[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Greg Ewing]

On 5/07/20 8:30 am, MRAB wrote:

On 2020-07-04 21:07, Martin Dengler wrote:

How do you spell "regionalism"?

As far as I'm aware, there's only one way to spell it,


I suppose there could be some planet where it's spelled
"regionalizm".

--
Greg
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[MRAB]

On 2020-07-04 21:07, Martin Dengler wrote:

On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 05:51:04PM +0100, MRAB wrote:
>I'd also add: Try to avoid regionalisms; aim for a 
>broadly "international" form of the language. Some 


How do you spell "regionalism"?

Martin

PS: Irony intended


As far as I'm aware, there's only one way to spell it, but I'm sure 
someone can phrase it better.


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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Martin Dengler]

On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 05:51:04PM +0100, MRAB wrote:
I'd also add: Try to avoid regionalisms; aim for a 
broadly "international" form of the language. Some 


How do you spell "regionalism"?

Martin

PS: Irony intended
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[MRAB]

On 2020-07-04 16:23, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

@Inada-sama: For RFC conformance to S, see footnote [3] at the end.

MRAB writes:

  > If you believe you have something important to say, then at least
  > say it clearly.

Indeed -- that commit log is an example of the kind of writing the
reference to Strunk & White was intended to reduce; repetitive,
jargon-filled, and mostly unnecessary to make the point.[1]  Ironic,
but not the only irony to be found in this commit.

Because I have seen the deterrent effect in action -- *it is real* --
I'd be sympathetic to this change if I hadn't directly experienced the
value of a rule set like that in Strunk & White in teaching non-native
speakers about writing English for technical purposes.  Since I
believe an admonition to "write clear and easily understandable
English" is a deterrent too, especially for non-natives, I would
prefer deleting the whole thing to this change, though.

The claim is that requiring Strunk & White deters PoC.  I believe it.
But by discarding all rules, this change "centers" English-speakers at
the expense of the needs of large populations of *non-native-speaking*
PoC.  Many non-natives would benefit from adopting some of the advice
in Strunk & White for *writing* clearly, and if others follow that
advice, it would easier for them to *read*.[2]  Don't take my word for
it: Naoki Inada testifies to both issues in his post about "RFC
English".[3]

It has also been claimed that many neuro-atypical folks find detailed
rules comforting, as opposed to broad admonitions of that kind.  Seems
plausible, but I can't speak to it from personal experience or
testimony of acquaintances.  But if so, removing all reference to
concrete rules for clear writing harms and deters them, too.

But "practice what you preach" is a fallacy, I guess.  "Do what I say,
not what I do" is the way of the world.  Given human fallibility,
maybe this is a not-bad thing, to focus on the merits of folks' speech
rather than the demerits of their actions *shrug*

As I see it, in order of importance, we could say the following about
comments in Python:

1.  Comments should not say anything that a programmer with some
 experience can read directly from the code, taken out of the
 larger context.  That eliminates a lot of problematic text right
 off the bat! :-)

2.  Write comments in English.  It is the lingua franca [sic!] of
 programming, for better or worse, and Python development is an
 international community of programmers.  (The language may change,
 see "sic!" above.  Boy, would I enjoy watching some folks struggle
 with Hindi or Chinese.)

3.  Write in a comfortable dialect[4].  (Exceptions: legalese and
 The Academic Register are strictly forbidden, even if you're
 native in one of those. :-)
I'd also add: Try to avoid regionalisms; aim for a broadly 
"international" form of the language. Some words and phrases might be 
specific to a certain region, or have different, possibly conflicting, 
meanings elsewhere.

4.  Write clear and easily understandable comments, remembering that
 many potential readers are not native speakers, let alone native
 in "Standard" English.

5.  For advice on writing clearly, Zinsser is a good textbook on
 writing to communicate.  Strunk & White is a concise collection of
 concrete rules with examples of usage that help many to write more
 clearly, and its table of contents serves as a somewhat Petersian
 "Zen of Technical Writing".  (There may be better alternatives to
 both for those purposes, but I don't know of any.)

[snip]

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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

@Inada-sama: For RFC conformance to S, see footnote [3] at the end.

MRAB writes:

 > If you believe you have something important to say, then at least
 > say it clearly.

Indeed -- that commit log is an example of the kind of writing the
reference to Strunk & White was intended to reduce; repetitive,
jargon-filled, and mostly unnecessary to make the point.[1]  Ironic,
but not the only irony to be found in this commit.

Because I have seen the deterrent effect in action -- *it is real* --
I'd be sympathetic to this change if I hadn't directly experienced the
value of a rule set like that in Strunk & White in teaching non-native
speakers about writing English for technical purposes.  Since I
believe an admonition to "write clear and easily understandable
English" is a deterrent too, especially for non-natives, I would
prefer deleting the whole thing to this change, though.

The claim is that requiring Strunk & White deters PoC.  I believe it.
But by discarding all rules, this change "centers" English-speakers at
the expense of the needs of large populations of *non-native-speaking*
PoC.  Many non-natives would benefit from adopting some of the advice
in Strunk & White for *writing* clearly, and if others follow that
advice, it would easier for them to *read*.[2]  Don't take my word for
it: Naoki Inada testifies to both issues in his post about "RFC
English".[3]

It has also been claimed that many neuro-atypical folks find detailed
rules comforting, as opposed to broad admonitions of that kind.  Seems
plausible, but I can't speak to it from personal experience or
testimony of acquaintances.  But if so, removing all reference to
concrete rules for clear writing harms and deters them, too.

But "practice what you preach" is a fallacy, I guess.  "Do what I say,
not what I do" is the way of the world.  Given human fallibility,
maybe this is a not-bad thing, to focus on the merits of folks' speech
rather than the demerits of their actions *shrug*

As I see it, in order of importance, we could say the following about
comments in Python:

1.  Comments should not say anything that a programmer with some
experience can read directly from the code, taken out of the
larger context.  That eliminates a lot of problematic text right
off the bat! :-)

2.  Write comments in English.  It is the lingua franca [sic!] of
programming, for better or worse, and Python development is an
international community of programmers.  (The language may change,
see "sic!" above.  Boy, would I enjoy watching some folks struggle
with Hindi or Chinese.)

3.  Write in a comfortable dialect[4].  (Exceptions: legalese and
The Academic Register are strictly forbidden, even if you're
native in one of those. :-)

4.  Write clear and easily understandable comments, remembering that
many potential readers are not native speakers, let alone native
in "Standard" English.

5.  For advice on writing clearly, Zinsser is a good textbook on
writing to communicate.  Strunk & White is a concise collection of
concrete rules with examples of usage that help many to write more
clearly, and its table of contents serves as a somewhat Petersian
"Zen of Technical Writing".  (There may be better alternatives to
both for those purposes, but I don't know of any.)

We could probably get 1-4 into two and a half lines, by leaving out
the jokes and rationale.  5 would probably take a couple more lines.
Or we could just delete the whole thing, which is probably more
advisable than laying a burden of clarity and intelligibility we
ourselves could not bear on non-native and non-Standard speakers.

Regards,
Steve

Footnotes: 
[1]  I'm not sure why.  The OP to Python-Ideas was well-written.

[2]  Reading is easier partly because most of the world values
Standard[sic] (American) English or standard (British) English above
other dialects, which is clearly a holdover from "centering whiteness".
But also because many of Strunk & White's rules really do encourage
writing clearly without privileging any dialect (or even language -- I
use those rules effectively in writing Japanese, to the extent I can
write effective Japanese ;-).

[3]  Yes, Naoki, I'd say RFC English is conformant to Strunk & White,
especially in the important ways.  However, RFC English is further
constrained and by conventions like RFC 2119 "Key words for use in
RFCs to indicate requirement levels".  Much of the more complex
content is expressed in formal grammars and pseudo-code.  So RFC
English not really a fair test of whether Strunk & White would be
useful to programmers.  Unfortunately, there's no style guide I know
of for RFC authors we could cite here -- you learn by getting screamed
at on IETF lists. ;-)

[4]  Maybe "style" is a better word, though inaccurate and ambiguous
in this context.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[MRAB]

On 2020-07-02 22:17, Jeff Allen wrote:

On 01/07/2020 21:01, Ethan Furman wrote:

A not-great article, White Fears of Dispossession: Dreyer's English, 
The Elements of Style,and the Racial Mapping of English Discourse, here:


http://radicalteacher.library.pitt.edu/ojs/radicalteacher/issue/view/19/25 



Thanks for posting this. (What a lot of work you must've done to find 
it.) As a result I feel I have a much better understanding of the 
environment in which these thought processes (those displayed in the 
commit message) would be considered rational, even admirable. Food for 
thought.


I found the language difficult to understand. For example, "in the midst 
and post the election" instead of "during and after the election". And 
multiply-stacked nouns. And nouns used as verbs. Much like 
"management-speak". If you believe you have something important to say, 
then at least say it clearly.


E. B. White was born in New York -- I believe that's in the northern 
part of the United States, otherwise known as "The North" or the side 
that fought to end slavery.


E. B. White was educated at Cornell.

We should acknowledge that he famously showed an interest in web 
development and invented a sort of mouse. ;-)



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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Jeff Allen]

On 01/07/2020 21:01, Ethan Furman wrote:

A not-great article, White Fears of Dispossession: Dreyer's English, 
The Elements of Style,and the Racial Mapping of English Discourse, here:


http://radicalteacher.library.pitt.edu/ojs/radicalteacher/issue/view/19/25 



Thanks for posting this. (What a lot of work you must've done to find 
it.) As a result I feel I have a much better understanding of the 
environment in which these thought processes (those displayed in the 
commit message) would be considered rational, even admirable. Food for 
thought.


E. B. White was born in New York -- I believe that's in the northern 
part of the United States, otherwise known as "The North" or the side 
that fought to end slavery.


E. B. White was educated at Cornell.

We should acknowledge that he famously showed an interest in web 
development and invented a sort of mouse. ;-)



Jeff Allen

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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Ethan Furman]

On 06/29/2020 06:21 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:


It's not Strunk and White per se, it's the idea of enforcing "standard
English", where "standard" here means "talks like a American with an
Ivy league education".


I believe the issue is writing, not talking.


There's nothing wrong with being ignorant – we can't be experts in
everything, and your education probably didn't spend a lot of time
talking about the long history of language "standards" and the many
ways they've been used, intentionally, systematically, and violently
to enforce racist/classist/etc. policies.


You mean like whole languages dying out because the "educators" and governments 
would persecute, prosecute, and even execute those who spoke it?  Elements of Style is a 
tool, and unless there is text in it the supports or encourages such behavior, or its 
authors supported or encouraged such behavior, then equating it with such behavior is 
preposterous.


I'm not going to try to educate you on that history – it's completely
off-topic for this list, and you can do your own work if you care to.


E. B. White was born in New York -- I believe that's in the northern part of the United 
States, otherwise known as "The North" or the side that fought to end slavery.

E. B. White was educated at Cornell.

A morning spent searching was unable to find references to E. B. White being a 
racist, having racist writings, or supporting racism.  Any links I missed would 
be appreciated.

An article that has good things to say about the advice of Elements of Style:

  
https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/grammar-language-racist-racially-charged-angry-grammarian-20181214.html

And an excellent article here:

  https://www.jstor.org/stable/376368?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

talks about the built-in sexism in Elements of Style, but no commentary on 
racism (of course, the point of that article is about sexism).  The article is 
from 1979, so hopefully the newer editions are better on that count (my copy 
hasn't arrived yet).

A not-great article, White Fears of Dispossession: Dreyer's English, The 
Elements of Style,and the Racial Mapping of English Discourse, here:

  http://radicalteacher.library.pitt.edu/ojs/radicalteacher/issue/view/19/25

It start on page 22.  Its "proof" is in excerpts from other similar writings, 
but the excerpts from Elements of Style are only short phrases.

Again, any links to research would be appreciated.  I am happy to learn, but I 
require more than one person's statement that such a thing is so.  As an 
example, the above Enquirer article has plenty of examples proving its 
supposition.

-

I don't think there's much to be gained by discussing this any further; I, for 
one, would much rather discuss the technical details of cPython development.

--
~Ethan~
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Ethan Furman]

On 06/30/2020 07:07 AM, Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:16 PM Thomas Wouters  wrote:



Please report all CoC violations to the CoC WG.


Please don't. As far as I'm concerned, me and Thomas are fine. Also,
as I said, I don't like CoCs nor appealing to them.


This is a public list, and more people than just you and Thomas are involved.

--
~Ethan~
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Rhodri James]

On 30/06/2020 13:58, Thomas Wouters wrote:

I wasn't speaking for the PSF or the Steering Council,


I'm afraid as politicians around the world discover on a daily basis, it 
doesn't work that way.  Particularly on political matters such as this, 
you do speak as a Steering Council member and PSF board member unless 
you very explicitly say otherwise, and even then your comments will 
reflect on both organisations.  This is the sort of behaviour that gets 
local politicians suspended from their parties.



nor was my intent to
"silence or force out people guilty of thought-crime and holding the wrong
opinion".


Perhaps you should re-read what you wrote.  "Unfriendly" is an extremely 
polite term for the tone of it, and I for one felt threatened.


[Steven D'Aprano said:]

I think that Thomas' post violated the CoC:


Please report all CoC violations to the CoC WG.


Good point.  Duly done.

--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Giampaolo Rodola']

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:16 PM Thomas Wouters  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:36 PM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>>
>> It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected
>> to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the
>> entire PSF board.Giampaolo feared this:
>>
>> "It's gonna happen again and again, until everybody gets in line, shuts
>> up or leaves due to exhaustion."
>>
>> and Thomas replied:
>>
>> "I'm not sure how much more clear python-dev and the PSF could have been
>> that this is true."
>>
>> So is it true? Do the core devs and the PSF have a policy of
>> pushing divisive political changes to silence and force out of the
>> community people who are guilty of thought-crime and holding the wrong
>> opinion on political matters?
>
>
> I wasn't speaking for the PSF or the Steering Council, nor was my intent to 
> "silence or force out people guilty of thought-crime and holding the wrong 
> opinion".
>
>>
>>
>> I think that Thomas' post violated the CoC:
>
>
> Please report all CoC violations to the CoC WG.

Please don't. As far as I'm concerned, me and Thomas are fine. Also,
as I said, I don't like CoCs nor appealing to them.

-- 
Giampaolo - gmpy.dev
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[David Mertz]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 8:39 AM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected to
> the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the entire
> PSF board.
>

That seems silly. Of course Thomas doesn't speak for the Board here, and
nothing suggests he does. That doesn't mean the rest of the board
disagrees, but neither does it mean they agree. They can speak for
themselves.

In the very unlikely event that the PSF Board takes an official action in
relation to this stuff, it would be very clearly marked as such. Directors
are just people, y'know.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Thomas Wouters]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:36 PM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected
> to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the
> entire PSF board.Giampaolo feared this:
>
> "It's gonna happen again and again, until everybody gets in line, shuts
> up or leaves due to exhaustion."
>
> and Thomas replied:
>
> "I'm not sure how much more clear python-dev and the PSF could have been
> that this is true."
>
> So is it true? Do the core devs and the PSF have a policy of
> pushing divisive political changes to silence and force out of the
> community people who are guilty of thought-crime and holding the wrong
> opinion on political matters?
>

I wasn't speaking for the PSF or the Steering Council, nor was my intent to
"silence or force out people guilty of thought-crime and holding the wrong
opinion".


>
> I think that Thomas' post violated the CoC:
>

Please report all CoC violations to the CoC WG.


>
> * not open, considerate, or respectful;
>
> * dismissive of Giampaolo's efforts;
>
> * not respectful of differing viewpoints;
>
> * lacking empathy towards others with alternative perspectives.
>
> The CoC doesn't mention the word "tolerant" or "tolerance", but there
> was nothing of either in Thomas' post. And coming from a PSF Board
> member, I think that is extremely worrying.
>
>
> Steven
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:42:40PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 11:52:52 +0200
> > Thomas Wouters  wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad
> > > Python ever took any of your patches.
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > You know, I don't care (and few people probably care) what you think
> > personally of other core developers.  But that you aren't even able to
> > keep those thoughts for yourself and instead think it's ok to launch
> > vitriolic attacks publicly, doesn't reflect very well on you.
> >
> > Personally, I'm glad Giampaolo contributes to the project, as well as
> > to the community (psutil is invaluable).  And I think you should just
> > police yourself instead of attacking him personally.
> >
> > > We want to be more welcoming, not less --
> >
> > But do you *personally*? You certainly do not sound like you want to be
> > "more welcoming".  Your belliquous attitude doesn't support that.  You
> > sound like you have an axe to grind.
> >
> > If your stated intentions are contradicted by your own behaviour,
> > you're doing it wrong.
> >
> >
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-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
spread!
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Steven D'Aprano]

It needs to be pointed out that Thomas Wouters was recently re-elected 
to the PSF board. I think we need to know whether Thomas speaks for the 
entire PSF board.Giampaolo feared this:

"It's gonna happen again and again, until everybody gets in line, shuts
up or leaves due to exhaustion."

and Thomas replied:

"I'm not sure how much more clear python-dev and the PSF could have been
that this is true."

So is it true? Do the core devs and the PSF have a policy of 
pushing divisive political changes to silence and force out of the 
community people who are guilty of thought-crime and holding the wrong 
opinion on political matters?

I think that Thomas' post violated the CoC:

* not open, considerate, or respectful;

* dismissive of Giampaolo's efforts;

* not respectful of differing viewpoints;

* lacking empathy towards others with alternative perspectives.

The CoC doesn't mention the word "tolerant" or "tolerance", but there 
was nothing of either in Thomas' post. And coming from a PSF Board 
member, I think that is extremely worrying.


Steven



On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:42:40PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 11:52:52 +0200
> Thomas Wouters  wrote:
> > 
> > I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad
> > Python ever took any of your patches.
> 
> Really?
> 
> You know, I don't care (and few people probably care) what you think
> personally of other core developers.  But that you aren't even able to
> keep those thoughts for yourself and instead think it's ok to launch
> vitriolic attacks publicly, doesn't reflect very well on you.
> 
> Personally, I'm glad Giampaolo contributes to the project, as well as
> to the community (psutil is invaluable).  And I think you should just
> police yourself instead of attacking him personally.
> 
> > We want to be more welcoming, not less --
> 
> But do you *personally*? You certainly do not sound like you want to be
> "more welcoming".  Your belliquous attitude doesn't support that.  You
> sound like you have an axe to grind.
> 
> If your stated intentions are contradicted by your own behaviour,
> you're doing it wrong.
> 
> 
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Giampaolo Rodola']

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:53 AM Thomas Wouters  wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola'  wrote:
>>
>> This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been 
>> going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation 
>> of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on 
>> here. People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not 
>> gonna be the last occurrence of it. On the horizon we have other 
>> language-related controversies like "whitelist" / "blacklist", renaming 
>> "master" to "main" in GIT, and who knows what else (maybe "whitespace"? or 
>> @property?).
>
>
> I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while 
> objecting to the wording in a commit message.

They are two different things.
One thing is changing some words to make a concept more clear. I said
I agree with it.
Another thing is using that as an excuse to deliver a political
message. That I don't agree with.
I'm tired of it. I'm literally overwhelmed by it. I open Twitter and I
see politics. I open Facebook and I see politics. That's fine. But why
should I see politics also here? I don't know.

>> And every time that's gonna happen the motivation is gonna be about white 
>> supremacy/privilege/guilt etc. Because it's always about that, and we'll be 
>> having this discussion once again. On one hand Python gladly takes our 
>> patches and everything is smooth,
>
>
> I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad Python 
> ever took any of your patches. No contribution to Python outweighs the harm 
> you're doing by espousing and advocating for these views. This kind of 
> sentiment scares away a lot of valuable contributors -- I know this because 
> *they have told me* --

I can say exactly the same thing. There are different people in this
thread and other threads who publicly said they are uncomfortable with
this situation. They don't espouse or advocate for any view in
particular. And me neither, because complaining about X doesn't
necessarily mean wanting to push for Y. I don't want to push for X nor
Y. And I don't want to be put in a situation where I am forced to
advocate for X or Y, or be vilified if I don't agree with X as it
happens here. It's just not the right place because it's too close to
the personal sphere (work, etc.). Some texted me privately exactly as
they did with you, because they are afraid of repercussions in that
regard (work). Others posted anonymously for the same reason. Does
that seem normal, sane or "welcoming" to you? Do you think it's
helping anybody anywhere? It is not. It is not me who's doing this *in
the least*. I'm merely calling it out.

>> on the other hand it wants us to not only accept "this" and be quiet, but 
>> also to take a stand and be an ally in the battle against the vocabulary "or 
>> else". So what's the point of contributing if the emotional distress and the 
>> risk that comes with it are so high?
>
>
> This is exactly why we want you to stop, yes. You're causing a lot of 
> emotional distress in people, and putting people at risk. You're even causing 
> it in people *in your purported demographic*, like me, let alone the people 
> you're trying to disadvantage. Stop it.

I'm not putting anybody at risk except myself.

>> In the previous discussion preceding this one where one PSF member left 
>> because it all got so political, somebody posted anonymously (and gently) 
>> for fear of repercussions. The same fear has been expressed in this thread. 
>> In the other thread it has even been suggested that "being silent re. > cause>" == "being complicit". I mean, are you serious? I explicitly avoided 
>> to comment on that because I didn't even know where to begin to explain how 
>> profoundly wrong that is on so many different levels. How irrespectful it is 
>> to ask people who just want to contribute some code here to take precise 
>> political sides or be damned if they don't. How unfair it is to do that 
>> especially towards old-time contributors. And now I even have to hope some 
>> moderator will be reasonable enough not to mark my emails as "white 
>> suprematism" (LOL) and send them through. This is just ridiculous. I've 
>> never been pro-CoC, but even if I were, this is what the enforcement part of 
>> the CoC dictates:
>>
>> > https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/enforcement/
>> > Reports that are not made in good faith (such as "reverse sexism" or 
>> > "reverse racism") may receive no response.
>>
>> ...so even the CoC won't help. So this is why this problem is more profound 
>> than a simple commit message. It's gonna happen again and again, until 
>> everybody gets in line, shuts up or leaves due to exhaustion.
>
>
> I'm not sure how much more clear python-dev and the PSF could have been that 
> this is true. Your complaints of "racism against whites" here haven't gone 
> unheard, unfortunately. They reflect very badly on 

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Kyle Stanley]

I tend to keep out of these types of discussions because they have a
tendency to be rather polarizing, and when introduced in an unrelated
environment (such as python-ideas or python-dev), tend to do nothing other
than set people against each other. But, after the above message, I feel
obligated to respond. Also, keep in mind that I'm stating this as someone
who fully agreed with the change made (as mentioned earlier in the thread).

Thomas Wouters wrote:
> I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad
Python ever took any of your patches

Regardless of thoughts on the above matter, this is absolutely uncalled for
Thomas, especially coming from someone who has served on the PSF board and
was elected for the upcoming term. As someone who voted for you in the
recent election thinking you would represent the core development team
well, the above statement does make me question that to some degree. I hope
this situation is an outlier, and not indicative of how problems will be
addressed in the future.

I for one greatly appreciate the contributions by Giampaolo. Our CI would
be nowhere near where it is today without his help, not to mention the
countless refleaks, bug fixes, and expertise provided on a vast number of
issues. I could go on, but quite frankly it's not especially relevant,
because I'd say the same for any other member of the core team or active
contributor.

I really can't imagine in any way how this statement isn't a clear
violation of the CoC (https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/).

> *Acknowledging time and effort*. We're respectful of the volunteer
efforts that permeate the Python community. We're thoughtful when
addressing the efforts of others, keeping in mind that often times the
labor was completed simply for the good of the community.

The statement completely disregards the time and effort put into
Giampaolo's contributions to Python.

> Showing empathy towards other community members. We're attentive in our
communications, whether in person or online, and *we're tactful when
approaching differing views*.

> *Being respectful.* We're respectful of others, their positions, their
skills, their commitments, and their efforts.

The statement is clearly not tactful or respectful of his differing
viewpoint.

> I'm not sure how much more clear python-dev and the PSF could have been
that this is true. Your complaints of "racism against whites" here haven't
gone unheard, unfortunately. They reflect very badly on you. They are
incredibly harmful to many python-dev members and the Python community as a
whole, and they reflect very badly on all of us.

I can see how the "racism against whites" argument could come across as
being non-inclusive towards others, particularly because these arguments
are often put forth by white supremacists for ill-intended purposes.
However, telling someone who has devoted countless hours towards
contributing to Python that "I'm certainly not glad Python ever took any of
your patches" is pretty much the exact opposite of a tactful way to
approach this issue. Even assuming that Giampolo's views are in violation
of the CoC (which I'm not saying they are or aren't), the way to handle it
is most certainly not also by violating the CoC against him.

If those views reflect badly on us, I think it reflects even worse on us
that we have to resort to telling people that their contributions are not
valued because they have a different point of view, even if that view is
offensive to others. Are we not capable of having this discussion in a
civil manner? I realize that this is a topic that is dear to many people
(including myself, as someone who is politically progressive), but that
does not make this sort of exchange acceptable.



On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:59 AM Thomas Wouters  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' 
> wrote:
>
>> This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been
>> going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation
>> of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on
>> here. People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not
>> gonna be the last occurrence of it. On the horizon we have other
>> language-related controversies like "whitelist" / "blacklist", renaming
>> "master" to "main" in GIT, and who knows what else (maybe "whitespace"? or
>> @property?).
>>
>
> I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while
> objecting to the wording in a commit message. Especially considering the
> commit message isn't nearly as visible as the places that people have
> actually been fixing things like master/slave.
>
>
>> And every time that's gonna happen the motivation is gonna be about white
>> supremacy/privilege/guilt etc. Because it's always about that, and we'll be
>> having this discussion once again. On one hand Python gladly takes our
>> patches and everything is smooth,
>>
>
> I'm not sure who 

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Edwin Zimmerman]

On 6/30/2020 5:52 AM, Thomas Wouters wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola'  > wrote:
>
> This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been 
> going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation 
> of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on here. 
> People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not gonna be 
> the last occurrence of it. On the horizon we have other language-related 
> controversies like "whitelist" / "blacklist", renaming "master" to "main" in 
> GIT, and who knows what else (maybe "whitespace"? or @property?).
>
>
> I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while 
> objecting to the wording in a commit message. Especially considering the 
> commit message isn't nearly as visible as the places that people have 
> actually been fixing things like master/slave.
>  
>
> And every time that's gonna happen the motivation is gonna be about white 
> supremacy/privilege/guilt etc. Because it's always about that, and we'll be 
> having this discussion once again. On one hand Python gladly takes our 
> patches and everything is smooth,
>
>
> I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad Python 
> ever took any of your patches. No contribution to Python outweighs the harm 
> you're doing by espousing and advocating for these views. This kind of 
> sentiment scares away a lot of valuable contributors -- I know this because 
> *they have told me* -- and that you're doing it while arguing against a 
> change to a different (unintentional but still harmful) gatekeeping mechanism 
> just makes it so much worse.
Note to self:  It's kind of hard to convince the opposition to take an honest 
look at my viewpoint when I start by attacking them personally.

To everyone else:  I saw this flame war coming the minute I read the original 
post.  Unfortunately, it seems no longer possible to discuss this subject in 
any reasonable way.  Everyone seems to have forgotten that you can attack an 
idea without attacking the person presenting it.  Moderators, please, can this 
thread just be stopped?

--Edwin
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 11:52:52 +0200
Thomas Wouters  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad
> Python ever took any of your patches.

Really?

You know, I don't care (and few people probably care) what you think
personally of other core developers.  But that you aren't even able to
keep those thoughts for yourself and instead think it's ok to launch
vitriolic attacks publicly, doesn't reflect very well on you.

Personally, I'm glad Giampaolo contributes to the project, as well as
to the community (psutil is invaluable).  And I think you should just
police yourself instead of attacking him personally.

> We want to be more welcoming, not less --

But do you *personally*? You certainly do not sound like you want to be
"more welcoming".  Your belliquous attitude doesn't support that.  You
sound like you have an axe to grind.

If your stated intentions are contradicted by your own behaviour,
you're doing it wrong.


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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Rhodri James]

On 30/06/2020 10:52, Thomas Wouters wrote:

I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while
objecting to the wording in a commit message. Especially considering the
commit message isn't nearly as visible as the places that people have
actually been fixing things like master/slave.


I'm sorry, I was a little deafened by the irony that it's only wrong to 
complain about changes you agree with.


The commit was over-hasty, but that's not a crime.  It improves matters 
for those who find the idea of writing formal English daunting, but at 
the expense of those who find the idea of filling a blank box with words 
terrifying.  A little more thought could have catered for both, but it's 
not the end of the world.  With a sufficient supply of round tuits I can 
always submit a PR myself.


The commit message is a political message that flatly does not belong in 
the repository.


Do you see the difference?

I really wish you hadn't brought up the master/slave debacle again.  I 
may feel obliged to submit PRs to restore the accepted usage because, 
and I can't believe I have to keep saying this, *creating taboos only 
ever makes things worse.*


--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Thomas Wouters]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' 
wrote:

> This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been
> going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation
> of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on
> here. People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not
> gonna be the last occurrence of it. On the horizon we have other
> language-related controversies like "whitelist" / "blacklist", renaming
> "master" to "main" in GIT, and who knows what else (maybe "whitespace"? or
> @property?).
>

I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while
objecting to the wording in a commit message. Especially considering the
commit message isn't nearly as visible as the places that people have
actually been fixing things like master/slave.


> And every time that's gonna happen the motivation is gonna be about white
> supremacy/privilege/guilt etc. Because it's always about that, and we'll be
> having this discussion once again. On one hand Python gladly takes our
> patches and everything is smooth,
>

I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad
Python ever took any of your patches. No contribution to Python outweighs
the harm you're doing by espousing and advocating for these views. This
kind of sentiment scares away a lot of valuable contributors -- I know this
because *they have told me* -- and that you're doing it while arguing
against a change to a different (unintentional but still harmful)
gatekeeping mechanism just makes it so much worse.


> on the other hand it wants us to not only accept "this" and be quiet, but
> also to take a stand and be an ally in the battle against the vocabulary
> "or else". So what's the point of contributing if the emotional distress
> and the risk that comes with it are so high?
>

This is exactly why we want you to stop, yes. You're causing a lot of
emotional distress in people, and putting people at risk. You're even
causing it in people *in your purported demographic*, like me, let alone
the people you're trying to disadvantage. Stop it.


> In the previous discussion preceding this one where one PSF member left
> because it all got so political, somebody posted anonymously (and gently)
> for fear of repercussions. The same fear has been expressed in this thread.
> In the other thread it has even been suggested that "being silent re.  cause>" == "being complicit". I mean, are you serious? I explicitly avoided
> to comment on that because I didn't even know where to begin to explain how
> profoundly wrong that is on so many different levels. How irrespectful it
> is to ask people who just want to contribute some code here to take precise
> political sides or be damned if they don't. How unfair it is to do that
> especially towards old-time contributors. And now I even have to hope some
> moderator will be reasonable enough not to mark my emails as "white
> suprematism" (LOL) and send them through. This is just ridiculous. I've
> never been pro-CoC, but even if I were, this is what the enforcement part
> of the CoC dictates:
>
> > https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/enforcement/
> > Reports that are not made in good faith (such as "reverse sexism" or
> "reverse racism") may receive no response.
>
> ...so even the CoC won't help. So this is why this problem is more
> profound than a simple commit message. It's gonna happen again and again,
> until everybody gets in line, shuts up or leaves due to exhaustion.
>

I'm not sure how much more clear python-dev and the PSF could have been
that this is true. Your complaints of "racism against whites" here haven't
gone unheard, unfortunately. They reflect very badly on you. They are
incredibly harmful to many python-dev members and the Python community as a
whole, and they reflect very badly on all of us. The option you should take
is to learn how wrong you are in this. There are very, very many resources
online explaining why reverse racism isn't a thing, *even if* someone was
racist against you for being white (rather than judging you on your words
or actions, as I'm doing here). Nobody here is being racist against (cis,
het, etc) white males, even though we want to be *less* racist (and sexist,
ablist, etc.) against others. We want to be more welcoming, not less --
but not to people who make the community less welcoming. If you can't
accept this, please leave the community.



>
>
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:28, David Mertz  wrote:
>
>> Can we simply revise the commit message to something neutral like
>> "Removed specific reference to Strunk and White in favor of generic urge
>> for language clarity."
>>
>> That's all the change actually was; there's no need for the other debate
>> or broad political background.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:28 PM Rhodri James 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
>>> > Threads like these are meaningless, does not 

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Rhodri James]

On 29/06/2020 21:40, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

IMHO, the fact that the "Strunk & White standard" is not known by
everybody (it's certainly not by me) was enough of a reason to remove
that wording and replace it with a clearer phrasing.


Or perhaps to amplify on why something like S is a good guide (and not 
a standard) in how to write formal English?  If you aren't interested in 
the nuts and bolts of the English language there's no reason for you to 
know of Strunk and White, the Chicago Manual of Style or any of a number 
of other similar books on the subject.  They are all useful to someone 
who intends to write much, though.


--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Giampaolo Rodola']

This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been
going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation
of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on
here. People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not
gonna be the last occurrence of it. On the horizon we have other
language-related controversies like "whitelist" / "blacklist", renaming
"master" to "main" in GIT, and who knows what else (maybe "whitespace"? or
@property?). And every time that's gonna happen the motivation is gonna be
about white supremacy/privilege/guilt etc. Because it's always about that,
and we'll be having this discussion once again. On one hand Python gladly
takes our patches and everything is smooth, on the other hand it wants us
to not only accept "this" and be quiet, but also to take a stand and be an
ally in the battle against the vocabulary "or else". So what's the point of
contributing if the emotional distress and the risk that comes with it are
so high? In the previous discussion preceding this one where one PSF member
left because it all got so political, somebody posted anonymously (and
gently) for fear of repercussions. The same fear has been expressed in this
thread. In the other thread it has even been suggested that "being silent
re. " == "being complicit". I mean, are you serious? I
explicitly avoided to comment on that because I didn't even know where to
begin to explain how profoundly wrong that is on so many different levels.
How irrespectful it is to ask people who just want to contribute some code
here to take precise political sides or be damned if they don't. How unfair
it is to do that especially towards old-time contributors. And now I even
have to hope some moderator will be reasonable enough not to mark my emails
as "white suprematism" (LOL) and send them through. This is just
ridiculous. I've never been pro-CoC, but even if I were, this is what the
enforcement part of the CoC dictates:

> https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/enforcement/
> Reports that are not made in good faith (such as "reverse sexism" or
"reverse racism") may receive no response.

...so even the CoC won't help. So this is why this problem is more profound
than a simple commit message. It's gonna happen again and again, until
everybody gets in line, shuts up or leaves due to exhaustion.


On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:28, David Mertz  wrote:

> Can we simply revise the commit message to something neutral like "Removed
> specific reference to Strunk and White in favor of generic urge for
> language clarity."
>
> That's all the change actually was; there's no need for the other debate
> or broad political background.
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:28 PM Rhodri James  wrote:
>
>> On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
>> > Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning
>> > value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.
>>
>> I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more.  Since the PSF has seen fit to make
>> a political statement (re Black Lives Matter, and I don't particularly
>> disagree with either the statement or the choice of making it), threads
>> like these are both inevitable and necessary.  When such statements are
>> made, it is generally a good idea to be reasonably sure that the
>> community one is representing is broadly OK with that statement.  (I
>> speak in vague terms because you will never get 100% agreement from
>> anyone on anything!)
>>
>> The commit message that sparked this all was, quite unnecessarily, a
>> political statement.  The threads have demonstrated that it is not even
>> vaguely universally accepted, so it being in the PEPs repository (not
>> just a PR, it's there, public, and effectively representing you and me)
>> is a problem.  That it's still there now is pretty unacceptable in my
>> book.
>>
>> --
>> Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
>> ___
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>
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700
Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
> 
> You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here.

Ah... How about you drop the condescending tone, Nathaniel?
You certainly can make your point without attacking your fellow
contributors.

> But using a thread on
> python-dev to make clueless speculations like this is *incredibly*
> inappropriate and offensive.

Yawn.

Regards

Antoine.

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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
compileralchemy  | blog

github 
Mauritius


On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:34 PM Rhodri James  wrote:

> On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> > Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning
> > value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.
>
> I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more.  Since the PSF has seen fit to make
> a political statement (re Black Lives Matter, and I don't particularly
> disagree with either the statement or the choice of making it), threads
> like these are both inevitable and necessary.
>

Good and nice but not on python-dev. The PSF is already taking
appropriate  steps on Twitter and relevant mediums. And in case
of correction of individuals i feel it better be left in the hands of
moderators. I prefer to maintain the purity of threads rather than
seeing members leave or stay aloof after a bitter experience.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 12:43:18 +0100
Rhodri James  wrote:
> On 29/06/2020 11:31, Steve Holden wrote:
> > If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these
> > waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find
> > distasteful or offensive. I do not necessarily require my opinions to be
> > thought reasonable, even by other reasonable people.  
> 
> I don't think you are being insensitive, I too found that commit message 
> offensive.  Personally I think equating standardised English -- 
> specifically Strunk and White -- with racist supremacy is itself a 
> racist remark which should not have been made.

>From the outside, this does seem like a reasonable position.

Also, more generally, while I'm sure there are elaborate sociohistorical
arguments to be made about the influence of prejudice (for example
gendered or racist) on language, a Python commit message is not the
place to elaborate such a theory.  If this is important to you, perhaps
one direction is to propose your edits to the corresponding Wikipedia
page (which doesn't seem to list such criticism currently):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style

IMHO, the fact that the "Strunk & White standard" is not known by
everybody (it's certainly not by me) was enough of a reason to remove
that wording and replace it with a clearer phrasing.  

Regards

Antoine.

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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[David Mertz]

Can we simply revise the commit message to something neutral like "Removed
specific reference to Strunk and White in favor of generic urge for
language clarity."

That's all the change actually was; there's no need for the other debate or
broad political background.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:28 PM Rhodri James  wrote:

> On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> > Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning
> > value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.
>
> I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more.  Since the PSF has seen fit to make
> a political statement (re Black Lives Matter, and I don't particularly
> disagree with either the statement or the choice of making it), threads
> like these are both inevitable and necessary.  When such statements are
> made, it is generally a good idea to be reasonably sure that the
> community one is representing is broadly OK with that statement.  (I
> speak in vague terms because you will never get 100% agreement from
> anyone on anything!)
>
> The commit message that sparked this all was, quite unnecessarily, a
> political statement.  The threads have demonstrated that it is not even
> vaguely universally accepted, so it being in the PEPs repository (not
> just a PR, it's there, public, and effectively representing you and me)
> is a problem.  That it's still there now is pretty unacceptable in my book.
>
> --
> Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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-- 
The dead increasingly dominate and strangle both the living and the
not-yet born.  Vampiric capital and undead corporate persons abuse
the lives and control the thoughts of homo faber. Ideas, once born,
become abortifacients against new conceptions.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

To bring this thread back to encouraging diversity, I must point out
that diverse English dialects are not all there is to diversity, folks.

Nathaniel Smith writes:

 > In particular, it emphasizes that the new text is accomplishing
 > "the same goal", "maintaining the original intent",

That displays a great misunderstanding of that goal and intent in my
opinion.  The original intent clearly includes providing *concrete*
guidelines, because no student of Strunk & White would use a reference
to Strunk & White if the phrase "clear and easily understood" would do.

Strunk & White is not a grammar of "Standard" English.  It is a Zen-
of-Python-like collection of precepts, many of which inform my own
writing in Japanese (!!) as well as in English, and my Japanese and
Chinese students have expressed appreciation for them.  While the
quirkiness of Strunk & White appeals to me personally, replacing it
with an explicit set of guidelines directly modeled on the Zen or an
alternative reference would serve the purpose as well.

But I do not know of a good substitute for this purpose.  I don't
think David's suggestion of Zinsser would serve so well.  It is a
textbook and quite discursive[1], while the table of contents of
Strunk & White is quite Zen-like, and little more than twice as long
as the Zen.

>From the lack of any mention of this aspect of Strunk & White, it's
clear that the commit was made with little or no consideration for the
many developers, current and potential, whose native language is *not*
English, nor for some neuro-atypical programmers, for whom generalities
like "be clear" may be deterring and explicit rules comforting.  That
doesn't mean simple removal of that reference was the wrong thing to
do, but it does mean that removing it without replacement needs more
justification than "it's a 'relic of white supremacy'".

I agree that the goal of encouraging diversity among community members
justifies substantial cost, which is repaid in many ways.  It is
certainly true that some of the precepts of Strunk & White are simple
grammar rules that are specific to Standard English, and in that sense
center whiteness.  But the loss to some, perhaps many, developers from
failing to provide *any* concrete guidelines may be large.  That
should have been considered before committing, and in my opinion,
replacement guidelines or an alternative reference included.  This
loss was mentioned several times in the discussion on Python Ideas --
and ignored.

I sure hope it will be considered now.

Steve


Footnotes: 
[1]  And probably suffers from "centering whiteness," though perhaps
not to the degree that Strunk & White does.  It's been a while since
I've looked at Zinsser.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Rhodri James]

On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:

Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning
value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.


I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more.  Since the PSF has seen fit to make 
a political statement (re Black Lives Matter, and I don't particularly 
disagree with either the statement or the choice of making it), threads 
like these are both inevitable and necessary.  When such statements are 
made, it is generally a good idea to be reasonably sure that the 
community one is representing is broadly OK with that statement.  (I 
speak in vague terms because you will never get 100% agreement from 
anyone on anything!)


The commit message that sparked this all was, quite unnecessarily, a 
political statement.  The threads have demonstrated that it is not even 
vaguely universally accepted, so it being in the PEPs repository (not 
just a PR, it's there, public, and effectively representing you and me) 
is a problem.  That it's still there now is pretty unacceptable in my book.


--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[C. Titus Brown via Python-Dev]

Hi all,

as a moderator of python-ideas, I’ve asked postmaster to place python-ideas 
into emergency moderation. (I do not have the tools to do so myself.) I’m 
willing to review messages individually as needed.

best,
—titus

> On Jun 29, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer  
> wrote:
> 
> Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning
> value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.
> 
> It opens the gap for people who are not concerned about development
> jump in the game shifting the focus away while nurturing a culture of thrash
> I mean you tend to ignore threads from python-dev and python-ideas which 
> is not probably why you subscribed in the first place
> 
> This is not the first time i am saying that you can fly around the world on 
> official
> Python mailing lists. But it's regrettable that it's the first time i am 
> seeing people
> telling that they should educate others and things like that. It can be based 
> on the
> argument and circle around it but personal attacks are off limit
> 
> If this was a Github issue, i don't think you list moderators would have 
> dragged it
> around that much. Worst case scenario, someone would have been pinged and 
> the issue taken care of. A PR or closing and you are done.
> 
> I raised the issue of closing a mail thread before and the impractical nature 
> of 
> it was discussed but maybe warnings and continued posting after the warning
> results in ban can be enforced
> 
> And it's annoying that it got dragged to two mailing lists. I respect Python 
> people
> and i am always eager to follow some C code discussions, deprecating this C 
> API
> etc. It's a new world for me.
> 
> Maybe active list members should sign a convention or a vetting process can 
> be setup
> before we can discuss it on the lists. Not ideal but might be useful.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> compileralchemy | blog 
> github
> Mauritius
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 8:11 PM David Mertz  wrote:
> The commit message is simply silly. It introduces numerous contentious and 
> false claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with the small wording 
> change. It misunderstands how language, culture, history, and indeed white 
> supremacism, work.
> 
> I would recommend amending the commit message.
> 
> The underlying change itself is reasonable, and to my mind a small 
> improvement. There was unnecessary specificity in using Strunk and White as 
> reference, and not, say, William Zinsser's _On Writing Well_, which is almost 
> as well known. In the concrete, it would be exceedingly rare for these to 
> provide conflicting advice on a specific code comment.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:34 AM Richard Damon  
> wrote:
> On 6/29/20 6:22 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
> > and describes the
> > old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the
> > problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone
> > intentionally keeping it there. 
> 
> I would say that say that I have seen the term "relic" being used as a
> 'weaponized' word to imply that the old thing WAS there intentionally as
> a repressive measure. I am not saying that this usage was intended to be
> used that way, but just as the old wording was taken as offensive to
> some due to implication, I can see that message as offensive to others
> due to implication, all because some people are easy to offend.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Damon
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> 
> 
> -- 
> The dead increasingly dominate and strangle both the living and the 
> not-yet born.  Vampiric capital and undead corporate persons abuse 
> the lives and control the thoughts of homo faber. Ideas, once born, 
> become abortifacients against new conceptions.
> ___
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning
value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.

It opens the gap for people who are not concerned about development
jump in the game shifting the focus away while nurturing a culture of thrash
I mean you tend to ignore threads from python-dev and python-ideas which
is not probably why you subscribed in the first place

This is not the first time i am saying that you can fly around the world on
official
Python mailing lists. But it's regrettable that it's the first time i am
seeing people
telling that they should educate others and things like that. It can be
based on the
argument and circle around it but personal attacks are off limit

If this was a Github issue, i don't think you list moderators would have
dragged it
around that much. Worst case scenario, someone would have been pinged and
the issue taken care of. A PR or closing and you are done.

I raised the issue of closing a mail thread before and the impractical
nature of
it was discussed but maybe warnings and continued posting after the warning
results in ban can be enforced

And it's annoying that it got dragged to two mailing lists. I respect
Python people
and i am always eager to follow some C code discussions, deprecating this C
API
etc. It's a new world for me.

Maybe active list members should sign a convention or a vetting process can
be setup
before we can discuss it on the lists. Not ideal but might be useful.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
compileralchemy  | blog

github 
Mauritius


On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 8:11 PM David Mertz  wrote:

> The commit message is simply silly. It introduces numerous contentious and
> false claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with the small wording
> change. It misunderstands how language, culture, history, and indeed white
> supremacism, work.
>
> I would recommend amending the commit message.
>
> The underlying change itself is reasonable, and to my mind a small
> improvement. There was unnecessary specificity in using Strunk and White as
> reference, and not, say, William Zinsser's _On Writing Well_, which is
> almost as well known. In the concrete, it would be exceedingly rare for
> these to provide conflicting advice on a specific code comment.
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:34 AM Richard Damon 
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/29/20 6:22 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
>> > and describes the
>> > old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the
>> > problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone
>> > intentionally keeping it there.
>>
>> I would say that say that I have seen the term "relic" being used as a
>> 'weaponized' word to imply that the old thing WAS there intentionally as
>> a repressive measure. I am not saying that this usage was intended to be
>> used that way, but just as the old wording was taken as offensive to
>> some due to implication, I can see that message as offensive to others
>> due to implication, all because some people are easy to offend.
>>
>> --
>> Richard Damon
>> ___
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>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
>
> --
> The dead increasingly dominate and strangle both the living and the
> not-yet born.  Vampiric capital and undead corporate persons abuse
> the lives and control the thoughts of homo faber. Ideas, once born,
> become abortifacients against new conceptions.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[David Mertz]

The commit message is simply silly. It introduces numerous contentious and
false claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with the small wording
change. It misunderstands how language, culture, history, and indeed white
supremacism, work.

I would recommend amending the commit message.

The underlying change itself is reasonable, and to my mind a small
improvement. There was unnecessary specificity in using Strunk and White as
reference, and not, say, William Zinsser's _On Writing Well_, which is
almost as well known. In the concrete, it would be exceedingly rare for
these to provide conflicting advice on a specific code comment.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:34 AM Richard Damon 
wrote:

> On 6/29/20 6:22 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
> > and describes the
> > old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the
> > problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone
> > intentionally keeping it there.
>
> I would say that say that I have seen the term "relic" being used as a
> 'weaponized' word to imply that the old thing WAS there intentionally as
> a repressive measure. I am not saying that this usage was intended to be
> used that way, but just as the old wording was taken as offensive to
> some due to implication, I can see that message as offensive to others
> due to implication, all because some people are easy to offend.
>
> --
> Richard Damon
> ___
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> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>


-- 
The dead increasingly dominate and strangle both the living and the
not-yet born.  Vampiric capital and undead corporate persons abuse
the lives and control the thoughts of homo faber. Ideas, once born,
become abortifacients against new conceptions.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Keara Berlin]

Hi all, I didn't mean for there to be significant differences between what
I posted here versus in the commit message. Sorry for any confusion around
that! Thank you for putting them both in one place here - that is helpful.

Take care,
Keara


On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 16:12 Paul Sokolovsky  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Shouldn't such feedback be also cross-posted to the python-dev mailing
> list? Also note the original pull request,
> https://github.com/python/peps/pull/1470, and differences of what was
> written in the pull request description and what went in the commit
> message.
>
>
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:10:14 +0200
> "Giampaolo Rodola'"  wrote:
>
> > From:
> >
> https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4
> >
> > > Instead of requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White
> > > Standard
> > English, require instead that English-language comments be clear and
> > easily understandable by other English speakers. This accomplishes
> > the same goal without upholding relics of white supremacy. Many
> > native English speakers do not use Standard English as their native
> > dialect, so requiring conformation to Standard English centers
> > whiteness in an inappropriate and unnecessary way, and can alienate
> > and put up barriers for people of color and those whose native
> > dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a simple
> > way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of the
> > requirement.
> >
> > This has nothing to do with making the wording "clear and
> > understandable" (I agree on that). It's about, once again, bringing
> > race-based politics into Python, and spreading hate towards a
> > specific group of people: whites. Whether you're aware of it or not,
> > there is a term for this: it's racism. I want to remind everyone that
> > most of us here simply want to contribute code. We do it for free,
> > and don't want to be involved in "this", because frankly it's
> > disgusting. Doing something out of passion and for free, and at the
> > same time seeing these sorts of things happening on a regular basis,
> > looks and feels like an insult, and will only lead to people leaving
> > this place.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:27 PM Keara Berlin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all, this is a very small change, but I thought I would field it
> > > here to see if anyone has suggestions or ideas. Instead of
> > > requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White Standard
> > > English, PEP-8 should require instead that English-language
> > > comments be clear and easily understandable by other English
> > > speakers. This accomplishes the same goal without alienating or
> > > putting up barriers for people (especially people of color) whose
> > > native dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a
> > > simple way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of
> > > the requirement. This change may even make the requirement more
> > > clear to people who are not familiar with Strunk & White, since for
> > > programmers, the main relevant aspect of that standard is "be clear
> > > and concise;" simply saying that instead of referencing Strunk &
> > > White may communicate this more effectively. Here is the current
> > > line in PEP-8: "When writing English, follow Strunk and White."
> > > I propose changing this line to "When writing English, ensure that
> > > your comments are clear and easily understandable to other English
> > > speakers." ___
> > > Python-ideas mailing list -- python-id...@python.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/
> > > Message archived at
> > >
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/AE2M7KOIQR37K3XSQW7FSV5KO4LMYHWX/
> > > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Giampaolo - gmpy.dev 
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Paul  mailto:pmis...@gmail.com
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Giampaolo Rodola']

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden  wrote:
> > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the
> change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the
> documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly
> regrettable, since it carries with it the implication that the Python
> developer community has somehow been wilfully sanctioning "relics of white
> supremacy" up until the change was made.
> >
> > There certainly is a place in tech for politics, as I have argued many
> times, and I am sure nobody wishes to continue to use language that might
> be offensive to readers. But I would suggest that the politics can safely
> be omitted from commit messages, since they can only properly be fully
> addressed in the conversation about the PR in advance. The wording of the
> commit message has the appearance (probably specious) of wanting to rub
> former misdeeds in the face of a largely innocent community, and that is
> the principal reason I found it distasteful and unnecessary.
>
> I just re-read the commit message, and I think you're being
> oversensitive and imagining things that aren't there. The actual
> commit message is written in a straightforward and factual way, and
> spends special effort on *absolving* the community of this kind of
> guilt.
>

"The community" has nothing to be absolved of, "Strunk & White" has nothing
to do with white supremacy and there is no guilt. If you feel guilty
because you're white then that's your problem. I don't feel guilty for
being white, the same way a black person should not feel guilty for being
black. And I have literally ZERO excuses to make to you or anybody else in
here because I'm white. Assuming guilt based on the color of your skin and
constantly attacking that specific group because of that is racist. It's
that simple. I find it astonishing how some people here don't seem to
realize that (or pretend not to).

And what's the goal anyway? Make us all feel guilty, create yet another
heated discussion, widen divisions, wait for the occasional folks who dare
to speak up against this vitriol and kick them out? And then what? What is
the plan here exactly? Don't you folks realize this is a technical forum?
Don't you understand how inappropriate it is to constantly bring up these
kinds of messages up here, and force people to either witness them silently
for fear of repercussions, or to engage in the discussion and risk paying
the consequences in terms of work / hiring / career / status / reputation
etc.? Because that's what happens, and we all know it. This is a very
public forum and we can all be traced back to here. There are professionals
here, people who go to conferences and/or make a living out of Python, who
pay the rent and support their family with it, and that don't want to be
put in this position.

It does not scale. It will never scale. Because whether we like it or not
we have to coexist together in this virtual space, including with people we
don't like. And this is why it is such a good idea to leave politics out of
the door and only stay focused on Python. We will still have different
opinions and occasional clashes, but as long as they are technical they
will be genuine, prolific and everything will be fine as it was before
"this" started (I've been reading this list for 12 years now). Discussing
politics, on the other hand, will only keep bringing conflict over and over
again. There's tons of proof of this already, and I can't envision a
different outcome in the long run. Because most of us are not OK with being
put against a wall and being blamed for "supremacy", "guilt", "privilege"
or whatever term you have in your jargon. I certainly am not. Furthermore,
that jargon makes no sense outside of the US and it's just ridiculous. I'm
European, am split between living here and in Asia, and I can guarantee you
that much.

Please, stop this.

-
Giampaolo - gmpy.dev 
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Rhodri James]

On 29/06/2020 15:02, Paul Sokolovsky wrote:

Hello,

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700
Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here.

[snippety snip]


I'm not going to try to educate you


Dude, you totally aren't going to. So please leave your supremacist,
center-of-the-world patronizing tone behind. Thank you.


OK guys, enough.  Paul, you were trying to be good here, but your 
previous comment was flamebait.  Nathaniel, that was exceptionally 
patronising, and I do somewhat take offense.  Both of you know better, 
now please behave like it.


(Yes, I'm allowed to get offended.  I'm half Welsh, growing up on the 
English side of the border with an obviously Welsh name.  I know all 
about language and racism, thank you very much.)


--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Jim F.Hilliard]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:21 PM Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

>
> It's not Strunk and White per se, it's the idea of enforcing "standard
> English", where "standard" here means "talks like a American with an
> Ivy league education".
>
You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here.
>

I definitely am, hence why I asked the question in the first place.

As it is currently written it isn't clearly understandable to non-US based
people. I just wish that the original email or the commit message did a
better job in justifying this for the rest of us.

But let's let this thread die here.
>

+1
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Paul Sokolovsky]

Hello,

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700
Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 5:04 AM Paul Sokolovsky 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300
> > "Jim F.Hilliard"  wrote:
> >  
> > > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is
> > > Strunk & White connected with white supremacy?  
> >
> > I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the
> > word "white".  
> 
> It's not Strunk and White per se, it's the idea of enforcing "standard
> English", where "standard" here means "talks like a American with an
> Ivy league education".

Someone might wonder why 2 US American people (the author of the commit
message and yourself), in the wake of events happening in that country,
take so much effort to untangle the situation with English usage for
people for whom English is not native. But not me. Events happen (in
the whole world, not just a particular country), and in general I
consider having opinions is quite normal. And thanks for yours.

> You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here.
> There's nothing wrong with being ignorant – we can't be experts in
> everything, and your education probably didn't spend a lot of time
> talking about the long history of language "standards" and the many
> ways they've been used, intentionally, systematically, and violently
> to enforce racist/classist/etc. policies. But using a thread on
> python-dev to make clueless speculations like this is *incredibly*
> inappropriate and offensive.
> 
> I'm not going to try to educate you

Dude, you totally aren't going to. So please leave your supremacist,
center-of-the-world patronizing tone behind. Thank you. 

> -- 
> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org



-- 
Best regards,
 Paul  mailto:pmis...@gmail.com
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Nathaniel Smith]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 5:04 AM Paul Sokolovsky  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300
> "Jim F.Hilliard"  wrote:
>
> > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk &
> > White connected with white supremacy?
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the word
> "white".

It's not Strunk and White per se, it's the idea of enforcing "standard
English", where "standard" here means "talks like a American with an
Ivy league education".

You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here.
There's nothing wrong with being ignorant – we can't be experts in
everything, and your education probably didn't spend a lot of time
talking about the long history of language "standards" and the many
ways they've been used, intentionally, systematically, and violently
to enforce racist/classist/etc. policies. But using a thread on
python-dev to make clueless speculations like this is *incredibly*
inappropriate and offensive.

I'm not going to try to educate you on that history – it's completely
off-topic for this list, and you can do your own work if you care to.
But let's let this thread die here.

-n

-- 
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Jim F.Hilliard]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:50 PM Paul Sokolovsky  wrote:

>
> I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the word
> "white".
>
>
I would be *very* surprised. This seems very foreign to me as a European.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Paul Sokolovsky]

Hello,

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300
"Jim F.Hilliard"  wrote:

> I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk &
> White connected with white supremacy?

I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the word
"white".

> 
> Scanning through this thread, its wikipedia page and doing quick
> google search, I wasn't able to find something tangible.
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Jim Fasarakis Hilliard



-- 
Best regards,
 Paul  mailto:pmis...@gmail.com
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Richard Damon]

On 6/29/20 7:35 AM, Jim F.Hilliard wrote:
> I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk &
> White connected with white supremacy?
>
> Scanning through this thread, its wikipedia page and doing quick
> google search, I wasn't able to find something tangible. 
>
>
> Best Regards,
> *
> *
> Jim Fasarakis Hilliard

A somewhat flippant answer (hope I don't get in trouble for it) is
because it defines the 'proper' use of English to be what some ancient
'White Guys' said it was as opposed to how some other 'Non-White' guys
use it, and those 'White Guys' were, at least in part, the people the
white supremacy came from, i.e., guilt by association.

-- 
Richard Damon
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Rhodri James]

On 29/06/2020 11:31, Steve Holden wrote:

If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these
waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find
distasteful or offensive. I do not necessarily require my opinions to be
thought reasonable, even by other reasonable people.


I don't think you are being insensitive, I too found that commit message 
offensive.  Personally I think equating standardised English -- 
specifically Strunk and White -- with racist supremacy is itself a 
racist remark which should not have been made.

--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Jim F.Hilliard]

I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk &
White connected with white supremacy?

Scanning through this thread, its wikipedia page and doing quick google
search, I wasn't able to find something tangible.


Best Regards,

Jim Fasarakis Hilliard
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Richard Damon]

On 6/29/20 6:22 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
> and describes the
> old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the
> problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone
> intentionally keeping it there. 

I would say that say that I have seen the term "relic" being used as a
'weaponized' word to imply that the old thing WAS there intentionally as
a repressive measure. I am not saying that this usage was intended to be
used that way, but just as the old wording was taken as offensive to
some due to implication, I can see that message as offensive to others
due to implication, all because some people are easy to offend.

-- 
Richard Damon
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Steve Holden]

Thank you. I understand the need for tolerance in such matters since
opinions vary, and merely wished to voice my own.

If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these
waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find
distasteful or offensive. I do not necessarily require my opinions to be
thought reasonable, even by other reasonable people.

Kind regards,
Steve


On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:22 AM Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden  wrote:
> > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the
> change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the
> documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly
> regrettable, since it carries with it the implication that the Python
> developer community has somehow been wilfully sanctioning "relics of white
> supremacy" up until the change was made.
> >
> > There certainly is a place in tech for politics, as I have argued many
> times, and I am sure nobody wishes to continue to use language that might
> be offensive to readers. But I would suggest that the politics can safely
> be omitted from commit messages, since they can only properly be fully
> addressed in the conversation about the PR in advance. The wording of the
> commit message has the appearance (probably specious) of wanting to rub
> former misdeeds in the face of a largely innocent community, and that is
> the principal reason I found it distasteful and unnecessary.
>
> I just re-read the commit message, and I think you're being
> oversensitive and imagining things that aren't there. The actual
> commit message is written in a straightforward and factual way, and
> spends special effort on *absolving* the community of this kind of
> guilt. In particular, it emphasizes that the new text is accomplishing
> "the same goal", "maintaining the original intent", and describes the
> old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the
> problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone
> intentionally keeping it there. Merely mentioning the concept of white
> supremacy is not an attack on you or the community [1].
>
> -n
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_defensiveness
>
> --
> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Nathaniel Smith]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden  wrote:
> The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the 
> change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the 
> documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly 
> regrettable, since it carries with it the implication that the Python 
> developer community has somehow been wilfully sanctioning "relics of white 
> supremacy" up until the change was made.
>
> There certainly is a place in tech for politics, as I have argued many times, 
> and I am sure nobody wishes to continue to use language that might be 
> offensive to readers. But I would suggest that the politics can safely be 
> omitted from commit messages, since they can only properly be fully addressed 
> in the conversation about the PR in advance. The wording of the commit 
> message has the appearance (probably specious) of wanting to rub former 
> misdeeds in the face of a largely innocent community, and that is the 
> principal reason I found it distasteful and unnecessary.

I just re-read the commit message, and I think you're being
oversensitive and imagining things that aren't there. The actual
commit message is written in a straightforward and factual way, and
spends special effort on *absolving* the community of this kind of
guilt. In particular, it emphasizes that the new text is accomplishing
"the same goal", "maintaining the original intent", and describes the
old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the
problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone
intentionally keeping it there. Merely mentioning the concept of white
supremacy is not an attack on you or the community [1].

-n

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_defensiveness

-- 
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Steve Holden]

It's broadly accepted among professional writers that the language used
should be acceptable and comprehensible to the audience. This seems
uncontentious.

Posting a straightforward change representing a relaxation of standards
(which were not in any case being enforced) should also be uncontentious.

The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the
change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the
documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly
regrettable, since it carries with it the implication that the Python
developer community has somehow been wilfully sanctioning "relics of white
supremacy" up until the change was made.

There certainly is a place in tech for politics, as I have argued many
times, and I am sure nobody wishes to continue to use language that might
be offensive to readers. But I would suggest that the politics can safely
be omitted from commit messages, since they can only properly be fully
addressed in the conversation about the PR in advance. The wording of the
commit message has the appearance (probably specious) of wanting to rub
former misdeeds in the face of a largely innocent community, and that is
the principal reason I found it distasteful and unnecessary.

Kind regards,
Steve

PS: I also think there is still room for the PEP to remind writers that
many readers of the documentation who graciously allow us to use English
without complaint are using it as their second or even third language, and
all writers should be sympathetic to their needs as a matter of
professional courtesy.



On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:18 PM Paul Sokolovsky  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Shouldn't such feedback be also cross-posted to the python-dev mailing
> list? Also note the original pull request,
> https://github.com/python/peps/pull/1470, and differences of what was
> written in the pull request description and what went in the commit
> message.
>
>
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:10:14 +0200
> "Giampaolo Rodola'"  wrote:
>
> > From:
> >
> https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4
> >
> > > Instead of requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White
> > > Standard
> > English, require instead that English-language comments be clear and
> > easily understandable by other English speakers. This accomplishes
> > the same goal without upholding relics of white supremacy. Many
> > native English speakers do not use Standard English as their native
> > dialect, so requiring conformation to Standard English centers
> > whiteness in an inappropriate and unnecessary way, and can alienate
> > and put up barriers for people of color and those whose native
> > dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a simple
> > way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of the
> > requirement.
> >
> > This has nothing to do with making the wording "clear and
> > understandable" (I agree on that). It's about, once again, bringing
> > race-based politics into Python, and spreading hate towards a
> > specific group of people: whites. Whether you're aware of it or not,
> > there is a term for this: it's racism. I want to remind everyone that
> > most of us here simply want to contribute code. We do it for free,
> > and don't want to be involved in "this", because frankly it's
> > disgusting. Doing something out of passion and for free, and at the
> > same time seeing these sorts of things happening on a regular basis,
> > looks and feels like an insult, and will only lead to people leaving
> > this place.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:27 PM Keara Berlin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all, this is a very small change, but I thought I would field it
> > > here to see if anyone has suggestions or ideas. Instead of
> > > requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White Standard
> > > English, PEP-8 should require instead that English-language
> > > comments be clear and easily understandable by other English
> > > speakers. This accomplishes the same goal without alienating or
> > > putting up barriers for people (especially people of color) whose
> > > native dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a
> > > simple way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of
> > > the requirement. This change may even make the requirement more
> > > clear to people who are not familiar with Strunk & White, since for
> > > programmers, the main relevant aspect of that standard is "be clear
> > > and concise;" simply saying that instead of referencing Strunk &
> > > White may communicate this more effectively. Here is the current
> > > line in PEP-8: "When writing English, follow Strunk and White."
> > > I propose changing this line to "When writing English, ensure that
> > > your comments are clear and easily understandable to other English
> > > speakers." ___
> > > Python-ideas mailing list -- python-id...@python.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an 

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Paul Sokolovsky]

Hello,

Shouldn't such feedback be also cross-posted to the python-dev mailing
list? Also note the original pull request,
https://github.com/python/peps/pull/1470, and differences of what was
written in the pull request description and what went in the commit
message.


On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:10:14 +0200
"Giampaolo Rodola'"  wrote:

> From:
> https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4
> 
> > Instead of requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White
> > Standard  
> English, require instead that English-language comments be clear and
> easily understandable by other English speakers. This accomplishes
> the same goal without upholding relics of white supremacy. Many
> native English speakers do not use Standard English as their native
> dialect, so requiring conformation to Standard English centers
> whiteness in an inappropriate and unnecessary way, and can alienate
> and put up barriers for people of color and those whose native
> dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a simple
> way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of the
> requirement.
> 
> This has nothing to do with making the wording "clear and
> understandable" (I agree on that). It's about, once again, bringing
> race-based politics into Python, and spreading hate towards a
> specific group of people: whites. Whether you're aware of it or not,
> there is a term for this: it's racism. I want to remind everyone that
> most of us here simply want to contribute code. We do it for free,
> and don't want to be involved in "this", because frankly it's
> disgusting. Doing something out of passion and for free, and at the
> same time seeing these sorts of things happening on a regular basis,
> looks and feels like an insult, and will only lead to people leaving
> this place.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:27 PM Keara Berlin 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi all, this is a very small change, but I thought I would field it
> > here to see if anyone has suggestions or ideas. Instead of
> > requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White Standard
> > English, PEP-8 should require instead that English-language
> > comments be clear and easily understandable by other English
> > speakers. This accomplishes the same goal without alienating or
> > putting up barriers for people (especially people of color) whose
> > native dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a
> > simple way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of
> > the requirement. This change may even make the requirement more
> > clear to people who are not familiar with Strunk & White, since for
> > programmers, the main relevant aspect of that standard is "be clear
> > and concise;" simply saying that instead of referencing Strunk &
> > White may communicate this more effectively. Here is the current
> > line in PEP-8: "When writing English, follow Strunk and White."
> > I propose changing this line to "When writing English, ensure that
> > your comments are clear and easily understandable to other English
> > speakers." ___
> > Python-ideas mailing list -- python-id...@python.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/
> > Message archived at
> > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/AE2M7KOIQR37K3XSQW7FSV5KO4LMYHWX/
> > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> >  
> 
> 
> -- 
> Giampaolo - gmpy.dev 



-- 
Best regards,
 Paul  mailto:pmis...@gmail.com
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