Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
I have to say this discussion has brightened my day up no end (and that of my co-workers). The thought of a bunch of gun-toting Americans cleaning all the tracksuit-wearing hoodies out of our local shopping centres and bus stations with military hardware has tickled me no end. If you can smuggle the artillery in, please feel free to come and reclaim our urban centres for us over here. 2008/8/18 Ziots, Edward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did I get involved with this discussion? BTW my guns are bigger than yours. ( cause I am ex military) I have shot things that put big holes in houses and other concrete structures. Try out a M240 Grenade Launcher and a M249SAW LAW, AT4, MG60 SKS, AK 47, AR 15, 9mm, Glock, Beretta, M16A1,A2,A3, and ohh yeah C4 and DET CORD! (Darn silly engineers!) yeah and MDI, I could say others but national security would come get my butt J Z Take that Shook J Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 -- *From:* Andy Shook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 4:07 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm your huckleberry… Shook *From:* James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - *From:* Jonathan Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, *James Kerr* [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - *From:* Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) *From:* Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. -- *From:* James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - *From:* Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. *From:* Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 18:00 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? -- *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Ohh yeah shot M105 and M155 Smooth Core Artillery in my Enlisted days as a FOB, (Forward Observer or FIST) so we can bring that to the table too. Sounds a real game of World risk, just the stakes got a lot higher... Z Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:54 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Christ you guys get to work early! Or do you have to clean your tanks and rocket launchers so you get up earlier? :-) 2008/8/19 Ziots, Edward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ohh yeah shot M105 and M155 Smooth Core Artillery in my Enlisted days as a FOB, (Forward Observer or FIST) so we can bring that to the table too. Sounds a real game of World risk, just the stakes got a lot higher… Z Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 -- *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:54 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Yeah I am in patch week it starts today at 4:00am EST and goes till 7:00pm est tonight, and then I get to spin it up tomorrow at 3:00am again :-) Z Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:06 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Thanks for the link! Christopher J. Bosak Vector Company c. 847.603.4673 [EMAIL PROTECTED] You need to install an RTFM Interface, due to an LBNC issue. - B.O.F.H. (Merged 2 into 1) - Me -Original Message- From: Angus Scott-Fleming [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 16:59 hrs To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? On 18 Aug 2008 at 15:38, Christopher J. Bosak wrote: And I thought I was the only one who carried on this list. If I´m ever in SC, I´ll have to look you up as well. Geeks With Guns http://www.geekswithguns.com/ -- Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApps, Tucson, Arizona 1-520-290-5038 +---+ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
For a price, we can do anything! I'll do anything for coffee! (Where is over here?) Bullets are forever. I do not love the sharp sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its' swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. J.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:54 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? I have to say this discussion has brightened my day up no end (and that of my co-workers). The thought of a bunch of gun-toting Americans cleaning all the tracksuit-wearing hoodies out of our local shopping centres and bus stations with military hardware has tickled me no end. If you can smuggle the artillery in, please feel free to come and reclaim our urban centres for us over here. 2008/8/18 Ziots, Edward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did I get involved with this discussion? BTW my guns are bigger than yours. ( cause I am ex military) I have shot things that put big holes in houses and other concrete structures. Try out a M240 Grenade Launcher and a M249SAW LAW, AT4, MG60 SKS, AK 47, AR 15, 9mm, Glock, Beretta, M16A1,A2,A3, and ohh yeah C4 and DET CORD! (Darn silly engineers!) yeah and MDI, I could say others but national security would come get my butt J Z Take that Shook J Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 From: Andy Shook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:07 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm your huckleberry... Shook From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Link mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
On 19 Aug 2008 at 9:53, James Rankin wrote: I have to say this discussion has brightened my day up no end (and that of my co-workers). The thought of a bunch of gun-toting Americans cleaning all the tracksuit-wearing hoodies out of our local shopping centres and bus stations with military hardware has tickled me no end. If you can smuggle the artillery in, please feel free to come and reclaim our urban centres for us over here. Scotland-the-Brave: The Romantic Vigilante http://storiesonline.net/story/55922 Log in using Bugmenot if you need to ... -- Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApps, Tucson, Arizona 1-520-290-5038 +---+ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Can't resist. First thing that came to my head!! (And a mantra that I can very much relate to) Ladies and Gentlemen of the class of ’99 If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience…I will dispense this advice now. Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth; oh nevermind; you will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they have faded. But trust me, in 20 years you’ll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can’t grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked….You’re not as fat as you imagine. Don’t worry about the future; or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubblegum. The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind; the kind that blindside you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday. Do one thing everyday that scares you Sing Don’t be reckless with other people’s hearts, don’t put up with people who are reckless with yours. Floss Don’t waste your time on jealousy; sometimes you’re ahead, sometimes you’re behind…the race is long, and in the end, it’s only with yourself. Remember the compliments you receive, forget the insults; if you succeed in doing this, tell me how. Keep your old love letters, throw away your old bank statements. Stretch Don’t feel guilty if you don’t know what you want to do with your life…the most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know still don’t. Get plenty of calcium. Be kind to your knees, you’ll miss them when they’re gone. Maybe you’ll marry, maybe you won’t, maybe you’ll have children,maybe you won’t, maybe you’ll divorce at 40, maybe you’ll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary…what ever you do, don’t congratulate yourself too much or berate yourself either – your choices are half chance, so are everybody else’s. Enjoy your body, use it every way you can…don’t be afraid of it, or what other people think of it, it’s the greatest instrument you’ll ever own.. Dance…even if you have nowhere to do it but in your own living room. Read the directions, even if you don’t follow them. Do NOT read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly. Get to know your parents, you never know when they’ll be gone for good. Be nice to your siblings; they are the best link to your past and the people most likely to stick with you in the future. Understand that friends come and go,but for the precious few you should hold on. Work hard to bridge the gaps in geography and lifestyle because the older you get, the more you need the people you knew when you were young. Live in New York City once, but leave before it makes you hard; live in Northern California once, but leave before it makes you soft. Travel. Accept certain inalienable truths, prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old, and when you do you’ll fantasize that when you were young prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders. Respect your elders. Don’t expect anyone else to support you. Maybe you have a trust fund, maybe you have a wealthy spouse; but you never know when either one might run out. Don’t mess too much with your hair, or by the time you're 40, it will look 85. Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth. But trust me on the sunscreen… On Aug 17, 2008, at 8:44 PM, John Hornbuckle wrote: When I look at the number of IT people I know—really good people with great expertise—who put in a ton of hours for mediocre pay, I can’t help but conclude that it’s just not that easy to go out and negotiate more pay. My sense is that jobs like yours are few and far between. I absolutely agree that it’s all about supply and demand; there’s a healthy supply of IT people willing to let themselves be screwed. I encounter them on a regular basis. If they quit, someone else will be willing to take their place. As for education… I scored in the 74th percentile on the GMAT, and my Master’s classes start on the 25th. J From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:13 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? From: John Hornbuckle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 18 August 2008 12:27 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I’m not so much concerned about the specific titles used as I am about sysadmins, as a group, being paid well for their expertise
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of Systems Engineer ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. From: Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. *From:* Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of Systems Engineer ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. *From:* Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. *From:* Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of Systems Engineer ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. *From:* Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart... From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of Systems Engineer ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. From: Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of I do it because I can't do anything else etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly From: Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 15:49 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart... From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Yes emigration is definitely becoming my only hope here in the UK, what with the ever-increasing mortgage on my 2-bedroom semi with a square yard of garden, the rocketing price of food and beer, and the lack of respect in general day-to-day society. US, Canada or New Zealand sounds great, especially if I can do it before my (soon-to-be-arriving) twin children get particularly old. 2008/8/18 Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of I do it because I can't do anything else etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly *From:* Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 15:49 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart… *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. *From:* Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
James, Do it mate. I'm on the south coast, two kids, usual kinda life etc. I agree with everything you said particularly the respect within society (though with the demands put on everyone to generate tax it's hardly suprising no one has time or gives a damn). My misses and I are sorely tempted by Canada. If our parents weren't a factor then it would already been done. Olly From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 16:23 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Yes emigration is definitely becoming my only hope here in the UK, what with the ever-increasing mortgage on my 2-bedroom semi with a square yard of garden, the rocketing price of food and beer, and the lack of respect in general day-to-day society. US, Canada or New Zealand sounds great, especially if I can do it before my (soon-to-be-arriving) twin children get particularly old. 2008/8/18 Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of I do it because I can't do anything else etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly From: Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 15:49 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart... From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
I do it because I enjoy the complete arbitrary and capricious use of power. The bribery and corruption is down this year, but we can usually make do by upping the blackmail quotient. Note to internal audit: just kidding, guys, really! From: Oliver Marshall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:26 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? James, Do it mate. I'm on the south coast, two kids, usual kinda life etc. I agree with everything you said particularly the respect within society (though with the demands put on everyone to generate tax it's hardly suprising no one has time or gives a damn). My misses and I are sorely tempted by Canada. If our parents weren't a factor then it would already been done. Olly From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 16:23 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Yes emigration is definitely becoming my only hope here in the UK, what with the ever-increasing mortgage on my 2-bedroom semi with a square yard of garden, the rocketing price of food and beer, and the lack of respect in general day-to-day society. US, Canada or New Zealand sounds great, especially if I can do it before my (soon-to-be-arriving) twin children get particularly old. 2008/8/18 Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of I do it because I can't do anything else etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly From: Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 15:49 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart... From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
I think I am going to try and start to sort it as soon as the kids arrive, might take a while to get done, but the thought of big gardens, cheap petrol and no hoodies/chavs appeals to me no end! 2008/8/18 Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] James, Do it mate. I'm on the south coast, two kids, usual kinda life etc. I agree with everything you said particularly the respect within society (though with the demands put on everyone to generate tax it's hardly suprising no one has time or gives a damn). My misses and I are sorely tempted by Canada. If our parents weren't a factor then it would already been done. Olly *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 16:23 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Yes emigration is definitely becoming my only hope here in the UK, what with the ever-increasing mortgage on my 2-bedroom semi with a square yard of garden, the rocketing price of food and beer, and the lack of respect in general day-to-day society. US, Canada or New Zealand sounds great, especially if I can do it before my (soon-to-be-arriving) twin children get particularly old. 2008/8/18 Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of I do it because I can't do anything else etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly *From:* Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 15:49 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart… *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Oliver, come on in, the water is fine (but bring an extra coat for winter). On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James, Do it mate. I'm on the south coast, two kids, usual kinda life etc. I agree with everything you said particularly the respect within society (though with the demands put on everyone to generate tax it's hardly suprising no one has time or gives a damn). My misses and I are sorely tempted by Canada. If our parents weren't a factor then it would already been done. Olly *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 16:23 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Yes emigration is definitely becoming my only hope here in the UK, what with the ever-increasing mortgage on my 2-bedroom semi with a square yard of garden, the rocketing price of food and beer, and the lack of respect in general day-to-day society. US, Canada or New Zealand sounds great, especially if I can do it before my (soon-to-be-arriving) twin children get particularly old. 2008/8/18 Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of I do it because I can't do anything else etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly *From:* Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 15:49 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart… *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
We have something similar in the states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavs - Original Message - From: Kim Longenbaugh To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:00 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? -- From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? -- From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
On 16 Aug 2008 at 23:04, Jon Harris wrote: Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge?Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. In Arizona you can't use the word Engineer in your title or company name unless you are licensed as a P.E. by the state. My penultimate real job was as a geophysicist for Zonge Engineering and Research Organization, and the owner had to pay a licensed P.E. a monthly fee to be listed on the company books so he could keep the company name, which he'd had for years before they started enforcing this law. It affected Netware CNE engineers when it happened, too. -- Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApps, Tucson, Arizona 1-520-290-5038 +---+ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Sometimes I read the most redonkulous stuff on tech lists. On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 1:11 PM, Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. -- ME2 ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. -- From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Awesome quote! Love that movie/character! On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Jonathan Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? -- ME2 ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Please do. I can reserve the Qualification bay and bring some weapons. You supply the coffee. From: Jonathan Link [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:38 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Link To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. -- From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
I'm your huckleberry... Shook From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Linkmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issuesmailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsaymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issuesmailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshallmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issuesmailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
One of my all-time favorite movies! Don Guyer Systems Engineer Information Services Department Prudential Fox Roach/ Trident 431 W. Lancaster Avenue Devon, PA 19333 Ph: (610) 993-3299 Fax: (610) 650-5306 www.prufoxroach.com blocked::blocked::http://www.prufoxroach.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Andy Shook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:07 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm your huckleberry... Shook From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Link mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? /pre table width=100%trtd class=body This email and any files transmitted with it are confidentialbr and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity tobr whom they are addressed. It may contain information protected by br state
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Did I get involved with this discussion? BTW my guns are bigger than yours. ( cause I am ex military) I have shot things that put big holes in houses and other concrete structures. Try out a M240 Grenade Launcher and a M249SAW LAW, AT4, MG60 SKS, AK 47, AR 15, 9mm, Glock, Beretta, M16A1,A2,A3, and ohh yeah C4 and DET CORD! (Darn silly engineers!) yeah and MDI, I could say others but national security would come get my butt :-) Z Take that Shook :-) Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 From: Andy Shook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:07 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm your huckleberry... Shook From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Link mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
And I thought I was the only one who carried on this list. If I'm ever in SC, I'll have to look you up as well. Christopher J. Bosak Vector Company c. 847.603.4673 [EMAIL PROTECTED] You need to install an RTFM Interface, due to an LBNC issue. - B.O.F.H. (Merged 2 into 1) - Me From: Steve Kelsay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:56 hrs To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Please do. I can reserve the Qualification bay and bring some weapons. You supply the coffee. From: Jonathan Link [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:38 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. _ From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? _ From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) *From:* Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. -- *From:* James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - *From:* Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. *From:* Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 18:00 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? -- *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
I wonder it your coarse would work in Florida? Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) *From:* Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. -- *From:* James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - *From:* Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. *From:* Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 18 August 2008 18:00 *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? -- *From:* James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
If you're reasonably capable as an IT worker - and with that I include social skills - you have *way* more on the ball than your average want fries with that? worker. If you had to, you could get a job doing lots of other things, but usually at a lower rate of pay, or in a less challenging and/or satisfying position. IMHO, of course. On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:15 AM, Oliver Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure what it's like on the other side of the great divide (I imagine that you all have big cars and all back gardens are acres in size) but I'm very surprised that so many people responded saying that they enjoyed their position, or did it for positive reasons. I was expecting to see a lot more of I do it because I can't do anything else etc. Certainly I know far more IT workers over here are massively over-worked, over stressed, hassled by bosses looking to use them to implement dictatorial technical working conditions and by users who are looking to blame them for not working as hard as they should. I, for one, am definitely off to the States, even if it's just for the sake of my aura. Olly From: Holstrom, Don [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 15:49 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I do it for love and money and responsibility. This is a second career for me, retired as a speechwriter 10 years ago. I have been a sysadmin (one-man-shop) for two different organizations ever since. I am now 60. I consider this a blue collar job with white collar working conditions and pay. I was always told I was a good writer, easy to understand, eminently speakable/readable. I took that as complimentary. It was easy for me to write, made lots of dough, able to retire at 50. Always had gadgets as an interest, as a hobbyist. When the opportunity arose, I took the job to work with 'puters fulltime. I love the work, well, not every minute, but 99% of the time. Average 50 hours a week, year round. But can take off when I need or simply want. When you are 60, it's not often you will sleep through the night, so I check the Museum's servers all the time. Hey, better than 98% of what's on the idiot box at that hour. When I wrote, I usually had one boss. Now I consider every user at the Museum where I work as my boss. I never call them losers (well, except under my breath every so often, infrequently). I feel my job is to make sure all the systems are go and everyone has access. Full inclusion over exclusion. I want to make their jobs better. But I'm an old fart… From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:12 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? To add my two cents worth to this subject - I find a lot of the time I do extra hours for no reward is to make sure things run correctly. Years ago when I worked for a large outsourcer I was continually cleaning up the messes of IT systems that had been designed and run very poorly. Now I find even when I take the morning off, the people I work with still don't follow best practises that I document thoroughly for them, even down to little things like ensuring servers are in the right OUs, putting descriptions on AD objects, ensuring resources have the right naming convention, etc. Which means I always spend an extra couple of hours putting everything right for no reward. Maybe I could just hope these colleagues eventually get sacked and replaced by ones who listen a little more, but my boss is one of the worst offenders (especially at following change control procedures - the bane of my life) and I doubt that the slapdash attitude will change anytime soon. At least as long as they all know I am there to clean things up for them. 2008/8/18 Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] That was one of 2 different ones I thought was correct but I did not want to point a finger incorrectly. The other was New Mexico but I was not sure which one it was or even if my memory was right. Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was Texas, where the definition of an Engineer is defined by law. Or that was the story USA Today printed. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Yep. Actually ANY firearms training course is fine with Florida. NRA basic, Military training, 4H, pretty near anything. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 16:50 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? I wonder it your coarse would work in Florida? Jon On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
I was a tanker and 10th SF group. M48 through M1s, CEVs (165mm) Sheridans, etc. Mortars, 60mm through 4.2 inch. 40 pound cratering charges do a nice job on hard drives too. (G) From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 16:30 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Did I get involved with this discussion? BTW my guns are bigger than yours. ( cause I am ex military) I have shot things that put big holes in houses and other concrete structures. Try out a M240 Grenade Launcher and a M249SAW LAW, AT4, MG60 SKS, AK 47, AR 15, 9mm, Glock, Beretta, M16A1,A2,A3, and ohh yeah C4 and DET CORD! (Darn silly engineers!) yeah and MDI, I could say others but national security would come get my butt J Z Take that Shook J Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 From: Andy Shook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:07 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm your huckleberry... Shook From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Link mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Which is why, of course, you need one of these: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/9080/ On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Steve Kelsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
I'll be your huckelberry... On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Micheal Espinola Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Awesome quote! Love that movie/character! On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Jonathan Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? -- ME2 ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Now OT (RE: So, Why Do We Do It?)
+1 for four deuce... Dave Lum From: Steve Kelsay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:56 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I was a tanker and 10th SF group. M48 through M1s, CEVs (165mm) Sheridans, etc. Mortars, 60mm through 4.2 inch. 40 pound cratering charges do a nice job on hard drives too. (G) From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 16:30 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Did I get involved with this discussion? BTW my guns are bigger than yours. ( cause I am ex military) I have shot things that put big holes in houses and other concrete structures. Try out a M240 Grenade Launcher and a M249SAW LAW, AT4, MG60 SKS, AK 47, AR 15, 9mm, Glock, Beretta, M16A1,A2,A3, and ohh yeah C4 and DET CORD! (Darn silly engineers!) yeah and MDI, I could say others but national security would come get my butt :) Z Take that Shook :) Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 From: Andy Shook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:07 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm your huckleberry... Shook From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Linkmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issuesmailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsaymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issuesmailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshallmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issuesmailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing a hoodie will knife you as soon as look at you. From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 August 2008 18:00 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? What are hoodies/chavs? From: James Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:42 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
On 18 Aug 2008 at 15:38, Christopher J. Bosak wrote: And I thought I was the only one who carried on this list. If I´m ever in SC, I´ll have to look you up as well. Geeks With Guns http://www.geekswithguns.com/ -- Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApps, Tucson, Arizona 1-520-290-5038 +---+ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
On 18 Aug 2008 at 13:56, Kurt Buff wrote: Which is why, of course, you need one of these: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/9080/ *_Aluminum_* chain mail ??? Why bother ?? -- Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApps, Tucson, Arizona 1-520-290-5038 +---+ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Angus Scott-Fleming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 18 Aug 2008 at 13:56, Kurt Buff wrote: Which is why, of course, you need one of these: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/9080/ *_Aluminum_* chain mail ??? Why bother ?? Because it'll stop a moron with a knife? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
The CWP classes are really taking off. After every school shooting, church or mall shooting, or threat of civil unrest ALA Katrina, my phone starts ringing again. -Original Message- From: Angus Scott-Fleming [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 17:59 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? On 18 Aug 2008 at 15:38, Christopher J. Bosak wrote: And I thought I was the only one who carried on this list. If I´m ever in SC, I´ll have to look you up as well. Geeks With Guns http://www.geekswithguns.com/ -- Angus Scott-Fleming GeoApps, Tucson, Arizona 1-520-290-5038 +---+ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Now OT (RE: So, Why Do We Do It?)
Section, HE quick, Nuke in effect, 8 rounds, 60 vdiwdpuiacp, At my Command... Probably different now, but I can recite that in my sleep. I LOVED those things as an EM, then I got to command a Mortar platoon, then a Combat Support Company in an armor battalion, the only infantry in the battalion were with me and the scouts. What morale! And I actually knew how to use them! Don't even ask about the ADM-41s. Neat little devices that make a decent sized hole. From: David Lum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 16:59 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Now OT (RE: So, Why Do We Do It?) +1 for four deuce... Dave Lum From: Steve Kelsay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:56 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I was a tanker and 10th SF group. M48 through M1s, CEVs (165mm) Sheridans, etc. Mortars, 60mm through 4.2 inch. 40 pound cratering charges do a nice job on hard drives too. (G) From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 16:30 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Did I get involved with this discussion? BTW my guns are bigger than yours. ( cause I am ex military) I have shot things that put big holes in houses and other concrete structures. Try out a M240 Grenade Launcher and a M249SAW LAW, AT4, MG60 SKS, AK 47, AR 15, 9mm, Glock, Beretta, M16A1,A2,A3, and ohh yeah C4 and DET CORD! (Darn silly engineers!) yeah and MDI, I could say others but national security would come get my butt J Z Take that Shook J Edward E. Ziots Network Engineer Lifespan Organization MCSE,MCSA,MCP,Security+,Network+,CCA Phone: 401-639-3505 From: Andy Shook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:07 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm your huckleberry... Shook From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:57 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Why Ed does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend... I just don't think I could bear it! - Original Message - From: Jonathan Link mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? You're a daisy if you do. On 8/18/08, James Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can shoot from the hip!! Full disclosure: I am competitive shooter of the USPSA and IDPA flavor. Though, if I am ever in SC maybe I will have to look you up. - Original Message - From: Steve Kelsay mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? A common mistake. If they are within 21 feet of you, it will be a tie between their knife and your Glock. In case of a tie, you lose. Not a good result. And that is if you are ready for an attack. In most cases, your are the ambushee, and do not know you that you are a victim until they are bad breath distance from you. If you are ever in SC, Come take my course. I'll show you. (Extreme Close Quarters Gunfighting, and the SC SLED Concealable weapons course) From: Kim Longenbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 14:49 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Ah, them. Yep, Glock's are good. From: James Kerr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:21 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? They are called hood rats here. We have them too but we can defend ourselves in the US, (well most states). Their knife is no match for my Glock. - Original Message - From: Oliver Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NT System Admin Issues mailto:ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:11 PM Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? Hoodies relate to hooded sweatshirts. Those that wear them are called Hoodies. The general stereo-type is that someone wearing
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
It's aluminum and open rings so 'probably'. Aluminum being soft doesn't always hold it's form under weight and motion that chain mail gets while being worn so links would have to be checked regularly and maintained. It's also open links, not welded or riveted links so that increases it's 'wear' a bit more. I know steel rings works for this protection but again, this is protection is against penetration and without padding will do nothing to protect against the blunt impact of a piece of steel being shoved in you. Now, you would be alive and the attacker a bit stunned but you would get poked by the tip which should give you a shot of adrenaline to react with. Steven On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Angus Scott-Fleming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 18 Aug 2008 at 13:56, Kurt Buff wrote: Which is why, of course, you need one of these: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/9080/ *_Aluminum_* chain mail ??? Why bother ?? Because it'll stop a moron with a knife? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Well, it certainly won't stop an unbated foil, nor probably an epee, but against the usual street punk with a knife, I rather have it than not. If I were actually serious, rather than playing here on the list, I'd prefer a lighter arrangement - overlapping ceramic disks, strung on titanium wire, or something equally expensive. Kurt On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Steven Peck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's aluminum and open rings so 'probably'. Aluminum being soft doesn't always hold it's form under weight and motion that chain mail gets while being worn so links would have to be checked regularly and maintained. It's also open links, not welded or riveted links so that increases it's 'wear' a bit more. I know steel rings works for this protection but again, this is protection is against penetration and without padding will do nothing to protect against the blunt impact of a piece of steel being shoved in you. Now, you would be alive and the attacker a bit stunned but you would get poked by the tip which should give you a shot of adrenaline to react with. Steven On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Angus Scott-Fleming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 18 Aug 2008 at 13:56, Kurt Buff wrote: Which is why, of course, you need one of these: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/9080/ *_Aluminum_* chain mail ??? Why bother ?? Because it'll stop a moron with a knife? ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
Here's an interesting discussion on the topic: http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1070273page=2 One poster talks about software engineers and why they're not really engineers, but his points apply to network people just as well: 1) Low barrier to entry into the profession 2) Desire to keep salaries low by business 3) Schedule-driven development, not safety-driven 4) Cultural personal reasons (developers are usually very independent) 5) No central body to certify software developers as engineers 6) No body of knowledge which all software engineers can be required to understand 7) Rapid change in the industry (who wants to take a engineering certification test in COBOL?) I'm not so much concerned about the specific titles used as I am about sysadmins, as a group, being paid well for their expertise and time. Call me an administrator, call me an engineer, call me a geek-I don't care, so long as you don't ask me to work 60 hours a week for 40-hour pay. From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:05 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of Systems Engineer ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. From: Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
From: John Hornbuckle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 18 August 2008 12:27 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm not so much concerned about the specific titles used as I am about sysadmins, as a group, being paid well for their expertise and time. Call me an administrator, call me an engineer, call me a geek-I don't care, so long as you don't ask me to work 60 hours a week for 40-hour pay. Well, if you want more pay, then go out and negotiate more pay. There are places that will pay for good staff - but proving that you are actually good can be the tricky part. If you don't want to work 60 hours, then don't, or find a new job. Salaries are, at the broadest extreme, determined by supply and demand. If you want to be able to demand better conditions or higher wages, then you're going to need to move yourself to a market niche where you skills/knowledge/experience command a premium. FWIW, I'm on a nice six figure package. But I have two degrees (inc a Masters in business), a bunch of current certs (3 x MCITP, MCSE+Security, MCBDA), track record at my company, Microsoft MVP, written a couple of books, spoken at plenty of tech.eds/conferences etc. I do this other stuff because I like helping people, but it also helps career-wise. People are much more likely to approach you to work on a large, enterprise, project for $1000/day or $2000/day *if* you have a reputation as one of the leaders in the field. There are too many crap people in IT - people who don't really understand what they're doing, and have no interest in doing so. They think they're going a good job technology wise, but really they deliver poor business outcomes (compared to what they could potentially deliver if they used technology better). I think that's one reason why a lot of smaller companies aren't willing to spend big dollars on IT salaries - too much risk of getting someone rubbish. But if you go to somewhere like a large bank or technology company - companies that depend on technology and understand how technology is vital to keeping their business running, then you can certainly earn a lot more. Cheers Ken ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
When I look at the number of IT people I know-really good people with great expertise-who put in a ton of hours for mediocre pay, I can't help but conclude that it's just not that easy to go out and negotiate more pay. My sense is that jobs like yours are few and far between. I absolutely agree that it's all about supply and demand; there's a healthy supply of IT people willing to let themselves be screwed. I encounter them on a regular basis. If they quit, someone else will be willing to take their place. As for education... I scored in the 74th percentile on the GMAT, and my Master's classes start on the 25th. :) From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:13 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? From: John Hornbuckle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 18 August 2008 12:27 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? I'm not so much concerned about the specific titles used as I am about sysadmins, as a group, being paid well for their expertise and time. Call me an administrator, call me an engineer, call me a geek-I don't care, so long as you don't ask me to work 60 hours a week for 40-hour pay. Well, if you want more pay, then go out and negotiate more pay. There are places that will pay for good staff - but proving that you are actually good can be the tricky part. If you don't want to work 60 hours, then don't, or find a new job. Salaries are, at the broadest extreme, determined by supply and demand. If you want to be able to demand better conditions or higher wages, then you're going to need to move yourself to a market niche where you skills/knowledge/experience command a premium. FWIW, I'm on a nice six figure package. But I have two degrees (inc a Masters in business), a bunch of current certs (3 x MCITP, MCSE+Security, MCBDA), track record at my company, Microsoft MVP, written a couple of books, spoken at plenty of tech.eds/conferences etc. I do this other stuff because I like helping people, but it also helps career-wise. People are much more likely to approach you to work on a large, enterprise, project for $1000/day or $2000/day *if* you have a reputation as one of the leaders in the field. There are too many crap people in IT - people who don't really understand what they're doing, and have no interest in doing so. They think they're going a good job technology wise, but really they deliver poor business outcomes (compared to what they could potentially deliver if they used technology better). I think that's one reason why a lot of smaller companies aren't willing to spend big dollars on IT salaries - too much risk of getting someone rubbish. But if you go to somewhere like a large bank or technology company - companies that depend on technology and understand how technology is vital to keeping their business running, then you can certainly earn a lot more. Cheers Ken ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
From: John Hornbuckle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 18 August 2008 10:45 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: So, Why Do We Do It? When I look at the number of IT people I know-really good people with great expertise-who put in a ton of hours for mediocre pay, I can't help but conclude that it's just not that easy to go out and negotiate more pay. My sense is that jobs like yours are few and far between. There might not be a lot of them (as a % of all IT jobs), but they aren't a small number. Most major financial companies (national or international), most global corporations, a lot of the larger technology companies (e.g. Microsoft) and most of the major higher-end consulting companies (IBM, HP, Avanade etc) will pay you much more than 40K. If you're going to be running or designing an AD for 50,000-500,000 users globally, then that's generally worth a lot more than $40K :-) ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
For me part of it is just loving what I do and a push to have everything work flawlessly. I regularly work 50-60 hours a week and on salary. If I work a Saturday or Sunday I get that comped. That being said I also wonder why I do so much without proper compensation. I live in the country on 1.5 acres so I do get away from technology when I want to. I take long lunches, get 3 weeks of vacation and 1 week of sick per year. I also have a good retirement that I think is pretty good, 12% of what I make is put into a pension plan and I also have a 401k that I put 10% into, with my work putting 6% matching into. I work in the private sector. On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us -- Mike Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
For me, it was definitely both the love of the tech, plus the freedom that consulting gave - flexible schedule, can go pick up the drycleaning or whatnot, something different every day. Lately though, my outfit has gotten really regimented and the scheduling pretty tight, so I'm just not feeling the love as much. I'm probably thinking my next job after this will not be consulting - I'm ready to settle down and grow my own network. What's keeping me going right now is frankly the opportunity to see a wide variety of the new Microsoft 2008 technologies before I do that. :) -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us -- -- Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a fish a man, and he'll eat for weeks! ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
It sounds like you've got a pretty good deal-probably better than most in this field. Pension plans are a rarity any more, and to get a 401(k) match on top of that is great. I just think of other professions, from mechanics on up to lawyers. Most charge by the hour, and if they put extra time into a project they're going to bill for it. But in IT it seems like we sell ourselves short, and work for free an awful lot. From: Mike Sullivan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 2:55 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? For me part of it is just loving what I do and a push to have everything work flawlessly. I regularly work 50-60 hours a week and on salary. If I work a Saturday or Sunday I get that comped. That being said I also wonder why I do so much without proper compensation. I live in the country on 1.5 acres so I do get away from technology when I want to. I take long lunches, get 3 weeks of vacation and 1 week of sick per year. I also have a good retirement that I think is pretty good, 12% of what I make is put into a pension plan and I also have a 401k that I put 10% into, with my work putting 6% matching into. I work in the private sector. On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask... Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private-that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.ushttp://www.taylor.k12.fl.us -- Mike Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've noticed a confluence of these traits in geeks, which seems to compel them to work the extra hours. I've oversimplified a lot of this, but it's a start... Kurt On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
John, I know for me it is that in 1 year, 10 months, and roughly 2 weeks I get to retire and go work for a company that will hopefully pay me better or not treat me like dirt simply because I try and save a bunch of (l)users from stupid mistakes. I am also tired of the after hours work for nothing other than the management will not allow me to do it any other way and the but you were not authorized to work those hours from managers that told me to get the job done but not disrupt anyone else's work schedule. I also know for me the overtime stopped for the most part when I went from salary to hourly. Now the managers have to sign off in advance of any OT work of any form. I still get emails and calls asking for me to fix something on my time off and I just refer them to my boss, I actually just forward the email to my boss or if they do accidentally get me to answer the phone I tell them to talk to him, he makes the rules. I have never gotten a second request and my junior has messed up a couple of times so no one asks him for anything more than something simple, but then he has been very good at hiding when there is work to be done anyway. I also get to work hours that for me mean I have to deal with the users a lot less, and makes the managers stew a bit more, but my supervisior actually likes my hours. I work 3 11.5 hour days and one 7 hour day. On days with more than 8 hours I am suppose to get a half hour for lunch but usually just stay in my office and ignore the phone. I also am at work a 4 am on my work days and since most of the staff don't usually get in until about 9 most of my day is done. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've noticed a confluence of these traits in geeks, which seems to compel them to work the extra hours. I've oversimplified a lot of this, but it's a start... Kurt On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've noticed a confluence of these traits in geeks, which seems to compel them to work the extra hours. I've oversimplified a lot of this, but it's a start... Kurt On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ -- -- Give a man
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
I suspect that if more of us were hourly, weeks would rarely exceed 40 hours! From: Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:22 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? John, I know for me it is that in 1 year, 10 months, and roughly 2 weeks I get to retire and go work for a company that will hopefully pay me better or not treat me like dirt simply because I try and save a bunch of (l)users from stupid mistakes. I am also tired of the after hours work for nothing other than the management will not allow me to do it any other way and the but you were not authorized to work those hours from managers that told me to get the job done but not disrupt anyone else's work schedule. I also know for me the overtime stopped for the most part when I went from salary to hourly. Now the managers have to sign off in advance of any OT work of any form. I still get emails and calls asking for me to fix something on my time off and I just refer them to my boss, I actually just forward the email to my boss or if they do accidentally get me to answer the phone I tell them to talk to him, he makes the rules. I have never gotten a second request and my junior has messed up a couple of times so no one asks him for anything more than something simple, but then he has been very good at hiding when there is work to be done anyway. I also get to work hours that for me mean I have to deal with the users a lot less, and makes the managers stew a bit more, but my supervisior actually likes my hours. I work 3 11.5 hour days and one 7 hour day. On days with more than 8 hours I am suppose to get a half hour for lunch but usually just stay in my office and ignore the phone. I also am at work a 4 am on my work days and since most of the staff don't usually get in until about 9 most of my day is done. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask... Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private-that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.ushttp://www.taylor.k12.fl.us/ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
I don't know about your place of work but part of my reason for counting the days is that the State of Florida has no controls in place, or at least none I have found that prevents abuse. I know a lot of it is in-born in me. I hate leaving a job undone or unfinished. My boss is aware of that and while he does not do it he also has refused to assist in stopping it by those above him. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Durf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've noticed a confluence of these traits in geeks, which seems to compel them to work the extra hours. I've oversimplified a lot of this, but it's a start... Kurt On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
John - This is more true than you'd think. In an effort to cut costs, my company has recently frozen overtime for hourly employees. Well, all of our associate consultants - the front-line PC jockeys who do the basic user support - are hourly. This means they are effectively never on-call after hours, and cannot be used for after-hours projects. So what does the burden fall upon? The senior, salaried staff. Because we don't get overtime. The on-call escalation traditionally had an associate as #1, and a senior as #2 - now that's been inverted. All salaried, senior consultants are on-call #1 - because we don't cost the company overtime. Be careful what you wish for... -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect that if more of us were hourly, weeks would rarely exceed 40 hours! *From:* Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:22 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? John, I know for me it is that in 1 year, 10 months, and roughly 2 weeks I get to retire and go work for a company that will hopefully pay me better or not treat me like dirt simply because I try and save a bunch of (l)users from stupid mistakes. I am also tired of the after hours work for nothing other than the management will not allow me to do it any other way and the but you were not authorized to work those hours from managers that told me to get the job done but not disrupt anyone else's work schedule. I also know for me the overtime stopped for the most part when I went from salary to hourly. Now the managers have to sign off in advance of any OT work of any form. I still get emails and calls asking for me to fix something on my time off and I just refer them to my boss, I actually just forward the email to my boss or if they do accidentally get me to answer the phone I tell them to talk to him, he makes the rules. I have never gotten a second request and my junior has messed up a couple of times so no one asks him for anything more than something simple, but then he has been very good at hiding when there is work to be done anyway. I also get to work hours that for me mean I have to deal with the users a lot less, and makes the managers stew a bit more, but my supervisior actually likes my hours. I work 3 11.5 hour days and one 7 hour day. On days with more than 8 hours I am suppose to get a half hour for lunch but usually just stay in my office and ignore the phone. I also am at work a 4 am on my work days and since most of the staff don't usually get in until about 9 most of my day is done. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us -- -- Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a fish a man, and he'll eat for weeks! ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: So, Why Do We Do It?
We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of Systems Engineer ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. From: Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've noticed a confluence of these traits in geeks, which seems to compel them to work the extra hours. I've oversimplified a lot of this, but it's a start... Kurt On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask... Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
I doubt that would stop it much. I know for me at least I have a boss that has to sign my timesheet and will not sign off on any OT without someone else handing him a paper saying they have the budget to pay for it. I also know that his boss has since my move from salary to hourly been trying to find a way to move me under him and make me work the OT without the pay in some manner. At the moment I am a person that has knowledge of 3 different fields all highly technical and all in short supply. My boss does not want to lose me because he can just tell me to drop the computers and work on another project without anyone being able to say a thing. He is a rarity in State Government work let alone University work. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect that if more of us were hourly, weeks would rarely exceed 40 hours! *From:* Jon Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:22 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? John, I know for me it is that in 1 year, 10 months, and roughly 2 weeks I get to retire and go work for a company that will hopefully pay me better or not treat me like dirt simply because I try and save a bunch of (l)users from stupid mistakes. I am also tired of the after hours work for nothing other than the management will not allow me to do it any other way and the but you were not authorized to work those hours from managers that told me to get the job done but not disrupt anyone else's work schedule. I also know for me the overtime stopped for the most part when I went from salary to hourly. Now the managers have to sign off in advance of any OT work of any form. I still get emails and calls asking for me to fix something on my time off and I just refer them to my boss, I actually just forward the email to my boss or if they do accidentally get me to answer the phone I tell them to talk to him, he makes the rules. I have never gotten a second request and my junior has messed up a couple of times so no one asks him for anything more than something simple, but then he has been very good at hiding when there is work to be done anyway. I also get to work hours that for me mean I have to deal with the users a lot less, and makes the managers stew a bit more, but my supervisior actually likes my hours. I work 3 11.5 hour days and one 7 hour day. On days with more than 8 hours I am suppose to get a half hour for lunch but usually just stay in my office and ignore the phone. I also am at work a 4 am on my work days and since most of the staff don't usually get in until about 9 most of my day is done. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week is pretty rare for him. Looking at the poll in another thread and how many of us are basically on call 24x7x365 for no additional compensation, I have to ask… Why? Why, as a profession, do we allow ourselves to be treated this way? Is it that the pay is just so good that it's worth it? I know a few folks on this list have indicated that they get compensated pretty well, but my sense is that most of us just earn average pay and aren't living the high life. I'm not really sure why. We have skills that are in high demand, and take years to develop. Why are we selling ourselves short? Personally, my pay is just so-so. For the area I live in (poor, rural, and with a low cost of living) it's decent, and I do work in the public sector rather than private—that's always going to hit you win the wallet. But I generally get to make up the extra time with time off, a long lunch, maybe going in late or going home early. Plus I get vacation and sick leave that's pretty generous by American standards, and participation in the state retirement system. So all in all, I can't complain much. But I know a lot of people who work in the private sector for pay that's only so-so, and regularly work 60-hour weeks. Why? John Hornbuckle MIS Department Taylor County School District www.taylor.k12.fl.us ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: So, Why Do We Do It?
Is it my memory going bad or wasn't Network Engineer a few years back in some state not allowed as a title as the state in question did not have a test to Certify someone with that knowledge? Don't ask me the state but I think it was in the south west some place. I could be wrong I am getting old and forgetful. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We certainly fall into the professionals category; it takes no fewer years to become a good technician as it does to become a good lawyer or accountant. I'm afraid that many of us put in white-collar hours for blue-collar pay, though. We've done informal surveys here asking what we all make. Perhaps just as interesting would be a survey asking what our BOSSES make. Part of the problem is a lack of official accreditation. Lawyers and accountants have to take certain actions in order to call themselves lawyers and accounts. But anyone can call themselves an IT guy. Sure, we have specialized certifications (Microsoft's, CompTIA's, etc.), but nothing at a higher level. Perhaps a more formalized definition of Systems Engineer ought to be codified. Maybe the issue is that this field is still in its infancy, and somewhere down the road things will change. I know there have been movements towards this in the past, but they don't seem to have picked up any steam. *From:* Durf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:48 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: So, Why Do We Do It? Jon, you raise a lot of great points here. I have to ask, aside from WHY we do it, what do we think we are? Are we more like lawyers or accountants - or more like electricians or plumbers? Are we white-collar professionals, or blue-collar hourly workers? If we are more like lawers, then what? I have a lawyer friend who regularly works 100+ hour weeks. She also collected a $250,000 bonus last year, on top of her $100,00 regular salary. By saing that We're just geeks, and that's why we do it, aren't we kind of opening ourselves up for abuse by the employers who are aware of that and more than eager to exploit it? I'm sure a lot of lawyers are law geeks too, but they sure as heck seem to find ways to get compensated for their time. -- Durf On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Jon Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say seems to ring true. I came over to being a computer person because I got tired of having my hands tied about fixing things I saw were wrong. When you start as a regulator of a highly regulated industry and see people lying to stop things that should not have been stopped and you can now look back and say very loudly I told you so and they were kind enough to actually document my telling them so at the time and for the reasons that are now apparent it feels kind of good but you also feel sad to know that you could not make yourself understood at the time. At the time I thought nothing of 80 to 120 hour weeks for months on end. That is until I got called into my boss's boss office and told I was taking 3 weeks off starting as soon as I could that day. They loved the work till it is done attitude but the State hated it on a whole as a lot of the workers could not build up any time off and I had at that point something like 12+ weeks of just Comp time not counting vacation days or sick time. Jon On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Kurt Buff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're geeks. That carries a lot of freight, but let's start with a few things I've noticed: 1) geeks tend to like to concentrate on problem solving, and work through problems to their own satisfaction, though not necessarily to completion. 2) geeks tend to devalue personal interaction on the job - they're more about getting the work done, rather than the office politics - this is related to the above, but not the same. 3) geeks tend to be more honest than most - a controversial point, I know, but I believe it to be true. This means they don't like to let others down, and will work to get things going longer than others. 4) geeks like to be seen as heroes - uber-competent, and able to save the day, when nobody else can. 5) geeks tend to underestimate how long any task will take, because the field of network/systems administration is still in its infancy, and metrics are very hard to come by - leave aside the fact that we're doing some of the most complex work in the work force. It's not that non-geeks don't have these traits, but that I've noticed a confluence of these traits in geeks, which seems to compel them to work the extra hours. I've oversimplified a lot of this, but it's a start... Kurt On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM, John Hornbuckle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was recently talking to a technician who works for a company we sometimes hire for projects. He's salaried, but working just 40 hours in a week
