Re: UPDATE: Re: [uf-discuss] global editorial changes to the wiki - please avoid, and blocking

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Tantek,

On May 1, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:
AndyMabbett and Gazza, apologies for the inconvenience of the  
temporary
blocking.  Thanks very much for your patience.  Blocks have been  
removed.


Wow, that was fast.  Thanks for the quick resolution.

Best wishes,
-- Ernie P.



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Re: [uf-discuss] global editorial changes to the wiki - please avoid, and blocking

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Tantek,

On May 1, 2007, at 8:17 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote:

I apologize for the summary blocking without warning, but it is
unfortunately the required response to summary global editing of  
the wiki

without warning.


I appreciate that these are difficult decisions to make, and that you  
at times need to make seemingly arbitrary decisions to protect the  
health of the community.


However, while I appreciate the need to keep things as lightweight  
and agile as possible, I really do think it would be healthier if we  
some minimal but clear guidelines for what constituted appropriate  
behavior, so that you didn't need to act "summarily."


Since this is clearly off-topic, I would love to hear what others  
think (either pro or con) on the wiki page:


http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues#Petition

Thanks,
-- Ernie p.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Legal implications of using Microformats

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

On May 1, 2007, at 11:29 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

It's telling that the "Project:Copyrights" link is to a page which  
has yet to be created.


Yeah, that's pretty embarrassing. Can anyone comment on whether the  
edit blurb is inaccurate, or someone just forgot to create the  
Copyright?


-- Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] Authority (was: Text::Microformat - a uf parser for Perl)

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Andy,

On Apr 28, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

I can't  prevent people from calling cats "dogs" either, but I'm
certainly  going to say something when it happens.


This isn't case of people calling cats "dogs"; it's closer to the
dispute over whether a Jack Russell Terrier is a breed or a mongrel.


Trust  me -- you don't want to offend the Jack Russell lobby. :-)

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/jackrussellterrier.htm

In fact, the analogy is actually pretty apt.  A breed association is  
nothing more than an association of people who are passionate about  
something to they point where they have decided to pursue and defend  
a particular definition.  Sure, eventually they get registered by the  
AKC so we recognize them as a "official", but the passionate pursuit  
exists (and is considered legitimate) even before the formal  
recognition. In fact, it is the very purity of their definition which  
entitles them to formal recognition.


Something to think about...

-- Ernie P.

http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm
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Re: [uf-discuss] Authority (was: Text::Microformat - a uf parser for Perl)

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Andy,

On Apr 27, 2007, at 11:21 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Dr. Ernie
Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


That's a point-of view, but not a definitive fact. Who says it's
not a microformat? With what authority?


Um, is there any authority you *would* accept for that usage?


It doesn't matter what I do, or would, accept; it's what the wider
public would accept which is at issue.


Well, that's the experiment we are currently performing: to see  
whether we (the microformats.orf community) can encourage the outside  
world to accept our definitions of microformats vs. POSH and semantic  
HTML.  You may not think we'll succeed, but I don't see that as a  
reason not to try.


-- Ernie P.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Best practice for the abbr pattern

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Jeremy,

On Apr 27, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Jeremy Keith wrote:
However, the datetime can also be written with dashes and colons  
like this:


title="2007-03-12T17:00:00"

http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern

Would everyone agree that, for the sake of screen reader users, we  
should update the wiki to strongly encourage this more verbose  
version of datetimes and strongly discourage the contracted version?


Can you confirm that:

a) This will in fact solve the screen reader problem

and

b) This still conforms with all the relevant W3C recommendations


If so, then I'd agree with you, as the hyphenated version is also  
more human-readable, and thus seems in keeping with microformat  
philosophy.


-enp




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Re: [uf-discuss] Authority (was: Text::Microformat - a uf parser for Perl)

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Andy,

On Apr 26, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
That's a point-of view, but not a definitive fact. Who says it's  
not a microformat? With what authority?


Um, is there any authority you *would* accept for that usage?

The "common usage" on this list is that "microformats" is best  
applied that markup which follows the microformat process:



http://microformats.org/wiki/process


and that other forms of semantic markup should be referred to as  
"semantic HTML" or POSH.


I realize you may not like that distinction, and we may or may not  
have any ability to enforce that, but I think it is only reasonable  
for us to attempt to enforce community standards, if only through  
peer pressure.



What happens if Microsoft or Mozilla (or both together) announce that
the next version of their browser(s) will support "microformat X",  
with

a specification for marking up, say, play-lists (or whatever), what
makes you think they and their users would pay any heed to  
protestations here?


In my experience, many people in organizations like Mozilla actually  
care a great deal about community precedent -- and the wishes of the  
original authors of a term -- whether or not it is enforced in formal  
governance structures.


I like to think of it as "common courtesy", though I suppose on the  
Internet that's an oxymoron. :-P


- Ernie P.



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Re: [uf-discuss] Geo deployed on Wikipedia.

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

The later is now done - every singe Wikipedia article which publishes
coordinates (and that includes, cities, neighbourhoods, transport
stations, hotels, hospitals, mountains, museums, etc. etc.) using a
template (and there are many thousands) now includes Geo ;-)


Yeah!  This is a real milestone.  Great job, Andy.

-enp

On Apr 2, 2007, at 6:15 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Andy Mabbett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


I've just added:

 


Geo to Wikipedia's GeoTemplate:



Work to add Geo to the individual articles is ongoing.


The later is now done - every singe Wikipedia article which publishes
coordinates (and that includes, cities, neighbourhoods, transport
stations, hotels, hospitals, mountains, museums, etc. etc.) using a
template (and there are many thousands) now includes Geo ;-)

Templates which use titles in the coordinate template will be attended
to shortly.

I'm indebted to Wikipedia user "Quarl" for working with me on the
implementation.


Examples (showing a variety of formats and uses):







In a related project, I and others are working to add coordinates  
to all

the articles, about places, which don't yet have them.

--
Andy Mabbett
*  Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  www.no2id.net/>

*  Free Our Data:  
*  Are you using Microformats, yet: microformats.org/> ?

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[uf-discuss] OT: Governance (WAS: Free Andy Mabbett!) [with two 't's]

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

On Mar 19, 2007, at 7:53 AM, Dr. Ernie Prabhakar wrote:

Therefore, I believe that the administrators ought to either:
a) remove his moderation constraint
or
b) publicly state why they are not removing it
http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues


On Mon Mar 19 07:34:50 PST 2007, Tantek Çelik wrote:

I've created a wiki page to track opinions on this discussion offlist:

 http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-list-unmoderation

Please add your input there, and do not follow-up/reply to this  
thread.


I appreciate Tantek's indulgence for my off-topic post, and his  
prompt response.  However, despite the overwhelmingly positive vote,  
Andy's moderation does not appear to have been removed, nor has any  
explanation been given.


Again, I fully believe in the good intentions of the leadership, and  
respect the busyness of their schedules. However, independent of  
their position on Andy, I feel they owe *the community* a little more  
respect for our expressed opinion.


Then again, maybe that's just me.  Let me know (one way or the other)  
at:


http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues#Petition

In deference to Tantek's wishes, please follow up there (on the wiki)  
rather than here (on email).


Sorry for the interruption. We now return you to your regularly  
scheduled hCard.


Penitently yours,
-- Ernie P.

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[uf-discuss] OT: Free Andy Mabbet!

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

With only two weeks left in Lent, I still haven't done enough  
penance, so I figure I need to up the ante. :-)


I didn't see any response to my governance proposal , so let me make a more specific request.  I  
for one fully supported the decision by the list administrators to  
place Andy under moderation, given his behavior at the time. However,  
Andy has since done a heroic job of making many useful contributions  
despite the painful constraints he's been forced to live under; and,  
as far as I know, he's avoiding commenting in an off-topic manner.


Therefore, I believe that the administrators ought to either:

a) remove his moderation constraint

or

b) publicly state why they are not removing it

I am all for strong leadership, but I also believe it must be  
publicly accountable to avoid degenerating into tyranny.


Does anyone else agree?

Respectfully yours,
-- Ernie Prabhakar

P.S.  Again, I apologize if this is off-topic for this list, but I  
couldn't find any better place to air my concerns, which is why I  
think we need a dedicated list for such matters


http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues

If anyone can suggest a better mechanism, please let me know.


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[uf-discuss] Governance proposal (WAS: issue rejection governance)

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:39 PM, James Craig wrote:
I am not implying the uf group step to the deliberation level of  
ISO or the W3C, but some issues should not be noted as REJECTED by  
an individual, at least not without fair consideration and voting.  
If this process exists, or if there is a process for rejection  
APPEAL, it needs to be documented. If it does not exist, it needs  
to be defined.


I agree. This issue has come up several times before, but never seems  
to have gotten traction.  So (as part of my Lenten penance :-) I've  
finally decided to take the bull by the horns and put together a  
proposal for addressing the various governance-related questions that  
have been raised:


http://microformats.org/wiki/governance-issues

This may not be a perfect solution, but I really feel we need to do  
*something*.  If nothing else, hopefully this wiki page will help  
capture our current "best thinking", as well as the pros and cons of  
various concrete proposals.


I've also started capturing the "known" governance facts at:

http://microformats.org/wiki/governance

Hopefully someone can add links to any extant policies that we  
already have.


Best,
-- Ernie P.

P.S.  Apologies if this isn't the optimal format, but I haven't heard  
anyone suggest a more constructive approach, and this seems most in  
keeping with how we resolve other issues.






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Re: [uf-discuss] OpenID

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Christopher,

On Feb 20, 2007, at 7:00 PM, Christopher St John wrote:

Check out the 2.0 spec. There are some changes:

 http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0-11.html

It introduces XRI into the mix (think brand new, non-DNS
naming system) Wouldn't expect it to work so well in an 


While I do share your concerns to some extent, I'm a bit more of an  
optimist.  While I personally find XRI's wacky, if they're  
interpretable as the "path" behind some XRI Proxy Resolvers, they're  
not much different than any "normal" URL:


http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0-11.html

If the identifier is an XRI, [XRI_Resolution_2.0] (Wachob, G.,  
Reed, D., Chasen, L., Tan, W., and S. Churchill, “Extensible  
Resource Identifier (XRI) Resolution V2.0 - Working Draft 10,” .)  
will yield an XRDS document that contains the necessary  
information. It should also be noted that Relying Parties can take  
advantage of XRI Proxy Resolvers, such as the one provided by  
XDI.org at http://www.xri.net. This will remove the need for the  
RPs to perform XRI Resolution locally.



I take an "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"
approach to new internet-scale naming systems, and remain
something of a skeptic. Certainly 2.0 is no longer paving the
cow paths. YMMV, etc.


Yeah, it is an extra step, and obviously they won't work as HTML  
anchors, so I wouldn't want to use them.  But, the XRI folks -- and  
the SAML folks -- have been working at this for a long time, so  
there's always a chance they know something we don't, so I'm glad  
OpenID 2.0 is opening up to let them "into the fold."  As long as  
they don't add too much complexity into the core, open extensibility  
seems the way to go.


-- Ernie P.



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Re: [uf-discuss] Puzzled about the value of XOXO

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Roger,

The point of XOXO is that you can trivially encode arrays and  
dictionaries in straight HTML.  In particular, you can use it as an  
alternative to, e.g., JSON, for generic data structures:


http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/datatypes

Somebody's even written a whole blog about such uses:

http://blogxoxo.blogspot.com/

Sure, the fact that something is a list may seem like a trivial  
semantic to you, but it is quite powerful in the right context.


Hope this helps,
-- Ernie P.



On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:


Hi Folks,

I have read the Wiki on XOXO and as I understand it, the XOXO
microformat has no properties, it is simply a classname to be used at
the top of a list, e.g.,


...
...
...


Question #1

Is that all there is to the XOXO microformat?

I am puzzled how the XOXO microformat helps enrich the semantics of  
the
list.  After all, the "ul" indicates it's a list.  The XOXO doesn't  
add

any new information.

Question #2

What is the value of XOXO?

/Roger

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[uf-discuss] Re: Moderation & Governance

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Joe,

On Feb 2, 2007, at 8:22 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote:
Third, although few people like a gadfly, it appears that my  
efforts are

making some sort of difference, as evidenced by the IRC above and
changes to the wiki. Following Ben's argument, all evidence  
suggests my

opposition is "working".

That said, I do take your criticisms to heart and will make an  
effort to

be more diplomatic.  I think there is an opportunity for uF to thrive.
It is instead alienating, based on feedback I've received, not only  
from

Andy, and not only through this list. We can do better.


I do welcome your efforts to be a gadfly, and I welcome even more  
your commitment to be more diplomatic. :-)


I also encourage people to post suggestions/votes/data on the  
relevant wiki pages, to help push us towards a constructive solution:


* http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_Who_controls_microformats.3F
* http://microformats.org/wiki/issues#Governance_Issues

I would also like to revive the idea of a "meta-discuss" list to  
handle governance and other non-technical issues.  This appears to be  
off-topic for the current wiki page on mailing lists for new  
micorformats:


* http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists-proposals#microformats-meta

So, can anyone suggest the appropriate venue for proposing/discussing  
that?


-- Ernie P.



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Re: Moderation [was RE: [uf-discuss] Andy Mabbet's moderation]

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Joe,

On Feb 1, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote:

Or, if taking Andy off moderation has simply been overlooked, ok.
Mistakes happen. In which case he should be allowed to post  
normally and
we should remember as a community that we don't have the  
wherewithal to

manage fine-tuned corrective procedures.


I agree with the concerns about latency, and would welcome feedback  
from Tantek et al about the status of Andy's "probation" (or whatever  
you want to call it).


Overall, I think the moderators have done a decent job of keeping him  
in the loop, but (like everything else in this world), it hasn't been  
perfect, so it would be good to know whether it is still considered  
necessary.


-- Ernie P.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Process Mailing List?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

On Jan 26, 2007, at 5:18 AM, David Janes wrote:

Can we re-open the discussion about starting something like
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"?

We can hopefully quarantine some of these early discussion away from
the normal signal/noise on the discuss list.


+2

+1

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[uf-discuss] Re: On emergent policy and self vs governance in common

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Chris,

On Jan 6, 2007, at 2:45 AM, Chris Messina wrote:


 I think the point is that anyone should be able to build out and see
through the execution and development of a microformats, potentially
entirely outside of this list, simply by religiously adhering to the
principals by which we govern ourselves and allow ourselves to be
governed.


I think this was a brilliant post, and I'm tempted to agree, but I'm  
not entirely sure what you're asking for!


I completely agree that we should allow -- nay, encourage --  
microformat-like discussions and proto-standards to emerge and prove  
their viability that don't qualify as "microformats" under the  
current Tantek-inspired definition.


However, my preference would be that they:

a) be developed outside this particular list
b) don't call themselves microformats

If you're okay with those two constraints, then you have my full  
support, but I'm not sure exactly what you're asking for.  What would  
make sense to me is to:


a) Promote the term "semantic HTML" for microformat-like specifications
b) Somebody volunteers to provide lists and wiki hosting services for  
alternate communities

(this could even be microformats.org, under a different namespace)
c) Various individuals who have a concrete vision for non-microformat  
development -- and are prepared to enforce it! -- create communities  
on those alternate sites
d) Microformats.org creates a meta-discuss mailing list where  
governance and the evolving relationship to its rhizomatic cousins   
is "on-topic"


Is that in line with your vision?

-- Ernie P.

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[uf-discuss] Governance Issues Re: Banning for meta-discusion

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:42 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:
That being said, I still believe it is important to track *any*  
outstanding
issue - even meta-issues like governance, so that we as community  
don't
forget them, and have the opportunity/reminder resolve them, even  
if it

takes a while.  I encourage you to add such issues that you see to the
general issues page:

 http://microformats.org/wiki/issues


Okay, I've done my best to follow the format there and add a formal  
issue around "Governance":


http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-issues#Governance_Issues

Hopefully others can expand/clean it up as necessary.

For the record, while I completely agree with Colin that we would  
benefit from a more transparent (and perhaps slightly gentler)  
process, I deeply appreciate Tantek's courage, humility, and  
graciousness in attempting to deal with this situation.  I too have  
had to moderate mailing list disputes [1], and I know how difficult  
it is to find the right balance between helping people feel "safe"  
and ensuring they feel "free."  We may never get it right (so I  
second the call for a meta-list :-), but I feel very privileged to be  
part of a community that hasn't stopped trying.


-- Ernie P.

[1] Moderator's Verdict: The Justice of Comedy 

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Re: [uf-discuss] 'wiki' management, uF style

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Andy,

On Jan 3, 2007, at 3:38 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
I recommend you voluntarily refrain from emailing microformats  
lists for 24
hours at this point.  One more meta-discussion email from you  
after you have

been asked to stop will be grounds for banning from the lists.


"Voluntary refraining" under threat of a ban is not voluntary - or are
we not speaking the same language?


For what it is worth, *I* think his meaning is pretty clear.

a) You are treading on thin ice

b) One more inappropriate post and you *will* be banned

c) Given that you seem to have a poor sense of what Tantek (and  
others) consider off-topic, it would be wise for you to take at least  
24 hours off to let things cool down.


I do value some of the contributions you have made, but I agree with  
Tantek that it would be healthier for the community if you took a break.


If you are sincerely confused about why you've gotten the reaction  
you have, feel free to email me offlist.


Cheers,
-- Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] More reverts on the 'wiki'

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Andy,

On Dec 12, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

Are the "community" happy for extra restrictions to be added to the
'wiki' in this unilateral way? Or is the "community's" ownership of  
work

on microformats and its 'wiki' a myth?


Speaking for myself, I am grateful for Tantek's leadership (as well  
as that of Ryan and Kevin).  I don't always agree with his decisions,  
but having run various mailing lists myself over the years I know how  
difficult the task is, and so far I haven't really seen anything I  
consider completely inappropriate -- including the examples you cite.


I'm able to do what I need to do, and I've learned to live within the  
boundaries that Tantek and the others have established.  If I ever  
want to do something beyond those boundaries, I think it only fair  
that I do the hard work of creating my *own* community.


-- Ernie P.

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Re: class="hack"? Re: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Bruce,


My point, Ernie, is there's no obvious way to map it onto a model. I


Um, maybe I'm not quite understanding what you mean by "model". Are  
you saying that there's no way to create a generic parser that  
transforms the microformatted data into a normalized form?


What you may not realize (I didn't at first either) is that  
microformats.org is -- by *definition* -- optimizing for a world  
there are only a "handful" of discrete microformats.  Thus, there is  
no point in worrying about the general case; there are only special  
cases, and a relatively small number of those.


You may not believe or agree with that definition (not all of us do  
either :-), but that's the rules we play by here.  If you want a more  
generic approach, you might be happier with GRDDL.


Cheers,
-- Ernie P.

On Dec 8, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:


On 12/8/06, Dr. Ernie Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Dec 8, 2006, at 4:04 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> Likewise, using class to indicate both properties and, um,  
class, is

> also a hack.

I think that's probably where we part company.   I suspect most of us
here consider the use of HTML "class" for semantic information fully
in line with the both the letter and spirit of the spec, and thus an
entirely natural usage.


My point, Ernie, is there's no obvious way to map it onto a model. I
don't think that's such a controversial thing to say. We've got tables
and columns (RDBMSes), resources and properties (RDF), objects and
attributes (oo). Class and ... ?

Bruce
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class="hack"? Re: [uf-discuss] Comments from IBM/Lotus rep about Microformats

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Bruce,

On Dec 8, 2006, at 4:04 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

Likewise, using class to indicate both properties and, um, class, is
also a hack.


I think that's probably where we part company.   I suspect most of us  
here consider the use of HTML "class" for semantic information fully  
in line with the both the letter and spirit of the spec, and thus an  
entirely natural usage.


If you consider *that* an unfortunate hack, then we're probably  
arguing from fundamentally different premises and unlikely to reach  
any sort of meaningful conclusion. :-)


Cheers,
-- Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] cheat-sheets, rekeyed

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Andy,

On Dec 5, 2006, at 2:21 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:cheatsheet-key


Sensible, but I don't like the table borders.


This makes it easier to keep everything consistent, but results in
unused items being present on some pages.
The tradeoff seems worthwhile to me -- what do the rest of you think?


Mention the unused key entries in the "Notes"?


I see your point, but am unsure what would look best.  Feel free to  
experiment...


-enp

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Re: [uf-discuss] New Microformats Cheatsheet PDF

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Brian,

On Dec 5, 2006, at 1:40 PM, Brian Suda wrote:

--- i think there was an reason why i didn't use ?, +, * (but i can't
remember at the moment). The "One or More" is the UTF "currency sign",
for me it is sort of emtpy circle with a cross through it - if they
are too similar, i can look into switching them. Part of the issue
with ?,+,* is how to you represent just "required" in REGEX simply
having a char there makes it exist, but on the chart it is slightly
more difficult.

I'm certainly open to making things clearer so let me know what you  
think.


I think using "x" for required is reasonable, since it does have the  
connotation of "present."
 If you replace the funky currency sign with "+", and make "?" the  
'One Optional' character, I think it should work, right?


-- Ernie P.
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Re: [uf-discuss] cheat-sheets, rekeyed

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

Okay, I've added a Perl-style '{1}' for elements that must appear  
only once:


http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-cheatsheet

I also rephrased "default rules" as:


# if absent, defaults as described at hatom#Entry_Author


I'm not happy with that, but it seems a slightly clearer clue.  Any  
suggestions?


Also, I decided to make the Key its own template:

http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:cheatsheet-key

This makes it easier to keep everything consistent, but results in  
unused items being present on some pages.

The tradeoff seems worthwhile to me -- what do the rest of you think?

-- Ernie P.

On Dec 5, 2006, at 12:54 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Dr.
Ernie Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


At Andy's invitation, I redid all the cheatsheets to use a common,
regex-style key



Your changes to the cheat-sheet key have restored the problem to which
my changes were a solution; emboldened text alone is not recognised by
assistive technology and text-only browsers. Please reintroduce a
secondary indicator, as I had done. Thank you.

--
Andy Mabbett
Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  www.no2id.net/>


Free Our Data:  <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>
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Re: [uf-discuss] New Microformats Cheatsheet PDF

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Brian,

On Dec 5, 2006, at 5:07 AM, Brian Suda wrote:

All comments, suggestions, etc. are welcome.

http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/cheatsheet/


Beautiful work; I love the table on the right!

One question:  why not use "?" for single occurence optional, and "+"  
for one or more, like Perl (and I) do. I actually can't figure out  
what character you use for "One or More" -- or is that a rendering  
error?


-- Ernie P.

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[uf-discuss] cheat-sheets, rekeyed

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

At Andy's invitation, I redid all the cheatsheets to use a common,  
regex-style key:


http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:cheatsheet-key

Specifically:

http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-cheatsheet
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-cheatsheet

I also tried to clean them up for consistency, e.g., removing  
"class=" which some of them had.  When in doubt, I erred on the side  
of legibility.


However, there were a few irregularities I didn't understand, and  
thus didn't clean up:


* Why are some class names italicized?  Are those all for "0 or more"  
classes?


* Why does hCard have so many parentheticals?  Should that be in  
notes, or do we need a better syntax for them?


* What exactly does "default rule" mean in the hatom cheat?

* In hAtom, what is the cleanest way to indicate that the use of  
"rel" instead of class?


Suggestions?

--- Ernie P.




On Dec 4, 2006, at 11:18 AM, David Janes wrote:


Cool. I made a few changed to the hAtom page, hopefully keeping the
spirit of the thing.

On 12/4/06, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I have created two more "cheat sheets":





Please can someone check their accuracy?

Thank you.


--
Andy Mabbett
Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  www.no2id.net/>


Free Our Data:  
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http://www.onamine.com
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Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO and Extra Markup

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Ryan,

Sure, whatever -- as long as it is legal HTML, it shouldn't be a  
problem.  You might want to check how S5 handles it:


http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/xoxo-structure-ref.html

Cheers,
- enp

On Nov 12, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Ryan Cannon wrote:


Greetings list,

I've looked around for answers to this before, but haven't been  
able to find
anything conclusive. With XOXO, what is the capacity for extra  
markup? When

marking up structured documents, I usually end up with something like


Level 1

Level 2

Level 3
Text...

Level 3
Text...



Level 2

Level 3
Text...

Level 3
Text...







Is this kosher, or is XOXO strict about its content?
It seems to me that hresume lends itself very well to this kind of  
markup.




--
Ryan

http://RyanCannon.com



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Re: [uf-discuss] Apple adds support for hcard in dotmac webmail

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Chris,

I'd like to claim credit, but I suspect Bill Humphries was the prime  
mover due to his inviting Tantek to come speak at Apple. Still, it's  
all good. :-)


-- Ernie P.

On Oct 29, 2006, at 1:43 AM, Chris Messina wrote:


Check it out:

http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/10/28/apple-embraces-microformats- 
in-new-mac-webmail/


Sweet! Ernie, did you have something to do with this?

Chris

--
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
 Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog
Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [X] bloggable[ ] ask first   [ ] private
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[uf-discuss] Primary among alternates Re: WAS: Visible Data

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi MIke,

I think we may the victim of a major miscommunication, aggravated by  
the choice of subject.  Let me start over, to see if I understand.



resolve this one specific use case.)  Consider these three URLs:

http://www.foo.com/toyota/4runner/1999/
http://www.foo.com/toyota/1999/4runner/
http://www.foo.com/1999/toyota/4runner/

Assuming they point to the same basic content but have different
breadcrumbs:

Home >> Toyota >> 4Runner >> 1999
Home >> Toyota >> 1999 >> 4Runner
Home >> 1999 >> Toyota >> 4Runner



Given your use case, you are trying to distinguish between various  
human-clickable links that point to the same resource.   You want to  
mark one as "preferred" or "default" while still making it clear that  
the other links are alternate views of -- or rather, routes to -- the  
same content.


Is that a reasonable formulation of your problem?

When put that way, this sounds like very analogous to "alternates":

http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates-brainstorming

While the context is different, I think the semantic load is very  
similar.  The difficulty I have is that -- at least the way I  
understood your description, I have difficulty imagining a page where  
I see all three at the same time.  Given that, it is hard for me to  
understand *where* the information would be encoded, as your proposed  
footer:



This page is a duplicate of http://www.foo.com/toyota/4runner/1999/";
rel="primary">www.foo.com/toyota/4runner/1999/.


feels (at least to me) somewhat contrived.   It is precisely that  
difficulty in conceptualizing concrete use cases that makes me feel  
like this isn't a viable candidate for the microformat process.


However, I'm willing to be proved wrong. If you could perhaps give me  
a link to a single real-world web page that -- in itself -- needs  
this solution, then I might feel we could actually help you.


Otherwise, this sounds like more a matter of using appropriate HTML  
head tags to link the page against some authoritative metadata, e.g.  
where multiple pages link to an authoritative GUID with different  
"rel" attributes.  But if that's what you want to do, then this group  
doesn't have a core competency in that area, so we may not be the  
appropriate place to discuss that.


Does that make sense?

Best,
-- Ernie P.


On Oct 27, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:


Let me give another example for this
use-case (although I'm learning there may be existing things in  
HTML to

resolve this one specific use case.)  Consider these three URLs:

http://www.foo.com/toyota/4runner/1999/
http://www.foo.com/toyota/1999/4runner/
http://www.foo.com/1999/toyota/4runner/

Assuming they point to the same basic content but have different
breadcrumbs:

Home >> Toyota >> 4Runner >> 1999
Home >> Toyota >> 1999 >> 4Runner
Home >> 1999 >> Toyota >> 4Runner

However, there really are the same page and I'd like to be able to  
say that
one of them is the "primary" or "authoritative" one (the website  
owner would
decide which one) and in the two that are not "primary" or  
"authoritative"
they would point to the one that is.  It's possible that you could  
have the

following visible on the page:

This page is a duplicate of http://www.foo.com/toyota/4runner/1999/";
rel="primary">www.foo.com/toyota/4runner/1999/.

As I said, this is but one example of data that helps describe a  
page that I
can envision I will need and that I believe could benefit the web  
in general
if it exists. I wish I had fleshed out my other examples at this  
point but I

haven't yet, and I certainly don't want to get the shot down because I
present them prematurely prepared.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Visible Data...a Microformat requirement?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Andy,

On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Dr.
Ernie Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


As long as you don't  call it a microformat, feel free to experiment.
:-)


Why shouldn't he call it a microformat?


Sorry, I may have conflated too many issues. The point I wanted to  
make (which I communicated poorly) is:


a) If he's committed to marking up *invisible* metadata that is  
*only* for machine consumption, then [IMHO] that's beyond the scope  
of what this group was constituted to do.


b) Conversely, if he's unsure whether the metadata *has* to be  
invisible, then perhaps this is still a worthwhile discussion.


c) Either way, he's welcome to experiment with microformat-derived ideas

d) However, if the end result is *outside* the scope of how we as a  
community understand microformats, don't expect to get a lot of  
official support


e) In particular, it would be confusing for him to call his proposal  
a "microformat" if it did not go through the documented microformat  
process


http://microformats.org/wiki/process

I apologize if that came across as needlessly confrontational.

Best,
-- Ernie P.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Visible Data...a Microformat requirement?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Mike,

Your always welcome to use HTML class name semantics or other  
microformat-inspired technologies in your private applications.   
However, that is a different thing that calling it a "microformat"  
and engaging this whole group in vetting and supporting it.


If you think this could be a great solution to an existing problem, I  
encourage to just go ahead and implement it.  As long as you don't  
call it a microformat, feel free to experiment. :-)


- Ernie P.

On Oct 25, 2006, at 3:15 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:


Thanks Charles.

However I still have no idea why these things apply to specifying  
which page
among of group of equivalent pages is authoritative and why  
Microformats do
not.  The latter seem a perfect fit to me, and what you listed  
either don't
apply to general web pages, are years off and can't be used today,  
are not
related, or don't provide the features needed. The microformat  
concept would

work perfectly for this (and similar problems.)

-Mike

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of  
Charles

Iliya Krempeaux
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:58 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Visible Data...a Microformat requirement?

Hello Mike,

XML, Semantic HTML, and RDF are closely related to what is being  
done here.


But there's alot of other technologies for specific areas.  Like with
multimedia type thigns we have SMIL, XSPF, etc etc.

For databases like things we have CSV, TSV, HTML tables, etc etc.

(Obviously I'm not going to try to enumerate every "area" and every
technology... but hopefully this will give you an idea.)



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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Nice summary! I agree the issues are non-trivial, but I'm glad  
somebody is hashing them out...


On Oct 5, 2006, at 7:20 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote:


Scott,

Thanks for the in-depth reply, lots of good points!  I've mulled it
over and here are a few thoughts.

On 10/5/06, Scott Reynen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

An empty hCard is not an hCard.
hCard requires at least a name, and
most other microformats have some basic requirements.  So I think
it's bad semantics to say there's an hCard somewhere when there's
not.


It's bad semantics, yes.  I don't know what the solution to that is,
because clearly in some cases (the editing case) what's being
presented is indeed a vcard and it's not reasonable for the
application to work out whether the form it's presenting is filled in
correctly or not and remove the vcard class if it's not.

I'd prefer to say that an hCard with missing elements *is* an hCard,
it's just invalid.  It's like saying that a web page that's missing
its  is invalid, rather than saying it's not HTML.

I'm sure we can find plenty of stuff in the wild that's marked up as
hCard that is missing a few mandatory fields, after all.


Even in the case where the hCard data is there (a pre-filled
form), it doesn't follow the current hCard parsing standards, so it's
only an hCard if we're redefining what hCard is.


Well I think that's what's being discussed.  There are lots of reasons
to want to not change hCard seeing as it's so established, but I'm not
sure about the economy of coming up with a separate 'input hCard' uF
that only differs slightly.


And I don't see the
point of that.  Parsers will need to be rewritten to make use of this
data regardless of the root class name.  Using the existing root
class names seems to only ensure that parsers will also need to be
rewritten if they want to ignore this data.


There are rewrites to parsers to accomodate new parsing rules all the
time, the a.include pattern is the latest that springs to mind.  That
said I'm not one of the people who's written a parser so I'm probably
undervaluing their time and effort somewhat and wouldn't like to write
it off as a trivial change.


That the form is used for input is obvious.  That the form is used
for input of hCards is not obvious, and I don't think adding
class="vcard" makes it obvious.


Can I ask why?  If you know a form accepts input, and it's got
class="vcard" on it then it would seem to make sense that the
[EMAIL PROTECTED]"given-name"] is expecting a first name.

I mentioned briefly that there might be the need for some sort of
convention such as tying the identifying class directly to the input
element, perhaps the vcard class would need to be tied to the form
element too?


What was the problem with Drew's
earlier suggestion of accept="text/html+vcard" to identify the
accepted microformat input format?


I don't see how @accepts is relevant in the case of prefilling forms,
to be honest.

@accept specifies a list of acceptable upload MIME types.  In a
context like this where we're submitting form values rather than file
uploads I don't think it's relevant at all (I'm happy to be corrected
if I'm reading the spec badly, the HTTP  traffic involved in a form
submission is a grey area for me).

It's probably highly relevant in a situation where we're POSTing or
PUTing a full hCard in a RESTful manner though.


I see no problem with that, but I still see no benefit in forcing
that change on all existing parsers by using the old class names to
mean new things.   Currently class="vcard" means "you can find  
contact

data within tags containing vcard property names as classes" and what
I'm seeing suggested here is changing class="vcard" to mean "you can
find contact data within tags containing vcard property names as
classes, or within the value attribute of input tags containing those
classes,


Well, currently it's "you can find contact data within tags containing
vcard property names as classes, or within those tags' @title if
they're an abbr or within their @alt if they're an img or somewhere
else on the page if you find an object.include or a.include pattern"
(I'm sure I've missed a few).

I'm not suggesting a redefinition of any of the hCard classes, that
would be too much of a headache, but the parsing rules have been
incrementally changed in the past and this would be some further
changes.


"or if those value attributes are blank and you have contact
data, this would be a good place to paste it."


An existing parser wouldn't at all need to know about this, it would
need to say, quite rightly, that the hCard wasn't valid and not try
and do stuff with it.

However, if I was writing a 'smart pasting' application, there's
already a whole rich semantic structure in hCard that would let me
immediately work out that, for instance, a certain [EMAIL PROTECTED]"text"]
is expecing my given-name.


That strikes me as a
complicated redefinition of a microformat to suit a hypothetical edge
case.


It is non-trivial, I

Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Form Fields

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

On Sep 28, 2006, at 4:12 AM, Drew McLellan wrote:


What if I was to mark up the form (and fields) with hCard classes?
Good idea? Bad idea? I strikes me that it could be useful for auto-
complete applications, but not sure if it would ‘pollute’ the web
with effectively a useless/empty hCard when the form is published.


There's various related bits of discussion on this in and around these
pages:
http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/


To be precise, it is here:

http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/description

I'm definitely a fan of uf-marking input forms, as it does allow both  
i) meaningful output, and ii) hypermedia-driven markup.


Though, I am curious how the various parsers out there would/should  
treat empty fields...


-- Ernie P.

On Sep 28, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Brian Suda wrote:

By giving more structure to Forms you are accomplishing several
things... the posibility to do some sort of introspection on data
inputs. This would be a boon to spammers, you are using hForm, now
they can easily paste their structured spam data into your comments
fields. (i know using obscure fields names is not security - but it is
a hurdle to automation). The other cool thing extracting data from a
form gets you, is to build things like OpenSearchDescriptions, and/or
other formats. I don't think there is critial mass on the web for
these sorts of actions because things become so specialised.


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Re: [uf-discuss] hidden microformats

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hmm.  Might it work for you to have an "Address Book" or "Calendar"  
page (or subsection) with the full information, and simply link to  
that from the "mention"?


The reasons is that hidden microformats tend to be (i) be fragile and  
hard to maintain, plus (ii) susceptible to spam, and this overlooked  
by search engines.


-- Ernie P.

On Sep 27, 2006, at 5:15 PM, Paolo Negri wrote:


Hi Ernie

Thanks for replying

The application I'm working on is rich in calendar items and people.

On some pages I have all the infos about these items and I can produce
very complete uformats. On other pages I render let's say just the
name and the email of someone and it doesn't make sense to provide a
less complete hcard than in a different page, and I absolutely can't
add the extra information (address, role) as visible.

Another problem is that there are a lot of data on the page and the
bits to build the uformats are well spreaded on it so I have to put
the main  or whatever at a very high level of the dom which is
not really nice because it tends to group even some items that are not
really in his context.

Paolo

On 27/09/06, Dr. Ernie Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

HI Paolo,

In general "hidden" microformats are frowned upon, as they cause all
sorts of problems.   Could you give an example of the types of
"hidden" information you want/need to provide?

-- Ernie P.

On Sep 27, 2006, at 2:56 PM, Paolo Negri wrote:

> Hi there
>
> This is my first post here, sorry if I'm not posting in the right
> place.
> I'm adding uformats support in my application and I have to say I'm
> quite intrigued but I'm facing with 3 problems
>
> 1) Sometime I have to change the code of my pages in places where I
> would prefer to have a more clean structure.
> 2) Sometime I would like to to the uformats on my pages information
> that I have in my application but that are not rendered in the  
current
> page, and adding/hiding these information in the original  
structure to

> complete the rendered information, make my page really dirty.
> 3) In some cases I would like to add a uformat containing  
informations
> that are not present at all on the page but that are deeply  
connected

> with the context of the page.
>
> Now, what I was thinking is to add in the footer of my pages a  
sort of
> container (let's say a div) with all  the microformats that I  
want to
> provide to my end user. Basicly this div will be not visible  
because

> of style setting , it will be just available for parsing purpouse.
>
> What I'm wondering is if this approach makes any sense since
> microformats are more oriented to give semantic/parsability to the
> visible content. I was thinking as an alternative to provide the
> possibility to download directly the vcard or whatever, but I still
> would preferer microformats since they sounds for me a bit more
> discoverable than a link to the vcard or to the final object.
>
> One last question that I have is about the screen reader for  
impaired
> user. Is there already a standard/proposal to signal that a  
section of

> the page is dedicated to microformats, or maybe I should just use
> something to avoid the processing of the container by the screen
> reader.
>
> That's all, thank you for the attention.
>
> Paolo
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Re: [uf-discuss] hidden microformats

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

HI Paolo,

In general "hidden" microformats are frowned upon, as they cause all  
sorts of problems.   Could you give an example of the types of  
"hidden" information you want/need to provide?


-- Ernie P.

On Sep 27, 2006, at 2:56 PM, Paolo Negri wrote:


Hi there

This is my first post here, sorry if I'm not posting in the right  
place.

I'm adding uformats support in my application and I have to say I'm
quite intrigued but I'm facing with 3 problems

1) Sometime I have to change the code of my pages in places where I
would prefer to have a more clean structure.
2) Sometime I would like to to the uformats on my pages information
that I have in my application but that are not rendered in the current
page, and adding/hiding these information in the original structure to
complete the rendered information, make my page really dirty.
3) In some cases I would like to add a uformat containing informations
that are not present at all on the page but that are deeply connected
with the context of the page.

Now, what I was thinking is to add in the footer of my pages a sort of
container (let's say a div) with all  the microformats that I want to
provide to my end user. Basicly this div will be not visible because
of style setting , it will be just available for parsing purpouse.

What I'm wondering is if this approach makes any sense since
microformats are more oriented to give semantic/parsability to the
visible content. I was thinking as an alternative to provide the
possibility to download directly the vcard or whatever, but I still
would preferer microformats since they sounds for me a bit more
discoverable than a link to the vcard or to the final object.

One last question that I have is about the screen reader for impaired
user. Is there already a standard/proposal to signal that a section of
the page is dedicated to microformats, or maybe I should just use
something to avoid the processing of the container by the screen
reader.

That's all, thank you for the attention.

Paolo
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[uf-discuss] Fwd: vobject and hcalendar

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

Jeffrey Harris from OSAF was kind enough to point me to the hCalendar  
support in top-of-tree of vobject:






Specifically, this class:

http://svn.osafoundation.org/vobject/trunk/src/vobject/hcalendar.py

Anybody feel like testing it out and/or improving it?  From what I  
can see, it works pretty well for the basic cases.  FYI, here's the  
doctest for it.


-- Ernie P.

http://svn.osafoundation.org/vobject/trunk/tests/tests.py

"Serializing iCalendar to hCalendar" :

"""
>>> cal = base.newFromBehavior('hcalendar')
>>> cal.behavior

>>> pacific = dateutil.tz.tzical(StringIO.StringIO 
(timezones)).get('US/Pacific')

>>> cal.add('vevent')

>>> cal.vevent.add('summary').value = "this is a note"
>>> cal.vevent.add('url').value = "http://microformats.org/code/ 
hcalendar/creator"

>>> cal.vevent.add('dtstart').value = datetime.date(2006,2,27)
>>> cal.vevent.add('location').value = "a place"
>>> cal.vevent.add('dtend').value = datetime.date(2006,2,27) +  
datetime.timedelta(days = 2)

>>> event2 = cal.add('vevent')
>>> event2.add('summary').value = "Another one"
>>> event2.add('description').value = "The greatest thing ever!"
>>> event2.add('dtstart').value = datetime.datetime(1998, 12,  
17, 16, 42, tzinfo = pacific)

>>> event2.add('location').value = "somewhere else"
>>> event2.add('dtend').value = event2.dtstart.value +  
datetime.timedelta(days = 6)

>>> hcal = cal.serialize()
>>> print hcal

   http://microformats.org/code/hcalendar/ 
creator">

  this is a note:
  Monday, February  
27
  - Tuesday, February  
28

  at a place
   


   Another one:
   Thursday,  
December 17, 16:42
   - title="19981223T164200-0800">Wednesday, December 23, 16:42

   at somewhere else
   The greatest thing ever!

""",

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Re: [uf-discuss] Ordered Lists

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Paul,

On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:11 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote:

Yeah,  I would like to be able to understand what the list is "about",
so something like a title would give a good descriptive meaning to
what the items in the list relate to.

For instance the title could be "Favorite Films", obviously the LI's
would then be order of the favorites.



As far as I can tell, that is a perfectly appropriate use of the  
"title" attribute.


http://www.netmechanic.com/news/vol6/html_no1.htm

It does lead to some redundancy between the human-readable caption  
(which presumably is in an H1 or whatever), but it does seem to serve  
your purpose.


Anybody else have an opinion?

-enp



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Re: [uf-discuss] Ordered Lists

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Paul,

On Aug 29, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote:


Hi,

This is going to sound pretty trivial, and I hope that no one minds me
asking this.

I am looking for a way to do "Top 10's".  I don't want to suggest a
Microformat or anything for this.  But I was wondering if anyone has
experience in parsing Lists of information.

My first thought is to make a parser look for OL XHTML elements and
then work off that, perhaps using the title attribute to determine the
topic of the ordered list.


Yeah, that absolutely sounds like the right way to go.  I'm not quite  
clear on what you're using 'title' for, though.  Do you have multiple  
lists per page, and need a way to differentiate the title of the list  
from the title of the page?


-- Ernie P.




Would people be able to suggest other ways they would consider looking
for ordered information.  i.e do you think that there would be any
semantic meaning to the posistion of elements in an xoxo formatted
listing or OPML.

Kind Regards,
Paul Kinlan
http://www.kinlan.co.uk
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[uf-discuss] vobject support for hCalendar?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

I believe some of this was discussed earlier in the week, but  
apologies if I missed anything relevant.  Anyway, Apple's new  
Calendaring server:


http://collaboration.macosforge.org/

Uses vobject for ics parsing and generation:

http://vobject.skyhouseconsulting.com/epydoc/public/vobject-module.html

So, does anyone know a way to make vobject input/output hCalendar?   
Or is someone planning/willing to write such?


If so, I'd be happy to put them in touch with the iCal team, to help  
that get into the next version...


Thanks,
-- Ernie P.

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[uf-discuss] eRDF <=> microformats?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

I apologize if this might be off-topic, but I'm honestly curious and  
would like to understand this better:


http://www.bnode.org/archives2/58

eRDF:
(+) follows the microformats principles

http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml

From my admittedly naive perspective, eRDF looks like it *could* be  
used in a way that is compatible with microformats.  That is, not  
*all* eRDF schemas and documents *are* necessarily microformats, but  
many of them _could_ be.  Conversely, it seems like _most_  
microformats could be described using eRDF schemas.


Is that true?  If so, what is the dividing line?

-- Ernie P.

P.S.  For what its worth, this seems _way_ more promising to me than  
RDFa.



Ernest N. Prabhakar, Ph.D. 
Ex-Physicist, Marketing Weenie, and Dilettante Hacker
Probe-Hacker blog: http://www.opendarwin.org/~drernie/


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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats Article

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

I concur with Tantek -- possibly the best concise yet comprehensive  
summary to date.  I plan to pass it around quite a bit.


Go Phil!

-- Ernie P.

On May 11, 2006, at 4:36 PM, Phil Haack wrote:


Hey All,

A little while ago I mentioned I was writing an article on  
Microformats and
solicited some feedback on comparing Microformats to XML.  Well  
that article

is finally LIVE.

http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,1961106,00.asp

The announcement of the article (and my motivation for it) is on my  
blog:


http://haacked.com/archive/2006/05/11/ 
IntroductionToMicroformatsArticle.aspx



Thanks for the interesting discussion and feedback.  It was very  
helpful.

Let me know if I have any factual errors.

Phil

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Re: [uf-discuss] hCard and Life Dates?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

I would vote of hCalendar --- this really is a full  "event", the  
life of one person.  It also would be the most natural extension of a  
"birthday event."


-enp

On Apr 18, 2006, at 3:34 PM, Timothy Gambell wrote:


Hi All,

How do I say "Albert Einstein (March 14, 1879 – April 18, 1955)"  
using hCard? Specifically, what is the best way of expressing a  
person's life dates?


"bday" seems like an obvious choice for date of birth. Would adding  
a term like "dday" be appropriate for date of death?


Or would it be better to use "dtstart" and "dtend" from hCalendar?  
This feels more elegant, except that "bday" is a more semantically  
precise than "dtstart".


Or maybe some hybrid? perhaps class="bday dtstart" for birthday and  
class="dtend" for death date?


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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats podcasts index now on wiki

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Cool!

I wonder if there's a way to syndicate that page so I can feed it  
directly into iTunes.  Hmm, if our wiki used hAtom markup...


-- Ernie P.

On Apr 2, 2006, at 12:14 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:


Greetings,

Since there have been several recent podcasts where microformats  
have been
discussed, I've created a page on the wiki to keep track of them  
(similar to

the presentations page)

 http://microformats.org/wiki/podcasts

Please check it out, have a listen to the listed podcasts.

The page only contains few links to March podcasts and is thus sadly
incomplete, and thus I'm asking for help.


Please add links to other podcasts which discuss microformats!

So far I've omitted podcasts which merely mention microformats  
without at
least a description or some specific user benefit mention.  I trust  
your

judgment.


Thanks,

Tantek

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Re: [uf-discuss] Format-of-Formats?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Joe,


Gotcha... sorry for the intrusion... didn't want to stir things up..


No worries.  After all, most of are here *in order* to stir things  
up. :-)



it certainly is a big challenge.  A gentleman on SB recommended
Microcontent Description (MCD) as a starting point.  Ernie, if you're
up for it, I'd be interested in getting something going.  I think this
list is the place to do it but I certainly respect Tantak's desire to
avoid the quagmire!


Understood.


Maybe a sub-list of some sort that Ernie and I moderate?  Best,  Joe


Not a bad idea at all.

Tantek, I realize you may think this a complete waste of time, but  
would you be willing to at least quarantine us lunatics in our own  
"microformats-schema" mailing list?  If nothing else, it provides a  
safety valve to prevent the issue from cropping up here  
periodically.  And who knows? Every 65 million years or so, something  
*does* manage to boil the ocean. :-)


-- Ernie P.

On Mar 30, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Joe Reger, Jr. wrote:



On 3/30/06, Dr. Ernie Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Joe,


Is this format-of-formats already done?  If so, I apologize, can you
point me to it?  If not, what has been done and would it be  
premature

for me to start work on such a draft specification (after much
feedback from everybody here, of course)?


This is actually an FAQ, and a fairly tricky one at that, since it is
isomorphic to the problem of a "general purpose parser."  I believe
Tantek has declared that discussion off-topic for this list, since it
has the potential to be a never-ending rathole.  However, I can't
find such a statement on the FAQ:

http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Basic_Microformat_Questions

Tantek, is that in fact the policy, and is it documented somewhere?

That said, there are a few of us crazy enough to want to try, which
I'm open to doing off-list if you're interested...

-- Ernie P.


On Mar 30, 2006, at 8:45 AM, Joe Reger, Jr. wrote:


Hi All!

I've been lurking for a while and truly appreciate all of the great
work going into microformats right now!

I saw a message on the Structured Blogging mailing list that got me
thinking about a format-of-formats... a standard way to describe a
format.  My thoughts are here:

http://www.joereger.com/entry-logid7-eventid5003-Structured-
Blogging-FormatofFormats.log

As I posted, I realized that I haven't checked in with Tantek and
others regarding the concept of a format-of-formats.  I've seen a  
lot
of Atom/RDF used.  I was a proponent of XML Schema a while back.   
I've

been dabbling with Xforms.  XUL is out there.

My basic position is that we should be able to provide a common  
format

for the description of a microformat.  By creating a standard to
describe the formats we free toolmakers to create an implementation
and then be done with it.  Once we have support from WordPress, MT,
Drupal, LJ, etc then we can spawn microformats more quickly,  
requiring

little or no development on the toolmaker part.  Toolmakers will
compete by providing advanced features in their implementation (like
CSS override hooks, see blog post).  Aggregators like
Technorati/PubSub will be able to build advanced functionality on  
top

of specific formats and will compete at that level.  For example,
Technorati may create Technorati Music while PubSub may create  
PubSub

Movies... their investment differentiates and end-users win.

Is this format-of-formats already done?  If so, I apologize, can you
point me to it?  If not, what has been done and would it be  
premature

for me to start work on such a draft specification (after much
feedback from everybody here, of course)?

Thanks for getting me up to speed!  Keep up the great work!

Best,

Joe Reger
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Re: [uf-discuss] Format-of-Formats?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Joe,


Is this format-of-formats already done?  If so, I apologize, can you
point me to it?  If not, what has been done and would it be premature
for me to start work on such a draft specification (after much
feedback from everybody here, of course)?


This is actually an FAQ, and a fairly tricky one at that, since it is  
isomorphic to the problem of a "general purpose parser."  I believe  
Tantek has declared that discussion off-topic for this list, since it  
has the potential to be a never-ending rathole.  However, I can't  
find such a statement on the FAQ:


http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Basic_Microformat_Questions

Tantek, is that in fact the policy, and is it documented somewhere?

That said, there are a few of us crazy enough to want to try, which  
I'm open to doing off-list if you're interested...


-- Ernie P.


On Mar 30, 2006, at 8:45 AM, Joe Reger, Jr. wrote:


Hi All!

I've been lurking for a while and truly appreciate all of the great
work going into microformats right now!

I saw a message on the Structured Blogging mailing list that got me
thinking about a format-of-formats... a standard way to describe a
format.  My thoughts are here:

http://www.joereger.com/entry-logid7-eventid5003-Structured- 
Blogging-FormatofFormats.log


As I posted, I realized that I haven't checked in with Tantek and
others regarding the concept of a format-of-formats.  I've seen a lot
of Atom/RDF used.  I was a proponent of XML Schema a while back.  I've
been dabbling with Xforms.  XUL is out there.

My basic position is that we should be able to provide a common format
for the description of a microformat.  By creating a standard to
describe the formats we free toolmakers to create an implementation
and then be done with it.  Once we have support from WordPress, MT,
Drupal, LJ, etc then we can spawn microformats more quickly, requiring
little or no development on the toolmaker part.  Toolmakers will
compete by providing advanced features in their implementation (like
CSS override hooks, see blog post).  Aggregators like
Technorati/PubSub will be able to build advanced functionality on top
of specific formats and will compete at that level.  For example,
Technorati may create Technorati Music while PubSub may create PubSub
Movies... their investment differentiates and end-users win.

Is this format-of-formats already done?  If so, I apologize, can you
point me to it?  If not, what has been done and would it be premature
for me to start work on such a draft specification (after much
feedback from everybody here, of course)?

Thanks for getting me up to speed!  Keep up the great work!

Best,

Joe Reger
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[uf-discuss] "Behavior" and microformats

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

While reading "yet another design tutorial for Web 2.0 sties":

http://snyke.net/blog/2006/03/25/site-design-using-prototype/

I ran across the "Behaviour" JavaScript library:

http://bennolan.com/behaviour/
"Using CSS selectors to apply JavaScript behaviors"

I'm not sure I understand it fully yet, but this seems like the  
"microformat-friendly" way to attach JavaScript to web pages.   
Anybody else looked at this?  I don't know about the library itself,  
but the resulting web pages are impressively clean...


-- Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] hAtom look-see

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Is there "TBD" section of the wiki to start the discussion about 0.2?

On Mar 23, 2006, at 9:53 AM, Ryan King wrote:


On Mar 23, 2006, at 6:14 AM, Chris Casciano wrote:

On Mar 22, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Robert Bachmann wrote:


Hi Chris,

Thanks for your feedback.
Please note that feed title, feed updated, feed id and feed link
aren't covered by hAtom 0.1.
So we (the stylesheet authors) needed to come up with our own  
extraction

methods, which I'll outline with some pseudo-code.



As I posed in IRC yesterday -- is it really up to the stylesheet /  
authors of consumers to determine this stuff? Almost definitely  
this should become part of the spec/wiki and consensus reached --  
both for the benefit of tool authors -- but also the benefit of  
page builders like myself who are trying to reconcile differences  
between hAtom and the Atom spec and wondering how they work  
together..


Yes, I think it *should* be. They were left out of 0.1 for the sake  
of getting something out the door.


-rk


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Re: [uf-discuss] Best uf-greasemonkey demo in Firefox 1.5?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Yeah, exactly like that. :-)

Thanks, I'll add it to the wiki.

On Mar 14, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Pete Prodoehl wrote:


http://blog.codeeg.com/tails-firefox-extension/


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[uf-discuss] Best uf-greasemonkey demo in Firefox 1.5?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

Gosh, its been quiet here lately.  I'm revving up to give my ol'  
microformats talk again this Friday, and wanted to know if there's a  
good parser that works with Firefox 1.5.  Any suggestions?


http://microformats.org/wiki/Greasemonkey

-- Ernie P.

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[uf-discuss] Nabu as microformats?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hmm. Anyone here familiar with Nabu?http://furius.ca/nabu/Sounds an awful lot like a way to extract microformats from text.  Any idea if Martin knows about/ supports microformats for his HTML output?-- Ernie Phttp://www.sauria.com/blog/2006/03/01#1486The most interesting talk of the day was Martin Blais' talk on Nabu, which he calls a publishing system using text files. Martin is using reStructured Text as a way of marking up structured data (events, people, etc) in a reStructured Text document. He gave a timely example of a travel text file, which was to represent his trip to PyCon. In this file he had regular text describing various topics, and embedded in the text was marked up meeting information, contact information and so it. Nabu can process the file, extract all the marked up data, and then do a variety of things with it, including publishing a web page kind of view of all the data. While Martin says it's not a PIM, I think that it does some interesting things that PIM users might be interested in, particularly some of the 43Folders / life hacks crowd. Martin is very clear that this is not a "for your Mom" kind of tool, but if you are a keep it all in text files kind of person, and want to take things up just a little bit, I think it might be worth looking at. Most of the OSAF folks were in Martin's talk and it sparked some interesting discussions about Martin's work. The travel file example that he showed is exactly the kind of thing that we are aiming to be able to support using our collection system, so it was nice to see something that was similar in spirit.

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Re: [uf-discuss] hAtom - ready for 0.1?

[Dr . Ernie Prabhakar]

Stick a fork in it, looks done to me. :-)

Great work, everyone.  I'm sure there's much more that could (and  
will) be done, but this is an excellent foundation.


Best,
-- Ernie P.

On Feb 27, 2006, at 5:03 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote:


I've been watching eagerly as hAtom has been refined quite nicely by
everyone's excellent discussions and Ryan King's and David Janes'  
hard work

in updating the wiki accordingly.  I think it is looking quite good.

 http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom

I haven't yet completed adding it to my blog yet (still in the  
middle or

rewrite), and that's perhaps the second to last question I have from a
content perspective -- how well does that work?

Also I'd like to hear of when the hAtom2Atom.xslt might be updated  
so we can

try that on hAtom content and see how well it works.

Aside from those two things, I personally see no reason not to  
declare hAtom

as version 0.1 and ready for folks to to use it in general.

Does anyone know of any significant issues (other than the above) that
should prevent hAtom from going v0.1?

Other opinions? What do people think?

Thanks,

Tantek

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[uf-discuss] "Native to a Web of Data"

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

A very insightful talk (which is to say he largely agrees with me :-):

http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/2006/02/ 
my_future_of_web_apps_slides.shtml


particularly since he mentions microformats near the end:

http://www.plasticbag.org/files/native/native_files/native.054-002.png

Despite his warning, I recommend the HTML version, even if its just  
PNGs, as that gives you the builds.


Also, check out Jeremy's excellent high-level summary:

http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/006323.html

-- Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] affiliations in hResume

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hmm.   This is an interesting question, and I've been wondering what  
might be a useful precedent.


The one thing that this most closely reminded me of was how some  
pages mark themselves as belonging to a 'category' in a directory (a  
la Yahoo or dmoz).


Does anyone remember the mechanism/justification for that?

-- Ernie P.

On Feb 8, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Ryan King wrote:

I'm working on an hResume draft and have an issue that needs some  
discussion. A common element in resumes online seems to be  
'affiliations,' which are usually professions organizations of  
which the resume writer is a member. I'm not quite sure how we  
should express these. My two suggestions are on the wiki [http:// 
microformats.org/wiki/resume-brainstorming#affiliations], but I'll  
also paste them here:


1. class~="affiliation" + hcard -- use classname 'affiliation' +  
an hcard for the organization of which the user is a member
2. a rel or rev value for membership/affiliation (this doesn't  
capture the name of the organization or any other information, but  
could be useful outside resumes



Thoughts? Feelings? Complaints?

-ryan
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Re: wiki-thon? Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats.org usability review

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Tantek,

On Feb 2, 2006, at 11:07 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote:
Ernie, if you think there are "obvious holes", document them on the  
to-do
page, because to the rest of us, there are no "obvious holes", only  
numerous

things we can do to improve the site.


My apologies, I didn't mean that to come across as critical as it may  
have sounded.   My point was rather that it seems (at least to me)  
like there's several "potholes" that people new to microformats often  
stumble across, and I wanted to i) gain consensus on what they are  
and how to fix them, and then ii) actually fix them.  At any rate,  
here's my wishlist for what I'd like to see done, which (at least for  
me)  would be much easier at an event than on my lonesome:



http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#Ernest_Prabhakar

Coalesce/prioritize existing To-Do items
Review/revise desired pathways for:
New users learning about microformats
Microformat lifecycle
Review existing specs for completeness and consistency
Identify areas of 'bitrot' or 'hole-filling'
Do it!


Does that make more sense?

-- Ernie P.

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wiki-thon? Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats.org usability review

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Mark et al,

I appreciate the effort that has gone into this.   I wonder if it  
would be worth just getting together for a few hours some evening  
for  "Microformats wiki-thon", where we do a "spring cleaning" of the  
website in order to make it more usable, and fix up some of the  
obvious holes that have been sitting around a long time.  I know --  
at least for myself -- that this sort of housekeeping is a lot more  
fun a) if there's other people around, and b) there's a chance for  
informal back and forth to make sure we're not throwing away anything  
important.


Of course we should do this via IRC, but it would help to have some  
sort of central location.  Rohit, feel like hosting something again?   
I'll pitch in for pizza...


-- Ernie P.

On Feb 1, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Mark Rickerby wrote:


Ryan makes an important point. I have added a list of short term
tasks/goals here. I'm currently working from the
get-something-done-in-five-minutes perspective, and acting on some of
the introductory content ideas which have been discussed.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats + Thunderbird

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Chris,

Hmm. I'm not sure if I understand your solution.  To avoid  
corruption, I'm pretty sure AddressBook doesn't want people writing  
directly to its private data store (regardless of format), so there  
needs to be some API.


Now, the idea of an "hCard" API for data access is interesting (and  
perhaps RESTful :-), but a simpler solution would arguably be to  
reuse a format they already have in common, like LDAP.  Wouldn't it?


--- Ernie P.

On Jan 31, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Chris Messina wrote:


Blogged about a little idea, probably obvious to most of us, but I
imagine that someone could actually figure out how to get this going
if they really wanted to... cross-platform address book and
everything, you know?

http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/31/microformats-thunderbird/

Chris
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Re: [uf-discuss] hAtom progress

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Ryan,

Coming up with a concrete, finite list of "things remaining to do"  
seems like a very useful idea to me.  Even if people disagree with  
your list, that would at least help us get focused on the end goal...


-- Ernie P.

On Jan 30, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Ryan King wrote:

So, it seems that the work on hAtom has stalled a little bit, which  
is fine, no huge rush here. There's be a lot of work put into it,  
esp. by David Janes (awesome job David!), but it seems that we've  
got a bit to go before its ready to go.


I'd like to move forward on hAtom, but its tough to tell what the  
current status is. We have a number of  open issues, which I'd like  
to resolve, but given that http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom- 
issues is a bit unorganized, its tough to get an overview of what's  
open and what's closed. I'd like to suggest that we get that page  
reorganized (somewhat like the other issues pages) so that we can  
focus on open issues and work towards resolution.


Thoughts? Action?

-ryan
--
Ryan King
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [uf-discuss] entry permalink in hatom

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Tantek,

On Jan 4, 2006, at 2:02 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:

Are you suggesting we put in a stub page on the wiki for everything we
re-use from HTML 4.01?

(not a rhetorical question)


I do think there is value in having *something* on our wiki for  
"underused" elements from HTML that are much more important in the  
microformats world than in traditional web publishing. In particular,  
I think it would *extremely* helpful to have something on:


* the various predefined rel tags in HTML 4
* profiles
* address
etc.

Maybe call it an "HTML refresher course", for those of us who never  
actually read the spec. :-)


I'm sure I'm not the only one surprised to learn that 'rel-bookmark'  
was actually part of HTML, and I personally think "the principle of  
least surprise" is often more important than a strict interpretation  
of "DRY."   When I run into an interesting semantic XHTML design  
pattern, my first instinct would be "look it up on the microformats  
wiki" rather than -first- check to see if its some obscure (or even  
not-so-obscure) part of HTML I'd never heard of...


-- Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] hAtom and blog-post-* need some more work

[Dr . Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi David,

On Dec 31, 2005, at 9:58 AM, David Janes -- BlogMatrix wrote:

I don't even have the slightest idea how to respond to this. I've been
working on hAtom since August (hardly a rush), constantly soliciting
feedback, documenting progress and descions, recently providing  
code, and so forth. Now suddenly a new there's some new microformat  
principles -- not appearing on the Wiki in any obvious place or  
(particularly) the process page.


I certainly affirm your efforts to play by the rules and solicit  
input.  I think what Tantek may be reacting to was the perceived  
pressure to "formalize" hAtom as an official microformat.  I think  
you've done a fantastic job of documenting 'hAtom' per se, but there  
are valid concerns about taking it to the next level.



I have no issue renaming elements in hAtom, as long as there's a
microformats process that I'm actually following -- something that  
I've
seriously attempt to do since the second week I've been on this  
list. I'm assuming the process is driven by documentation and  
discussion, and not by personality.


I think Tantek's principles are useful, and I agree they should be on  
the wiki.  Are they? I'm not sure:


Just because other standards keep inventing new terms for the same  
thing,

doesn't mean we should.
We should actively AVOID inventing new terms for the same thing,  
even if

those "new terms" come from other standards.


Thanks for all your efforts.

-- Ernie P.



David

PS. Does someone want to fill in the RSS feed structure? It's  
basically the same as Atom, with different terminology.


Tantek Çelik wrote:
Though I definitely understand (and applaud) the eagerness to get  
an hAtom
format defined, things have definitely been rushed a bit, and  
there are
holes in the background research necessary to do a good job. Holes  
which, if
they were filled, would most likely result in quite a few changes  
to the

hAtom proposal.
For example:
http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-post-formats
1. The formats page has yet to describe "basic structure of an RSS
document".  This is a glaring hole.  Given how much more  
established RSS 2.0
is over Atom in the space of "syndication", it needs to be taken a  
lot more

seriously than that.
2. The formats page omits another old "blog post" standard -  
VJOURNAL.  I
believe Outlook supports VJOURNAL, and if so, greatly outnumbers  
all RSS
readers combined.  I've at least added a starter section for  
VJOURNAL:

http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-post-formats#VJOURNAL
One of the larger points here to consider is:
Just because other standards keep inventing new terms for the same  
thing,

doesn't mean we should.
Who knows why they invented new terms?  The simplest explanation  
is that

they just didn't know any better.  Did they do as much research into
existing standards? If so, then you should be able to find URLs to  
that

research which we should eagerly reuse.
We should actively AVOID inventing new terms for the same thing,  
even if

those "new terms" come from other standards.
The utility of hAtom comes from the 1:1 correspondence of Atom  
elements to
hAtom class names. This does not mean that the names have to be  
the same.  In fact, we should
be preferring names from previous microformats, and even previous  
standards

over new names introduced by Atom.
As long as it is made clear which hAtom class name translates into  
which
Atom element name, the goal of creating a 1:1 representation of  
hAtom in

XHTML is achieved.


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Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO Comments

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Paul,


Is the class="xoxo" only allowed on the primary parent?  Would this be
broken?


I don't think it is "forbidden", but as a practical matter  I don't  
think it should (or even -can-) be "required."  Speaking at least for  
myself, I don't want to have to tag every sublist.  This is one of  
those cases where (as usual ;-) its better to make the parser-writer  
do a little extra work to make things easier on the content creator.


-- Ernie P.

On Dec 28, 2005, at 11:57 AM, Paul Bryson wrote:

For the sake of simplicity in JavaScript, it would be nice to be  
able to

give all  in an XOXO the class="xoxo".  So I might have:


 Linkblogs
   
 dive into mark b-links
 Erics Weblog
   
 
 Another link


Is the class="xoxo" only allowed on the primary parent?  Would this be
broken?


Atamido

"Paul Bryson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrotexoxo

The XOXO format doesn't seem to allow, or specify, the use of heading
elements for multi-level outlines, such as , , etc.  Is  
there a

reason for this?

This example uses 
http://diveintomark.org/public/2004/01/xo-embeddable.xo

This one uses  and 
http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/


Also, none of these examples seem to use class="xoxo" in them.  Is  
this a

required feature, or optional?


Atamido




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Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO Comments

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Paul,

On Dec 21, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Paul Bryson wrote:

http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
The XOXO format doesn't seem to allow, or specify, the use of heading
elements for multi-level outlines, such as , , etc.  Is  
there a

reason for this?


I don't think XOXO cares about "headers" -- everything is determined  
by the structure.  So, I assume  et al would be part of the text  
(or ignore) not part of the XOXO structure per se.


However, the very existence of headers implies that one can NOT do  
trivial YAML-like serialization.  Kevin, does your parser even try to  
deal with that?


Also, none of these examples seem to use class="xoxo" in them.  Is  
this a

required feature, or optional?


Good question.  I suspect the answer may be context-dependent.  If  
you're writing a parser, you could try to grab any list, but there's  
always the risk that it wouldn't keep the "xoxo" contract implied by  
the class name.


-- Ernie P.



This example uses 
http://diveintomark.org/public/2004/01/xo-embeddable.xo

This one uses  and 
http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/


Also, none of these examples seem to use class="xoxo" in them.  Is  
this a

required feature, or optional?


Atamido




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[uf-discuss] Newspaper XML format?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

I ran across this on the atom list, and wanted to pass it along in  
case anybody was working on a "newspaper" markup format.  I suspect  
that this should ultimately be built around hAtom, but I'm not sure  
where (if anywhere) in belongs on the current wiki.  They also seem  
interested in RDF and the Semantic Web; anybody want to talk to them  
about semantic HTML?


-- Ernie P.

http://www.iptc.org/dev
The IPTC NewsML2 Architecture WP is very happy to announce that the  
www.iptc.org/dev site has been updated.


 Here you will find:

-  a document introducing the current experimental phase  
(new!). The first part target IT management, and the second part  
targets implementers.


-  an updated NAR Model draft document (v12)

-  an updated Technical Specification draft document (v18)

-  a Glossary document (new!, v1)

-  a set of W3C XML schemas (new!, XSD format, v0.6)

-  a NewsML2 -> RDF N-triples XSLT transform (new!, v1)



All these resources are provided in order to help users test NewsML2  
in its draft form.


 It is now time for experimentation. Tests and feed-back on the  
current documentation and schemata would be highly appreciated from  
the news community.


Note: in order to access the XSD schema and contributions, you need  
to download this package.


After download, please drop the file in a “root” directory and unzip  
it: this will create a directory tree, with “IPTC” at the top.


 The “IPTC/NAR/1.0” subfolder contains itself 4 folders:

-  “specification” contains the Model, the TechSpec, the set  
of XML schemas and test samples (used to check the schema; better  
samples will come soon).


-  “documentation” contains the Glossary plus the  
introduction to the current experimental phase.


-  “contribution” contains the NewsML2 -> RDF N-triples XSLT  
transform.


-  “examples”: we will provide samples asap.



We hope that you will find it useful.



Laurent Le Meur

IPTC NewsML Architecture WP chair

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Re: [uf-discuss] How to Announce the Availability of New Media Content with uf?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Jeff,

On Dec 13, 2005, at 5:52 AM, Jeff Harrington wrote:
Also, as I'm sure you know, µf's are modeled after existing user   
behavior. So it might be worthwhile to see what artists are  
already  doing to promote themselves and start there.


Well, since I invented this whole 'internet musician thing' ;)   
I'll ask myself what I would do.  Heheh...


Actually, you might want to check out MySpace, which I'm told is  
*the* place to find new music (and be found) for the younger set.   
The model they've evolved uses friendster-style mailing lists and  
easy forwarding to push information out into a community.  I strongly  
suspect something like this will become the dominant model in the  
future...


-- ERnie P.
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Re: [uf-discuss] How to Announce the Availability of New Media Content with uf?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Jeff,

I'm not sure exactly what problem you're trying to solve, but it  
sounds like what you really want is a "ping server" (or a few) that  
people can, well, "ping" to announce availability of new content.
There's scalability issues, but as far as I can tell that's the only  
way to generate any sort of meaningful "announce" postings.


-- Ernie P.

On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:59 AM, Jeff Harrington wrote:

I've been thinking and researching for a solution to a problem  
independent artists have on the web.  Because of the loss of the  
MP3.COM community, and the diaspora of OMD's online musicians have  
been dispersed and now find themselve unable to easily 'announce'  
their new works to other music creators and consumers.
I've proposed at my blog, htttp://beepsnort.org a use of  
del.iciou.us tags to help in this process - (A Proposal for  
Announcing New Music Recordings on the Nethttp://beepsnort.org/ 
archives/000402.html) but now I'm beginning to think that  
microformats might be needed in order to additionally create a  
discovery phase of this announcement process.  Also, my use of the  
example, mp3_classical_contemporary tag, would probably eventually  
lead to an over-abundance of announcements and pseudo-announcements  
as the community began using it.  (Admittedly its a hack approach  
but does auto-generate podcasts hehe).
Is there an implicit announcement mechanism built in already that  
I'm missing?  Any research projects about how to 'announce'?  I'm  
looking for practical solutions for the thousands of online musicians.
I'm thinking at the moment of tying in my del.icio.us tag  
announcement with a discovery mechanism through uf's.  If I trigger  
the discovery by an email list I think only spam will result.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Jeff
http://jeffharrington.org


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Re: [uf-discuss] RFC: Proposal for general purpose microformat

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Abramo,

On Dec 2, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Abramo Bagnara wrote:


Dr. Ernie Prabhakar ha scritto:

That is an interesting question.  I know that Rohit has been asking
that same question.  The conventional answer is that microformat
classes *are* in fact the same classes you'd be using for normal CSS
styling, so there's no need to call them out -- and besides,   
namespaces

tend to confuse mere mortals.


I've deliberately quoted "namespace": a simple prefix is enough.


Believe me, I understand.  Still, even telling people to do "@name"  
or "-description" is a little odd.



As an example consider that a web page might already use class
"description" for its own purpose. Suppose now that he'd like to add
hCalendar encapsulation: how he can easily represent differently the
hCalendar content and the others?

He has some alternative:

1) don't use the "description" class outside hCalendar data (??? to  
use
hCalendar means to be forced to not use any rfc2445 names as class  
name?)


2) use selectors like:
.vevent .description { }


The microformat recommendation would clearly be the latter.


but what about if .vevent area is rather large and inside that he
already use some classes clashing with rfc2445? And what about if  
vevent

internal data is stored outside .vevent area?


This is one of those hypotheticals that we'd love to see a concrete  
use case to justify.  The general microformat rule is to NOT pollute  
the 80% case merely to make the corner cases possible, which I think  
is a rational approach.



You should only solve the problem of how to instruct stylesheet about
*where* it can find the role param value in xhtml page... And then you
should be sure that with this policy you're not excluding *any*  
sensible

layout.

You've an hard work, my friend... :-)


Au contraire -- as already noted, *we* are _not_ trying to solve the  
most general case of "any sensible layout", for that very  
reason. :-)  If people have unique needs that aren't solved by a  
general-purpose microformat, then we wish them well but don't feel  
compelled to convert them to our camp.


Now, it *is* certainly possible that an existing definition doesn't  
pass the 80% test, and in fact 40%+ of common uses require something  
different than what we are doing.  But that's why we stress prior  
research before forming a microformat, to ensure we cover the bulk of  
the target audience.   Yes, that means we leave other potential usage  
patterns on the table; if you think you're smart enough to figure out  
a general-purpose solution that will be broadly adopted, by all means  
-- go for it!  Most of us here have decided we're not that smart, so  
we'll be content with something more modest. :-)


Best,
Ernie P.




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Re: [uf-discuss] RFC: Proposal for general purpose microformat

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Abramo,

On Dec 2, 2005, at 1:18 PM, Abramo Bagnara wrote:
I think that "general purpose" and "universality" sacrificing  
simplicity
is a bad thing, but can we agree that universality *with*  
simplicity is

a benefit?


I think the challenge has always been "simplicity for whom."  I think  
many of us would agree that generality has *some* value, but (in our  
experience) i) universality is too ambitious a goal, and ii) even  
generality comes at *some* price.  For example, making things simpler  
for parsers often makes it a little harder for humans, which (around  
here) is considered evil. :-)


If you can come up with something that is more general, but just as  
simple for *everyone* involved, I'm sure at least a few of us on the  
list would be willing to hear it (though we'd obviously be skeptical  
at first :-).


Best,
Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] RFC: Proposal for general purpose microformat

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Abramo,

On Dec 2, 2005, at 1:54 PM, Abramo Bagnara wrote:

Can we reach an agreement that to use a "namespace" for microformats
specific classes is a good thing?


That is an interesting question.  I know that Rohit has been asking  
that same question.  The conventional answer is that microformat  
classes *are* in fact the same classes you'd be using for normal CSS  
styling, so there's no need to call them out -- and besides,  
namespaces tend to confuse mere mortals.


Is that the right answer?  I don't know.  I haven't yet heard a fully  
convincing counter-argument, but there may be one.


To your example:


With hCalendar I'm forced to this abbr abuse:




Optional partecipants: 

  
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Abramo Bagnara
,

  
  Licia Tabanelli



Optional partecipants
:

  href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Abramo

Bagnara
,

  Licia
Tabanelli




Forgive me if I'm a little slow, but I'm unclear about i) where the  
problem is, and ii) how your version is any clearer. That use of  
'title' and 'abbr' seems exceedingly odd.  Why can't hCalendar  
already just do:



Optional participantsabbr>:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Abramo  
Bagnara
 Licia  
Tabanelli 



Am I completely misunderstanding how role and opt-participant are  
supposed to be used?  Is the problem that hCalendar wants 'opt- 
participant' to be a visible key with class 'role' rather than  
invisible one?


-- Ernie P.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat Base

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

On 12/1/05 8:23 PM, "Scott Reynen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I thought I'd go ahead and play around with a microformat-based
alternative to Google Base.


Kudos, Scott!   The best revenge is a happy life, but second-best (or  
perhaps the first step to that) is working code. :-)


-- Ernie P.

On Dec 1, 2005, at 8:42 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:


On 12/1/05 8:23 PM, "Scott Reynen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I thought I'd go ahead and play around with a microformat-based
alternative to Google Base.  So far, I have a basic spider that I set
loose from microformats.org to slowly wander the web.  When it finds
any known microformat-associated class names, it records the data
which can then be searched here:

http://www.randomchaos.com/microformats/base/

Or via URL like so:

http://www.randomchaos.com/microformats/base/?key=fn&value=Tantek


Uh, WOW.

This is VERY cool.



It's currently only looking for hcard and hcalendar class names.


Consider adding hReview as well!



The spider can be invoked on a site manually like so:

http://www.randomchaos.com/microformats/base/spider/?url=http://
domain.com/path/to/microformat/

All open source [1][2][3][4] if anyone wants to play with it.  It's
pretty basic right now, but I'd be interested in any feedback you all
have.


Well done Scott.

Definitely add it to the "Implementations" sections on the specs  
for hCard

and hCalendar and for sure on the implementations page

 http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations


[1] http://www.randomchaos.com/source/?source=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.randomchaos.com%2Fmicroformats%2Fbase%2Fspider/index.php
[2] http://www.randomchaos.com/source/?source=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.randomchaos.com%2Fmicroformats%2Fbase%2Findex.php
[3] http://www.randomchaos.com/source/?source=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.randomchaos.com%2Fclass/mf_base_data.class.php
[4] http://www.randomchaos.com/source/?source=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.randomchaos.com%2Fclass/mf_base_source.class.php


Definitely include those links too.

Thanks,

Tantek

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Re: [uf-discuss] Cross-browser JavaScript vevent parser?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Scott,

On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Scott Reynen wrote:
I'm hoping to use vevent as an AJAX tranfser format.  I'm looking  
for a Safari-compatible JavaScript vevent parser for an intranet  
application (Safari is our default browser).  Closest I've found is  
David's microformat.user.js [1], which says at the top "This script  
is not meant to be as monolithic as it looks -- it should be broken  
into separate scripts, one for each microformat."  (It's also  
lacking a clear license.)


You may want to look at Safari Guide, which is the closest I've found  
to a JavaScript "add-on" for Safari.



So has anyone broken up this script already and/or applied vevent  
parsing code in contexts other than Greasemonkey scripts?  My  
JavaScript skills are sufficient to do parsing of the XML by tag  
names, but probably not by class names, so if I can't find an  
existing function to do that for me, I'll end up writing a single- 
use XML format to transfer what is essentially vevent data.


That seems the least of your challenges.  There's a zillion  
"getElementsByClass" implementations available...


-- Ernie P.





Peace,
Scott

[1] http://www.blogmatrix.com/include/microformat-find.user.js
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Re: [uf-discuss] Non-HTTP/HTML microformats

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Luke,

On Nov 30, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Kevin Marks wrote:

That would be great; I'd love some help from people more  
experienced in this

area.


Do have a look at the discussions on serialiasation and XOXO over  
REST we've had here.


As Kevin said, this does sound very similar to what we're discussing  
over on microformats REST:


http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/

I apologize for jumping into this thread late, but I'm curious  
whether you *can't* use HTML, or just weren't planning to because you  
didn't have a web browser in the loop. If the latter, I would  
definitely encourage you to consider the XOXO option.   I actually  
think it would be straightforward to implement "REX" (REST-Enabled  
XHTML) on other transports, in which case it would be germaine on the  
microformats-rest list.


Best,
Ernie P.

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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats are Sugar? SALT!

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Ryan & Chris,

On Nov 24, 2005, at 11:15 PM, Ryan King wrote:

On Nov 24, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Chris Messina wrote:

Microformats are for general purpose use, like flour and sugar. Using
them you can build things as interesting as pizza or as simple as
bread. However, a microformat for pizza would probably be
inappropriate or not worth standardizing since its fundamental
ingredients can be broken down further into more atomic units.


Chris, you've made an interesting analogy. Please indulge me as I  
expand on it (beware, I'm still recovering from my thanksgiving-day  
food coma)...


In my own tryptophan-induced semi-conscious state, I have to weigh  
(ouch) in on this...



First, microformats = sugar




Microformats are salt, not sugar!

Like salt, microformats are designed to bring out what is already  
there.  Hence the term 'semantic salt', which -surfaces- the latent  
structure in HTML; by contrast with 'syntactic sugar', which tries to  
-hide- ugly details.




-- Ernie P.

P.S. Yeah, I know Ryan was making a completely different point, but I  
couldn't pass up the chance to preach from my favorite soapbox...



Mmmm, food.


Dang, now you've gone and made me hungry.   Not like I needed any  
more food after last week

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[uf-discuss] Welcome, RESTafarains!

[Dr . Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi all,

As this is the one month anniversary of uf-rest, I wanted to take a  
few moments to welcome the new "RESTafarains" [1] and help you get  
acclimatized.  I presume everyone has seen the wiki:


http://microformats.org/wiki/rest

and the archive:

http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-rest/2005-November/

That should hopefully give you the *technical* background.  However,  
there's also a certain *philosophical* attitude [2] that undergirds  
this project, which might be a little confusing if you haven't  
experienced it before.  While a Zen Koan [3] would arguably be a more  
appropriate format, I'll cheat and give you my brief (if incomplete  
and subjective) summary of the salient cultural distinctives:


A. Value Humans

This isn't just about the social dynamics of the mailing list (though  
it is that); rather, it is the guiding principle of the entire  
endeavor. The goal is to build technology systems that support the  
way humans naturally work, rather than trying to make humans act like  
(or worse, serve) machines.  While this may seems hopelessly utopian,  
it actually flows naturally from...


B. Build The Simplest Thing That Works (TSTTW)

"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but  
nothing left to take away."  Note that this is NOT a call for  
mindless simplicity, but rather for a clear understanding of the  
mininum actually needed to "work" in real life (vs. "boiling the  
ocean"). Which leads me to...


C. Burn Ego to Buy Understanding

In my world, at least, "ego" is abundant, but "understanding" is  
scarce.  A successful RESTafarain has plenty of ego (we are trying to  
change the world, over all :-), but values understanding above all  
else.  Thus, he/she is willing to ask dumb questions, change their  
mind, and do the tedious homework necessary to find and justify the  
"right" answer -- rather than trying to pontificate from a position  
of supposed superiority.



Like everything else, these are informative, not definitive: feedback  
and comments are actively encouraged! I look forward to hearing from  
and interacting with all of you.  We're still in the early stages,  
but I believe this will ultimately become an epic and powerful  
journey. I am grateful for the chance to share it with you.


Sincerely,
-- Dr. Ernie
uf-REST Moderator

[1] As far as I know, the term "RESTafarains" was first coined by  
David Hansson.


[2] Inherited Principles

Microformats Principles:
http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles
http://microformats.org/about/

REST Principles:
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/rest_arch_style.htm
http://www.xfront.com/REST-Web-Services.html

Comparisons:
http://www.windley.com/archives/2005/07/microformats.shtml
http://www.justinleavesley.com/journal/2005/7/28/web-services-and-the- 
innovators-dilemma.html


[3] http://www.lisp.org/humor/ai-koans.html

Ernest N. Prabhakar, Ph.D. 
Ex-Physicist, Marketing Weenie, and Dilettante Hacker
Probe-Hacker blog: http://www.opendarwin.org/~drernie

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Re: [uf-discuss] communications log marked up semantically using uF's.

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Simon,

Just out of curiosity, why isn't the phone number part of the vcard?  
Is that number not associated with that contact person?


-- Ernie P.

On Nov 25, 2005, at 7:38 AM, Simon Kittle wrote:




+44 (0)7860 138 086 mobile


Incoming


24 Nov, 22:36abbr> -

22:46



David - NTL

Spoke about blah blah,  arranged blah to be done  
on blah

blah.



Any thoughts on how this could be improved would be greatly  
apprecieated.


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Re: [uf-discuss] xdmp profiles not enough for parsing?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Tantek,

On Nov 16, 2005, at 9:13 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote:


Ok, I'll put it yet another way.

The specific addition that Phil was asking for was for which  
properties went

inside which other properties.

While it may seem this makes writing a generic parser easier for a  
specific

instance, it actually makes the XMDP less reusable.


Okay, now *that* is an argument I can accept.  What I hear you saying  
is that Phil's parser should *not* be making those assumptions.  Is  
that your point?


If so, perhaps what we really need is not so much a refinement of  
XMDP, but a list of the *practical* questions parser writers are  
asking, and clarification of what the "right" answers to those  
questions are. Right?


When it comes down to it, the most useful information for a parser/ 
validator
is just to know what are the properties and what are the values.   
That's
what XMDP provides. Everything else is incremental on top of that,  
and often
gets in the way when people use such features as nesting  
requirements etc.

to *over*-specify.


I'll buy that as a starting hypothesis, but I'd love to see data to  
either confirm/refute that -- in the context of actual  
implementations, of course.


-- Ernie P.

Ernest N. Prabhakar, Ph.D. 
Ex-Physicist, Marketing Weenie, and Dilettante Hacker
Probe-Hacker blog: http://www.opendarwin.org/~drernie/


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alternates Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO eye for an XML guy

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi David,

On Nov 16, 2005, at 1:06 AM, David Janes -- BlogMatrix wrote:
I just wanted to note the use of "alternates" as a pattern here --  
i.e. a blog's URI + alternate URIs. We've seen this pattern before  
during discussions of MediaRSS as a profile for encoding alternates  
of the same logical enclosure.


Of the type of my head, I can think of a way of "loosely"  
recognizing alternations (using an outer class="alternates" and  
inner class="primary", class="alternate" for example) but it may be  
too ugly.


Yeah, that one keeps me awake at night. ;-)   Care to start an  
"alternates-examples" page, so we can try to nail this down?


-enp


Ernest N. Prabhakar, Ph.D. 
Ex-Physicist, Marketing Weenie, and Dilettante Hacker
Probe-Hacker blog: http://www.opendarwin.org/~drernie/


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Re: [uf-discuss] xdmp profiles not enough for parsing?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Tantek,

On Nov 16, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Tantek Çelik wrote:
The conclusion was, in practice, complete automatic generic  
parsability is

futile, and thus not worth pursuing, in XMDP or any other schema like
language.


I'll buy that, but that doesn't mean that we can't do *better*, right?

I like David's suggestion that we try to identify what additional  
semantics _might_ make it *easier* to write the current generation of  
parsers.   It may not be completely general, but that doesn't mean it  
wouldn't be useful, right?


I agree that we'll probably never have enough for a completely  
general automatic parser, but hopefully we can at least make it  
easier on human parser-writers...


-- Ernie P.

Ernest N. Prabhakar, Ph.D. 
Ex-Physicist, Marketing Weenie, and Dilettante Hacker
Probe-Hacker blog: http://www.opendarwin.org/~drernie/


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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for tagspeak ?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi S.,

On Nov 12, 2005, at 9:55 PM, S. Sriram wrote:

FYI:
I've put up the tagspeak-examples page on the wiki.
http://microformats.org/wiki?title=tagspeak-examples

Thanks
S. Sriram


Wow, great stuff. Thanks for pulling this together.  Hopefully some  
others will weigh in.  It looks like there's already enough to  
justify a separate "brainstorming" page.


Keep up the good work!

-- Ernie P.




- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Ernie Prabhakar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Microformats Discuss" 
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for tagspeak ?



Hi Sriram,

A fascinating question.   To make this more concrete, in
microformat's own wiki I would love to be able to specify "rel" for
links and "class" for data in MediaWiki syntax without having to
write out all the HTML.

I think there's certainly something worthwhile there, though I'm not
sure what.  Care to create a tagspeak-examples page?

-- Ernie P.

On Nov 10, 2005, at 8:31 PM, S. Sriram wrote:


Hi,

I'd like to know if tagspeak is something that microformats could
attempt to
formalize ?

tagspeak is the way in which everday users construct tags.
tags are currently constructed in one of two ways:
1. with a link using the rel-tag or in gada.be's case using
tag.gada.be
2. in plain text as in delicious, flickr and other taggable services

Punctuations that are in use with tags are

@ to denote a group in shadows.com and jots.com
: to denote a separator in the the proposed delicious groups
formulation
  groupname: tag [1]
+ To denote a tag intrsection in delicious/technorati and takes
  the place of a space
- used by gada.be in the same way as + is used by others
= As a delimiter to denote an iname [2]

For a  few other tagspeak models see my blog [3]

I wonder if this is something that fits within the microformats
umbrella and if so has there been any work done on it ?

[1] http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/mtarchive/
berkman_joshua_schachter.html
[2]
http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/itag/itag.cfm?
save=true&pname=itag&purlname=ita
g&wname=itag
[3] http://sriram.wordpress.com/

Thanks
S. Sriram

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Re: [uf-discuss] fyi: "Semantics in the wild"

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Danny,

On Nov 13, 2005, at 3:56 AM, Danny Ayers wrote:


Post featuring survey of class/id names used in the wild -

http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/real_world_sema.html

my favourite is: class="BottomWhite"


Funny, my first reaction was that it *was* semantic, and referring to  
toilet paper



Cheers,
Danny.


Seriously, this is actually a great resource, and a sober reminder.   
Thanks for finding it!


-- Ernie P.





--

http://dannyayers.com
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat idea: store hours

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Paul,

To be honest, I have a hard time seeing what (if any) advantage this  
has over just using hCard and hCalendar.  The only question I have is  
whether hCalendar is generic enough to say things like:

Summer:
  Monday to Friday, 8AM to 5 PM
  Saturday 9 AM to 9 PM
  Sunday closed
Winter:
 
 Open weekends except Thanksgiving and Christimas


That is, this does just sound to me like a calendar entry (after all  
hCalendar allows location fields).  However, I can't think of any way  
to represent a "non-event" like "closed", as an exception to an  
existing event.


That's the same problem I see with chains vs. individuals.  I'd like  
to be able to say, "All stores follows these hours, unless specified  
otherwise."  It would be to have a 'class vs. instance' distinction/ 
inheritance, though I'm not sure how.


-- Ernie P.


On Nov 11, 2005, at 11:47 AM, Paul Schreiber wrote:

I mentioned this to Tantek a few weeks ago, and he said I should  
email the list.


One type of structured data I would like to see on the web is store  
hours. It would be really nice if I could go to a web site and find  
out easily, and in a standard manner, what the hours of operation  
are for that business.


My first thought is that there is a lot of overlap with the  
vcalendar microformat.


My second thought is that there are a lot of contingencies/edge  
cases. For example:
* what about a web site for a chain of stores, each with different  
hours?
* what about a Target with one set of hours for the main store and  
one set for the pharmacy?

* what about exceptions, like holidays?
* what about stores with different sets of seasonal hours?

I'm sure the list has more ideas on this topic, and I'd love to  
hear them.





Paul

 shad 96c / uw cs 2001
   / mac activist / fumbler / eda / headliner / navy-souper
fan of / sophie b. / steve poltz / habs / bills / 49ers /

"Photons have neither morals or visas." -- Dave Farber
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for tagspeak ?

[Dr. Ernie Prabhakar]

Hi Sriram,

A fascinating question.   To make this more concrete, in  
microformat's own wiki I would love to be able to specify "rel" for  
links and "class" for data in MediaWiki syntax without having to  
write out all the HTML.


I think there's certainly something worthwhile there, though I'm not  
sure what.  Care to create a tagspeak-examples page?


-- Ernie P.

On Nov 10, 2005, at 8:31 PM, S. Sriram wrote:


Hi,

I'd like to know if tagspeak is something that microformats could  
attempt to

formalize ?

tagspeak is the way in which everday users construct tags.
tags are currently constructed in one of two ways:
1. with a link using the rel-tag or in gada.be's case using  
tag.gada.be

2. in plain text as in delicious, flickr and other taggable services

Punctuations that are in use with tags are

@ to denote a group in shadows.com and jots.com
: to denote a separator in the the proposed delicious groups  
formulation

  groupname: tag [1]
+ To denote a tag intrsection in delicious/technorati and takes
  the place of a space
- used by gada.be in the same way as + is used by others
= As a delimiter to denote an iname [2]

For a  few other tagspeak models see my blog [3]

I wonder if this is something that fits within the microformats
umbrella and if so has there been any work done on it ?

[1] http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/mtarchive/ 
berkman_joshua_schachter.html

[2]
http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/itag/itag.cfm? 
save=true&pname=itag&purlname=ita

g&wname=itag
[3] http://sriram.wordpress.com/

Thanks
S. Sriram

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