Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/25/2010 12:45 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote: On 10/25/2010 05:19 PM, Patrick Horgan wrote: 1) You press TAB 2) The toolbox and dialogs disappear - good. 3) The nice big drawing surface that you sized just how you wanted it (on purpose!) resizes small and to one corner of the screen. I thought I fixed this long ago and I can't reproduce it. What version of GIMP are you using? I was using one from ubuntu cause long ago my git pull got oddly out of sync and wouldn't pull any more. I just threw away my copy of the source, re-based from the trunk and rebuilt and voila I have no more complaint about this. You are a gem among men. Now if it would just remember single window mode between sessions! It even remembers for me whether I was displaying the toolbox and dialogs, but when I close GIMP, it slips out of single window mode then exits, and comes back up next time in multi-window mode. I've found the window still resizes unexpectedly and disconcertingly when zooming in or out on the image (in single window or multi-window) and when closing an image or tab. Also when opening an image smaller than the drawing surface it is first displayed partially off the top left forcing scrolling to see the whole thing, even though the image would fit in the middle of the drawing surface without any scrolling required. Patrick ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Tomek, I too was very upset about the menu but I'm not anymore because of the TAB key. With the new design, I can have all of my windows for art and just press TAB and the toolbox and the dialogs go away leaving free access to the art. When I need to click something in the toolbox or a layer dialog, I just hit TAB again and they're back and on top. Meanwhile I have free access to the menus all the time at the top of the drawing surface. Even more often, I don't even reach up for the menu because the right click menu has whatever I need without having to reach up to the top of the window. This works whether I'm using a mouse, my touchpad on my laptop, or have my Wacom tablet plugged in doing serious work. The workflow is now faster, easier and more intuitive. So, now I'm calmed down. The thing I was so mad about won me over. I hope it does for you to. Single window mode is wonderful too with a couple of caveats I warn about below. I use it now on Linux. The only difference is that the toolbox and dialogs are attached to the sides of the art. I still press TAB and make them go away now so I have the most free surface. There's still a fairly serious usability issue that comes in only when using single window mode, but they don't promise they have the usability all worked out yet in 2.7. Here's the problem. When you press TAB not only do the toolbox and dialogs go away, but it rudely resizes your drawing surface to the size of the image and moves the window so that whatever was under your cursor is no longer under it. I didn't ask for that, it's just something the programmer threw in as a sadistic effect. It combines in insidious ways with the use of autoraise. (Autoraise makes whatever window is under the cursor become active and raise above other windows when you pause over it for a short while.) If you're working on a small image like an icon or button for a web site, it strikes: 1) You press TAB 2) The toolbox and dialogs disappear - good. 3) The nice big drawing surface that you sized just how you wanted it (on purpose!) resizes small and to one corner of the screen. The image is suddenly no longer under your cursor! It not only resizes but moves! The bigger your screen and the smaller the image the more startling this is. (Maybe the top left stays where it was and all the rest moves up to it, I don't know or care, I just want it to not apparently resize, nor move. If that means they have to really move it over by the amount of the width of the vanishing toolbox, so what, it's a simple calculation. The drawing surface should appear to be the same size, and the image I'm working on in the same place, after the sides disappear. If they want to make it bigger to use the space that toolbox and dialogs freed up that's acceptable too, as long as the image stays in the same place under my cursor and the drawing surface at least the same size. Just don't go all tiny on me!) 4) Whatever other window you had behind GIMP (maybe a fullscreen web browser that you flip to when you need a break or to do some research) is now to your surprise under the cursor and autoraises and covers the drawing surface. There's actually time to move over and keep that from happening if you're not too surprised, but the window is now a tiny thing over in the top left! It's nowhere NEAR your cursor! When would THAT ever be your hearts desire? No! You would obviously want the same pixel that WAS under your cursor to STILL be under your cursor. It's MUCH worse than having to reach up for a menu. It's mean and intrusive. 5) Wail and gnash the teeth pulling out the hair and cursing the programmer. I don't have any idea why they decided the thing to do is to resize the drawing surface to the image size when hiding the toolbox and dialogs. They don't when you aren't using the single window mode, and there seems no reason for it. Probably just a brain fart. Hopefully they'll work that out before 2.8. The only other remaining issue I have is that GIMP forgets that you wanted single window mode each time you tuck it away. It's funny that I was so attached to the toolbar menu. When I first started to use GIMP I hated it. There was a menu on the drawing window and a menu on the toolbar. I had no idea which to use for what and it was just confusing. Eventually the bad interface became familiar and I knew where everything was and then when it was gone I was UPSET! lol. The one now is really better. best regards, Patrick ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Hello Patrick, Thank you for the Tab hint. I have tested it a bit more and well its pretty good I must admit - I have one window, I can spread windows/images across many desktops and the toolbars are following the windows. There is no toolbox I got used to, but I can minimize this no-window, hide other boxes with Tab and get the menu by right click, so this is pretty much toolbox-menu alike behavior except I have to click more - this is not a big issue -and I have my functionality back, a bit different way. For the new design the toolbox and toolbars could be hidden by default not to mislead old users - otherwise I automatically look for a menu in the toolbox, when no toolbox is visible I quickly find no-window menu. When the no-menu is the only window and its pretty small its almost like old toolbox ;-) As you can see for my technical drawings/edition the most important was the menu, not the toolbox itself - this is why I was so upset for removing it with no option to put it back... and some additional window only disturbed my work. When the functionality is there, well the rest can look totally different and I can change my habits to click somewhere else, as my input to the GIMP development haha ;-) I also have some remarks to the window focus issues that you experienced: - if you have focus problem - this may be caused by a window manager - I am using xfce4 and I have set those settings to make windows behave as expected in gimp: click to focus (instead focus follows mouse), give focus to new windows and most important raise windows that receive focus. - in the preferences / window management there is an option to activate focused image - this also may help you - I am not sure how this works on windows Also I have some improvement idea - there is an option to save windows position - this could also obey to the toolboxes and toolbars visibility, so after GIMP is restarted only the no-window is visible and no need to press Tab key. The window size is being remembered on my Unix box, so when I start GIMP and have only no-window and its almost like in the old GIMP, when both no-window is visible and the toolbox - this is a bit confusing to me. This could be made as an option - when user close application with toolbox/toolbars invisible - they are also hidden after program restart - or they are alsways visible on start (checbox maybe?). I think the dinosaurs can like this option ;-) Best regards, Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/25/2010 05:19 PM, Patrick Horgan wrote: 1) You press TAB 2) The toolbox and dialogs disappear - good. 3) The nice big drawing surface that you sized just how you wanted it (on purpose!) resizes small and to one corner of the screen. I thought I fixed this long ago and I can't reproduce it. What version of GIMP are you using? You might want to try to reproduce this is the latest nightly snapshot: ftp://gimptest.flamingtext.com/pub/nightly-tarballs/ (temporarily off-line at the moment) / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/25/2010 09:30 PM, Tomek CEDRO wrote: Also I have some improvement idea - there is an option to save windows position - this could also obey to the toolboxes and toolbars visibility, so after GIMP is restarted only the no-window is visible and no need to press Tab key. This already fixed in git, the 'Windows' image menu has a 'Hide Docks' check box menu item and its state is preserved across sessions. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/25/2010 09:30 PM, Tomek CEDRO wrote: Also I have some improvement idea - there is an option to save windows position - this could also obey to the toolboxes and toolbars visibility, so after GIMP is restarted only the no-window is visible and no need to press Tab key. This already fixed in git, the 'Windows' image menu has a 'Hide Docks' check box menu item and its state is preserved across sessions. Perfect! So it looks that you got another one on the dark side ;-) Besr regards, Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On Monday, October 25, 2010 22:45:16 Martin Nordholts wrote: On 10/25/2010 05:19 PM, Patrick Horgan wrote: 1) You press TAB 2) The toolbox and dialogs disappear - good. 3) The nice big drawing surface that you sized just how you wanted it (on purpose!) resizes small and to one corner of the screen. I thought I fixed this long ago and I can't reproduce it. What version of GIMP are you using? You might want to try to reproduce this is the latest nightly snapshot: ftp://gimptest.flamingtext.com/pub/nightly-tarballs/ This happened to me quite recently if I worked with maximized image window. It snaps out of maximize and back into any size it was before. It happens whenever I close an image or open one too. --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/25/10, Alexia Death wrote: This happened to me quite recently if I worked with maximized image window. It snaps out of maximize and back into any size it was before. It happens whenever I close an image or open one too. Or it takes you to the last opened tab in single-window mode after some actions like resizing. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/25/2010 12:50 PM, Tomek CEDRO wrote: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Martin Nordholtsense...@gmail.com wrote: This already fixed in git, the 'Windows' image menu has a 'Hide Docks' check box menu item and its state is preserved across sessions. Perfect! So it looks that you got another one on the dark side ;-) lol! GIMP just keeps getting better and better. Thank you guys! Now if the single window mode was just preserved across sessions! Patrick ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/25/2010 12:30 PM, Tomek CEDRO wrote: Hello Patrick, Thank you for the Tab hint. You're welcome. I have tested it a bit more and well its pretty good I must admit - I have one window, I can spread windows/images across many desktops and the toolbars are following the windows. That was what sold me as well. There is no toolbox I got used to, but I can minimize this no-window, hide other boxes with Tab and get the menu by right click, so this is pretty much toolbox-menu alike behavior except I have to click more - this is not a big issue -and I have my functionality back, a bit different way. For the new design the toolbox and toolbars could be hidden by default not to mislead old users - otherwise I automatically look for a menu in the toolbox, when no toolbox is visible I quickly find no-window menu. You can also use the drawing surface menu just like you did the toolbox menu. For me, it's just often easier to use the right click (context) menu because then I don't have to move the cursor. When the no-menu is the only window and its pretty small its almost like old toolbox ;-) As you can see for my technical drawings/edition the most important was the menu, not the toolbox itself - this is why I was so upset for removing it with no option to put it back... and some additional window only disturbed my work. I completely understand. It's a bit of a shock to the system. You get in years of habit and now what you did no longer works and for me at least, there was this fear that all the learning I'd done was wasted and I would have to learn a completely new paradigm. Luckily, it turned out not to be true. The things I was used to are still there mostly, and actually arranged in a more logical fashion. When the functionality is there, well the rest can look totally different and I can change my habits to click somewhere else, as my input to the GIMP development haha ;-) Yeah, it's easy to embrace actually, since it's really an improvement. The thing I hate the most is to have to take my hands off the keyboard when using a mainly keyboard app, or to move to some strange place to accomplish something when using a mostly gui app. Both stop the flow of work, and in that regard, the new interface is a huge improvement, though it took me awhile to admit it. I hate change. I also have some remarks to the window focus issues that you experienced: - if you have focus problem - this may be caused by a window manager - I am using xfce4 and I have set those settings to make windows behave as expected in gimp: click to focus (instead focus follows mouse), give focus to new windows and most important raise windows that receive focus. - in the preferences / window management there is an option to activate focused image - this also may help you - I am not sure how this works on windows Yes, I also don't know how it works on Windows, but I'm sure something similar is available. Oddly to many, on my Ubuntu box, I do focus follows mouse on purpose. I got in the habit on Solaris with X-Windows in the late 80s. As long as the delay is just the right length before the focus shifts it makes things flow marvelously for me. If the delay is too short it's completely unusable accidently shifting focus all the time, and if the delay is too long it's intrusive making me wait to shift focus. It saves me one click. I just have to hover over something and it raises and receives focus. It's not for all, and it works better with a larger screen so you can see bits and pieces, but I've come to love it. My complaint wasn't about the behavior, but about how the unexpected resizing of the drawing surface in GIMP interacted with it. Also I have some improvement idea - there is an option to save windows position - this could also obey to the toolboxes and toolbars visibility, so after GIMP is restarted only the no-window is visible and no need to press Tab key. The window size is being remembered on my Unix box, so when I start GIMP and have only no-window and its almost like in the old GIMP, when both no-window is visible and the toolbox - this is a bit confusing to me. This could be made as an option - when user close application with toolbox/toolbars invisible - they are also hidden after program restart - or they are alsways visible on start (checbox maybe?). I think the dinosaurs can like this option ;-) That's there already, although it still doesn't remember single window mode. Best regards, Tomek And best regards to you to Tomek, Patrick ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/25/2010 10:26 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 10/25/10, Alexia Death wrote: This happened to me quite recently if I worked with maximized image window. It snaps out of maximize and back into any size it was before. It happens whenever I close an image or open one too. Or it takes you to the last opened tab in single-window mode after some actions like resizing. I know positioning is broken for other use cases, like when creating a new image (and thus tab) in swm, but I can't reproduce it with Tab, including in a maximized image window. Anyway, I will make sure this is fixed when I finish the single-window mode implementation... / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Hello Alexandre, On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:58 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: Enforcing vision is what software development is all about :) You've been using GIMP for ten years after all, you were supposed to know that :) I can see software development as making it more usable and functional, enforcing things is another story, especially when its regressive. As for *ists, you got it exactly right: usabilists were involved. So, the usability theory now opposes what user think is usable because theory knows better..? Are you serious about that? I guess don't you know what people can do to fulfill the model..? Unfortunately logic says that proving something does not make is true, but proving it wrong makes it false. In the new UI there is no way the toolbox menu can be useful. Really. It's a dinosaur and it was about time for some meteorite to save human embarassment of dealing with prehistoric creatures -- all claws, fangs, pointy tales and whatnot. Please accept this change. Ok then, according to your way of thinking, I could call myself a neohuman and kill all other human beings because they are dinosaurs and dealing with these prehistoric creatures is embarrasment. Nothing more misleading :-( Development is totally not about erasing past... so I definitely dont agree with you. (here goes the othe part) There's a lot of I in your mail, but please understand that judgments of one person are not enough. Changes always mean that somebody is going to be pissed off. Providing backwards compatibility for behavior in an application means that this application becomes a horrible mess, as a rule with no exceptions. There is I because these were the cases I used the menu in the toolbox, just as I was asked to do. I stated clearly that there are more people using this menu and they can have their own vision and habits on the usage. I also can deduct from what you say that your changes are to piss off people. Unncecessairly. What I told in point 1 is that these changes could have been done as an option to make both sides happy. You all usabilitists say there is no way instead searching for a way to make it happen. If you say that this menu is too wide to work on one column toolbox, then make a button that call top of this menu (ie. there is File, Edit, ... as the menu after button is pressed). This is possible and I can see on the Brainstoriming page that there are again ideas to make it happen. Regarding the backward compatilibility, I guess that you do not work on x86 machine (or even x86 equipped Mac product) and you have nothing to do with backward compatibility in your everyday life - no money, no mathematics, no four wheel car, no house with entrance door, no applications that were written more than 5 years ago? Again please take a look at the x86 architecture, or Blender file format that contains structure definition so the file can be opened with different versions of the software. This is by design and this makes things work and people use them in a prodictive way with no disturbance - it is engineer work to make it faster and better, and hide it from end user he/she cam use it as is used to. Backward compatibility is what makes things work, this is also true for all science and technology. Most of your points are raised because the toolbox menu was your kind of central point of access to features. This is no longer true in the new design and (arguably) cannot stay true. This is no longer true in your desing, but this is true for people that used this feature and still want to make use of it. I think you try to protect your own truth by all means necessary, listening no feedback from the users. Tell me please why didn't you create your own fork if you didn't like the GIMP way? Forks are when there is no agreement with the vision - I can clearly see that you enforce this vision destroying old functionalities. So what is this discussion about anyway - its not about bringing the damn menu back, but about some people forcing others to do what they want with no option. The patches are ready, the user feedback is there - what is the point, why it cannot happen - because your new bright vision is better than others. Until optional single-window mode is finished (2.8, hopefully), my recommendation to you would be to hold your judgments. What you are seeing in 2.6 is an in-between state, a milestone. In other words, things are changing. You might actually like the final result. Be patient. OK then, I will wait for 2.8 and see if it is at least as usable for me as 2.4 was, because 2.6 is definitely not. There are some nice things implemented in 2.6 though. I just don't understand why some vision is enforced with no user feedback and no user option - from the programmer perspective it is even not hard to implement, either as a menu again, or button that calls the menu. I you hate this menu so much, you can also introduce programmable shortcuts or programmable
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Well, To chip in my two cents, I want to remind you that Gimp is open source and if you want the menu there then you are free to fork and maintain a version of Gimp with the menu in. Arguing against the vision and direction already set is counterproductive at this point. Arguing that one user's work flow is better than any others is just egoism imoo. Rob A ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Rob Antonishen rob.antonis...@gmail.com wrote: Well, To chip in my two cents, I want to remind you that Gimp is open source and if you want the menu there then you are free to fork and maintain a version of Gimp with the menu in. Arguing against the vision and direction already set is counterproductive at this point. Arguing that one user's work flow is better than any others is just egoism imoo. OK guys, I am bad egoist - I want to be productive and use comfortable tools, sometimes I create them, and always try to remember about good standard, quality and usability. Also there are some bad egoists around. New vision is not necessary against standard or backward compatibility, because standard is what makes base for further development. I don't think development requires enforcement, but its your socialist style with your nice theories and wise words, because you enforce others to do as you please with no alternative for them (while this alternative is possible). I just wanted to ask for old menu back, or anything that could be similar to this menu - its not about changing your vision, but accepting feedback from users that enjoyed this feature. Don't you think such vision would be much more fulfilled when at low cost both sides are happy? None of this is going to happen. We waste more time and energy on talking than simply fixing this issue. The patch is created for 2.6, I am switching back to 2.4 then. You can be proud of your bright new vision and forcing everyone to use it, because you know better than user. You are right, I can still use version 2.4 or patch the sources of 2.6, but like I said - its not Open Source anymore, only the source code is available, because you are not open to feedback and user ideas, even when patch is ready. Maybe someone come soon and enforce his own vision irreversibly destroying your work, then you will understand what I was talking about. Regards, Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/24/2010 08:49 PM, Tomek CEDRO wrote: On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Rob Antonishen rob.antonis...@gmail.com wrote: Well, To chip in my two cents, I want to remind you that Gimp is open source and if you want the menu there then you are free to fork and maintain a version of Gimp with the menu in. Arguing against the vision and direction already set is counterproductive at this point. Arguing that one user's work flow is better than any others is just egoism imoo. OK guys, I am bad egoist - I want to be productive and use comfortable tools, sometimes I create them, and always try to remember about good standard, quality and usability. Also there are some bad egoists around. New vision is not necessary against standard or backward compatibility, because standard is what makes base for further development. I don't think development requires enforcement, but its your socialist style with your nice theories and wise words, because you enforce others to do as you please with no alternative for them (while this alternative is possible). I just wanted to ask for old menu back, or anything that could be similar to this menu - its not about changing your vision, but accepting feedback from users that enjoyed this feature. Don't you think such vision would be much more fulfilled when at low cost both sides are happy? None of this is going to happen. We waste more time and energy on talking than simply fixing this issue. The patch is created for 2.6, I am switching back to 2.4 then. You can be proud of your bright new vision and forcing everyone to use it, because you know better than user. You are right, I can still use version 2.4 or patch the sources of 2.6, but like I said - its not Open Source anymore, only the source code is available, because you are not open to feedback and user ideas, even when patch is ready. Maybe someone come soon and enforce his own vision irreversibly destroying your work, then you will understand what I was talking about. I'm not a Gimp developer, but as a software developer I understand the point of view of the current Gimp team, and I sympathize. UI development is one person to do the work and 10 to criticize :-) If we want to improve things we have to shed some of the old. Our ancestors lost their gills when they developed lungs. Having both would have been useful only to a very small set of species. Backward compatibility is nice, often very useful and on the verge of mandatory when it comes to file formats and APIs, but in the world of UIs it creates confusion and is more complicated to achieve than you think (should new features be implemented in both UIs?). It's not uncommon for software to drastically change its human interface. From Windows 3.1 to Seven I see at least two landmark UI changes, and about the same for MS-Office (I'm too recent a Linux convert to tell but I'm sure there are examples on that side of the force, too). OTOH there are usually many ways to skin a specific cat (especially with Gimp), so what you want may be there but under a different guise. __ Ofnuts ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On Sunday, October 24, 2010 21:49:52 Tomek CEDRO wrote: We waste more time and energy on talking than simply fixing this issue. This is not an issue to be fixed. This is a consious decision made in the deveopment of gimp- The patch is created for 2.6, I am switching back to 2.4 then. You can be proud of your bright new vision and forcing everyone to use it, because you know better than user. Nobody is forcing anyone to use it, but for some reason you want to. You are right, I can still use version 2.4 or patch the sources of 2.6, but like I said - its not Open Source anymore, only the source code is available, because you are not open to feedback and user ideas, even when patch is ready. We are very much open to your ideas, but you arent offering an idea, you are compaining about a change with myriad of user ideas, reasons, discussions and idea processing behind it, and reitating all those arguments just to convince you is just not doable. Aslo, I personaly belive GIMP is too big of a codebase to just accept anything more than simple bug fixes as hit and run patches. Everything else needs a bit more commitment than clobering up a patch without much discussion or understanding of the big picture and expecting it to land in master for everybody else to maintain. Maybe someone come soon and enforce his own vision irreversibly destroying your work, then you will understand what I was talking about. This happens all the time when we discuss gimp development and direction. With different perspectives, disagreements are inevtable. I've had ideas crushed and patches thrown out or found unsuitable, but something is always learned, some perspective cleared and progress made. And finally just a general thought: To have a conversation you need to be willing to listen as well as talk. -- Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 24.10.2010 20:49, Tomek CEDRO wrote: OK guys, I am bad egoist[..] possibly, you can convert to being a good egoist: if you want said menu bar really that badly, perhaps you could write a plugin which implements it. The catch: you would have to create the required API for pluggable toolbox items as well. Scratching your own itch can become difficult in large projects. Disclaimer: i'm not a GIMP developer, so this may very well be a good idea at a bad time or simply a bad idea by itself. regards, yahvuu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Dear Alexia, On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 9:37 PM, Alexia Death alexiade...@gmail.com wrote: This is not an issue to be fixed. This is a consious decision made in the deveopment of gimp- (..) Nobody is forcing anyone to use it, but for some reason you want to. (..) And finally just a general thought: To have a conversation you need to be willing to listen as well as talk. Alexia, I have subscribed to this group to make a conversation and it is in progress, so your thought is too general. Also to make situation clear - there are changes iposed to a GIMP 2.6 GUI, mainly to make it more user friendly and functional, this is fine. I am asking for an option to have one old functionality back, this is an issue for me because it was there and it is not at the moment. I am not talking about reversing all changes, but to bring option for a user to select whether he/she want the menu in the toolbar. I am not forcing anyone to use new or old design, as you try to imply, but to leave user a choice with a simple option as they are many in the Preferences dialog. By removing the menu and leaving no option by conscious decision _you_ are forcing people to use new design and this is what you told and this is what I am telling, so please reconsider who is not listening. If the new no-window is better for new users, let it be, but also there could be an option to make menu visible in the toolbar, for the dinosaurs - I gave you few simple solutions on how this can be implemented, also there are such ideas on the GUI Brainstorming page. I just don't understand why this button, icon, or anything is such a problem for you - there are people that enjoyed it - and those people are not forcing anyone to use the menu, as there are menus in other places, also in the no-window. I will wait for 2.8 to see the final result or your bright vision... now I have to get back to work, also good luck to you and please remember about user feedback (also when changes are implemented - not all users are developers) :-) @Ofnuts: for me, the window interface that showed in Atari/Amiga/Commodoer/Apple was very similar to the Win 3..7 as you mentioned - there are windows and buttons and icons. How these windows and buttons look like is not that important, but when some buttons are removed (not rearranged) this is a problem - because in fact all of those buttons are still there, rearranged, recoloured, etc :-) Regards, Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/24/10, Tomek CEDRO wrote: As for *ists, you got it exactly right: usabilists were involved. So, the usability theory now opposes what user think is usable because theory knows better..? Are you serious about that? Jumping at conclusions won't get you anywhere, my friend. In the new UI there is no way the toolbox menu can be useful. Really. It's a dinosaur and it was about time for some meteorite to save human embarassment of dealing with prehistoric creatures -- all claws, fangs, pointy tales and whatnot. Please accept this change. Ok then, according to your way of thinking, I could call myself a neohuman and kill all other human beings because they are dinosaurs and dealing with these prehistoric creatures is embarrasment. Pushing metaphors won't get you anywhere either. I stated clearly that there are more people using this menu and they can have their own vision and habits on the usage. Sure, there are more people who are pissed off. How many? Did you count them? Did you compare their amount with amount of people who absolutely love the way things are changing in GIMP's UI? Use facts for answering that one. What I told in point 1 is that these changes could have been done as an option to make both sides happy. It quite couldn't. You all usabilitists Me? No way :) I'm not usability architect. And that you all %usernames% sounds a bit hysterical. say there is no way instead searching for a way to make it happen. Because it was already analyzed? If you say that this menu is too wide to work on one column toolbox, then make a button that call top of this menu It seems to me that instead of sitting down for one minute and actually listening to what people tell you without jumping at conclusions you go ahead inventing curious ways to support your old habits. This one, in particular, sounds like the cure being worse than disease. Regarding the backward compatilibility, I guess that you do not work on x86 machine (or even x86 equipped Mac product) and you have nothing to do with backward compatibility in your everyday life - no money, no mathematics, no four wheel car, no house with entrance door, no applications that were written more than 5 years ago? Again please take a look at the x86 architecture, or Blender file format that contains structure definition so the file can be opened with different versions of the software. Just FYI the first Blender Foundation's movie can be rendered only with Blender's version that is shipped on the DVD. And a little bird told me that Sintel is going to be the same. That makes your choice of argumentation rather amusing apart from all the other incorrect assumptions you already made and are probably still going to do. I think you try to protect your own truth by all means necessary, Excuse me, are you quite sure you are not talking about yourself? :) Tell me please why didn't you create your own fork if you didn't like the GIMP way? 1. Because I quite like the way things are changing. 2. Because I do not code. Maybe you intended to ask why GIMP developers didn't fork GIMP? I'd love to hear your own version of that one! :) Say a firm no to boring Mondays. Curiously enough, there is a fork of GIMP by a person who just like you didn't like the changes: http://tinyurl.com/394ggmj what is the point, why it cannot happen - because your new bright vision is better than others. You are missing an important bit of information again. Let me enlighten you. The job of usability architect (and it's not me, by the way) is to analyze all the different users requirements and come up with design that will make an application a better experience for most users in the focus group, even if it means abandoning some minorities. Therefore a usability architect's vision cannot be better or worse than someone else's -- it compounds and fuses visions of many people. I can see how conceiving that might take some time for you. Don't hesitate to think about it long enough instead of overreacting again. OK then, I will wait for 2.8 and see if it is at least as usable for me as 2.4 was, because 2.6 is definitely not. Jolly good :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Dear GIMP Developers, I have been using GIMP for about 10 years, I really liked this program, the menu in the toolbox and the way it was. Similarly lots of GIMP users that lets you know that the menu in the toolbox is missing. I don't understand the point of removing this menu without leaving user option to make is available again - if there are people that don't like this menu they should simply make it invisible. Why do you enforce users with your vision on what is better for them, with no other option (some communists or other *ists involved?). I can see that there is a proposition on the GIMP GUI brainstorm site to create some kind of menu in the toolbox (Monday, 26 July 2010, File toolbox menu), so maybe this is a good signal that the menu in the toolbox indeed was useful. There are also ideas on creating elephant large icon menus, so what is wrong with the simple and functional text menu? If you like to know why I did like the menu take a look at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=623472 and please reconsider you decision, at least leaving the choice for user by a radio button. Please note that there are lots of good changes in new GIMP releases that I really like (ie. selection method), I just don't like destroying the menu functionality, useful for me and lots of people, that seems to show back again in the GUI Brainstorming anyway. Best regards, Tomek Cedro ps/2: If you want to know another program that can have multiple menus in _one_ window take a look at Blender3D. -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Hello, I have replied to your bug comment before seeing this email - sorry :P I suggested a solution to your use case there in my comment (please read it first), and I'll add some more detail here: You say that we Enforce the UI changes on the users, and as a matter of fact you are right. BUT, think on the other side: If every program would have an option to get back it's old UI, it will have 3 problems: 1. Users will keep using the old UI they are used to, and they will possibly miss the new features of the new UI that make it better. This will make UI development a waste of time since people will also teach new users to use the old UI... 2. It requires lots of work to keep several UI options available - if we do this for every UI change, it will result in many code that will just be there for compatiability without doing anything more useful. 3. You have to draw the line sometimes. Every program does UI changes as it evolves, as a part of it's vision. Even blender which you mentioned made a massive change between 2.4 and 2.5, and no, they have no option to use the old UI again. Each program has a UI designed for it's special case, so saying Blender has it does not matter since blender is used for a completly different purpose - If you'll show something like this in some 2D app which matches GIMP's product vision (see http://gui.gimp.org/) it may be more relevant. I'm very glad to see the discussion here since we are recieving feedback in the right place - and we need user feedback. But unless you show some clear case, WHICH IS SUITING THE PRODUCT VISION, where the new UI is a problem, I don't see any reason to change back. I'm more than open to see specific cases (which I did not already answer in the bug report) in which the new UI is a problem. If you will find some critical cases in which the new UI is worse than the old - we will consider undoing the change :) But please do note the word critical which I used - just saying I'm used to the old way/it's more comfortable in case XXX (where XXX is a very rare case) is not enough. As far as it may sounds anoying, the program will not be tailor-made to match your useage of it - it will made to be useful to the biggest amount of target users it can, even if it leave some few unfortunate users in a less comfortable situation. For example, I find the new UI very comfortable and more intuitive - and it just shows that not all users agree. So, please find some critical user-case in which the new UI is problomatic, or contribute a patch that allows choosing between the two UI's. If such a patch will be present, and if it is elegant enough, there are higher chances of it being implemented. Happy GIMPing :) ~LightningIsMyName ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
Hello and thank you for kind reply, On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:48 AM, LightningIsMyName lightningismyn...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I have replied to your bug comment before seeing this email - sorry :P No problem, already replied :-) I suggested a solution to your use case there in my comment (please read it first), and I'll add some more detail here: As I have written in the bug report: 1. There is no need to remove this functionality (or any other) - the simplest solution is to connect visibility of that menu with the checkbox in the preferences menu / toolbox section. If anyone wants to see this menu, they check the option. Option unchecked will hide menu and make a free space for other tabbed tools pallettes. No problem, both sides are totally happy :-) 2. The toolbar is smaller and more comfortable and does not hide window I am working on (ie. when taking a screenshot). 3. It was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of windows - I had some worksets placed around different workspaces. This is critical functionality for me. 4. It was great for creating new GIMP sub-windows on separate desktops for each application. 5. Right now I can put/drag the toolbar on a desktop different than where window resides, but the other toolboxes are following the toolbar. 6. When I close last window, so called no-window, GIMP quits - what if I want to have only this toolbar ready to create new picture window (ie. from a screenshot). If you care about space, no need to have additional window. 7. I am really used to have this toolbar open on a free workspace and work on another workspace full of other windows. 8. I cannot execute actions from a toolbar, that was possible when menu was in there (screenshot, scan, open from clipboard etc). I can see that there are ideas in the GIMP GUI Brainstorm to bring some buttons back. So why not to leave whole menu alone? This is critical functionality for me. 9. Closing the toolbar asks to close all windows - so what it the point of having additional main-no-window? (again what gain of space is having huge window on the screen, when we talk about 10px height menu) You say that we Enforce the UI changes on the users, (..) With removing some stuff leaving no option for user and listen to no feedback, unfortunately you are. If every program would have an option to get back it's old UI, I'm not talking about having the old UI for the eternity, but to give user an option, not to destroy what is nice and useful. I really like new features introduced in GIMP 2.6 and I am happy that this great program is still evolving. But making decisions in favor of users and enforcing them rudely with no alternative, just as Martin did in our conversation, is far from meaning of open to me. Its like you have to enter your car by the roof from now on, because this is better for you and it looks better. I hope he did not represent all of the GIMP Developer Community, or I will enforce you all to eat only carrots because this is better for you! ;-) 2. It requires lots of work to keep several UI options available - if we do this for every UI change, it will result in many code that will just be there for compatiability without doing anything more useful. The functionality was already there, so in fact no additional work was required, except the changes that were supposed to be introduced. Right now the menu is also there, nicely redesigned, put into another window. There should be no trouble to bring it back to the toolbox, even patches are available on the gimp-classic website - this project clearly shows that this menu was useful for some people and it's neither about making a fork nor using outdated version, and enforcing that changes maybe could have been done as a fork, or simply an option, not takeover. I'm very glad to see the discussion here since we are recieving feedback in the right place - and we need user feedback. But unless you show some clear case, WHICH IS SUITING THE PRODUCT VISION, where the new UI is a problem, I don't see any reason to change back. I hope the example cases above are simple and gives good overview on how the menu was used. They mainly come from habits of having menu in the toolbox (and so trating it as main windows), but also good use of multidesktop environment that is not a case for current users. I am sure other people has their own use of this menu. Saying that no other program does it is no argument, even though I showed simple example of Blender that does it (also for some time it was changing buttons position, that was horrible, at least key shortcuts were spared, but gimp menu also had been redesigned for clarity what I can understand). The all-in-toolbox window was not that bad, although for Photoshop users might been a bit strange at first sight, so they could switch back to their beloved photoshop or get used to the GIMP style, however if anyone prefers to have this no-window although it serves no purpose,
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On Sun, 2010-10-24 at 02:06 +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: [...] 1. There is no need to remove this functionality (or any other) - the simplest solution is to connect visibility of that menu with the checkbox in the preferences menu / toolbox section. And people will turn it off by mistake, or forget they turned it on, and write tutorials people can't follow, or get stuck... etc etc. I admit I can see a lot of use in a context (pop-up) menu in the drop area of the toolbox, maybe with a button for it, as in the main image window - it'd have a list of active windows to choose from, and maybe the File menu. [...] 3. It was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of windows - I had some worksets placed around different workspaces. This is critical functionality for me. The trend seems to be towards single-window with tabs, although long-term I for one would rather see multiple windows with tabs. 6. When I close last window, so called no-window, GIMP quits - what if I want to have only this toolbar ready to create new picture window (ie. from a screenshot). If you care about space, no need to have additional window. Or, have only the window; if you press tab, the toolbox goes away. The toolbox (it's not actually a toolbar) is just one of many gimp palettes... There's something to be said for running multiple instances of gimp: for one thing you get more control on where files are loaded and saved on a per-project basis. Best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/23/10, Tomek CEDRO wrote: I don't understand the point of removing this menu without leaving user option to make is available again - if there are people that don't like this menu they should simply make it invisible. Why do you enforce users with your vision on what is better for them, with no other option (some communists or other *ists involved?). Enforcing vision is what software development is all about :) You've been using GIMP for ten years after all, you were supposed to know that :) As for *ists, you got it exactly right: usabilists were involved. In the new UI there is no way the toolbox menu can be useful. Really. It's a dinosaur and it was about time for some meteorite to save human embarassment of dealing with prehistoric creatures -- all claws, fangs, pointy tales and whatnot. Please accept this change. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] menu back in the toolbox
On 10/24/10, Tomek CEDRO wrote: 1. There is no need to remove this functionality (or any other) - the simplest solution is to connect visibility of that menu with the checkbox in the preferences menu / toolbox section. If anyone wants to see this menu, they check the option. Option unchecked will hide menu and make a free space for other tabbed tools pallettes. No problem, both sides are totally happy :-) There are more sides than you think. And the sides you mention don't exactly do what you expect of them. 2. The toolbar is smaller and more comfortable and does not hide window I am working on (ie. when taking a screenshot). Smaller than what? With GIMP from Git master I can make toolbox one column wide, whereas toolbox menu enforces (lovely word, I'm gonna use it from now on) width of toolbox of at least three columns, and that already means not seeing Help menu item. That alone is a great reason to kill the toolbox menu, and there are more reasons to do it. 3. It was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of windows - I had some worksets placed around different workspaces. This is critical functionality for me. There's a lot of I in your mail, but please understand that judgments of one person are not enough. Changes always mean that somebody is going to be pissed off. Providing backwards compatibility for behavior in an application means that this application becomes a horrible mess, as a rule with no exceptions. Most of your points are raised because the toolbox menu was your kind of central point of access to features. This is no longer true in the new design and (arguably) cannot stay true. Until optional single-window mode is finished (2.8, hopefully), my recommendation to you would be to hold your judgments. What you are seeing in 2.6 is an in-between state, a milestone. In other words, things are changing. You might actually like the final result. Be patient. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
