Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
I wish I could help in any way possible... -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 30 November 2010 19:34 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: > This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the > way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. > > As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is > prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of > anyone, - and only takes into account their wants or desires to an > extent that they may generate more prophit. > > While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start > losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then > probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time. > > Btw, it is probable George himself may have had a different opinion, not > because I think anything particularly good of him, just because I've found > generally speaking that if you speak to someone who actually takes time, > trouble and pride in designing and creating things, they are much more open > ad receptive to change. > > I'm not saying all small developers are saints, - they
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
So. Where does the rebellion begin? Endor, hoth, America... and who will be the leader? tom -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 30 November 2010 20:22 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Smile. Too be quite honest that is a problem everywhere. There is some stereotype that somehow having a visual disability also comes with a lack of brains which is totally untrue. You all have heard my story, my common complaint, of going to dinner with my wife and the waitress asking my wife what I want to eat. If sighted people don't have the common sense to ask a blind person directly what he/she wants to eat as a normal human being with a brain then how can we ask companies to produce games when doubtless they suffer the same stereotypes and ignorance too. I think NFB, ACB, AFB, etc have failed us in this regard is they haven't seamed to effect the common perception that we are inteligent people with lives just like anyone else. Why do we have to be short changed and treated like we have a mental disfunction as well as a visual one? As far as age goes I know a number of people aunts, uncles, friends, in their late 50's and early 60's that love playing PC games, or at least some of them anyway. The thing is a lot of them need glasses or contacts and although right now their visual problems can be corrected their is going to be a day where they can and will probably need something like Windows Narrator or Windows Magnifier to read e-mail etc as they won't be able to see the fonts to well etc. That will likely effect their ability to play games too, and companies won't bother until they begin seeing proffits falling do to lakc of interest in access issues. That's the cold hard facts of the matter. On 11/30/10, dark wrote: > Yes that is true ellena, I was over exaggerating just a bit and so was > inaccurate. > > Actually I found the truth of this just yesterday when, while playing core > exiles I ran into a lady in her 60's flying around in her ship with the best > of them. > > Of course now, if she developes some sort of eye problem and is forced to > use a screen reader, she will find Ce quite playable, however this obviously > isn't the case for the vast majority of games. > > I think I tend to lose site of this sinse whenever I'd tried to do > accessible games promotion over here with any of the central charities like > the royal national insttitute for the blind, I get the response that %75 of > blind people are over 60 and thus gaming is "a minority interest" and > therefore not worth people's time. > > This is however quite typical of said charities anyway, who seem to > basically believe anything which they don't personally set up themselves > isn't worth their time! they are also rather stuck in the mold of thinking > anyone with a visual imparement also suffers from a distinct lack of brain! > > Stil, I think as with most cases none of the various large companies will > actually start taking notice until it affects their prophit margin. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Go you and your ideas! You have my whole-hearted backing on this thing! -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 30 November 2010 23:03 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Bryan, That's always possible, but I can think of cases were big name companies and publishers have went to court and lost. For example, one of the websites that hosts fan fiction stories was sued over it, and the publisher that filed the suit lost. The reason had to do with the fair use claus in the copyright law that says you can use a copyright or trademark for education, if it is free, or advertises a certain product or service, etc. A good lawyer, that represented the fan fiction website, managed to convince the judge that fan fiction represented a clear case of ffreedom of speech and that it was all according to the fair use claus in the copyright law. Which goes to show just because someone is a copyright holder of a certain product, service, or trademark doesn't mean they are all powerful. Another case in point is Civilization. Now, I think we all remember that game was massively huge in the mid 1990's. Not suprisingly someone came out with Freeciv, an open source clone, and the author has never legally been attacked over it. Big reason is the author released it as as educational, released it as free, and made it totally open source. Activision, who currently holds the copyrights for Civilization, don't legally have grounds to sue because Freeciv is protected by the fair use copyright laws. My point being if a person such as myself created a Star Wars game, released it as fan fiction, made it open source, etc it really weakens their case because I don't stand to proffit from my work. More over I could legally say I created this project as an educational example of how Lucas Arts could make one of their own games accessible etc. They could trty and swing the judge their way, but the onis is on them to prove how my freeware, open source, game has hurt the company. That certainly can't say they lost millions of sales tdo to it because sighted players wouldn't be interested in an audio only game, and they themselves haven't attempted to target the VI market so who are they kidding? On 11/30/10, Bryan Peterson wrote: > You could theoretically but suing someone is expensive. It's often not > worthwhile since even if you did get some financial award on your > counterclaim it might be less than the court costs. It would probably be > financial suicide to try to sue or countersue a big name company like > Nintendo or Sony, even if you had legal grounds to do so. They probably have > hundreds of top notch lawyers who would beat the bushes to make sure the > judge and jury saw their side and only their side of the argument. > We are the Knights who say...Ni! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
In fairness gamefaqs message boards are known to be one huge hole of idiots, game bashers and people who are down right dodgy. I myself gave up completely when I saw a 100 post topic on the Mega man aniversary collection page asking for roll hentai. For those who don't know, roll is the female robot who is Mega man's sister and Hentai is, - well lets just say Japanese adult anime (very! adult anime), and leave it at that. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft I remember that. And I was pretty sure that was going to happen. That's why I was so against this suit. You should've seen the comments about that article about the blind guy beating Ocarina of Time. Then when a blind person posted a comment they got all suspicious about why blind people didn't post until now. Some of them even doubted the guy's blindness because he was using a computer. It's one ting to be crious but quite another to be rude about it. I myself got some flack a few years back when I posted on the Gamefaqs message boards about being blind. Needless to say I don't post on those boards anymore... We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Thomas, Not segregation in particular, but I think we can safely say that the two are similar. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:33 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Hayden, If you are talking about segregation that is a thing of the past in the U.S. However, descrimination is a totally different story. Descrimination is, and probably always will be, the human way of things.It seams most people have some sort of pinheaded descrimination based on someone's sex, disability, race, religion, or nationality. With us though there are times companies can get away with descrimination simply because we don't have a large enough organization to fight for things like accessible video games or basic things like making companies like G.E. to produce talking microwaves for the general market. the organizations we do have such as NFB seam to pass right over such issues and they rarely if ever take up an issue or cause I think needs to be addressed. Perhaps if NFB, ACB, and AFB got together and seriously pushed for accessible vidio games for the XBox, Play Station, and Wii that might actually get those companies attention and bring them to the table at least. However, that's just dreaming because those organizations seam to not have any interest in taking up game accessibility as an important issue. However, that's not the only one where organizations like that have completely failed us. there are hundreds of devices from Track Phones to DVD Recorders that are totally inaccessible from an accessibility standpoint, and the NFB and friends sit by and do nothing, say nothing, and we are falling behind the technological revolution. There is frankly no excuse for companies not to add text to speech and other features to their phone, DVD Recorder, etc other than they wanted to cut costs somewhere, and we as customers of such devices are expendable. On 11/30/10, Hayden Presley wrote: > Hi, > It's funny. You hear all this about how segregation is a thing of the > past--but look at society today? Simply put, it's impossible to do away with > that kind of thing, unfortunately...if society can't go after one race, > they'll go after another. > > Best Regards, > Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Hayden, If you are talking about segregation that is a thing of the past in the U.S. However, descrimination is a totally different story. Descrimination is, and probably always will be, the human way of things.It seams most people have some sort of pinheaded descrimination based on someone's sex, disability, race, religion, or nationality. With us though there are times companies can get away with descrimination simply because we don't have a large enough organization to fight for things like accessible video games or basic things like making companies like G.E. to produce talking microwaves for the general market. the organizations we do have such as NFB seam to pass right over such issues and they rarely if ever take up an issue or cause I think needs to be addressed. Perhaps if NFB, ACB, and AFB got together and seriously pushed for accessible vidio games for the XBox, Play Station, and Wii that might actually get those companies attention and bring them to the table at least. However, that's just dreaming because those organizations seam to not have any interest in taking up game accessibility as an important issue. However, that's not the only one where organizations like that have completely failed us. there are hundreds of devices from Track Phones to DVD Recorders that are totally inaccessible from an accessibility standpoint, and the NFB and friends sit by and do nothing, say nothing, and we are falling behind the technological revolution. There is frankly no excuse for companies not to add text to speech and other features to their phone, DVD Recorder, etc other than they wanted to cut costs somewhere, and we as customers of such devices are expendable. On 11/30/10, Hayden Presley wrote: > Hi, > It's funny. You hear all this about how segregation is a thing of the > past--but look at society today? Simply put, it's impossible to do away with > that kind of thing, unfortunately...if society can't go after one race, > they'll go after another. > > Best Regards, > Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
All depends on how you present yourself. I posted a topic on gamefaqs looking for someone to play me at Street Fighter, and got about half and half responses, though it seemed more positive than negative. But when I post about something else game-related that isn't related to blindness, people know who I am and treat me like anyone else. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi, It's funny. You hear all this about how segregation is a thing of the past--but look at society today? Simply put, it's impossible to do away with that kind of thing, unfortunately...if society can't go after one race, they'll go after another. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 2:04 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Eleanor, While I think your paper, Gaming on a Collision Course, was well written I think the big problem is that it is all too easy for an individual let alone a company to overlook problems/issues that they personally don't have. If someone isn't totally blind, or know someone who is totally blind, it is hard to convince that person it is in his/her interest to spend the time and money on researching universal acccess issues unless the stand to lose a substantial amount of money because of it. That's where that 25% or 26% of baby boomers will come in handy in a few years. If they do begin needing accessible games and make their voices heard or stop buying games completely it is going to make Nintendo and other companies take notice that they have a financial crisis coming. Until that day comes they are going to proceed as normal. To them your paper is only theoretical, and they aren't looking at the big picture. When it comes to the mainstream in general and access issues we are second class citizens I'm afraid. For example, when Game Spot did the access article on the games we can play the mainstream reaction was cool, neet, and so on. However, when Game Spot did an article on the case where that teenager sued one of the game companies, I want to say Sony, over accessibility the mainstream reaction was derogatory and down right hostile. "How can a blind guy play games? This case is stupid, because we all know blind people can't play vidio games. If they want games perhaps they should just hire someone to make them some games and leave us alone." I have to say reading comments like that were pretty disheartening in the extreme. It is not only the companies that treat us that way, but the mainstream public has a pretty dim view of people with disabilities and what we should have equal rights too as well. There is just something wrong with the public's attitude that says that we are some kind of second class citizen and shouldn't ask or demand anything from mainstream companies even though it is a form of outright descrimination on their part. On 11/30/10, Eleanor wrote: > Dark said -" > > While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start > losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then > probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time." > > > It won't take nearly that long. The 2010 ESA Essential Facts paper > indicated that 26%of the gamers are over 50 years old. Since over 40% > of people 65 and older report at least one disability(US census data), > and the baby boomers are sixty or older, there are a lot of gamers who > need accessibility options built in now and in the upcoming years. > Obviously this is not all blind and VI problems, but it should mean > something to mainstream developers that they are losing potential > customers, right now, not 20 or 30 years from now! And it will only > increase as the trend for older folk to play games continues! > > When you add the older gamers to the mix it becomes a little easier to > think about profitability if you add at least some accessibility > accommodations to your games. > > But our paper, Gaming on a Collision Course didn't manage to convince > many developers that they should go that route - some of the blog > comments were pretty derogatory! > > Eleanor Robinson > 7-128 Software > > > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you ha
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi, Lol...some how I doubt that's an old joke... Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:09 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft We;Well Tom, things haven't got quite that sue crazy over here, mostly because (as my brother frequently says), "don't mess with the judge!" sinse anyone bringing something that stupid as soon as it goes to trial would probably have the case dismissed and might even get done themselves for contempt of court. About the bloggers, it reminds me of the old surgion joke. Three doctors are discussing what sort of patients they like treating most. the first says he likes treating the military grunts, sinse all their organs are in strict! regimental order and never move out of line. The second claimes to like treating Japanese software developers, because all the organs are very small with lables, and there is always an instruction manual. The third surgion says the others are both wrong. The best people to treat are facebook users, sinse there are only two really major organs, the mouth and the anus, and they're both located in the same place ;D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Thomas, Hmmm... Wonder if Lucas themselves would see it the same way? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:03 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Bryan, That's always possible, but I can think of cases were big name companies and publishers have went to court and lost. For example, one of the websites that hosts fan fiction stories was sued over it, and the publisher that filed the suit lost. The reason had to do with the fair use claus in the copyright law that says you can use a copyright or trademark for education, if it is free, or advertises a certain product or service, etc. A good lawyer, that represented the fan fiction website, managed to convince the judge that fan fiction represented a clear case of ffreedom of speech and that it was all according to the fair use claus in the copyright law. Which goes to show just because someone is a copyright holder of a certain product, service, or trademark doesn't mean they are all powerful. Another case in point is Civilization. Now, I think we all remember that game was massively huge in the mid 1990's. Not suprisingly someone came out with Freeciv, an open source clone, and the author has never legally been attacked over it. Big reason is the author released it as as educational, released it as free, and made it totally open source. Activision, who currently holds the copyrights for Civilization, don't legally have grounds to sue because Freeciv is protected by the fair use copyright laws. My point being if a person such as myself created a Star Wars game, released it as fan fiction, made it open source, etc it really weakens their case because I don't stand to proffit from my work. More over I could legally say I created this project as an educational example of how Lucas Arts could make one of their own games accessible etc. They could trty and swing the judge their way, but the onis is on them to prove how my freeware, open source, game has hurt the company. That certainly can't say they lost millions of sales tdo to it because sighted players wouldn't be interested in an audio only game, and they themselves haven't attempted to target the VI market so who are they kidding? On 11/30/10, Bryan Peterson wrote: > You could theoretically but suing someone is expensive. It's often not > worthwhile since even if you did get some financial award on your > counterclaim it might be less than the court costs. It would probably be > financial suicide to try to sue or countersue a big name company like > Nintendo or Sony, even if you had legal grounds to do so. They probably have > hundreds of top notch lawyers who would beat the bushes to make sure the > judge and jury saw their side and only their side of the argument. > We are the Knights who say...Ni! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Bryan, That's always possible, but I can think of cases were big name companies and publishers have went to court and lost. For example, one of the websites that hosts fan fiction stories was sued over it, and the publisher that filed the suit lost. The reason had to do with the fair use claus in the copyright law that says you can use a copyright or trademark for education, if it is free, or advertises a certain product or service, etc. A good lawyer, that represented the fan fiction website, managed to convince the judge that fan fiction represented a clear case of ffreedom of speech and that it was all according to the fair use claus in the copyright law. Which goes to show just because someone is a copyright holder of a certain product, service, or trademark doesn't mean they are all powerful. Another case in point is Civilization. Now, I think we all remember that game was massively huge in the mid 1990's. Not suprisingly someone came out with Freeciv, an open source clone, and the author has never legally been attacked over it. Big reason is the author released it as as educational, released it as free, and made it totally open source. Activision, who currently holds the copyrights for Civilization, don't legally have grounds to sue because Freeciv is protected by the fair use copyright laws. My point being if a person such as myself created a Star Wars game, released it as fan fiction, made it open source, etc it really weakens their case because I don't stand to proffit from my work. More over I could legally say I created this project as an educational example of how Lucas Arts could make one of their own games accessible etc. They could trty and swing the judge their way, but the onis is on them to prove how my freeware, open source, game has hurt the company. That certainly can't say they lost millions of sales tdo to it because sighted players wouldn't be interested in an audio only game, and they themselves haven't attempted to target the VI market so who are they kidding? On 11/30/10, Bryan Peterson wrote: > You could theoretically but suing someone is expensive. It's often not > worthwhile since even if you did get some financial award on your > counterclaim it might be less than the court costs. It would probably be > financial suicide to try to sue or countersue a big name company like > Nintendo or Sony, even if you had legal grounds to do so. They probably have > hundreds of top notch lawyers who would beat the bushes to make sure the > judge and jury saw their side and only their side of the argument. > We are the Knights who say...Ni! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Dark, Yes, I think suing Sony falls into that type of catagory because it is making demands without the party offering anything substantial in return. If we expect Sony, Nintendo, E.A. Games, or anyone else to listen to us we need to do our part too. We need to research the issue and first find out if what we want is technically and financially possible, and then present our case to them in a reasonable manner. We'll get further if we actually have a researched case with technical examples rather than suing with no real idea how our demands can or should be implemented, because their argument is going to be no it isn't possible for reason x. Therefore we have to be able to convince them otherwise. Which is the problem with the Sony case. The person who sued them made demands that access features be implemented, but from what I can tell from the public records he and his lawyer hhaven't got a clue how such features could or shold be added to their existing titles. It sets a bad president because a company isn't going to respond positively to that kind of case unless you have concrete proof that this or that can be done, and that isn't going to cost them a fortune in gold to do it. One of the things we need to do is come up with simple quick solutions they can implement right away. How about a targeting indecator that lets a blind player know if the weapon is lined up for a kill shot? What about having a double beep to indicate the top of a menu and a single beep for each menu selection? How about a few sound files that speaks the color of the health bar, and other graphical status messages? As I said not all the changes we would want or need have to be complicated. We just need to get those points to the people who count so they can implement them. Access doesn't mean big expensive rewrites or complicated changes to make certain games more or less accessible. Here in the U.S.A. the U.S. armed forces has a basic rule regarding the rules of engagement. Quite simply do not fire unless fired upon. This is a very good rule to follow in life as it keeps you out of trouble. When handling big fortune 500 companies like Sony and Nintendo it applies equally true. If we get together and file a class action lawsuit against Nintendo, Sony, Activision, Lucas Arts, and anyone else you want to add to the mix their p.r. people are going to try and make it look like we are making unreasonable demands. The press can go both ways with a case like that, and although it is a civil rights issue it will probably look like we are being too demanding, expecting handouts, or whatever.Some of us do have the attitude society owes something to us, and that will definitely get communicated to the public. Now, if I wrote a game like Jedi Knight, Super Marrio, Castlevania, Megaman, or some other high profile game and got sued over it that would be a different story. I'd probably get public sympathy, because I'm just an average blind Joe, minding my own business, and not harming the company and getting attacked. if I counter sued them I think public opinion would be on my side as the company would clearly be in the wrong for not creating accessible games in the first place, and then not being available to be contacted about access issues in the second. It is a totally different dinamic as far as I'm concerned. Of course, this is all theoretical, but I don't think those companies really want to sue a blind person for that fact. It would doubtless bring about a lot of bad p.r. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
I remember that. And I was pretty sure that was going to happen. That's why I was so against this suit. You should've seen the comments about that article about the blind guy beating Ocarina of Time. Then when a blind person posted a comment they got all suspicious about why blind people didn't post until now. Some of them even doubted the guy's blindness because he was using a computer. It's one ting to be crious but quite another to be rude about it. I myself got some flack a few years back when I posted on the Gamefaqs message boards about being blind. Needless to say I don't post on those boards anymore... We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of anyone, - and only takes into account their wants or desires to an extent that they may generate more prophit. While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start l
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
That's when you sue someone. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Shiny protector" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft What is a loset? - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft It means to sue someone back. If someone sues you and you file a lawsit against them it's a countersuit. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Shiny protector" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft What does countersued mean? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of anyone, -
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
I could imagine if Judge Judy was the presiding judge over such a case. You definitely don't mess with Judge Judy! We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft We;Well Tom, things haven't got quite that sue crazy over here, mostly because (as my brother frequently says), "don't mess with the judge!" sinse anyone bringing something that stupid as soon as it goes to trial would probably have the case dismissed and might even get done themselves for contempt of court. About the bloggers, it reminds me of the old surgion joke. Three doctors are discussing what sort of patients they like treating most. the first says he likes treating the military grunts, sinse all their organs are in strict! regimental order and never move out of line. The second claimes to like treating Japanese software developers, because all the organs are very small with lables, and there is always an instruction manual. The third surgion says the others are both wrong. The best people to treat are facebook users, sinse there are only two really major organs, the mouth and the anus, and they're both located in the same place ;D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
I've had some experiences like that Dark. In fact I'm rather seriously toying wit the idea of writing a book to try to make light of that sort of stuff, even touching on the games issue. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft I've actually been considdering this issue as part of my phd. I think to some extent it's due simply to people not recognizing that those with a visual imparement are, as you said yourself, people with their own lives. A few months ago, a new member of my light opera group was absolutely stunned because I contributed to a communal joke, and after that his atitude to me completely changed. You could almost here the gears click into place as he moved me from "weerd unknown blind man" catagory to "usual reasonable chap" catagory. These days I tend to actually ask people to think about things. If I'm out with a friend and get the "what does he want?" type response, I tend to ask why my friend would be likely to know, or answer myself. Usually though, sinse I'm actually the person who ends up talking to weighters etc this doesn't come up sinse they have no choice but to deal with me. It rather reminds me of a friend of mine who has a mental illness who repeatedly tells people "I'm crazy! - not stupid" Also though, there are indeed blind people who really don't help this idea by the way they interact with others. For instance in one book I read, a sociologist, who's husband was blind,decided to pose as a blind person, ie mock guide dog harnice her dog and wear dark glasses and wander about with her husband. The thing that shocked me though, was her atitude sinse she took no account of other's reactions or make any effort to behave reasonably. On one occasion for instance she related an episode where she and her husband went into a large electronics shop, walked past the busy counter to an unoccupied one further in, waited to be served, simply demanded what they wanted without a hello or by your leave, and then complained the sales assistant was unreasonable. There was no hello, no attempt to be personable, and above all, no recognition that they were asking the assistant to perform a service for them which would not usually be part of his job. They simply expected him to function as a utility then complained when he didn't. Yes, he "should!" help them access the stor contents, - but there was no attempt to treat him as a human being while doing so. In an ideal world, all packits in shops would be braille labled, but as it is it's necessary to interact with others, and such interactions must! at least involve social graces otherwise disabled people are just selfishly demanding things. To bring this back to access, I do wonder if the suing of sony fell into this catagory. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
You could theoretically but suing someone is expensive. It's often not worthwhile since even if you did get some financial award on your counterclaim it might be less than the court costs. It would probably be financial suicide to try to sue or countersue a big name company like Nintendo or Sony, even if you had legal grounds to do so. They probably have hundreds of top notch lawyers who would beat the bushes to make sure the judge and jury saw their side and only their side of the argument. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Shiny protector" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft So, does that mean that if they try to sue you, you could sue them back? Like in reverse order? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Muhammed, Counter sue means that if you are sued for something you file a lawsuit against the other party over some greavence you have with them. For example, Nintendo tries to sue me for creating an accessible version of Marrio I would have grounds to counter sue them for accessibility and civil rights violations as they had not provided the software in accessible format, nor were they available to be questioned about getting propper permission to do the title. Cheers! On 11/30/10, Shiny protector wrote: What does counter sue mean? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this co
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
A law sute is essentially the name for a legal grudge which goes to court. If I wanted to sue you I would file a lawsuit, and you would be said to have a lawsuit against you. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
The hereing thing has a biological answer. A nerv is like a light switch. it's either on or off, it can't be any stronger than it is. That being said if you pay attention to one particular sense you'll gain more info from it anyway, for instance I regularly had arguements in aesthetics (philosophy of art and sensation), about whether a sense of smell could represent an object or not. Most people argued that a sense of smell was only an incidental extra sense and not actually any use in discerning subtle qualities of objects. I disagreed muchly, being as smell is yet another thing I use frequently in navigation along with hereing, touch, and my remaining vision. There is for instance one road in Durham which I'm able to find because of the Sub way on the corner, and I can always find my bank because the shop next to it is a news agent and grossers and I can thus smell paper etc. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
What is a loset? - Original Message - From: "Bryan Peterson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft It means to sue someone back. If someone sues you and you file a lawsit against them it's a countersuit. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Shiny protector" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft What does countersued mean? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of anyone, - and only takes into account their wants or desires to an extent that they may generate more prophit. While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then probably not), I d
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
We;Well Tom, things haven't got quite that sue crazy over here, mostly because (as my brother frequently says), "don't mess with the judge!" sinse anyone bringing something that stupid as soon as it goes to trial would probably have the case dismissed and might even get done themselves for contempt of court. About the bloggers, it reminds me of the old surgion joke. Three doctors are discussing what sort of patients they like treating most. the first says he likes treating the military grunts, sinse all their organs are in strict! regimental order and never move out of line. The second claimes to like treating Japanese software developers, because all the organs are very small with lables, and there is always an instruction manual. The third surgion says the others are both wrong. The best people to treat are facebook users, sinse there are only two really major organs, the mouth and the anus, and they're both located in the same place ;D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
It means to sue someone back. If someone sues you and you file a lawsit against them it's a countersuit. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: "Shiny protector" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft What does countersued mean? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of anyone, - and only takes into account their wants or desires to an extent that they may generate more prophit. While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time. Btw, it is probable George himself may have had a different opinion, not because I think anything particularly good of him, just because I've found generally speaking
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
I've actually been considdering this issue as part of my phd. I think to some extent it's due simply to people not recognizing that those with a visual imparement are, as you said yourself, people with their own lives. A few months ago, a new member of my light opera group was absolutely stunned because I contributed to a communal joke, and after that his atitude to me completely changed. You could almost here the gears click into place as he moved me from "weerd unknown blind man" catagory to "usual reasonable chap" catagory. These days I tend to actually ask people to think about things. If I'm out with a friend and get the "what does he want?" type response, I tend to ask why my friend would be likely to know, or answer myself. Usually though, sinse I'm actually the person who ends up talking to weighters etc this doesn't come up sinse they have no choice but to deal with me. It rather reminds me of a friend of mine who has a mental illness who repeatedly tells people "I'm crazy! - not stupid" Also though, there are indeed blind people who really don't help this idea by the way they interact with others. For instance in one book I read, a sociologist, who's husband was blind,decided to pose as a blind person, ie mock guide dog harnice her dog and wear dark glasses and wander about with her husband. The thing that shocked me though, was her atitude sinse she took no account of other's reactions or make any effort to behave reasonably. On one occasion for instance she related an episode where she and her husband went into a large electronics shop, walked past the busy counter to an unoccupied one further in, waited to be served, simply demanded what they wanted without a hello or by your leave, and then complained the sales assistant was unreasonable. There was no hello, no attempt to be personable, and above all, no recognition that they were asking the assistant to perform a service for them which would not usually be part of his job. They simply expected him to function as a utility then complained when he didn't. Yes, he "should!" help them access the stor contents, - but there was no attempt to treat him as a human being while doing so. In an ideal world, all packits in shops would be braille labled, but as it is it's necessary to interact with others, and such interactions must! at least involve social graces otherwise disabled people are just selfishly demanding things. To bring this back to access, I do wonder if the suing of sony fell into this catagory. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
So, does that mean that if they try to sue you, you could sue them back? Like in reverse order? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Muhammed, Counter sue means that if you are sued for something you file a lawsuit against the other party over some greavence you have with them. For example, Nintendo tries to sue me for creating an accessible version of Marrio I would have grounds to counter sue them for accessibility and civil rights violations as they had not provided the software in accessible format, nor were they available to be questioned about getting propper permission to do the title. Cheers! On 11/30/10, Shiny protector wrote: What does counter sue mean? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of anyone, - and only takes into accoun
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Its the same with me here at school. Some people ask the teacher a question in stead of asking me, and my LSA says, ask him. Honestly, I don't have a complaint about it, but it just seems weird. I think the main problem's with us blind people is we haven't actually shown are true colours. For an example, sited people invent this nonsense thing that blind people could here much more better than sited people, etc, etc. But this is just a lode of crap. In my honest opinion, I think that it depends on how they were made, and on their genetics. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:21 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Smile. Too be quite honest that is a problem everywhere. There is some stereotype that somehow having a visual disability also comes with a lack of brains which is totally untrue. You all have heard my story, my common complaint, of going to dinner with my wife and the waitress asking my wife what I want to eat. If sighted people don't have the common sense to ask a blind person directly what he/she wants to eat as a normal human being with a brain then how can we ask companies to produce games when doubtless they suffer the same stereotypes and ignorance too. I think NFB, ACB, AFB, etc have failed us in this regard is they haven't seamed to effect the common perception that we are inteligent people with lives just like anyone else. Why do we have to be short changed and treated like we have a mental disfunction as well as a visual one? As far as age goes I know a number of people aunts, uncles, friends, in their late 50's and early 60's that love playing PC games, or at least some of them anyway. The thing is a lot of them need glasses or contacts and although right now their visual problems can be corrected their is going to be a day where they can and will probably need something like Windows Narrator or Windows Magnifier to read e-mail etc as they won't be able to see the fonts to well etc. That will likely effect their ability to play games too, and companies won't bother until they begin seeing proffits falling do to lakc of interest in access issues. That's the cold hard facts of the matter. On 11/30/10, dark wrote: Yes that is true ellena, I was over exaggerating just a bit and so was inaccurate. Actually I found the truth of this just yesterday when, while playing core exiles I ran into a lady in her 60's flying around in her ship with the best of them. Of course now, if she developes some sort of eye problem and is forced to use a screen reader, she will find Ce quite playable, however this obviously isn't the case for the vast majority of games. I think I tend to lose site of this sinse whenever I'd tried to do accessible games promotion over here with any of the central charities like the royal national insttitute for the blind, I get the response that %75 of blind people are over 60 and thus gaming is "a minority interest" and therefore not worth people's time. This is however quite typical of said charities anyway, who seem to basically believe anything which they don't personally set up themselves isn't worth their time! they are also rather stuck in the mold of thinking anyone with a visual imparement also suffers from a distinct lack of brain! Stil, I think as with most cases none of the various large companies will actually start taking notice until it affects their prophit margin. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Muhammed, Counter sue means that if you are sued for something you file a lawsuit against the other party over some greavence you have with them. For example, Nintendo tries to sue me for creating an accessible version of Marrio I would have grounds to counter sue them for accessibility and civil rights violations as they had not provided the software in accessible format, nor were they available to be questioned about getting propper permission to do the title. Cheers! On 11/30/10, Shiny protector wrote: > What does counter sue mean? > - Original Message - > From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:34 PM > Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft > > >> Hi Dark, >> >> Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and >> listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm >> very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to >> play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and >> write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all >> Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only >> thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So >> bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and >> getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? >> >> I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a >> case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a >> simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can >> turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. >> It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media >> attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights >> issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't >> want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. >> >> "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of >> Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow >> blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the >> games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he >> repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got >> stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil >> rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." >> >> Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would >> help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has >> them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like >> jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind >> of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the >> recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the >> opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards >> the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole >> situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, >> that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games >> or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, >> but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be >> addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow >> third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for >> limited distribution for blind gamers. >> >> >> Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with >> these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the >> issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the >> only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to >> hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is >> coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer >> generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is >> reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari >> 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent >> years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman >> or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large >> majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the >> wealth? >> >> >> >> Cheers! >> >> >> On 11/30/10, dark wrote: >>> This is again why I am c
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Dark, Yeah, I agree. I'm not exactly a sue crazy idiot either. In fact, I've thought several high profile cases here in the USA were just down right stupid such as the case where the woman sued McDonald's for a million bucks after she put her hot coffee between her legs and burned herself down their. Its like, "Hello! How stupid can you be?" Cases like that really prove what pinheads people can be, and that lawyers will sue for anything regardless how stupid the case. However, with the person who sued Sony he had good reason to sue, but had no real idea how to get what he was asking for. At least if I were suing them I have the technical skills to explain how certain access issues can be overcome, and give them clear direction. So in this case I have something to offer them in return if they are willing to listen. As for the bloggers I know the type you speak of. Loud mouthed idiots that don't know their rear from a hole in the ground. They just like shooting off their mouths to have something to say. The posters who commented on the Game Spot article mentioned seamed to me to be immature pinheads that were concerned that Sony would charge more for their games, take longer to create games, etc if they were forced into providing accessibility too.Plus they thought it was unnecessary, because blind people aren't suppose to have a brain or be able to do anything for ourselves anyway. That was the general jist of it, and it is clear that those kind of people don't have a brain themselves. Most people who do have a brain are least willing to listen to our side of things, and will make changes once they are made aware of the issue or issues involved. Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > I generally don't like the hole suing culture that has grown up recently, in > fact there have recently been several comments from the house of lords over > here demanding some changes in law to get rid of the "if there's blame > there's a claime" mentality (with my brother being a criminal lawyer, I do > tend to here about such things). > > All that being said, I very much take your point, however the case of the > blind chap suing sony has set a rather nasty pressident. > > In fact I personally didn't much like this hole case, sinse the chap involve > had no ideas about what would be necessary to make existing games accessible > and simply demanded they "should be" which really won't get anyone anywhere. > > Your idea of audio marrio and then taking nintendo to court when they > complain seems much more logical, sinse it would only involve use of names > and/or sounds from games, rather than demanding an actual change in law. > > However I do shudder to think of those legal costs. > > as regards blog comments etc, I'd ignore them, simply because the people who > tend to write comments on blogs in such ways are usually loud mouthed idiots > with nothing better to do. > > After talking to indi gamers and developers for quite a long time, I can say > the aatitude of the majority of people who actually have the ability to > think seems far less negative. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
How large is the company? As I said, I generally think indepedent games companies are far more receptive to this sort of thing, and that's where most accessible games will come from. Niels bauer is a very good example, as indeed is 7-128. Also, what system does this brazillian company develope for? Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: "Mauricio Almeida" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft i have to say one thing about this: blind games brasil just closed a partnership to help a brazilian mainstream company to develop their games in an accessible way. so indeed, we are making progress down here in brasil. mauricio -Mensagem original- De: Thomas Ward Para: Gamers Discussion list Data: Terça, 30 de Novembro de 2010 15:03 Assunto: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Eleanor, While I think your paper, Gaming on a Collision Course, was well written I think the big problem is that it is all too easy for an individual let alone a company to overlook problems/issues that they personally don't have. If someone isn't totally blind, or know someone who is totally blind, it is hard to convince that person it is in his/her interest to spend the time and money on researching universal acccess issues unless the stand to lose a substantial amount of money because of it. That's where that 25% or 26% of baby boomers will come in handy in a few years. If they do begin needing accessible games and make their voices heard or stop buying games completely it is going to make Nintendo and other companies take notice that they have a financial crisis coming. Until that day comes they are going to proceed as normal. To them your paper is only theoretical, and they aren't looking at the big picture. When it comes to the mainstream in general and access issues we are second class citizens I'm afraid. For example, when Game Spot did the access article on the games we can play the mainstream reaction was cool, neet, and so on. However, when Game Spot did an article on the case where that teenager sued one of the game companies, I want to say Sony, over accessibility the mainstream reaction was derogatory and down right hostile. "How can a blind guy play games? This case is stupid, because we all know blind people can't play vidio games. If they want games perhaps they should just hire someone to make them some games and leave us alone." I have to say reading comments like that were pretty disheartening in the extreme. It is not only the companies that treat us that way, but the mainstream public has a pretty dim view of people with disabilities and what we should have equal rights too as well. There is just something wrong with the public's attitude that says that we are some kind of second class citizen and shouldn't ask or demand anything from mainstream companies even though it is a form of outright descrimination on their part. On 11/30/10, Eleanor wrote: Dark said -" While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time." It won't take nearly that long. The 2010 ESA Essential Facts paper indicated that 26%of the gamers are over 50 years old. Since over 40% of people 65 and older report at least one disability(US census data), and the baby boomers are sixty or older, there are a lot of gamers who need accessibility options built in now and in the upcoming years. Obviously this is not all blind and VI problems, but it should mean something to mainstream developers that they are losing potential customers, right now, not 20 or 30 years from now! And it will only increase as the trend for older folk to play games continues! When you add the older gamers to the mix it becomes a little easier to think about profitability if you add at least some accessibility accommodations to your games. But our paper, Gaming on a Collision Course didn't manage to convince many developers that they should go that route - some of the blog comments were pretty derogatory! Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
[Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Dark, Smile. Too be quite honest that is a problem everywhere. There is some stereotype that somehow having a visual disability also comes with a lack of brains which is totally untrue. You all have heard my story, my common complaint, of going to dinner with my wife and the waitress asking my wife what I want to eat. If sighted people don't have the common sense to ask a blind person directly what he/she wants to eat as a normal human being with a brain then how can we ask companies to produce games when doubtless they suffer the same stereotypes and ignorance too. I think NFB, ACB, AFB, etc have failed us in this regard is they haven't seamed to effect the common perception that we are inteligent people with lives just like anyone else. Why do we have to be short changed and treated like we have a mental disfunction as well as a visual one? As far as age goes I know a number of people aunts, uncles, friends, in their late 50's and early 60's that love playing PC games, or at least some of them anyway. The thing is a lot of them need glasses or contacts and although right now their visual problems can be corrected their is going to be a day where they can and will probably need something like Windows Narrator or Windows Magnifier to read e-mail etc as they won't be able to see the fonts to well etc. That will likely effect their ability to play games too, and companies won't bother until they begin seeing proffits falling do to lakc of interest in access issues. That's the cold hard facts of the matter. On 11/30/10, dark wrote: > Yes that is true ellena, I was over exaggerating just a bit and so was > inaccurate. > > Actually I found the truth of this just yesterday when, while playing core > exiles I ran into a lady in her 60's flying around in her ship with the best > of them. > > Of course now, if she developes some sort of eye problem and is forced to > use a screen reader, she will find Ce quite playable, however this obviously > isn't the case for the vast majority of games. > > I think I tend to lose site of this sinse whenever I'd tried to do > accessible games promotion over here with any of the central charities like > the royal national insttitute for the blind, I get the response that %75 of > blind people are over 60 and thus gaming is "a minority interest" and > therefore not worth people's time. > > This is however quite typical of said charities anyway, who seem to > basically believe anything which they don't personally set up themselves > isn't worth their time! they are also rather stuck in the mold of thinking > anyone with a visual imparement also suffers from a distinct lack of brain! > > Stil, I think as with most cases none of the various large companies will > actually start taking notice until it affects their prophit margin. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
In where? --- Shepherds are the best beasts! - Original Message - From: "Mauricio Almeida" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft i have to say one thing about this: blind games brasil just closed a partnership to help a brazilian mainstream company to develop their games in an accessible way. so indeed, we are making progress down here in brasil. mauricio -Mensagem original- De: Thomas Ward Para: Gamers Discussion list Data: Terça, 30 de Novembro de 2010 15:03 Assunto: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Eleanor, While I think your paper, Gaming on a Collision Course, was well written I think the big problem is that it is all too easy for an individual let alone a company to overlook problems/issues that they personally don't have. If someone isn't totally blind, or know someone who is totally blind, it is hard to convince that person it is in his/her interest to spend the time and money on researching universal acccess issues unless the stand to lose a substantial amount of money because of it. That's where that 25% or 26% of baby boomers will come in handy in a few years. If they do begin needing accessible games and make their voices heard or stop buying games completely it is going to make Nintendo and other companies take notice that they have a financial crisis coming. Until that day comes they are going to proceed as normal. To them your paper is only theoretical, and they aren't looking at the big picture. When it comes to the mainstream in general and access issues we are second class citizens I'm afraid. For example, when Game Spot did the access article on the games we can play the mainstream reaction was cool, neet, and so on. However, when Game Spot did an article on the case where that teenager sued one of the game companies, I want to say Sony, over accessibility the mainstream reaction was derogatory and down right hostile. "How can a blind guy play games? This case is stupid, because we all know blind people can't play vidio games. If they want games perhaps they should just hire someone to make them some games and leave us alone." I have to say reading comments like that were pretty disheartening in the extreme. It is not only the companies that treat us that way, but the mainstream public has a pretty dim view of people with disabilities and what we should have equal rights too as well. There is just something wrong with the public's attitude that says that we are some kind of second class citizen and shouldn't ask or demand anything from mainstream companies even though it is a form of outright descrimination on their part. On 11/30/10, Eleanor wrote: Dark said -" While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time." It won't take nearly that long. The 2010 ESA Essential Facts paper indicated that 26%of the gamers are over 50 years old. Since over 40% of people 65 and older report at least one disability(US census data), and the baby boomers are sixty or older, there are a lot of gamers who need accessibility options built in now and in the upcoming years. Obviously this is not all blind and VI problems, but it should mean something to mainstream developers that they are losing potential customers, right now, not 20 or 30 years from now! And it will only increase as the trend for older folk to play games continues! When you add the older gamers to the mix it becomes a little easier to think about profitability if you add at least some accessibility accommodations to your games. But our paper, Gaming on a Collision Course didn't manage to convince many developers that they should go that route - some of the blog comments were pretty derogatory! Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
i have to say one thing about this: blind games brasil just closed a partnership to help a brazilian mainstream company to develop their games in an accessible way. so indeed, we are making progress down here in brasil. mauricio -Mensagem original- De: Thomas Ward Para: Gamers Discussion list Data: Terça, 30 de Novembro de 2010 15:03 Assunto: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Eleanor, While I think your paper, Gaming on a Collision Course, was well written I think the big problem is that it is all too easy for an individual let alone a company to overlook problems/issues that they personally don't have. If someone isn't totally blind, or know someone who is totally blind, it is hard to convince that person it is in his/her interest to spend the time and money on researching universal acccess issues unless the stand to lose a substantial amount of money because of it. That's where that 25% or 26% of baby boomers will come in handy in a few years. If they do begin needing accessible games and make their voices heard or stop buying games completely it is going to make Nintendo and other companies take notice that they have a financial crisis coming. Until that day comes they are going to proceed as normal. To them your paper is only theoretical, and they aren't looking at the big picture. When it comes to the mainstream in general and access issues we are second class citizens I'm afraid. For example, when Game Spot did the access article on the games we can play the mainstream reaction was cool, neet, and so on. However, when Game Spot did an article on the case where that teenager sued one of the game companies, I want to say Sony, over accessibility the mainstream reaction was derogatory and down right hostile. "How can a blind guy play games? This case is stupid, because we all know blind people can't play vidio games. If they want games perhaps they should just hire someone to make them some games and leave us alone." I have to say reading comments like that were pretty disheartening in the extreme. It is not only the companies that treat us that way, but the mainstream public has a pretty dim view of people with disabilities and what we should have equal rights too as well. There is just something wrong with the public's attitude that says that we are some kind of second class citizen and shouldn't ask or demand anything from mainstream companies even though it is a form of outright descrimination on their part. On 11/30/10, Eleanor wrote: > Dark said -" > > While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start > losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then > probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time." > > > It won't take nearly that long. The 2010 ESA Essential Facts paper > indicated that 26%of the gamers are over 50 years old. Since over 40% > of people 65 and older report at least one disability(US census data), > and the baby boomers are sixty or older, there are a lot of gamers who > need accessibility options built in now and in the upcoming years. > Obviously this is not all blind and VI problems, but it should mean > something to mainstream developers that they are losing potential > customers, right now, not 20 or 30 years from now! And it will only > increase as the trend for older folk to play games continues! > > When you add the older gamers to the mix it becomes a little easier to > think about profitability if you add at least some accessibility > accommodations to your games. > > But our paper, Gaming on a Collision Course didn't manage to convince > many developers that they should go that route - some of the blog > comments were pretty derogatory! > > Eleanor Robinson > 7-128 Software > > > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing li
[Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Eleanor, While I think your paper, Gaming on a Collision Course, was well written I think the big problem is that it is all too easy for an individual let alone a company to overlook problems/issues that they personally don't have. If someone isn't totally blind, or know someone who is totally blind, it is hard to convince that person it is in his/her interest to spend the time and money on researching universal acccess issues unless the stand to lose a substantial amount of money because of it. That's where that 25% or 26% of baby boomers will come in handy in a few years. If they do begin needing accessible games and make their voices heard or stop buying games completely it is going to make Nintendo and other companies take notice that they have a financial crisis coming. Until that day comes they are going to proceed as normal. To them your paper is only theoretical, and they aren't looking at the big picture. When it comes to the mainstream in general and access issues we are second class citizens I'm afraid. For example, when Game Spot did the access article on the games we can play the mainstream reaction was cool, neet, and so on. However, when Game Spot did an article on the case where that teenager sued one of the game companies, I want to say Sony, over accessibility the mainstream reaction was derogatory and down right hostile. "How can a blind guy play games? This case is stupid, because we all know blind people can't play vidio games. If they want games perhaps they should just hire someone to make them some games and leave us alone." I have to say reading comments like that were pretty disheartening in the extreme. It is not only the companies that treat us that way, but the mainstream public has a pretty dim view of people with disabilities and what we should have equal rights too as well. There is just something wrong with the public's attitude that says that we are some kind of second class citizen and shouldn't ask or demand anything from mainstream companies even though it is a form of outright descrimination on their part. On 11/30/10, Eleanor wrote: > Dark said -" > > While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start > losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then > probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time." > > > It won't take nearly that long. The 2010 ESA Essential Facts paper > indicated that 26%of the gamers are over 50 years old. Since over 40% > of people 65 and older report at least one disability(US census data), > and the baby boomers are sixty or older, there are a lot of gamers who > need accessibility options built in now and in the upcoming years. > Obviously this is not all blind and VI problems, but it should mean > something to mainstream developers that they are losing potential > customers, right now, not 20 or 30 years from now! And it will only > increase as the trend for older folk to play games continues! > > When you add the older gamers to the mix it becomes a little easier to > think about profitability if you add at least some accessibility > accommodations to your games. > > But our paper, Gaming on a Collision Course didn't manage to convince > many developers that they should go that route - some of the blog > comments were pretty derogatory! > > Eleanor Robinson > 7-128 Software > > > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Tom. I generally don't like the hole suing culture that has grown up recently, in fact there have recently been several comments from the house of lords over here demanding some changes in law to get rid of the "if there's blame there's a claime" mentality (with my brother being a criminal lawyer, I do tend to here about such things). All that being said, I very much take your point, however the case of the blind chap suing sony has set a rather nasty pressident. In fact I personally didn't much like this hole case, sinse the chap involve had no ideas about what would be necessary to make existing games accessible and simply demanded they "should be" which really won't get anyone anywhere. Your idea of audio marrio and then taking nintendo to court when they complain seems much more logical, sinse it would only involve use of names and/or sounds from games, rather than demanding an actual change in law. However I do shudder to think of those legal costs. as regards blog comments etc, I'd ignore them, simply because the people who tend to write comments on blogs in such ways are usually loud mouthed idiots with nothing better to do. After talking to indi gamers and developers for quite a long time, I can say the aatitude of the majority of people who actually have the ability to think seems far less negative. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
What does countersued mean? - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of anyone, - and only takes into account their wants or desires to an extent that they may generate more prophit. While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time. Btw, it is probable George himself may have had a different opinion, not because I think anything particularly good of him, just because I've found generally speaking that if you speak to someone who actually takes time, trouble and pride in designing and creating things, they are much more open ad receptive to change. I'm not saying all small developers are saints, - they aren't, and I've certainly had my share of people telling me to bugger off when I suggest access changes, but I would say
[Audyssey] Mainstream Access was Bavisoft
Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. To be honest I'm just about fed up with talking to and listening to mainstream game companies for that reason. Although, I'm very aware of copyright laws I'm pretty much ready to say if I want to play Super Mario Brothers, a Star Wars game, etc just go ahead and write the thing and say to heck with copyright laws. After all Nintendo, Lucas Arts, won't pay attention to us now, and the only thing that actually gets their attention is copyright infringement. So bring it on. What's the wworst they can do besides fining me and getting a judge to make me stop production of said game/games? I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be too willing to drag such a case through the courts. Yeah, on the surface it might seam like a simple case of copyright infringement, but if they do that to me I can turn around and counter sue the company over civil rights violations. It is the kind of explosive case that would get plenty of media attention, negative publicity for them, and since it is a civil rights issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court. Most companies don't want to bring that kind of negative media attention upon themselves. "Today, Nintendo sued a blind developer for creating free clones of Nintendo's classic arcade games such as Mario and Megaman for fellow blind PC gamers. According to Mr. Ward he wrote the games because the games are currently not accessible in a blind friendly format, and he repeatedly tried to contact the company over access issues but got stone walled. He says he plans to counter sue Nintendo over civil rights violations, and take it to the Supreme Court if necessary." Great. I'm not sure such a news paper article or new broadcast would help the company's image. Its that kind of negative publicity that has them wanting to cover their butts, because it will make them look like jurks and smear the company's name. Although, I'm not sure that kind of negative publicity would effect most gamers though. I remember the recent court case where a blind kid sued a major game company and the opinions on Game Spot, Game Facts, etc were pretty negative towards the blind guy. They were in fact downright hostile about the whole situation as they felt that blind people don't need to play games, that we shouldn't demand access, and we should go make our own games or something. I have no idea if the general public shares this view, but it is really a civil rights issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Either they make the gmaes accessible or the allow third-paryt developers like myself to create accessible versions for limited distribution for blind gamers. Thing is I'm all for a diplomatic solution. I'd love to sit down with these guys and talk access and help them find ways to resolve the issue. however, it seams like that solution has failed, and that the only thing these companies will listen to is money or being ssued to hell and back over it. Fortunately, for me I know a major crisis is coming that will kick them in their complacency. The baby boomer generation that holds a huge amount of wealth in this country is reaching retirement age, and a lot of them started out with the Atari 2600 and graduated to game systems like the Nintendo Wii in recent years. What is Nintendo going to say in 10 years when a 70 year oldman or woman can no longer play that Wii and they happen to be a large majority of the citizens on planet earth with a large portion of the wealth? Cheers! On 11/30/10, dark wrote: > This is again why I am convinced that smaller, indi games companies are the > way forward as far as game access goes rather than Lucas arts or similar. > > As Karl marx himself said 150 years ago, the overriding principle here is > prophit, and prophit isn't a thing which pays any attention to the good of > anyone, - and only takes into account their wants or desires to an > extent that they may generate more prophit. > > While it's possible that, if in 20 or 30 or so years when gamers start > losing their vision the major companies will take notice (and even then > probably not), I doubt very much it'll happen in the mean time. > > Btw, it is probable George himself may have had a different opinion, not > because I think anything particularly good of him, just because I've found > generally speaking that if you speak to someone who actually takes time, > trouble and pride in designing and creating things, they are much more open > ad receptive to change. > > I'm not saying all small developers are saints, - they aren't, and I've > certainly had my share of people telling me to bugger off when I suggest > access changes, but I would say the majority are at least interested, and a > good part of the interested ones will actually do something useful. > > Witness the recent changes in Core exiles interface which resulted just from > a reasonable conversation with the developer and a bit of give and take. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ G
