
 the trip is better.

A valid point.  I spent the day yesterday with a priest friend
who was showing me around the parts of the Palais des Papes
in Avignon that the tourists can't get to.  This involved the secret
passages that the Popes used to get to their mistresses' rooms
and down to the torture chambers, where they gleefully joined
in.  So logging on to FFL just after that and hearing more stories
of the TM Inquisition in action did push a few already-pushed
buttons.

Unc






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






I was fucking with you, dude. I know the group, and their 
music.I think both are mediocre beyond belief, and thought that 
longbefore the drug-addled leader of the band decided to beat hismovie 
star girlfriend into a bloody pulp. I was trying to avoid saying so, 
since you seem to like them.


-Your not liking them can hardly hurt my liking 
them so why not be honest and say what you mean. You have no idea who I am or 
what hurts my feelings or influences me. I asked you for info. You turned 
a cold shoulder. You're dead wrong about Noir Desir, just as when you say you 
have high standards for music what does that really mean? You're an expert? 
Yeah, that means a real lot. 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --Ken Wilber
 
 Just another wuss who justifies believing he's right about 
things.  :-)

Try actually reading what he said, instead
of what you would like him to have said so
that you could continue to believe you're
right about things.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






you can't even resent the idiots who did thisor have any ill 
wishes towards them.


-Because they actually weren't idiots. 
Thinking that people are idiots is really just idiotic. Because on the one 
hand there are no "people" at all. There are individuals. And on the other 
to lump all "people" together is unjust for those who were inimicable. 
You're like the least Buddhistic Buddhist I have ever come across. 
Buddhism at essence is about experiencing things first hand and not about 
conceptualizing everything and then dissing it. 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






A valid point. I spent the day yesterday with a priest 
friendwho was showing me around the parts of the Palais des Papesin 
Avignon that the tourists can't get to. This involved the 
secretpassages that the Popes used to get to their mistresses' roomsand 
down to the torture chambers, where they gleefully joinedin. So 
logging on to FFL just after that and hearing more storiesof the TM 
Inquisition in action did push a few 
already-pushedbuttons.UncGotcha. 

That's sweet. 

The idea that the TMO couldn't evolve into the same self satisfied and self 
righteous institution as the Church is bogus because TMO is already many 
millions of light years ahead in terms of numbers and basic influence than Jesus 
was during his life. There is no certainty, but there is a possibility that the 
TMO could overtake the Church for numbers and influence someday. This is why I 
find TMO so fascinating. It's like I've seen all this before so many times 
now. Shankara was no different. 

That all said, the real institution of religion is in the heart. 
Buildings all be damned. Give that shit to the poor and hurt. A real religion 
would tear its own breast out and actively seek to immolate itself in charity. 
Especially if it's advaita. 

Of course the argument goes that the real way to help is to uncover the 
eternal bliss ofpure consciousness, not to merely feed the bellies of the 
needy. But then as the Catholic Church points out, the system does become merely 
spiritual autoeroticism.A balance is needed. People need to uncover their 
bliss so that they can give to others.

If paradox didn't lie at the very heart of the system then it wouldn't be 
life-like. Because life is a paradox in every possible way. It's 
really beautiful.









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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)


On Jul 21, 2004, at 10:04 AM, Llundrub wrote:

---Actually your reification of 'cult-like' thinking takes place upon some assumed superior conceptual framework where 'cult-like' has some meaning.  However, viewing the situation without labels one would immediately see that there is no TMO at all, there are many diifferent people and not much in common, besides basic TM practice. People are free to reiterate whichever aspect of the 'Vedic Science' - 'SCI' - whathaveyou, as they wish. The only thing barring them is money.  Even Robin Carlson would be allowed back into the TMO if he had the bucks. So don't pretend that your view is superior as it's merely a comment on what's being seen.  One only sees what they see, and everything else is merely conceptualization. Free your mind. 

It was merely a comment of black and white thinking--the subject being discussed. When people comment on it, it will show that quality, that' s all. You always seem to want to assume others are putting labels on things as you add the labels yourself. Just because you assume evil or hatred or whatever does not mean that is what the speaker intended--it's your label. Whatever. Label on Lludrub.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On Jul 21, 2005, at 8:50 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
  The trouble with this analysis is that it's
  all black-and-white, no shades of gray.
 
 One of the problems with cult-like thinking is that it often only 
 sees in black and white. With the program or off the program. 
 Purity or impurity. Right technique or wrong technique.
 
 Therefore when people comment on cult-like thinking, the 
 observations may appear black and white--but it's merely a comment 
 on what's being seen.

The black-and-white thinking I was referring to
sees only cultlike thinking versus non-cultlike
thinking (the latter being the thinking of the
critic, of course).  There are, in fact, many
shades in between (as I pointed out in the part
of my post you chose not to quote and perhaps 
didn't bother to read), as well as overlaps in
which the critic engages in anticult cultlike
thinking.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  you can't even resent the idiots who did this
 or have any ill wishes towards them. 
 
 
 -Because they actually weren't idiots.  Thinking that people are idiots 
 is 
really just idiotic.  Because on the one hand there are no people at all. 
There 
are individuals.  

And some of those individuals are idiots.  Idiots with 
Buddha-nature, but then a turnip has Buddha-nature,
and would have been smarter than to pull a stunt like
this...  :-)

 And on the other to lump all people together is unjust for those who were 
inimicable.  You're like the least Buddhistic Buddhist I have ever come across.

Thank you.

  Buddhism at essence is about experiencing things first hand and not about 
conceptualizing everything and then dissing it.

Oh?  I was following your lead.  :-)

I'm not a Buddhist per se, by the way.  I'm not anything in 
particular per se.  Buddhism has for me the most resonance 
I've found in a major spiritual path, but that's the extent of it.
There is dogma in traditional Buddhism I don't believe for
a minute, never will, and won't ever feel bad about not 
believing.  Just clarifying that.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 A valid point.  I spent the day yesterday with a priest friend
 who was showing me around the parts of the Palais des Papes
 in Avignon that the tourists can't get to.  This involved the secret
 passages that the Popes used to get to their mistresses' rooms
 and down to the torture chambers, where they gleefully joined
 in.  So logging on to FFL just after that and hearing more stories
 of the TM Inquisition in action did push a few already-pushed
 buttons.

 
 Gotcha. 
 
 That's sweet. 
 
 The idea that the TMO couldn't evolve into the same self satisfied and self 
righteous institution as the Church is bogus because TMO is already many 
millions of light years ahead in terms of numbers and basic influence than 
Jesus was during his life. There is no certainty, but there is a possibility 
that 
the TMO could overtake the Church for numbers and influence someday. 

And in corruption and evil as well.

It's not likely, in my opinion, because I really don't see the TMO
lasting long enough or having enough members to get really 
evil on for that to happen, but the propensity is certainly there.
They've already got the faithful trained to overlook minor outrages;
from there it's just a short hop to getting them to overlook major 
outrages.

But it's not gonna happen, because IMO, unless something radical
happens to change the karmas, the TMO is going to be non-existent
within 20 years.

 This is why I find TMO so fascinating.  It's like I've seen all this before 
 so 
many times now. Shankara was no different. 

Absolutely.

 That all said, the real institution of religion is in the heart.  Buildings 
 all be 
damned. 

Absolutely.

 Give that shit to the poor and hurt. A real religion would tear its own 
 breast 
out and actively seek to immolate itself in charity. Especially if it's 
advaita. 

Couldn't agree more.  The desire to create buildings and
perpetuate itself almost *always* indicates a religion or
spiritual path that has already died internally.

 Of course the argument goes that the real way to help is to uncover the 
eternal bliss of pure consciousness, not to merely feed the bellies of the 
needy. But then as the Catholic Church points out, the system does become 
merely spiritual autoeroticism. A balance is needed. People need to uncover 
their bliss so that they can give to others. 

And they need to be taught the joy of giving it to others.  It
should be intuitive, but obviously is not.  Look how quickly
those who got into the biz to help others become bureau-
crats whose only mission in life is to raise money to perpetuate
their own jobs.  

 If paradox didn't lie at the very heart of the system then it wouldn't be 
 life-
like.  Because life is a paradox in every possible way.  It's really beautiful.

Yup.  I agree, even though I can rail about it sometimes.  
Interestingly enough, the spiritual teacher who for me said
it the best wasn't a spiritual teacher in the common sense
at all (although he was), but a movie star:

Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy
in long shot.   - Charlie Chaplin








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread lupidus108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I think my friend is more enlightened than most of us. He meditates 
 TM regular, he is very devoted to the Ved and he encourage people to 
 start with TM. He has tried several times to apply for the TM-Sidhi-
 course, they don't even bother to answer him, and still he has no 
 bitterness and anger. Just a beautiful person.
 Ingegerd

Thats a onesided story. Obviously the TMO must have strong reasons for 
not wanting him on the course.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread markmeredith2002


  The idea that the TMO couldn't evolve into the same self satisfied
and self 
 righteous institution as the Church is bogus because TMO is already
many 
 millions of light years ahead in terms of numbers and basic
influence than 
 Jesus was during his life. There is no certainty, but there is a
possibility that 
 the TMO could overtake the Church for numbers and influence someday. 

Jesus did not establish a Church which gradually grew into a world
dominant religion.  The followers of Jesus' teachings had splintered
into innumerable different and often competing sects soon after his
death.  The rapid growth of the church came after emperor constantine
adopted a particularly authoritarian and patriarchal version as rome's
state religion for political reasons some 300 yrs after Jesus' death.  

As for the TMO, about 99% of tm teachers were recently relieved of
their duties, initiations are pretty much dead, enrollments at mum and
other tmo institutions have been in decline for awhile -- and all this
decline while the founder is still alive.  What will happen when the
prime source of inspiration in the tmo is gone and it's left with
bevan and the nephews to keep spirits up??

Donations are still pretty good though and maybe something will
survive in India where the money is all going.  There are surely
dozens of emerging religions with more numbers and clout than the tmo
-- hell, even the rev. moon has tons more money and is deeply in bed
with the party in power in DC.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread L B Shriver

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
   IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
   isn't.  
  
  They have their logic. 
  I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts back 
  about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
  I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
  attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what
  gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over time
  to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should try
  an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR
  question precisely (and concisely)
 
 Well, it's deteriorating despite (and also
 in many respects because of) the TMO's best
 efforts to maintain the purity--not within
 the TMO itself, but outside of it.
 
 Whether you think the purity of the teaching
 is important depends on whether you think the
 teaching is definitive, of course.
 
 (I'm referring here to the teaching about the
 nature and mechanics of consciousness, not to
 any of the subsidiary stuff, politics and
 Rajas and so on.)
 
   And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
  
  I think it's based on logic. see above.
 
 Seems to me the intense, emotional resistance
 to the measures for preserving the purity of
 the teaching may itself be based on fear, the
 fear of committing oneself (not to the TMO
 per se but to the teaching).
 
 It's one thing to disapprove of the various
 excesses of the movement control freaks that
 go way beyond the logic of it; it's quite
 another to tie oneself into knots about it
 and start comparing it to the Inquisition 
 and similar outrages.  That's just not a
 rational response.



Interesting discussion. Yes, the purity of the teaching is a technical 
challenge that flies in 
the face of time and entropy. Just keep rolling that boulder up the mountain.

I agree that it's foolish to tie onself into knots over the excesses of the 
movement. On the 
other hand, it doesn't seem so outrageous to compare them to the Inquisition. 
While many 
of the excesses that have been observed here are in fact excesses of individual 
zeal, there 
is also a pattern of institutional excesses. That is, certain repeated abuses 
(a judgement 
call admitted in that word) could only have been a matter of policy. For 
example, the 
spying. Also disturbing, the reliance on anonymous informants.

It is difficult for a rational and reasonable person to encompass irrationality 
in his/her 
thought patterns. Therefore it is frequently found that people simply can't 
imagine the 
depths to which the movement has sunk in varioius periods.

Nevertheless, I think that the greatest source of outrage against movement 
excesses is the 
pain of waking from a murky slumber, induced by a sleeping potion heavily laced 
with 
denial. In my own case, for example, there were certain assumptions about the 
nature of 
the organization that I clung to far beyond any evidence for their usefulness. 
I would 
guess that the broadest general category of such misimpressions has to do with 
the cult 
nature of the TMO. To deny that it is a cult is to place oneself outside the 
domain of 
mainstream rationality. Once it is acknowledged to be a cult, however, it can 
be allowed 
that some of its policies may in fact be reasonable, given that context. 
However, almost no 
assertion of irrationality can be dismissed out of hand. It must be considered 
on the basis 
of the evidence.

This is often difficult to do from a distance. To live in Fairfield, however, 
is to have access 
to a great number of disturbing reports which would normally not circulate 
outside of 
Jefferson County. Some of them turn out to be false and unfounded, but on the 
whole they 
paint a picture that resembles a giant version of those plastic tokens that 
look like one 
thing when looked at one way, and something entirely different when looked at 
from a 
different angle.

Personally, I feel that the purity of the teaching as I have understood it 
has already been 
lost. There is very little there left preserving, and that which is worthy of 
preserving can 
best be saved outside the context of the organization.

L B S




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread Robert Gimbel

---I'm not sure what is the difference between so-called established 
religion and cults.
The difference ultimately between the TM movement, and the rest, is 
that Maharishi believes that his teaching, which he received from 
Guru Dev, was and is an evlivenment of the basis of all religions or 
cults.
Pure-Consciousness, The Light of God; The Transcendent; direct 
experience of the Atma, and the transcendence of ego;
This is the basis of this so-called, Purity of the Teaching.
My experience in Fairfield and in the Movement is that it is 
susceptible to egos, which haven't been transcended, yet.
In other word's, any organization, any country, or kingdom is as 
good as the consciousness of the leadership.
Unenlightened leadership of all religions and or cults has cause 
havoc in world history, misery and suffering.
All of this in the name of the basis of any true religion, which 
like someone said earlier, is Love. The process of love, and 
experience of love in the creation, can only produce peace, harmony, 
and purity. True purity, is living life as the Creator intended, 
which by definition, is always the opposite of what ego's, would 
defend.
In enlightenment the fight is transcended; fight is by definition, 
is something of the ego's invention..



 In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
  snip
IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
isn't.  
   
   They have their logic. 
   I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts 
back 
   about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
   I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
   attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful 
what
   gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over 
time
   to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should 
try
   an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this 
PARTICULAR
   question precisely (and concisely)
  
  Well, it's deteriorating despite (and also
  in many respects because of) the TMO's best
  efforts to maintain the purity--not within
  the TMO itself, but outside of it.
  
  Whether you think the purity of the teaching
  is important depends on whether you think the
  teaching is definitive, of course.
  
  (I'm referring here to the teaching about the
  nature and mechanics of consciousness, not to
  any of the subsidiary stuff, politics and
  Rajas and so on.)
  
And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
   
   I think it's based on logic. see above.
  
  Seems to me the intense, emotional resistance
  to the measures for preserving the purity of
  the teaching may itself be based on fear, the
  fear of committing oneself (not to the TMO
  per se but to the teaching).
  
  It's one thing to disapprove of the various
  excesses of the movement control freaks that
  go way beyond the logic of it; it's quite
  another to tie oneself into knots about it
  and start comparing it to the Inquisition 
  and similar outrages.  That's just not a
  rational response.
 
 
 
 Interesting discussion. Yes, the purity of the teaching is a 
technical challenge that flies in 
 the face of time and entropy. Just keep rolling that boulder up 
the mountain.
 
 I agree that it's foolish to tie onself into knots over the 
excesses of the movement. On the 
 other hand, it doesn't seem so outrageous to compare them to the 
Inquisition. While many 
 of the excesses that have been observed here are in fact excesses 
of individual zeal, there 
 is also a pattern of institutional excesses. That is, certain 
repeated abuses (a judgement 
 call admitted in that word) could only have been a matter of 
policy. For example, the 
 spying. Also disturbing, the reliance on anonymous informants.
 
 It is difficult for a rational and reasonable person to encompass 
irrationality in his/her 
 thought patterns. Therefore it is frequently found that people 
simply can't imagine the 
 depths to which the movement has sunk in varioius periods.
 
 Nevertheless, I think that the greatest source of outrage against 
movement excesses is the 
 pain of waking from a murky slumber, induced by a sleeping potion 
heavily laced with 
 denial. In my own case, for example, there were certain 
assumptions about the nature of 
 the organization that I clung to far beyond any evidence for their 
usefulness. I would 
 guess that the broadest general category of such misimpressions 
has to do with the cult 
 nature of the TMO. To deny that it is a cult is to place oneself 
outside the domain of 
 mainstream rationality. Once it is acknowledged to be a cult, 
however, it can be allowed 
 that some of its policies may in fact be reasonable, given that 
context. However, almost no

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






---Actually 
  your reification of 'cult-like' thinking takes place upon some assumed 
  superior conceptual framework where 'cult-like' has some meaning. 
  However, viewing the situation without labels one would immediately see that 
  there is no TMO at all, there are many diifferent people and not much in 
  common, besides basic TM practice. People are free to reiterate whichever 
  aspect of the 'Vedic Science' - 'SCI' - whathaveyou, as they wish. The only 
  thing barring them is money. Even Robin Carlson would be allowed back 
  into the TMO if he had the bucks. So don't pretend that your view is superior 
  as "it's merely a comment on what's being seen." One only sees what they 
  see, and everything else is merely conceptualization. Free your mind. 

It was merely a comment of black and white thinking--the subject being 
discussed. When people comment on it, it will show that quality, that' s all. 
You always seem to want to assume others are putting labels on things as you add 
the labels yourself. Just because you assume "evil" or "hatred" or whatever does 
not mean that is what the speaker intended--it's your label. Whatever. Label on 
Lludrub.

I don't think I ever used the 
words "evil" or 
"hatred." What's ironic to me 
is that you always are assuming I said something which I didn't say, to which 
you then respond, while you never actually read what I say. I suggest that 
much of what you interpret as others misinterpeting you is produced by your 
misinterpreting them. 

For instance I was 
commenting that you cannot have cult-like thinking without defining what a cult 
is.Then one merely lumps some organization into their preconceptual 
framework and says, "it's merely a comment on what's being 
seen." I always find this ironic coming from a person who supposedly 
practices trekchod, that is, someone who can cut through all conceptual bullshit 
to see what exists. It's obvious that no such thing as a TMO exists. If 
you say,"not" then please show me exactly where the TMO 
lies?

Is it SIMS, MIMS, PIMS, or 
MIU, MUM,or Capitols for the World, or Supreme Intelligence, Council of 
Nine, Maharishi, Bevan, Neil, John? India, Fairfield?Where exactly is the 
TMO and what exactly does it stand for?The TMO is only now being 
defined, but such definition isn't stable.

It's sad that all I am trying always 
to do with you Vaj is show that you are stuck in a conceptual framework of your 
own making. I am not showing that you are good or evil. I am merely showing that 
in spite of high falutin and often specious esotericism you are no different 
from anyone else here, myself included. We are all just labeling things. 


I actually am certain that TMO is a 
cult, but then so is every other schism of thought on Earth. Including 
little old ladies who cut out coupons to supposedly save on their groceries. The 
honest fact is that you have never really seen through my words to their essence 
which is the relativity of conceptualization in general. 

Most of what I do on this group is 
like holding up a mirror, and every time I hold one up to you you just swing 
your hand like at a fly. It makes me especially mad at you because I expected 
you to be more reflective since we share some more esoteric teachings, but 
you're never representin. Moreover you're constantly putting on more makeup. 


If there is a real person in there 
Vaj, I would like to see it, not the house of cards reactionary. The fact 
that you can't argue with me using the words that are used in the argument 
without bringing in some extraneous issues which weren't even present means that 
you're not a very brilliant sparring partner, so why not instead just be open 
and say what you mean? 

The fact is that you and I are just 
not a good mix because everything you write makes me think of the materialistic 
close mindedness that used to really bother me in my mother. Really. I find you 
to be a total materialist without the slightest mystical bent. In spite of what 
you seem to espouse your over rationalism of things which cannot be 
conceptualized shows a very grasping and but anti-laconic individual. 


Sort of like, "Hey Mom, you can see 
Aurora Borealis from Laguna Beach tonight for the first time in 50,000 years. 
Isn't that cool?" -Makesure thatyou wear a coat Son and button 
up. If you get a cold and miss work then..." Yeah, that's what you remind 
me of. 

She has gotten better. 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






I'm 
not a Buddhist per se, by the way. I'm not anything in particular per 
se. Buddhism has for me the most resonance I've found in a major 
spiritual path, but that's the extent of it.There is dogma in traditional 
Buddhism I don't believe fora minute, never will, and won't ever feel bad 
about not believing. Just clarifying that.The wily 
snake still gets its head chopped off. The shark that bites and swims away, 
still gets speared another day. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lupidus108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I think my friend is more enlightened than most of us. He meditates 
  TM regular, he is very devoted to the Ved and he encourage people to 
  start with TM. He has tried several times to apply for the TM-Sidhi-
  course, they don't even bother to answer him, and still he has no 
  bitterness and anger. Just a beautiful person.
  Ingegerd
 
 Thats a onesided story. Obviously the TMO must have strong reasons for 
 not wanting him on the course.

And those reasons are valid, simply because the TMO has them?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread Robert Gimbel

--This was lifted from: Path's to God, and the Language of 
Nature...Which can be linked @: 

 http://vinyasi.mayashastra.org/essays/coorespondence/  

The path of tamas, the death of death itself (the path of Shiva, 
which is freedom from the wheel of necessity, or rebirths, and 
freedom from incessant karma), is the fastest path and the most 
complete (since it is cosmically liberating) and only one of many 
and various paths available. Transcendental Meditation utilizes this 
path. Since sound is the fastest of the five senses to fertilize our 
evolving consciousness, a mantra is selected whose design is 
predicated on the quality of the aspirant's particular nervous 
system along with the goal which is intended: transcendence of the 
thinking process. (Silently inner) japa meditation (repetition) is 
utilized since it is the quietly, voiceless, thought-sound of the 
mantra, not its contemplative meaning, which is significantly 
inherent within the sense of hearing. Word-meaning-comprehension is 
within the subtle sense of touch and slower than sound's 
evolutionary value. The use of hearing is faster than the use of 
word-meaning when seeking to evolve our consciousness. Our lives are 
short, so the fastest path is given to humanity to achieve the goal 
of full enlightenment through the quiet repetition of the Word (the 
sound) of the mantra (within the mind) and below the threshold of 
physical hearing (within the quiet threshold of the thought of its 
mere sound). Meaning is of the heart chakra, while sound is of the 
throat chakra. Meaning leaves a much bigger impression upon the 
individual, while sound leaves less behind in its wake. The essence 
of evolutionary karma is to perform actions which leave less 
intensity of impression than their results which are sought. All 
actions leave an impression, but it is the result of action, not its 
impression, which is sought after. Impression is the cost of action 
and will eventually need to be unstressed regardless of the merit of 
its result or the merit of the impression. Impressions may be good, 
bad, or indifferent, but their intensity should still be of concern 
to the aspirant who considers their performance beforehand or in 
hindsight for future reference. This is where the phrase: Tread 
lightly while upon the earth comes in handy unless you're into the 
art of making heavy-duty payments for everything that you do.



- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm not a Buddhist per se, by the way.  I'm not anything in 
 particular per se.  Buddhism has for me the most resonance 
 I've found in a major spiritual path, but that's the extent of it.
 There is dogma in traditional Buddhism I don't believe for
 a minute, never will, and won't ever feel bad about not 
 believing.  Just clarifying that.
 
 
 
 The wily snake still gets its head chopped off. The shark that 
bites and swims away, still gets speared another day.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






recently relieved oftheir duties, initiations are pretty much dead, 
enrollments at mum andother tmo institutions have been in decline for awhile 
-- and all thisdecline while the founder is still alive. What will 
happen when theprime source of inspiration in the tmo is gone and it's left 
withbevan and the nephews to keep spirits up??

---My point was that Jesus only had followers which were localized 
at first to his central area in the Mid east. Maharishi however, already 
has spread to the far corners of the world. His growth due to modern 
communication and travel was exponentially faster and larger than that of Jesus. 
Moreover, in the Vedas Maharishi finds a tradition older than Judaism, and a 
religion which in many ways makes more sense and in many ways is more liberal 
than Judiasm, the base religion of Jesus. 

Moreover in countries not really caring about Western values of 
Democracy and such TMO can be perceived in a much different way. Especially in 
such bumfuck backwards countries as Russia which has never had human rights. 


I'm not saying that TMO will survive, but I think that if you think 
that it cannot survive and even grow then you're overlooking the basic 
irrational nature of humans and the ability for memes to spread like chicken pox 
or aids, regardless of any specific rational tenet for their existance. 


I think that we here are very much like those looking at the threads of 
the cloth through a microscope because we are so very close to the inception of 
the religion. But in the future we will be forced to step back and see that the 
cloth was a whole item after all. 

---Maharishi's proclaimation that teachers have to be recertified 
is merely water under the bridge. It was a movement political expedient which 
was to grab those people still actively participating and to kick them in the 
butt to participate more. An analogy is grabbing ones lazy, tired pot 
washer and telling them they're fired if they don't get back to work. 


Now is the pot washer really fired? Not really. Maharishi's 
proclamation didn't make it everywhere, and in the future when the controlling 
few pundits rewrite the rules for the TMO, those with the huge tape libraries 
and means, then they will rewrite the Movement to suit the times, and their way 
of figuring that out will be based upon the donations. Yep, there it is. The 
donations will show what people think of the value of the Movement. 

It's all my speculation. But stranger things have happened. 









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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

On Jul 21, 2004, at 12:46 PM, Llundrub wrote:

I don't think I ever used the words evil or hatred.

Selective memory perhaps?

The honest fact is that you have never really seen through my words to their essence which is the relativity of conceptualization in general.

Never? Seems you and Off World possess similar siddhis.

Most of what I do on this group is like holding up a mirror, and every time I hold one up to you you just swing your hand like at a fly.

Every time?

It makes me especially mad at you because I expected you to be more reflective since we share some more esoteric teachings, but you're never representin.

Never? Man that's a lot of absolutes. I have not felt I was here to represent esoteric teachings--maybe talk about what a path different people may take beyond TM and how they integrate what they already have. That's my greatest interest. Paths are relative. And there are different paths for different people--even if that means 'no path'.

I have heard you talk about various esoteric Buddhist topics, but honestly from my perspective you seem to miss the points much of the time--and I know lamas have told you this as well. Interesting concepts if that's what your into (and I certainly respect your right to do that if you wish), but it's really about experience and life. How well can you integrate it into your life? How well can I integrate it into my life?

But to be clear, I have a very clear idea of what my intent is and what's behind it. I do not typically fly off the handle, half-cocked. It's just part of the way I was trained but more importantly because it is something I find useful and practical. Therefore when someone else tries to tell 'what I think or what I mean and it's off base, I can recognize that. So if you have a specific beef, quote me. Otherwise I just sense reaction outside what I am saying. Sure I could say where I feel that's coming from, but these are really personal issues for the individual to work out. It's particularly interesting to me when we can simply state things 'as they are'--as what other people *assume* you mean tells you more about them and their underlying motivations/attachments.

Moreover you're constantly putting on more makeup.

Constantly? How would you know? Could you quote me?

Maybe I was sitting here naked the whole time.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

   Moreover you're constantly putting on more makeup.
 
 Constantly? How would you know? Could you quote me?
 
 Maybe I was sitting here naked the whole time.

Nothing personal, but if we ever get into a discussion
I'm gonna stick with the mental image of you wearing
makeup, rather than the one of you sitting there naked.  :-)






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)


On Jul 21, 2005, at 1:32 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 Nothing personal, but if we ever get into a discussion
 I'm gonna stick with the mental image of you wearing
 makeup, rather than the one of you sitting there naked.  :-)

And I do appreciate that. :-)



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)





  Thats a onesided story. Obviously 
the TMO must have strong reasons for  not wanting him on the 
course.And those reasons are valid, simply because the TMO has 
them?---Like he isn't a 6.9 version enlightened synchophant of the 6th 
ray, but a mere 2.4 verson quasi-awakened acolyte of the long passed 2nd ray. 
He's out of synch with the Seventh coming Ray Dude. It's obvious. 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






I have heard you talk "about" various esoteric Buddhist topics, but 
honestly from my perspective you seem to miss the points much of the time--and I 
know lamas have told you this as well. Interesting concepts if that's what your 
into (and I certainly respect your right to do that if you wish), but it's 
really about experience and life. How well can you integrate it into your life? 
How well can I integrate it into my life?

---Have you? Which 
lamas?
But to be clear, I have a very clear idea of what my intent is and 
what's behind it. I do not typically fly off the handle, half-cocked. 


Mixed metaphor.



It's just part of the way I was trained but more importantly because it is 
something I find useful and practical. 


What is? I don't get what 
youre refering to. 


Therefore when someone else tries to tell 'what I think" or "what I mean" 
and it's off base, I can recognize that. 

Like when you saw that I said 
you were evil or bad? As you had said above?

So if you have a specific beef, quote me. 


I could easily. Already you 
maligned me saying you have heard me say Buddhist things against some lama's 
wishes. That's pure bull. 

Otherwise I just sense reaction outside what I am saying. Sure I could say 
where I feel that's coming from, but these are really personal issues for the 
individual to work out. 


---Well come on man, tell me why Ii 
should be angry at you. You doo admit that there's some reason then 
aye? That's interesting. I hadn't really considered that. 

It's particularly interesting to me when we can simply state things 'as 
they are'--as what other people *assume* you mean tells you more about them and 
their underlying motivations/attachments.


---Ditto. 

Moreover 
  you're constantly putting on more 
makeup.
Constantly? How would you know? Could you quote me?

---Sure like when you assumed that I 
assumed you were evil or bad in the above comment. When I never assumed or 
stated anything of the sort. That was applying a layer of makeup to what should 
have been merely face. 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm not saying that TMO will survive, but I think that if you think that it 
 cannot 
survive and even grow then you're overlooking the basic irrational nature of 
humans and the ability for memes to spread like chicken pox or aids, 
regardless of any specific rational tenet for their existance. 
 
 I think that we here are very much like those looking at the threads of the 
cloth through a microscope because we are so very close to the inception of 
the religion. But in the future we will be forced to step back and see that the 
cloth was a whole item after all.  
 
 ---Maharishi's proclaimation that teachers have to be recertified is 
 merely 
water under the bridge. It was a movement political expedient which was to 
grab those people still actively participating and to kick them in the butt to 
participate more.  An analogy is grabbing ones lazy, tired pot washer and 
telling them they're fired if they don't get back to work. 
 
 Now is the pot washer really fired?  Not really.  Maharishi's proclamation 
didn't make it everywhere, and in the future when the controlling few pundits 
rewrite the rules for the TMO, those with the huge tape libraries and means, 
then they will rewrite the Movement to suit the times, and their way of 
figuring 
that out will be based upon the donations. Yep, there it is. The donations will 
show what people think of the value of the Movement. 
 
 It's all my speculation.  But stranger things have happened.

I think you're right on.  I've already watched the rewriting
of history take place several times in the TMO, and I left
in 1978 or so.  Some legal case would come up, and we
in the Regional Office would be asked (asked is very
much a euphemism here...more like the demand would
come down from International) to recall all of a certain
set of audio or video tapes.  Those tapes would then 
disappear, never to be seen or heard again.

After a while the people in the individual TM centers 
got hip to what was happening and, when we would
call and ask for the tapes back, they'd say they'd lost
them.  

None of the many failed predictions will be recorded,
only the handful that worked out anything like what he
predicted.  None of the icky stuff that's happened along
the way like covered-up suicides is going to be recorded
or remembered, only stuff about how Maharishi could
personally levitate and disappear and walk on yogurt
and stuff like that.  You all remember seeing that stuff, 
right?  :-)

Mark my words...within five years after the man dies, you
will *have* to remember that stuff to be welcome around
the people who will take over the TMO after him.  It'll take 
20 years or so for the virgin birth myths to take hold, but 
the miracle stories will start right away.  

Unc






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)


On Jul 21, 2004, at 1:37 PM, Llundrub wrote:

It's just part of the way I was trained but more importantly because it is something I find useful and practical.
 
 
What is?  I don't get what youre refering to.

Checking ones motivation, ones own underlying motivation.

  
 
Therefore when someone else tries to tell 'what I think or what I mean and it's off base, I can recognize that.
 
Like when you saw that I said you were evil or bad? As you had said above?

That's not what I said. Just because you assume evil or hatred or whatever does not mean that is what the speaker intended--it's your label. And really I don't intend to go any re-quote everything you misquote, misrepresent, etc. 

Here we go again...

 
So if you have a specific beef, quote me.
 
 
I could easily. Already you maligned me saying you have heard me say Buddhist things against some lama's wishes.  That's pure bull. 

That's not what I said. I have heard you talk about various esoteric Buddhist topics, but honestly from my perspective you seem to miss the points much of the time--and I know lamas have told you this as well. is what I said.

I'm not going to get into some oppositional-defiant push-pull game. Try it on someone else.

Constantly? How would you know? Could you quote me?
 
---Sure like when you assumed that I assumed you were evil or bad in the above comment. 

sigh> see above quote. Not what I said.

/game-playing>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)






That's not what I said. 
"I have heard you talk "about" various esoteric Buddhist topics, but honestly 
from my perspective you seem to miss the points much of the time--and I know 
lamas have told you this as well." is what I said.
But this isn't so. What esoteric 
thing and what lama exactly?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 That's not what I said. I have heard you talk about various 
esoteric Buddhist topics, but honestly from my perspective you seem to 
miss the points much of the time--and I know lamas have told you this 
as well. is what I said.
 
 But this isn't so. What esoteric thing and what lama exactly?

So, are you guys in love or what?




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
   IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
   isn't.  
  
  They have their logic. 
  I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts 
back 
  about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
  I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
  attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what
  gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over 
time
  to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should 
try
  an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR
  question precisely (and concisely)
 
 Well, it's deteriorating despite (and also
 in many respects because of) the TMO's best
 efforts to maintain the purity--not within
 the TMO itself, but outside of it.
 
 Whether you think the purity of the teaching
 is important depends on whether you think the
 teaching is definitive, of course.
 
 (I'm referring here to the teaching about the
 nature and mechanics of consciousness, not to
 any of the subsidiary stuff, politics and
 Rajas and so on.)
 
   And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
  
  I think it's based on logic. see above.
 
 Seems to me the intense, emotional resistance
 to the measures for preserving the purity of
 the teaching may itself be based on fear, the
 fear of committing oneself (not to the TMO
 per se but to the teaching).
 
 It's one thing to disapprove of the various
 excesses of the movement control freaks that
 go way beyond the logic of it; it's quite
 another to tie oneself into knots about it
 and start comparing it to the Inquisition 
 and similar outrages.  That's just not a
 rational response. 

Exactly. Good point. It is always an emotional response from these 
guys based on fear and jealousyie. unreasonable.
OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:

If it's confession time I visited Krishnamurti in about 1984 
in
England, but he was older than Maharishi so its ok.
 
  TURQ B wrote: 
   I think, Off, that I'm beginning to get a handle on when you
   *think* you're being lighthearted and funny, and suspect
   you think that this is one of those times.  
  
  
   However, can you step back and look for a moment at the
   *language* you use here, and what it implies about what
   the TMO teaches and the mindset it creates in its long-time
   practitioners?
   
   Confession?  It's ok? 
 
 
 off world wrote: 
  It's tongue in cheek. 
 
  TURQ B wrote:
   
   IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
   isn't. 
  
 off world wrote: 
  They have their logic. 
  I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts 
back 
  about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
  I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
  attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what
  gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over 
time
  to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should 
try
  an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR
  question precisely (and concisely)
  OffWorld
  
 TURQ B wrote:  And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on 
fear.
   
  
 off world wrote: 
  I think it's based on logic. see above.
 
 So, off world, if you use your logic, how does the fact that 
Krishnamurti was OLD make it 
 okay that you saw another teacher? 


God almighty ! It was a friggin tongue in cheeck joke.

 Also, what made you want to go and see him?  Maybe the same 
reasons that other people 
 decide to go and see another teacher, too? 

No , maybe you jump to conclusions based on your own ways? 
1985. A friend of mine and my two sweet old landladies (ex TM'rs) 
wanted to go, so I decided to go with them. (I had read a couple of 
his books before I got into TM). I wasn't much into the lecture, but 
it was a fun day out on a sunny day in the countryside England. 
That's about it.
OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   Confession?  It's ok? 
  
  It's tongue in cheek. 
  
   IMO it is Ok even if Maharishi and the TMO feel that it
   isn't.  
  
  

OffWorld Question:
They have their logic. I think you need to answer the question I 
asked several posts back about keeping the purity of the teachiing. 
I have to ask myself this question: If there was little attempt to 
keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what gets 
interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over time to 
the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should try an 
honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR 
question precisely (and concisely)

  
   And it's all so unnecessary.  And so based on fear.
  
  I think it's based on logic. see above.
 
 But the logic is based on fear (the irrational, and taught-to-
 them fear that the eternal can be corrupted by the ephemeral)
 and ego (the quickly-learned belief that stopping this corruption
 is in our control and that we are important enough to have been
 entrusted with the task).
 
 Everything you are talking about here, Off, is *learned behavior*,
 not some eternal grand truth.  You were TAUGHT that the know-
 ledge of TM and of enlightenment was so fragile that it had to
 be protected with eternal vigilance from what could be inter-
 jected into it and what could happen to it over time.  You were
 TAUGHT that unethical acts are permissible when performing
 this protection.   You were TAUGHT to look the other way when
 these things happen, and never to complain when the people 
 who are protecting this oh-so-precious and oh-so-vulnerable
 knowledge demean it through their lies and actions.
 
 What if none of it is true, and the only thing you're protecting
 is an eternal technique which has never been lost and never 
 corrupted because it cannot possibly be?  And, of course, 
 an immensely profitible monopoly, and the self important egos
 of those who run it? 

It doesn't make sense. You are not looking deeply into the 
situation, and you didn't really answer the question.
Please answer as precisely as you can the question I posed above, 
then we can continue. 
Until then I assume you are avoiding it.
Please stick to the topic of the question.
Thanks.
OffWorld





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  Everything you are talking about here, Off, is *learned 
behavior*,
  not some eternal grand truth.  You were TAUGHT that the know-
  ledge of TM and of enlightenment was so fragile that it had to
  be protected with eternal vigilance from what could be inter-
  jected into it and what could happen to it over time.  You 
were
  TAUGHT that unethical acts are permissible when performing
  this protection.   You were TAUGHT to look the other way when
  these things happen, and never to complain when the people 
  who are protecting this oh-so-precious and oh-so-vulnerable
  knowledge demean it through their lies and actions.
 
 The trouble with this analysis is that it's
 all black-and-white, no shades of gray.
 
 Just for starters, reacting so violently against
 control of any kind is just as much learned
 behavior as the perception of the need for
 control.  Moreover, it is itself a need for
 control, in this case to control the attempts
 to control and protect oneself.  It's just as
 rigid, but in the opposite direction. 

Exactly . Good points.
I think only a bunch of loosers would be so upset about an 
organization that advocates absolute non-violence (stupid irrational 
unsubstantiated gossip not-withstanding). They should get a life, 
and complain about the violence being perpetrated by fundamentalists 
(christian and muslim etc), and stop complaining about non-violence 
being perpetrated by what they are calling fundamentalists. 

Its the violence or non-violence of a group that countsanyone 
complaining that a few people can't go to the dome is childish and 
laughable. If I want to smoke in a smoke free bar, I can't...thats 
life. If I want to swim nude in the public baths, I can't...thats 
life. Should I start waving my arms and shouting because my Pagan 
religion says I should be able to go nude anywhere I like to. No. 
Maharishi doesn't want other pactices in the Dome and that is his 
choice. People should get over it, otherwise I promise you, you will 
see me and my goat naked in the public pools soon !
OffWorld

 
 Then there's the difference between the kind of
 learned behavior that simply parrots what has
 been internalized unquestioningly, and the kind
 which involves rigorous examination before being
 adopted on the strength of one's own experience,
 observation, and analysis.
 
 And of course there's the difference between
 looking the other way in the face of unethical
 acts, and accepting the *principle* behind them
 while deploring unethical implementation.
 
  What if none of it is true, and the only thing 
you're protecting
  is an eternal technique which has never been lost and never 
  corrupted because it cannot possibly be?
 
 Sounds like you're advocating fear of being
 wrong.
 
 The fact that you might be wrong is simply
 no excuse [for not speaking out]: You might
 be right in your communication, and you might
 be wrong, but that doesn't matter. What does
 matter, as Kierkegaard so rudely reminded us,
 is that only by investing and speaking your
 vision with passion, can the truth, ONE WAY
 OR ANOTHER, finally penetrate the reluctance
 of the world.
 
 If you are right, OR IF YOU ARE WRONG, it is
 only your passion that will force EITHER to
 be discovered. It is your duty to promote that
 discovery--either way--and therefore it is
 your duty to speak your truth with whatever
 passion and courage you can find in your heart.
 
 --Ken Wilber
 
 [emphases added]




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
 They have their logic. 
 I think you need to answer the question I asked several posts back 
 about keeping the purity of the teachiing.
 I have to ask myself this question: If there was little
 attempt to keep the purity of the teaching by being careful what
 gets interjected and absorbed in to it, what would happen over time
 to the teaching of the knowledge. I think everyone here should try
 an honest open minded objective attempt to answer this PARTICULAR
 question precisely (and concisely)
 OffWorld
 
 -I think that attempting to answer you on point is an exercise 
in fallacy (because you're obviously a fucking lunatic), but here 
goes.
 
 A person cannot control anything. Just when you get your 
meditation center set up an earthquake knocks it down.  Just when 
you request the amount of money needed to cover the mere costs of 
the teachings someone objects and you take a loss. Just when you 
learn one set of mantras the guru creates a new set and forbids the 
old ones. Just when you initiated ten thousand meditators your 
priviliges for performing the ceremony are revoked. There is no 
purity of the teachings. Because that implies the ability to control 
them, which implies that all the chaotic and mind staggering 
possibilities for change can be limited to a set of rules or 
standards.  This is maya.  This questing to control. One who demands 
control against all odds is a Mara. 
 
 The only thing that can preserve a tradition is love, not rules, 
not institutions, not an army of soldiers with shoulder nukes. 
Love.  If people love TM and the TMO then it will remain. If they 
don't it will corrupt. Fini.  Has little to do with any specific 
element of the teaching exactly. 
 
 Same with America. Same with the Catholic Church. Same with 
relationships. Same with everything. Only love for it can preserve 
it. 

All we need is love huh?
Been tried before a million times. 
Unfortunately people are not stable in it, and therefore large 
groups of yogic flyers generating bliss consciousness for the world 
is the only way. Otherwise the next terrorist bomb will be in an 
American city, and it will be nuclear. So stop complaining. 
All we need is love, just ain't gonna cut it pal. 
OffWorld




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)





All we need is love huh?Been tried 
before a million times. Unfortunately people are not stable in it, and 
therefore large groups of yogic flyers generating bliss consciousness for 
the world is the only way. Otherwise the next terrorist bomb will be in an 
American city, and it will be nuclear. So stop complaining. "All we need 
is love", just ain't gonna cut it pal. OffWorldJust got off 
work huh? Why not finish that beer before replying. Relax a little. 
You crack me up. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 All we need is love huh?
 Been tried before a million times. 
 Unfortunately people are not stable in it, and therefore large 
 groups of yogic flyers generating bliss consciousness for the world 
 is the only way. Otherwise the next terrorist bomb will be in an 
 American city, and it will be nuclear. So stop complaining. 
 All we need is love, just ain't gonna cut it pal. 
 OffWorld
 
 
 Just got off work huh?  Why not finish that beer before 
replying.  Relax a little. You crack me up. 

At least I have job, unlike you , posting all day long. Get off your 
ass. Do something. Go help old ladies in an old folks home.
offWorld





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 No , maybe you jump to conclusions based on your own ways? 
 1985. A friend of mine and my two sweet old landladies (ex TM'rs) 
 wanted to go, so I decided to go with them. (I had read a couple of 
 his books before I got into TM). I wasn't much into the lecture, but 
 it was a fun day out on a sunny day in the countryside England. 
 That's about it.

Cool.

Now imagine that your entire ability to participate in TM
events had ended that day, simply because you went to 
see another teacher.  

That happened, to far too many people.

Unc






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  No , maybe you jump to conclusions based on your own ways? 
  1985. A friend of mine and my two sweet old landladies (ex 
TM'rs) 
  wanted to go, so I decided to go with them. (I had read a couple 
of 
  his books before I got into TM). I wasn't much into the lecture, 
but 
  it was a fun day out on a sunny day in the countryside England. 
  That's about it.
 
 Cool.
 
 Now imagine that your entire ability to participate in TM
 events had ended that day, simply because you went to 
 see another teacher.  
 
 That happened, to far too many people.
 
 Unc .

Well I'm afraid Krishnamurti was on another level than Amma and 
Pundiji, etc. He was a philosophernot an advocate of a 
technique. His books are about philosophy, not hugs, and lovey dovey 
goggle-eyed sit-ins. :-)
OffWorld




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread Robert Gimbel

--Well, like everything else, love has different values: love based in 
ego-has it's limitations; Love based in unboundedness is bliss.
So, I agree, increasing bliss will save the world, and bliss is the 
highest value of love.\
Anyway, what do you have against love?

- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  All we need is love huh?
 Been tried before a million times. 
 Unfortunately people are not stable in it, and therefore large 
 groups of yogic flyers generating bliss consciousness for the world 
 is the only way. Otherwise the next terrorist bomb will be in an 
 American city, and it will be nuclear. So stop complaining. 
 All we need is love, just ain't gonna cut it pal. 
 OffWorld
 
 
 Just got off work huh?  Why not finish that beer before 
replying.  Relax a little. You crack me up.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)

2005-07-21 Thread Rory Goff

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Moreover you're constantly putting on more makeup.
  
  Constantly? How would you know? Could you quote me?
  
  Maybe I was sitting here naked the whole time.
 
 Nothing personal, but if we ever get into a discussion
 I'm gonna stick with the mental image of you wearing
 makeup, rather than the one of you sitting there naked.  :-)

How about naked *with* makeup? 200% of life and all That... :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Honest answers (was comments on Gable's editorial)