Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Well, better late then never on this one. Up until 12/31/1995 I worked for the largest shoe company in the United States. BTW, as of 12/31/2008 they will close their doors as they lost their prime customer...good way to do business ha? Loose one customer and you are done for. Anyway, the same thing happened to me but to a major outsourcer located in FLA. Hint, hey also make aircraft and have large government contracts. The sad thing, besides the fact that all the systems people lost their jobs, and our executive director who became the outsources stuge and then had a heart attach, is that the general user community looses about 50% of the efficiency. Outsourcing for IT purposes glues up the works. Call the outsourcers help desk to resolve a systems issue...fat chance in getting it resolve in anything shorter then 12 hours. --- On Thu, 6/12/08, Gary Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gary Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 9:55 AM As I mentioned in the past, a friend is losing his job (and looking for the next one) because the company he works for is sending all systems programmer, operations and scheduling, as well as a lot of other non-mainframe, positions, to a firm in India. Well, this past week he had to sit down and explain what he does and so forth to the Sr. Systems Programmer sent in by the outsourcing firm. Remember, one only gets ONE chance to make a first impression and this was the outsourcing firm's one chance. According to my friend, it did not look good. Other than the fact that this Sr. Systems Programmer has never installed ANY base OS, he claimed, or so it's thought, that he installed z/OS 1.10, then, it's thought, he retracted that statement and replaced it with he worked on 1.10. Other scary thoughts..., he does not know ANY CA products, does not know who ASG, BMC, EMC are. Never worked with WLM, SMF, SAS, MXG, et. al... When the terms, USI, U29, UJV, U83/84/85 and TRT were mentioned the response was a blank stare. Does not know what a VVDS, VVR, NVR is. Never used IPCS, ISMF, HCD, and IOCDS related stuff. Claimed he knows OSA but wanted to be shown how to configure it, etc... He even claimed he really knew TSO! Not the ISPF interface, which most people think is TSO, but TSO native from the command prompt. This boast was made because he knew how to drop back from ISPF and delete a dataset. In fact, other than SMP/E, there was never a hint of recognition or understanding in the eyes of this Sr. Systems Programmer. However, my friend went along since that is what was required of him. Yesterday this Sr. Systems Programmer was rooting around the system just looking here and there and, as happens often enough, his ISPF Profile dataset went into extents and filled up. What really ticked my friend off was this Sr. Systems Programmer sent an email to DASD administrator asking her how he, this Sr. Systems Programmer, could increase the size of the profile dataset. He couldn't continue his duties because the dataset filled up... Sorry for the rant, but my friend had to get it off his chest, and I, passing it along, mine. There are plenty other examples but my friend just sighed and left at this. Gary Green I can use all the help I can get with my fight against cancer! Please support my efforts! Thank you. http://www.active.com/donate/tntsonj/tntsonjGGreen http://www.active.com/donate/tntsonj/tntsonjGGreen -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
At my last job, the datacenter was outsourced, actually residing in another state. The few times that I called the outsourcers help desk, I always got help very quickly. I suspect a lot depends on your outsourcer, and your contract. Eric Howard Rifkind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, better late then never on this one. Up until 12/31/1995 I worked for the largest shoe company in the United States. BTW, as of 12/31/2008 they will close their doors as they lost their prime customer...good way to do business ha? Loose one customer and you are done for. Anyway, the same thing happened to me but to a major outsourcer located in FLA. Hint, hey also make aircraft and have large government contracts. The sad thing, besides the fact that all the systems people lost their jobs, and our executive director who became the outsources stuge and then had a heart attach, is that the general user community looses about 50% of the efficiency. Outsourcing for IT purposes glues up the works. Call the outsourcers help desk to resolve a systems issue...fat chance in getting it resolve in anything shorter then 12 hours. -- Eric Bielefeld Systems Programmer Milwaukee, Wisconsin -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Hello! It is really unfortunate that they had to contend with such a lousy interviewee and my sympathies are totally with your friend as he has a right to be aggrieved here. Being replaced by someone is not a problem but this is a farce if it is true. (You don't have to be a 'Sr. System Analyst' to make a goof up on Z/OS 1.10 - he was too highly qualified for that!) But at the same time I think it is really incorrect (even insulting!) to generalize this thing to all offshore people. I have many friends who work as part of off-shore teams across various verticals. I am not sure about the off-shoring practices in other countries but here is my take on India's Off-shoring model (not necessarily mainframes). India has been traditionally an agriculture-based economy with a large part of the population involved in largely unskilled professions. It was only in the late-90's that the offshore boom took place in India. And as it happens with any other successful practice around the world (remember the Gold Rush!) every company or consultant worth his own salt has set up a shop trying to lure global clients. Now, it is not possible for these companies to find highly skilled resources as there is no process or tradition in place so it is usual for them to hire fresh engineering graduates and bump them into 'production environment'. I guess the Sr. System Analyst was one of those breed :) Someone posted a reply, stating that wages were rising across India - and that's true! The off-shore industry in India is still at a nascent stage and as people start gaining skills - they demand a higher (or as someone said American) style of living. But again the moral of the story - Don't generalise it; Watch where you put your money. Saurabh P.S. Apologize for the long reply - just trying to make this conversation two sided. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Hawkins Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:47 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... Tom, Thanks. I'm glad to see you regard us with such high esteem. I like it when people say exactly what they mean. Ron people overseas are not as skilled (even more skilled? That's a joke). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html DISCLAIMER: This email (including any attachments) is intended for the sole use of the intended recipient/s and may contain material that is CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVATE COMPANY INFORMATION. Any review or reliance by others or copying or distribution or forwarding of any or all of the contents in this message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by email and delete all copies; your cooperation in this regard is appreciated. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman snip sympathies to Gary's friend; perhaps he can get re-hired to help untangle the disaster, once senior management realizes how bad it's going to be. Enron. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lizette Koehler Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:37 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... I think there is IT training in colleges here in the USA. Just not Mainframe courses. Most universities here believe that the OPEN SYSTEMS is the only areas to teach. I took a JAVA and C++ college class. I asked if they would offer some mainframe languages like Assembler and COBOL and PL/I. I got laughed at. It seems they no longer understand the significance of the mainframe envionment. Which really is good. When I retire I hope to make 110+/hr as a contractor from HOME working on all the areas that the university is neglecting here. Lizette 110/hr, assuming you mean US dollars is actually rather cheap. I charged one ex-employer $100/hr to fix a problem (caused by somebody changing something that they didn't understand) back in the 1980s. Of course, telecomuting from your house will cut down on the overhead. Might even buy you a gallon of gas. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gary Green As I mentioned in the past, a friend is losing his job (and looking for the next one) because the company he works for is sending all systems programmer, operations and scheduling, as well as a lot of other non-mainframe, positions, to a firm in India. Well, this past week he had to sit down and explain what he does and so forth to the Sr. Systems Programmer sent in by the outsourcing firm. Remember, one only gets ONE chance to make a first impression and this was the outsourcing firm's one chance. According to my friend, it did not look good. Other than the fact that this Sr. Systems Programmer has never installed ANY base OS, he claimed, or so it's thought, that he installed z/OS 1.10, then, it's thought, he retracted that statement and replaced it with he worked on 1.10. The other kind of ESP, maybe? Other scary thoughts..., [ snip ] Sorry for the rant, but my friend had to get it off his chest, and I, passing it along, mine. There are plenty other examples but my friend just sighed and left at this. Apparently management there does not fully comprehend all the implications of You get what you pay for. If it's a publicly-held firm, I think I'd want to divest.. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Remind me to dump the stock in that company! -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:55:59 -0400 Gary Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: :As I mentioned in the past, a friend is losing his job (and looking for the :next one) because the company he works for is sending all systems :programmer, operations and scheduling, as well as a lot of other :non-mainframe, positions, to a firm in India. :Well, this past week he had to sit down and explain what he does and so :forth to the Sr. Systems Programmer sent in by the outsourcing firm. :Remember, one only gets ONE chance to make a first impression and this was :the outsourcing firm's one chance. According to my friend, it did not look :good. :Other than the fact that this Sr. Systems Programmer has never installed :ANY base OS, he claimed, or so it's thought, that he installed z/OS 1.10, :then, it's thought, he retracted that statement and replaced it with he :worked on 1.10. :Other scary thoughts..., he does not know ANY CA products, does not know who :ASG, BMC, EMC are. Never worked with WLM, SMF, SAS, MXG, et. al... When :the terms, USI, U29, UJV, U83/84/85 and TRT were mentioned the response was :a blank stare. Does not know what a VVDS, VVR, NVR is. Never used IPCS, :ISMF, HCD, and IOCDS related stuff. Claimed he knows OSA but wanted to :be shown how to configure it, etc... He even claimed he really knew TSO! :Not the ISPF interface, which most people think is TSO, but TSO native from :the command prompt. This boast was made because he knew how to drop back :from ISPF and delete a dataset. In fact, other than SMP/E, there was :never a hint of recognition or understanding in the eyes of this Sr. :Systems Programmer. :However, my friend went along since that is what was required of him. :Yesterday this Sr. Systems Programmer was rooting around the system just :looking here and there and, as happens often enough, his ISPF Profile :dataset went into extents and filled up. What really ticked my friend off :was this Sr. Systems Programmer sent an email to DASD administrator asking :her how he, this Sr. Systems Programmer, could increase the size of the :profile dataset. He couldn't continue his duties because the dataset filled :up... :Sorry for the rant, but my friend had to get it off his chest, and I, :passing it along, mine. There are plenty other examples but my friend just :sighed and left at this. Sounds like he has a chance for serious contracting money to stay around during and after the transition. -- Binyamin Dissen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dissensoftware.com Director, Dissen Software, Bar Grill - Israel Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me, you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain. I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, especially those from irresponsible companies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
so he installed an operating system that isn't even out yet, good one, and then he had no clue about the widely known SMF exits. Hey, I know the answer, maybe he's a USS expert instead (Unix System Services), I didn't see that mentioned. I am curious however, exactly what it is that the supposed senior systems outsource person knows, and exactly what has he done before, obviously it isn't much. Has he even seen a mainframe before? maybe he read a book and declared himself an expert. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
In a message dated 6/12/2008 9:39:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am curious however, exactly what it is that the supposed senior systems outsource person knows, and exactly what has he done before, obviously it isn't much. I wonder if he even knows how to spell I-B-M. The company that is doing this will probably blame the inevitable debacle on IBM. Bill Fairchild **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
You're all sure to meet him as soon as he discovers IBM-MAIN. You'll know him immediately after only reading the first line of his post. (-: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bobbie Justice Sent: 12. kesäkuuta 2008 17:39 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... so he installed an operating system that isn't even out yet, good one, and then he had no clue about the widely known SMF exits. Hey, I know the answer, maybe he's a USS expert instead (Unix System Services), I didn't see that mentioned. I am curious however, exactly what it is that the supposed senior systems outsource person knows, and exactly what has he done before, obviously it isn't much. Has he even seen a mainframe before? maybe he read a book and declared himself an expert. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
snip maybe he read a book and declared himself an expert. /snip You can do that? I just have been giving myself random titles. Maybe we can use his time travel abilities to ask him about the pitfalls of a z/OS 1.10 install. PS. Sorry for the added noise on the list. Fletch Director of Temporal Physics -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... You're all sure to meet him as soon as he discovers IBM-MAIN. You'll know him immediately after only reading the first line of his post. (-: I think that I may have already on MVS-OE quote -Original Message- From: MVS OpenEdition [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elided Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [MVS-OE] Z /OS Hi, I am in Mayara and I am doing a job for the option on the Z / OS. I wonder if I can send a video demo on the operating system. Thank! /quote -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield You're all sure to meet him as soon as he discovers IBM-MAIN. You'll know him immediately after only reading the first line of his post. (-: I think that I may have already on MVS-OE quote -Original Message- From: MVS OpenEdition [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elided Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [MVS-OE] Z /OS Hi, I am in Mayara and I am doing a job for the option on the Z / OS. I wonder if I can send a video demo on the operating system. Thank! /quote Definitely dump the stock! -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
It seems that more and more, systems programmers either find some old-timer to mentor them or they have to shoehorn themselves into positions to learn their jobs on their own. Companies don't want to train them. Same thing with CoBOL or PL/I programmers. Actually, this is part of a bigger trend towards immediate gratification instead of long term grain. CEOs don't benefit by thinking long term anymore. But it is a historical fact that societies that believe in long term wealth production produce consistent growth, and those that don't do not. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
This is really scary, not only because of the lack of skills, but IMHO because of the lack of security. Besides this company obviously getting someone who doesn't know what they are doing, they are giving away the keys to the kingdom. Who is verifying the integrity of the employees of the outsourcers? As you can see from my signature I work for a bank. While banks can get someone who is not on the up-and-up, they take great pains not to by doing extensive background checks. Now companies are sending tasks like z/OS system programming and Windows and Unix administration oversees. To do their jobs those people usually have a very high level of access to the systems. Can you say cyber terrorism? Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gary Green As I mentioned in the past, a friend is losing his job (and looking for the next one) because the company he works for is sending all systems programmer, operations and scheduling, as well as a lot of other non-mainframe, positions, to a firm in India. Well, this past week he had to sit down and explain what he does and so forth to the Sr. Systems Programmer sent in by the outsourcing firm. Remember, one only gets ONE chance to make a first impression and this was the outsourcing firm's one chance. According to my friend, it did not look good. Other than the fact that this Sr. Systems Programmer has never installed ANY base OS, he claimed, or so it's thought, that he installed z/OS 1.10, then, it's thought, he retracted that statement and replaced it with he worked on 1.10. The other kind of ESP, maybe? Other scary thoughts..., [ snip ] Sorry for the rant, but my friend had to get it off his chest, and I, passing it along, mine. There are plenty other examples but my friend just sighed and left at this. Apparently management there does not fully comprehend all the implications of You get what you pay for. If it's a publicly-held firm, I think I'd want to divest.. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:00 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... It seems that more and more, systems programmers either find some old-timer to mentor them or they have to shoehorn themselves into positions to learn their jobs on their own. Companies don't want to train them. Same thing with CoBOL or PL/I programmers. Actually, this is part of a bigger trend towards immediate gratification instead of long term grain. CEOs don't benefit by thinking long term anymore. But it is a historical fact that societies that believe in long term wealth production produce consistent growth, and those that don't do not. And I will add that stock holders also don't care about the long term anymore. If the stock holders in a company did, and voiced their concern, then the CEOs and others would likely learn to respond that way too. Today's world wants instant gratification and immediate returns. The same is true of governments today. No long term thinking. They think only to the next election. Imperial Rome died from this (IMO, but I'm not a historian). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On IBM-MAIN, there seem to be very many helpful experts, but at ibmmainframes.com there is a plethora of very inexperienced posters. Pedro Vera phone (408) 463-4812 internet [EMAIL PROTECTED] homepage http://pedro.userv.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:50:26 -0500, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... You're all sure to meet him as soon as he discovers IBM-MAIN. You'll know him immediately after only reading the first line of his post. (-: I think that I may have already on MVS-OE -- Hi, I am in Mayara and I am doing a job for the option on the Z / OS. -- I wonder if I can send a video demo on the operating system. -- Thank! Good find John, I think you found the senior z/OS systems programmer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Sorry, but I think you are making it very wide. Some companies really give up on hiring from inside the Country moving the services to overseas, but people overseas are almost as skilled or even more skilled. They are just cheaper. As to the fact of terrorism it will always depend on what kind of company one will contract. You can always suffer from terrorism from inside also. And yes, I work in Brazil, so outside US. And yes I work in a project for a US company. But I work for a US company also. On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Kelman, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is really scary, not only because of the lack of skills, but IMHO because of the lack of security. Besides this company obviously getting someone who doesn't know what they are doing, they are giving away the keys to the kingdom. Who is verifying the integrity of the employees of the outsourcers? As you can see from my signature I work for a bank. While banks can get someone who is not on the up-and-up, they take great pains not to by doing extensive background checks. Now companies are sending tasks like z/OS system programming and Windows and Unix administration oversees. To do their jobs those people usually have a very high level of access to the systems. Can you say cyber terrorism? Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gary Green As I mentioned in the past, a friend is losing his job (and looking for the next one) because the company he works for is sending all systems programmer, operations and scheduling, as well as a lot of other non-mainframe, positions, to a firm in India. Well, this past week he had to sit down and explain what he does and so forth to the Sr. Systems Programmer sent in by the outsourcing firm. Remember, one only gets ONE chance to make a first impression and this was the outsourcing firm's one chance. According to my friend, it did not look good. Other than the fact that this Sr. Systems Programmer has never installed ANY base OS, he claimed, or so it's thought, that he installed z/OS 1.10, then, it's thought, he retracted that statement and replaced it with he worked on 1.10. The other kind of ESP, maybe? Other scary thoughts..., [ snip ] Sorry for the rant, but my friend had to get it off his chest, and I, passing it along, mine. There are plenty other examples but my friend just sighed and left at this. Apparently management there does not fully comprehend all the implications of You get what you pay for. If it's a publicly-held firm, I think I'd want to divest.. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Howard Brazee) writes: It seems that more and more, systems programmers either find some old-timer to mentor them or they have to shoehorn themselves into positions to learn their jobs on their own. Companies don't want to train them. Same thing with CoBOL or PL/I programmers. and how did the old timers learn their jobs? ... back in the days of having to walk ten miles to school, barefoot in the snow ... uphill both ways. slightly related post in this blog ... that drifted over into outsourcing: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#65 How do you manage your value statement? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#66 How do you manage your value statement? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Sure we can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGRCn0vwK3c -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bobbie Justice Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:50:26 -0500, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... You're all sure to meet him as soon as he discovers IBM-MAIN. You'll know him immediately after only reading the first line of his post. (-: I think that I may have already on MVS-OE -- Hi, I am in Mayara and I am doing a job for the option on the Z / OS. -- I wonder if I can send a video demo on the operating system. -- Thank! Good find John, I think you found the senior z/OS systems programmer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
In a message dated 6/12/2008 10:47:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, but I think you are making it very wide. I disagree, if by wide you mean exaggerating the problem. Some companies really give up on hiring from inside the Country moving the services to overseas, but people overseas are almost as skilled or even more skilled. They are just cheaper. No disagreement with this. As to the fact of terrorism it will always depend on what kind of company one will contract. You can always suffer from terrorism from inside also. Nobody said anything about terrorism. Now you are making it very wide. The entire discussion so far has been about experience and, most importantly, COMPETENCY. A business is free to move everything anywhere it wants (if legal), and can also hire only totally incompetent and unskilled workers, but then someone will have to train those workers and get them up to speed. If their employer won't do it, then the employer should be expected to suffer financially as a result of the incompetence of its management. Bill Fairchild **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of (IBM Mainframe Discussion List) Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... snip As to the fact of terrorism it will always depend on what kind of company one will contract. You can always suffer from terrorism from inside also. Nobody said anything about terrorism. Now you are making it very wide. The entire discussion so far has been about experience and, most importantly, COMPETENCY. snip Can you say cyber terrorism? [from a post by Tom Kelman at Commerce Bank of Kansas City which is where this comment came from.] Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John And I will add that stock holders also don't care about the long term anymore. The same is true of governments today. No long term thinking. They think only to the next election. Imperial Rome died from this (IMO, but I'm not a historian). ITYM They think only OF the next election. In many ways, the good ole USA died with JFK, but like the freshly-decapitated chicken, doesn't yet realize that it's dead. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
In a message dated 6/12/2008 11:16:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can you say cyber terrorism? [from a post by Tom Kelman at Commerce Bank of Kansas City which is where this comment came from.] Sorry. I missed that post. There is also management terrorism, in which incompetent management blunder their way into eventual dissolution of a good company. I have worked at more than one place like that. Bill Fairchild **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Anne Lynn Wheeler Howard Brazee writes: It seems that more and more, systems programmers either find some old-timer to mentor them or they have to shoehorn themselves into positions to learn their jobs on their own. Companies don't want to train them. Same thing with CoBOL or PL/I programmers. and how did the old timers learn their jobs? They _invented_ them. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
---snip As I mentioned in the past, a friend is losing his job (and looking for the next one) because the company he works for is sending all systems programmer, operations and scheduling, as well as a lot of other non-mainframe, positions, to a firm in India. Well, this past week he had to sit down and explain what he does and so forth to the Sr. Systems Programmer sent in by the outsourcing firm. Remember, one only gets ONE chance to make a first impression and this was the outsourcing firm's one chance. According to my friend, it did not look good. Other than the fact that this Sr. Systems Programmer has never installed ANY base OS, he claimed, or so it's thought, that he installed z/OS 1.10, then, it's thought, he retracted that statement and replaced it with he worked on 1.10. Other scary thoughts..., he does not know ANY CA products, does not know who ASG, BMC, EMC are. Never worked with WLM, SMF, SAS, MXG, et. al... When the terms, USI, U29, UJV, U83/84/85 and TRT were mentioned the response was a blank stare. Does not know what a VVDS, VVR, NVR is. Never used IPCS, ISMF, HCD, and IOCDS related stuff. Claimed he knows OSA but wanted to be shown how to configure it, etc... He even claimed he really knew TSO! Not the ISPF interface, which most people think is TSO, but TSO native from the command prompt. This boast was made because he knew how to drop back from ISPF and delete a dataset. In fact, other than SMP/E, there was never a hint of recognition or understanding in the eyes of this Sr. Systems Programmer. However, my friend went along since that is what was required of him. Yesterday this Sr. Systems Programmer was rooting around the system just looking here and there and, as happens often enough, his ISPF Profile dataset went into extents and filled up. What really ticked my friend off was this Sr. Systems Programmer sent an email to DASD administrator asking her how he, this Sr. Systems Programmer, could increase the size of the profile dataset. He couldn't continue his duties because the dataset filled up... Sorry for the rant, but my friend had to get it off his chest, and I, passing it along, mine. There are plenty other examples but my friend just sighed and left at this. --unsnip--- Can we say Disaster that found a place to happen? Your friend may be in a very strong position vis-a-vis consulting fees when this vulture (opps, chicken) comes home to roost. This so-called Sr Systems Programmer from the outsourcing firm has succeeded in giving his firm a distinct aroma - formaldehyde and lilies! I suspect that this particular outsourcing isn't going to last more than a week or so. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-snip- Apparently management there does not fully comprehend all the implications of You get what you pay for. If it's a publicly-held firm, I think I'd want to divest.. ---unsnip-- GOT THAT RIGHT! About 15 minutes ago! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-snip--- maybe he read a book and declared himself an expert. ---unsnip Don't bet on it. He doesn't sound that bright! :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On 12 Jun 2008 09:05:03 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thompson, Steve) wrote: As to the fact of terrorism it will always depend on what kind of company one will contract. You can always suffer from terrorism from inside also. Terrorism is the new word virtually all governments use to label their enemies. But if their tool isn't terror, then it isn't terrorism.Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman -snip--- maybe he read a book and declared himself an expert. ---unsnip Don't bet on it. He doesn't sound that bright! :-) Perhaps not in English, but in his native language he might be a John Glimore. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
snip--- On IBM-MAIN, there seem to be very many helpful experts, but at ibmmainframes.com there is a plethora of very inexperienced posters. ---unsnip-- At the risk of sounding very arrogant, I say let them stay there. We don't have the time to be their online mentors; we have our own work to get done. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
- Original Message - From: , IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... In a message dated 6/12/2008 9:39:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am curious however, exactly what it is that the supposed senior systems outsource person knows, and exactly what has he done before, obviously it isn't much. I wonder if he even knows how to spell I-B-M. I'll bet he can spell H1B. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
In a message dated 6/12/2008 11:33:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry. I missed that post. There is also management terrorism, in which incompetent management blunder their way into eventual dissolution of a good company. I have worked at more than one place like that. Yeah somewhere along the line started seeing the 'Document Managers' taking over the IT slots. Absolutely clueless but they dressed nice. Anyway was in good with the CE's and was able to get track records of the 90 day wonders. Even had one who was so clueless hired a 'System programmer' who was going to fix all our problems yadda,yadda, yadda and the guy's wandering the halls asking off the wall questions. Long story short-escaped murderer from N. M.! Seems like the association with qualifications and job descriptions has fallen off the table. In the olden days basic competency tests were the norm. **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
- Original Message - From: , IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:57 AM Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... In a message dated 6/12/2008 10:47:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, but I think you are making it very wide. I disagree, if by wide you mean exaggerating the problem. Some companies really give up on hiring from inside the Country moving the services to overseas, but people overseas are almost as skilled or even more skilled. They are just cheaper. No disagreement with this. Actually, huge disagreement with this. The OP clearly shows that people overseas are not as skilled (even more skilled? That's a joke). Cheaper, sure, but you get what you pay for. Communications of the ACM (CACM) just had a study of offshoring, and one of the dirty little secrets right now is that wages in India are increasing, and people are jumping companies in search of the next rupee (similar to what was going on here throughout the 80's and early 90's). CACM reports that offshore turnover negatively impacts companies because they're constantly retraining personnel. They won't stay cheaper for long, as it is beginning to dawn on many Indians that there is intrinsic value to what they provide. TATA et al. will milk the tit for as long as they can, but you can't hold back people who want a US standard of living. I could go on, but that's enough of a rant for one day. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
I have worked for bosses that tried to use terror as a tool! Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6/12/2008 12:49 PM Terrorism is the new word virtually all governments use to label their enemies. But if their tool isn't terror, then it isn't terrorism.Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? Note that my email domain has changed from jo-annstores.com to joann.com. Please update your address book and other records to reflect this change. CONFIDENTIALITY/EMAIL NOTICE: The material in this transmission contains confidential and privileged information intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you have received this material in error and that any forwarding, copying, printing, distribution, use or disclosure of the material is strictly prohibited. If you have received this material in error, please (i) do not read it, (ii) reply to the sender that you received the message in error, and (iii) erase or destroy the material. Emails are not secure and can be intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by email. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Read up on the life and times of one Thomas J Watson... (G, D R) Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
In a message dated 6/12/2008 12:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have worked for bosses that tried to use terror as a tool! Guess we used to call it F.U.D.(fear, uncertainty, doubt), Spiral marketing, corporate espionage, trade secrets, intellectual property, Peter principle, death by aggravation, Malthus' doctrine, Mazlow's Hierarchy of needs, Hertsberg's principle of dissatisfiers... makes my head hurt. **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On 12 Jun 2008 10:10:27 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pinnacle) wrote: Actually, huge disagreement with this. The OP clearly shows that people overseas are not as skilled (even more skilled? That's a joke). Cheaper, sure, but you get what you pay for. Communications of the ACM (CACM) just had a study of offshoring, and one of the dirty little secrets right now is that wages in India are increasing, and people are jumping companies in search of the next rupee (similar to what was going on here throughout the 80's and early 90's). Sure, that has always happened. Textiles went from New England to the South to overseas.Cars went from the U.S. to Japan to Korea. Etc. When India becomes more expensive it's more highly skilled companies will still be useful for many combined US/Indian teams because of its location 12 hours away.(High paid skilled workers are less interested in working grave yard shift).But the lesser skilled work will be outsourced again to those who need the money enough to be willing to work for less. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:50 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... On 12 Jun 2008 09:05:03 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thompson, Steve) wrote: As to the fact of terrorism it will always depend on what kind of company one will contract. You can always suffer from terrorism from inside also. Terrorism is the new word virtually all governments use to label their enemies. But if their tool isn't terror, then it isn't terrorism.Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? SNIP I think you have miscopied a posting. I did not say this. Regards, Steve Thompson -- All opinions expressed by me are my own and may not necessarily reflect those of my employer. -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
So, you really think that, if one is not north american, a US citzen, then he/she has less skills?? I think of it as a xenophobic problem. Actually, I realy think that, because of all the problems we have here in Brazil, where I live (I can't comment about India, as I don't know) such as lack of formal training or base education, we learned to study by ourselves and for what I see here people are very competent. I have been there in the US and talk to a friend of mine who lives there see that the problem there is a bad circle: companies start to out source because people stop studing IT, and people stop studing IT because of the outsourcing. I am not saying that we are better... I just want to say that it's different. Ricardo. On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Pinnacle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: , IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:57 AM Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... In a message dated 6/12/2008 10:47:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, but I think you are making it very wide. I disagree, if by wide you mean exaggerating the problem. Some companies really give up on hiring from inside the Country moving the services to overseas, but people overseas are almost as skilled or even more skilled. They are just cheaper. No disagreement with this. Actually, huge disagreement with this. The OP clearly shows that people overseas are not as skilled (even more skilled? That's a joke). Cheaper, sure, but you get what you pay for. Communications of the ACM (CACM) just had a study of offshoring, and one of the dirty little secrets right now is that wages in India are increasing, and people are jumping companies in search of the next rupee (similar to what was going on here throughout the 80's and early 90's). CACM reports that offshore turnover negatively impacts companies because they're constantly retraining personnel. They won't stay cheaper for long, as it is beginning to dawn on many Indians that there is intrinsic value to what they provide. TATA et al. will milk the tit for as long as they can, but you can't hold back people who want a US standard of living. I could go on, but that's enough of a rant for one day. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
In a message dated 6/12/2008 12:30:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the lesser skilled work will be outsourced again to those who need the money enough to be willing to work for less Just as manufacturing jobs are migrating from one outsourced country to another when the first location's cost of production rises too high. Ralph Nader calls this the race to the bottom. Perhaps ultimately everything on earth will be made in Haiti or Botswana. Bill Fairchild **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
(IBM Mainframe Discussion List) wrote: Nobody said anything about terrorism. Now you are making it very wide. The entire discussion so far has been about experience and, most importantly, COMPETENCY. Some years back, IBM outsourced operations and system maintenance for their Poughkeepsie-based systems to Brazil. Because they have been our customer for decades, I had many opportunities to talk to and work with the Americans that did these jobs and have some basis for comparison with the people that do it now. There is no comparison. The Americans were among the best system programmers I have ever known. It seemed like they knew *everything* about MVS and they taught me many useful things. (Sometimes I wonder if Mark Zelden trained there! ;-) ) The new people seemed to know almost nothing when they first started. They asked dumb support questions. (Q: In which proclib did we place your started task JCL? A: We don't know. Ask one of your colleagues.) At times we were teaching them how to do their jobs! These days, they're more self-sufficient than before, but still require some hand holding. From my limited contact, I would say a *significant* amount of in-depth z/OS expertise was lost during that transition. :-( A business is free to move everything anywhere it wants (if legal), and can also hire only totally incompetent and unskilled workers, but then someone will have to train those workers and get them up to speed. If their employer won't do it, then the employer should be expected to suffer financially as a result of the incompetence of its management. In big companies, decision-makers often move on to new positions before the problems resulting from their poor decisions have a chance to surface. A few years ago, IBM outsourced JES development from Poughkeepsie to India. Now *that* was a debacle!! After receiving the obligatory accolades and bonuses for a job well done, those responsible for that decision moved into other jobs -- where they presumably get to make new, bad decisions. Meanwhile, JES development has now been in-sourced back to Americans living in Rochester, MN. THANK GOD! -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Howard Brazee asked: -snip- Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? -snip All those with military service need not respond. Steve Conway MSgt, USMC (Ret.) Lead Systems Programmer Information Systems Services Division Computer Network Operations Phone: (703) 450-3156 Fax:(703) 450-3197 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Conway Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:52 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... Howard Brazee asked: -snip- Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? -snip All those with military service need not respond. Steve Conway MSgt, USMC (Ret.) I'm not sure how to take this. I don't consider our military personnel to be terrorists. Well, other than D.I.s of course. grin -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Howard: Will Durant, a famous historian once said that a nation is born stoic and dies epicurean. The same is true for everything from Operating Systems, to change control to society in general. We enhance everything to a point where it is sophisticated and mature and then abandon it because it is too expensive. Then we begin again. Bill When India becomes more expensive it's more highly skilled companies will still be useful for many combined US/Indian teams because of its location 12 hours away. (High paid skilled workers are less interested in working grave yard shift). But the lesser skilled work will be outsourced again to those who need the money enough to be willing to work for less. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Conway Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:52 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... Howard Brazee asked: -snip- Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? -snip All those with military service need not respond. snip OK. Want me to name the companies? I think I'd rather continue working. However, one of the most widely known has intitials that match the initials of a US state. Regards, Steve Thompson -- All opinions expressed by me are my own and may not necessarily reflect those of my employer. -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
The xenophobia disappears quickly enough. Once we had some experience with a number of offshore contractors (UK, Eastern Europe, India, China) we discovered that the talent level is the same bell curve we have here. A few truly talented folks, a few really unskilled folks and the large bell in between. People are people all over, some you like, some you don't. Some make your work easier, some harder. Their origin and location is irrelevant. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ricardo Lee Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... So, you really think that, if one is not north american, a US citzen, then he/she has less skills?? I think of it as a xenophobic problem. Actually, I realy think that, because of all the problems we have here in Brazil, where I live (I can't comment about India, as I don't know) such as lack of formal training or base education, we learned to study by ourselves and for what I see here people are very competent. I have been there in the US and talk to a friend of mine who lives there see that the problem there is a bad circle: companies start to out source because people stop studing IT, and people stop studing IT because of the outsourcing. I am not saying that we are better... I just want to say that it's different. Ricardo. On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Pinnacle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: , IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:57 AM Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... In a message dated 6/12/2008 10:47:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, but I think you are making it very wide. I disagree, if by wide you mean exaggerating the problem. Some companies really give up on hiring from inside the Country moving the services to overseas, but people overseas are almost as skilled or even more skilled. They are just cheaper. No disagreement with this. Actually, huge disagreement with this. The OP clearly shows that people overseas are not as skilled (even more skilled? That's a joke). Cheaper, sure, but you get what you pay for. Communications of the ACM (CACM) just had a study of offshoring, and one of the dirty little secrets right now is that wages in India are increasing, and people are jumping companies in search of the next rupee (similar to what was going on here throughout the 80's and early 90's). CACM reports that offshore turnover negatively impacts companies because they're constantly retraining personnel. They won't stay cheaper for long, as it is beginning to dawn on many Indians that there is intrinsic value to what they provide. TATA et al. will milk the tit for as long as they can, but you can't hold back people who want a US standard of living. I could go on, but that's enough of a rant for one day. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Wilkie) writes: Will Durant, a famous historian once said that a nation is born stoic and dies epicurean. The same is true for everything from Operating Systems, to change control to society in general. We enhance everything to a point where it is sophisticated and mature and then abandon it because it is too expensive. Then we begin again. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#72 Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... Boyd ooda-loop would say that it got too rigid and structured ... including too many people with vested interests in not changing. OODA-loop metaphor focuses on agile, adaptibility and change http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html ... I would assert that it isn't too expensive per se ... but too rigid and unable to adapt. Vested interests are likely to throw up lots of road blocks to change ... making things more complicated (and also expensive). Frequently KISS is more conducive to being inexpensive, agile, and adaptable (and also viewed as threat to vested interests). There is some claim that somewhat happened in the wake of the failed future system project ... old post that includes comments from fergus/morris book about the wake left after future system project failed http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#33 lots of past posts mentioning failed future system project http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#futuresys and it took the corporation quite some time to work out of it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
I.R.S.? SNIP Howard Brazee asked: -snip- Have you worked for companies that used terror as a weapon or tool? -snip All those with military service need not respond. snip OK. Want me to name the companies? I think I'd rather continue working. However, one of the most widely known has intitials that match the initials of a US state. /SNIP -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Ricardo, My responses below. Regards, Tom Conley - Original Message - From: Ricardo Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... So, you really think that, if one is not north american, a US citzen, then he/she has less skills?? I'm limiting my discussion to offshoring firms, about 99.99% of which are based in India. Systems Programming cannot be taught in a classroom. For every ounce of knowledge, you need a pound of experience. But people with those pounds of experience don't charge $5-10/hr. They charge more like $75-125/hr, or more. IBM's standard bill rate for systems programming in the US is upwards of $250/hr, but their skills matrix puts a maximum of about $60 in the system programmer's pocket. IBM here is becoming our worst enemy. They decry the lack of mainframe skills on the one hand, then their puchasing department drives people out of the marketplace with their ridiculous skill matrix pricing. I'm not sure of the standard of living in Brazil, but I'd bet that sysprogs there make more than $5-10/hr. I think of it as a xenophobic problem. I'm not xenophobic. I am perturbed with the fiction that $10/hr talent with no experience and a special H1B visa provides better value. Actually, I realy think that, because of all the problems we have here in Brazil, where I live (I can't comment about India, as I don't know) such as lack of formal training or base education, we learned to study by ourselves and for what I see here people are very competent. I have been there in the US and talk to a friend of mine who lives there see that the problem there is a bad circle: companies start to out source because people stop studing IT, and people stop studing IT because of the outsourcing. People didn't stop studying IT, their management stopped encouraging their education. Companies have cut back on training, college tuition reimbursements, etc. Pressure to do the day to day job leaves no time to try something new. God help you if you try something new and it goes wrong. So most fulltime employees stick to what they know. That keeps them employed and keeps food on the table. I am not saying that we are better... I just want to say that it's different. Ricardo. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Tom, when I said people stopped studding IT I mean people in college. My friend himself was an IT Student, but decides to go to an management school after he realized companies in the US are sending their IT programming to other countries. I don't think it's only money, IT companies have no choice as senior programmers start quitting work and there is nobody to put in their places. That's the circle. Sorry to say it was a xenophobic problem, but that sounds like it was. I agree that a large number of the firms here (again I don't know India) gets first-year college students to put in positions where it was needed to put a senior programmer, and that is why we're cheaper, at least at first sight. After a while, as this student gets experience programs will be better, but that will only happens when the contractor has invested so much money that he doesn't want to came back and start all over again. But it's to late. So the problem is not the programmer himself, but the companies that hire interns to do senior jobs. It's all about money! Regards, Ricardo. On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Pinnacle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ricardo, My responses below. Regards, Tom Conley - Original Message - From: Ricardo Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide... So, you really think that, if one is not north american, a US citzen, then he/she has less skills?? I'm limiting my discussion to offshoring firms, about 99.99% of which are based in India. Systems Programming cannot be taught in a classroom. For every ounce of knowledge, you need a pound of experience. But people with those pounds of experience don't charge $5-10/hr. They charge more like $75-125/hr, or more. IBM's standard bill rate for systems programming in the US is upwards of $250/hr, but their skills matrix puts a maximum of about $60 in the system programmer's pocket. IBM here is becoming our worst enemy. They decry the lack of mainframe skills on the one hand, then their puchasing department drives people out of the marketplace with their ridiculous skill matrix pricing. I'm not sure of the standard of living in Brazil, but I'd bet that sysprogs there make more than $5-10/hr. I think of it as a xenophobic problem. I'm not xenophobic. I am perturbed with the fiction that $10/hr talent with no experience and a special H1B visa provides better value. Actually, I realy think that, because of all the problems we have here in Brazil, where I live (I can't comment about India, as I don't know) such as lack of formal training or base education, we learned to study by ourselves and for what I see here people are very competent. I have been there in the US and talk to a friend of mine who lives there see that the problem there is a bad circle: companies start to out source because people stop studing IT, and people stop studing IT because of the outsourcing. People didn't stop studying IT, their management stopped encouraging their education. Companies have cut back on training, college tuition reimbursements, etc. Pressure to do the day to day job leaves no time to try something new. God help you if you try something new and it goes wrong. So most fulltime employees stick to what they know. That keeps them employed and keeps food on the table. I am not saying that we are better... I just want to say that it's different. Ricardo. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
I think there is IT training in colleges here in the USA. Just not Mainframe courses. Most universities here believe that the OPEN SYSTEMS is the only areas to teach. I took a JAVA and C++ college class. I asked if they would offer some mainframe languages like Assembler and COBOL and PL/I. I got laughed at. It seems they no longer understand the significance of the mainframe envionment. Which really is good. When I retire I hope to make 110+/hr as a contractor from HOME working on all the areas that the university is neglecting here. Lizette Tom, when I said people stopped studding IT I mean people in college. My friend himself was an IT Student, but decides to go to an management school after he realized companies in the US are sending their IT programming to other countries. I don't think it's only money, IT companies have no choice as senior programmers start quitting work and there is nobody to put in their places. That's the circle. Sorry to say it was a xenophobic problem, but that sounds like it was. I agree that a large number of the firms here (again I don't know India) gets first-year college students to put in positions where it was needed to put a senior programmer, and that is why we're cheaper, at least at first sight. After a while, as this student gets experience programs will be better, but that will only happens when the contractor has invested so much money that he doesn't want to came back and start all over again. But it's to late. So the problem is not the programmer himself, but the companies that hire interns to do senior jobs. It's all about money! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:38:36 -0500, Bobbie Justice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... maybe he read a book and declared himself an expert. Or perhaps his management said Be an expert! so he found a book. ... On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:42:01 EDT, IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... The company that is doing this will probably blame the inevitable debacle on IBM. Perhaps, but I bet it's going ot be blamed on the poor quality of turn-over received from the original company. Ya just can't trust those people whose jobs are being outsourced. They have attitude problems. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
In a message dated 6/12/2008 2:30:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: when I said people stopped studding IT I mean people in college. My friend himself was an IT Student, but decides to go to an management school after he realized companies in the US are sending their IT programming to other countries. Seems like we could apply simple metrics. 1)More IT scholarships 2)1 H1B = 1 scholarship + 1 529 in related field 3)Publish Higher ed use of z/VM 4)Discount software to long time users. Give incentives to switch. **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of (IBM Mainframe Discussion List) In a message dated 6/12/2008 12:30:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, howard.brazee writes: But the lesser skilled work will be outsourced again to those who need the money enough to be willing to work for less Just as manufacturing jobs are migrating from one outsourced country to another when the first location's cost of production rises too high. Ralph Nader calls this the race to the bottom. Perhaps ultimately everything on earth will be made in Haiti or Botswana. Doubtful (they don't have the physical space). But when a worldwide equilibrium in costs of production is reached (probably in four or five generations), everything will once again be made locally. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Chase, John wrote: Doubtful (they don't have the physical space). But when a worldwide equilibrium in costs of production is reached (probably in four or five generations), everything will once again be made locally. This is a totally different animal than outsourcing an IT job that can be performed remotely. In the case of manufacturing, the rising costs of transportation fuels are already beginning to change things. If transportation costs get high enough, manufactured items will again be made locally (or very close by) by those skilled enough to produce them. http://www.itbusinessedge.com/blogs/sts/?p=389 -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On 12 Jun 2008 13:17:41 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Edward Jaffe) wrote: This is a totally different animal than outsourcing an IT job that can be performed remotely. In the case of manufacturing, the rising costs of transportation fuels are already beginning to change things. If transportation costs get high enough, manufactured items will again be made locally (or very close by) by those skilled enough to produce them. They are making super-greenhouses in the U.K. But the price of fuel won't make much difference in the cost of shipping data. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On 12 Jun 2008 08:00:50 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: It seems that more and more, systems programmers either find some old-timer to mentor them or they have to shoehorn themselves into positions to learn their jobs on their own. Companies don't want to train them. Same thing with CoBOL or PL/I programmers. So how does that differ from how a good number of use learned the job. I was fortunate in being sent to Share and quite a few IBM courses. rest snipped -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
On 12 Jun 2008 10:10:27 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pinnacle) wrote: The OP clearly shows that people overseas are not as skilled (even more skilled? That's a joke). The OP clearly shows that the person replacing him is not as skilled as he should be. But even that person might be smart enough not to generalize from one data point. I can find nothing in the original post that denigrates an entire country's people. At one time when we sysprogs were overworked, a consultant was brought in to update an SMF exit. He made numerous elementary mistakes. After about 2 weeks, I finally got time and updated the program in about 6 hours. During those two weeks, the consultant was working on it constantly and had had at least 5 IPLs to test his changes. We ended up not paying him for his time. He was American. Should we now generalize about the skill levels of Americans? -- I cannot receive mail at the address this was sent from. To reply directly, send to ar23hur at intergate dot com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Arthur T. wrote: At one time when we sysprogs were overworked, a consultant was brought in to update an SMF exit. He made numerous elementary mistakes. After about 2 weeks, I finally got time and updated the program in about 6 hours. During those two weeks, the consultant was working on it constantly and had had at least 5 IPLs to test his changes. We ended up not paying him for his time. He was American. Should we now generalize about the skill levels of Americans? Definitely! g Almost ten years ago I got a short term consulting gig at a small ISV. From what I gathered, they had continually downsized, and lost most of their experienced technical staff. I was asked to clean up their flagship product that kept getting 0C4s and other nifties. They had hired temporary programmers (Americans) a year earlier to make some improvements, and got a little more than they bargained for - I found things like MVC byte,C'A' and other sins that showed complete incompetence, as well as a lack of testing. I wound up writing an assembler exit to flag low storage references (address fields in the listing, not by register content), excepting LA and such, and found more than a dozen more. The original program was written in the seventies (early VTAM user), and was very elegant, except for one teensy, tiny flaw - all exits used the same save area, and the first time I did some hard testing managed to trigger two exits concurrently. It really made me wonder how this had been working in production for twenty-odd years. So I consider the current state of affairs a management problem related to hiring practices and pay policies (at one job I had an interim boss who decided to hire a systems programmer without bothering to talk to me. The guy knew JCL well, because his prior 'systems' job consisted of fixing JCL errors in production jobs. His knowledge of computer languages extended to knowing their names). Over the years I've had colleagues from every continent except Antarctica, and found no difference in competence, If anything, on average, the foreigners were better educated. Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, VT -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
snip--- The OP clearly shows that the person replacing him is not as skilled as he should be. But even that person might be smart enough not to generalize from one data point. I can find nothing in the original post that denigrates an entire country's people. At one time when we sysprogs were overworked, a consultant was brought in to update an SMF exit. He made numerous elementary mistakes. After about 2 weeks, I finally got time and updated the program in about 6 hours. During those two weeks, the consultant was working on it constantly and had had at least 5 IPLs to test his changes. We ended up not paying him for his time. He was American. Should we now generalize about the skill levels of Americans? ---unsnip--- This discussion demonstrates another aspect of this issue that hasn't been mentioned yet. I refer to the skill set of the interviewer. In the original example that started this discussion, it was painfully obvious that the interviewee was NOT qualified to claim the title that he did. But this isn't always true. I've interviewed a few people, of various ethnic backgrounds, that weren't qualified to pass out towels in the Men's Room. But I've also met others, again of various ethnic backgrounds, who were absolutely brilliant. And a great many in between. This guy from the OP sounds about as sharp as a beach ball, but to generalize based on that would be a big mistake. On the other hand, if this is an example of the expertise in that particular outsourcer, then we're about to see a disaster unfold and it's going to be a very painful sight. My sympathies to Gary's friend; perhaps he can get re-hired to help untangle the disaster, once senior management realizes how bad it's going to be. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
I agree whole heartily with Lizette on the state of education. But it has been that way for decades now. I can remember over 30+ years ago at my university taking a database class. I was a part-time tape-ape at the time, and knew that we used IMS as our database. So I asked the prof what type of database IMS was; his response was something like IMS is IBM's production database, we don't care about what is in use in the real world. We are concerned about the theory behind various database designs. Right there I knew that computer science courses had nothing to do with the real world. I hope that IBM's big new push into education pays off. From what I understand community colleges have been receiving it very well and with open arms; and big 4-year say we are interested in future theory, not practical day-to-day operations. The other item I wanted to comment on was the pay-scale issue. CA tried the outsourcing to India, which failed for the MF applications big-time. Now, CA is doing new MF hiring in Prague AND in Plano (near Dallas) and Lisle (near Chicago). What CA has found (not sure why it took so many years) was that wage-inflation on the coasts made US wage's seem inflated over-all. But when you just looked at wages in the middle section; and subtracted all the extra costs of international hires (more communication problems; more directly management requirements; more time to go back-and-forth to get it done correctly) they were not that different. I remember back 15 years ago as a manager at CA, I was responsible for developers in both California and Texas. The wage difference was HUGE (more then 25%). The California people were good, but not any better then the Texas people; it was simply a huge wage-inflation because of the higher cost-of-living. Now, I am not complaining that the fruits and nuts got more (they needed it because of their cost-of-living); but if more companies looked at moving their data centers to middle of the country they would cut-down on the DP costs simply on wages. Anyway, my 2-cents Russell Witt -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Outsourcing dilemma or debacle, you decide...
Tom, Thanks. I'm glad to see you regard us with such high esteem. I like it when people say exactly what they mean. Ron people overseas are not as skilled (even more skilled? That's a joke). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
