[Langcom] Re: Haryanvi - script issues

[Michael Everson]

What “script” are you talking about?Michael Eversonhttp://evertype.comOn 14 Aug 2023, at 21:27, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:A script may exist but when it is in complete, does it serve its purpose? Op ma 14 aug. 2023 21:29 schreef MF-Warburg :The script exists and is being used.Gerard Meijssen  schrieb am Mo., 14. Aug. 2023, 20:47:Hoi,You can not really write a script when it is incomplete. Script conversion can come in several ways including dictionary based but it starts with the _expression_ of the writing and that means script.Thanks,     GerardMOn Mon, 14 Aug 2023 at 18:03, MF-Warburg  wrote:I think the issue here is not with fonts or Unicode, but with the fact that the language is written in two different scripts, which don't have (and maybe can't have) a script converter between them.Am So., 6. Aug. 2023 um 09:29 Uhr schrieb Gerard Meijssen :Hoi,In the past the Wikimedia Foundation paid for the development of characters that became part of Unicode. Missing characters in an existing characterser are "easy. More complicated is to populate fonts withe these added characters..At the time the design of a non-Unicode font was used with permission.thanks,     GerardOn Sat, 5 Aug 2023 at 16:22, Mark Williamson  wrote:It's actually possible to automatically convert between Devanagari and Urdu scripts, but it would require quite a lot of work. It's not a trivial task with straightforward character-to-character correspondences like Serbian, but it is possible and it has been done (not within Wikimedia, but by researchers in India)On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 4:21 AM MF-Warburg  wrote:Please see the comment signed Ameen Akbar at .There seems to be only one ISO code but two (incompatible?) writing systems. Thoughts?
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Re: [Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

I can’t do it. I don’t know anyone who can apart from maybe people here. I 
doubt they have anyone making bots. So can we take charge of this?

Michael

> On 30 Aug 2020, at 19:08, James Heilman  wrote:
> 
> The scots community can make a template that says the article needs review. 
> Then have a bot add that template to all articles in article space. As 
> articles are removed people can simply remove the template. One can also make 
> a template to indicate that an article has passed review. 
> 
> You will just need to find a bot operator. Not sure if you have any within 
> the Scots community.
> 
> James
> 
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 11:58 AM Michael Everson  wrote:
> I would like a response from members. Michael Dempster informs me:
> 
> “Hey, the ediathon seems to be going well.  However an editor has said to the 
> community they don't want to edit any more because there's "a likelihood that 
> a whole lot of articles will be deleted" is that still the case, do you know?”
> 
> Well, I don’t know, but we should NOT delete any of the articles.
> 
> What we NEED to do is make some sort of indicator on the site so that people 
> know that an article has been reviewed, edited, and approved. 
> 
> How can we (1) inform the editors and (2) make this happen?
> 
> Thanks,
> Michael Everson 
> 
> > On 28 Aug 2020, at 11:04, Michael Everson  wrote:
> > 
> > In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I received 
> > this from Michael Dempster.
> > 
> >> On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster  
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language Centre.
> >> 
> >> Michael
> >> 
> >> On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson  wrote:
> >> I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre 
> >> here about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been 
> >> inundated with calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would 
> >> like to recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can 
> >> discuss approaches to the issue.
> >> 
> >> Michael
> >> -- 
> >> Dr Michael Dempster
> >> Director
> >> Scots Language Centre
> >> A K Bell Library
> >> York Place
> >> Perth PH2 8EP
> >> 
> >> Tel: 01738 440199 
> >> 
> >> m.demps...@scotslanguage.com
> >> 
> >> www.scotslanguage.com
> >> 
> >> Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No. 2451R(S). 
> >> Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
> > 
> > 
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Re: [Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

I would like a response from members. Michael Dempster informs me:

“Hey, the ediathon seems to be going well.  However an editor has said to the 
community they don't want to edit any more because there's "a likelihood that a 
whole lot of articles will be deleted" is that still the case, do you know?”

Well, I don’t know, but we should NOT delete any of the articles.

What we NEED to do is make some sort of indicator on the site so that people 
know that an article has been reviewed, edited, and approved. 

How can we (1) inform the editors and (2) make this happen?

Thanks,
Michael Everson 

> On 28 Aug 2020, at 11:04, Michael Everson  wrote:
> 
> In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I received 
> this from Michael Dempster.
> 
>> On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language Centre.
>> 
>> Michael
>> 
>> On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson  wrote:
>> I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here 
>> about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with 
>> calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to 
>> recommend that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss 
>> approaches to the issue.
>> 
>> Michael
>> -- 
>> Dr Michael Dempster
>> Director
>> Scots Language Centre
>> A K Bell Library
>> York Place
>> Perth PH2 8EP
>> 
>> Tel: 01738 440199 
>> 
>> m.demps...@scotslanguage.com
>> 
>> www.scotslanguage.com
>> 
>> Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No. 2451R(S). 
>> Scottish Charity No. SCO21747
> 
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

In case a non-member’s e-mail is not distributed to the group, I received this 
from Michael Dempster.

> On 28 Aug 2020, at 07:21, Michael Dempster  
> wrote:
> 
> Thank you, I'm very happy to advise on behalf of the Scots Language Centre.
> 
> Michael
> 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 18:36, Michael Everson  wrote:
> I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here 
> about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with 
> calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend 
> that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to 
> the issue.
> 
> Michael
> -- 
> Dr Michael Dempster
> Director
> Scots Language Centre
> A K Bell Library
> York Place
> Perth PH2 8EP
> 
> Tel: 01738 440199 
> 
> m.demps...@scotslanguage.com
> 
> www.scotslanguage.com
> 
> Registered in Scotland as an Industrial & Provident Society No. 2451R(S). 
> Scottish Charity No. SCO21747


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Re: [Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

Scots is not a “language construct”. Whatever you mean by that.

Scots speakers are interested in re-writing the articles. They are requesting a 
mechanism for indicating that pages have been edited and corrected. Including a 
Special Page that lists uncorrected articles. 

These resources should be supplied. I don’t want to have to keep asking. Surely 
this is one of our jobs. 

Michael

> On 27 Aug 2020, at 20:57, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> I am in two minds about this one. Yes, the sco.wikipedia is a fiasco. 
> However, when we concentrate on what is bad, there will be people who will 
> obsess with using this mechanism on other  Wikipedias. The Cebuano Wikipedia 
> comes to mind, Waray-Waray.
> 
> Given language constructs, with a little bit of luck we can replace languages 
> structures that are wrong. We can ask the people of Abstract Wikipedia to 
> consider this. For them it is an exercise that is relatively easy (only one 
> language other than English) and it solves an actual problem. How do you like 
> this suggestion?
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
> On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 at 20:33, Michael Everson  wrote:
> On the Scots Language Forum on Wikipedia the following was said:
> 
> One reads that a group of volunteers will endeavor to correct the Scots 
> Wikipedia pages.
> Might it be a good idea if they were to flag the pages they have corrected, 
> or judged to be devoid of unreliable language, so visitors know whether a 
> page can be trusted or not ?
> 
> A response was made:
> 
> We certainly need a process for this. I think Wikipedia can do a lot of 
> flagging with automatic bots.
> 
> There are two parties to this. One is WikiMedia and the various volunteer 
> admins, who have the tools and technical knowledge to deal with critical 
> incidents like this. The other is the Scots language 'community'. The online 
> discussion yesterday was mostly among the former, but they were clearly 
> looking for guidance from the latter on what to do
> 
> ==
> 
> Can this be facilitated?
> 
> Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

On the Scots Language Forum on Wikipedia the following was said:

One reads that a group of volunteers will endeavor to correct the Scots 
Wikipedia pages.
Might it be a good idea if they were to flag the pages they have corrected, or 
judged to be devoid of unreliable language, so visitors know whether a page can 
be trusted or not ?

A response was made:

We certainly need a process for this. I think Wikipedia can do a lot of 
flagging with automatic bots.

There are two parties to this. One is WikiMedia and the various volunteer 
admins, who have the tools and technical knowledge to deal with critical 
incidents like this. The other is the Scots language 'community'. The online 
discussion yesterday was mostly among the former, but they were clearly looking 
for guidance from the latter on what to do

==

Can this be facilitated?

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

We do not want the closure of the Wiki. What would be helpful would be a means 
for editors to know what articles have been corrected. 

> On 26 Aug 2020, at 18:42, MF-Warburg  wrote:
> 
> To be honest I don't think there is anything to do for us, as the langcom, at 
> the moment. Discussions are underway on Meta and people have started to 
> appear to clean up the wiki: 
> <https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges>. I'd much prefer to 
> let those editors figure out what they want to do and if they eventually want 
> something from us (i.e. the closure of the wiki).
> 
> Am Mi., 26. Aug. 2020 um 19:36 Uhr schrieb Michael Everson 
> :
> I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here 
> about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with 
> calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend 
> that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to 
> the issue.
> 
> Michael


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[Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

I have been talking with Michael Dempster of the Scots Language Centre here 
about this matter. He is well aware of the issue and has been inundated with 
calls for radio interviews even from NPR in the US. I would like to recommend 
that he be added to this mailing list so that we can discuss approaches to the 
issue.

Michael
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[Langcom] Scots

[Michael Everson]

I recommend that we add some sort of header to all of the pages on the Scots 
Wiki so that when the articles are reviewed and edited by someone whose Scots 
is better, the review can be indicated. A Special Page for reviewed and 
unreviewed pages could be added so that people can choose pages to review. 

Michael Everson 
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Re: [Langcom] Scotish

[Michael Everson]

Please see this:

https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uiser_collogue:AmaryllisGardener#STATEMENT

“Honestly, I don't mind if you revert all of my edits, delete my articles, and 
ban me from the wiki for good. I've already found out that my "contributions" 
have angered countless people, and to me that's all the devastation I can be 
given, after years of my thinking I was doing good (and yes, obsessively 
editing). I was only a 12-year-old kid when I started, and sometimes when you 
start something young, you can't see that the habit you've developed is 
unhealthy and unhelpful as you get older. I don't care about defending myself, 
I only want to stop being harassed on my social medias (and to stop my other 
friends who have nothing to do with the wiki from being harassed as well). 
Whether peace can be achieved by scowiki being kept like it is or extensively 
reformed to wipe my influence from it makes no difference to me now that I know 
that I've done no good anyway. --AmaryllisGardener talk 21:57, 25 August 2020 
(UTC)"

Also it is not “Scotish” or “Scottish” but “Scots”. 

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Eligibility of Prussian Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

It’s as valid as Cornish!

> On 12 Nov 2019, at 14:37, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> Please see 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussian_2.
> 
> Prussian was considered to have gone extinct in the 18th century, and for a 
> while was listed in ISO 639-3 as "extinct". Indeed, that was the situation 
> when the project was first proposed in 2007.  However, in 2009, its listing 
> in ISO was changed from "extinct" to "living", due to a robust effort to 
> revive the language. Indeed, the Wikipedia article suggests that there are 
> now a few children who are natively bilingual. 
> 
> The revival effort is not based on this Wikipedia. The test project has been 
> moderately active over the years, but certainly not at a level that would 
> start us contemplating approval. But to me this is further evidence that the 
> revival is real and legitimate on its own, and not the very reason for a 
> Prussian Wikipedia project.
> 
> One person commenting on the request page suggests that prg should not be the 
> language code for the revival. Still, the fact that the ISO listing was 
> changed to "living" suggests that at least for now, the standards authority 
> is willing to accept that, so we should be, too.
> 
> Accordingly, I recommend that this project be marked "eligible".
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
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Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

They’re now charging something like 400 a year.

> On 5 Nov 2019, at 15:21, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> Ethnologue does not cover artificial, historical or ancient languages—only 
> living and extinct languages.  "Extinct" in this setting is the ISO 639–3 
> sense: gone extinct in the last few centuries.
> 
> Speaking of Ethnologue, I can't get three page views a month any more, even 
> wiping cookies. What's up with that? Can anyone help us get some limited 
> access?
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> 
> From: Langcom  on behalf of Amir E. 
> Aharoni 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 7:24 AM
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee 
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia
> 
> Well... As it was with Lingua Franca Nova: I'm somewhat skeptical about the 
> usefulness of this project and about the future activity once the founders 
> lose interest, but I'm not really opposed to it.
> 
> I was also a bit skeptical about the validity of the code, because it doesn't 
> appear on Ethnologue. But it does appear at https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/avk 
> , so I guess it's OK.
> 
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> 
> 
> ‫בתאריך יום ג׳, 5 בנוב׳ 2019 ב-14:12 מאת ‪Jon Harald Søby‬‏ 
> <‪jhs...@gmail.com‬‏>:‬
> Any other comments other than Michael's repeated approvals? ;-)
> 
> If not, we can move forward on this, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of at 
> least a couple more committee members.
> 
> tir. 1. okt. 2019 kl. 15:28 skrev Michael Everson :
> There seems to be something wrong with my mail server.
> 
>> On 30 Sep 2019, at 20:33, MF-Warburg  wrote:
>> 
>> Michael, are you ok?
>> 
>> Michael Everson  schrieb am Mo., 30. Sep. 2019, 21:24:
>> I support approval.
>> 
>>> On 26 Sep 2019, at 22:47, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Kotava Wikipedia. Kotava is a conlang 
>>> created in 1978, mainly known in French-speaking countries (according to 
>>> the English Wikipedia). They have a very active test wiki in Incubator, 
>>> with more than 3,000 articles, which makes it bigger than the Novial 
>>> Wikipedia (which we approved in 2008) and about the same size as the Lingua 
>>> Franca Nova (LFN) Wikipedia (which we approved in 2017). There are several 
>>> active users, and sustained activity for many months.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have reasons for why we should not approve this project?
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> mvh
>>> Jon Harald Søby
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>> 
>> 
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> 
> -- 
> mvh
> Jon Harald Søby
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Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

There seems to be something wrong with my mail server.

> On 30 Sep 2019, at 20:33, MF-Warburg  wrote:
> 
> Michael, are you ok?
> 
> Michael Everson  schrieb am Mo., 30. Sep. 2019, 21:24:
> I support approval.
> 
> > On 26 Sep 2019, at 22:47, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Kotava Wikipedia. Kotava is a conlang 
> > created in 1978, mainly known in French-speaking countries (according to 
> > the English Wikipedia). They have a very active test wiki in Incubator, 
> > with more than 3,000 articles, which makes it bigger than the Novial 
> > Wikipedia (which we approved in 2008) and about the same size as the Lingua 
> > Franca Nova (LFN) Wikipedia (which we approved in 2017). There are several 
> > active users, and sustained activity for many months.
> > 
> > Does anyone have reasons for why we should not approve this project?
> > 
> > -- 
> > mvh
> > Jon Harald Søby
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Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

I support approval.

> On 26 Sep 2019, at 22:47, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Kotava Wikipedia. Kotava is a conlang 
> created in 1978, mainly known in French-speaking countries (according to the 
> English Wikipedia). They have a very active test wiki in Incubator, with more 
> than 3,000 articles, which makes it bigger than the Novial Wikipedia (which 
> we approved in 2008) and about the same size as the Lingua Franca Nova (LFN) 
> Wikipedia (which we approved in 2017). There are several active users, and 
> sustained activity for many months.
> 
> Does anyone have reasons for why we should not approve this project?
> 
> -- 
> mvh
> Jon Harald Søby
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Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

I support approval.On 26 Sep 2019, at 22:47, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:Hi all,I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Kotava Wikipedia. Kotava is a conlang created in 1978, mainly known in French-speaking countries (according to the English Wikipedia). They have a very active test wiki in Incubator, with more than 3,000 articles, which makes it bigger than the Novial Wikipedia (which we approved in 2008) and about the same size as the Lingua Franca Nova (LFN) Wikipedia (which we approved in 2017). There are several active users, and sustained activity for many months.Does anyone have reasons for why we should not approve this project?-- mvhJon Harald Søby___Langcom mailing listLangcom@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
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Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

I support approval.

> On 26 Sep 2019, at 22:47, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Kotava Wikipedia. Kotava is a conlang 
> created in 1978, mainly known in French-speaking countries (according to the 
> English Wikipedia). They have a very active test wiki in Incubator, with more 
> than 3,000 articles, which makes it bigger than the Novial Wikipedia (which 
> we approved in 2008) and about the same size as the Lingua Franca Nova (LFN) 
> Wikipedia (which we approved in 2017). There are several active users, and 
> sustained activity for many months.
> 
> Does anyone have reasons for why we should not approve this project?
> 
> -- 
> mvh
> Jon Harald Søby
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Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

I support approval.

> On 26 Sep 2019, at 22:47, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Kotava Wikipedia. Kotava is a conlang 
> created in 1978, mainly known in French-speaking countries (according to the 
> English Wikipedia). They have a very active test wiki in Incubator, with more 
> than 3,000 articles, which makes it bigger than the Novial Wikipedia (which 
> we approved in 2008) and about the same size as the Lingua Franca Nova (LFN) 
> Wikipedia (which we approved in 2017). There are several active users, and 
> sustained activity for many months.
> 
> Does anyone have reasons for why we should not approve this project?
> 
> -- 
> mvh
> Jon Harald Søby
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Re: [Langcom] Kotava Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

I support approval.

> On 26 Sep 2019, at 22:47, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Kotava Wikipedia. Kotava is a conlang 
> created in 1978, mainly known in French-speaking countries (according to the 
> English Wikipedia). They have a very active test wiki in Incubator, with more 
> than 3,000 articles, which makes it bigger than the Novial Wikipedia (which 
> we approved in 2008) and about the same size as the Lingua Franca Nova (LFN) 
> Wikipedia (which we approved in 2017). There are several active users, and 
> sustained activity for many months.
> 
> Does anyone have reasons for why we should not approve this project?
> 
> -- 
> mvh
> Jon Harald Søby
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Re: [Langcom] [OT] Are you going to Wikimania? Submit session proposals until June 9th!

[Michael Everson]

I am in Birmingham at the Tolkien Society conference 6-12 August and in Ghent 
for Blissymbols 25-31 August so it would not be convenient really to go to 
Stockholm this year anyway. 

> On 31 May 2019, at 07:56, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> Michael you may get funding to come. I have asked for it as well .. am 
> preparing a presentation..
> Thanks,
>   GerardM


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Re: [Langcom] [OT] Are you going to Wikimania? Submit session proposals until June 9th!

[Michael Everson]

I don’t have funding for such activities.

Michael

> On 29 May 2019, at 14:55, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
> 
> Hello, I just sent this message to the general Wikimedia language mailing 
> list. However, I wanted to send it here too because there are probably 
> subscribers to this list (both committee members and observers) who don't 
> follow the other list. I hope you don't mind the disturbance. :-)
> 
> -- Forwarded message -
> Fra: Jon Harald Søby 
> Date: ons. 29. mai 2019 kl. 15:46
> Subject: Are you going to Wikimania? Submit session proposals until June 9th!
> To: Languages discussion and Wikimedia Indigenous Languages 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am one of the co-leaders of the Language space for this year's Wikimania in 
> Stockholm. There are many different "spaces" (think "tracks", but a bit 
> wider) this year, and one of them is the language space. Unfortunately, there 
> have not been too many proposed sessions for it yet (that actually goes for 
> many of the spaces), so I would like to invite anyone who is planning to 
> attend Wikimania and has something cool and language-related to talk about to 
> submit a session proposal for our space (or any other space you might be 
> interested in).
> 
> A session doesn't have to be a presentation – the aim this year is to make 
> Wikimania a more interative experience than it has been previously. So the 
> format of a session is very open – you could hold workshops to e.g. implement 
> cool ideas from your language's community in other languages, or hold a panel 
> or roundtable discussion. We could even have a language quiz, just something 
> relaxing and fun. So if you have any ideas that you would be able to, please 
> submit a proposal. The deadline was just today extended until June 9th (it 
> was originally in 2 days), but sooner is better. :-)
> 
> You can submit proposals for the language space in the link above, or check 
> out the other spaces here.
> 
> Thank you, and see you (hopefully) in Stockholm!
> 
> -- 
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Re: [Langcom] Wikisource Literary Chinese

[Michael Everson]

I agree with Steven's recommendation.


> On 24 Apr 2019, at 17:09, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> There are still different opinions on this: Gerard and Michael would reject 
> the proposal, MF-W would accept it as eligible. Let me outline points of 
> agreement first, then points of disagreement. Then I'd like to propose a next 
> step, and see what people think.
> 
> Agreement:  
>   • Even MF-W agrees that, at least in the short-to-mid-term, nobody is 
> talking about pulling apart the current zhwikisource, and spinning the lzh 
> content into a new project. 
>   • (I think) All agree that lzh served a role in East Asia similar to 
> the role of Latin in Europe. Accordingly, policy allows a separate lzh 
> project and doesn't demand that lzh content be moved into a zh project. 
> Disagreement:
>   • If we mark this as "eligible", does that mean that when the test on 
> Multilingual Wikisource becomes approvable (if ever), we categorically MUST 
> move all the lzh content from zhwikisource into the new project? Or can lzh 
> content exist in both places?
>   • (I think) Just because policy allows a separate lzh project doesn't 
> mean it requires one; we can still require all lzh content to be put into the 
> zh project.
>   • If #2 is true, though, there is still a concern that the zh 
> project will not meet the needs of non-Mandarin speakers with respect to lzh 
> content. 
> The only reason we really even have a problem is the bullet point under 
> "Disagreement #2". If not for that, we could reject the language request 
> without a problem. And I'm convinced that at present, that's more of a 
> theoretical issue being put out by the proponents of an lzh Wikisource than 
> it is a practical problem people are having right now. Still, we can't 
> entirely discount it.
> 
> In the short run, I think we could keep everyone happy by not touching 
> current lzh content on zhwikisource, while allowing other lzh content to be 
> created on oldwikisource. (There is precedent for allowing content on 
> oldwikisource in parallel to content in a separate Wikisource, though in the 
> main case I think of, Polish, that's done for copyright reasons. And we'd 
> want to encourage some ground rules about duplication of documents, since 
> that's not a concern in the Polish case.) Even if we agree to that, though, 
> the question remains: How do we resolve the status of the language request? 
> So here's how I see all the possible options playing out:
>   • Eligible.  This does mean that at some point, if the lzh test becomes 
> approvable, we agree it can be approved. I'm OK with this option if the 
> answer to "disagreement #1" is that we are not necessarily committing that 
> all lzh content would have to be moved to an lzh Wikisource. We can kick the 
> can down the road, and also don't have to commit that lzh content will not be 
> moved, either. If we do this, I would make it clear on eligibility that we 
> are not committing to what that means for the future for the current lzh 
> content of zhwikisource.
>   • Place on hold. (option 1) We can see if enough contributors actually 
> come to work on lzh content on oldwikisource to make that viable, or whether 
> by a year from now it becomes a non-issue. (option 2) It goes on hold because 
> we decide that we're just not going to decide now, and we'll revisit it if 
> and when that's appropriate.
>   • Reject.  This doesn't actually mean we don't allow lzh content to 
> stay on oldwikisource. After all, there are a number of projects in ancient 
> languages that have been rejected by LangCom but where tests still exist on 
> Incubator because the rules for Incubator are less strict than the rules for 
> subdomain project eligibility/approval. Since the rules for oldwikisource are 
> even less strict than the rules for Incubator, the lzh "test" could stay on 
> oldwikisource. But this option basically says that this content will always 
> stay on oldwikisource.
> My recommendation
>   • I think we need to leave the content of zhwikisource alone now, but 
> allow additional lzh content on oldwikisource, with rules against duplication.
>   • By process of elimination, I'd recommend "placing on hold" for now. I 
> really don't see consensus coalescing here.  Also, I think there's a good 
> enough chance that this test never goes anywhere that we may as well wait to 
> see what happens before committing to a decision.  (And, to tell the truth, 
> in most cases like this, where there is little actual activity in the test, 
> that's what we actually usually do until there is proof of activity.)
>   • If you're not willing to do that, I would go for "eligible" 
> IF AND ONLY IF that doesn't mean we're committing to the future of any 
> existing content either way. In principle, this lzh ought to be eligible, and 
> there's nothing wrong with saying so. But if we think that "eligible" 
> automatically means that 

Re: [Langcom] Unicode requirement

[Michael Everson]

On 15 Apr 2019, at 06:28, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> The WMF does have the technology to provide the font from its servers. It is 
> not the case that characters would not show properly.

If something is worth doing, it is worth doing right. If a language is worthy 
of a Wikipedia, its characters are worth encoding.

I will vehemently oppose any Wikipedia which has to use the PUA to display text.

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Re: [Langcom] Unicode requirement

[Michael Everson]

It isn’t a question of “Unicode font”; it’s a question of “Unicode encoding”. A 
font can always be made but an encoding is essential.

> On 15 Apr 2019, at 14:38, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> To get back to the original question, I'd echo what MF-Warburg said: I've 
> never seen an actual written requirement for this. 
> 
> That said, I was (finally) about to post the proposed modifications to LPP 
> this week. I could add either a requirement or an advisory statement on this 
> subject. (Advisory statement would say something to the effect of "If no 
> Unicode font exists for the script your language is written in, it may be 
> technically difficult for the Wikimedia servers to serve the project 
> reliably.") Thoughts?
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Unicode requirement

[Michael Everson]

On 14 Apr 2019, at 18:28, MF-Warburg  wrote:
> 
> For all I know, it is only a de facto matter.

It would not be good for a language to have an encyclopaedia in PUA characters, 
and their browsers would perpetually be substituting CJK characters encoded in 
that space too.

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Re: [Langcom] Unicode requirement

[Michael Everson]

On 14 Apr 2019, at 17:58, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Unicode has funding drives where they ask the PUBLIC to support one 
> character.. Why not have the WMF fund the missing characters in scripts we 
> need for our projects?

I’ve suggested this for years. At the first Hackathon I attended in Berlin, for 
example. 

It’s not as though you guys don’t know some sort of expert.

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Unicode requirement

[Michael Everson]

On 14 Apr 2019, at 17:49, Amir E. Aharoni  wrote:
> 
> I'm not talking a missing font, even though this would be a problem, too. I'm 
> talking about scripts that aren't encoded at all, for example the Zaghawa 
> alphabet.

We call that Beria. It’s not encoded. If WM needs it encoded, WM should help 
make that happen. 

> And I understand, of course, that it's technically problematic. What I'm 
> asking is whether there's an explicit written Language committee policy about 
> it, or is it just a de facto practical matter.

A Beria Wiki would use PUA characters and all of that data would have to be 
transcoded later. 

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Re: [Langcom] Unicode requirement

[Michael Everson]

On 14 Apr 2019, at 17:41, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> In the past the WMF has funded the creation of a Unicode font.

When? 

> Having a Unicode font is essential when we are to support it in MediaWiki. 
> Not having a fully developed font is what hinders the necessary follow up of 
> projects in SignWriting ie all the signed languages.

Actually there’s a reasonable font out there, though there’s lots of 
difficulties. I worked on the code chart font for SignWriting.

> I do agree that a language with a default script not supported in Unicode is 
> hugely problematic. 

It could only be Private Use Characters. If a script exists, it should be 
encoded. 

Encoding isn’t free.

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Re: [Langcom] Unicode requirement

[Michael Everson]

On 14 Apr 2019, at 17:35, Amir E. Aharoni  wrote:
> 
> Or is it just a de facto practicality—that it's technically difficult to host 
> a language in a script that isn't supposed in Unicode?

It is impossible to do so reliably and interchangeably.

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Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese

[Michael Everson]

Yes. 

> On 12 Mar 2019, at 13:43, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> Michael, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you favoring rejecting the 
> request? 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> 
> 
> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 14:14:15 +
> From: Michael Everson 
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
>
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary
>Chinese
> 
> Fine, then. No need to do anything. Close it.
> 
> Michael
> 
>> On 5 Mar 2019, at 18:47, Steven White  wrote:
>> 
>>   • There are currently about 150 active contributors to zhwikisource.
>>   • The current zhwikisource community is adamantly opposed to this 
>> proposal. It does not want lzh content separated out. The community sees it 
>> as a part of the continuum of language that it is curating.  
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese

[Michael Everson]

Fine, then. No need to do anything. Close it.

Michael

> On 5 Mar 2019, at 18:47, Steven White  wrote:
> 
>   • There are currently about 150 active contributors to zhwikisource.
>   • The current zhwikisource community is adamantly opposed to this 
> proposal. It does not want lzh content separated out. The community sees it 
> as a part of the continuum of language that it is curating.  
> 


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Re: [Langcom] VOTE: Approval of Hindi Wikisource

[Michael Everson]

I’m not voting yet because I don’t understand MF’s objection. OK, if three 
months  is not sufficient, did he make a suggestion as to what would be 
sufficient?

M

> On 4 Mar 2019, at 17:53, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> Strongly in favour.
> Gerard
> 
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 17:43, Steven White  wrote:
> Previous discussions have not resulted in a consensus to approve this 
> project. I am therefore putting it to a vote. 
> 
> The project meets the nominal requirements for final approval:
>   • It has about 7,500 pages.
>   • For November-February, it had over ten registered editors in each 
> month with at least ten edits. (In fact, it had at least four in each month, 
> and usually more, with at least 100 edits.)
>   • There was a period in 2016-17 when most months had at least 
> three editors with at least ten edits.
>   • March 2019 already has four editors with at least ten edits, 
> three of whom have at least 100—and it's only the fourth day of the month.
>   • These statistics do not include some pages and contributions 
> in the category "Hindi" (as opposed to the core category "हिन्दी").
>   • Of the approximately 3,700 translations in MediaWiki Core, only four 
> are untranslated.
> MF-W has two principal objections.  (If I have not stated these with 
> sufficient clarity, please correct me.)
>   • First, he sees no reason to rush—if the project stays active it will 
> be approved in due course. 
>   • I would respond to that as follows: Perhaps that is true. But 
> if anything, I see many complaints on-wiki that it takes a long time for 
> LangCom to decide on things, so that frequently people get tired of waiting 
> and move on. If a project ceases to be active in general, that's one thing. 
> But if it ceases to be active because we routinely fail to act, that's 
> another thing entirely.
>   • Related, MF-W feels that perhaps three months of activity is 
> not sufficient to prove an active community exists. If so, we should discuss 
> that separately. But based on long-standing practices here, that is the 
> advice that I give on-wiki. Until we decide on a different standard, it's 
> only fair for us to follow that one.
>   • Second, he is still not fully convinced that we need separate 
> language subdomains for Wikisource. Again, that is a subject for a different 
> discussion, but the Hindi Wikisource community has been working with the 
> current rules in mind.
> There is nothing about this vote that triggers the need for a 2/3 majority. 
> So a simple majority will decide. Please vote even if you have commented 
> previously on this subject. The vote will close seven days after this email 
> is posted—meaning at approximately 16:40 UTC on 11 March.
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
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Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese

[Michael Everson]

If we have a separate Wikisource for Literary Chinese, then obviously the 
Literary Chinese that is on the standard Chinese site should be moved to the 
new site. With links, of course.

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Re: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese

[Michael Everson]

If we have a separate Wikisource for Literary Chinese, then obviously the 
Literary Chinese that is on the standard Chinese site should be moved to the 
new site. With links, of course.

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Re: [Langcom] Proposed approval of Guianan Creole Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

On 11 Dec 2018, at 15:46, Amir E. Aharoni  wrote:
> 
> The activity definitely looks good, so I'm not opposed to approving it, but 
> more than ever I'd like to hear an expert's approval. It's the usual 
> practice, but I had particular difficulty finding any information online 
> about this language.

I read a few paragraphs. It is decipherable if you have French. Having seen a 
good many dialect Alices, I’ll say it looks quite authentic.

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] LangCom: Stepping down

[Michael Everson]

I’m just very sad to hear it.

M

> On 26 Sep 2018, at 12:06, Oliver Stegen  wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. 
> The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time.
> It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team 
> work.
> 
> Wishing you all the best for the future,
> Oliver
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia requests from 2012 (second set)

[Michael Everson]

On 21 Aug 2018, at 17:46, Phake Nick  wrote:
> 
> Wikipedia Pinyin Chinese (coded for now as cmn, Mandarin Chinese): Here's a 
> proposal that I think needs some serious discussion. Please read the 
> discussion on the linked Meta page. 
> 
> Arguments against:
>   • No separate ISO 639-3 language code

Not necessary as the IANA script code extensions can be used, so zh-Latn-pinyin

>   • It is proposed that this can be handled with a script converter, per 
> (for example) T193366.

This will never add in capital letters correctly.

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Re: [Langcom] Eligibility of Pinyin Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

Cool. If it uses tone marks.

> On 27 Aug 2018, at 15:21, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> Based on a combination of the normal policy rules and what Phake Nick 
> recently wrote us, it seems that we should probably reject this request, 
> then. I will leave this open for seven days in case anyone has an objection 
> to that.
> 
> Copying Phake Nick, with the following request: I think we should approach 
> the current content in the following way: if you would be so kind, please 
> flag any pages in the Incubator test that do not appear to have a directly 
> corresponding page in zhwiki. (You can also flag pages that obviously include 
> content that differs from the content on zhwiki.) Once this discussion 
> closes, I will then feel comfortable deleting any page you have not flagged 
> as copyvios. Then we'll get someone to ask at zhwiki's community portal to 
> see if there is any content that project would like to transcribe and import, 
> and give a couple of weeks for that. Then we'll delete the test on Incubator 
> and archive the contents to .xml.
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
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Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian - towards approval

[Michael Everson]

You will have to write to her and ask. I got the three-letter code adopted.

M

> On 1 Aug 2018, at 16:36, Amir E. Aharoni  wrote:
> 
> Well... She will most likely approve it, because she has supported this 
> project for a long time. Is she enough of a THIRD-PARTY expert?
> 
> בתאריך יום ד׳, 1 באוג׳ 2018, 18:27, מאת Michael Everson 
> ‏:
> Susanna Mkrtchyan, President of Wikimedia Armenia
> susanna.mkrtch...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> > On 31 Jul 2018, at 17:54, Amir E. Aharoni  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Can we move towards approving it? Does anybody know an Armenian language 
> > expert to verify this?
> > 
> 
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian - towards approval

[Michael Everson]

Susanna Mkrtchyan, President of Wikimedia Armenia
susanna.mkrtch...@gmail.com


> On 31 Jul 2018, at 17:54, Amir E. Aharoni  
> wrote:
> 
> Can we move towards approving it? Does anybody know an Armenian language 
> expert to verify this?
> 


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Re: [Langcom] Miscellaneous open items

[Michael Everson]

No, I’m typesetting Alice in North Russian Romani.

M

> On 27 Jul 2018, at 14:57, Steven White  wrote:
> 
>   • Michael: Have you looked into Prussian yet?
> 


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Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia requests from 2012 (first set)

[Michael Everson]

Revived Cornish has had a century of publication. I in fact have published well 
over two million words in Cornish. I’ve never looked into Revived Prussian, but 
it should be easy to determine whether it’s robust enough for use.

> On 16 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Jan van Steenbergen  wrote:
> 
> On the other hand,, the Langcom accepted Lingua Franca Nova, which has no 
> native speakers either. Yet, the project is doing very well: almost 1,400 new 
> articles since it was created, less than three months ago.
> 
> Of course, Modern Prussian is a semi-constructed language. But then, the same 
> goes for Cornish. Who are we to decide whether a language is viable or not? 
> Personally, I'd mark it eligible. If they can make the test wiki work (I 
> mean: really really work), then I see no counter-indication for a Prussian 
> Wikipedia either.
> 
> For the record, I've never understood why there cannot be a Wikipedia in 
> Ancient Greek, since there are millions of people worldwide who can write in 
> it.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jan van Steenbergen


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Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia requests from the second half of 2017 (first group)

[Michael Everson]

I have no objection to a Roman alphabet version of editors wish to create one. 

> On 6 Jun 2018, at 16:17, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> Khorasani Turkic (kmz): In theory, the language ought to be eligible. But the 
> test is written in a Romanized form, which neither Ethnologue nor the enwiki 
> article shows as an ordinary variant. Thoughts?


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Re: [Langcom] Approval for Santali Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

It lacks an Ol Chiki font. 

> On 9 Apr 2018, at 18:15, Satdeep Gill  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Santali is a language from the Indian subcontinent with around 6.3 billion 
> speakers. The request for the Wikipedi in Santali has been there for long and 
> it was a part of CIS-A2K's 2014-15 Work Plan as well. 
> 
> The volunteer community has been working actively since September 2017 and 
> all the translations have been completed as well.
> 
> In a campaign of supporting Indian language Wikipedia program coordinated by 
> Wikimedia Foundation , Google, Centre for Internet and Society (CIS), 
> Wikimedia India chapter (WMIN), two of their editors, Ramjit Tudu and Fagu 
> Baskey have received laptops for their consistent effort for Santali 
> Wikipedia 
> (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Supporting_Indian_Language_Wikipedias_Program/Support/Laptops).
>  
> 
> I even got some sample articles from a volunteer:
> 
> 1. Leonardo da Vinci
> 2. Thomas Edison
> 3. Abdul Kalam
> 
> I strongly suggest the approval of this Wikipedia as soon as possible.
> 
> Regards
> Satdeep Gill
> 
> Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
> Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
> Treasurer, Affiliations Committee
> Member, Language Committee
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Noongar Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

We are the language committee, though, and I have seen examples of text for 
this proposed Wikipedia which were in English with one or two words like “and” 
globally translated into Noongar. That’s… just not what our committee approves. 

And it’s not what the Wikipedia does. 

This doesn’t mean we don’t care about indigenous knowledge, but what I saw 
isn’t something I can support, from the point of view of linguistics.

It seems that a useful job to do might be to help the 14 associated dialects to 
converge on a standard orthography. 

Michael Everson


> On 2 Apr 2018, at 06:53, Gnangarra <gnanga...@wikimedia.org.au> wrote:
> 
> Our challenges was in knowing that there actually 14 associated dialects, 
> that they have spellings directly impacted by the european who recorded them. 
>  My process has always been not to use WMF as means of enforcing one dialect 
> over another, hence why we use a lot of english in the learning and a 
> reluctance to do further translations because each choice should come when 
> the community is doing it through consensus not at the hand of myself
> 


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Re: [Langcom] The argument for Montenegrin Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

“Deserving”.

You know what I want? I want a proper document proving that this language 
differs from the other language and in what ways. The ISO 639 RA approved a tag 
for political reasons, and it was not a unanimous vote, and it was not based on 
linguistic reasons. Having a 639 tag is a requirement. It is not the only 
requirement.

Is it too much to ask for actual linguistic data? Some measure of proof that 
the articles simply won’t be clones of one another?

I do not think it is too much to ask. 

Michael 

> On 6 Mar 2018, at 22:36, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> In response to MichaeL:
> 
> >> I. The language itself
> >> The proponents of the project have convinced me that Montenegrin is 
> >> comparable as a language standard to Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian.
> 
> >How have they convinced you? Where are the pages of paradigms? 
> 
> Understand what they have and have not convinced me. They have convinced me 
> that Montenegrin is as entitled to be called a language as Serbian or 
> Croatian—no more, and no less.  You have frequently gone back and compared 
> this situation to the very fine work you did on Western Armenian, but I don't 
> think it's at all comparable. In this case, I am merely saying that 
> Montenegrin is one of the four language standards within the macrolanguage 
> Serbo-Croatian. So: If you were asked, today—leaving aside history—whether an 
> independent Serbian Wikipedia would be eligible under current rules, what 
> would you say? If you would say no, then we're pretty much in the same 
> position. If you would say yes, then I'd like to know why Serbian qualifies, 
> but Montenegrin doesn't. 
> 
> >> Conclusion
> >> Several people have said to me that Montenegrin is more similar to other 
> >> Serbo-Croatian varieties than US and UK English are to each other; would I 
> >> insist on separate projects if they happened to have separate language 
> >> codes? No, I wouldn't. But that's because on the whole, the various 
> >> English-speaking communities around the world do manage to co-exist with 
> >> each other quite well—and tend to blunt each other's excesses a bit, too. 
> >> Sadly, that's not the case here.
> 
> >So you want us to enable their divisions?
> 
> In an ideal world, I would prefer not to. But the divisions already exist and 
> the history already exists, both in the world at large and within our WMF 
> microcosm. If you have a way to wipe out these divisions and have everyone 
> work together in harmony on a single Serbo-Croatian project, then please tell 
> me how to do that. I'm saying very clearly: I do not think it is possible. 
> (Do you think the Montenegrins are upset now? Try to close the other three 
> projects and merge them into Serbo-Croatian. Then you'll really hear 
> screaming.) Maybe none of the four projects (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, 
> Montenegrin) should really exist as independent projects. But three do, and 
> we are not going to delete them. And if those three do, the fourth must also; 
> it's no less deserving than the others.
> 
> Steven
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
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Re: [Langcom] The argument for Montenegrin Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

On 5 Mar 2018, at 23:28, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> I. The language itself
> The proponents of the project have convinced me that Montenegrin is 
> comparable as a language standard to Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian.

How have they convinced you? Where are the pages of paradigms? 

> Conclusion
> Several people have said to me that Montenegrin is more similar to other 
> Serbo-Croatian varieties than US and UK English are to each other; would I 
> insist on separate projects if they happened to have separate language codes? 
> No, I wouldn't. But that's because on the whole, the various English-speaking 
> communities around the world do manage to co-exist with each other quite 
> well—and tend to blunt each other's excesses a bit, too. Sadly, that's not 
> the case here.

So you want us to enable their divisions?

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] A letter to LangCom members

[Michael Everson]

To convince the ISO 639 RA that Western Armenian was different from Eastern 
Armenian, I did not write a series of anecdotes making claims and saying “I can 
provide info if you want”. I worked with linguistic experts and produced a 
document demonstrating clearly the genuine linguistic differences. 

No such document has ever been produced for Montenegrin.

Michael

> On 5 Mar 2018, at 23:25, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> Forwarded from on-wiki. It was posted there on Friday 2 March at about 18:30 
> UTC.
> 
> “Dear LangCom members,
> 
> I am writing to you with intention to clarify some things regarding the 
> Montenegrin Wikipedia project. I am aware that there is a lack of support for 
> this project to be allowed, and the main argument is that it is a “variety” 
> of Serbian language, claimed even by some members here. I’d like to remind 
> you that not a single serious institution claims this to be true, they all 
> list it as a member of Serbo-Croatian macro language, not a part of Serbian 
> (an important distinction).
> 
> Next, some question the use of two added letters all while claiming that they 
> can simply be replaced with sj, zj. As per Montenegrin orthography, this is 
> not true, I can explain everything in detail on the discussion page for 
> anyone interested in this, please, be free to ping me there. And on the same 
> page plenty of examples have been given to show how these letters are in fact 
> used. Also, alongside a few other users, I have shown some clear differences 
> between Ijekavian Serbian and Montenegrin (let me remind you that ~90% of 
> articles in Serbian Wikipedia are written in Ekavian standard, not 
> Ijekavian). The most important feature of Montenegrin is jekavian iotation, 
> not present in any other SC language, and this means that it is impossible to 
> follow Montenegrin standard if we were to write Serbian (or Bosnian, 
> Croatian) Wikipedia.
> 
> And let’s not forget the reason that most members here wish to ignore, but 
> sadly, due to historical and political reasons, cannot. Serious NPOV 
> violations are present on Serbian Wikipedia on literally every article 
> regarding Montenegro (and lots of other political, historical topics related 
> to other countries and people but it is not relevant to Montenegrin Wikipedia 
> right now). I have listed quite a few examples of that in discussion page and 
> even some of reverting changes that were made to regain NPOV, ping me for all 
> of that as well if you cannot find it on that cluttered page. Politics do in 
> fact play a big part in all of this, and explain why Montenegrin community 
> is, besides all the reasons listed above, also uninterested to contribute to 
> such projects, and there is a clear intention to write neutral articles 
> retaining NPOV among our community, not to create propaganda-style articles 
> that can sadly be found on all of these other projects.
> 
> Some propose using Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. The very existence of it is 
> harshly criticized amongst most of Serbian, Croatian community, as they find 
> it unnecessary and are often feeling angry at SC community merely copying 
> their articles, as claimed by some users. I won’t argue about necessity of SC 
> Wikipedia, but I felt that this is a good introduction for my main reason why 
> Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia is not a good solution for Montenegrin either.
> 
> Very large number of articles have parts directly copied from Serbian, 
> Croatian, Bosnian Wikipedias, resulting in a huge mess on articles, with a 
> single sentence being written half in Croatian, half in Serbian, which is 
> utterly confusing for the reader, switching between dialects, word forms, 
> grammar rules etc. In the discussion page I’ve shown how different a 
> Montenegrin Wikipedia article would be from an article in Serbo-Croatian to 
> Mr Amir Aharoni, please, be free to check that as well, and I can do that for 
> any article you want me to, so you have a side by side comparison, just like 
> the one I made there. A very large number of Croatian words is unheard of and 
> unknown in Montenegrin, to the point where you simply cannot understand 
> whatever you are reading about (scientific topics to the point of 
> unintelligiblity!). And Croatian is vastly dominant in Serbo-Croatian 
> Wikipedia (alongside those Ekavian Serbian parts in the middle of a single 
> sentence). You can agree that this is not a good ground for developing a 
> serious project written in Montenegrin language.
> 
> Finally, I am aware that these other projects are grandfathered, but it 
> doesn’t change the fact that they do exist, and Montenegrin community sees 
> this as very unfair (to say the least) and really feels that based an all of 
> the things listed above, and this fact that it’s the only SC variety without 
> it’s own Wikipedia, it does deserve creation of it’s own project.
> 
> Sincerely, Luka (Wiki username: Lujki).”
> 
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> 

Re: [Langcom] deleted wiki -> deleted Wikidata sitelinks?

[Michael Everson]

To specify Moldovan orthography, ro-MO-Cyrl could be used. 

M

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Re: [Langcom] Nys wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

Here is a paragraph chosen at random from the Incubator.

The Darlmoorluk (English names Australian Ringneck, or Twenty-eight Parrot from 
its page number in an old book of birds in Perth[source?]) is a native dweller 
of the Australian south-west, a particularly unique *jerda* (bird) within 
Noongar *boodjar* (country). Darlmoorluk's possess predominantly black heads, 
often with subtle blue hues around the cheeks, *wer* red *wer* yellow markings 
around the nose *wer* neck [1]. Physically, the most recognisable attribute of 
the *jerda* are the vibrant greens of the Darlmoorluk’s body.[1] Occasionally, 
there are hints of yellow *il* the jerda's breast, which is a physical 
indicator of hybridisation between Darlmoorluk *wer* other *trowan* (green 
parrots) from regions beyond Noongar *boodjar*.[1]

I have put non-English words between *asterisks*, 

This is not a Wikipedia article localized into an Australian language.

Compare Winaray https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnardius_zonarius

Compare Western Mari https://mrj.wikipedia.org/wiki/Барнард попугай

Compare Welsh https://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parot_torchfelyn_y_mal%C3%AE

> On 7 Feb 2018, at 07:08, Gnangarra  wrote:
> 
> Where are we this, its 12 months since I was first contacted by committee 
> members and told that this is ready to go I'll help get it through. In Berlin 
> I spoke with the committee they were happy with the project and requested the 
> translations the key terms to be done.  We have been translating focusing on 
> translating article content.   we have exceeded the activity criteria. 
> 
> Delaying getting to nys.wikipedia is holding back WMAU ability to further 
> engage with over 300 Indigenous language as they are all watching and waiting 
> to see what happens with one of the strongest continuous languages.   

I would not want this to serve as an example to 300 indigenous languages. 

Sorry, but this does not, so far, qualify, in my opinion. Replacing all 
examples of “and” with “wer” is not enough.

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"

[Michael Everson]

I am cc’ing two of our Armenian Wikimedia colleagues here. 

Michael

> On 31 Jan 2018, at 15:56, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> So here's what has to happen next:
> 
>   • Someone at translatewiki.net should activate the code. (Calling Amir 
> ...)
>   • The community can start working on a Wikipedia project on Incubator 
> at Wp/hyw. Remember: the rules at Incubator are less strict than the rules 
> for a final approval. In most cases of living, natural languages, as long as 
> there is a valid code, a project may remain on Incubator, even without a 
> LangCom approval. So gather a community together and start working on 
> something. Do we need to set up Armenian Wikipedia as a transwiki import 
> SOURCE to Incubator so that articles can be brought over more easily? (MF-W?)
>   • A "Request for new languages" is not necessary right away, and tends 
> to bring out the worst in everyone's politics. Let the community work for a 
> little while on Incubator before coming to Meta with a formal request.


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Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"

[Michael Everson]

On 31 Jan 2018, at 12:56, Amir E. Aharoni  wrote:

> So... This raises several questions.

Really?

> 1. Should this language be added to translatewiki.net? This was requested 
> some time ago: 
> https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Thread:Support/Add_support_for_Western_Armenian_(hym)
>  . This means that it will be possible to translate MediaWiki into it.

Yes, certainly it should. 

> 2. I couldn't find a request for a Western Armenian Wikipedia, which is 
> somewhat surprising :) . The closest thing I can find is 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Homshetsma
>  , which is not the same thing. In any case, whenever such a request is made, 
> will it be eligible?

It will be eligible. There are some articles in the current Armenian Wikipedia 
that are marked as written in Western Armenian, and I would be expecting them 
to be migrated.

Homshetsi is evidently a dialect of Western Armenian with fewer than 1000 
speakers. I do not know anything more about it. It has no ISO code. 

> I am inclined to answer "yes" to both questions, but with a caveat. I know 
> very little about the Armenian language. My support is based mainly on 
> Michael's conclusions of the examination of the differences between Eastern 
> and Western varieties.

We showed lists and paradigms showing the linguistic differences. 

> However, the documents linked from the first email in this thread mention the 
> similarity of the situation with Montengrin, which the committee seems not to 
> support.

I don’t support it because it does not appear that Montenegrin differs from 
Serbian in any significant way.

> If we reject Montenegrin, but support Western Armenian, we'll have to explain 
> it.

Absolutely we do not have to do this. There is no dependency between them. 
None. And Western Armenian is HUGELY different from Eastern Armenian. Please 
study the attached which was part of our proposal for the language code.



western-armenian.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [Langcom] 2018 SIL approvals (was: Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw")

[Michael Everson]

Gerard. 639-2 is a subset of 639-3

> On 31 Jan 2018, at 09:57, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> Wait a sec; Montenegrin is to be recognised by the ISO 639-3. I do not care 
> for what ISO 639-2 has to say.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
> On 31 January 2018 at 10:47, Steven White  wrote:
> In fact, the entire 2017 SIL approval/rejection results are available here. 
> (Montenegrin does not appear here, as that was a separate process through ISO 
> 639-2.)
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"

[Michael Everson]

On 31 Jan 2018, at 12:39, Oliver Stegen  wrote:
> 
> Congratulations, Michael and the entire Western Armenian community (or rather 
> communities!). And thanks for all the effort you put into this!

It was quite a lot of effort, producing the proposal document.

Now let’s get this one going. What do they have to do now?

Michael
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[Langcom] Western Armenian has been adopted "hyw"

[Michael Everson]

http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests_2017_Summary.pdf

http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/PastComments/CR_Comments_2017-023.pdf

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Re: [Langcom] Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the summer of 2010

[Michael Everson]

I believe a code for Western Armenian is being approved. Patience.

> On 22 Jan 2018, at 16:05, C. Scott Ananian  wrote:
> 
> Sorry I'm late to the conversation, but I did get a request from the Armenian 
> Wikimedia community at Wikimania 2016 specifically to assist with the 
> assignment of an ISO code for Western Armenian.  Closing the proposal may be 
> the right thing to do at this point, but it is a bit of a chicken and egg 
> issue wrt ISO codes.  I believe there is significant community interest 
> within the Armenian community if we could break this logjam.
>   --scott
> 
> On Jan 22, 2018 6:37 AM, "Steven White"  wrote:
> Having heard no comments on the proposals with respect to Egyptian and 
> Homshetsma over the last seven days, I will close both as rejected, as 
> described in my original message.
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> 
> From: Langcom  on behalf of 
> langcom-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:00 AM
> To: langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 52, Issue 14
>  
> Send Langcom mailing list submissions to
> langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Langcom digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Re: Montenegrin project (Steven White)
>2. Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the summer of 2010
>   (Steven White)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:35:23 +
> From: Steven White 
> To: "langcom@lists.wikimedia.org" 
> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Montenegrin project
> Message-ID:
> 
> 
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Amir: Someone has written a response to your email to LangCom at the bottom 
> of the discussion page on Meta.
> 
> 
> Gerard: You don't get asked all that often here to spend a lot of time on an 
> involved, complicated decision. If I thought I could easily digest it and 
> feed it to you I would. But I don't. I'm not asking you for a lot of time; 
> rather, the community you serve needs you to spend the appropriate amount of 
> time to see the latest evidence and decide what you think.
> 
> 
> Sent from 
> Outlook
> 
> 
> 
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:44:00 +
> From: Steven White 
> To: "langcom@lists.wikimedia.org" 
> Subject: [Langcom] Four more Wikipedia requests dating to the summer
> of 2010
> Message-ID:
> 
> 
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
> Here are four more requests dating back to 2010 that I'd like to dispose of:
> 
> Wikipedia Egyptian 
> (https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRequests_for_new_languages%2FWikipedia_Egyptian=02%7C01%7C%7Cb132479a4ebe4740554308d55cd8cd68%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636517008594733253=%2BrODi9KQti4q37oqlUNtLv68UUvl5IHCpK%2FG%2Fp5Bfw4%3D=0):
>  Propose to reject. SIL marks as an ancient language; it's a predecessor of 
> Coptic. Writing is hieroglyphics. There is no test project underway at 
> Incubator, and the original proposer has not been active in over five years.
> 
> Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Nigerian Pidgin 
> 

Re: [Langcom] Now that Montenegrin's ISO 639-3 code has been published by SIL ...

[Michael Everson]

They never will. This is no longer allowed.

Michael

> On 9 Jan 2018, at 23:52, Antony Green  wrote:
> 
> (Incidentally, С́ с́, З́ з́ don't have precomposed characters in Unicode yet.)


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Re: [Langcom] Now that Montenegrin's ISO 639-3 code has been published by SIL ...

[Michael Everson]

This code was politically, and not linguistically, motivated. Western Armenian 
has just been approved a code, and to prove the linguistic differences caused 
ME to have to do a lot of work on it. We WILL approve a Western Armenian wiki 
(soon) because Eastern and Western Armenian are DIFFERENT languages.

The Montenegrins can PROVE to us that their Wikipedia will be different from 
the Serbian one by demonstrating how it differs and showing that their readers 
cannot use the Serbian Wiki.

They have to at least TRY. This is not like Belarusian. This is not like 
English, even,

Michael Everson
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Re: [Langcom] Montenegrin Wikipedia (URGENT)

[Michael Everson]

It was political. 

> On 28 Dec 2017, at 03:00, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> From a purely linguistic perspective, it's hard to argue with any of this. 
> And I don't have a skin in the game here; objectively, it doesn't matter to 
> me if Montenegrin becomes eligible or not. Still, I would say the following:
> 
> Concerning MF-Warburg's comment: I fully understand that the others are 
> grandfathered and wouldn't be created now. But the fact that they exist now 
> means that the question about Montenegrin cannot be considered in a vacuum, 
> either.
> 
> Concerning Jan's comment: I hear you. But to extend your analogy, the Irish 
> are looking for an Irish English wiki because every time an Irishman tries to 
> bring a different POV to articles about Ireland on the British wiki, s/he is 
> being shot down. (Pretend it's 1975, or 1922, and the example is more 
> trenchant.) Also, this whole issue of language secessionism doesn't really 
> exist in English, so to make that comparison is only partially valid.
> 
> I do think we need to hear from Milos on this subject.
> 
> Let me add: On the Meta discussion page, I'm about to allow the discussion to 
> reopen, with a focus on really two questions only:
> 
>   • The principal question is whether or not Montenegrins actually have 
> "free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge"  on the current 
> projects. What they keep suggesting is that they don't:  Serbian POV 
> dominates, and Montenegrin POV is given short shrift. I am going to ask the 
> Montenegrin advocates to prove that with concrete examples. But if they do 
> so, then either (a) NPOV is going to have to be enforced from the outside (if 
> that's even possible, but thereby violating normal practices of project 
> autonomy) or (b) we're going to have to allow the Montenegrins to have their 
> own project.
>   • The second question: It's really quite remarkable in a way that the 
> Montenegrins got the Library of Congress to make the first change to ISO 
> 639-2 in five years. I'll grant that was probably just a political victory. 
> But I'm going to invite the Montenegrin community to share any new evidence 
> that they may have that may have changed LoC's mind, and could change ours. 
> Maybe there isn't any new evidence. But if there is, we should be open to it.
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
> 
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Montenegrin Wikipedia (URGENT)

[Michael Everson]

It’s true. This language is as far as anyone knows identical to Serbian 
according to the classification we currently use. It is not certain that there 
could be a Monenegrin Wiki that would differ in any meaningful way from the 
Serbian one.  

> On 26 Dec 2017, at 22:43, Steven White  wrote:
> 
> I was going to hold off on this until the holidays are over, but rather 
> remarkably, unless somebody hacked the Library of Congress's web site, 
> Montenegrin has been granted an ISO 639–2 code ("cnr"). This has been in the 
> air over the last month, and represents the first addition to ISO 639–2 in 
> over five  years. The Montenegrin community is jumping for joy, and I've just 
> full-protected the page Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin 5 on 
> Meta because the discussion is getting out of hand.
> 
> If srwiki, hrwiki and bswiki didn't exist, we wouldn't have to create this 
> one, either. But I have to admit that I don't really see any way we can 
> currently justify not approving this project (as "eligible"). My questions 
> are, therefore:
>   • Am I right about that?
>   • Is LangCom willing to see this project marked as "eligible" based on 
> an ISO 639-2 code alone?
>   • The rules are that non-collective ISO 639-2 codes are supposed to be 
> reflected in ISO 639-3 as well. So do I wait until this code is published by 
> SIL?
>   • If so, what happens if SIL does not take action?
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
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Re: [Langcom] Montenegrin Wikipedia (URGENT)

[Michael Everson]

There will be one.

> On 26 Dec 2017, at 23:08, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> We ask for an ISO 639-3. This does not change anything.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
> 
> Op di 26 dec. 2017 om 23:43 schreef Steven White 
> I was going to hold off on this until the holidays are over, but rather 
> remarkably, unless somebody hacked the Library of Congress's web site, 
> Montenegrin has been granted an ISO 639–2 code ("cnr"). This has been in the 
> air over the last month, and represents the first addition to ISO 639–2 in 
> over five  years. The Montenegrin community is jumping for joy, and I've just 
> full-protected the page Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin 5 on 
> Meta because the discussion is getting out of hand.
> 
> If srwiki, hrwiki and bswiki didn't exist, we wouldn't have to create this 
> one, either. But I have to admit that I don't really see any way we can 
> currently justify not approving this project (as "eligible"). My questions 
> are, therefore:
>   • Am I right about that?
>   • Is LangCom willing to see this project marked as "eligible" based on 
> an ISO 639-2 code alone?
>   • The rules are that non-collective ISO 639-2 codes are supposed to be 
> reflected in ISO 639-3 as well. So do I wait until this code is published by 
> SIL?
>   • If so, what happens if SIL does not take action?
> 
> 
> Steven
> 
> Sent from Outlook
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Re: [Langcom] Nys wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

It’s not a Wikipedia as we know it. It’s also mostly stubs and almost-stubs. I 
don’t know if we have a place for it. Has Wikia been considered?

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Re: [Langcom] Nys wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

OK, where is this? I had better take a look at it. It sounds controversial. 

> On 20 Dec 2017, at 11:22, Gnangarra  wrote:
> 
> Kaya
> 
> disclaimer: In saying the below I believe nys.wikipedia.org is ready, and 
> very capable to stand alone,  but I am also thinking about options based on 
> Gerards suggestions and the potential for additional knowledge growth for 
> communities beyond the Noongar language;
> 
> what if it was nys.abridged.wikipedia
> 
> It could be;
> At this Wikipedia we work to write an encyclopaedia in Noongar language. We 
> use Noongar language where ever possible and english when necessary. This 
> Wikipedia reflects the challenges of working with primarily an oral language 
> and the importance of sharing the cultural knowledge of the Noongar people. 
> The broader less noongar specific knowledge topics are best written about on 
> en.wikipedia.org.
> 
> 
> This would create a model for other  language communities to follow from the 
> incubator, yet they would still be a "Wikipedia" which itself is an important 
> aspect.  We could create a path way that over time could enable progression 
> and drop the '' .abridged '' if the community wished to do so in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> On 20 December 2017 at 18:07, Gerard Meijssen  
> wrote:
> Hoi,
> We have a situation where it makes sense to provide a platform for the  
> Noongar language and culture. As you will read in the thread, Wikipedia is 
> not the platform for this because of the hostility against subjects that lack 
> "sources". The Noongar language is largely oral so much of the content will 
> be in English..
> 
> So the question for you and the Wikimedia board is: can we provide room for 
> them probably under a different platform name?
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
> On 19 December 2017 at 10:26, Gnangarra  wrote:
> Kaya
> 
> I did raise my concerns about the use of english when in Berlin and was told 
> that it was ok, I'll focus on getting more of it translated though I hope 
> this doesnt hold the project.  
> 
> One of our key issues is that Noongar is an oral language and written form is 
> the result of european records, those records have created a situation where 
> the written language is different dependent on the language the person spoke. 
>  We people like Salvado a Spanish Benedictine monk who's spelling used a 
> mixture of spanish and latin depending on the sounds.  Then there are various 
> English, Welsh and Celtic settlers along with dutch, french, and german 
> explorers all of whom recorded it in their own orthographies...  One top of 
> the region in which the language was spoken is larger than UK and like the UK 
> areas had their own unique dialects despite speaking the same language.  The 
> beauty of this that some words can have more than 25 different spellings.   
> 
> The Noongar community came together in the early 1990's to establish a more 
> consistent use of spellings to enable the language to be taught in schools, 
> currently there are about 50 schools across the WA teaching Noongar.The 
> simple act of translating the 762 most important messages has been a complex 
> task of consultations with many groups, spread across the regions.   When it 
> came to writing content we encouraged two things one was localised spelling 
> as we do for english and recording the knowledge(Katitjin).   Knowing all of 
> this background and having experienced many a waagnkininy about language over 
> the last 4 years ( all early work was hosted by WMAU)   the decision was 
> taken for inclusiveness to allow english while the community is being built 
> as we dont want to be seen a preferencing any specific one of the 15-20 
> different regional groups.
> 
> Because of the survival of Noongar and continual use as a language despite 
> laws, aided by it's adoption in to South West Australian english its probably 
> one of the most complex living languages Wikimedia Movement will ever see.
>  
> 
> The value and future benefits to the movement of allowing the move now far 
> exceeds the cost in using a few words of english in its initial phase.   As 
> always members are welcome to come to WA to experience firsthand a living 
> language and culture that has been in continual use for 50,000+ years.
> 
> Boodar
> Gnangarra
> 
> 
> 
> On 18 December 2017 at 21:43, Jon Harald Søby  wrote:
> Hi Gnangarra,
> 
> I'm quite confused, because practically all the samples I looked at from 
> https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wp/nys are articles in English, 
> not in Nyungar. A new language edition of Wikipedia needs to be in that 
> language, not content in another language (in this case English) about that 
> language and its culture, etc. The content as it presently stands should 
> either be incorporated into the English Wikipedia (although with their 
> stringent notability criteria I'm afraid a 

Re: [Langcom] Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

What is this about?

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Language_committee#Notification_about_proposed_approval_of_lfn.wikipedia

I thought we approved it. 

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] our interaction (WAS: Four Wikipedia project requests dating from 2009 or earlier)

[Michael Everson]

> On 11 Dec 2017, at 15:41, Milos Rancic  wrote:
> 
> Michael, I appreciate your effort to be constructive.

Thank you for saying so.

> In short, it is late for real life cooperation.

Nope. One just chooses to cooperate.

> It is late for mutual respect, as well.

Nope. One just chooses to Assume Good Faith and one chooses not to attack. 

> But it is not late for doing the job of LangCom members without provocations 
> and by not obstructing creation of Wikimedia projects in languages which 
> speakers are not enough connected to be relevant for Gerard.

To be honest I don’t even remember what projects are being held up at this 
point, but I don’t think it is fair to attack Gerard for it. I support LFN. I 
would oppose Neo-Tengwar. I know why. 

> P.S. It was not about an oligarch, but about a state-owned company.

Fair enough. The line there is sometimes blurred, depending on country.

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] our interaction (WAS: Four Wikipedia project requests dating from 2009 or earlier)

[Michael Everson]

I thought we did conclude this.

> On 11 Dec 2017, at 15:26, Milos Rancic  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:24 PM, MF-Warburg  wrote:
> No, we changed that, remember? 
> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee/Voting_policy
> 
> AFAIK, we have never concluded that. Have we, Gerard?
> 
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Re: [Langcom] our interaction (WAS: Four Wikipedia project requests dating from 2009 or earlier)

[Michael Everson]

You know, Miloš, our world is full of imperfection. We’ve had patriarchy at 
least since the incursions of the Indo-Europeans into the Balkans in the 4th 
millennium BC. We’ve survived wars and persecution perpetrated for purposes of 
land, money, religion, sex, kin-colour, sexuality, and other kinds of power. 

This group exists to help people make encyclopaedias in their own language. 
That is, on its own, a strong indication that we all care about those who lack 
privilege. Many of us on this list are privileged. Most of us are men. Most 
have a Fitzpatrick skin type of 1 or 2. Most are probably heterosexual. Some 
are atheists. Some are native speakers of English. All have plenty of 
electricity and education and tech. 

For you to perceive the smallest injustice or infelicity and label it “racism” 
and then to attack another member of the group is not wise. There is a fairly 
large movement going on right now, reported widely in the media, which 
considers accusation and denunciation to be some kind of cure of all the woes 
patriarchy has foisted upon our civilization.

Not one of us here is a racist. Not one of us here is perfect. All of us have 
some privilege even if that intersects with one or more unprivileges. 

Please calm down. You have been a valuable member of this group for a long 
time. Please resolve not to attack Gerard or anyone else with the word 
“racist”. Using the word doesn’t make it so, and your using it hasn’t made us 
all realize how right you are. 

I remember well the positive meetings we had in Berlin. I even remember 
discussions of how we might tap into some oligarch funding via Serbian 
connections to achieve some of our goals. But it is our goals which are 
important. 

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

On 9 Dec 2017, at 23:04, Milos Rancic  wrote:
> 
> Michael, I am sure IETF would find a subtag for Klingon with the extended 
> vocabulary.

I doubt I would approve it.

> Or it would require another ISO 639-3 code?

Because it had additional vocabulary? Not a chance.

> I mean, if it's not possible to treat them as so close varieties, so it's not 
> necessary to do any additional standardization.

Klingon is doing fine on its own. Its users enjoy it. It’s expanding now due to 
the new television series. It does not concern us right now, does it?

> And how should we treat such hypothetical situatuion? Like American and 
> British English, like Serbian and Croatian or like something else?

What, dialects of conlangs? Ido can be considered to be a dialect of Esperanto. 
A “reform-dialect” but a dialect nonetheless.

I don’t think we need to make a lot of rules right now. LFN will be a nice 
Wikipedia. 

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

On 9 Dec 2017, at 12:24, Milos Rancic  wrote:
> 
> I've just said that Klingon makes more sense than LFN, as it actually has 
> native speakers.

That’s not really true. Not like Esperanto has.

M
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Re: [Langcom] Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

On 9 Dec 2017, at 05:54, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> We had Klingon at one time.. Do you really consider revisiting that ?

Why not? I got it its ISO 639 code.

M

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Re: [Langcom] Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

That’s three in favour…
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Re: [Langcom] Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

I reiterate my approval.

> On 1 Dec 2017, at 15:58, Oliver Stegen  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Steve, for the reminder.
> 
> Last time, the discussion got sidetracked into discussing [grc] instead of 
> [lfn]. Hopefully, we'll stay on track this time.
> 
> I vote +1 for approving Lingua Franca Nova Wikipedia. (Still for the same 
> arguments which swayed me in February, particularly Jan's and Michael's 
> posts.)
> 
> Oliver
> 
> On 01-Dec-17 15:57, Steven White wrote:
>> I would like to get this decided definitively. Based on the discussion 
>> thread on the subject that started January 31 and went into February, it 
>> seems to me that LangCom was leaning favorably toward this project. However, 
>> that discussion thread was not closed definitively, so I'd ask for that to 
>> happen now. Thank you.
>> 
>> Steven
>> 
>> Sent from Outlook
>> 
>>  Virus-free. www.avg.com
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Langcom] English, USA and Australian

[Michael Everson]

For what purpose? What context? You have given no information about the 
requester or the request.

en-AU, en-CA, en-GB, en-IE, en-NZ, en-US, and en-ZA are the usual ways of doing 
these things.

> On 12 Nov 2017, at 09:08, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> There is a request for a code for Australian and USAmerican English. For use 
> in Wikidata there is imho no reason why not to allow it.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
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Re: [Langcom] Request for closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

If a non-native speaker is screwing up wikipedias, he should not be allowed to 
continue.

On 17 Oct 2017, at 07:57, Maor Malul  wrote:
> 
> I'm more than happy to do it, but I have experienced Marrovi's behavior in 
> the Spanish Wikipedia, where he has been permanently blocked, and in the 
> Ladino Wikipedia, where he was doing the same thing (and in my opinion, still 
> does) and I do not trust him; I am even thinking it is time for a Global Ban 
> -the value of his contributions are reduced to almost zero with his attitude 
> towards other contributors and making his own rules on every project he has 
> worked on, as you can see on each one of the four wikis he has been 
> permanently banned from. 
> 
> I'd rather contact WMMX to see how more Nahuatl speakers can be recruited and 
> in the meantime, encourage the current nahwiki community to improve the 
> contents of the project, discussing it on Meta.
> 
> Thanks,
> M
> 
> On 16/10/2017 8:59 p.m., Oliver Stegen wrote:
>> Thanks, Steven - I applaud your wrestling with possible next steps and your 
>> proposal of a general RfC page on Meta. Alas!, I don't have enough Spanish 
>> to represent LangCom there. Maybe Maor Malul? (the only native Spanish 
>> speaker among us)
>> 
>> Fwiw,
>> Oliver
>> 
>> On 16-Oct-17 19:43, Steven White wrote:
>>> There is no question that User:Marrovi is difficult. The fact that the 
>>> proposal comes from him makes it hard to take seriously in many respects. 
>>> And in any event, unless the nahwiki project is really not in valid Nahuatl 
>>> (of some type or another), I don't see any policy grounds on which you can 
>>> justify closing this project.  
>>> 
>>> That having been said, I think you really need to take the comments by 
>>> Marcos Williamson (by e-mail) and User:Maunus (on-wiki) to heart. It's 
>>> really too bad that Marrovi's presence muddles the picture so much, because 
>>> there are apparently some serious issues here.  I am not sure, personally, 
>>> exactly what to do about it. In theory, I try to encourage the individual 
>>> Nahuatl test projects at Incubator, but Marrovi is also very active there, 
>>> and I do not have the language skills to know if he's writing garbage (and 
>>> can be blocked) or not.
>>> 
>>> As to the current nah Wikipedia, in principle I like the suggestion by 
>>> Maunus (that Michael endorsed). But I don't see how that generally fits 
>>> WMF's rules ("anyone can edit").  I've been wracking my brain over next 
>>> steps forward, and all I can really see is this:
>>> • Reject and close this current proposal.
>>> • Create a more general RfC page to discuss whether the rules for 
>>> nahwiki should (or even can) be changed to give more weight to the 
>>> contributions of true, fluent Nahuatl speakers. I think this should be on 
>>> Meta, because if it is actually on nahwiki, much will be in Nahuatl, and 
>>> most of us can't speak it. 
>>> • When you do this, it would be best if someone had at least a 
>>> rough proposal in mind. And I suspect it needs to include some content 
>>> evaluation by experts in Nahuatl who are currently uninvolved in the 
>>> dispute.
>>> • Probably someone fairly fluent in Spanish—that's the "major" 
>>> language that most interested parties speak–needs to draft that proposal 
>>> and then moderate.
>>> • Marrovi needs to be strictly limited in his contributions so 
>>> that he does not continue to write "walls" of text. If you set such 
>>> limitations, I can enforce them as a sysop.
>>> • See if Wikimedia Mexico can recruit more Nahuatl-speaking 
>>> contributors. 
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Steven White (User:StevenJ81)
>>> 
>>> Sent from Outlook
>>> 
>>> Virus-free. www.avg.com
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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> -- 
> "Jülüjain wane mmakat ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua junain 
> ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain." 
> Maor Malul 
> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve 
> Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il 
> Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee 
> Phone: +972-52-4869915
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Re: [Langcom] Request for closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

I like this:

> I am an expert in these languages, though not a professor, but I can state 
> that most of the content is not in correct classical Nahuatl - and that the 
> neologisms invented by non-native speakers are not immediately intelligible 
> or helpful for native speakers or experts in classical nahuatl. Nevertheless, 
> I think the better solution would be for all non-native speaking editors to 
> simply back out and let the native speakers take over the wiki and refashion 
> it in the way that most serves their needs. And then for wikimedia to do some 
> serious outreach efforts to recruit native speaking editors in Mexico. Maunus 
> (talk) 06:31, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

That seems reasonable.

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Re: [Langcom] Hindi Wikiversity should not be created

[Michael Everson]

This should move forward. 

> On 20 Jul 2017, at 22:04, MF-Warburg  wrote:
> 
> Indeed we should, this is already taking embarrasingly long. Do any other 
> members plan to review the test-wiki content?
> 
> 2017-07-20 3:58 GMT+02:00 Jay prakash <0freerunn...@gmail.com>:
> This is my humble Request to langcom. We can hurry in Discussion. Because 
> this taked already long time after creation of task.
> 
> On 19-Jul-2017 4:20 pm, "Jay prakash" <0freerunn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Langcom Members,
> 
> As of Hindi points of view the content which already have 
> are very usefull. There are no site on internet which provide this type of 
> information. We already made well written content like Principals of 
> Management and Aerospace Engineering etc. Where the content is much better 
> than English Wikiversity. Because where we describe whats do student after 
> 10+2. You can verify it with third party source. The partialy failure of Eng 
> Wikiversity is that because the many sites host learning content in english. 
> But Hindi Wikiversity will be the only place where native get free knowledge 
> in thier language. I am not say you believe me. You can confirm it with third 
> party. 
> 
> With the respect of time. Hindi Wikiversity will be milestone. Thanks
> 
> On 19-Jul-2017 10:20 am, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:
> Hoi,
> People want us to consider the deletion of projects... not happy about it. 
> The consequence for me is that we also look at Wikiversity as a project. Is 
> it viable, is it used. What experiences exist with English Wikipedia ?
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
> On 19 July 2017 at 03:35, MF-Warburg  wrote:
> StevenJ81 informed me that most of the pages are only in 
> ,
>  for whatever reason (>400). So I looked at them as well.
> 
> With this "full picture", it looks much better. Not stellar, but well... the 
> project is active and continues to be edited (and, I guess, improved).
> Now my opinion is that we should carry on with the approval.
> 
> 2017-07-19 1:21 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg :
> I have now looked through the Hindi pages on Beta.wikiversity myself. At 
> first I just wanted to look at a random sample of pages, but then I noticed 
> that there are only "69 pages (including categories, templates, talk pages, 
> and redirects)" (cf. catanalysis). I don't know if this number was higher 
> previously.
> However, that is IMHO way too little for a wiki to be approved. I also don't 
> see any pages that look like courses, which after all, is what Wikiversity is 
> for.
> 
> Therefore I agree with the starting point of this thread, that Hindi 
> Wikiversity should not be created, and the approval taken back.
> 
> 2017-07-19 1:09 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg :
> Yes, agreed. Though the question here is different, it is about whether the 
> test-project as it currently is is in a state that is appropriate for 
> approval.
> 
> 
> 2017-07-18 12:51 GMT+02:00 Jon Harald Søby :
> (Late reply, sorry.)
> 
> While I may have doubts about the merits of Wikiversity myself, I don't think 
> it's within the scope of the Language Committee to deny the creation of 
> projects based on those merits. We should only focus on whether the community 
> for the relevant language edition of a project is healthy enough for it to 
> become a separate project, without consideration for the individual committee 
> members' feelings about the project as a whole.
> 
> 2017-07-04 18:12 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen :
> Hoi,
> Yes, that is the politically correct answer. The question asked by several is 
> what is Wikiversity good for. Is it actually used?
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
> On 4 July 2017 at 18:06, Satdeep Gill  wrote:
> I do think that the community will improve content as the time progresses. 
> The community has been working hard on translation as well.
> 
> But I do see some pages which are not written well and contain machine 
> translations. Such as
> 
> https://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/%E0%A4%90%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B8_%E0%A4%87%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%97
> 
> Regards
> Satdeep Gill
> 
> Strategy Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
> Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
> Treasurer, Affiliations Committee
> Member, Language Committee
> 
> On 25 June 2017 at 01:08, Jay prakash <0freerunn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Computer_graphics/2013-2014/Page_footer]
> See Here.
> 
> On 6/25/17, Mahir Morshed  wrote:
> > Well, the part in [brackets] was "the lack of effort to even localize the
> > comments in the code samples" and I did mention that it 

Re: [Langcom] Voting changes

[Michael Everson]

Gerard,

We do not have any top-level BCP 47 tags.

Wikimedia is already using BCP 47 subtags without any trouble.

> On 4 Jul 2017, at 15:16, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> In the case of macro languages and BCP 47 codes there is a need for a two 
> third majority. The first is something that should be prevented as much as 
> possible because it prevents projects that are part of the macro language. 
> For the BCP 47 there should be a real linguistic point in having them and we 
> should try to prevent them as they are often more of a political than 
> linguistic reality.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
> 
> On 9 February 2017 at 17:00, Milos Rancic  wrote:
> One issue: voting.
> 
> == Voting ==
> 
> This is also proposal, so read it and comment if you don't agree or
> you want any addition.
> 
> 1) No voting
> 
> 1.1) According to the Closing projects policy [1], particular member
> of the committee analyzes discussion and, if decides that the project
> should be closed, sends the request to WMF Board.
> 
> 1.2) Clear-cut situations for making a language eligible for Wikimedia
> projects: the language has a valid ISO 639-3 code, there are no
> significant issues in relation to the language itself, the population
> of speakers is significant, request made by a native speaker. In this
> case, any committee member can mark language / project eligible.
> 
> 1.3) Approval without obvious formal requirements. No project will be
> approved without them.
> 
> 2) Simple majority (of those who expressed opinion)
> 
> 2.1) Eligibility of a language with a valid ISO 639-3 code, but
> without significant population of native speakers. (Note: this covers
> ancient, constructed, reviving and languages with small number of
> speakers.)
> 
> 2.2) Eligibility of a language without a valid ISO 639-3 code, but
> valid BCP 47 code. (Note: this covers Ecuadorian Quechua.)
> 
> 2.3) Eligibility of a language with significant collision between
> prescriptive and descriptive information. (Note: this covers
> "macrolangauges".)
> 
> 2.4) Project approval if not 1.3.
> 
> 3) 2/3 majority (of those who expressed opinion)
> 
> 3.1) Any change of the rules, including the committee's role in
> possible changes of the Language proposal policy [2] and Closing
> projects policy [1].
> 
> 4) Consensus (of those who expressed opinion)
> 
> 4.1) A new member of the Language committee should not be opposed by
> any of the current committee member.
> 
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Closing_projects_policy
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Voting changes

[Michael Everson]

I do not have time to go and edit the voting policy right now. 
Please take my concerns into account.


> On 4 Jul 2017, at 12:31, MF-Warburg <mfwarb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
> Are there further comments about this? I'd invite those of you who want to 
> change parts of the policy to edit 
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee/Voting_policy> directly 
> to address your concerns.
> 
> 2017-06-13 19:20 GMT+02:00 Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>:
> On 13 Jun 2017, at 06:58, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hoi,
> > First there is no agreement.
> 
> Not sure what you are talking about.
> 
> > Second, for ISO-639-3 languages that are living languages there is no need 
> > for a vote.
> 
> That’s our rules, yes.
> 
> > Third, for other ISO-639-3 languages there is a need for a vote.
> 
> I suppose there are living languages with few if any users and other 
> languages with potentially very many.
> 
> > Compelling arguments are needed and a two third majority is reasonable.
> 
> What does everyone feel about this?
> 
> > Fourth for codes that do not have an ISO-639-3 code the standard answer is 
> > no. Without proper arguments this should not happen.
> 
> And this is the BPC 47 thing. That’s a very important and widely-implemented 
> standard. If the 639 Agency had refused Elfdalian, we would have created a 
> primary tag for it. That would be a situation where a non-standard answer 
> might be useful.
> 
> Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Kurdish autonyms

[Michael Everson]

ISO 639 does not name languages. ISO 639 specifies codes to represent the names 
of languages.

Having said that, the Wikipedia article on Kurdish says that Sorani Kurdish has 
only relatively recently begin calling itself Kurdî. I don’t think we should 
support such a development as it may work to the detriment of other Kurdish 
languages. 

> On 2 Jul 2017, at 14:12, Mjbmr  wrote:
> 
> Southern Kurdish (sdh) people are not welcomed there, Southern Kurdish is 
> written in Arabic script too, so don't change Central Kurdish to Kurdish 
> unless you wanna change ckbwiki to a something else. We have an Standard and 
> it's called ISO.


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Re: [Langcom] Kurdish autonyms

[Michael Everson]

We have a similar issue in English. British, American, Australian, New Zealand, 
South African, etc. 

The three varieties of Kurdish are not mutually intelligible (says the oracle 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_languages#Subdivisions here) and they 
ought to have terms for all three that they can use. 

It is wrong to say that any one of the Kurdish languages is “more Kurdish” than 
the others. 

Perhaps they will respond to something like this.

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] [i18n software news] Collation for Bashkir

[Michael Everson]

HUZZAH!

> On 13 Jun 2017, at 07:09, Amir E. Aharoni  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Another edition of i18n software news!
> 
> Yesterday, a change was deployed in the Bashkir Wikipedia: The categories are 
> now sorted in the correct alphabetical order.
> 
> Bashkir, like many languages of the Soviet Union, uses the Cyrillic alphabet 
> with several extra characters. Without proper software support, the extra 
> letters are sorted according according to their Unicode character number 
> order, which is not very useful. For example, the letter Ө is supposed to be 
> in the middle of the alphabet between О and П, but without correct collation 
> it's in the end, so Ufa (Өфө), the capital of Bashkortostan, appears in the 
> very end of the alphabet in the "Capitals of Russian regions" category [1] , 
> but now it appears correctly before П.
> 
> This could be resolved by adding the collation for this language to CLDR and 
> ICU, and I filed a ticket about this with CLDR [2]. Actually getting it added 
> and deployed is a long process, but the MediaWiki developer Brian Wolff 
> provided a good interim solution in MediaWiki code itself. The infrastructure 
> code around it is surprisingly tricky, but to simply add a new alphabet, you 
> just need to create a file like this:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/source/mediawiki/browse/master/includes/collation/BashkirUppercaseCollation.php
> 
> When it is added to CLDR and ICU, this stopgap solution can be removed from 
> MediaWiki.
> 
> As far as I can see, Bashkir is the first language for which such a 
> comprehensive solution was made inside MediaWiki, and it is needed for many 
> others. I'll start looking for other languages where this is needed. My 
> process would be something like this:
> 1. Find a languages in which there is a Wikipedia with incorrect collation.
> 2. Find the correct alphabetical order, using a grammar book or a dictionary, 
> and confirm it with editors in that language.
> 3. Submit a ticket to CLDR.
> 4. Add a file with an alphabet, like the Bashkir file above, to MediaWiki 
> core.
> 5. Get it reviewed, merged, and deployed.
> 6. Deploy the change to the projects in that language.
> 7. Run a script that converts the categories to the new collation.
> 
> (Steps 5 and 6 sound repetitive because it needs to explicitly enabled for 
> each wiki. I filed another bug [4], which suggests defining a default 
> collation per language, so that step 6 won't be needed.)
> 
> If anybody has better suggestions about working with CLDR and ICU and getting 
> them to add and release these collation files faster, I'll be very happy to 
> hear them.
> 
> [1] http://bit.ly/2sWLJaX
> [2] http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/10195
> [3] For the confirmation about Bashkir see 
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T162823 .
> [4] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T164985
> 
> --
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> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
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Re: [Langcom] Voting changes

[Michael Everson]

On 13 Jun 2017, at 06:58, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Hoi,
> First there is no agreement. 

Not sure what you are talking about. 

> Second, for ISO-639-3 languages that are living languages there is no need 
> for a vote.

That’s our rules, yes. 

> Third, for other ISO-639-3 languages there is a need for a vote.

I suppose there are living languages with few if any users and other languages 
with potentially very many.

> Compelling arguments are needed and a two third majority is reasonable.

What does everyone feel about this?

> Fourth for codes that do not have an ISO-639-3 code the standard answer is 
> no. Without proper arguments this should not happen.

And this is the BPC 47 thing. That’s a very important and widely-implemented 
standard. If the 639 Agency had refused Elfdalian, we would have created a 
primary tag for it. That would be a situation where a non-standard answer might 
be useful.

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Dinka Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

Did you communicate with Andrew Cunningham?

> On 12 Jun 2017, at 15:33, Amir E. Aharoni  
> wrote:
> 
> Just checking—it has been over a week, so if I'm not getting any objections, 
> I'm requesting the domain creation.



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Re: [Langcom] Dinka Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

Please write to him. I don’t have cycles for more.

> On 1 Jun 2017, at 17:00, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
> 
> Happily, but what comments exactly?
> 
> 
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> 
> 2017-06-01 18:49 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>:
> Andrew Cunningham and.cunning...@gmail.com has some comments about Dinka. Do 
> you want to write to him?
> 
> Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Proposed short-to-mid-term solution for Mapudungun/Mapuche

[Michael Everson]

On 18 May 2017, at 14:11, Steven White <koala19...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> It seems to me that the best immediate solution is for us to assign them a 
> q-code, maybe qmp.

If we were to do this we would be open to request after request for private-use 
codes for entities that do not have a valid standard code. 

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Re: [Langcom] Proposed short-to-mid-term solution for Mapudungun/Mapuche

[Michael Everson]

On 18 May 2017, at 16:41, Milos Rancic  wrote:

>> When we accept codes that do not signify an existing language, it becomes 
>> easy to argue all kinds of corner cases. This door is best kept closed.
> 
> In other words, we should keep a number of communities without Wikimedia 
> projects (Mapudungun is not the only case) to keep Gerard not upset.

Oh, quit pouting.

Go. Go talk to the Chileans. Help them to write to the JAC with a request. That 
is the ONLY WAY that a change can be made. 

I have already written to them to ask. I have sent you their response. So 
either shut about it, or go and work with them to prepare a new request. There 
is nothing that we can do about it here. 

Michael
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[Langcom] Problems keyboarding African languages

[Michael Everson]

I was looking at https://ak.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twi and have discovered that at 
least half of the letters which should be encoded as LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN O 
have been written as HEBREW LETTER KAF. Clearly keyboard standards would help 
Akan users edit the Wikipedia. But in the meantime, can at least the data be 
fixed?

Michael Everson
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Re: [Langcom] Notes from the Berlin meeting

[Michael Everson]

tify texts written for the benefit of the 260,000 native 
speakers. 

> If *you* think not, please send me a private email with the reasons. I would 
> be happy to be convinced by you in opposite and will apologize here. If 
> convinced, will do that partially for JAC, as well, because I think that it's 
> not possible to defend Unicode's institutional racism.

Miloš Rančić, I hereby request an immediate formal apology from you right now, 
here, in public, for having attacked the Unicode Consortium as perpetrating 
“institutional racism”. The Unicode Consortium, along with ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2, 
maintains the Universal Character Set, known as the Unicode Standard and 
ISO/IEC 10646. This standard has nothing whatever to do with the language codes 
of ISO 639.

It appears to me that you do not understand the development of these 
international standards.

Michael Everson
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Re: [Langcom] Notes from the Berlin meeting

[Michael Everson]

I will not discuss this nonsense with you any more, Miloš. 

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Notes from the Berlin meeting

[Michael Everson]

On 17 May 2017, at 17:13, Milos Rancic  wrote:

> Because SIL is at least sensible enough to have the policy to change 
> derogatory codes, while Congress Library is too white to be able to 
> comprehend that.

You do not have any idea what you are talking about. 

>>> Fine. I don't think that one 80% white male 80% WASP institution should be 
>>> in charge for something that affects the whole world.
>> 
>> The membership of the ISO 639 JAC is specified in the standardization 
>> documents and has nothing to do with skin colour, sex, or religion. This 
>> sort of rhetoric is just bullshit in the present context.
>> 
>> The code was assigned a long time ago. Standardizers are reluctant to change 
>> codes because the stability of standards is important. Your trying to whip 
>> this up into some sort of institutional or cultural prejudice against the 
>> speakers of Mapuche is unacceptable.
> 
> Michael, I will respond to this, but, please, keep in mind that you are just 
> embarrassing yourself by forcing this issue.

You have raised issues of racism and imperialism and you have made baseless 
accusations about the RA for ISO 639.

> The fact that you are ignoring the fact that it *matters* who is making 
> *political* decisions is the part of not just ignorance, but of very white 
> and very racist "expert" narrative. If you are not able to recognize that, 
> just trust me that you should stop with that line of argumentation.

Melanin helps to protect us from UV radiation and to permit the production of 
Vitamin D.

I have explained to you MANY TIMES. Most of the ISO 639-2 codes were made many 
years ago. No one was trying to insult anyone. No one was trying to push an 
imperialist agenda. No one was looking at skin tone variation in Chile. They 
were trying to tag data for libraries. Do you understand this? 

I have explained to you MANY TIMES as well that reluctance to change codes on 
the part of the JAC has to do with a concern for stability in encoding. 

I ave informed you that I have spoken to the JAC, and I have supplied to you 
their response. They looked at this 5 years ago and were not minded at that 
time to destabilize encoding. They also said they would consider an application 
if one were submitted.

You persist in arguing with ME about it and all I have done is explain facts to 
you.

Learn.

Michael

PS. If you author anything, anything at all that attacks the JAC as you have 
done here, I will put my foot down on it going out with LangCom or WMF blessing.
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Re: [Langcom] Notes from the Berlin meeting

[Michael Everson]

On 17 May 2017, at 15:23, Milos Rancic <mill...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> BTW, it's about ISO-639-3, not ISO-639-6 code.
>> 
>> It is an ISO 639-2 code.
> 
> Even worse! They don't want to change the least sensible set of codes.

What are you on about? It is the same code, in both ISO 639-2 and 639-3.

> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com> wrote:
>> I received a response from a member of the JAC regarding “arn":
>> 
>>> We received and considered a request for this about 5 years ago. I don't 
>>> believe there was a formal vote, but it was generally disfavored by all on 
>>> the JAC. I do not expect it would be approved in a second round of 
>>> discussion, but they are welcome to submit it.
> 
> Fine. I don't think that one 80% white male 80% WASP institution should be in 
> charge for something that affects the whole world.

The membership of the ISO 639 JAC is specified in the standardization documents 
and has nothing to do with skin colour, sex, or religion. This sort of rhetoric 
is just bullshit in the present context. 

The code was assigned a long time ago. Standardizers are reluctant to change 
codes because the stability of standards is important. Your trying to whip this 
up into some sort of institutional or cultural prejudice against the speakers 
of Mapuche is unacceptable.

Michael Everson
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Re: [Langcom] Notes from the Berlin meeting

[Michael Everson]

I received a response from a member of the JAC regarding “arn":

> We received and considered a request for this about 5 years ago. I don't 
> believe there was a formal vote, but it was generally disfavored by all on 
> the JAC. I do not expect it would be approved in a second round of 
> discussion, but they are welcome to submit it.

Michael
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Re: [Langcom] Notes from the Berlin meeting

[Michael Everson]

On 17 May 2017, at 12:51, Milos Rancic <mill...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In relation to the ISO 639-3 code for Mapudungun (see below), I’ve asked 
> Christophe, Board chair, if we could find the way that Language committee 
> fill the form in the name of Wikimedia Foundation. The answer is "yes" if we 
> communicate particular issue with the Board. It is important to know that 
> there is such an option for the future issues and not just related with ISO 
> 639-3.

The ISO JAC will look at arguments, not necessarily the source of a request. 

> === Mapudungun ===
> 
> Mapudungun has the code which Mapuche people treat as derogatory. My position 
> is that we should help them and make pressure over JAC to make the change.

 “Pressure” doesn’t work.

> To be honest, I am prepared to push this into much higher level than 
> Wikimedia is, as they were able to change the codes for a language because 
> one ethnicity is inherently racist and didn’t want to be connected with the 
> other ethnicity by ISO 639-6 code name, while JAC are not capable to address 
> colonial and racist past of their own societies.

I’m going to ignore this rhetoric.

> Said so, Michael was quite nervous about that

Nonsense.

> and he will definitely vote against that when I put this on vote here.

Please don’t speak for me. 

I have written to the JAC to ask them what they think. 

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Re: [Langcom] Sheshi Pang

[Michael Everson]

We should consult, but it’s possible to ask the requester what he or she thinks 
about the naming.

> On 14 May 2017, at 20:33, Antony Green  wrote:
> 
> A request has been made for Wikipedia in Sheshi Pang 
> [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Sheshi_Pang],
>  a Sino-Tibetan language of Nepal. However, ISO calls the language Sheshi 
> Kham [http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=kip]; the Wikipedia 
> article groups it together with three other languages as the Kham language 
> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kham_language]. Ethnologue estimates 20,000 
> native speakers.
> 
> Is there any reason not to mark this eligible?
> 
> Should we use the requester's name Sheshi Pang or ISO's name Sheshi Kham?
> 
> Regards,
> Antony
> 
> -- 
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> Rudolf-Seiffert-Str. 31
> WE 1703
> 10369 Berlin, Germany
> E-Mail: toniogr...@web.de
> Mobile: +49-176-82295920
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Moldovan projects

[Michael Everson]

Can’t the Moldovan Cyrillic stuff be Latinized and offered to the Romanian wiki 
community?

> On 24 Apr 2017, at 09:47, Oliver Stegen  wrote:
> 
> I'm sitting on the fence on this one.
> 
> On the one hand, DELETING is a terrible action - I'd almost always support 
> keeping something rather than throwing it away for ever.
> On the other hand, if we move everything and anything that isn't viable as an 
> independent project to the Incubator, then the Incubator is in danger of 
> becoming a rubbish dump.
> 
> So, with a heavy heart, and on the condition that there is nothing in there 
> that is worth keeping, I would vote for deletion.
> 
> On 15-Apr-17 22:33, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
>> OK, that's what I meant. Does it make sense to move to Incubator?
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>> ‪“We're living in pieces,
>> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>> 
>> 2017-04-15 23:15 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic :
>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
>>  wrote:
>> > TLDR: Close.
>> 
>> Keep in mind that this is DELETE request. It's been closed already for a 
>> decade.
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Re: [Langcom] Livvi-Karelian Wikisource

[Michael Everson]

Thank you for this thankless clerical work, Antony.


> On 19 Apr 2017, at 22:56, Antony Green  wrote:
> 
> OK, thanks. While we're about it, there are several other pending requests 
> for Wikisources that I would like to take care of:
> 
> * Old Norwegian 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Old_Norwegian] 
> should be rejected. It has no code and is just a dialect of Old Norse. Texts 
> could be listed either at Norwegian Wikisource or in the Old Norse section of 
> Multilingual Wikisource [wikisource.org/wiki/Main_Page/Norr%C5%93nt]
> 
> * Kurdish 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Kurdish] is 
> surely eligible.
> 
> * Neapolitan 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Neapolitan] 
> should be eligible. The only argument against it is that Italian Wikisource 
> already hosts pages in Neapolitan 
> [it.wikisource.org/wiki/Categoria:Testi_in_napoletano]; but the Neapolitan 
> section of Multilingual Wikisource [wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Napulitano] 
> has more texts, and the discussion suggests that Neapolitan editors would 
> prefer their own Wikisource rather than contributing to Italian Wikisource.
> 
> * Burmese (Myanmar) 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Myanmar] is 
> surely eligible.
> 
> * Zazaki 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Zazaki] is 
> surely eligible; it has its own Wikipedia already 
> [diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pela_Seri]
> 
> * Lojban 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Lojban] is 
> surely eligible; it has its own Wikipedia already 
> [jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/uikipedi'as:ralju].
> * Manchu 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Manchu] seems 
> to be eligible (the native speaker requirement being waived for Wikisources), 
> though I'm not sure if we're technically able to host a Wikisource in a 
> vertically written language yet.
> 
> * Uzbek [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Uzbek] 
> is surely eligible.
> 
> * Western Panjabi 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Western_Punjabi]
>  is surely eligible; it has its own Wikipedia already 
> [pnb.wikipedia.org/wiki/پہلا_صفہ].
> 
> * Pashto 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Pashto] is 
> surely eligible.
> 
> Are there any objections to my rejecting Old Norwegian and marking eligible 
> all of the others mentioned above, as well as Livvi-Karelian?
> 
> Antony
> 
> Am 2017-04-19 um 23:17 schrieb Milos Rancic:
>> Yes. The language is a valid one.
>> 
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Antony Green 
>> 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> We've had a request for a Wikisource in Livvi-Karelian
>>> [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Livvi-Karelian].
>>> Since there is already a Wikipedia in that language
>>> [olo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piäsivu] it's automatically eligible, isn't it?
>>> 
>>> Antony
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dr. Antony Green
>>> Rudolf-Seiffert-Str. 31
>>> WE 1703
>>> 10369 Berlin, Germany
>>> E-Mail: 
>>> toniogr...@web.de
>>> 
>>> Mobile: +49-176-82295920
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> 
>>> Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Antony Green
> Rudolf-Seiffert-Str. 31
> WE 1703
> 10369 Berlin, Germany
> E-Mail: 
> toniogr...@web.de
> 
> Mobile: +49-176-82295920
> 
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Re: [Langcom] Khowar Alphabets

[Michael Everson]

Mr Chitrali.

Please do not write to me privately. If you wish to address me, write to 
LangCom. 

I use the Mac OS and am an expert in Unicode and don't need to be told how to 
view Arabic characters on my computer. 

At the link you give below, there is displayed the alphabet of Khowar. It gives 
52 characters. They are these:

ا آ ب پ ت ٹ ث ج چ ح خ ݯ ݮ څ ځ د ڈ ذ ر ڑ ز ژ ݱ س ش ݰ ص ض ط ظ ع غ ف ق ک گ ل ڵ م ن 
ں و ٶ ﯘ ہ ھ ۃ ء ی ﺉ ے ۓ

This is not the same alphabet which is given at 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khowar_alphabet

As to how many people you have working on your Incubator project, I have given 
my recommendations to LangCom about it. 

Michael Everson

> On 12 Apr 2017, at 08:27, Rehmat Aziz Chitrali <rachitr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Mr.Michael Everson
> 
> My dear Michael
> 
> Thank you very much for your reply, If you are using mobile or windows 7 then 
> the special characters of khowar language will be not be visible, if you are 
> using Windows 8.7 then you can see the khowar special characters, please 
> recheck khowar alphabets in Windows 8.1 operating system here  
> Template:Wp/khw/کھوار حرور تہجی - Wikimedia Incubator 
> 
> Template:Wp/khw/کھوار حرور تہجی - Wikimedia Incubator
> 
>   I have translated more than 1000 system messages for Translate wiki for the 
> creation of Khowar wikipedia. Please seem my translations here User 
> contributions for Rachitrali - translatewiki.net and also contributed more 
> than 7000 khowar articles for Khowar wikipedia incubator project. please see 
> my contributions here User contributions for Rachitrali - Wikimedia Incubator 
> The are many editors working in this project.
> 
> User contributions for Rachitrali - translatewiki.net
> 
> 
> User contributions for Rachitrali - Wikimedia Incubator
> 
> 
> Please recommend to LangCom for creation of Wikipedia as there is sufficient 
> users working on this project. Due to technicalities one approved project 
> cannot be stalled or declined, so i request your goodself to help us for 
> creation of Khowar Wikipedia in the language spoken in Pakistan, Afghanistan, 
> India and Xinjing China. 
> 
> If you or LangCom need more information of proofs that shall be provided on 
> request.
> 
>  With Profound Regards
>  
> Rehmat Aziz Chitrali, Sanad-e-Imtiaz(Govt of Pakistan)
> Gold Medalist(Govt of Pakistan), Children Literature Awardee(Govt of 
> Pakistan), Inventor of 40 languages Text Editor, Inventor of Khowar Keyboard
> 
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 3:02 AM, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11 Apr 2017, at 04:55, Rehmat Aziz Chitrali <rachitr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > My dear brother
> > Mr.Michael Everson
> > 
> > Thank you very much for your email. With refernce to your observations that 
> > linguistically, you want to know why Rehmat Aziz Chitrali is not using the 
> > Unicode letters added specifically for Khowar in khowar wikipedia.
> > 
> > In this regard it is pointed out that we are using Khowar Unicode letters 
> > in khowar wikipedia, the complete alphabets alongwith special characters 
> > are here Wp/khw/کھوار آلیبے - Wikimedia Incubator for your kind information.
> 
> I do not see the four letters in question on that page. 
> 
> > Wp/khw/کھوار آلیبے - Wikimedia Incubator
> >  
> > I have translated more than 1000 system messages for Translate wiki for the 
> > creation of Khowar wikipedia and also contributed more than 7000 khowar 
> > articles for Khowar wikipedia incubator project. The are many editors 
> > working in this project. 
> 
> There does not seem to be evidence in support of this statement. 
> 
> I made my recommendations to LangCom about verifying the language content and 
> the editor interest of the Khowar Incubator project.
> 
> 
> Michael Everson
> 
> 
> >  With Profound Regards
> >  
> > Rehmat Aziz Chitrali 
> > Test Admin @KhowarWikipedia Incubator project
> 
> 


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Re: [Langcom] Khowar Alphabets

[Michael Everson]

On 11 Apr 2017, at 04:55, Rehmat Aziz Chitrali <rachitr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> My dear brother
> Mr.Michael Everson
> 
> Thank you very much for your email. With refernce to your observations that 
> linguistically, you want to know why Rehmat Aziz Chitrali is not using the 
> Unicode letters added specifically for Khowar in khowar wikipedia.
> 
> In this regard it is pointed out that we are using Khowar Unicode letters in 
> khowar wikipedia, the complete alphabets alongwith special characters are 
> here Wp/khw/کھوار آلیبے - Wikimedia Incubator for your kind information.

I do not see the four letters in question on that page. 

> Wp/khw/کھوار آلیبے - Wikimedia Incubator
>  
> I have translated more than 1000 system messages for Translate wiki for the 
> creation of Khowar wikipedia and also contributed more than 7000 khowar 
> articles for Khowar wikipedia incubator project. The are many editors working 
> in this project. 

There does not seem to be evidence in support of this statement. 

I made my recommendations to LangCom about verifying the language content and 
the editor interest of the Khowar Incubator project.

Michael Everson


>  With Profound Regards
>  
> Rehmat Aziz Chitrali 
> Test Admin @KhowarWikipedia Incubator project


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Re: [Langcom] Proposal to call André Müller as the new LangCom member

[Michael Everson]

> On 6 Apr 2017, at 12:24, Milos Rancic  wrote:
> 
> Andre, sorry for delay in responding...
> 
> May we add Andre to the list and welcome him as the new member of the 
> Language committee?

Add him already! 

M
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Re: [Langcom] Khowar Wikipedia

[Michael Everson]

Here are some of my observations:

1) As the biography tag notes, the article 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehmat_Aziz_Chitrali reads like a résumé. It has 
a lot of red links to his “notable works”. Check out the other languages it’s 
available in. A stub in Azerbaijani, Scots, Swedish, Fijian Hindi, and Waray; I 
didn’t check the links in Arabic script. He hotlinks Associate Fellowship to 
Honorary Degree and those things aren’t the same. 

2) The Khowar Academy page links the Academy’s home page to sites.google.com 
which isn’t very home-pagey. I mean, there’s no contact information for the 
Academy. It publishes books by RAC, so it says, on Scribd. 

3) The Khowar Language page gives a sample of a poem and makes sure to note the 
translator’s name and link to his article. It lists TV channels. I don’t know 
what languages they broadcast in. Khowar?

4) The Khowar Alphabet page… is not reliable. Once again it produces RAC’s 
translation of a verse of poetry, naming the translatr. It also reproduces an 
alphabet chart by him with 58 letters. It is poorly produced, attributed to 
RAC, and seems to map to the Wikitable list in the article. The article points 
to a (verified) Unicode proposal 
http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2006/06149-bashir-prop.pdf to add 4 characters for 
Knowar, NONE OF WHICH APPEAR in this article OR in the alphabet list at the top 
of the Khowar Wikipedia. 

Look, I’ve been accused of “coflict of interest” about the Wiki article about 
me. I wouldn’t criticize RAC out of spite. (My page is really out of date in 
terms of Evertype’s publishing activities which *are* notable in a multilingual 
sense.) But nothing in these four pages gives me confidence that there is a 
community of editors working on a Khowar Wikipedia. 

My recommendation is that LangCom tell him that his project will be dormant 
until we have confidence that 10 verifiable users are working on it. That’s a 
larger number than we normally give, but then it looks like there has been 
cheating going on. Even if there hasn’t been, the look is enough. RAC should 
work with Wikimedia Pakistan to get a grant to do a Translatathon or whatever 
they’re called, and get a real community going. But linguistically, I want to 
know why he’s not using the Unicode letters added specifically for Khowar.

That’s my view.
Michael Everson


> On 4 Apr 2017, at 06:17, Satdeep Gill <satdeepg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Read the email from Rehmat Aziz Chitrali
> 
> Regards
> Satdeep Gill
> 
> Strategy Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
> Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
> Treasurer, Affiliations Committee
> Member, Language Committee
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Rehmat Aziz Chitrali <rachitr...@yahoo.com>
>> Date: 4 April 2017 at 3:28:28 AM GMT+2
>> To: "satdeepg...@gmail.com" <satdeepg...@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Khowar Wikipedia
>> Reply-To: Rehmat Aziz Chitrali <rachitr...@yahoo.com>
>> 
>> Respected sir, as you know that I am test admin and tirelessly working since 
>> 2008 for creating wikipedia in khowar, i have contributed more than 7000 
>> edits in this project, i have translated most used interface msgs for this 
>> project. We are using Internet cafe to write articles for this project, if 
>> somebody is also using the same IP and contributing in khowar wiki project, 
>> then this is not my fault. On the basis of one IP address one project can 
>> not be declined after its approval, this is not fair, this is discrimination 
>> with the khowar community. The langcom to check these things before approval 
>> and before Phabricator task, we have already received many congratulations 
>> messeges for the approval of this project. This is embarrassing for the 
>> community. After approval we have issued to press release. I request you all 
>> to restore the phabricator task to its original position subject to the 
>> condition that the khowar community contribute more articles in khowar 
>> language within one month and complete the task, I assure you sir, trust me 
>> and give one month time to engage more regular contributors to complete the 
>> task. Your kind cooperation will be highly be appreciated. Please restore 
>> the Phabricator Task to its original position subject to condition that the 
>> Khowar Community shall contribute more ariticles and complete the task 
>> within one month Sharp. cheers and Regards
>>  
>>  With Profound Regards
>>  
>> Rehmat Aziz Chitrali 
>> Test Admin @KhowarWikipeid Incubator project
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Re: [Langcom] Sindhi in Devanagari

[Michael Everson]

"Should be” isn’t “is”. Proof before rejection.

> On 3 Apr 2017, at 21:30, Antony Green  wrote:
> 
> A user has pointed out 
> [meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Sindhi=16501764=16478916]
>  that online conversion between the two scripts should be possible (neither 
> script uses capital letters), so is there any reason we shouldn't just reject 
> this proposal?


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