RE: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
-Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rimantas Liubertas Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics Ok, let's take img src=linebreak.gif alt=Horizontal rule /. In visual media it will be horizontal rule, aural browser will announce it as image: horizontal rule. Is it any worse than just Horizontal rule? First, move beyond screen reading technology - web accessibility is way more than web pages for the blind. Believe or not, I am aware of it. Then why does everyone seem to be ignoring users of Lynx et al? These will not display any CSS adornments, nor any clever images, whether foreground or background. Surpisingly enough, the HR element will be rendered, in some manner, such that it is the only one of the methods described that will pass on to the user the Authors intention. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
My last email probably sounded too upbeat to merit acknowledgment, but for the record are we all agreed that a separator element is a good idea, just not in the form of hr? This is really getting out of hand. Very little new meaning circulating. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
separator does the job for me, as long as it is supported by screen readers - Rob On 07/02/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My last email probably sounded too upbeat to merit acknowledgment, but for the record are we all agreed that a separator element is a good idea, just not in the form of hr? This is really getting out of hand. Very little new meaning circulating. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Christian Montoya wrote: The section actually carries semantic weight, and is meant to be used carefully... the div does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_section Then again, XHTML 2 does have a separator element which is just like hr... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator But you will notice that XHTML 2 has both div and section, and div is weightless while separator is not. I am intrigued by this. There are those who believe HR is completely obsolete /on a semantic level/ because, as we all supposedly know, a document's semantic structure is divided entirely by headings. I would like to see if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone. Furthermore, surely these people should be horrified at the idea of sections and separators? Occasionally I get tempted to abide by these bizarre rules and create my heading minefield of a document that will satisfy these monsters when they switch to the ultimate view-source browsing experience, but use a display:none class to maintain readability by human beings with an existing culture of literature to consider. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Barney I can't recall ever finding the need to use an hr and never normally consider doing so. It is purely presentational, i.e. it draws a line across a page, nothing more, nothing less. It conveys nothing about what is above, below or indeed why indeed we have drawn a line. The major point of semantics is so that documents can be analysed by search engines, allowing us to reference later and obtain information (hopefully) with meaning. I realise HTML is never going to fully satisfy that, though I can't see us all recording data as RDF tuples full time in the near future. I suspect you will find that no meaning is ever attached to a br by a search engine, the only meaning that is attached to it, is one which has been made in the mind of the person who views the page, which is purely presentational and has nothing whatsoever to do with semantics . regards - Rob On 06/02/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: The section actually carries semantic weight, and is meant to be used carefully... the div does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_section Then again, XHTML 2 does have a separator element which is just like hr... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator But you will notice that XHTML 2 has both div and section, and div is weightless while separator is not. I am intrigued by this. There are those who believe HR is completely obsolete /on a semantic level/ because, as we all supposedly know, a document's semantic structure is divided entirely by headings. I would like to see if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone. Furthermore, surely these people should be horrified at the idea of sections and separators? Occasionally I get tempted to abide by these bizarre rules and create my heading minefield of a document that will satisfy these monsters when they switch to the ultimate view-source browsing experience, but use a display:none class to maintain readability by human beings with an existing culture of literature to consider. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Rob, I took Barney's point to be if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone OK! HR might be about markup not semantics and you have never had to use it, I am amazed that presentation has no importance at all and go back to Barney's comment. HR can also says how far above and below text will flow. It can end text after a floated element with clear:both. It is really useful for presentation for humans to divide information into sections. I don't give a rats if bots attach no meaning to it. Tim On 06/02/2007, at 9:38 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: Barney I can't recall ever finding the need to use an hr and never normally consider doing so. It is purely presentational, i.e. it draws a line across a page, nothing more, nothing less. It conveys nothing about what is above, below or indeed why indeed we have drawn a line. The major point of semantics is so that documents can be analysed by search engines, allowing us to reference later and obtain information (hopefully) with meaning. I realise HTML is never going to fully satisfy that, though I can't see us all recording data as RDF tuples full time in the near future. I suspect you will find that no meaning is ever attached to a br by a search engine, the only meaning that is attached to it, is one which has been made in the mind of the person who views the page, which is purely presentational and has nothing whatsoever to do with semantics . regards - Rob On 06/02/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The section actually carries semantic weight, and is meant to be used carefully... the div does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- structural.html#edef_structural_section Then again, XHTML 2 does have a separator element which is just like hr... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- structural.html#edef_structural_separator But you will notice that XHTML 2 has both div and section, and div is weightless while separator is not. I am intrigued by this. There are those who believe HR is completely obsolete /on a semantic level/ because, as we all supposedly know, a document's semantic structure is divided entirely by headings. I would like to see if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone. Furthermore, surely these people should be horrified at the idea of sections and separators? Occasionally I get tempted to abide by these bizarre rules and create my heading minefield of a document that will satisfy these monsters when they switch to the ultimate view-source browsing experience, but use a display:none class to maintain readability by human beings with an existing culture of literature to consider. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Tim Fine, I wouldn't say never use it, if that is the way you are inclined. However there is nothing it does that cannot be achieved by CSS in using border properties or background image properties. I really am one of those crackpots who does not believe in wasting a tag. If the tag does not impart meaning, I try not to use it. I actually once built a (albeit) small site without using div :0) - Rob On 06/02/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob, I took Barney's point to be if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone OK! HR might be about markup not semantics and you have never had to use it, I am amazed that presentation has no importance at all and go back to Barney's comment. HR can also says how far above and below text will flow. It can end text after a floated element with clear:both. It is really useful for presentation for humans to divide information into sections. I don't give a rats if bots attach no meaning to it. Tim On 06/02/2007, at 9:38 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: Barney I can't recall ever finding the need to use an hr and never normally consider doing so. It is purely presentational, i.e. it draws a line across a page, nothing more, nothing less. It conveys nothing about what is above, below or indeed why indeed we have drawn a line. The major point of semantics is so that documents can be analysed by search engines, allowing us to reference later and obtain information (hopefully) with meaning. I realise HTML is never going to fully satisfy that, though I can't see us all recording data as RDF tuples full time in the near future. I suspect you will find that no meaning is ever attached to a br by a search engine, the only meaning that is attached to it, is one which has been made in the mind of the person who views the page, which is purely presentational and has nothing whatsoever to do with semantics . regards - Rob On 06/02/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The section actually carries semantic weight, and is meant to be used carefully... the div does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- structural.html#edef_structural_section Then again, XHTML 2 does have a separator element which is just like hr... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- structural.html#edef_structural_separator But you will notice that XHTML 2 has both div and section, and div is weightless while separator is not. I am intrigued by this. There are those who believe HR is completely obsolete /on a semantic level/ because, as we all supposedly know, a document's semantic structure is divided entirely by headings. I would like to see if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone. Furthermore, surely these people should be horrified at the idea of sections and separators? Occasionally I get tempted to abide by these bizarre rules and create my heading minefield of a document that will satisfy these monsters when they switch to the ultimate view-source browsing experience, but use a display:none class to maintain readability by human beings with an existing culture of literature to consider. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Gosh Rob you are stingy with code, spiders must love your sites, but what about humans, do we also have standards for them or only for bots? Not a comma wasted, I am of the verbose variety. Cheers Rob :-) On 06/02/2007, at 10:24 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: Tim Fine, I wouldn't say never use it, if that is the way you are inclined. However there is nothing it does that cannot be achieved by CSS in using border properties or background image properties. I really am one of those crackpots who does not believe in wasting a tag. If the tag does not impart meaning, I try not to use it. I actually once built a (albeit) small site without using div :0) - Rob On 06/02/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I took Barney's point to be if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone OK! HR might be about markup not semantics and you have never had to use it, I am amazed that presentation has no importance at all and go back to Barney's comment. HR can also says how far above and below text will flow. It can end text after a floated element with clear:both. It is really useful for presentation for humans to divide information into sections. I don't give a rats if bots attach no meaning to it. Tim On 06/02/2007, at 9:38 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: Barney I can't recall ever finding the need to use an hr and never normally consider doing so. It is purely presentational, i.e. it draws a line across a page, nothing more, nothing less. It conveys nothing about what is above, below or indeed why indeed we have drawn a line. The major point of semantics is so that documents can be analysed by search engines, allowing us to reference later and obtain information (hopefully) with meaning. I realise HTML is never going to fully satisfy that, though I can't see us all recording data as RDF tuples full time in the near future. I suspect you will find that no meaning is ever attached to a br by a search engine, the only meaning that is attached to it, is one which has been made in the mind of the person who views the page, which is purely presentational and has nothing whatsoever to do with semantics . regards - Rob On 06/02/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The section actually carries semantic weight, and is meant to be used carefully... the div does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- structural.html#edef_structural_section Then again, XHTML 2 does have a separator element which is just like hr... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod- structural.html#edef_structural_separator But you will notice that XHTML 2 has both div and section, and div is weightless while separator is not. I am intrigued by this. There are those who believe HR is completely obsolete /on a semantic level/ because, as we all supposedly know, a document's semantic structure is divided entirely by headings. I would like to see if these people have ever swallowed their own medicine and then developed a site that satisfies anyone. Furthermore, surely these people should be horrified at the idea of sections and separators? Occasionally I get tempted to abide by these bizarre rules and create my heading minefield of a document that will satisfy these monsters when they switch to the ultimate view-source browsing experience, but use a display:none class to maintain readability by human beings with an existing culture of literature to consider. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines:
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Rob, I see where you're coming from - although it becomes easy at times like these to mythicise (why isn't that a word?) the benefit of having a document that requires no intelligent analysis. What I believe you're getting at... Is that 'horizontal rule' in itself does not 'mean' anything - it is off-putting because it is a tag whose name signifies a visual symbol which signifies an abstract value. Far better for all of us, I think, to have this replaced by the term 'separator' - which could be styled to appear as a horizontal rule if such is required of the medium the document is rendered in. The br element is slightly more complex, because 'break' is a more useful term. As it happens, the only application of a br is to separate objects with a line-break - which is made redundant because it is possible to customize just such an effect with the natural separation of the two elements it divides. If br could be styled, I would far prefer to use that then an hr. But we're all agreed, I hope, that having an element achieve this effect is much desired (even if it might be difficult for a machine to quickly interpret its value) - after all, it's long been in semantic use in human literature pre-ML. I think we're also all agreed that separation is a better name for such a thing. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
But we're all agreed, I hope, that having an element achieve this effect is much desired (even if it might be difficult for a machine to quickly interpret its value) - after all, it's long been in semantic use in human literature pre-ML. I think we're also all agreed that separation is a better name for such a thing. Separation separates something, but in case of div id=one/divdiv id=two.../div these divs are already separated—by being different divs :). If one wants to make separation more prominent—CSS is to rescue. I can see some use of HR in no CSS scenario, but this is more in theory than practice. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Barney Carroll wrote: [snip] What I believe you're getting at... Is that 'horizontal rule' in itself does not 'mean' anything - it is off-putting because it is a tag whose name signifies a visual symbol which signifies an abstract value. Far better for all of us, I think, to have this replaced by the term 'separator' - which could be styled to appear as a horizontal rule if such is required of the medium the document is rendered in. The br element is slightly more complex, because 'break' is a more useful term. As it happens, the only application of a br is to separate objects with a line-break - which is made redundant because it is possible to customize just such an effect with the natural separation of the two elements it divides. If br could be styled, I would far prefer to use that then an hr. But we're all agreed, I hope, that having an element achieve this effect is much desired (even if it might be difficult for a machine to quickly interpret its value) - after all, it's long been in semantic use in human literature pre-ML. I think we're also all agreed that separation is a better name for such a thing. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** br/? hr/? etc.How about p? What does p actually mean other than it's presentational attributes? For example, does: p Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus venenatis molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. /p p Nulla facilisi. Etiam vitae quam. Aliquam eget massa vitae pede tristique luctus. Maecenas iaculis suscipit felis. In lobortis wisi rutrum sem. Maecenas molestie ultricies mi. Mauris sit amet arcu. Aliquam erat volutpat. Praesent ullamcorper. Aenean feugiat erat in quam. /p 'Mean' any more than: Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus venenatis molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. Nulla facilisi. Etiam vitae quam. Aliquam eget massa vitae pede tristique luctus. Maecenas iaculis suscipit felis. In lobortis wisi rutrum sem. Maecenas molestie ultricies mi. Mauris sit amet arcu. Aliquam erat volutpat. Praesent ullamcorper. Aenean feugiat erat in quam. /p -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
im using HR's to separate two chapters of text for example. If the second one has no heading HR is a perfect choice. Making two divs of it ... why then not make a div for every paragraph? =) Besides i used to use HR as a clearer(clear:both) for the divs. In this case it perfectly separates navigation from content for a mobile browsers and for printers. Thats quite enought for me to use it. On 2/6/07, Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But we're all agreed, I hope, that having an element achieve this effect is much desired (even if it might be difficult for a machine to quickly interpret its value) - after all, it's long been in semantic use in human literature pre-ML. I think we're also all agreed that separation is a better name for such a thing. Separation separates something, but in case of div id=one/divdiv id=two.../div these divs are already separated―by being different divs :). If one wants to make separation more prominent―CSS is to rescue. I can see some use of HR in no CSS scenario, but this is more in theory than practice. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- С уважением и наилучшими пожеланиями, Юрий akella Артюх *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
im using HR's to separate two chapters of text for example. If the second one has no heading HR is a perfect choice. Making two divs of it ... why then not make a div for every paragraph? =) Because paragraph has got its own element. My point is that there very rarely is a need for any additional separator in case when elements are already marked up. div class=chapter h2Whatever/h2 p.../p p.../p ... /div div class=chapter h2Whoever/h2 p.../p p.../p ... /div Now you have both chapters marked up. In case of hr you would have only separator. Where are the boundaries of the stuff it separates? Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Beautifully put Bob, a latin scholar! span lang=lanon serviam!/span I will not serve and I will continue using HR tags to visually separate content, Tim On 06/02/2007, at 11:34 PM, Designer wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: [snip] What I believe you're getting at... Is that 'horizontal rule' in itself does not 'mean' anything - it is off-putting because it is a tag whose name signifies a visual symbol which signifies an abstract value. Far better for all of us, I think, to have this replaced by the term 'separator' - which could be styled to appear as a horizontal rule if such is required of the medium the document is rendered in. The br element is slightly more complex, because 'break' is a more useful term. As it happens, the only application of a br is to separate objects with a line-break - which is made redundant because it is possible to customize just such an effect with the natural separation of the two elements it divides. If br could be styled, I would far prefer to use that then an hr. But we're all agreed, I hope, that having an element achieve this effect is much desired (even if it might be difficult for a machine to quickly interpret its value) - after all, it's long been in semantic use in human literature pre-ML. I think we're also all agreed that separation is a better name for such a thing. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** br/? hr/? etc.How about p? What does p actually mean other than it's presentational attributes? For example, does: p Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus venenatis molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. /p p Nulla facilisi. Etiam vitae quam. Aliquam eget massa vitae pede tristique luctus. Maecenas iaculis suscipit felis. In lobortis wisi rutrum sem. Maecenas molestie ultricies mi. Mauris sit amet arcu. Aliquam erat volutpat. Praesent ullamcorper. Aenean feugiat erat in quam. /p 'Mean' any more than: Duis lobortis ultricies elit. Nunc et purus vitae risus venenatis molestie. Nullam scelerisque venenatis leo. Quisque sit amet leo at lacus rutrum iaculis. Sed auctor lorem eget nisl. Fusce pulvinar. Nunc varius pellentesque velit. Nulla facilisi. Etiam vitae quam. Aliquam eget massa vitae pede tristique luctus. Maecenas iaculis suscipit felis. In lobortis wisi rutrum sem. Maecenas molestie ultricies mi. Mauris sit amet arcu. Aliquam erat volutpat. Praesent ullamcorper. Aenean feugiat erat in quam. /p -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Sure - if you dont like this tag you could invent 1001 way of not using it. And im sure they all are right ways. But just ... why? I could see all html tags in almost every book. And i consider hr as something like *** between chapters. It appears in almost every book. And i dont think that it has something to do with _grouping_ content. I think it just _separates_. Dont you thinks so? On 2/6/07, Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: im using HR's to separate two chapters of text for example. If the second one has no heading HR is a perfect choice. Making two divs of it ... why then not make a div for every paragraph? =) Because paragraph has got its own element. My point is that there very rarely is a need for any additional separator in case when elements are already marked up. div class=chapter h2Whatever/h2 p.../p p.../p ... /div div class=chapter h2Whoever/h2 p.../p p.../p ... /div Now you have both chapters marked up. In case of hr you would have only separator. Where are the boundaries of the stuff it separates? Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- С уважением и наилучшими пожеланиями, Юрий akella Артюх *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
@Designer:
p separates text into individual blocks. It is used for the same
reason as we use spaces, commas, full-stops (periods), page breaks... A
paragraph should be self-contained in meaning. If you argue that this is
presentational, there's not much stopping you from making the leap to
the fact that text itself is purely a collection of signs which only
mean anything once interpreted on some level. I hope we can leave it at
this without getting into perceptive psychology and the ultimate
meaninglessness of life itself.
@Rimantas:
It only takes imagining any occurrence of a hr to make clear that your
example obviously isn't enough. Of course we don't want one of these
between all divs or ps. No-one has ever used it like this. It is
only because it is used as a distinct element that anyone acknowledges
its value. Horizontal rules do not necessarily divide chapters - and
neither do they divide all paragraphs in any instance I've seen.
You seem to be of the camp which maintains that use of the horizontal
rule as a visual device is never justified. I disagree.
*
If people were to say there should be such a thing as
p.breakFlow:after{display:block;height:1px;color:#00;margin:2em 0 0
2em} on the basis that there should not be such an 'object' in the
markup, I might be tempted to get into a discussion about semiotics. But
saying that a staple of human literary culture over the past 500 years
has been made obsolete by Google doesn't really merit acknowledgment in
my eyes.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Barney Carroll wrote: @Designer: p separates text into individual blocks. big [snip] Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** And that's different to div or span because . . .??? -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Bob Surely... divIs a collection of html elements which can include p pIs a collection of sentences spanIs a selection within a sentence of course only p has any semantic meaning, and from this small set of tags, is the only one of real consequence to search engines and readers alike. The others are actually collections convenient only for web designers to apply some form of presentational technique - Rob On 06/02/07, Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: @Designer: p separates text into individual blocks. big [snip] Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** And that's different to div or span because . . .??? -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Designer wrote: p separates text into individual blocks. And that's different to div or span because . . .??? Span is an in-line text divider, most of the time. It can be used to highlight all sorts of differences in text significance. Paragraphs are block level elements. A div-level separation usually means you are dealing with a very separate piece of text - one that is outside the flow of the rest of the document, and often not part of the'document' at all. Moreover it has no defined relationship to text - divs are much more free in their use. As Rob suggests, div and span are far looser in their interpretation than ps. @Akella: You mention divisions between chapters, Akella, but I am more familiar with such devices (the '*' format of horizontal rules in print) being used at levels lower than the chapter. In novellas they generally signify a distinct break of timeline or protagonist. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
@Barney Carroll you are completely right. Chapter was may be a wrong word. Anyway it has some separational meaning, and thats what w3c guys were keeping im mind while inventing it, IMO. There is a *separator* / for that purpose in XHTML 2.0 w3c: The separatorhttp://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separatorelement separates parts of the document from each other. On 2/6/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Designer wrote: p separates text into individual blocks. And that's different to div or span because . . .??? Span is an in-line text divider, most of the time. It can be used to highlight all sorts of differences in text significance. Paragraphs are block level elements. A div-level separation usually means you are dealing with a very separate piece of text - one that is outside the flow of the rest of the document, and often not part of the'document' at all. Moreover it has no defined relationship to text - divs are much more free in their use. As Rob suggests, div and span are far looser in their interpretation than ps. @Akella: You mention divisions between chapters, Akella, but I am more familiar with such devices (the '*' format of horizontal rules in print) being used at levels lower than the chapter. In novellas they generally signify a distinct break of timeline or protagonist. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- С уважением и наилучшими пожеланиями, Юрий akella Артюх *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Hi! From the HTML 4.01 specs: The P element represents a paragraph. A paragraph is a division of text that semantically belongs together. The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents. These elements define content to be inline (SPAN) or block-level (DIV) but impose no other presentational idioms on the content. Thus, authors may use these elements in conjunction with style sheets, the lang attribute, etc., to tailor HTML to their own needs and tastes. DIVs and SPANs have no semantic meaning. They can be used to divide the HTML document in groups that belong together, like navigation, content... The DIV element may contain other block elements, Ps may not, they can only contain text and inline elements. So P says more than DIV: It's a paragraph. The HR element causes a horizontal rule to be rendered by visual user agents. A horizontal rule is a visual divider. It has no semantic meaning, but can get some in the context. Like others mentioned it is one of the visual HTML elements that might be useful. I tend to don't use it though. regards Martin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Perhaps for another time and maybe a different group on English
language Barney, I would like to see a topic on the effect that Google
is inadvertently having on the English language, apart from linkfarms
being used to promote selling widgets, repeating keywords in level
heading and paragraphs, a Thesaurus to me seems like the crucifix to
the devil for google page rank.
It seems to me that what some people are really concerned about is that
you cannot stuff keywords into a HR tag?
Can we discuss in this group Google's effect on the English language,
promoting pagerank for compliance with their search algorithms.
Tim
On 07/02/2007, at 12:10 AM, Barney Carroll wrote:
@Designer:
p separates text into individual blocks. It is used for the same
reason as we use spaces, commas, full-stops (periods), page breaks... A
paragraph should be self-contained in meaning. If you argue that this
is
presentational, there's not much stopping you from making the leap to
the fact that text itself is purely a collection of signs which only
mean anything once interpreted on some level. I hope we can leave it at
this without getting into perceptive psychology and the ultimate
meaninglessness of life itself.
@Rimantas:
It only takes imagining any occurrence of a hr to make clear that
your
example obviously isn't enough. Of course we don't want one of these
between all divs or ps. No-one has ever used it like this. It is
only because it is used as a distinct element that anyone acknowledges
its value. Horizontal rules do not necessarily divide chapters - and
neither do they divide all paragraphs in any instance I've seen.
You seem to be of the camp which maintains that use of the horizontal
rule as a visual device is never justified. I disagree.
*
If people were to say there should be such a thing as
p.breakFlow:after{display:block;height:1px;color:#00;margin:2em 0 0
2em} on the basis that there should not be such an 'object' in the
markup, I might be tempted to get into a discussion about semiotics.
But
saying that a staple of human literary culture over the past 500 years
has been made obsolete by Google doesn't really merit acknowledgment in
my eyes.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
@Rimantas: You seem to be of the camp which maintains that use of the horizontal rule as a visual device is never justified. I disagree. I am in a slightly different camp, namely, I agree that there _may be_ the situation when HR is the most appropriate element, but I did not happen to came across such recently. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Tim wrote: Can we discuss in this group Google's effect on the English language, promoting pagerank for compliance with their search algorithms. Tim I'm pretty sure these people are never actually hired for the 'service' of their attitudes to the shape of documents to come, and as such I sleep easy at night. I don't know what has to happen to you for you to browse the web in browse-source mode and go Hang on, these nested divs are fine, but what's this non-functional empty element between paragraphs? - but I'm fairly certain those're a distinct minority compared to the deluded masses, who still rely on such outdated things as their experience of 'human languages', 'deductive reasoning' and 'sensory apparatus' to read stuff on the internet. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Tim On 06/02/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me that what some people are really concerned about is that you cannot stuff keywords into a HR tag? That is not the real concern from my perspective, it is simply a fact that it adds nothing other than a visual effect that can be achieved by other means in CSS. Words are everything on the web, without them we have no content and no meaning, and certainly things are being debased by people who keyword stuff - one of Barney's original points (display:none) . IMO, you are right in saying that there is a potential effect on the language. There will come a time when the books have been lost and all we have are web pages (or their equivalent). If a writing style has been developed to cater for the frequency of keywords, a certain subtlety to our language will have been lost. People might not care to read such articles, but then again may not be able to find anything other than in that style due to the working of search engines. It is a great passion of mine, the fact that we are creating a great pile of grey goo for our descendants, each day getting a little worse, hence my absolute fixation with semantics / standards and indeed my very terse style of mark up, as opposed to style of writing - Rob http://ele.vation.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Tim, As several other people have tried to explain, an HR is always used, in printed media, as a separator or divider of some sort. It may be abused for visual effect on the web, but in print it always has a semantic meaning, even if it can be a little subtle and hard to define. Nobody appear to be arguing that an HR should appear in every document, but where it is used in the same manner as it is used in print, it cannot adequately be simulated by CSS, and should not be either or the semantic meaning would be lost to text-only browsers, etc. I agree that words are important on the web, but they are not everything, and should not be. I am sure you are aware of Google's attempts to improve its image categorisation for example, and Video has ever-increasing importance. Therefore your implication that nothing can be added to bare words to create meaning is simply ridiculous. Regards, Mike From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Kirton Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics Tim On 06/02/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me that what some people are really concerned about is that you cannot stuff keywords into a HR tag? That is not the real concern from my perspective, it is simply a fact that it adds nothing other than a visual effect that can be achieved by other means in CSS. Words are everything on the web, without them we have no content and no meaning, and certainly things are being debased by people who keyword stuff - one of Barney's original points (display:none) . *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Mike Therefore your implication that nothing can be added to bare words to create meaning is simply ridiculous. Regards, Mike More likely it was me being ridiculous! I take on board your point about the importance of images / video, however surely Google 's understanding is only from the point of view of words we associate with a picture via a tagging mechanism ? Therefore words for the bot , rather than words for the user who in most cases can see the picture and draw on their own experiences for a definition of what they see. If I load a picture this afternoon onto a site, a simple jpeg image, will it know it is a red car, a red sports car or a red alpha romeo, only kidding it's actually a picture of a boy flying a kite. I would be greatly surprised if we *soon* have picture recognition that sophisticated and having the ability to provide us with a rich set of semantic detail. - Rob http://ele.vation.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
The face of standardisation that wants to drag every form of media into an indefinitely future-compatible world where everything is stripped down to the lowest common denominator of systematically-compartmentalised data... Has its place. But it often takes the romantics to keep it in there. You can't erase your ancestry! We're driving into the same argument that the 'Art and accessibility' thread died on - namely that only certain forms of information are legitimate on the internet. This is an awful stance to take. As far as possible, every element of information should be clearly labeled and understood even if the rendering device has no use for it... But if there is a problem with these ephemeral and hard-to-define elements, standardistas should use their sense of order and clear markup to help integrate these elements - attempting to remove them is futile, if anything it'll just result in them being used or simulated badly. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Rob Kirton wrote: More likely it was me being ridiculous! I take on board your point about the importance of images / video, however surely Google 's understanding is only from the point of view of words we associate with a picture via a tagging mechanism ? Therefore words for the bot , rather than words for the user who in most cases can see the picture and draw on their own experiences for a definition of what they see. Actually Google is working on face-recognition software. I have long been awaiting image search based on a sample image (as opposed to a text string)... And this is the first step. Facial recognition is actually less complicated because the science of facial features and depth within portrait photos are very easily constrained, standardised and computed. So no, the future isn't just a massive tag field (I bloody hope). Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
... But if there is a problem with these ephemeral and hard-to-define elements, standardistas should use their sense of order and clear markup to help integrate these elements - attempting to remove them is futile, if anything it'll just result in them being used or simulated badly. So, what's so bad with separators simulated with CSS. Con: you won't have them with CSS off. Pro: cleaner code, more flexibility. (http://rimantas.com/bits/hr/nohr.html was a quick example I made in May 2005, when similar discussion is going on some of w3 mailing list). I doubt that anybody is arguing against the visual separator per se. The way it comes to life is another matter. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Therefore your implication that nothing can be added to bare words to create meaning is simply ridiculous I never said that Mike check the posts or get it right when you say someone is being ridiculous. What are you talking about? I don't even understand the implication, it is ridiculous and I never said that at all so don't misquote me and try to imply that several others have tried to tell me something, I can see who is being ridiculous. Tim On 07/02/2007, at 3:16 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim, As several other people have tried to explain, an HR is always used, in printed media, as a separator or divider of some sort. It may be abused for visual effect on the web, but in print it always has a semantic meaning, even if it can be a little subtle and hard to define. Nobody appear to be arguing that an HR should appear in every document, but where it is used in the same manner as it is used in print, it cannot adequately be simulated by CSS, and should not be either or the semantic meaning would be lost to text-only browsers, etc. I agree that words are important on the web, but they are not everything, and should not be. I am sure you are aware of Google's attempts to improve its image categorisation for example, and Video has ever-increasing importance. Therefore your implication that nothing can be added to bare words to create meaning is simply ridiculous. Regards, Mike From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Kirton Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics Tim On 06/02/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me that what some people are really concerned about is that you cannot stuff keywords into a HR tag? That is not the real concern from my perspective, it is simply a fact that it adds nothing other than a visual effect that can be achieved by other means in CSS. Words are everything on the web, without them we have no content and no meaning, and certainly things are being debased by people who keyword stuff - one of Barney's original points (display:none) . *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Barney So no, the future isn't just a massive tag field (I bloody hope). I hope so too. I just don't thing it will be coming any time soon. Hence my thing about words and tags They've had difficulties with disambiguation of words in one language, I suspect pictures will prove to be very difficult. To quote your example, remember they've not only got to identify it is a face, but also identify it as being you or me !!! I've just looked to the right hand panel of my Gmail client and found an ad for LED belt buckles there (along with 2 for face recognition software), as a result of your last message :0) -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others : http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Rimantas Liubertas wrote: ... But if there is a problem with these ephemeral and hard-to-define elements, standardistas should use their sense of order and clear markup to help integrate these elements - attempting to remove them is futile, if anything it'll just result in them being used or simulated badly. So, what's so bad with separators simulated with CSS. Con: you won't have them with CSS off. Pro: cleaner code, more flexibility. (http://rimantas.com/bits/hr/nohr.html was a quick example I made in May 2005, when similar discussion is going on some of w3 mailing list). I doubt that anybody is arguing against the visual separator per se. The way it comes to life is another matter. Regards, Rimantas You are completely missing the point. It needs to be *MORE* than just visual for Accessibility reasons. While an hr / may not have any true semantic meaning (in a strict sense), it is structural none-the-less; it indicates a clean break between what proceeds it and what follows it. This concept is not hard to understand - it is neither ephemeral nor hard-to-define. However, it renders horribly in today's ultra-cool graphic interface designs, and so designers/developers shun it. And so the way it comes to life *is* important - it should be integral to the source code. The way it visually renders... Now that's where there is room for improvement. Just another perspective and $0.002 worth of opinion JF *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
You are completely missing the point. It needs to be *MORE* than just visual for Accessibility reasons. While an hr / may not have any true semantic meaning (in a strict sense), it is structural none-the-less; it indicates a clean break between what proceeds it and what follows it. This concept is not hard to understand - it is neither ephemeral nor hard-to-define. However, it renders horribly in today's ultra-cool graphic interface designs, and so designers/developers shun it. Very interesting and very unconvincing. For one, HR can be styled, so not too much problem for today's ultra-cool graphic interface. As for Accessibility I am really interested how HR helps it, and how it is rendered in non visual browsers, and is this the best way of doing it. And so the way it comes to life *is* important - it should be integral to the source code. The way it visually renders... Now that's where there is room for improvement. Ok, how about this improvement - give the section which must be separated from the previous one some meaningful header, but hide it with CSS, rendering only visual separator, like line, three stars, whatever. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
I am with Rimintas on this one. I don't think we'll all agree this. From where i am sitting a div causes a nice logical break as much as hr (without needing to use one) and the top / or bottom border can be styled to appear like a horizontal rule if required. div constructs are sometimes a lazy mechanism, and In some circumstances I'd probably be more inclined to style a class of p. If I wanted to view a page without any styling at all, I wouldn't particularly want to see a break appear across the page; though I do accept the counter argument to this in the un-styled case. - Rob On 06/02/07, John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rimantas Liubertas wrote: ... But if there is a problem with these ephemeral and hard-to-define elements, standardistas should use their sense of order and clear markup to help integrate these elements - attempting to remove them is futile, if anything it'll just result in them being used or simulated badly. So, what's so bad with separators simulated with CSS. Con: you won't have them with CSS off. Pro: cleaner code, more flexibility. (http://rimantas.com/bits/hr/nohr.html was a quick example I made in May 2005, when similar discussion is going on some of w3 mailing list). I doubt that anybody is arguing against the visual separator per se. The way it comes to life is another matter. Regards, Rimantas You are completely missing the point. It needs to be *MORE* than just visual for Accessibility reasons. While an hr / may not have any true semantic meaning (in a strict sense), it is structural none-the-less; it indicates a clean break between what proceeds it and what follows it. This concept is not hard to understand - it is neither ephemeral nor hard-to-define. However, it renders horribly in today's ultra-cool graphic interface designs, and so designers/developers shun it. And so the way it comes to life *is* important - it should be integral to the source code. The way it visually renders... Now that's where there is room for improvement. Just another perspective and $0.002 worth of opinion JF *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
John Foliot wrote:
You are completely missing the point. It needs to be *MORE* than just
visual for Accessibility reasons. While an hr / may not have any true
semantic meaning (in a strict sense), it is structural none-the-less; it
indicates a clean break between what proceeds it and what follows it. This
concept is not hard to understand - it is neither ephemeral nor
hard-to-define. However, it renders horribly in today's ultra-cool graphic
interface designs, and so designers/developers shun it.
I agree completely. I like your example, Rimantas, but there is indeed
meaning there, which is more than simply 'presentational' (unless you
define 'presentational' as whatever isn't fully digestible by your PDA).
Maybe you'd chose to answer this with an audio and braille stylesheet
containing p.s1:after{content:[separation]}... But I actually believe
all of this is way too convoluted a way of compensating for the fact
that something very simple is missing.
Besides, the separation does not occur within the pounds of that
paragraph. If the paragraph before or after the separation were to be
deleted, there is no immediate reason for the separation to disappear -
it is an object in its own right and deserves independence.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Rob Kirton wrote: I am with Rimintas on this one. I don't think we'll all agree this. From where i am sitting a div causes a nice logical break as much as hr (without needing to use one) and the top / or bottom border can be styled to appear like a horizontal rule if required. div constructs are sometimes a lazy mechanism, and In some circumstances I'd probably be more inclined to style a class of p. If I wanted to view a page without any styling at all, I wouldn't particularly want to see a break appear across the page; though I do accept the counter argument to this in the un-styled case. div class=separate-from-next pBlah blah blah/p pBlah blah blah/p pBlah blah blah/p /div !-- would-be separator -- div class=separate-from-previous pBlah blah blah/p /div Something like this, Rob? The thing is... When you say you don't particularly want to see page breaks if you're viewing a document unstyled... Are there any other breaks you would like to avoid? Perhaps a matter for custom CSS for those elements is more what you're after. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
John Foliot wrote:
Rimantas Liubertas wrote:
Very interesting and very unconvincing. For one, HR can be styled, so
not too much problem for today's ultra-cool graphic interface. As for
Accessibility I am really interested how HR helps it, and how it is
rendered in non visual browsers, and is this the best way of doing
it.
Last time I checked (and it *was* a while ago), styling the hr /
is not
that satisfying an experience - as I recall it required a fair bit
of junk
code to render satisfactory design aesthetics - but I can be
corrected
here if I am wrong. But you have hit on a key point - non-visual
browsers.
Since the hr / *is* a page element, it is announced and rendered
as such -
it is a Horizontal Rule - or break, in just about every user-agent
known to
mankind; it is one of the most basic of HTML constructs. There is
a reason
*why* you as a page author/content creator wants that line/
division/break
on screen - I mean it's not just there on a whim is it? And so,
ensuring
that the intent carries through to alternative user-agents is a
goal of
Universal Accessibility. We have the HTML tool to do this - the
hr / -
yes, it's ugly, yes' it's limiting, but, yes, it has more *meaning*
than
img src=linebreak.gif alt= /.
Ok, how about this improvement - give the section which must be
separated from the previous one some meaningful header, but hide it
with CSS, rendering only visual separator, like line, three stars,
whatever.
If inserting a meaningful Heading at that point in you content is
appropriate, then this is good (but why would you hide it from
some, and not
others? Would not the meaningful header also be of aid/assistance
to those
with cognitive load issues, those with lower comprehension or literacy
skills - perhaps ESL?). However, again, I will ask: if you are
using the
image to convey *any* kind of meaning what-so-ever, how are you
conveying
this meaning to alternative user-agents. It also means you must ask
yourself if there *is* a meaning to the break image (I submit that
there
probably is) or is it really just eye-candy. If it is being used
at the
bottom of a page/document then the argument for eye-candy would find
credence - if it is inserted into the middle of your content then
that
would be a harder argument to make.
**
Meanwhile, Rob Kirton wrote:
From where i am sitting a div causes a nice logical break as
much as
hr (without needing to use one) and the top / or bottom border
can be
styled to appear like a horizontal rule if required.
Except Rob, Adaptive Technology does not explicitly announce
divs, as
while they add structure, they have no inherent semantic meaning,
which the
hr / does. You may be able to style your div to visually render
separation of content, but that visual rendering does not carry
through to
non-visual browsers:
div.top {border-bottom: 1px red dotted;}
...means absolutely nothing to a screen reader.
And so again, my question/challenge remains - if you are adding a
visual
information clue to your content how are you extending that
information to
non-visual user agents?
JF
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Hooray! I've been watching this with my jaw hanging ever closer to
the ground...
To sum up:
div and span have NO semantic meaning and are transparent to
screen readers and (sans style) invisible in common browsers
while h*, p and hr all DO have semantic meanings:
h* indicates a new section which has a name/title and whose
importance is variable within the context of the document.
p is a paragraph
hr indicates the end of a section and/or beginning of a new section
with no name/title
In common browsers these are visually differentiated in their various
ways, and most (all?) human readers are so used to these visual
conventions that they absorb the semantic weight intuitively.
Meanwhile screen readers provide meaningful descriptions.
CSS can then play with the style of the presentation - but the choice
of style has nothing to do with semantics. Which I thought was
supposed to be the point.
br anyone?
Andrew
109b SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601
Cell: 352-870-6661
http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
instructions.
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Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
... Since the hr / *is* a page element, it is announced and rendered as such - it is a Horizontal Rule - or break, in just about every user-agent known to mankind; it is one of the most basic of HTML constructs. There is a reason *why* you as a page author/content creator wants that line/division/break on screen - I mean it's not just there on a whim is it? Thats my point: there must be the reason for such separation and I don't think that Horizontal Rule be it visual or aural. And so, ensuring that the intent carries through to alternative user-agents is a goal of Universal Accessibility. We have the HTML tool to do this - the hr / - yes, it's ugly, yes' it's limiting, but, yes, it has more *meaning* than img src=linebreak.gif alt= /. Ok, let's take img src=linebreak.gif alt=Horizontal rule /. In visual media it will be horizontal rule, aural browser will announce it as image: horizontal rule. Is it any worse than just Horizontal rule? If inserting a meaningful Heading at that point in you content is appropriate, then this is good (but why would you hide it from some, and not others? Would not the meaningful header also be of aid/assistance to those with cognitive load issues, those with lower comprehension or literacy skills - perhaps ESL?). Exactly. If separation is indeed that meaningful why not to use something more meaningful to announce it? However, again, I will ask: if you are using the image to convey *any* kind of meaning what-so-ever, how are you conveying this meaning to alternative user-agents. It also means you must ask yourself if there *is* a meaning to the break image (I submit that there probably is) or is it really just eye-candy. ... I still see HR as eye-candy or ear-candy. Ok, let's say you are reading the book for someone, and encounter the separator. What would you do? Say three stars follow, horizontal line follows, or just make a longer pause? So, if following section deserves own header - give it, if not - render longer pause in aural version, and some eye candy for visual media with CSS. If aural browser does not support pause-before properly: too bad. ... Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Hooray! I've been watching this with my jaw hanging ever closer to the ground... To sum up: div and span have NO semantic meaning and are transparent to screen readers and (sans style) invisible in common browsers hr indicates the end of a section and/or beginning of a new section with no name/title And div still does not indicate anything? Shall we stick a HR just to know where section begins and ends? The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents. These elements define content to be inline (SPAN) or block-level (DIV) but impose no other presentational idioms on the content. Thus, authors may use these elements in conjunction with style sheets, the lang attribute, etc., to tailor HTML to their own needs and tastes. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
So, if following section deserves own header - give it, if not -
render longer pause in aural version, and some eye candy for visual
media with CSS. If aural browser does not support
pause-before properly: too bad.
I think pause is just what screen readers would do at hr / - so why not
use it for its purpose?
So let's tomorrow discuss do we really need that weird non semantic br /.
Or we can just stick with span and span{display:block} ? =)
I think we still need br and hr. They are similar in a lot of ways.
--
С уважением и наилучшими пожеланиями,
Юрий akella Артюх
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Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
I think pause is just what screen readers would do at hr / - so why not
use it for its purpose?
Because we can style the div/whatever that would come after HR the
same way–to render
pause and that makes HR redundant, imho.
So let's tomorrow discuss do we really need that weird non semantic br /.
Or we can just stick with span and span{display:block} ? =)
I think we still need br and hr. They are similar in a lot of ways.
BR is tougher, I haven't made my mind about it yet :)
But for tomorrow I'll try my best to avoid discussing semantics
altogether, this
is not as bad as fluid vs. fixed or font-size, but it is close ;)
Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/
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Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
John
Thanks for the thought provoking contribution..
Except Rob, Adaptive Technology does not explicitly announce divs, as
while they add structure, they have no inherent semantic meaning, which
the
hr / does. You may be able to style your div to visually render
separation of content, but that visual rendering does not carry through to
non-visual browsers:
div.top {border-bottom: 1px red dotted;}
...means absolutely nothing to a screen reader.
And so again, my question/challenge remains - if you are adding a visual
information clue to your content how are you extending that information to
non-visual user agents?
JF
I must confess that I was working from the assumption that the horizontal
rule was in-fact eye candy, the purpose of which is to rest the eye by
forcing a small break. Not using hr myself [ I think this is where I
first came in :0) ], I have never tested this against a screen reader. We
now get down to usability issues for adaptive technology instead of the
boring old accessibility ones, that every body should know about. Would a
screen reader user prefer to have it read out that there was a horizontal
line (if they even have the concept what that is), or would they prefer to
just get on with the show and have the next paragraph or heading read to
them?
If it is announced as a break, and it is a suitable place to pause, to
prevent information overload, maybe it is a good idea.
I am a great believer that, If any images or spaces are just eye candy and
impart no real information, they should not be read out to screen reader
users, thank goodness for CSS.
- Rob
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Linking in with others : http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton
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RE: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Thats my point: there must be the reason for such separation and I don't think that Horizontal Rule be it visual or aural. Yet if you insert a visual separator into your document, there *is* a reason. There are as many reasons *for* doing this as for *not doing* this. And to discuss use-cases would drive this thread into the ground. I maintain that as a visual author/designer, if you are adding a visual separator to a document you must be doing it for a reason, and I ask again, how are you conveying that information to the non-visual user-agent? Ok, let's take img src=linebreak.gif alt=Horizontal rule /. In visual media it will be horizontal rule, aural browser will announce it as image: horizontal rule. Is it any worse than just Horizontal rule? First, move beyond screen reading technology - web accessibility is way more than web pages for the blind. Your suggestion of using an image with the alt text of Horizontal rule is bordering on silly. It harkens back to the days of img src=spacer.gif alt=*... And how many times have we encountered that in the past. It is a strange suggestion for a list that is supposed to be about Web Standards. You want a visually rich method of supplying a delimitating separator - we get that. In the interest of accessibility, how do you extend that meaning - as I again argue there *is* a meaning implied for it to be on your visually rendered page. If inserting a meaningful Heading at that point in you content is appropriate, then this is good (but why would you hide it from some, and not others? Would not the meaningful header also be of aid/assistance to those with cognitive load issues, those with lower comprehension or literacy skills - perhaps ESL?). Exactly. If separation is indeed that meaningful why not to use something more meaningful to announce it? Perhaps because not all separation is of that significance - yet it (your rule, or stars, or image) is there visually, so there must be *some* reason for it. I am not saying that it is the final solution, far from it, and I do not disagree that using h_ elements are an appropriate method of signifying section breaks, but again, there are times when that is or may not be appropriate. Refer to use-case note above. I still see HR as eye-candy or ear-candy. Ok, let's say you are reading the book for someone, and encounter the separator. What would you do? Say three stars follow, horizontal line follows, or just make a longer pause? Generally, that question must be taken in context. Of course I would not say three stars or horizontal rule follows, but I might pause, I might stop off (to resume later), or choose another action (for example, to discuss the preceding section with the listener before resuming). The point here is: That visual separator indicated that there was a break. Full stop. To fail to acknowledge this is simply being contrary, and not really adding anything to the discussion. So, if following section deserves own header - give it, if not - render longer pause in aural version, and some eye candy for visual media with CSS. If aural browser does not support pause-before properly: too bad. ... Hey, if I could find *ONE* commercially available screen reading technology that supported aural style sheets, then I would agree that *sometimes* this would be the way to go. Please name me one (just one) technology that supports aural CSS. JF *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Ok, let's take img src=linebreak.gif alt=Horizontal rule /. In visual media it will be horizontal rule, aural browser will announce it as image: horizontal rule. Is it any worse than just Horizontal rule? First, move beyond screen reading technology - web accessibility is way more than web pages for the blind. Believe or not, I am aware of it. Your suggestion of using an image with the alt text of Horizontal rule is bordering on silly. It harkens back to the days of img src=spacer.gif alt=*... And how many times have we encountered that in the past. It is a strange suggestion for a list that is supposed to be about Web Standards. If was not my suggestion. I just wanted to say, that hr is not that better than img Sorry if my English is too bad to make it clear. You want a visually rich method of supplying a delimitating separator - we get that. In the interest of accessibility, how do you extend that meaning - as I again argue there *is* a meaning implied for it to be on your visually rendered page. If I want that - I get it with CSS, styling one of the sections that are supposed to be separated. In this case HR is simply redundant in my eyes. The point here is: That visual separator indicated that there was a break. Full stop. To fail to acknowledge this is simply being contrary, and not really adding anything to the discussion. No. I'd say it this way: there was a break which was made visual by using separator. That is - it is break, shift in thought, whatever that comes first. Visual/aural representation of it comes second. Since I believe CSS is capable of rendering this visual representation, I maintain the point that HR is redundant. Hey, if I could find *ONE* commercially available screen reading technology that supported aural style sheets, then I would agree that *sometimes* this would be the way to go. Please name me one (just one) technology that supports aural CSS. http://dotjay.co.uk/tests/css/aural-speech/ - so we must wait for the results of JAWS test to show up. In any case, I still think that even with the lack of support for the aural CSS there are better ways to indicate break/separation than saying Horizontal rule. It just does not sound right to me (pun intended). Thanks for your thoughts, but I am out of this discussion :) Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Rob Kirton wrote: We now get down to usability issues for adaptive technology instead of the boring old accessibility ones, that every body should know about. Would a screen reader user prefer to have it read out that there was a horizontal line (if they even have the concept what that is), or would they prefer to just get on with the show and have the next paragraph or heading read to them? Well Rob, I'm not a huge fan of developing for technology - I prefer to develop to standards. However, yours is a good question. I'm not a daily user of Adaptive Technology, but I queried my buddy James (who *is* a daily user and trainer) about the hr / element, and the answer is, well, strange. First of all, this applies to JAWS, Window Eyes, and HomePageReader (and because of JAWS, by extension Connect Outloud), however this is not to be considered 'definitive', but merely what I can report. I cannot comment on how the Mac VoicOver technology works with Safari, but I know that then next gen Mac OS will take the screen reading to a next level (or so said the Mac evangelist/sales rep I saw do a presentation). Roger Johansson gives some feedback on the initial version of VoiceOver on his site [http://tinyurl.com/an2o3], but says nothing about the hr /. I cannot comment on other screen reading technology (such as found in Linux builds) either - but they *may* behave differently. (If anyone else can shed some light here, please speak up) Screen reader users will digest web content in different ways, as will most users. If the user allows the page to load and start reading from top to bottom, then surprisingly the hr / *is not* announced to the user. This is not affected by any user-setting that James was aware of, and it works the same way with the major screen readers discussed. However, if the user starts to arrow down, i.e. to scan through paragraphs (arrow down skips to the beginning of the next paragraph) and it encounters a Horizontal rule it will pause. You need to arrow down again to get to the next paragraph. [John] Normally, do you allow a page to read full out, or do you arrow down from paragraph to paragraph? [James] Depends on what I want to accomplish. If it's a page that I know I'm looking for specific information I'll skim it but if it's something like a news article or book i let it read in full. [John] How do you know if there is more content after the pause? Is there any way that you are advised that there is more content after that pause? [James] It is common knowledge that you should continue to arrow down until you hear the same paragraph repeated twice. (I then made a joke with James about common knowledge...) So... Now you (we) have an idea of how the element is digested today. Text only browsers will visually render the hr / in the traditional sense, and for small screen browsers, the hr / will scale to the width of the viewport, unlike images (if we need yet more arguments for the hr /) If it is announced as a break, and it is a suitable place to pause, to prevent information overload, maybe it is a good idea. I am a great believer that, If any images or spaces are just eye candy and impart no real information, they should not be read out to screen reader users, thank goodness for CSS. Well, I don't disagree, however, given what we now know, is the pausing deliberate, is it necessary? Why doesn't it pause all of the time? Should it? These are questions for the screen reader developers, I cannot answer, although I am surprised by the current inconsistency of the output. Given my fanaticism for Standards however, I will still argue that the *most appropriate* tool for separating two sections of content on the same page is the HTML based hr /, and I will cite no less than the W3C/WAI: WCAG 1 Priority 2-3.1 When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than images to convey information. Cheers! JF *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
So, what's so bad with separators simulated with CSS. Con: you won't have them with CSS off. Pro: cleaner code, more flexibility. (http://rimantas.com/bits/hr/nohr.html was a quick example I made in May 2005, when similar discussion is going on some of w3 mailing list). For me the con outweighs the pro; and your example actually demonstrates why I think HR is useful. Your example shows a page with clearly separate items of information - the design is giving unmissable cues that each paragraph is separated from the others. As such, your document's structure is reliant on the separator images to convey the correct meaning from the page. The integrity of the page's communication relies on the reader understanding that the three paragraphs are separated. Without CSS, you lose the separators. Your example embeds a key part of the communication in the CSS. The page should communicate the same thing with no CSS; and simply do it in a more pretty manner when CSS is applied. Separators do have semantic meaning, so when they occur we should use HR. It's just a pity the element is named according to how it is rendered, since that muddles things :) separator is a much better name for the element. For whatever another 2c is worth in this thread ;) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
On 2/6/07, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For whatever another 2c is worth in this thread ;) Actually, Ben, that's the 2c that convinced me that hr /s do have a raison d'etre. The tag truly is unfortunately named, though. Dan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
I love HRs,
I use seven different stylesheets and have a different background image
for each HR which is a very wide thin tiling pattern. Then you can have
different HRs for each style. I also use them to ensure clear breaks on
both sides. Explorer does not seem to support the background image in
HR , but it looks great in everything else.
HR.No1menuHR{display:block;height:6px;color:#FFCC66;margin-top:
20px;margin-bottom: 20px;background-image:
url(Logos/ABlackLine.jpg);}
HR.No1menuHR{display:block;height:6px;color:#FFCC66;margin-top:
18px;margin-bottom: 18px;background-image:
url(../Logos/AHorizrule.jpg);clear: both;}
I put new headings after the HR
Tim
On 06/02/2007, at 1:50 PM, Andrew Ingram wrote:
I've found myself wondering just what semantic meaning the hr tag
adds to a document. The typical usage is when you want to separate
sections of a page. The thing is that a hN tag indicates a new
section too. Another issue is that we generally seem to put them in
our markup then hide them using display: none which makes them
invisible to screen readers anyway. Is anyone actually gaining any
benefit from the hr tag other than people who browse with styles
disabled?
I always tend to structure my documents using clear headings and have
no obvious (to me) need for use of horizontal rules. When I write a
document in a word processor I never use horizontal lines to indicate
a new section, I use a new heading.
I guess what i'm asking is, if you structure a document correctly
should you ever need to use the hr tag?
One of these days i'm going to have to start a thread about something
other than simple curiosities :)
- Andrew Ingram
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Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
On 2/5/07, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've found myself wondering just what semantic meaning the hr tag adds to a document. The typical usage is when you want to separate sections of a page. The thing is that a hN tag indicates a new section too. Another issue is that we generally seem to put them in our markup then hide them using display: none which makes them invisible to screen readers anyway. Is anyone actually gaining any benefit from the hr tag other than people who browse with styles disabled? I think hr doesn't possess much for semantics. I never use them at all. I know new ideas have been proposed for future versions of (x)HTML, and one example would be XHTML 2 which has sections to separate parts of a page. That offers a lot more for semantics than just having hrs strewn about. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/5/07, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: one example would be XHTML 2 which has sections to separate parts of a page. That offers a lot more for semantics than just having hrs strewn about. What is the difference between the new section and a div ? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
On 06/02/07, Kat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the difference between the new section and a div ? Sections are typographical sections, divs are for adding extra structure. You can see divs as fuzzy semantically distinct content areas and sections as a textual semantical grouping. uri:http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#sec_8.8. uri:http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#sec_8.4. Also IIRC the hr is just renamed to separator in XHTML2, it doesn't go away entirely. uri:http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#sec_8.9. -- David liorean Andersson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HR tag and Semantics
On 2/5/07, Kat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/5/07, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: one example would be XHTML 2 which has sections to separate parts of a page. That offers a lot more for semantics than just having hrs strewn about. What is the difference between the new section and a div ? The section actually carries semantic weight, and is meant to be used carefully... the div does not. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_section Then again, XHTML 2 does have a separator element which is just like hr... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_separator But you will notice that XHTML 2 has both div and section, and div is weightless while separator is not. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
