Re: [sage-devel] Re: wasm

['William Stein' via sage-devel]

Hi,

Thanks Dima for mentioning CoWasm.  Unfortunately, I ran out of resources
to work on cowasm, so there likely
won't be any further work on it until things change.

 -- William

On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 2:53 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:

> It's interesting to compare this with the development by cocalc people,
> cowasm
> <https://cowasm.org/>
>
> Perhaps William can explain the differences.
>
>
> On 30 April 2024 18:00:26 BST, Matthias Koeppe 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Doris,
>> porting Sage to pyodide is in progress, see
>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/34539, but it's not ready to be
>> used for what you have in mind.
>> I second Oscar's suggestion to look into using *sympy* and/or
>> *python-flint*.
>>
>> The current status of the Sage pyodide port:
>> - Some key dependencies of Sage will be shipped with the next pyodide
>> release (0.26): *ipython*, *cysignals*, *ppl*/*pplpy*, *flint*,
>> *memory_allocator*
>> - https://github.com/pyodide/pyodide/pull/4438 provides the fundamental
>> modularized distribution packages *sagemath-objects*,
>> *sagemath-categories*, *sagemath-environment*, *sagemath-repl*
>>
>> The current bottlenecks / next steps:
>> - *pari*, *cypari2* (https://github.com/pyodide/pyodide/pull/4430; help
>> wanted)
>> - Adding the modularized distribution packages that provide more parts of
>> Sage, in particular *sagemath-pari* and *sagemath-flint*:
>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/37900,
>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/37901 (needs review)
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 30, 2024 at 12:29:35 AM UTC-7 Doris Behrendt wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> My team is about to develop a webapp where we want to factor polynomials
>>> with coefficients in ZZ.
>>> We want to offer a dropdown menu where the user can select the base ring
>>> and then the factorisation changes interactively. We use React and
>>> JavaScript and also Web Assembly, e.g. for our Web-OpenSSL here:
>>> https://www.cryptool.org/en/cto/openssl/
>>>
>>> Sage offers the command change_ring, we did not find a JavaScript
>>> Library that has this functionality. So I thought, perhaps we could look
>>> for solutions where Sage is used together with web assembly.
>>>
>>> After some research I have the impression that there are some proofs of
>>> concept, but there is nothing actively developed?
>>>
>>> Since I am not a programmer and nobody in my team is a mathematician (so
>>> my developers don't know Sage), I kindly ask on this list for any hints how
>>> we could proceed?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>> Doris
>>
>>

-- 

Best Regards,
William Stein

CEO, SageMath, Inc.
https://cocalc.com

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: conda sage

[William Stein]

With switching to Miniforge it is now working for me extremely well.  I’m
going to be making a new video and tutorial about this soon.  Thanks for
all you do Isuru!

-- William Stein


On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 9:11 AM Isuru Fernando  wrote:

> Hi William,
>
> Let me know if you have any questions regarding conda installation of sage.
> It'd be great to have more visibility towards conda installation to
> attract more
> users and developers in particular who can help out.
>
> Thanks,
> Isuru
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 7:37 PM William Stein  wrote:
>
>> Minor correction -- they say "Given its wide usage, there are no plans to
>> deprecate Mambaforge."  So Mambaforge isn't deprecated as I incorrectly
>> wrote.  It's just "discouraged".
>>
>> I'm sorry for the noise, but the *conda* packaging ecosystem makes me
>> dizzy...
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 5:31 PM William Stein  wrote:
>>
>>> I was just carefully reading the page about Mambaforge linked to from
>>> Sage, i.e., this page
>>>
>>> https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge
>>>
>>> and it says that Mambaforge is deprecated and no longer recommended, and
>>> instead people should install Miniforge, i.e., "(Discouraged as of
>>> September 2023)".  We should update the instructions at
>>>
>>>
>>> https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge
>>>
>>> since they recommend the now discouraged Mambaforge.
>>>
>>> The page https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge suggests that
>>> Mambaforge is somehow "just as good", but when I tried doing clean
>>> installs, then installing Sage, I had the best experience (i.e., completely
>>> perfect!) with Miniforge, which is what they recommend.  Basically, we
>>> should instead recommend:
>>>
>>> curl -L -O
>>> https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge/releases/latest/download/Miniforge3-$(uname)-$(uname
>>> -m).sh
>>>
>>> sh Miniforge3-$(uname)-$(uname -m).sh -b -u -p /conda
>>>
>>> -- William
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 4:05 PM William Stein  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> So I was using MicroMamba, whereas that page says Sage only
>>>> supports Mambaforge, Miniforge, Miniconda or Anaconda.I tried with
>>>> Mambaforge (as recommended there) and everything works perfectly, with
>>>> sage-10.2 being available, and nicely integrated with the conda ecosystem,
>>>> and also it's easy to switch Python versions.  So I'll switch from using
>>>> MicroMamba to Mambaforge.  Problem solved.
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:47 PM William Stein  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:39 PM Matthias Koeppe <
>>>>> matthiaskoe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> William, do the instructions in our Installation Guide work for you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Note in particular this step: "Change channel priority to strict:
>>>>>> conda config --set channel_priority strict"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm using micromamba, which is supposed to be a drop in replacement
>>>>> for conda, but it just gives an error for the above, so maybe it is 
>>>>> missing
>>>>> critical features needed to install sage:
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set
>>>>> channel_priority strict
>>>>> The following arguments were not expected: strict channel_priority
>>>>> --set
>>>>> Run with --help for more information.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll revisit whether I need to switch to another conda...
>>>>>
>>>>> That said micromamba has strict by default:
>>>>> https://github.com/mamba-org/provision-with-micromamba/issues/33
>>>>>
>>>>> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set
>>>>> channel_priority strict --help
>>>>> Configuration of micromamba
>&

Re: [sage-devel] stopping cypari2, pari-jupyter and pplpy maintenance

[William Stein]

Hi Vincent,

To help whoever takes over, do you have any comments about *why* you
will not work on any of these projects?  Is it just lack of time and you
need
to focus on something else, or is there something fundamentally annoying
about the direction of these projects?  Thanks for any insight to help guide
whoever takes over.

 -- William

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 10:44 AM Vincent Delecroix <
20100.delecr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I used to be the maintainer of cypari2, pari-jupyter and pplpy. I will
> not work anymore on any of them from now on. The three projects are
> under the sagemath organization on github so that any administrator
> can take over. Concerning the access to PyPI to push releases I can
> promote anybody who wants access (do we have a policy for this?).
>
> Best
> Vincent
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> .
>


-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: conda sage

[William Stein]

Minor correction -- they say "Given its wide usage, there are no plans to
deprecate Mambaforge."  So Mambaforge isn't deprecated as I incorrectly
wrote.  It's just "discouraged".

I'm sorry for the noise, but the *conda* packaging ecosystem makes me
dizzy...

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 5:31 PM William Stein  wrote:

> I was just carefully reading the page about Mambaforge linked to from
> Sage, i.e., this page
>
> https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge
>
> and it says that Mambaforge is deprecated and no longer recommended, and
> instead people should install Miniforge, i.e., "(Discouraged as of
> September 2023)".  We should update the instructions at
>
>
> https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge
>
> since they recommend the now discouraged Mambaforge.
>
> The page https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge suggests that
> Mambaforge is somehow "just as good", but when I tried doing clean
> installs, then installing Sage, I had the best experience (i.e., completely
> perfect!) with Miniforge, which is what they recommend.  Basically, we
> should instead recommend:
>
> curl -L -O
> https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge/releases/latest/download/Miniforge3-$(uname)-$(uname
> -m).sh
>
> sh Miniforge3-$(uname)-$(uname -m).sh -b -u -p /conda
>
> -- William
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 4:05 PM William Stein  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> So I was using MicroMamba, whereas that page says Sage only
>> supports Mambaforge, Miniforge, Miniconda or Anaconda.I tried with
>> Mambaforge (as recommended there) and everything works perfectly, with
>> sage-10.2 being available, and nicely integrated with the conda ecosystem,
>> and also it's easy to switch Python versions.  So I'll switch from using
>> MicroMamba to Mambaforge.  Problem solved.
>>
>> William
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:47 PM William Stein  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:39 PM Matthias Koeppe <
>>> matthiaskoe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> William, do the instructions in our Installation Guide work for you?
>>>>
>>>> https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Note in particular this step: "Change channel priority to strict: conda
>>>> config --set channel_priority strict"
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm using micromamba, which is supposed to be a drop in replacement for
>>> conda, but it just gives an error for the above, so maybe it is missing
>>> critical features needed to install sage:
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set
>>> channel_priority strict
>>> The following arguments were not expected: strict channel_priority --set
>>> Run with --help for more information.
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> I'll revisit whether I need to switch to another conda...
>>>
>>> That said micromamba has strict by default:
>>> https://github.com/mamba-org/provision-with-micromamba/issues/33
>>>
>>> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set
>>> channel_priority strict --help
>>> Configuration of micromamba
>>> Usage: /usr/local/bin/micromamba config [OPTIONS] [SUBCOMMAND]
>>>
>>> Options:
>>>   -h,--help   Print this help message and exit
>>>
>>>
>>> Configuration options:
>>>   --rc-file TEXT ...  Paths to the configuration files to use
>>>   --no-rc Disable the use of configuration files
>>>   --no-envDisable the use of environment variables
>>>
>>>
>>> Global options:
>>>   -v,--verboseSet verbosity (higher verbosity with
>>> multiple -v, e.g. -vvv)
>>>   --log-level ENUM:value in
>>> {critical->5,debug->1,error->4,info->2,off->6,trace->0,warning->3} OR
>>> {5,1,4,2,6,0,3}
>>>   Set the log level
>>>   -q,--quiet  Set quiet mode (print less output)
>>>   -y,--yesAutomatically answer yes on prompted
>>> questions
>>>   --json  Report all output as json
>>>   --offline   Force use cached repodata
>>>   --dry-run   Only display what would have been done
>>>   --download-only O

Re: [sage-devel] Re: conda sage

[William Stein]

I was just carefully reading the page about Mambaforge linked to from Sage,
i.e., this page

https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge

and it says that Mambaforge is deprecated and no longer recommended, and
instead people should install Miniforge, i.e., "(Discouraged as of
September 2023)".  We should update the instructions at

https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge

since they recommend the now discouraged Mambaforge.

The page https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge suggests that Mambaforge
is somehow "just as good", but when I tried doing clean installs, then
installing Sage, I had the best experience (i.e., completely perfect!) with
Miniforge, which is what they recommend.  Basically, we should instead
recommend:

curl -L -O
https://github.com/conda-forge/miniforge/releases/latest/download/Miniforge3-$(uname)-$(uname
-m).sh

sh Miniforge3-$(uname)-$(uname -m).sh -b -u -p /conda

-- William

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 4:05 PM William Stein  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> So I was using MicroMamba, whereas that page says Sage only
> supports Mambaforge, Miniforge, Miniconda or Anaconda.I tried with
> Mambaforge (as recommended there) and everything works perfectly, with
> sage-10.2 being available, and nicely integrated with the conda ecosystem,
> and also it's easy to switch Python versions.  So I'll switch from using
> MicroMamba to Mambaforge.  Problem solved.
>
> William
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:47 PM William Stein  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:39 PM Matthias Koeppe 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> William, do the instructions in our Installation Guide work for you?
>>>
>>> https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge
>>>
>>>
>>
>>> Note in particular this step: "Change channel priority to strict: conda
>>> config --set channel_priority strict"
>>>
>>
>> I'm using micromamba, which is supposed to be a drop in replacement for
>> conda, but it just gives an error for the above, so maybe it is missing
>> critical features needed to install sage:
>>
>> ---
>>
>> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set
>> channel_priority strict
>> The following arguments were not expected: strict channel_priority --set
>> Run with --help for more information.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> I'll revisit whether I need to switch to another conda...
>>
>> That said micromamba has strict by default:
>> https://github.com/mamba-org/provision-with-micromamba/issues/33
>>
>> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set
>> channel_priority strict --help
>> Configuration of micromamba
>> Usage: /usr/local/bin/micromamba config [OPTIONS] [SUBCOMMAND]
>>
>> Options:
>>   -h,--help   Print this help message and exit
>>
>>
>> Configuration options:
>>   --rc-file TEXT ...  Paths to the configuration files to use
>>   --no-rc Disable the use of configuration files
>>   --no-envDisable the use of environment variables
>>
>>
>> Global options:
>>   -v,--verboseSet verbosity (higher verbosity with
>> multiple -v, e.g. -vvv)
>>   --log-level ENUM:value in
>> {critical->5,debug->1,error->4,info->2,off->6,trace->0,warning->3} OR
>> {5,1,4,2,6,0,3}
>>   Set the log level
>>   -q,--quiet  Set quiet mode (print less output)
>>   -y,--yesAutomatically answer yes on prompted
>> questions
>>   --json  Report all output as json
>>   --offline   Force use cached repodata
>>   --dry-run   Only display what would have been done
>>   --download-only Only download and extract packages, do not
>> link them into environment.
>>   --experimental  Enable experimental features
>>
>>
>> Prefix options:
>>   -r,--root-prefix TEXT   Path to the root prefix
>>   -p,--prefix TEXTPath to the target prefix
>>   --relocate-prefix TEXT  Path to the relocation prefix
>>   -n,--name TEXT  Name of the target prefix
>>
>> Subcommands:
>>   listList configuration values
>>   sources Show configuration sources
>>   describeDescribe given configuration parameters
>>   prepend Add one configuration value to the
>> beginning of a list key
>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: conda sage

[William Stein]

Hi,

So I was using MicroMamba, whereas that page says Sage only
supports Mambaforge, Miniforge, Miniconda or Anaconda.I tried with
Mambaforge (as recommended there) and everything works perfectly, with
sage-10.2 being available, and nicely integrated with the conda ecosystem,
and also it's easy to switch Python versions.  So I'll switch from using
MicroMamba to Mambaforge.  Problem solved.

William

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:47 PM William Stein  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:39 PM Matthias Koeppe 
> wrote:
>
>> William, do the instructions in our Installation Guide work for you?
>>
>> https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge
>>
>>
>
>> Note in particular this step: "Change channel priority to strict: conda
>> config --set channel_priority strict"
>>
>
> I'm using micromamba, which is supposed to be a drop in replacement for
> conda, but it just gives an error for the above, so maybe it is missing
> critical features needed to install sage:
>
> ---
>
> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set channel_priority
> strict
> The following arguments were not expected: strict channel_priority --set
> Run with --help for more information.
>
> ---
>
> I'll revisit whether I need to switch to another conda...
>
> That said micromamba has strict by default:
> https://github.com/mamba-org/provision-with-micromamba/issues/33
>
> (compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set channel_priority
> strict --help
> Configuration of micromamba
> Usage: /usr/local/bin/micromamba config [OPTIONS] [SUBCOMMAND]
>
> Options:
>   -h,--help   Print this help message and exit
>
>
> Configuration options:
>   --rc-file TEXT ...  Paths to the configuration files to use
>   --no-rc Disable the use of configuration files
>   --no-envDisable the use of environment variables
>
>
> Global options:
>   -v,--verboseSet verbosity (higher verbosity with
> multiple -v, e.g. -vvv)
>   --log-level ENUM:value in
> {critical->5,debug->1,error->4,info->2,off->6,trace->0,warning->3} OR
> {5,1,4,2,6,0,3}
>   Set the log level
>   -q,--quiet  Set quiet mode (print less output)
>   -y,--yesAutomatically answer yes on prompted
> questions
>   --json  Report all output as json
>   --offline   Force use cached repodata
>   --dry-run   Only display what would have been done
>   --download-only Only download and extract packages, do not
> link them into environment.
>   --experimental  Enable experimental features
>
>
> Prefix options:
>   -r,--root-prefix TEXT   Path to the root prefix
>   -p,--prefix TEXTPath to the target prefix
>   --relocate-prefix TEXT  Path to the relocation prefix
>   -n,--name TEXT  Name of the target prefix
>
> Subcommands:
>   listList configuration values
>   sources Show configuration sources
>   describeDescribe given configuration parameters
>   prepend Add one configuration value to the beginning
> of a list key
>   append  Add one configuration value to the end of a
> list key
>   remove-key  Remove a configuration key and its values
>   remove  Remove a configuration value from a list
> key. This removes all instances of the value.
>   set Set a configuration value
>   get Get a configuration value
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 12:36:47 PM UTC-7 William Stein wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just tried installing sage via conda and it's broken.   Am I doing
>>> something wrong, or is there any automated testing of sage in conda (which
>>> might be a good thing to have)?  I was going to publicize sage+conda in a
>>> post I was about to make, but won't...
>>>
>>> 1. Install mambaforge into Ubuntu
>>> 2. Add conda-forge channel
>>> 3. Install the "sage" package.
>>> 4. It appears to install but is broken, evidently maybe due to a libgsl
>>> dependency (not sure):
>>>
>>> user@compute-server-1540:anaconda$ sage -sh
>>> ...
>>> (sage-sh) user@compute-server-1540:anaconda$ python
>>> Python 3.11.6 | packaged by conda-forge | (main, Oct  3 2023, 10:40:35)
>>> [GCC 12.3.0] on l

Re: [sage-devel] Re: conda sage

[William Stein]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:39 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> William, do the instructions in our Installation Guide work for you?
>
> https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/installation/conda#install-from-conda-forge
>
>

> Note in particular this step: "Change channel priority to strict: conda
> config --set channel_priority strict"
>

I'm using micromamba, which is supposed to be a drop in replacement for
conda, but it just gives an error for the above, so maybe it is missing
critical features needed to install sage:

---

(compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set channel_priority
strict
The following arguments were not expected: strict channel_priority --set
Run with --help for more information.

---

I'll revisit whether I need to switch to another conda...

That said micromamba has strict by default:
https://github.com/mamba-org/provision-with-micromamba/issues/33

(compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ micromamba config --set channel_priority
strict --help
Configuration of micromamba
Usage: /usr/local/bin/micromamba config [OPTIONS] [SUBCOMMAND]

Options:
  -h,--help   Print this help message and exit


Configuration options:
  --rc-file TEXT ...  Paths to the configuration files to use
  --no-rc Disable the use of configuration files
  --no-envDisable the use of environment variables


Global options:
  -v,--verboseSet verbosity (higher verbosity with multiple
-v, e.g. -vvv)
  --log-level ENUM:value in
{critical->5,debug->1,error->4,info->2,off->6,trace->0,warning->3} OR
{5,1,4,2,6,0,3}
  Set the log level
  -q,--quiet  Set quiet mode (print less output)
  -y,--yesAutomatically answer yes on prompted questions
  --json  Report all output as json
  --offline   Force use cached repodata
  --dry-run   Only display what would have been done
  --download-only Only download and extract packages, do not
link them into environment.
  --experimental  Enable experimental features


Prefix options:
  -r,--root-prefix TEXT   Path to the root prefix
  -p,--prefix TEXTPath to the target prefix
  --relocate-prefix TEXT  Path to the relocation prefix
  -n,--name TEXT  Name of the target prefix

Subcommands:
  listList configuration values
  sources Show configuration sources
  describeDescribe given configuration parameters
  prepend Add one configuration value to the beginning
of a list key
  append  Add one configuration value to the end of a
list key
  remove-key  Remove a configuration key and its values
  remove  Remove a configuration value from a list key.
This removes all instances of the value.
  set Set a configuration value
  get Get a configuration value


>
>
>
> On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 12:36:47 PM UTC-7 William Stein wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just tried installing sage via conda and it's broken.   Am I doing
>> something wrong, or is there any automated testing of sage in conda (which
>> might be a good thing to have)?  I was going to publicize sage+conda in a
>> post I was about to make, but won't...
>>
>> 1. Install mambaforge into Ubuntu
>> 2. Add conda-forge channel
>> 3. Install the "sage" package.
>> 4. It appears to install but is broken, evidently maybe due to a libgsl
>> dependency (not sure):
>>
>> user@compute-server-1540:anaconda$ sage -sh
>> ...
>> (sage-sh) user@compute-server-1540:anaconda$ python
>> Python 3.11.6 | packaged by conda-forge | (main, Oct  3 2023, 10:40:35)
>> [GCC 12.3.0] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>> >>> import sage.all
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "", line 1, in 
>>   File "/conda/envs/default/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sage/all.py",
>> line 75, in 
>> from sage.misc.all   import * # takes a while
>> ^
>>   File
>> "/conda/envs/default/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sage/misc/all.py", line
>> 62, in 
>> from .functional import (additive_order,
>>   File
>> "/conda/envs/default/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sage/misc/functional.py",
>> line 26, in 
>> from sage.rings.c

[sage-devel] conda sage

[William Stein]

Hi,

I just tried installing sage via conda and it's broken.   Am I doing
something wrong, or is there any automated testing of sage in conda (which
might be a good thing to have)?  I was going to publicize sage+conda in a
post I was about to make, but won't...

1. Install mambaforge into Ubuntu
2. Add conda-forge channel
3. Install the "sage" package.
4. It appears to install but is broken, evidently maybe due to a libgsl
dependency (not sure):

user@compute-server-1540:anaconda$ sage -sh
...
(sage-sh) user@compute-server-1540:anaconda$ python
Python 3.11.6 | packaged by conda-forge | (main, Oct  3 2023, 10:40:35)
[GCC 12.3.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sage.all
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in 
  File "/conda/envs/default/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sage/all.py", line
75, in 
from sage.misc.all   import * # takes a while
^
  File "/conda/envs/default/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sage/misc/all.py",
line 62, in 
from .functional import (additive_order,
  File
"/conda/envs/default/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sage/misc/functional.py",
line 26, in 
from sage.rings.complex_double import CDF
ImportError: libgsl.so.25: cannot open shared object file: No such file or
directory
>>>
sage:

(compute-server-1540) ~/anaconda$ sage
┌┐
│ SageMath version 10.1, Release Date: 2023-08-20│
│ Using Python 3.11.6. Type "help()" for help.   │
└┘
┏┓
┃ Warning: sage.all is not available; this is a limited REPL.┃
┗┛
sage: factor(2024)
---
NameError Traceback (most recent call last)
Cell In[1], line 1
> 1 factor(Integer(2024))

NameError: name 'factor' is not defined
sage:



William

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[William Stein]

Hi,

I also strongly support this initiative for Sage to join NumFocus at this
point in time.

Regarding Cython, I made up the name in maybe 2008, and started it as a
project by combining "Pyrex" that Greg Ewing worked on periodically,
my own fork of Pyrex that had features I added that were needed for Sage,
and  Stefan Behnel's fork that was needed for lxml.
Robert Bradshaw (my phd student at the time) and Craig Citro (my postdoc)
then started working on it, and they added a huge amount
of functionality, e.g., they fully implemented closures, which was
nontrivial; also, I remember they added some type
inference optimizations, and generally greatly improved the unit testing.
I've cc'd Robert and Craig in case they want to add anything.
Sage has always been I think by far the biggest Cython user, and testing of
Cython by Sage helps ensure better stability and quality.

 -- William

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 8:50 AM David Roe  wrote:

> I support Matthias' initiative to join NumFocus.  Looking at the
> application <https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NumFOCUS>, there are
> only a few todo items:
> * Describe the shared history with Cython and IPython.  This doesn't need
> to be extensive, but would be useful.
> * If we update the code of conduct in #37501
> <https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/37501>, we should update the dates
> when the code of conduct was last modified.
>
> There is also discussion at the bottom about Sage's governance structure,
> but I don't think that's required for an affiliated project.
> David
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 3:37 PM Matthias Koeppe 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think one needs to read between the lines. Per
>> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html#project-jupyter-s-needs
>> it's about funding goals in the $1-$2 million range + permanent staffing +
>> support for "operating" (which is described there as "legal/trademark,
>> marketing, fundraising, accounting, contracts, internships, events, dev
>> ops, etc.")
>> None of these seem relevant for our current effort to become a NumFOCUS
>> affiliated project.
>>
>> But as there is a sudden sign of life in this thread, let me point out
>> that I have an expanded version of the initial proposal draft:
>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NumFOCUS and I welcome discussion
>> here and collaborative editing in the wiki page.
>> I'll submit by the next target date (Apr 15).
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 11:28:38 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 2:08:07 PM UTC-5 William Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their
>>> relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:
>>>
>>> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting, and certainly relevant.  It's a little unclear to me why
>>> NumFOCUS is not appropriate for them, other than a vague reference to
>>> operations - can anyone read between the lines for those of us not as
>>> plugged into that world?
>>>
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>> .
>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[William Stein]

Hi,

Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their
relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:

https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html

William

On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 12:59 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> In case people are interested in a synchronous discussion of this topic,
> here's a poll to find suitable meeting times Feb 1–4.
> https://whenisgood.net/sage-numfocus
>
> On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 11:42:10 PM UTC-8 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
>> As I have not received sufficient feedback by today, I'll retarget to the
>> next deadline, Apr 15.
>> Comments and discussion please by January 31.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-8 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>>
>>> Over the years, it has been suggested that our project seek affiliation
>>> with the NumFocus organization (https://numfocus.org/)
>>>
>>> *2016:* E.M. Bray asks in
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/8-BfX8KxFuI/m/CQRmz_3vDQAJ:  Is
>>> there any particular objection about approaching NumFOCUS [...]? (there is
>>> no objection or any response for that matter)
>>>
>>> *2018: *E.M. Bray's 2018 sage-devel post (
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/aY0GVqBwFkI/m/cTqfaBN5AQAJ)
>>> gives a great overview on benefits for us and the difference between
>>> "Affiliated projects" and "Sponsored projects"; in the same thread, D.V.
>>> Pasechnik reports having been put in charge of co-leading it by William,
>>> but notes his reservations about CoC; Jason Grout reports having given
>>> NumFOCUS people a heads-up.
>>>
>>> *2019:* V. Delecroix brings up NumFOCUS (
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/sGFOYBeEq-Q/m/NUCfS2zhAQAJ),
>>> S. Lelievre points to the 2018 post, E.M. Bray follows up with a discussion
>>> of questions of governance.
>>>
>>> *2022:* D.V. Pasechnik notes that the NumFOCUS effort "appears to be
>>> stalled".
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/G7qZkzjWDZU/m/MgrEqTqJAQAJ
>>>
>>> *As of today, 2024,* in my opinion, SageMath is clearly not able to
>>> meet the additional requirements of a NumFOCUS Sponsored Project (
>>> https://numfocus.org/projects-overview): "A transparent, publicly
>>> visible governance model" (), "A roadmap outlining high priority work
>>> areas" (although my modularization project provides
>>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/29705 provides a viable
>>> candidate for > 50% of it).
>>>
>>> *But we can easily apply to become a NumFOCUS Affiliated Project; it's
>>> 21 easy questions in a slightly awkward web form (*
>>> https://numfocus.typeform.com/to/VUPE35?typeform-source=numfocus.org)*.
>>> The next deadline is Monday January 15*, and I will turn in an
>>> application on behalf of the project unless I hear serious, qualified
>>> objections.
>>>
>>> Below are my draft responses to the 21 questions; any suggestions and
>>> corrections are very welcome.
>>>
>>> 
>>> Question 1
>>> Does your project have a contributor Code of Conduct?
>>> *Yes*
>>>
>>> Question 2
>>> What is the name of your project?
>>>
>>> *SageMath*
>>> Question 3
>>> Please provide the url of your project's (primary) repo:
>>>
>>> *https://github.com/sagemath/sage *
>>> Question 4
>>> Your project's website:
>>>
>>> *https://www.sagemath.org/ *
>>> Question 5
>>> Please provide a summary description of your project in a few sentences:
>>> *Comprehensive mathematical software system*
>>>
>>> Question 6
>>> Does your project have a logo?
>>>
>>> *Yes*
>>>
>>> Question 7
>>> Please upload a .svg file of your project's logo. A "square" format is
>>> best.
>>> *982721.png*
>>>
>>> Question 8
>>> Your project's Twitter handle or other social media handles/urls:
>>> *https://twitter.com/sagemath ,
>>> https://mathstodon.xyz/@sagemath , *
>>> *https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sage-Math/26593144945
>>> , *
>>> Question 9
>>> Why do you want your project to join NumFOCUS?
>>> *TBD*
>>>
>>> Question 10
>>> Are you applying for Fiscal Sponsorship or Affiliation? For more
>>> information, see https://numfocus.org/projects-overview
>>>
>>> *B. affiliation*
>>> Question 11
>>> How does your project relate to or integrate with the existing ecosystem
>>> of NumFOCUS tools?
>>> *Cython, CVXpy, igraph, IPython, Jupyter, Matplotlib, NetworkX, NumPy,
>>> SciPy, SymPy are dependencies of SageMath. Additionally, volunteers
>>> maintain conda-forge packaging of SageMath.*
>>>
>>> Question 12
>>> Describe how your project furthers the NumFOCUS mission:
>>> https://numfocus.org/community/mission
>>> *SageMath is mathematical software with an integration mission. *
>>>
>>> Question 13
>>> How many active contributors does your project currently have?
>>>
>>> *70*
>>> Question 14
>>> Any comments you’d like to make on the number of your active
>>> contributors:
>>>
>>> *as per
>>> 

Re: [sage-devel] VOTE: Use "CI Fix" label for merging into continuous integration runs

[William Stein]

+1

On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 8:03 AM Edgar Costa  wrote:

> +1
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 10:49 Giacomo Pope  wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> On Monday, March 4, 2024 at 1:57:48 PM UTC Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 8:43 AM David Roe  wrote:
>>>
 The following proposal has been made several times the last few weeks:
 in PR #37428 , in this
 thread  and then
 in this thread .
 It is orthogonal to the ongoing vote in this thread
 .  With no
 further discussion, I'm calling a vote.

 *Background*

 Starting in Sage 10.2, PRs with the Blocker label have been merged into
 all other PRs before running CI; see the changelog
 
 and this post
 
 for more details.  This has led to disagreements about whether this label
 should be applied.

 *Proposal*
 We use "CI Fix" rather than Blocker to determine whether an open PR
 should be merged before running CI.  Blocker will retain its previous
 meaning of a PR that should be merged before the next release is finished.
 The process below describes how to resolve disagreements about whether the
 "CI Fix" label should be applied.
 a. Only PRs with positive review should be marked with the "CI Fix"
 label.  This should be done if both author and reviewer agree that it is
 appropriate, and a rationale should be given in a comment on the ticket.
 b. If a PR becomes disputed (as described in this proposal
 ), the "CI Fix"
 status can be voted on separately upon request; otherwise it should be
 applied if and only if positive review is applied.

 Voting will be open until Wednesday, March 13.
 David


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: use "blocker" label only for PRs; use "critical" label for Issues

[William Stein]

On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 8:39 AM Eric Gourgoulhon 
wrote:

> -1 from my side, for I think an issue can be a blocker.
> For instance:
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/36914
> This issue, which regards the use of the notebook, could not have been
> detected by the CI framework.  It is a serious regression and definitely a
> blocker IMHO: are we willing to release a version of SageMath that cannot
> be used without an internet connection?
>

Related to this, do you think

https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/34233

should also be a blocker?  In Sage if you create a plot with a large y-axis
range, the labels on the y axis are
mathematically incorrect, which is confusing to our largest group of users
(beginners).

-- William


>
> Eric.
>
> Le mercredi 28 février 2024 à 07:45:03 UTC+1, Kwankyu Lee a écrit :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Here I withdraw the early premature "giving up" on my recent proposal,
>> since afterwards there were some positive comments. Hence I open a voting
>> for
>>
>> Proposal:
>>
>> 1. Do not use "blocker" label for Issues, as "blocker" means to delay the
>> release.
>> 2. Instead use "critical" label for a very serious and urgent Issue.
>> 3. A PR fixing the "critical" Issue will likely get the "blocker" label.
>> 4. Old Issues converted from trac with "critical" label will get the
>> "major" label instead.
>>
>> Voting will end when there is no new vote for a week.
>>
>> This is a simple majority voting (following the standard on sage-devel
>> proposal)!
>>
>> A positive vote is for all parts of the Proposal. So if you do not like
>> any of (1) -- (4), cast a negative vote (-1).
>>
>>
>> Happy voting!
>>
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> .
>


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Re: [sage-devel] Proposal: Make pytest, pytest_xdist, pytest_mock, python_build standard packages

[William Stein]

(Also, thanks everyone for so far taking extra effort to be civil when
discussing the topic of vendored
dependencies, which I know touches a nerve for people.)

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 4:36 PM William Stein  wrote:
>
> Hi Dima,
>
> I believe I'm the person who introduced that long standing policy.  It
> was indeed motivated by a significant paying customer's requirement
> to install Sage entirely from source, and without an external network.
> I believe no such customers have supported the Sage project for about
> a decade, so I'm very supportive of removing this policy.
>
> It's possible to install pip packages without an internet connection,
> and it's also
> more likely that popular published pip packages are being scanned for
> vulnerabilities
> regularly, than it is that a vendored version of that same package in
> the sage source
> distro is being scanned.
>
> I hope you do bring this to a vote, and feel free to copy my above statement 
> of
> support.
>
> I also strongly agree with Matthias that a vote about pip
> installability may be considered
> separately from a vote to add these testing packages.
>
>  -- William
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 4:09 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10 February 2024 23:40:59 GMT, Matthias Koeppe 
> >  wrote:
> > >On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 2:56:57 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> > >
> > >yes, make them standard, but keep them pip packages (i.e. no version
> > >pinning, no tarballs/checksums).
> > >
> > >
> > >By current policy, "standard" packages cannot be "pip" packages. This is
> > >documented in
> > >https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/developer/packaging#package-source-types
> > >
> > >I believe the reason is that it would conflict with the longstanding
> > >practice of the project to ship Sage releases in the form of a
> > >self-contained source tarball, from which Sage can be installed in an
> > >environment without network access.
> >
> > It's long overdue to revise this policy.
> > If someone wants to use Sage in a 3-letter agency-like environment, we need 
> > not facilitate this admittedly rare scenario, we are not in spyware tools 
> > business after all.
> >
> > Besides, it is hard to create an installation medium with all the necessary 
> > extra packages on it, e.g. by downloading these missing wheels while 
> > running "make dist" (or whatever is used to create these tarballs)
> >
> > How about we initiate a vote on letting standard packages be pip packages?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >I will note that I personally never use these tarballs (nor have I
> > >recommended to anyone to use them), but historically it has been the
> > >expectation of the community. See for example the 2016 sage-devel thread
> > >https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/C7-ho1zvEYU/m/Ep8i-cbHAgAJ on a
> > >similar topic.
> > >
> > >So for the purpose of the present poll, let us assume that the packages
> > >would be added as standard "wheel" packages.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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> > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/764854CA-8AFD-4FB2-8A51-42F58BDE5D31%40gmail.com.
>
>
>
> --
> William (http://wstein.org)



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Re: [sage-devel] Proposal: Make pytest, pytest_xdist, pytest_mock, python_build standard packages

[William Stein]

Hi Dima,

I believe I'm the person who introduced that long standing policy.  It
was indeed motivated by a significant paying customer's requirement
to install Sage entirely from source, and without an external network.
I believe no such customers have supported the Sage project for about
a decade, so I'm very supportive of removing this policy.

It's possible to install pip packages without an internet connection,
and it's also
more likely that popular published pip packages are being scanned for
vulnerabilities
regularly, than it is that a vendored version of that same package in
the sage source
distro is being scanned.

I hope you do bring this to a vote, and feel free to copy my above statement of
support.

I also strongly agree with Matthias that a vote about pip
installability may be considered
separately from a vote to add these testing packages.

 -- William

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 4:09 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10 February 2024 23:40:59 GMT, Matthias Koeppe  
> wrote:
> >On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 2:56:57 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> >
> >yes, make them standard, but keep them pip packages (i.e. no version
> >pinning, no tarballs/checksums).
> >
> >
> >By current policy, "standard" packages cannot be "pip" packages. This is
> >documented in
> >https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/developer/packaging#package-source-types
> >
> >I believe the reason is that it would conflict with the longstanding
> >practice of the project to ship Sage releases in the form of a
> >self-contained source tarball, from which Sage can be installed in an
> >environment without network access.
>
> It's long overdue to revise this policy.
> If someone wants to use Sage in a 3-letter agency-like environment, we need 
> not facilitate this admittedly rare scenario, we are not in spyware tools 
> business after all.
>
> Besides, it is hard to create an installation medium with all the necessary 
> extra packages on it, e.g. by downloading these missing wheels while running 
> "make dist" (or whatever is used to create these tarballs)
>
> How about we initiate a vote on letting standard packages be pip packages?
>
>
>
>
> >
> >I will note that I personally never use these tarballs (nor have I
> >recommended to anyone to use them), but historically it has been the
> >expectation of the community. See for example the 2016 sage-devel thread
> >https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/C7-ho1zvEYU/m/Ep8i-cbHAgAJ on a
> >similar topic.
> >
> >So for the purpose of the present poll, let us assume that the packages
> >would be added as standard "wheel" packages.
> >
>
> --
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[sage-devel] Disputed Pull Requests / Role Sage-Abuse and the Code of Conduct

[William Stein]

Dear Sage Developers,

1. There are over 20 pull requests labeled as "disputed" [1].  To
resolve these pull requests, we will be appointing an editor with no
direct involvement in the pull request to make a judgement call on
that particular pull request.   We will then fully support the
decision of this editor. If you have the time to be the (possibly
anonymous) editor for a disputed pull request, please email us
(wst...@gmail.com, vbraun.n...@gmail.com) and we'll  add your name to
our list.

2. There are numerous recent reports of violations of the code of
conduct to the sage-abuse mailing list.   The code of conduct should
not be used as a tool in case you don't agree with somebody else.  For
now, the main act of censure that the sage-abuse committee will be
taking going forward will be to delete comments (on github and mailing
lists) that violate the code of conduct.

We do not have much time to devote to Sage development.  However, we
both very much want things to move forward in a friendly and
encouraging way, and we would greatly appreciate it if the community
of Sage developers will support the above plan to move things forward
and ensure a positive experience for everyone participating in Sage
development.

Best regards,

Volker Braun and William Stein

[1] https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3Adisputed

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Re: [sage-devel] Wanted: Unicode testers with PR #36861

[William Stein]

Hi,

I just did some new benchmarks comparing lualatex to xelatex on some
basic formulas like what I think is likely
to be relevant.  This just involved running laulatex and xelatex many
times on the same tex file full of equations
and looking at the time.  I used a ramdisk to avoid disk speed
mattering.  The times were very stable:

lualatex -- 1 second
xelatex -- 1.2 seconds
pdflatex -- 0.43 seconds

So I totally retract my concern about lualatex being slower than
xelatex.  In fact it's about the same or faster
in this benchmark.  That said, pdflatex is noticeably faster than either.

-- William

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 2:01 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 9:30 PM William Stein  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Last time I benchmarked things, luatex was sometimes the slowest of
> > the three major latex compilers, sometimes by a factor of 2.
> > I realize benchmarking could be impacted by things like how exactly
> > Lua was built on the target platform, as part of latex.  In any case,
> > for
> > this application, performance could matter.
>
> Let me say few words on preference for lualatex. Once I heard about
> Kwankyu's PR, I immediately suggested that should be luatex, not
> xetex. After trying xetex he decided to switch it to luatex.
>
> 1) lua(lat)tex is the official TexLive's successor of pdf(la)tex. It
> has proper unicode support,
> one can use unicode maths, etc. luatex is packaged better within TeXLive too.
>
> 2) xelatex has been in maintenance mode for some year by now, and
> it's unicode support is a bit funny. (in pdflatex it's next to nonexistent)
>
> 3) For building sagemath PDF docs it doesn't matter much, one doesn't
> do it often, it's not instant.
> Using unicode in docstrings makes them more readable and faster (less 
> MathJax).
>
> OTOH Sage's view() might need the speed, but you can change what
> engine you use there
> irrespective of what's used for building the docs.
>
> Dima
> >
> > I had nothing to do with them making xelatex the default, and I think
> > Lua and Luatex are beautiful pieces of software.
> >
> >  -- William
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:22 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Doris,
> > > It just has been turned to use lualatex
> > >
> > > HTH
> > > Dima
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 8:06 PM 'Doris Behrendt' via sage-devel
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > why xelatex and not lualatex?
> > > >
> > > > Doris
> > > >
> > > > > On 14. Dec 2023, at 10:18, Kwankyu Lee  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > The PR
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/36861
> > > > >
> > > > > aims at switching from pdflatex to xelatex the latex engine to render 
> > > > > objects in pdf using the command like "view(objects)" as well as in 
> > > > > building the sage documentation.
> > > > >
> > > > > As xelatex natively supports Unicode, we removed lots of commands like
> > > > >
> > > > > \DeclareUnicodeCharacter{03B1}{\ensuremath{\alpha}}
> > > > >
> > > > > which were needed to support Unicode in pdflatex.
> > > > >
> > > > > We worry that some Unicode functionality was lost in this process, 
> > > > > and so we invite Unicode users to test with the PR.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is the Binder link to where you can play around with 
> > > > > xelatex-enabled sage:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://mybinder.org/v2/gh/kwankyu/sage/use-xelatex-by-default-binder
> > > > >
> > > > > or you should build sage with the PR.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you find some Unicode-related defect not existent in sage 10.2, 
> > > > > please report it to the PR.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> > > > > Groups "sage-devel" group.
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> > > > > send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/ac185d29-

Re: [sage-devel] Wanted: Unicode testers with PR #36861

[William Stein]

Hi,

Last time I benchmarked things, luatex was sometimes the slowest of
the three major latex compilers, sometimes by a factor of 2.
I realize benchmarking could be impacted by things like how exactly
Lua was built on the target platform, as part of latex.  In any case,
for
this application, performance could matter.

I had nothing to do with them making xelatex the default, and I think
Lua and Luatex are beautiful pieces of software.

 -- William

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:22 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> Hi Doris,
> It just has been turned to use lualatex
>
> HTH
> Dima
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 8:06 PM 'Doris Behrendt' via sage-devel
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > why xelatex and not lualatex?
> >
> > Doris
> >
> > > On 14. Dec 2023, at 10:18, Kwankyu Lee  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The PR
> > >
> > > https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/36861
> > >
> > > aims at switching from pdflatex to xelatex the latex engine to render 
> > > objects in pdf using the command like "view(objects)" as well as in 
> > > building the sage documentation.
> > >
> > > As xelatex natively supports Unicode, we removed lots of commands like
> > >
> > > \DeclareUnicodeCharacter{03B1}{\ensuremath{\alpha}}
> > >
> > > which were needed to support Unicode in pdflatex.
> > >
> > > We worry that some Unicode functionality was lost in this process, and so 
> > > we invite Unicode users to test with the PR.
> > >
> > > Here is the Binder link to where you can play around with xelatex-enabled 
> > > sage:
> > >
> > > https://mybinder.org/v2/gh/kwankyu/sage/use-xelatex-by-default-binder
> > >
> > > or you should build sage with the PR.
> > >
> > > If you find some Unicode-related defect not existent in sage 10.2, please 
> > > report it to the PR.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > --
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> > > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/ac185d29-e64b-42a3-a4b9-d25e2b31474cn%40googlegroups.com.
> >
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Policy for disputed PRs: discussion

[William Stein]

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 12:37 PM John H Palmieri 
wrote:

> To the extent that this specific PR is emblematic of a particular approach
> to Sage development (a flawed approach in Dima's view, if I understand
> right), then the whole approach should be discussed here. Probably many of
> these issues in Sage development have been discussed already, but it's
> probably time to revisit them, to see if we can reestablish a baseline
> level of consensus.
>

As a person who has been involved in Sage a long time, I just want to +1
John's remark that major issues involving the direction and approach to
Sage development, even if they have been discussed before, are definitely
something that should be discussed again.  The optimal choices for a Sage
can easily change as the world changes, and there are many relevant factors
to Sage's development that are massively different now than in the past.
 Examples: python is much more popular now than ever before; GPU's are
vastly more powerful now than before; GitHub with its amazing free CI
infrastructure exists; Conda exists; GCC isn't the only free C compiler;
WebAssembly exists, ...


>
> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:12:31 AM UTC-8 tobia...@gmx.de wrote:
>
>> At first I was very enthusiastic about this proposed policy, but after
>> thinking about this for a bit I'm no longer convinced this is a good idea.
>>
>> First of all, the policy sets out to solve the case "where there is a
>> general consensus, but one person (or a few people) disagree". In my
>> experience, this case is not a problem. All the examples mentioned so far
>> (and the few other examples I'm aware of), have usually one positive
>> reviewer and one negative review. This is not a general consensus. The
>> problem is more that a general consensus cannot be reached. Another aspect
>> of the issue is that usually only a very small group of 2 to 3 people is
>> involved in discussing the PR, which perhaps not surprisingly then more
>> easily results in a state where all arguments have been exchanged without
>> finding a solution satisfying everyone.
>> For example, with the proposed policy, Dima and me would have outvoted
>> Matthias in https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35403. But this PR was
>> largely improved by the discussion on the mailing list (that it is still
>> not clear how to proceed with this PR is another sad story).
>>
>> In light of this, I would like to propose to change the policy proposal
>> to an automatic system that draws more attention to the PR, with the hope
>> that new people bring new input and ideas, which then resolves the conflict
>> in a natural way. The proposal is something along the following: if a PR is
>> say a week in the "disputed state" as defined above by Kwankyu, both
>> parties write a short statement of why they think it should or should not
>> be merged, and this summary is then posted to the mailing list. Not to
>> start a voting, but to raise awareness and invite other devs to join the
>> discussion. Similar calls for PR reviews are not uncommon on the mailing
>> list, so I don't think it would annoy subscribers too much.
>>
>> Finally, I think Dima raises a very important point. Most of the
>> discussions in these "disputed PRs" are a result of a lack of a common
>> vision for the project and agreement on what projects to work on. It would
>> be immensely more productive to have a general discussion e.g. about how to
>> proceed with sage-the-distribution (replace it?, with what?, how to sunset
>> it? reduce it? enlarge it?). As an example, I think conda is a good
>> candidate to replace sage-the-distribution and thus naturally open PRs with
>> changes in that direction. But if you don't agree with this general
>> direction, it's easy to find these changes annoying. On the other hand, if
>> there would be an agreement that conda was a nice experiment that we don't
>> want to continue, then I'm happy to delete it completely. But instead of a
>> general direction, we have this situation where every developer is having
>> their own ideas and little projects that they are working on, and that are
>> bound to step on toes of others.
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 7:20:12 AM UTC+8 Kwankyu Lee wrote:
>>
>>> I think there needs to be a clear indication that a voting period is
>>> active (and when it closes). Perhaps we can use a PR label "s: voting" or
>>> "s: needs votes"?
>>>
>>>
>>> If we do not want to invent a new label, we may add "s: needs review",
>>> "s: needs work", "s:needs info" altogether to get attention.
>>>
>>> Then the voting period starts when the three labels are added.
>>>
>>> I suggest to end the voting when a week has passed after the last vote
>>> was casted.
>>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Poll: deprecate backslash operator

[William Stein]

Again, as the person who added it to Sage in the first place:  deprecate.

William

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 4:02 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> deprecate!
>
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 10:47 PM John H Palmieri  
> wrote:
> >
> > I asked this already but with a different subject heading, so people may 
> > have missed it.
> >
> > BackslashOperator is defined in "sage/misc/misc.py", and the preparser 
> > converts "A \ b" to the appropriate Python code. The docstring for 
> > BackslashOperator says "Implements Matlab-style backslash operator for 
> > solving systems A \ b".
> >
> > This is not used much: for matrices, matroids, and a tiny bit (at least in 
> > the Sage library) for binary trees. Should we deprecate it?
> >
> > Arguments for deprecation: the less we rely on the preparser, the better 
> > (at least as far as easing a transition between Python and Sage, for 
> > instance). The backslash operator is not in wide use in Sage. Currently its 
> > implementation breaks the standard Python use of "\" as a line-continuation 
> > marker.
> >
> > Arguments against deprecation: it provides a convenient shorthand, and 
> > people may be familiar with it from Matlab or other systems.
> >
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Re: [sage-devel] Questions about performance of SageMath, and of graph (algorithms) libraries

[William Stein]

> To give an explicit and specific example, I'm also interested in graph 
> algorithms, without calling libraries written in C/C++ or Julia, is it 
> possible to make graph algorithms faster  on very-large graphs with what's 
> mentioned above?
>

One relevant Python library is https://github.com/rapidsai/cugraph
which is a reimplementation of networkx on top of CUDA.   Presumably,
with an appropriate GPU, it provides massive speedups over networkx.
I haven't tried it out yet, but I plan to.

 -- William

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 5:52 AM Jing Guo  wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I contributed to algebraic geometry and dynamics parts of SageMath. During 
> the process, sometimes the tests could take some time to process, which I 
> guess is reasonable, since schemes and other objects can take long time to 
> compute.
>
> Today I saw a post [0] on JAX from Hacker News, in which currently the first 
> top comment mentions that other than ML research, JAX is also suitable for 
> scientific computing, as well as large-scale vectorized computations. From 
> the GitHub page [1] of JAX, it seems that it makes use of and improves upon 
> Autograd and XLA, hence very fast.
>
> I'm aware that SageMath is already fast for a lot of tasks, so I was 
> wondering would it be possible to make use similar tricks/techniques and/or 
> libraries that can make SageMath even faster?
>

> I found the following interesting comparisons of graph algorithms: 
> https://www.timlrx.com/blog/benchmark-of-popular-graph-network-packages-v2
>
> Thank you.
>
> [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37698740
> [1]: https://github.com/google/jax
>
> Jing
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: keywords in github

[William Stein]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 4:13 AM kcrisman  wrote:
> GitHub search is terrible, and I don't understand why.  I often (not on this 
> project) search for words (not just text strings) that I know I present 
> multiple times in the codebase, and get no results at all.  Sort of defeats 
> the point of a web-based interface if you end up needing to use a local 
> terminal anyway.

GitHub *CODE* search is extremely good, as of May 2023:

https://github.blog/2023-05-08-github-code-search-is-generally-available/

"Second, we’ve built a new code search engine, completely from
scratch. It is incredibly fast (about twice as fast as the old code
search), far more capable (supporting substring queries, regular
expressions, and symbol search), and understands code, putting the
most relevant results first."

GitHub *issue* search is weak, being some sort of relatively simple
index on the words, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.  I hope the
group that massively improved code search will do the same for issue
search.

 William




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Re: [sage-devel] Discussion and poll: should Sage Integers have a backslash operator?

[William Stein]

Hi,

I'm the guilty party who added \ to Sage notation in the first place,
and I would definitely vote to *remove* it.  I wish I had
never added it in the first place.   Nils has some very good points!

In retrospect, I wish we had a "fully supported" way of using Sage
entirely without the preparser, but that's another discussion.
It's important in the longterm for interoperability with the rest of
the Python ecosystem.  By "fully supported", I perhaps just
mean better documentation (e.g., a switch for the reference and other
docs that shows all examples in a way that works without
the preparser).

 -- William

On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 3:09 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:
>
> Okay, so maybe we should open this to other options: should we get rid of 
> preparsing "\" into "BackslashOperator"?


>
> For what it's worth, I removed the line defining `_backslash_` in 
> binary_tree.py and and I only say one doctest failure in any obvious places 
> (combinat and thematic_tutorials). So it's not even used much. Same for 
> matroids.
>
> I think that using \ to escape characters in strings still works, but 
> line-continuation does not: in Sage, these fail:
>
> sage: a = 3 + \
>
> and
>
> sage: \
>
> whereas in pure Python, such backslashes would be treated as 
> line-continuations. It should be possible to fix this while keeping the 
> current preparser behavior for "\" in the middle of a line. Or as Nils 
> proposes, getting rid of the current preparser behavior should also solve it.
>
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 2:44:19 PM UTC-7 Nils Bruin wrote:
>>
>> I'm quite strongly against because it collides with a well-established 
>> meaning of `\` in python: escape character. It's used to avoid command 
>> termination by newline in things like formulas (as "\> parsed as whitespace rather than command termination outside of brackets).
>>
>> I'm in fact rather shocked that `\` in sage already doesn't work as it's 
>> supposed to in python but instead gets substituted as "BackslashOperator()".
>>
>> Searching the codebase currently only shows "_backslash_" implemented on 
>> matroid, matrix, and binary_tree, so extinguishing it should be doable. We 
>> should definitely not entrench its use further.
>>
>> If you want to write your denominator first, you can already do ~2 * 3 . I 
>> think that's already sufficiently perverse that we don't need another way to 
>> spell that.
>> On Wednesday, 27 September 2023 at 12:16:57 UTC-7 David Joyner wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 2:32 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:

 The github issue #36060 (https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/36060) 
 proposes adding a backslash operator for Sage integers, so that "2 \ 3" 
 will return the same as "3 / 2". Do you support this?

>>>
>>> I'm not for or against. However, I don't see the problem that implementing 
>>> this "\" is going to solve. The ticket suggests that users will naturally 
>>> type 2\3 instead of 3/2, if I am reading between the lines correctly.
>>>

 BackslashOperator is defined in "sage/misc/misc.py", and the preparser 
 converts "A \ b" to the appropriate Python code. The docstring for 
 BackslashOperator says "Implements Matlab-style backslash operator for 
 solving systems A \ b".

 It seems pretty innocuous to me — in fact I don't care much either way — 
 but since Sage integers are so ubiquitous, it seems like a good idea to 
 ask before implementing it.

 --
 John

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[sage-devel] The EMS/ECMI Lanczos Prize for Mathematical Software

[William Stein]

Hi Sage Developers,

Jennifer Balakrishnan and I are members of a prize committee for a new
prize in "mathematical software", which the Europeans
have decided to fund.Here's the call for *self nominations*, and a link
to the webpage with more details.   I personally think
any significant component of Sage could be a reasonable candidate. It's
not like the Jenks Prize, where people
would nominate a massive project like "GAP" or "Mathematica" or something,
but I think more the sort of prize that might go
toward an important component of such a project.But honestly I don't
think anybody really knows what the prize will be until
the committee sees actual self nominations, and discusses them at length --
it's the first year after all.   Anyway, check it out
if you're interested, and also forward this to anybody else who might be a
good candidate.  Thanks! -- William

"One of the main ways mathematical advances have impact in science,
engineering, society, and industry is via their implementation in software.
In order to reward and recognise exceptional research in the development of
mathematical software, the European Mathematical Society (EMS) and the
European Consortium for Mathematics in Industry (ECMI) have decided to
establish the Lanczos Prize for Mathematical Software.

The Prize is to be awarded to a mathematician or scientist, or a group of
mathematicians and scientists, for the development of outstanding
mathematical software with important applications in mathematics, science,
engineering, society or industry.

Eligibility for the Prize is restricted to software whose source is
available to the general public for scrutiny. Commercial software meeting
this criterion is explicitly welcomed.

For full details of evaluation criteria and self-nomination procedure,
please see https://pefarrell.org/lanczos . The deadline for
self-nominations is 31 December 2023."

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Ask about the SageMath codebase using ChatGPT

[William Stein]

On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 2:56 AM Nils Bruin  wrote:
>
> On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 20:41:51 UTC+2 William Stein wrote:
>
> The point is that instead of using GPT's vague memory of what it might
> have seen, this instead uses the actual Sage source code, and mainly
> uses GPT to make sense of it.
>
>
> Given that only some select code fragments are included in the prompts, 
> wouldn't you still end up relying on GPT's vague, hallucination-prone general 
> memory to come up with a broader interpretation of the context provided? It 
> runs a real risk of just generating harder-to-spot errors.
>

This video is a good place to start: https://youtu.be/ZNW1XhT7qC4



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[sage-devel] Ask about the SageMath codebase using ChatGPT

['William Stein' via sage-devel]

Hi,

Summary: Try asking anything about the SageMath codebase at

https://wolfia.com/?projectId=ed005166-99f2-4e5e-8778-2dc49d4bf930

Details:

There's a project called "Wolfia" that does the following with a codebase:

"Wolfia Codex works by indexing an entire codebase. This is done by
first chunking each file into smaller code snippets. Those snippets
and other metadata are then persisted using vector embeddings.

When you ask a question about a codebase, that question is also
converted into a vector embedding. This is compared to all of the
available code and metadata to find the most relevant code.

The relevant code is then inlined as context to various prompts
(general questions, debugging errors, or documentation generation) and
sent to a Large Language Model to generate an answer to your question
based on the provided code."

I asked them to index the sagemath codebase and they did. You can try it here

https://wolfia.com/?projectId=ed005166-99f2-4e5e-8778-2dc49d4bf930

The point is that instead of using GPT's vague memory of what it might
have seen, this instead uses the actual Sage source code, and mainly
uses GPT to make sense of it.


-- Forwarded message -
From: Naren Manoharan 
Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 10:53 AM
Subject: Thank you for signing up and Welcome Wolfia!
To: 


Hey William,

Thanks for signing up and requesting us to index -
https://github.com/sagemath/sage

This is now available here -
https://wolfia.com/?projectId=ed005166-99f2-4e5e-8778-2dc49d4bf930

Feel free to grab time here if you have any questions or feedback -
https://calendly.com/naren-mano/wolfia

I would love to hear any feedback or thoughts that you have! I'm a big
fan of open core projects. Let me know if I can help in any way.

Best,
Naren
Co-Founder & CTO at Wolfia (YC S22)
(314) 562-8039 | LinkedIn | Twitter


-- 

Best Regards,
William Stein

CEO, SageMath, Inc.
https://cocalc.com

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Re: [sage-devel] Question about reading Sage documentation

[William Stein]

Hi,

Related Question: Is anybody interested in making it so
https://doc.sagemath.org/ hosts many different versions of the Sage
documentation instead of just the latest?

I only looked into this for a second, but readthedocs.io often has
many versions of docs for projects.   Also, I always appreciate how
postgresql's docs cover many, many versions, and make it easy to
switch around.Anyway, my point is just that "docs for multiple
versions of software" is a solved problem.

readthedocs since on their landing page: "Free docs hosting for open
source: We will host your documentation for free, forever. There are
no tricks. We help over 100,000 open source projects share their docs,
including a custom domain and theme." and then "Multiple versions: We
can host and build multiple versions of your docs so having a 1.0
version of your docs and a 2.0 version of your docs is as easy as
having a separate branch or tag in your version control system."

-- William


On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 3:33 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 10:46 PM Marc Culler  wrote:
> >
> > During our recent release of SnapPy we ran across an issue which is likely 
> > relevant to whether Sage's documentation is viewable on newer Ubuntu 
> > systems (such as 22.04).  The issue is that these newer Ubuntu systems ship 
> > Firefox as a snap.  A snap runs in a sandbox which restricts which files 
> > the snap can read.  Specifically, the Firefox snap can only read files in 
> > the user's home directory.
> >
> > This would suggest that a user who builds Sage in their home directory can 
> > use Firefox to view the documentation by using a URL with the file: scheme, 
> > but that if Sage is installed for all users on a multi-user system or if it 
> > is installed with apt then it will not be possible for users to read the 
> > locally installed documentation with Firefox.  (Of course they can use 
> > Firefox to read the online documentation for the current SageMath version 
> > but, on Ubuntu, that is essentially guaranteed not to be the version that 
> > is actually installed.)
> >
> > Have people run into this?
>
> I've run into the opposite sort of situation, where Sage is run in a
> container, and the browser can't get access to files there; so one
> needs
> to use HTTP to get across the boundary.
>
> >
> > - Marc
> >
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Re: [sage-devel] Voting: Block-scoped optional tag and the keyword

[William Stein]

I vote for (A)

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 7:40 PM Kwankyu Lee  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We spent six days for the preliminary discussion in the sage-devel thread
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/OUnoroIf0qc
>
> about choosing the keyword triggering block-scoped optional tag needed in
>
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/35750
>
> We now start the voting with the four candidates (A), (B), (C), (D). The
> voting will end 7th July 23:59 KST (Korea Standard Time). During the
> voting, discussions can continue in the linked places but please only your
> vote (and, if you will, short comment) to this thread.
>
> (A) "needs"
>
> sage: # needs sage.rings.number_field
> sage: QQbar(I)^2
> -1
> sage: QQbar(I)^10 # long time
> 1
>
> sage: # needs sage.rings.finite_rings
> sage: F = GF(7)
> sage: F(1) + QQbar(1)  # needs sage.rings.number_field
> ...
>
> (B) "requires"
>
> sage: # requires sage.rings.number_field
> sage: QQbar(I)^2
> -1
> sage: QQbar(I)^10  # long time
> 1
>
> sage: # requires sage.rings.finite_rings
> sage: F = GF(7)
> sage: F(1) + QQbar(1)  # requires sage.rings.number_field
> ...
>
> (C) "uses"
>
> sage: # uses sage.rings.number_field
> sage: QQbar(I)^2
> -1
> sage: QQbar(I)^10  # long time
> 1
>
> sage: # uses sage.rings.finite_rings
> sage: F = GF(7)
> sage: F(1) + QQbar(1)  # uses sage.rings.number_field
> ...
>
> (D) "standard"
>
> sage: # use standard feature - sage.rings.number_field
> sage: QQbar(I)^2
> -1
> sage: QQbar(I)^10  # long time
> 1
>
> sage: # use standard feature - sage.rings.finite_rings
> sage: F = GF(7)
> sage: F(1) + QQbar(1)  # standard - sage.rings.number_field
> ...
>
> Please just focus on the keyword. Don't worry about minor details or
> punctuations: the keyword would be recognized, the rest would be ignored
> noise, in the implementation.
>
> Thanks for your attention. Happy voting :-)
>
>
>
>
>
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> 
> .
>


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Re: [sage-devel] Modularization project: I. The goals

[William Stein]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 1:02 PM Michael Orlitzky 
wrote:

> The second issue is that WebAssembly doesn't actually solve the
> problems we have,


By "the problem we have" I guess maybe you mean "Sage is a lot of work to
maintain".The fundamental
and massive problem that I think SageMath has is that it is not part of
the  Python ecosystem,
by which I mean that there is no good way to do "pip install
sagemath-[foo]", in sufficient generality.

PROBLEM: SageMath is not part of the Python ecosystem.

DEFINITION: A piece of software is part of the Python ecosystem, if you can
do "pip install " on
basically the same platforms as the intersection of where you can install
scipy/numpy/matplotlib/pandas,
and with somewhat comparable resource usage (i.e., installing Sagemath
can't use 100x of the time/space of
the above, as that would be unfair).

There are many tools to help solve this problem, and WebAssembly is
definitely one of those tools, and at least
scipy/numpy/matplotlib/pandas are all well supported via WebAssembly these
days.

If this problem were solved, I think SageMath would likely have much more
usage, which would have
benefits related to other problems such as "Sage is a lot of work to
maintain".

William


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Re: [sage-devel] Modularization project: I. The goals

[William Stein]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 2:15 PM Michael Orlitzky 
wrote:

> On Thu, 2023-06-22 at 13:56 -0700, William Stein wrote:
> >
> > (5) provide a WebAssembly option
> >
> > WebAssembly is typically about half the speed as native code (at best),
> but
> > it is highly cross platform and self contained.   WebAssembly is
> difficult
> > mainly when you have to deal with the OS somehow (e.g., filesystem,
> > networking, etc.), and fortunately, a lot of the code in Sage is math
> > libraries that support a non-threaded mode, so are particularly easy to
> > port to WebAssembly.  A good example is Pari, which is one of "sage's
> > non-Python dependencies".
> >
>
> We always wind up back here. Are we building mathematics software, or
> signing on to run the world's most experimental linux distribution?
>

 WebAssembly is not an experimental linux distribution, and it has very
little overlap with linux distributions.  The WebAssembly ecosystem is
built from the ground up, primarily on the LLVM (and Rust) toolchain, and
an ecosystem of free software that is much more liberally licensed (and
smaller) than what is typically in Linux distributions.WebAssembly
is neither better nor worse than Linux distributions; instead it is a
different thing that solves different problems.

To pre-empt another potential misconception, WebAssembly is more helpful
for the needs of Sage than Java VM's because C/C++ can directly target
WebAssembly.

William

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Re: [sage-devel] Modularization project: I. The goals

[William Stein]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 1:44 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:
>
> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 12:49:29 PM UTC-7 Francesco Biscani wrote:
>
> On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 02:02, Matthias Koeppe  wrote:
>
> building binary wheels to be distributed on PyPI (in addition to the
source distributions) will be one of the key steps in order to make it very
user-friendly -- i.e., on par with doing "pip install scipy" on standard
platforms.
>
> It is normal practice of Python projects to create binary wheels and make
them available on PyPI. There is sufficient mainstream infrastructure (such
as https://github.com/pypa/cibuildwheel) that makes it easy.
>
>
> What is your plan for dealing with sage's non-Python dependencies?
>
> Binary wheels which bundle compiled non-Python dependencies using tools
such as auditwheel are extremely fragile, as there is nothing preventing
the user from installing a package which might bundle a different version
of the same library, resulting in hard-to-debug erratic runtime errors due
to ABI inconsistencies, symbol collisions, etc.
>
>
> That's of course a valid concern and a well known weakness of Python
packaging. In general, there is no mechanism to prevent users from shooting
themselves in the foot. We can, however:
> (1) keep the non-Python library dependencies of each of our distribution
packages minimal (that's one of the reasons why the plan includes
distribution packages that are keyed to a single library or set of
libraries, like sagemath-flint);
> (2) test to ensure consistency with the published binary wheels of
upstream packages (for example, gmpy2 for the gmp, mpfr, mpc libraries);
> (3) work with upstream projects so that they have a consistent process
for building wheel packages;
> (4) avoid/remove sage-specific library glue when there are already
dominant packages in the Python ecosystem that do this job (for example,
https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35368 replaces a custom Cython
interface to the cbc library by the upstream cylp library).

(5) provide a WebAssembly option

WebAssembly is typically about half the speed as native code (at best), but
it is highly cross platform and self contained.   WebAssembly is difficult
mainly when you have to deal with the OS somehow (e.g., filesystem,
networking, etc.), and fortunately, a lot of the code in Sage is math
libraries that support a non-threaded mode, so are particularly easy to
port to WebAssembly.  A good example is Pari, which is one of "sage's
non-Python dependencies".

The word "Web" in the name WebAssembly doesn't imply that it is only for
use in a web browser. It's used widely outside of browsers.One could
compile something like pari to webassembly, then make use of a popular
Python library like https://github.com/wasmerio/wasmer-python.  This
wasmer-python itself is an extension module to Python (written in Rust),
and the platforms it supports are listed here:

https://github.com/wasmerio/wasmer-python#supported-platforms

Incidentally, building Pari to WebAssembly is officially supported and
regularly tested by Bill Allombert.  Here's his demo:
https://pari.math.u-bordeaux.fr/gpexpwasm.html

 -- William


>
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Re: [sage-devel] Modularization project: I. The goals

[William Stein]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 6:49 PM 'Travis Scrimshaw' via sage-devel
 wrote:
>
> Hi William,
>That is interesting. Although my take on that is following Matthias's 
> proposal, they will just use one (or more) part of Sage as a Python library. 
> So if they switch, in effect they will still be dropping Sage.

If you really do see "using or more parts of Sage as a Python library"
as "dropping Sage", then I can see why you're so worried by the
modularization proposal.

> I don't see Sage as having its own custom language other than some small 
> syntactic sugar items (although I guess the ^ for ** is a big one for people 
> switching to Python),

There is a list of changes that the preparser introduces, and it's not
trivial, including the fact that all numerical literals are different
Overall, I think the preparser has a significant negative impact on
usability to Sage, because it cuts sage users off from a rich
ecosystem of tooling, e.g., automatic formatters like yapf and black,
the amazing  LSP tooling of Python like
https://github.com/python-lsp/python-lsp-server, and it makes the
stack traces that one sees when using Sage confusing.   I created the
preparser in the first place, but I can certainly appreciate that it
has a lot of negatives.  When I created it, I had no idea how much the
general Python ecosystem would grow, or how much value there would be
in participating in it.

> but it does sit within its own environment (which has its pros and cons IMO). 
> It is slightly annoying to bring everything into that environment, but I feel 
> that we can get a bit of a smoother user experience this way.
>
> I guess some of it comes down to what our target audience is. Even if we were 
> just a normal Python package and just do "from sage import *", I think Sage 
> would have a hard time competing against things like NumPy and matplotlib for 
> those first year courses.

matplotlib plotting api (at least pylab) is like matlab. Sage has a
huge amount to offer related to plotting that is complementary to
matplotlib, due to the mathematica like plotting api, and also rich
support for symbolic functions with fast evaluation.

> They are currently too broadly used in many fields/industries, so 
> universities will want to emphasize those. However, Sage is better equipped 
> to do the more specialized math courses and research based computations. I 
> don't think we have spent nearly enough time making our own set of teaching 
> tools to compete; mostly that has been split off/overtaken by the Jupyter 
> notebooks or in the libraries we build off of. I think we would need to have 
> more of an influence in industry jobs to bring more universities around to 
> saying "start Python, then do 'from sage.all import *'."
>

The point of making Sage part of the broader ecosystem is definitely
not to compete with numpy.  It is to provide value to more people, and
to make sage better benefit from a much larger ecosystem.   Also,
sympy is very popular and the sort of people that are interested in
installing sympy might also be interested in sage.  Sympy was
downloaded over 2 millions times in the last week from pypi:
https://pypistats.org/packages/sympy

One thing is that the GPL license might be a significant non-technical
issue blocking interest in Sage by the broader python ecosystem, where
everything else is under much more commercial friendly licenses.  That
ship has sailed (Sage will always be GPL'd), but it is something we
have to be realistic about.

> Perhaps this is the question that I am looking for an answer for, "What is 
> Sage (after modularization)?"

Sage would be part of the Python ecosystem.


>
> Best,
> Travis
>
>
> On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 8:23:01 AM UTC+9 William Stein wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sage Devs,
>>
>> As further motivation for this discussion of "Modularization project:
>> I. The goals", here is a quote from a discussion just now (with
>> permission) from Eric Deeds, who is the vice chair for Life Sciences
>> Math Courses and Professor of Integrative Biology and Physiology at
>> UCLA:
>>
>> "I think we may also switch to using Python with libraries, rather
>> than SageMath since Python is much more widely used."
>>
>> At UCLA they currently use SageMath (the full environment and
>> language) with about 3K students per year, and are considering
>> switching from Sage to normal Python, since sage is its own custom
>> language and environment, which isn't exactly the Python language,
>> etc. This is motivation for modularization of sage, since there is
>> substantial functionality in Sage, e.g., "plotting vector fields",
>> which they would like to use still. Of course, I did explain how it
>> is possible

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Modularation doctests

[William Stein]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 6:19 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 6:03:41 PM UTC-7 Travis Scrimshaw wrote:
>
> [...] Some of it can be fixed by changing the nomenclature "optional" to
> something else as that suggests something a user should *add* to the
> installation.
>
>
> Fine with me to introduce something like "# module - sage.groups" with
> identical semantics as "# optional - sage.groups".
> I'd suggest to take such discussions to
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/35750
>
>
> Perhaps this is the core question (for me): What do you expect most/casual
> users to download and install?
>
>
> It may be the wrong question because it seems to assume there is one
> population of such users.
>
> The population of current Sage users and developers can continue to
> install the monolithic Sage.
> Or, in the modularized terminology, they install the distribution
> "sagemath-standard".
>
> But the point why I have been working so intensely on the modularization
> project is to open parts of Sage to new populations of users and developers
> who are at home in the Python world. In particular those who find that they
> cannot use the monolithic Sage for their needs and therefore go looking for
> other projects that do not impose such constraints.
>

That could easily be an order of magnitude more users.

Have you worried at all about doctests/examples and the sage
preparser/global environment that is assumed in all the doctests?




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Re: [sage-devel] Modularization project: I. The goals

[William Stein]

Hi Sage Devs,

As further motivation for this discussion of "Modularization project:
I. The goals", here is a quote from a discussion just now (with
permission) from Eric Deeds, who is the vice chair for Life Sciences
Math Courses and Professor of Integrative Biology and Physiology at
UCLA:

"I think we may also switch to using Python with libraries, rather
than SageMath since Python is much more widely used."

At UCLA they currently use SageMath (the full environment and
language) with about 3K students per year, and are considering
switching from Sage to normal Python, since sage is its own custom
language and environment, which isn't exactly the Python language,
etc.This is motivation for modularization of sage, since there is
substantial functionality in Sage, e.g., "plotting vector fields",
which they would like to use still.   Of course, I did explain how it
is possible to use normal Python and import sage via "from sage.all
import ...".  However, properly supporting using Sage from Python like
any other Python citizen would be even better, and that's something
that would result from the project Matthias is spearheading.

 -- William

On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 4:54 PM Nathan Dunfield  wrote:
>
> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 2:58:18 PM UTC-4 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
> What parts of Sage does SnapPy use?
>
>
> Primarily the various rings/fields, including matrices over them and basic 
> linear algebra.  Specifically, interval arithmetic 
> (Real/ComplexIntervalField), polynomial rings (in several variables, 
> including Laurent polynomials), number fields, and the basic rings ZZ, QQ, 
> GF, RealField, ComplexField, etc.  Also, the ptolemy submodule uses Sage for 
> groebner_basis calculations.  I suspect most of what we use would be part of 
> any initial pip-installable version of the Sage library.  Right now, in the 
> stand-alone apps we backstop some of Sage's functionality (e.g. arbitrary 
> precision floats) with CyPari, which is itself an example of part of Sage 
> being modularized.
>
> Best,
>
> Nathan
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Why matrix powers are slower over Integers(p) than in ZZ?

[William Stein]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:15 AM David Roe  wrote:
>
> The problem is that Sage doesn't have a specialized type for integers mod N:
> sage: type(M3)
> 


More precisely, Sage doesn't have a specialized type for matrices over
integers mod N, for N *large*.  For smaller N it does, e.g.,

sage: p=next_prime(2**22)
sage: M3=Matrix(GF(p),n,na,l)
sage: type(M3)

sage: time a=M3**n
CPU times: user 96.5 ms, sys: 0 ns, total: 96.5 ms Wall time: 112 ms

It's obviously very important to be aware of the range of the rings
where matrices are extremely fast, if you're implementing a
multi-modular algorithm. I don't know what your application is though.

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Re: [sage-devel] Modularization project: I. The goals

[William Stein]

On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 6:53 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 6:20:03 PM UTC-7 Travis Scrimshaw wrote:
>
> My understanding of William's goal (please correct me if I am wrong) was
> to put everything together so nobody was trying to build a better wheel. To
> me, by splitting everything up into these small pieces, it seems contrary
> to that goal as how is someone suppose to know the piece they want already
> exists?
>
>
I didn't split things up into small pieces only because it is very, very
difficult, takes a lot of time, and I just didn't have the resources to do
it.   Other priorities like increasing doctest coverage were higher.
>From a software engineering perspective modularization is very valuable,
and if we had more resources we definitely would have divided Sage into
more modular blocks long ago.   I'm extremely glad that Matthias is working
on this difficult problem, and I appreciate that you (Travis) are putting
so much effort into clarifying what the heck is going on.

Sage is about building the car instead of reinventing the wheel.  However,
cars are built out of a large number of modular components (e.g., wheels,
carburetor, etc.), and it's good engineering to put a lot of effort into
properly building those components.   I'm absolutely blown away and
thrilled Sage is still around after almost 20 years, and that you guys are
actually doing that sort of work!

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Re: [sage-devel] Develop Sage inside GitHub Codespaces and/or other "cloud" options?

[William Stein]

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 7:13 AM Jing Guo  wrote:

> Thank you, Dima. I just learned that CoCalc also provides dev environment
> setup...
>

I can also give you a significant free upgrade on cocalc if you want to use
it for sage dev.


> I guess I will try GitPod first then.
>
> 在2023年6月3日星期六 UTC+2 14:26:01 写道：
>
>> On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 1:19 PM Jing Guo  wrote:
>> >
>> > I have not. I am exploring different options and weighing the
>> pros-and-cons.
>>
>> Another option is cocalc.com - although you'd rather pay for
>> subscription, to allow development environments.
>> Apart from this, I am only aware of GitPod and Codespaces.
>> Needless to say, you can also set up a sufficently big VM on a cloud
>> service and use it, but most probably you'd need to pay,
>> as Sage is resource-hungry.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > 在2023年6月3日星期六 UTC+2 14:01:00 写道：
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 12:16 PM Jing Guo  wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello everyone,
>> >> >
>> >> > Last year, I developed Sage inside Linux VM (Debian, to be specific)
>> on my old Macbook Pro, so the compiling time was not really good, or was
>> not what it could have been.
>> >> >
>> >> > Recently, I learn that there exist some services like GitHub's
>> Codespaces, which seems to provide develop-and-build environments on their
>> own machines(?). I was wondering that if anyone have had some experience
>> with these services. If so, do you have any recommendations for
>> alternatives other than the GitHub one? Or would you say that the GitHub
>> one is good enough? (Sage documentation seems to suggest GitPod)
>> >>
>> >> Have you tried GitPod?
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Thank you for your time.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jing
>> >> >
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[William Stein]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:53 AM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 9:14:14 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> already the discussion on these minor points has taken so much time that
> we could have instead done 10 or 20 PRs
>
>
> This line of reasoning has been used several times already, including by
> you.
>
> I have to point out that it is an invalid argumentative tactic:
>
> You are *assuming* that you are right, and then accuse me of blocking
> progress, and of wasting your time with the discussion; and then you demand
> that I give in, based on it.
>
> It is easy to make the mistake of overlooking that this is an invalid
> tactic, based on a circular reasoning fallacy.
>
> But if used deliberately, it is abusive behavior -- namely a form of
> bullying. As I wrote in
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35404#issuecomment-1563435455, "Sage
> is a mature project that is developed in the open and in which also all
> decision making takes place in the open. Users and developers who decide
> to engage with a project such as Sage know that this is always a long-term
> investment on their side. They need to be able to trust that the project
> makes decisions in a meaningful, responsible way, which reduces their
> perceived risk in making this investment."
>


+1. This is hard to disagree with.


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Re: [sage-devel] ping - please cast you vote: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[William Stein]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 2:15 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> So far we only had very few votes cast.

You might want to consider structuring the voting process more.  For
example, David Roe did a great job with this for the "move sage to
github"
vote, including a clear deadline, a thread where no discussion about
the vote is allowed (only a vote), etc.

William

>
> Once again, I think we should close ranks with the rest of scientific python 
> people and start following NEP 29.
> We have much more urgent stuff to work on - buggy Pynac, buggy Singular 
> interface, etc, than the Python 3.8 retrocomputing.
>
> Dima
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[William Stein]

On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 9:19 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> Please admit it, otherwise.  I don't see a way to continue a discussion with 
> you.

Can you please continue to engage, but view this as a public debate
for the benefit of all sage developers, rather than a discussion with
Matthias?  It's a debate.  It's the sort of heated discussion about
NEP 29 that I wish I could read, but (maybe) I can't because some
"powers that be" just decided on NEP 29 in private (which is their
right of course as volunteers and open source maintainers).


 -- William

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[William Stein]

On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 7:57 AM  wrote:
> > a) Sage has a dual role as a library ("project") and as a distribution. NEP
> > 29 was designed for projects, and not for software distributions.
>
> No, Sage is just a project, with lots of dependencies (way too many).
> It's not a software distribution in any way, it does not include
> essential tools to build it (e.g. no C/C++ compiler on macos).

Since I started the project in 2005 and until now Sage is definitely
both a big python library *and* a distribution.
I've given a million talks with a slide about how Sage is both a new
library of code and a distribution.   Being a
distribution was the whole reason people would consider using open
source software for math, instead of
sticking with Maple or Magma -- at least it was possible that they
could get it running on their computers.  Also,
it helped to make other open source math software beyond just sage
more accessible.

In the nearly two decades since starting Sage,  software distribution
and the Python
ecosystem have improved enough that there is hope that Sage could
transition to just
being a bunch of libraries, and all the distribution gets handled by some
third party distribution such as conda (etc.).   That's been discussed
with great optimism
recently on this list.

I hope soon Sage isn't a distribution, but right now it still is.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: Follow NEP 29: Recommended Python version

[William Stein]

Hi,

To help with people who want to make an informed decision, is there
any public discussion of the original NEP 29 proposal?

The only thing I could find was this post from Sebastian Berg, where he says at

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/numpy-discussion/2019-October/080128.html

"We propose formally accepting the NumPy enhancement proposal 29... If
there are no objections within a week it may be accepted.".
There's no public voting or anything, and there's exactly one quick
random response of "yes" in the thread.

In the actual NEP 29 proposal
https://numpy.org/neps/nep-0029-deprecation_policy.html there is a
section labeled "Discussion" and it is empty.
I would love to read about the discussions for/against NEP 29 from
when they decided on it in the first place!

There are follow up discussions, just like this one, by other
projects, e.g., for sympy here:
https://github.com/sympy/sympy/issues/21884, which
is still not decided, and has been under regular discussion for nearly
2 years.  There are many other similar conversations.  But they are
all about whether to align with numpy or not, and the core question of
why it is best to ignore what the official upstream python supports
isn't as relevant.

The original NEP 29 says "The Python release cadence increased in PEP
0602, [...] Thus, we do not expect our users to upgrade Python faster,
and our 42 month support window will cover the same portion of the
upstream support of any given Python release."I don't really know
what that means, but I have the impression that NEP 29 tried to very
rigidly define end of life by a specific timeline with no flexibility
for the potential that the official Python release timelines are not
rigid and fixed in stone forever, while simultaneously acknowledging
this conflict.  I would love to see the arguments for doing that,
which could be compelling.   I fully realize that this is something
that came from maintainers of open source software, and they were
probably feeling annoyed and burned out, and this NEP 29 may have
helped them keep their sanity.  But if that's the case, it's decided
in secret as far as I can tell.

 -- William

On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 6:34 AM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> Thanks, Tobias, for opening this vote thread. Here on sage-devel, this is a 
> much better setting than what you attempted in 
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35404#issuecomment-1504474945
>
> I am voting NO.
>
> There's a simple rationale:
>
> I. This proposed policy change does not solve any problem. There are no 
> problems whatsoever with how we have managed the support of Python versions 
> since 2020 (when it became possible to use system Python instead of only the 
> Python from our SPKG.)
>
> II. The proposed policy change creates new problems. Following this policy 
> would force us to drop support for a particular Python version at times when 
> it would be harmful for our project. Specifically, right now it would *force* 
> us to drop support for Python 3.8 and hence for using the default Python on 
> Ubuntu Linux 20.04 (an LTS release, with "End of Standard Support" April 2025 
> and "End Of Life" April 2030. It is the very point of LTS releases to provide 
> a stable software environment; so, yes, Python 3.8 is fully supported, and if 
> Python 3.8.x had bugs relevant for Sage, we would know about it because we 
> are testing.
>
> III. Our existing practice is to carefully consider and weigh various factors 
> that are relevant for the Sage project, rather than following a fixed 
> schedule that is set by an external, largely separate community. I briefly 
> explained what we do in 
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/j1cwbTU8aOU/m/x3qOdPB5BQAJ; but I'll 
> expand here on some important factors:
>
> a) Sage has a dual role as a library ("project") and as a distribution. NEP 
> 29 was designed for projects, and not for software distributions.
>
> b) In Sage, we only have one line of releases. Hence users who want any bug 
> fixes need to use our latest version. In contrast, just like Python itself, 
> many other projects have at least two separate branches: A branch on which 
> the cutting edge development takes place (new features etc.), and a branch 
> from which maintenance updates are made. For example, NumPy removed support 
> of Python 3.8 in their development branch earlier this year; but this in 
> preparation for the 1.25 release expected this summer. NumPy continued to 
> make maintenance releases on the 1.24 branch 
> (https://github.com/numpy/numpy/releases), and by policy, these maintenance 
> upgrades never drop the support of a previously supported version.
>
> c) NEP29 was designed for and is in use by a part of the scientific Python 
> community, to address the need to be able to use features of new Python 
> versions and features of NumPy/SciPy faster. This is important for many 
> projects that have NumPy/SciPy as their dependencies.
>
> d) In contrast, our uses of NumPy/SciPy in 

Re: [sage-devel] Re: What was/is/will be the purpose of maintaining the Sage distribution?

[William Stein]

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 1:21 PM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 5:49:50 AM UTC-7 William Stein wrote:
>
> To what extent does or could Conda with a little more work solve most
> of these problems? [...]
> I also think this section
> https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/installation/conda.html#using-conda-to-provide-all-dependencies-for-the-sage-library-experimental
> called "Using conda to provide all dependencies for the Sage library
> (experimental)" is pretty exciting!
>
>
> Yes, I think this mode of installation should be the future default of Sage 
> for developers.

AWESOME and thanks for the clarification!  I'm strongly supportive of
this, and I agree that
switching to GitHub from Trac was a good model for how to approach
this problem.

 -- William

>
> In any case, I think that migrating from "Sage the distribution" to
> solving a lot of the misc environment issues
> via conda would be very analogous to switching to Github, instead of
> maintaining our own issue tracker.
>
>
> Indeed, and just like in our successful transition to GitHub, a clean planned 
> switchover to the new model is the most effective solution.
>
> Attempts to do this gradually (such as the attempt of a soft transition from 
> Trac to GitLab by means of maintaining a Trac<->GitLab gateway) fail because 
> of the concave costs on the path from one end to the other.
>
> So, as I said, I would welcome a clear decision by the community to do so -- 
> with a target date or target release number.
>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What was/is/will be the purpose of maintaining the Sage distribution?

[William Stein]

Isuru,

Thanks for answering all my questions.  I just want to reiterate that
I'm thrilled with what you are doing and greatly appreciate it!

William

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:07 AM Isuru Fernando  wrote:
>
> > it fails with "└─ sage   is uninstallable because there are no viable 
> > options"
>
> We don't have a python 3.11 version of sage in conda yet. I started a PR 
> manually as the automatic update
> failed for some reason.
>
> > What is it doing that first time, and why is it silent?  It's very 
> > unnerving.
>
> macOS 10.15+ does some shady things when users request to run "untrusted" 
> applications. For eg:
>
> % clang hello.c
> % time ./a.out
> Hello world!
> ./a.out  0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 0.380 total
> % time ./a.out
> Hello world!
> ./a.out  0.00s user 0.00s system 62% cpu 0.006 total
>
> See https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/catalina-executables.html for a 
> possible explanation.
> Sage loads hundreds of dynamic libraries not all at the same time, so macOS 
> sends multiple requests
> to Apple servers.
>
> > and took 5.8GB disk instead of the 3GB disk of the Sage mac app).
>
> Yes, conda packages usually come with batteries included which means packages 
> come with their
> optional build time dependencies installed. That's usually not a big deal for 
> other packages, but
> Sage is special in that it has tons of dependencies.
>
> As usual, the biggest hurdle to making things work more seamlessly is 
> manpower.
> Most of the niche packages that sage depends on are maintained by me and 
> Julian and improvements
> to supporting conda in the sage build system are mostly Matthias and Tobias.
>
> Isuru
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 7:49 AM William Stein  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> To what extent does or could Conda with a little more work solve most
>> of these problems?   There are some notes below from me poking around,
>> and I'm very optimistic.
>>
>> I looked at
>>
>> https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/installation/conda.html
>>
>> and I would love some further discussion of that and whether with
>> enough help it could be viable.
>> For example, on my M1 mac I just tried what seems to me to be the most
>> obvious first thing to do
>> based on the instructions:
>>
>> (base) wstein@max ~ % mamba create -n sage sage python=3.11
>>
>> and it fails with "└─ sage   is uninstallable because there are no
>> viable options"
>> Obviously I'm going to nex try "mamba create -n sage sage", which works, but
>> that's not what our docs say to do.  Incidentally, it took about a
>> minute to download
>> and install everything (and took 5.8GB disk instead of the 3GB disk of
>> the Sage mac app).
>> Then a few minutes of me being confused if I should do
>> "mamba activate sage" or "conda activate sage", and finally I typed "sage" 
>> and
>> strangely it just shows nothing at all while it mysteriously takes
>> about a minute
>> for sage to start the first time (on my M1 max laptop with SSD).  Sage then
>> starts and works fine. Subsequent sage startups are very fast (e.g., 1 
>> second).
>> What is it doing that first time, and why is it silent?  It's very unnerving.
>>
>> I also think this section
>> https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/installation/conda.html#using-conda-to-provide-all-dependencies-for-the-sage-library-experimental
>> called "Using conda to provide all dependencies for the Sage library
>> (experimental)" is pretty exciting!
>>
>> For many years when I gave talks about Sage, I had a slide: "What is
>> Sage", with two points:
>>
>> 1. A distribution of open source math software
>> 2. A new library tying everything together
>>
>> I definitely only started 1 out of necessity because nothing existed
>> at the time.  My hope is that
>> at this point in time conda is good enough that maybe it could totally
>> solve 1, and we can focus on 2?
>>
>> In any case, I think that migrating from "Sage the distribution" to
>> solving a lot of the misc environment issues
>> via conda would be very analogous to switching to Github, instead of
>> maintaining our own issue tracker.
>> I.e., if you want the latest version of sage on Ubuntu 22.04 (say),
>> then our recommendation is "use conda",
>> and we put effort into making Sage-via-conda extremely good.  If you
>> want some random version of sage,
>> then you can use system packages.
>>
>> For CoCalc.com, the key thin

Re: [sage-devel] Re: What was/is/will be the purpose of maintaining the Sage distribution?

[William Stein]

Hi,

To what extent does or could Conda with a little more work solve most
of these problems?   There are some notes below from me poking around,
and I'm very optimistic.

I looked at

https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/installation/conda.html

and I would love some further discussion of that and whether with
enough help it could be viable.
For example, on my M1 mac I just tried what seems to me to be the most
obvious first thing to do
based on the instructions:

(base) wstein@max ~ % mamba create -n sage sage python=3.11

and it fails with "└─ sage   is uninstallable because there are no
viable options"
Obviously I'm going to nex try "mamba create -n sage sage", which works, but
that's not what our docs say to do.  Incidentally, it took about a
minute to download
and install everything (and took 5.8GB disk instead of the 3GB disk of
the Sage mac app).
Then a few minutes of me being confused if I should do
"mamba activate sage" or "conda activate sage", and finally I typed "sage" and
strangely it just shows nothing at all while it mysteriously takes
about a minute
for sage to start the first time (on my M1 max laptop with SSD).  Sage then
starts and works fine. Subsequent sage startups are very fast (e.g., 1 second).
What is it doing that first time, and why is it silent?  It's very unnerving.

I also think this section
https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/installation/conda.html#using-conda-to-provide-all-dependencies-for-the-sage-library-experimental
called "Using conda to provide all dependencies for the Sage library
(experimental)" is pretty exciting!

For many years when I gave talks about Sage, I had a slide: "What is
Sage", with two points:

1. A distribution of open source math software
2. A new library tying everything together

I definitely only started 1 out of necessity because nothing existed
at the time.  My hope is that
at this point in time conda is good enough that maybe it could totally
solve 1, and we can focus on 2?

In any case, I think that migrating from "Sage the distribution" to
solving a lot of the misc environment issues
via conda would be very analogous to switching to Github, instead of
maintaining our own issue tracker.
I.e., if you want the latest version of sage on Ubuntu 22.04 (say),
then our recommendation is "use conda",
and we put effort into making Sage-via-conda extremely good.  If you
want some random version of sage,
then you can use system packages.

For CoCalc.com, the key thing we need is a way to have self-contained
stable installations of sage-9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.4, 9.5, 9.6, 9.7, 9.8,
10.0, etc. all on the same Ubuntu system, all at once, and have them
not get screwed up when we do normal system updates. Doing major
Ubuntu version updates (e.g., 20.04 --> 22.04) doesn't have to be
supported.
My impression is that conda potentially solves this problem at least
as well as sage-the-distribution does right now.

 -- William

PS Thanks again to the people who put so much work into packaging sage
and its dependencies for conda!

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 5:12 AM kcrisman  wrote:
>
>
> As of today, it is plausible that such situations still exist.
>
>
> I am wondering about such situations existing in less-resourced areas 
> globally (which would include less-resourced parts of developed countries).  
> One big advantage of Sage-the-distribution historically was the ability to 
> make USB drives that had the complete thing (maybe also a Linux VM?) on them, 
> from which one could boot.
>
> It strikes me that many arguments for removing the distribution along these 
> lines (not the developer side, which is also important) are akin to those 
> arguments which assume one should "just" use a remote option for Sage at all 
> times.  Yes, that has been seriously made on multiple occasions, though 
> usually not on this list.  But even "post-pandemic" there are still plenty of 
> reliable high-speed internet deserts even where I live on the US East Coast, 
> much less around the world.  I wouldn't want to use CoCalc without a fairly 
> new computer.
>
> Likewise, there are plenty of people using 5-10 year old computers who, in 
> principle, could be afforded Sage access, but for our continued upgrading.  
> (Again, see below for the developer side.)  Arguments about how they should 
> upgrade or face security issues are fine, but in practice (whether for 
> financial or other reasons) this is not how humans respond to those 
> incentives, and presumably at least some of them might benefit from Sage.  A 
> lot of the paradigm discussed on this list (but not all, for sure) focuses SO 
> MUCH on people who have access to fairly recent technology, and that simply 
> doesn't obtain.
>
> As an example, how old of a Windows computer could one install the current 
> Sage on?  I mean from scratch - not necessarily from source - using WSL, 
> which I guess is now the main supported way to do so?  What about the Cygwin 
> installer - does it still exist in older versions on sagemath.org 

Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Sage 10.0.rc0 released

[William Stein]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 7:59 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 7:37:17 PM UTC-7 Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>
> On 2023-04-26 18:38:32, Matthias Koeppe wrote:
> > Michael, do you happen to have a suggestion what version range of PARI
> the
> > Sage library should be supporting?
>
> PARI doesn't strictly follow semver, so whatever I say here, PARI will
> eventually make a fool of me.
>
>
> I agree, it's a hard question.
>
>
> Still, I think a fair goal is to support
> the latest "point" release series, currently 2.15.x.
>
>
> Just as a data point, eliminating the spkg and only supporting system PARI
> 2.15.x would have the effect to eliminate support of:
> - all versions of Ubuntu except for 23.04 (lunar);
> - all openSUSE Leap versions, leaving only the rolling distro (Tumbleweed).
> Source: https://repology.org/project/pari/versions
>
>

What if you want to install on other Ubuntu versions, but via
mamba/conda/whatever?


My comment is about the approach we take to version compatibility
> moreso than a hard rule to be followed. For example,
>
> * We should not be outlawing minor versions of packages for bugs
> that have been fixed upstream,
> * We should not be reproducing in sagelib any tests that are part
> of an upstream package,
> * We should avoid string equality where possible in sagelib tests,
>
> In other words,
>
> * We should not be going out of our way to break compatibility.
>
> That alone will go quite far, and whatever it gets us is acceptable.
>
>
> All this sounds very reasonable, of course.
>
> A problem that remains is how we would manage user expectations when they
> report a bug to us that turns out to be an upstream bug in a package that
> we no longer carry as an spkg: We would no longer be able to say "it's
> fixed in Sage 10.7" but instead would have to say "not the fault of Sage;
> just go upgrade your Linux distro to the unstable release / ask your distro
> to backport the bugfix / compile the package yourself from source".
>
>
>
>
> --
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> .
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Sage 10.0.rc0 released

[William Stein]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 12:27 PM David Roe  wrote:
>
> I'm sorry to have prompted another flame war, but please keep the tone polite 
> Dima and Matthias.  I know that you're both frustrated at this issue being 
> unresolved, but it's not appropriate to have a fight like this that goes to 
> 2570 different people's inboxes, with frequent emails sniping at each other.
>
> I do think it would be valuable for other people on this list to offer some 
> thoughts on whether Sage should prioritize reducing the number of 
> foundational packages we offer in the short term (as Dima is advocating) or 
> keeping them to help maintain support (as Matthias is advocating).  That 
> becomes less possible if the tone on this thread gets out of hand.
> David
>

Thanks David.  I always posted a reminder about the code of conduct.
Also a reminder that https://groups.google.com/g/sage-flame is an
appropriate place for unrestrained debate.

Regarding your question David, I really like the way it is phrased,
since whether or not to support
packages is a function of the resources we have, which really is a
function of the community
and their availability to work on things.It's not something
intrinsic to our project.  For example,
conda can support a massive number of packages, partly because they
have a massive community
that is stepping up to do it.


>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 3:18 PM Matthias Koeppe  
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 12:14:26 PM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>> This discussion happened 2 years ago
>>
>>
>> That's correct, and you have not brought forward any new points.
>>
>>
>> --
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>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Sage 10.0.rc0 released

[William Stein]

Hi Everybody,

Just a reminder of
https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/develop/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

In particular,

1. Be friendly and patient.
2. Be welcoming.
3. Be considerate.
4. Be respectful and polite.

As a community, we've agreed that these are very reasonable ways to
conduct ourselves on this list.

 -- William



On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 12:20 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 8:18 PM Matthias Koeppe
>  wrote:
> >
> > On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 12:14:26 PM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> >
> > This discussion happened 2 years ago
> >
> >
> > That's correct, and you have not brought forward any new points.
>
> Godverdomme, this was about GFORTRAN!!!
> WE ARE TAKLKING ABOUT PYTHON!!! PYTHON!!!
>
> Learn to read.
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "sage-devel" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/27c5cb9d-76da-48d8-a7e9-defa8453a6cen%40googlegroups.com.
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Sage 10.0.rc0 released

[William Stein]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:40 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:

> > For a long time it was very important for getting a functional Sage on 
> > MacOS; is that no longer the case?
> Sorry, I don't understand.
>
> Noone I know builds Python (the only package that needs openssl) from source.
> For a long time it has been perfectly possible on macOS to either use
> Python from python.org, or Python from Homebrew,
> or Python3 from Conda.
> If you really need to build Python from source on macOS, fine, build
> it yourself and install it in /usr/local.
>
> We should remove python3 spkg, and gcc spkg too, for the same reason.
> It's a ballast slowing down
> Sage's progress.

When I started Sage in 2004, it was entirely possible that we would
make some interesting changes to Python itself, e.g., make the
preparser into some core functionality of the parser, make integers
much faster, etc.  None of that ever happened at all, and in
retrospect, since Python got so big, I'm glad it didn't (but see [1]).
The potential for such development was one of the reasons for building
Python from source, but I think that ship sailed long ago.  Also, the
Python community has really grown a lot in terms of supporting
installing python anywhere.  So I'm definitely not against Dima's
suggestion.

---

[1] Incidentally, I worked a lot last year on a Python parser written
in a subset of Python and hosted on a Javascript runtime, and for that
I added several of the preparser features in the "from future import
..." style of Python.

https://github.com/sagemathinc/cowasm/blob/main/python/pylang/README.md#math-extensions-like-the-sage-preparser


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Why SR('expression') fail on some but not others?

[William Stein]

I put a few remarks related to this in a notebook:

https://cocalc.com/wstein/support/SR-and-strings

Basically, converting to from strings via str hardly works anywhere in
Sage and that is by design, following the lead of Magma instead of
Pari.  Instead Pickle is the thing that mostly works for that mapping,
but is ugly. Then lament no json...

William

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Re: Re: [sage-devel] ChatGPT is an expert in SageMath too

[William Stein]

Hi,

There's is a discussion right now on HN about LLM's trained on code

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35657982

One of the comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35658118
points out that most of the non-GPL super permissive licenses require
explicit attribution when creating derived works. If the output of an
LLM is a derived work (and not just some fair use of that input), then
there is legally nothing particularly special about GPL in the context
of training LLM's.  That I think successfully undercuts my point in
starting this thread.

 -- William

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 1:47 AM Georgi Guninski  wrote:
>
> I know I am minority, but I recommend not to use github (owned by m$).
>
> IMHO m$ are evil and technically incompetent.
> They buy stuff and later spoil it.
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] ChatGPT is an expert in SageMath too

[William Stein]

Hi,

I don't know whether or not ChatGPT is trained on the source code of
SageMath, but one of the biggest publicly available training sets of
code is described here:  https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.15533
In that training set, they explicitly remove any GPL'd code (e.g.,
SageMath): "Permissive license dataset: We develop a dataset of source
code with only permissive licenses, i.e., with minimal restrictions on
how the software can be copied, modified, and redistributed. We first
provide the list of licenses which we classified as permissive in
Appendix A. Note that we intentionally exclude copyleft licenses like
GPL, as this community has strongly expressed the concern of machine
learning models and inferred outputs violating the terms of their
licenses Kuhn (2022)."

As things unfold in the years to come with people trying to use LLM's
in the context of mathematical software, our academic community's
choice of license could explain why LLM's output code that's much more
like Sympy (say) than SageMath's, and perhaps why LLM's are not as
good at using Sage.

William

P.S.In case anybody is curious, Sage was originally GPL'd because it
is a derived work of Pari, and Pari is GPL'd.  I made the choice to
use Pari heavily in the implementation of Sage, rather than starting
from scratch.  I asked Henri Cohen why he GPL'd Pari and he told me
that Richard Stallman personally "strongly encouraged" him to do so,
because Pari depends on GNU Readline, and GNU Readline is GPL'd.
Despite anything mentioned above, the GPL still seems like the right
license for Sage, given that all the other competitors (Magma,
Mathematica, etc.) are much more restrictive in their licenses.

On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 9:13 PM Kwankyu Lee  wrote:
>
>
> ... The syntactical correction Curve(x^3+y^3-x-y+1,P) still doesn't work 
> because we have an affine equation and are specifying an unrelated projective 
> space.
>
>
> That is the most serious defect in the answer. I missed that.
>
> I think the conclusion should be that ChatGPT pretends to be a SageMath 
> expert with great confidence but .. gasp ... isn't!
>
>
> and also I was not careful enough to claim that.
>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] RealField isn't doing it right

[William Stein]

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 7:35 PM aw  wrote:
> [...] You and your people have a *very strong* tendency to nitpick details 
> instead of staying focused on the big picture.

You're right, respecting details is indeed a very strong
characteristic of professional mathematicians.

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Re: [sage-devel] RealField isn't doing it right

[William Stein]

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 5:15 PM aw  wrote:
> In high-precision environments like RealField(1000), Sage should *definitely* 
> use the math semantics, because physics people, or engineers, or any other 
> applied type folks, have zero use for 1000 bits of precision in anything that 
> they do.

Search for the word "physics" here:   https://www.mpfr.org/pub.html

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Re: [sage-devel] RealField isn't doing it right

[William Stein]

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 9:11 PM Nils Bruin  wrote:

>
> It's certainly reasonable to not call a floating point field "RealField".
> C and python don't even do that: they call such elements floats. I'm less
> sure whether such a RealFloats field should be any less prominent than it
> is now. Plus the whole renaming transition would be super painful.
>

 I called it "RealField" in Sage for compatibility with Magma:

https://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/handbook/text/253

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Re: [sage-devel] modular form basis

[William Stein]

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 9:13 AM Ralf Hemmecke  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> is there any particular reason why the term 12/5*q is not subtracted
> away by the first basis element?

The answer is that M_2(Gamma0(11)) is represented internally as the
direct sum of the cuspidal and eisenstein subspaces. In particular,
notice that

M.eisenstein_submodule().basis()

is

[ 1 + 12/5*q + 36/5*q^2 + 48/5*q^3 + 84/5*q^4 + 72/5*q^5 + 144/5*q^6 +
96/5*q^7 + 36*q^8 + 156/5*q^9 + 216/5*q^10 + 12/5*q^11 + 336/5*q^12 +
168/5*q^13 + 288/5*q^14 + 288/5*q^15 + 372/5*q^16 + 216/5*q^17 +
468/5*q^18 + 48*q^19 + O(q^20) ]

If by default "ModularForms(Gamma0(11), 2, prec=20).basis()" were
required to be in reduced row echelon form,
then a lot of things would be much more difficult...

In addition to  M.echelon_basis() which John pointed out, there's also
M.integral_basis(), which is a HNF basis:

M.integral_basis()

[ 1 + 12*q^2 + 12*q^3 + 12*q^4 + 12*q^5 + 24*q^6 + 24*q^7 + 36*q^8 +
36*q^9 + 48*q^10 + 72*q^12 + 24*q^13 + 48*q^14 + 60*q^15 + 84*q^16 +
48*q^17 + 84*q^18 + 48*q^19 + O(q^20), q - 2*q^2 - q^3 + 2*q^4 + q^5 +
2*q^6 - 2*q^7 - 2*q^9 - 2*q^10 + q^11 - 2*q^12 + 4*q^13 + 4*q^14 -
q^15 - 4*q^16 - 2*q^17 + 4*q^18 + O(q^20) ]



>
> Ralf
>
> ┌┐
> │ SageMath version 9.6, Release Date: 2022-05-15 │
> │ Using Python 3.10.6. Type "help()" for help.   │
> └┘
> sage: ModularForms(Gamma0(11), 2, prec=20).basis()
> [
> q - 2*q^2 - q^3 + 2*q^4 + q^5 + 2*q^6 - 2*q^7 - 2*q^9 - 2*q^10 + q^11 -
> 2*q^12 + 4*q^13 + 4*q^14 - q^15 - 4*q^16 - 2*q^17 + 4*q^18 + O(q^20),
> 1 + 12/5*q + 36/5*q^2 + 48/5*q^3 + 84/5*q^4 + 72/5*q^5 + 144/5*q^6 +
> 96/5*q^7 + 36*q^8 + 156/5*q^9 + 216/5*q^10 + 12/5*q^11 + 336/5*q^12 +
> 168/5*q^13 + 288/5*q^14 + 288/5*q^15 + 372/5*q^16 + 216/5*q^17 +
> 468/5*q^18 + 48*q^19 + O(q^20)
> ]
>
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Re: [sage-devel] RealField isn't doing it right

[William Stein]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 4:25 PM Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2023-04-15 at 18:20 -0400, David Roe wrote:
> > I agree with William that you should refrain from insulting the Sage
> > developers, especially when the underlying problem comes from your
> > misunderstanding of how floating point arithmetic works.
>
> I was given this response many times, and I think it's condescending
> (no offense).

I agree with you that it's best to assume that the original poster "aw" does
understand the semantics of floating point numbers in Sage, and just doesn't
like them.  I think you also understand the semantics of floating point in
Sage as well, and you also don't like them.

We are definitely not changing these semantics.  If you have questions about
how to use Sage's various floating point models as they are to solve problems,
we would be happy to answer them.   However, insulting the sage developers
and demanding that the semantics change is not appropriate for this
mailing list.
Such comments would be appropriate  and welcome at

https://groups.google.com/g/sage-flame

 -- William


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Re: [sage-devel] RealField isn't doing it right

[William Stein]

https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/develop/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 2:39 PM aw  wrote:
>
> Guys, this is serious. Any dev who starts reading this, give it a hard look, 
> ok?
>
> Below I give some examples where Sage give the wrong answer, with no error 
> message or any indication that the answer is not correct.
>
> Probably the single most important rule in software is, never ever give users 
> the wrong answer.
>
> Either give them the right answer, or give them no answer along with an error 
> message explaining why the right answer can't be given.
>
> Why the heck is Sage not following this rule?
>
> After finding these examples, it's hard for me to trust any answer I get from 
> Sage, unless I check it against other software, like Wolfram Alpha.
>
> One possible response to my examples below is, I am not using Sage functions 
> in an approved way.
>
> But that's not a valid objection. A user should be able to send any argument 
> to a function, and it's the responsibility of the programmer to make sure one 
> of two things happen:
>
> (a) the user is given the right answer;
> or (b) the user is given no answer and an error message.
>
> Sage is failing to do this.
>
> On to the examples.
>
> Example 1, straight from the sage RealField docs:
>
> RealField(120)(RR(13/10))
> 1.3000444089209850062616
>
> RR has default 53 bits, so this is really:
>
> RealField(120)(RealField(53)(13/10))
>
> Here's the same thing with less precision to make it clear that this has 
> nothing to do with Python's single or double precision floats:
>
> RealField(18)(RealField(12)(13/10)) (A)
>
> What should happen here is this:
> RealField(12) should eval 13/10 as 1.30
> RealField(12) should pass to RealField(18) only those digits, 1.30
> RealField(18) should then zero-pad that to 18 bits, yielding 1.3000
>
> Here's what sage does:
>
> RealField(18)(RealField(12)(13/10))
> 1.2998
>
> Let's check the types of all args:
>
> type(13/10)
> sage.rings.rational.Rational
>
> type(18)# type(12) is the same
> sage.rings.integer.Integer
>
> All args to RealField in (A) are Sage types.
> Hence everything in the calculation (A) is under the complete control of Sage.
> Hence Sage could easily do the right thing here.
>
> But it doesn't.
>
> You might say, this is an artificial example, passing the output of one 
> RealField to another in a non-sanctioned way.
> Ok then, let's just pass arguments to one RealField.
> Can we get it to give wrong answers?
>
> Yes, very easily, by passing it an arithmetic expression.
>
> Sending in arithmetic expressions should be totally fine, because the 
> RealField docs say: "This is a binding for the MPFR arbitrary-precision 
> floating point library."
>
> The purpose of MPFR is to be able to do basic arithmetic in arbitrary 
> precision.
> Basic arithmetic means any expression using the following ops (and maybe some 
> others): +, -, *, /, ^
>
> So let's pass an arithmetic expression to RealField.
> The whole point of MPFR is to always give the right answer for the value of 
> such an expression, for any expression and any requested precision.
> The docs say RealField is a binding for MPFR.
> So RealField should only give right answers.
> But in fact it sometimes gives the wrong answer.
>
> Here's one:
>
> RealField(200)(2*1.1)
> 2.20017763568394002504646778106689453125
>
> Let's check the types:
>
> type(2)
> 
>
> type(1.1)
> 
>
> type(2*1.1)
> 
>
> Here the expression 2*1.1 is not only a Sage type, it's a Sage type designed 
> to work with MPFR. Hence passing 2*1.1 to RealField should yield the right 
> answer.
>
> But it doesn't.
>
> How the heck was this not noticed earlier?
>
> I think I have a workaround for expressions such as 2*1.1: enter the 1.1 as a 
> sage rational, 11/10:
>
> RealField(200)(2*11/10)
> 2.20
>
> That works for this expression, but I worry that with other kinds of 
> expression I could still get wrong answers.
>
> By the way, in this example i used numbers where we know the answer in 
> advance, so it's easy to see that the answer given is wrong.
>
> Here's a very similar example where we don't know the answer in advance:
>
> RealField(200)(e^(1.1))
> 3.004166023946433394797850269242189824581146240234375000
>
> RealField(200)(e^(11/10))
> 3.0041660239464331120584079535886723932826810260162727621298
>
> Wolfram Alpha says the second one is correct.
>
> Let's check the types for the wrong one:
>
> type(e)
> 
>
> type(1.1)
> 
>
> type(e^(1.1))
> 
>
> All are sage types, and the expression as a whole is a sage type designed to 
> work with MPFR. Sage should give the right answer here, but it doesn't.
>
> I like the idea of Sage. And I know the Sage devs must be solid 
> professionals. But giving users junk answers makes Sage look bush-league.
>
> The MPFR devs would never allow their library to give a junk answer.
>
> Wolfram would never allow 

[sage-devel] Sage developer's guide

['William Stein' via sage-devel]

Hi Sage Developers,

Somebody was asking me about doing Sage development, and I pointed
them to the sage developer's guide [1].  However, looking at it for a
moment was worrisome, since it starts with a big scary banner saying:
"Warning: Sage development is scheduled to move to GitHub in February
2023. The exact date will be announced in
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel. After the transition, some
parts of this guide (especially those related with the Sage Trac
server) will become obsolete and be updated according to the new
workflow on GitHub. See our transition guide from Trac to GitHub for
the preliminary version of the workflow."

It seems like that banne could be updated a bit, now that it is April.
I do realize that there's still a lot being hashed out about the exact
workflow...

William

[1] https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/developer/index.html

-- 

Best Regards,
William Stein

CEO, SageMath, Inc.
https://cocalc.com

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: where is rpy2

[William Stein]

+1

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:40 PM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 12:52:00 PM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> I propose to introduce the notion of semistandard package.
>
>
>  "Semistandard" sounds good to me.
>
> We have a few more packages that are of this type:
> - sqlite is only installed if we build our own copy of python3
> - openssl is only installed if we build our own copy of python3 or curl
>
> And some packages can probably be promoted from "optional" to "semistandard".
> - jupymake - should probably be installed when a system polymake is found
> - more to come as part of the modularization.
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: where is rpy2

[William Stein]

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 12:13 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, 18:57 Matthias Koeppe,  wrote:
>>
>> On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 9:29:32 AM UTC-7 William Stein wrote:
>>
>> It seems to me that these days there are three
>> types of packages:
>>
>>
>> ...at least...
>>
>>
>> - definitely installed in every copy of sage. An example is pari.
>
>
> pari can well come from the system - assuming it passes various ./configure 
> tests.
>
> I would not call this "installed".

When I introduced the terminology "standard package" 18 years ago (?)
it meant "definitely installed in every copy of sage." which is why
https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/developer/packaging.html says:
"standard packages are built by default."

I'm fine with the definition changing, but the docs need to  be
updated to reflect that.  They were updated to reflect just the
requirement that the package is available (not necessarily built):
"For a few packages, configure checks whether they are available from
the system, in which case the build of those packages is skipped."
That's great.

I'm just pointing out that rpy2 doesn't fit into these definitions
right now, which is confusing.


>
>>
>> - there's an attempt to install them when sage gets built, if
>> conditions are right: an example is rpy2
>> - they are definitely not installed when sage is initially built:
>> example include various specialized databases.
>>
>>
>> That's right.
>
>
> you can force non-standard packages being built by passing the relevant 
> option to ./configure
>
> e.g.
>
>./configure --enable-fricas=yes
>
> will result in an attempt to build fricas during the initial build (or the 
> subsequent build, whichever is applicable)
>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: where is rpy2

[William Stein]

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 11:53 AM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> rpy2 is built by default when a suitable system R is detected.

Thanks. This is exactly my understanding.

The Sage docs https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/developer/packaging.html define
standard, optional and experimental packages.  The definition of
standard package is:

"standard packages are built by default.  For a few packages,
configure checks whether they are available from the system, in which
case the build of those packages is skipped.".

This is not true of rpy2, so it is a bug that rpy2 is a standard package.

Probably rpy2 should be completely removed from sage, and people
should pip install it instead.  However, instructions to do that could
be provided if anybody touches the "r." interface...

 -- William




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[sage-devel] where is rpy2

[William Stein]

Hi,

According to

https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/spkg/rpy2.html#spkg-rpy2

the rpy2 package is a "standard package".  However, I just checked
multiple builds in various places of sage-9.8 and also the latest
master branch, and rpy2 is not installed.

I can see why rpy2 isn't installed.  It's because for sage-9.8 R was
deprecated from being a standard package to an optional package, and
of course there is no way to install rpy2 if a sufficiently library
usable R isn't installed.

1. What is the definition these days of a standard package?Is a
standard package "A package that might or might not be installed,
depending on what happens to be available when ./configure was run?"
 A standard package used to be a package that was definitely installed
in every copy of Sage. It seems to me that these days there are three
types of packages:

 - definitely installed in every copy of sage.  An example is pari.
 - there's an attempt to install them when sage gets built, if
conditions are right:  an example is rpy2
 - they are definitely not installed when sage is initially built:
example include various specialized databases.

2. A possible suggestion for improving the error messages.Just
doing "sage -i rpy2" doesn't work, because that complains that R isn't
installable:

[...]
[r-none] If the system package is installed, ./configure will check
whether it can be used.
[r-none]
[r-none]
[r-none] Error: r is a dummy package and
[r-none] cannot be installed using the Sage distribution.

OK, I realize I need to follow the directions above (about ubuntu),
and then I get r dev installed.   I guess I know enough to
actually run ./configure again, and then I do "sage -i rpy2", and then
that does a LOT, e.g., spending hour(s) building gmp, mpfr, etc.
(why? because I ran ./configure?).

Why does it say "If the system package is installed, ./configure will
check whether it can be used."? This isn't
user friendly.  It should say: "Ensure that the system R package is
installed, then run ./configure. After you do that, you can then
run 'sage -i rpy2'."

MOTIVATION: For every version of Sage up to and including 9.7, users
could use rpy2, which lots of little bits of sage evidently
now rely on,e g., "r.mean([3,7,9])".By deprecating the R
package entirely, thus making rpy2 into a sudo-standard package
in version 9.8, using the r interface is just broken, since it uses rpy2.

My guess is that rpy2 and all code that depends on R should be made
optional packages and marked #optional in the docs, etc.,
and it's just a bug that hasn't been done?   Alternatively, we have to
make it so that building Sage depends on R being installed, or
we have to change the definition of "standard" package.

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Re: [sage-devel] Github Discussions

[William Stein]

Oscar,

Many thanks for sharing this from the *developer* point of view.  I'm very
much thinking about this problem entirely from the end-user-of-sage point
of view (i.e., me right now).Did you also encounter problems using
discussions with sympy from the end user point of view?

Glancing at the sympy Discussions at

https://github.com/sympy/sympy/discussions

I had a positive impression, since there's a lot of activity, with
questions clearly marked "answered", etc.
So thanks for sharing how painful that can be from the dev side.

 -- William

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 10:10 AM Oscar Benjamin
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 at 16:47, William Stein  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Sage Devs,
> >
> > Any thoughts about enabling "Github Discussions" for SageMath on
> > Github now?
>
> I just want to share my experience of this feature being used in the
> SymPy GitHub repo because I personally think that enabling it was a
> mistake. I dislike the interface of the discussions feature but more
> importantly I think it's organisationally bad to use GitHub for end
> user support in a large project that has many users. In a smaller
> project that e.g. doesn't have a mailing list I can see how it might
> be useful for situations where someone wants to talk to the developers
> without having to create an open issue but I don't think that
> necessarily carries over to larger projects.
>
> Following and responding to notifications on a busy repo is time
> consuming and can be mentally draining. The pool of people who will do
> that is smaller than the pool of people who would subscribe to e.g. a
> mailing list. For example I am not going to subscribe to notifications
> from the SageMath repo but I am quite happy to skim messages on this
> mailing list and only occasionally respond to anything. The basic
> problem with GitHub's discussions feature is that it places the burden
> of user support on to the smaller group of people who are actively
> engaging with the repo. Those people are already dealing with the
> large number of incoming issues, bugs, feature requests, pull
> requests, new contributors etc and it is important not to make that
> any more difficult or time consuming than it needs to be.
>
> > This can be used much like ask.sagemath.org or sage-support, but is
> > more modern and easy to moderate.It's also very easy
> > to move a github issue to be a discussion, when somebody opens an
> > issue that really should just be a request for help.
>
> This is the one significant advantage of the discussions feature.
> Closing an issue as invalid is not nice for the person who opened the
> issue. Being able to transfer the issue to a discussion instead comes
> across less harshly.
>
> However from the perspective of the maintainer who would close an
> invalid issue the difficult part is deciding whether something is an
> issue or not. The fact that you can turn the issue into a discussion
> does not make it any less draining to have to decide (often with
> incomplete information) whether or not an issue is valid or even
> whether the person opening the issue intended for it to be a bug
> report rather than just a request for help.
>
> Personally I prefer for user support and discussion fora to be clearly
> separated from GitHub and to happen somewhere where there is a larger
> pool of people who can engage more recreationally rather than feeling
> any burden to respond. Those fora can triage problems around user
> confusion before it gets to the point of opening a GitHub issue.
> Ideally what would otherwise be invalid issues would be filtered out
> before they reach GitHub.
>
> If the desire is to have something more modern and easy to moderate
> than a mailing list then my suggestion would be to use Discourse
> forums.
>
> --
> Oscar
>
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[sage-devel] Github Discussions

[William Stein]

Hi Sage Devs,

Any thoughts about enabling "Github Discussions" for SageMath on
Github now?  The tab is already visible, but somebody has
to I think fully enable it and do some configuration.

https://github.com/sagemath/sage/discussions/landing

This can be used much like ask.sagemath.org or sage-support, but is
more modern and easy to moderate.It's also very easy
to move a github issue to be a discussion, when somebody opens an
issue that really should just be a request for help.

I was motivated to mention this, because somebody just asked CoCalc
support some question about computing in group
rings, and I have no idea what the answer is, but I also don't love
pointing them at sage-support or ask.sagemath, since I
know there can be a lot of friction.  Pointing them at
https://github.com/sagemath/sage/discussions/ would be nice.

Some examples of use of Github discussions by other projects:

- Next js (a react framework) uses it very heavily --
https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
- CoCalc -- we use it a bit:  https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/discussions

Thoughts?

William

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[William Stein]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2022 at 8:45 AM John H Palmieri  wrote:
> Hi William,
> There is nothing in our department's bylaws to provide for a delay of voting, 
> but we have a chair and we have an executive committee, and the hope is that 
> they care not only about the particular issue at hand, but also about the 
> atmosphere in the department. So if someone asked for a delay, probably the 
> executive committee would consider it and make a decision. That would not 
> likely result in a vote on whether to delay, but just a decision to delay the 
> vote, and probably to schedule some meetings for discussion.
>   John

Thanks!  So it's basically this model that you already described:
"Alternatively, we have a steering committee that steps in to make
decisions, for example about the timing of votes, when there is
disagreement."   Having an elected steering committee is common in
other software projects I pay attention to (e.g., Python and Jupyter).

 -- William


>
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 9:18:04 PM UTC-7 wst...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 8:09 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:
>> >
>> > The main response I saw to the requests for a slower process was from 
>> > David Roe, saying, "Finally, since we're just voting on trac vs github I 
>> > don't think there's a need to draw out the discussion until October 1, and 
>> > several people (William and Dima) have made arguments for making a 
>> > decision more quickly." I find this rather dismissive of the views of 
>> > those who requested a more deliberate process. It would be good to have a 
>> > procedure for determining timing for votes, something other than one 
>> > person just making a decision.
>> >
>> > As a starting point:
>> >
>> > 1. Anyone can call for a vote, and the vote should last at least a week: 
>> > it is not reasonable to ask for votes more quickly than that, barring an 
>> > emergency that demands very fast action. We call for votes all the time, 
>> > e.g. recent decisions about formatting options for Sage documentation, and 
>> > there is no reason to make the overall procedure more complicated.
>> > 2. Anyone can then request a delay or an extension of the vote. The 
>> > default response should be to accept the delay/extension: "yes, the vote 
>> > will now end on ...". If people believe that the delay is unreasonable 
>> > ("we need to delay this vote by 25 years") or if they have other reasons 
>> > to object, then we can hold a one-week vote, no delays allowed, to decide 
>> > whether to accept the delay or not.
>> >
>> > The second point is flawed: what to do if there are multiple requests to 
>> > delay? Maybe see if the people making the requests can come to a consensus 
>> > about the time. If not, then vote on the shortest proposed delay? The 
>> > longest one? The average? (We have a reasonably healthy community, but all 
>> > the same, I don't want to create a rule that can be abused: one person 
>> > asks for a ridiculous delay, then we hold a one-week vote that fails, then 
>> > another person, or even the same person, asks for another ridiculous 
>> > delay, etc.)
>> >
>> > Alternatively, we have a steering committee that steps in to make 
>> > decisions, for example about the timing of votes, when there is 
>> > disagreement.
>> >
>> > Other options?
>>
>> What happens in an academic department (e.g., UW)? For example, what
>> if there is an important department vote about to happen that is
>> brought to the faculty by a committee, and a faculty member states at
>> the faculty meeting: "we should delay this vote for 2 weeks to respect
>> people with a busy schedule, to allow a constructive debate, and to
>> explore all possibilities". Is there a procedure for delaying votes
>> in faculty meetings?
>>
>> I'm just asking because bylaws tend to spell out in detail the answers
>> to questions like this, and it's nice to have a concrete example.
>>
>> I tried searching for examples of delaying votes in US politics, and
>> in Summer 2020, Trump tried very hard to delay the US presidential
>> election:
>>
>> https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+delay+election
>>
>> >
>> > --
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
>> > (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
>> >> schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
>> >> to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
>> >> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>> >>
>> >> Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
>> >> be respected.
>> >>
>> >> Ciao,
>> >> Thierry
>> >>
>> >> [1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
>> >> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ
>> >>
>> >> [2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
>> >> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ
>> >>
>> >> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in 

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[William Stein]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 8:09 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:
>
> The main response I saw to the requests for a slower process was from David 
> Roe, saying, "Finally, since we're just voting on trac vs github I don't 
> think there's a need to draw out the discussion until October 1, and several 
> people (William and Dima) have made arguments for making a decision more 
> quickly." I find this rather dismissive of the views of those who requested a 
> more deliberate process. It would be good to have a procedure for determining 
> timing for votes, something other than one person just making a decision.
>
> As a starting point:
>
> 1. Anyone can call for a vote, and the vote should last at least a week: it 
> is not reasonable to ask for votes more quickly than that, barring an 
> emergency that demands very fast action. We call for votes all the time, e.g. 
> recent decisions about formatting options for Sage documentation, and there 
> is no reason to make the overall procedure more complicated.
> 2. Anyone can then request a delay or an extension of the vote. The default 
> response should be to accept the delay/extension: "yes, the vote will now end 
> on ...". If people believe that the delay is unreasonable ("we need to delay 
> this vote by 25 years") or if they have other reasons to object, then we can 
> hold a one-week vote, no delays allowed, to decide whether to accept the 
> delay or not.
>
> The second point is flawed: what to do if there are multiple requests to 
> delay? Maybe see if the people making the requests can come to a consensus 
> about the time. If not, then vote on the shortest proposed delay? The longest 
> one? The average? (We have a reasonably healthy community, but all the same, 
> I don't want to create a rule that can be abused: one person asks for a 
> ridiculous delay, then we hold a one-week vote that fails, then another 
> person, or even the same person, asks for another ridiculous delay, etc.)
>
> Alternatively, we have a steering committee that steps in to make decisions, 
> for example about the timing of votes, when there is disagreement.
>
> Other options?

What happens in an academic department (e.g., UW)?  For example, what
if there is an important department vote about to happen that is
brought to the faculty by a committee, and a faculty member states at
the faculty meeting: "we should delay this vote for 2 weeks to respect
people with a busy schedule, to allow a constructive debate, and to
explore all possibilities".  Is there a procedure for delaying votes
in faculty meetings?

I'm just asking because bylaws tend to spell out in detail the answers
to questions like this, and it's nice to have a concrete example.

I tried searching for examples of delaying votes in US politics, and
in Summer 2020, Trump tried very hard to delay the US presidential
election:

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+delay+election

>
> --
> John
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
>> schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
>> to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
>> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>>
>> Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
>> be respected.
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Thierry
>>
>> [1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ
>>
>> [2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ
>>
>> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>>
>> [4] Sébastien : "The urgency of short term issues does not imply the
>> urgency of long term issues"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/B19uBWUJCAAJ
>>
>> [5] Travis : "First off, we need to slow down significantly as we do not
>> have an general clear consensus about doing this move."
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/E3_sU2Y6CAAJ
>>
>> [6] Thierry : "one month break is a bare minimum."
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/STo_AT9qFgAJ
>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[William Stein]

> several developers asked for delays

The only governance mechanism we have for decision making in the Sage
project currently is a vote of the entire dev community.   Thus there
is no way to consider your request to delay voting aside from having
even more voting.

 -- William


On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 3:11 AM Thierry  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
> schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
> to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>
> Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
> be respected.
>
> Ciao,
> Thierry
>
> [1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ
>
> [2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ
>
> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>
> [4] Sébastien : "The urgency of short term issues does not imply the
> urgency of long term issues"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/B19uBWUJCAAJ
>
> [5] Travis : "First off, we need to slow down significantly as we do not
> have an general clear consensus about doing this move."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/E3_sU2Y6CAAJ
>
> [6] Thierry : "one month break is a bare minimum."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/STo_AT9qFgAJ
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Invitation: Weekly 30-minute Sage developer calls on Jitsi

[William Stein]

For what it is worth, I think Matthias plans to use a time slot just for a
couple weeks then change it.

For Jupyter they have maybe 6 or so weekly or biweekly meetings on special
subtopics and people go to maybe 2 or 3.   Maybe we could consider
something more  like that?   What are some good ideas for topics?

On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 2:10 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:

> 20:15 UK (i.e. 21:15 Paris) is quite inconvenient slot for me, as that's
> close to bedtime for my son.
>
> On Mon, 3 Oct 2022, 20:45 Matthias Koeppe, 
> wrote:
>
>> I was running late today from another meeting -- glad I still caught you
>> when you were online!
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>> On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 12:22:56 PM UTC-7 Eric Gourgoulhon wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Le lundi 3 octobre 2022 à 00:32:52 UTC+2, Matthias Koeppe a écrit :
>>>
>>>> New times:
>>>>
>>>> Calls for Europe / Africa / Americas:
>>>>
>>>> Monday noon, 12:15pm San Francisco
>>>> Monday afternoon, 3:15pm New York
>>>> Monday evening, 21:15 Paris
>>>> https://meet.jit.si/VibrantTribesBearEver
>>>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://meet.jit.si/VibrantTribesBearEver=D=calendar=2=AOvVaw2I2cJbOmwbNtXT8T3M3_pu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Could there be some error on the time zone or schedule?  It is 21:20 in
>>> Paris and there is nobody in the room
>>>
>>> Eric.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [sage-devel] DISCUSS: move Sage development to Github

[William Stein]

On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 9:15 AM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 4:57:36 AM UTC-7 kcrisman wrote:
>>>
>>> On another note, I realize that the comment I made 6 years ago after 
>>> Volker's comment is still relevant:
>>
>> "There's also the non-trivial (though not blocker, probably) issue that 
>> zillions of links to trac.sagemath.org would instantly be obsolete"
>>
>> How long do we want to have Trac still exist, but be read-only?  Obviously 
>> we wouldn't take it down right away, but presumably eventually we would need 
>> to do so.
>
>
> The solutions for this are discussed in the ticket description of 
> https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/30363 - we can keep the external links to 
> trac.sagemath.org working by means of redirects to the equivalent github 
> issues.
>

More precisely, we could download a complete static copy of all of
trac to static html (e.g., using recursive wget), then publish that
static html using github pages, and modify our DNS to point there.
The result would be free, fast, robust, and can be there indefinitely,
and would provide a read-only copy of all the pages on trac.We
could also automatically edit each static page to have a clear banner
stating that it is an archive, and include a link to the corresponding
GitHub issue.

I'm not volunteering to do that.  I'm just saying it is technically
possible, and probably not that hard.

William

>
>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: is it intentional that prod does not stop when it hits 0?

[William Stein]

Note also that prod(range(1,n)) does *NOT* just multiple 1 times 2
times 3 in order.   Instead, it uses a tree approach so that the
multiplications involve objects with more balanced sizes, which is
much faster, e.g., for large integers multiplyling n*m with n and m
having similar sizes can overall be massively better than n * m with n
large and m tiny...

On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 2:54 PM kcrisman  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what you were expecting.  It does return 0, but it does so after 
> all the print statements are done.  Remember, your "test" function just 
> returns the input, so the map function just returns a list (well, a map 
> object, but ...) and then we prod everything in the list.  But that happens 
> AFTER you have done the map on test, and that requires printing out all of 
> them.  The prod can't finish up until the entire list has been processed via 
> map and the function "test".  I could imagine an alternate implementation of 
> prod which checked each time whether zero had been produced in an 
> intermediate step, but that doesn't appear to be in the code in "prod??".
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:39:03 AM UTC-4 axio...@yahoo.de wrote:
>>
>> sage: def test(n):
>> : print("n:", n)
>> : return n
>> :
>> sage: l = [2,3,5,0,7,11,17,19]
>> sage: prod(map(test, l))
>> n: 2
>> n: 3
>> n: 5
>> n: 0
>> n: 7
>> n: 11
>> n: 17
>> n: 19
>> 0
>> I expected that it would return 0 once we multiply with 0.
>>
>> Martin
>
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Re: [sage-devel] VOTE: move Sage development to Github

[William Stein]

+1 for Github

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:23 AM David Roe  wrote:
>
> Dear Sage developers,
> Following extensive discussion, both recently (prompted by issues upgrading 
> the trac server) and over the last decade, we are calling a vote on switching 
> Sage development from Trac to Github.  We've created a summary of the pros 
> and cons of each system, a description of the development model to be used on 
> github, and a trac ticket for coordinating work on the transition.  More work 
> will need to be done to carry out the actual transition once voting is 
> complete.
>
> The voting will last until noon Eastern time (16:00 UTC) on Wednesday, 
> October 5.  Please use this thread only for sending votes, to make it easier 
> to count them afterward; there is a parallel thread where you can make 
> arguments in favor of either system.
>
> Finally, I will close with a plea to be involved in this vote and discussion 
> even if you are not a core Sage developer.  By definition, core Sage 
> developers have become comfortable with trac, and I think that one of the 
> major arguments in favor of github is that it will help bring in new 
> contributors who are not familiar with Sage's development workfow.  Anyone 
> who has ever contributed to the Sage code base or who maintains a Sage user 
> package is welcome to vote.
> David
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

Hi,

We could just declare that "You may vote if you have contributed to
the source code of Sage" and leave it at that.  The idea is to give
people a criteria for voting.  Perhaps this is a bad criteria, e.g.,
it excludes our webmaster (Harald Schilly), since he's done a lot to
support Sage, but I don't think he's contributed code to the library
-- at least I didn't find him in Dima's list from GitHub.

William

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 11:00 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 5:42 PM David Roe  wrote:
> >
> > When I did this a few weeks ago there were only a couple hundred.  I think 
> > it's only showing people who have a github account linked to the email they 
> > used on the commit (which may be lower than normal, since grad students and 
> > postdocs may have used academic email accounts that are no longer active).
>
> I've run gh (not as insane as curl IMHO) to get the data:
>
> $ gh api -H "Accept: application/vnd.github.v3+json" -X GET
> /repos/sagemath/sage/contributors -F per_page=100 -F page=13 -F anon=1
>
> and got, I guess, about 1300 contributors (quite a few by the same
> person, but different emails etc),
> see attachment
> >
> > I'm sure we could get a full list of author names from git.
> > David
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 12:35 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 5:30 PM William Stein  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 4:09 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 11:51 AM kcrisman  wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >>> "Subscribed to sage-devel" might not be a good criteria. For 
> >> > > >>> example,
> >> > > >>> Harald Schilly has been the webmaster of Sage since 2007 and likely
> >> > > >>> cares about this switch since it can impact him, but I don't think 
> >> > > >>> he
> >> > > >>> reads sage-devel.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If we're going to talk about previous practice, I can't remember 
> >> > > > there ever being any criterion other than the sage-devel one.  (And 
> >> > > > I think a few votes have been received by proxy in the past.)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I still can't find a thread about rules for voting, but I did find 
> >> > > > this presumably relevant one, on another at-least-as controversial 
> >> > > > topic (but please let's not revisit past controversies): So I'll 
> >> > > > withdraw my 2/3 proposal, but suggest we do keep sage-devel as the 
> >> > > > criterion.  
> >> > > > https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/dR3_eyIUyac/m/LyALpiLcHuQJ  
> >> > > > Quoting from William (8 years ago!!!)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > This is a simple majority vote for ...
> >> > > >  I will close voting on Monday at midnight PST. (If the vote
> >> > > > is an exact tie, then that means "No" - there must be a simple
> >> > > > majority for this to pass.) Any member of the sage-devel mailing
> >> > > > list may vote or abstain. I will delete any messages in this thread
> >> > > > that is not a vote -- if you want to make further arguments for or
> >> > > > against, do so elsewhere.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > And from 
> >> > > > https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/dR3_eyIUyac/m/Ooek9-z_oQgJ
> >> > > > I kept the voting simple and
> >> > > > consistent with how we've done all past votes, rather than using a
> >> > > > more complicated voting system, since I didn't want to make even the
> >> > > > voting process itself contentious.
> >> > >
> >> > > Given the tensions, I'd be more careful here. We're really not too
> >> > > interested in opinions of random subscribers to sage-devel
> >> > > (I don't have enough rights to see who's there).
> >> > >
> >> > > We can instead use
> >> > > https://github.com/sagemath/sage/graphs/contributors
> >> >
> >> > Does that only show the top 100?  Is there any way to see more?
> >>
> >> Sure, see 
> >> https://docs.github.com/en/rest/repos/repos#list-repository-contributors

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 4:09 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 11:51 AM kcrisman  wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> "Subscribed to sage-devel" might not be a good criteria. For example,
> >>> Harald Schilly has been the webmaster of Sage since 2007 and likely
> >>> cares about this switch since it can impact him, but I don't think he
> >>> reads sage-devel.
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> > If we're going to talk about previous practice, I can't remember there ever 
> > being any criterion other than the sage-devel one.  (And I think a few 
> > votes have been received by proxy in the past.)
> >
> > I still can't find a thread about rules for voting, but I did find this 
> > presumably relevant one, on another at-least-as controversial topic (but 
> > please let's not revisit past controversies): So I'll withdraw my 2/3 
> > proposal, but suggest we do keep sage-devel as the criterion.  
> > https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/dR3_eyIUyac/m/LyALpiLcHuQJ  
> > Quoting from William (8 years ago!!!)
> >
> > This is a simple majority vote for ...
> >  I will close voting on Monday at midnight PST. (If the vote
> > is an exact tie, then that means "No" - there must be a simple
> > majority for this to pass.) Any member of the sage-devel mailing
> > list may vote or abstain. I will delete any messages in this thread
> > that is not a vote -- if you want to make further arguments for or
> > against, do so elsewhere.
> >
> > And from https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/dR3_eyIUyac/m/Ooek9-z_oQgJ
> > I kept the voting simple and
> > consistent with how we've done all past votes, rather than using a
> > more complicated voting system, since I didn't want to make even the
> > voting process itself contentious.
>
> Given the tensions, I'd be more careful here. We're really not too
> interested in opinions of random subscribers to sage-devel
> (I don't have enough rights to see who's there).
>
> We can instead use
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/graphs/contributors

Does that only show the top 100?  Is there any way to see more?
There's been far more than 100 contributors to sage...

> (by the way, by looking at this list I found that johanrosenkilde
> works for GitHub now :-))
>
> Dima
>
>
>
>
> >
> > --
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> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/ea60ae31-33c6-45d3-86d5-4ca14169bcf0n%40googlegroups.com.
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

Hi,

Should we specify anything about who is eligible to vote?  At least
some guidance might be useful, since you are strongly encouraging
people to be involved, and some people might wonder whether or not
they should vote.

"Subscribed to sage-devel" might not be a good criteria. For example,
Harald Schilly has been the webmaster of Sage since 2007 and likely
cares about this switch since it can impact him, but I don't think he
reads sage-devel.

 -- William

On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 2:10 PM David Roe  wrote:
>
> Given that we've had far more interest in Github than Gitlab, and that it's a 
> lot easier to transfer from Github to Gitlab later, I agree with Dima that 
> the vote should be on just the question of whether to move to Github.  
> Moreover, John Palmieri made a convincing argument (to me at least) that we 
> should not add in an extra 2/3 requirement for this vote specifically (the 
> requirement for such a threshold should be part of a larger discussion on 
> Sage's governance).  Finally, since we're just voting on trac vs github I 
> don't think there's a need to draw out the discussion until October 1, and 
> several people (William and Dima) have made arguments for making a decision 
> more quickly.  Of course, discussion can continue in parallel with voting, 
> and people are able to change their votes if they're convinced to do so.
>
> We still need to finish the comparison of trac and github, the description of 
> a github Sage workflow, and draft an email announcing a vote.  I propose 
> sending versions of the following emails to sage-devel on Wednesday (two days 
> from now), including starting a new discussion thread (since the title of 
> this one no longer holds: we are not discussing an incremental move to github 
> anymore).
> David
>
>
> Dear Sage developers,
> Following extensive discussion, both recently (prompted by issues upgrading 
> the trac server) and over the last decade, we are calling a vote on switching 
> Sage development from Trac to Github.  We've created a summary of the pros 
> and cons of each system, a description of the development model to be used on 
> github, and a trac ticket for coordinating work on the transition..  More 
> work will need to be done to carry out the actual transition once voting is 
> complete.
>
> The voting will last until noon Eastern time on Wednesday, October 5.  Please 
> use this thread only for sending votes, to make it easier to count them 
> afterward; there is a parallel thread where you can make arguments in favor 
> of either system.  Finally, I will close with a plea to be involved in this 
> vote and discussion even if you are not a core Sage developer.  By 
> definition, core Sage developers have become comfortable with trac, and I 
> think that one of the major arguments in favor of github is that it will help 
> bring in new contributors who are not familiar with Sage's development 
> workfow.
>
>
> Dear Sage developers,
> As announced in a parallel thread, we are voting to move Sage development 
> from Trac to Github.  Several of us have created a wiki page attempting to 
> summarize arguments in favor of each system, and this thread can serve as a 
> space for people to make clear their own reasoning for favoring one option 
> over the other.  This discussion has gotten heated at times, so remember to 
> be considerate, respectful and polite: we are all aiming to make Sage better.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 10:47 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2022, 15:35 William Stein,  wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is a 3-minute section of a PyCon 2022 keynote by the steering
>>> council discussing migration of CPython to GitHub:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/m2R5shF1pLc?t=535
>>>
>>> In particular, they talk about how much effort went into the
>>> migration, and just how difficult it was, and how GitHub was
>>> directly involved with supporting their effort.  It took nearly 7
>>> years (!) from when the plan was first created in 2015:
>>>
>>> https://peps.python.org/pep-0512/
>>>
>>> This Python PEP is itself pretty interesting, e.g., it outlines why
>>> they chose GitHub or GitLab.
>>
>>
>> I had a quick look, and noted that in this PEP they as well moved from 
>> mercurial to git, set up a number of bots (probably not needed for us), set 
>> up testing infrastructure.
>> All of this, except bots, is already done for us
>>
>> And in few places they described features they needed to put extra effort 
>> in, while they are now in GitHub already.
>> So it's much less work for us.
>>
>> Dima
>>
>>>
>>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

Here is a 3-minute section of a PyCon 2022 keynote by the steering
council discussing migration of CPython to GitHub:

https://youtu.be/m2R5shF1pLc?t=535

In particular, they talk about how much effort went into the
migration, and just how difficult it was, and how GitHub was
directly involved with supporting their effort.  It took nearly 7
years (!) from when the plan was first created in 2015:

https://peps.python.org/pep-0512/

This Python PEP is itself pretty interesting, e.g., it outlines why
they chose GitHub or GitLab.

I hope our migration process doesn't take 7 years like Python's.  For
comparison,
as of today there are 60,730 Python issues and 34,557 sagetrac issues,
so the size
of  the relevant data sets is comparable.   So to anybody who are
working on this
herculean effort, my hat is off to you.

William


On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 12:51 AM Marc Mezzarobba  wrote:
>
> Matthias Koeppe wrote:
> > This is great question, thanks for the pointer to this GitLab.com URL.
> > I've updated
> >
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/Github-vs-Gitlab-vs-trac#in-favor-of-gitlab
> > based on it.
>
> Additionally, here in France at least, many universities and research
> institutes already host their own (internal or semi-public) gitlab
> instance.
>
> --
> Marc
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 10:27 AM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 10:14:26 AM UTC-7 Nils Bruin wrote:
>>
>> On Saturday, 17 September 2022 at 17:55:10 UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The conversion of the Trac tickets to GitHub Issues/PRs only works in one 
>>> shot. Incrementally syncing updates from Trac to existing issues is not 
>>> possible.
>>
>>
>> Migration *to* GH is one thing, but as has been pointed out, we should have 
>> an exit strategy as well, or at least an idea of a roadmap to move from 
>> github to elsewhere. The code itself is trivial to move: it's a git repo. 
>> However, as has been shown in the past, the discussions (now in tickets on 
>> trac, but if moved in issues and PRs) can sometimes be of immense value as 
>> well. I suppose that if moving from GH to GL is as trivial as claimed 
>> before, GH must have a way of exporting issues and PRs.
>>
>> Would someone be able to give an informed assessment or a feasibility study 
>> of extracting issues and PRs from GH? How searchable are they and how do 
>> cross-links survive an extraction (also important for trac-to-GH)? 
>> Presently, trac is fairly searchable due to its own search functions plus 
>> its general indexing by google's search engine. Hopefully we'd have 
>> something at least matching that for GH.
>>
>> Perhaps part of our setup should also be that we "backup" this part of our 
>> github setup: githubs own infrastructure is of course excellently resilient 
>> against technological problems but a new failure mode is introduced due to 
>> their governance and policy: in the extremely unlikely event that sagemath 
>> on GH would get "locked" due to a misunderstanding (or malice?) we might not 
>> be at their mercy for extracting our valuable history.
>
>
> I agree that it would be valuable to add at least some starting points in 
> this direction.
> As a beginning, I have created the section:
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/migration-from-trac-to-Git**b#retrieving-data-from-github
> to include the link https://docs.github.com/en/rest to GitHub's REST API, 
> which gives access to everything and is extremely well documented.

I used this GitHub REST API a lot recently to implement proxying of
content from GitHub to CoCalc, and it is indeed *extremely* good.

This is a 3 minute video demoing importing github repos to gitlab,
which emphasizes answers to a lot of natural frequent questions
(involving users, issue comments, labels, etc.):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYOXuOg9tQI

In my experience, the search built into GitHub is at least 10x (or
maybe 100x?) faster than our trac search, e.g., try searching
https://trac.sagemath.org/search  versus
https://github.com/python/cpython/issues .In addition GitHub's
advanced search capabilities are useful (in terms of sorting, refining
queries, querying by label, etc.).


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:34 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>> - Some people with strong opinions said that they are not ready to formulate 
>> their views.
>>
>> My impression is that trac is now doing okay,
>
>
> Note that trac's bus factor is down to 1/3. It took efforts of Frederick, 
> Jan, and me to put it into the present state.
> Any kind of system upgrade, or VM infrastructure update, or something else, 
> may break it,
> with all 3 of us possibily needed to repair it. Maybe we'd manage, maybe not.

This is very relevant, since Google is charging us an *extra* $100
month for some mysterious artifact caused by
an ancient App Engine test that was done in 2018.  There is absolutely
no possible way to disable that charge,
as I confirmed after a dozen emails back and forth using my serious
Google support contract from work -- the
only option is to completely delete all current infrastructure and
migrate it to a new project.  This is scary
because "Any kind of system upgrade, or VM infrastructure update,  or
something else, may break it,", and
yet exactly that needs to happen to stop this charge.   Yes, I am
trying to get  Google to credit our account for
the unfair charge, but that hasn't succeeded yet either, as Google
clearly isn't "officially not evil" in an ethical
sense anymore.

Just the price for Google Cloud for trac right now is the same as the
professional GitHub Teams subscription for an org
with around  50 people, which we don't need (since open source), but
it's a relevant comparison.

> I don't think it is an acceptable state of affairs, and that's why it really 
> is strange for me that we are bothering with the vote at all.

I'm extremely appreciative that the sage devs such as Dima are taking
the very real problems of Sage's
dev infrastructure so very seriously right now.

William


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: On changing Bernoulli(1) to +½

[William Stein]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 7:36 PM Kwankyu Lee  wrote:

> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 10:46:09 AM UTC+9 wst...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I just happened to stumble again on the original scrap of paper just
>> now where I made up the name
>> Sage back in 2004.
>>
>
> A good photo of it deserves to be permanently placed in the history
> section of the sagemath website.  But I could not find the history section.
>


Wow a history section would be a great idea. It could also highlight how
much work people put into the sage notebook back in the day, and the extent
to which sage builds on pari, singular, gap, etc…

>
>
>
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>
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Re: [sage-devel] sage zoom meeting reminder

[William Stein]

We took quick notes from the discussion during the short meeting here

-  https://cocalc.com/wstein/sagedev/2022-09-15


On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 8:19 AM William Stein  wrote:
>
> I've also created an agenda file here:
>
> https://cocalc.com/wstein/sagedev/2022-09-15
>
> and the meeting is at
>
> https://meet.jit.si/d8a744b413e339d95fba907b81fb249609520161
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 8:18 AM Matthias Koeppe
>  wrote:
> >
> > I'm having technical trouble. Could someone else please create a meeting 
> > and post the details here?
> >
> > Matthias
> >
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:16:42 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 3:54 PM William Stein  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Reminder -- that 30 minute Sage zoom meeting thing that Matthias
> >> > organized is happening in a few minutes from right now at
> >> >
> >> > https://ucdavis.zoom.us/j/92371662861?pwd=TDZKR0lKb2xzTGhiM0l3cnFmaGRadz09
> >> >
> >>
> >> link doesnt work for me
> >>
> >> > (8:15 pacific time to be exact.)
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > William (http://wstein.org)
> >> >
> >> > --
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> >> > an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
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> >
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>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] sage zoom meeting reminder

[William Stein]

I've also created an agenda file here:

https://cocalc.com/wstein/sagedev/2022-09-15

and the meeting is at

https://meet.jit.si/d8a744b413e339d95fba907b81fb249609520161



On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 8:18 AM Matthias Koeppe
 wrote:
>
> I'm having technical trouble. Could someone else please create a meeting and 
> post the details here?
>
> Matthias
>
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:16:42 AM UTC-7 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 3:54 PM William Stein  wrote:
>> >
>> > Reminder -- that 30 minute Sage zoom meeting thing that Matthias
>> > organized is happening in a few minutes from right now at
>> >
>> > https://ucdavis.zoom.us/j/92371662861?pwd=TDZKR0lKb2xzTGhiM0l3cnFmaGRadz09
>> >
>>
>> link doesnt work for me
>>
>> > (8:15 pacific time to be exact.)
>> >
>> > --
>> > William (http://wstein.org)
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> > "sage-devel" group.
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Re: [sage-devel] sage zoom meeting reminder

[William Stein]

Matthias just wrote that he is having technical troubles with zoom.
Here's where we will have the meeting instead:


https://meet.jit.si/d8a744b413e339d95fba907b81fb249609520161

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 8:16 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 3:54 PM William Stein  wrote:
> >
> > Reminder -- that 30 minute Sage zoom meeting thing that Matthias
> > organized is happening in a few minutes from right now at
> >
> > https://ucdavis.zoom.us/j/92371662861?pwd=TDZKR0lKb2xzTGhiM0l3cnFmaGRadz09
> >
>
> link doesnt work for me
>
> > (8:15 pacific time to be exact.)
> >
> > --
> > William (http://wstein.org)
> >
> > --
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>
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[sage-devel] sage zoom meeting reminder

[William Stein]

Reminder -- that 30 minute Sage zoom meeting thing that Matthias
organized is happening in a few minutes from right now at

https://ucdavis.zoom.us/j/92371662861?pwd=TDZKR0lKb2xzTGhiM0l3cnFmaGRadz09

(8:15 pacific time to be exact.)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 2:17 AM Samuel Lelièvre
 wrote:
> Increasingly, services such as GitHub and Google require
> users to have a mobile phone number, to share it with them,
> and to be able to receive text messages on them in order
> to be able to log in or access certain features.

I don't think this is the case of GitHub right now.   They do
optionally *support* 2-factor authentication (unlike our trac setup),
which is a very (very!) good thing from a security point of view.
Personally, I enable 2-factor for GitHub and use a generic 2-factor
app on my phone.  Maybe we should require 2-factor? [1]

I would not dismiss your concern about GitHub eventually charging as
easily as Dima did.  In fact, just two days ago
GitLab (not GitHub) noticeably cracked down on free usage

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32821682

That said, on GitLab open source projects such as SageMath would still
be free, as they have a special application process for open source
projects.   It is also supposed to be easy to migrate complete
projects from GitHub to GitLab if necessary, as that's a key part of
GitLab's business model.

There is no requirement that all hosting for everything involving
SageMath be completely free. [2]

My personal biggest fear with GitHub was for a long time "What happens
when they get bought by big-company-X?".  At least that was answered
when Microsoft bought them in 2018 (see [3]); at least now they won't
be bought by Oracle (I painfully remember Oracle killing Sun
Microsofts literally months after SageMath started getting some
*major* marketing and vendor support from Sun.)

 -- William

[1] Related to this, the JupyterLab project this week flipped a switch
to *require* all developers with commit access to use 2-factor
authentication.  We don't have to make that requirement for SageMath,
though personally I think we should, since if a hacker were to break
into one person's account and sneak bad code into Sage, it could be
very bad (for whoever it targets, and also for our reputation).  Due
to Sage's use in cryptography research, there are very good arguments
that Sage would be a high value target for such attacks, e.g., by
sophisticated state sponsored entities.


[2]  E.g., I guess we've been paying to host trac much more than we
would pay for GitHub if it weren't free.

[3] https://news.microsoft.com/announcement/microsoft-acquires-github/

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2022 at 6:25 AM TB  wrote:
> Somewhere in this thread, or in a related thread, the trac backups were 
> mentioned. It reminded me of the the incident
> https://www.asmeurer.com/blog/posts/the-sympy-hackerrank-dmca-incident/
> where SymPy was wrongfully accused of a copyright violation, and got their 
> docs repo and docs website taken down by GitHub. The issue was resolved, and 
> for more details the above post by Aaron Meurer is a recommended reading. One 
> hint I got from this is that any plan to migrate to a new platform should 
> include a plan to migrate out of this platform.

Thanks for posting this fascinating blog post.  It's interesting that
their conclusion was:  "I do feel that being on a site like GitHub is
still preferable to something like self-hosting.  If you self-host,
you become responsible for a ton of things which GitHub does for you,
like making sure everything stays online, handling servers, and
managing spam. Also, self-hosting does not magically shield you from
legal threats. If you self-host content that infringes on someone’s
copyright, you are still legally liable for hosting that content."

It's also worrisome as you point out that they say "I have been
looking into effective
ways to backup this data [all GitHub issues and pull request history].
If anyone has any
suggestions here, please let me know in the comments."

A google search leads to this page that has three solutions:

https://rewind.com/blog/three-ways-to-backup-your-github-issues/

One of the thre options is BackupHub from Atlassian --
https://rewind.com/products/backups/github/
It looks trivial to use, but it's not free, and it's very unclear how
much it would cost for sagemath.
The other options involve the GitHub API, which I've used and is
actually really good.

 -- William




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Re: [sage-devel] Re: On changing Bernoulli(1) to +½

[William Stein]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:00 PM edgardi...@gmail.com
 wrote:
>
> The choice of the sign is arbitrary. So why make this change? What is the 
> benefit?

The answer to that question is what the website

http://luschny.de/math/zeta/The-Bernoulli-Manifesto.html

is all about. I think you have to read that website.   Here's a random
quote from that website that might peak your interest:

"By now, hundreds of books that use "the minus-one-half" convention
have unfortunately been written.  Even the major software systems for
symbolic mathematics have that 20th-century aberration deeply
embedded.  Yet Luschny convinced me that we have all been wrong, and
that it's high time to change back to the correct definition before
the situation gets even worse.  Therefore I changed the definition of
$B_1$ in all printings of The Art of Computer Programming..."

- Donald Knuth




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Re: [sage-devel] On changing Bernoulli(1) to +½

[William Stein]

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 10:04 AM davida...@gmail.com
 wrote:
>
> >  I'm curious if the change breaks any code anywhere else in Sage (e.g., 
> > maybe for computing q-expansions of modular forms?)...
>
> You guessed right. I did a quick local change to the bernoulli function and 
> it indeed breaks some tests in sage/modular/modform:

I created all of the files listed below.  My guess is that code for
computing q-expansions of Eisenstein series assume B(1) is what it is,
and one would just need to change that code by changing a sign
somewhere.

William

>
> ~/sage$ ./sage -t src/sage/modular/modform
> sage -t --random-seed=279226112023210448433794639443228726052 
> src/sage/modular/modform/ambient.py  # 1 doctest failed
> sage -t --random-seed=279226112023210448433794639443228726052 
> src/sage/modular/modform/element.py  # 11 doctests failed
> sage -t --random-seed=279226112023210448433794639443228726052 
> src/sage/modular/modform/ambient_g1.py  # 1 doctest failed
> sage -t --random-seed=279226112023210448433794639443228726052 
> src/sage/modular/modform/eisenstein_submodule.py  # 4 doctests failed
> sage -t --random-seed=279226112023210448433794639443228726052 
> src/sage/modular/modform/ring.py  # 3 doctests failed
> sage -t --random-seed=279226112023210448433794639443228726052 
> src/sage/modular/modform/constructor.py  # 1 doctest failed
>
>
> However, I would be in favor for this change. I would also be glad to lend a 
> hand for fixing those doctests.
> Le samedi 10 septembre 2022 à 12:50:44 UTC-4, wst...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 7:17 AM Jeremy Tan  wrote:
>> >
>> > My name is Jeremy Tan, or Parcly Taxel in the furry/MLP art scene. As of 
>> > this post I am a recent graduate from the National University of Singapore 
>> > with two degrees in maths and computer science.
>> >
>> > Over the past month I had a good read of Peter Luschny's Bernoulli 
>> > Manifesto (http://luschny.de/math/zeta/The-Bernoulli-Manifesto.html) and 
>> > was thoroughly convinced that B_1 (the first Bernoulli number) has to be 
>> > +½, not -½. (Much of Luschny's argument centres on being able to (1) 
>> > interpolate the Bernoulli numbers when B_1 = +½ with an entire function 
>> > intimately related to the zeta function, and (2) extend the range of 
>> > validity of or simplify several important equations like the 
>> > Euler–Maclaurin formula. Have a read yourself though – it is close to 
>> > divine truth.)
>> >
>> > So I went to SymPy – one of SageMath's dependencies, and where a 
>> > discussion on this topic was open 
>> > (https://github.com/sympy/sympy/issues/23866) – and successfully merged 
>> > several PRs there (https://github.com/sympy/sympy/pull/23926) implementing 
>> > both that change and some functions in Luschny's "An introduction to the 
>> > Bernoulli function" (https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.06743).
>> >
>> > I thought I was also done with changing B_1 = +½ for SageMath, but then 
>> > someone pointed out that the latter currently uses other libraries that 
>> > all have B_1 = -½. I have already opened a PR for one such library, FLINT, 
>> > to change B_1 = +½ there (https://github.com/wbhart/flint2/pull/1179). 
>> > However Fredrik Johansson has advised me that I take the discussion right 
>> > here, to sage-devel, because (in his words)
>> >
>> > > if FLINT and Arb change their definitions but the Sage developers decide 
>> > > that they don't like it, they will just treat the new behavior as a bug 
>> > > and add a special case in the wrapper to return B_1 = -½.
>> >
>> > So my proposal is to special-case it the other way – before the backend 
>> > selection in Sage's Bernoulli code 
>> > (https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/08202bc1ba7caea46327908db8e3715d1adf6f9a/src/sage/arith/misc.py#L349),
>> >  add a check for argument 1 and immediately return +½ if that is the case. 
>> > This also has the advantage of bypassing libraries that haven't or don't 
>> > want to change.
>> >
>> > What do you think?
>>
>> It could be done via the "1 year deprecation policy". I.e., return the
>> current value by default with a warning message
>> (and note about an option to change it) for the next year, then when
>> there is a release in late 2023 (?), the default would change. This
>> would give people time to update their code.
>>
>> I have no comment on the pros and cons of this personally, though I'm
>> curious if the change breaks any code anywhere else in Sage (e.g.,
>> maybe for computing q-expansions of modular forms?)...
>>
>> >
>> > Jeremy Tan / Parcly Taxel
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> > "sage-devel" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> > 

Re: [sage-devel] On changing Bernoulli(1) to +½

[William Stein]

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 7:17 AM Jeremy Tan  wrote:
>
> My name is Jeremy Tan, or Parcly Taxel in the furry/MLP art scene. As of this 
> post I am a recent graduate from the National University of Singapore with 
> two degrees in maths and computer science.
>
> Over the past month I had a good read of Peter Luschny's Bernoulli Manifesto 
> (http://luschny.de/math/zeta/The-Bernoulli-Manifesto.html) and was thoroughly 
> convinced that B_1 (the first Bernoulli number) has to be +½, not -½. (Much 
> of Luschny's argument centres on being able to (1) interpolate the Bernoulli 
> numbers when B_1 = +½ with an entire function intimately related to the zeta 
> function, and (2) extend the range of validity of or simplify several 
> important equations like the Euler–Maclaurin formula. Have a read yourself 
> though – it is close to divine truth.)
>
> So I went to SymPy – one of SageMath's dependencies, and where a discussion 
> on this topic was open (https://github.com/sympy/sympy/issues/23866) – and 
> successfully merged several PRs there 
> (https://github.com/sympy/sympy/pull/23926) implementing both that change and 
> some functions in Luschny's "An introduction to the Bernoulli function" 
> (https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.06743).
>
> I thought I was also done with changing B_1 = +½ for SageMath, but then 
> someone pointed out that the latter currently uses other libraries that all 
> have B_1 = -½. I have already opened a PR for one such library, FLINT, to 
> change B_1 = +½ there (https://github.com/wbhart/flint2/pull/1179). However 
> Fredrik Johansson has advised me that I take the discussion right here, to 
> sage-devel, because (in his words)
>
> > if FLINT and Arb change their definitions but the Sage developers decide 
> > that they don't like it, they will just treat the new behavior as a bug and 
> > add a special case in the wrapper to return B_1 = -½.
>
> So my proposal is to special-case it the other way – before the backend 
> selection in Sage's Bernoulli code 
> (https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/08202bc1ba7caea46327908db8e3715d1adf6f9a/src/sage/arith/misc.py#L349),
>  add a check for argument 1 and immediately return +½ if that is the case. 
> This also has the advantage of bypassing libraries that haven't or don't want 
> to change.
>
> What do you think?

It could be done via the "1 year deprecation policy". I.e., return the
current value by default with a warning message
(and note about an option to change it) for the next year, then when
there is a release in late 2023 (?), the default would change.  This
would give people time to update their code.

I have no comment on the pros and cons of this personally, though I'm
curious if the change breaks any code anywhere else in Sage (e.g.,
maybe for computing q-expansions of modular forms?)...

>
> Jeremy Tan / Parcly Taxel
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Fwd: request for help: macOS PARI binaries

[William Stein]

+1 from me.

On Fri, Sep 9, 2022 at 9:18 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 10:40 AM Samuel Lelievre
>  wrote:
> >
> > Echoing a message posted to the pari-users mailing list.
> >
> > https://pari.math.u-bordeaux.fr/archives/pari-users-2209/msg00015.html
> >
> >
> > -- Forwarded message (slightly edited) -
> > From: Bill Allombert
> > Date: 2022-09-08 07:15 UTC
> > Subject: request for help: MacOS PARI binaries
> > To: pari-users
> >
> >
> > Dear PARI users,
> >
> > We do not have the support needed to build
> > macOS binary for the ARM based Mac. We both
> > lack the hardware and the software expertise
> > to set up a new build system for newer Mac.
> >
> > What we would need is access to a Mac mini
> > with Xcode and Homebrew installed, and help
> > with updating our build scripts for M1.
>
> Maybe we should provide money from our little war chest to pay for M1
> hardware for Pari/GP
> group and Sage people - to be hosted in Bordeaux?
>
> Dima
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Bill.
> >
> > --
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Re: [sagemath-admins] Fwd: [sage-devel] Re: incremental migration to github? [prompted by FUNDING issues!!!] + general flakiness of trac

[William Stein]

Hi,

By not using GitHub we are losing many potential contributors to Sage.
GitHub is by far the most popular site for hosting of open source
projects, and potential Sage developers are likely to be familiar with
GitHub.  Not using GitHub adds a huge barrier to entry for Sage
development.

For example, I don't contribute to Sage anymore because the barrier to
entry via trac is too high.  I contributed (and had accepted) a little
pull request yesterday to numpy **because** the barrier was so low.

 -- William

On Fri, Sep 9, 2022 at 7:40 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022, 15:26 Kwankyu Lee,  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> the futre of the trac software itself.
>>
>>
>> According to their developer mailing list
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/trac-dev
>>
>> the future of trac seems not so ominous to me.
>
>
> 18 posts (in half a dozen threads) since beginning of 2022 does not look 
> healthy to me.
>
> And on their users group one sees that it's populated by people who have 
> projects running SVN and  mercurial - VCSs not supported by GitHub.
>
>
>>
>> Perhaps publishing our fork of trac with customized plugins (?) to sagemath 
>> github repo may help increase  the bus factor about our own trac
>
>
> maintaining our trac does not bring me (or anyone, I suppose) any joy.
>
> If your objection to the move is strong - you are welcome to take over.
>
> Fred, Jan, and me spent together perhaps 40 working hours on this totally 
> thankless task in the last 2 weeks. We could instead have done something 
> useful for Sage proper instead.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Trac no longer seems to push to sagetrac-mirror

[William Stein]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:37 AM Matthias Koeppe  wrote:
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 10:52:04 PM UTC-7 Frédéric Chapoton wrote:
>>
>> You are very welcome to help.
>
>
> Someone please add me to sagemath-admins so I can at least know what's 
> happening

I have added you to the mailing list.
https://groups.google.com/g/sagemath-admins/members


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Polling for pygments style for our future doc

[William Stein]

I vote for sphinx

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 11:35 AM TB  wrote:

> sphinx > default  > tango
>
> 1. For the color choice alone, I prefer the colors of tango over the
> colors of default, with exception for C and Cython code. For comparison:
> (tango)
> https://2505ea042169d8a179d4b1f28a0c0baeabdd421a--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/thematic_tutorials/cython_interface.html#arguments-and-return-value
> (default)
> https://54ea9f6ae8fa30e96afa5304e0c11cf99f055158--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/thematic_tutorials/cython_interface.html#arguments-and-return-value
> (sphinx)
> https://4c5a03db3ec20647b9da62c0e44271901c2dd58d--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/thematic_tutorials/cython_interface.html#arguments-and-return-value
>
> 2. Even better colors (more contrast, better background and easier to
> read) are in the dark theme. I think it is the monokai theme.
>
> Regards,
> TB
>
> On 04/08/2022 20:35, dmo...@deductivepress.ca wrote:
>
> sphinx > default  >>  tango
>
> I agree with the previous criticisms of tango: low contrast (makes it hard
> to read), italic output, and blue numbers that are too intense.
>
> On Thursday, August 4, 2022 at 11:13:17 AM UTC-6 David Roe wrote:
>
>> default > sphinx > tango.  I agree that the italics are the main issue
>> with tango; I like the color scheme more than the other two.
>> David
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 11:00 AM Eric Gourgoulhon 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Le jeudi 4 août 2022 à 18:33:27 UTC+2, Eric Gourgoulhon a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Thanks for preparing this poll. I vote for
>>>>
>>>> (1) tango
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, I missed the point about the italic. Please change my vote to
>>>
>>> (2) default
>>>
>>> Eric.
>>>
>> --
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>>>
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[sage-devel] MAA mathfast

[William Stein]

Hi,

Are any sage devs or people reading this going to be at the MAA
Mathfest next week

https://www.maa.org/meetings/mathfest

There will be a CoCalc/Sage booth.  I won't be there, but Blaec
Bejarano who works fulltime on CoCalc will be running it.
Please stop by and say "hello", get stickers, or hang out.

Thanks!

William

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: System upgrades breaking sage frequently

[William Stein]

For CoCalc, where we have a bunch of different specific versions of
Sage pre-installed that all stay stable over *years*, we run a 1-2
pages long "./configure ..." command before I even do "make". At the
top it starts with

--with-system-python3=no \
--with-system-r=no \
--with-system-primecount=no \
--with-system-primesieve=no \
--with-system-qhull=no \
--with-system-cmake=no  \
...
… so,that's why R, Python interpreter, and other stuff is independent. …

We should definitely check if there is more I could make independent.
I mean, technically it's not independent, because some underlying libs
are shared, but there are certainly less surprises and the dependency
graph is not a wide blinking christmas tree.  What we are not doing is
sharing Sage across linux editions. i.e. 20.04 will have a couple of
Sage installs and with 22.04 there will be a new 9.6 one. But that's
not the issue in the thread.

Could there be a single option to the Sage build system such as:
"--without-system" that disables all system libraries, and hence
behaves exactly like Sage used to?  Is there already such an option
that I don't know about?

William

On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 12:44 PM Nils Bruin  wrote:
>
> On Thursday, 21 July 2022 at 11:52:42 UTC-7 Nils Bruin wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday, 21 July 2022 at 11:31:35 UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> You really just need to stop your distribution from automatically 
>>> uninstalling the old shared library packages when you do upgrades. Both the 
>>> old version (needed for your from-source installation of Sage) and the new 
>>> version (needed as dependencies of upgraded system packages) can coexist in 
>>> your system.
>>>
>>
>> Right .. but that would require telling the system which libraries need to 
>> be preserved ... I guess one could collect the dependencies by a liberal ldd 
>> application, but then one would need to query the package manager which 
>> packages provide the requisite library files and then somehow register those 
>> packages *are* dependencies ... I guess that could be done by building a 
>> placeholder package (rpm or deb) that declares all the specific 
>> dependencies. And to "declare" these, one could install that package. Upon a 
>> reconfigure+rebuild, one could uninstall the old placeholder, recompute the 
>> new dependencies, and install a new placeholder ...
>
>
> Ouch ... and it looks like this wouldn't even work: if I try
>
> dnf whatprovides /usr/lib64/libflint.so.17
>
> I get:
>
> flint-2.9.0-1.fc36.x86_64
>
> and similarly
>
> dnf whatprovides /usr.lib64/libflint.so.16
> flint-2.8.4-2.fc36.x86_64
>
> Hence, if a compiled-from-source sagemath were to declare its dependencies to 
> the package manager it would have to do so by depending on a *specific 
> version* of flint, and hence "updating" flint should lead to a dependency 
> conflict. As long as fedora doesn't allow two different version of flint to 
> be installed at the same time (and the fact that flint-2.9 "upgrades" 
> flint-2.8 suggests that it won't), we'd need a version lock: just keeping an 
> unmanaged so-file hang around in space that's supposed to be managed by a 
> package manager would lead to a rather messy system state.
>
> So, based on that, I think build-from-source using these kinds of system 
> resources should actually *not* be a recommended install method: 
> build-from-source should have its less stable prerequisites satisfied by some 
> separate environment -- possibly/likely conda. Resources/libraries such as 
> libflint are clearly *only* managed and provided by the OS in a way that is 
> appropriate for other OS-managed/packaged software. Turns out there's still a 
> niche for sage-the-distribution; possibly replaced by 
> sage-in-conda-the-distribution. Can we get sage-on-conda modified so that it 
> works nicely with git-trac, so that a sage-conda container can be used for 
> development? I would be very interested in a guide to that.
>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Is trac down?

[William Stein]

It should work now.  A certain person accidentally deleted the billing
account, and I've restored that and started the server.

William

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 2:55 PM William Stein  wrote:
>
> On it.
>
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 2:45 PM John H Palmieri  
> wrote:
> >
> > I can't access trac.sagemath.org. Can someone please give it a kick?
> >
> > --
> > John
> >
> > --
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>
>
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Is trac down?

[William Stein]

On it.

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 2:45 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:
>
> I can't access trac.sagemath.org. Can someone please give it a kick?
>
> --
> John
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Introduction to differentiable manifolds in SageMath

[William Stein]

Hi,

Proxying of URL's from github, etc., is now live in cocalc share
server. See the comment here about how it works:
https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/6015#issuecomment-1172967091

For example

https://cocalc.com/github/sagemanifolds/IntroToManifolds

is now actually proxying exactly what is on github directly.  Also,
you can easily click "Edit" and in about 25 seconds you're running a
notebook with Sage!

William


On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 11:42 AM William Stein  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 1:42 AM Eric Gourgoulhon  
> wrote:
> >
> > Le samedi 25 juin 2022 à 17:31:10 UTC+2, wst...@gmail.com a écrit :
> >>
> >> > There is some issue in the latex display of manifold maps:
> >> > ParseError: KaTeX parse error: Undefined control sequence: \mbox at 
> >> > position 96: …thbb{E}^{2} \\ \̲m̲b̲o̲x̲{on}\ A : & \ph…
> >>
> >> Thanks -- I've created this issue in case you're curious about the 
> >> situation:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/6019
> >>
> >> In particular, I think it would be better if the latex representation
> >> output by sage manifolds used "\text{on}" instead of "\mbox{on}";
> >> however, I'll add a workaround in CoCalc so that isn't necessary.
> >
> >
> > IIRC, I used \mbox instead of \text because \mbox is plain LaTeX, while 
> > \text requires the package amstext, so I naively thought that \mbox was 
> > more robust. The katex example shows that it is rather the converse. So 
> > yes, we may change \mbox to \text. Note that \mbox is quite heavily used in 
> > all Sage: running
>
> I think what happened is that the problem \mbox tries to solve is
> solved in a slightly better way by other commands like \text.   As a
> result katex only implemented the better solution.   Your reasoning to
> use \mbox instead \of text might be a reasonable argument for keeping
> the current behavior in Sage, despite this annoying katex situation.
> Regarding CoCalc, yesterday I added an alias so that now our katex
> rendering works with \mbox (it just sets \mbox to \text), so these
> sage manifolds notebooks all look fine now.
>
> William
>
> > grep -r '\\mbox'
> > from src/sage returns 206 lines, among which 34 in src/sage/manifolds.
>
> >
> > Eric.
> >
> > --
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>
>
>
> --
> William (http://wstein.org)



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[sage-devel] GitHub uses SageMath (Maintainer Month donation)

[William Stein]

Hi Sage Devs,

A few days ago we received a $500 donation from GitHub.  It's part of

https://github.blog/2022-06-24-thank-you-to-our-maintainers/

*"To celebrate Maintainer Month, GitHub has invested an additional $500,000
to help sponsor the open source projects that it depends on."*

I think that's a nice gesture from GitHub, and I'm happy knowing that
Sagemath is one of the projects GitHub depends on.

 -- William

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Re: [sage-devel] Introduction to differentiable manifolds in SageMath

[William Stein]

On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 1:42 AM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:
>
> Le samedi 25 juin 2022 à 17:31:10 UTC+2, wst...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>
>> > There is some issue in the latex display of manifold maps:
>> > ParseError: KaTeX parse error: Undefined control sequence: \mbox at 
>> > position 96: …thbb{E}^{2} \\ \̲m̲b̲o̲x̲{on}\ A : & \ph…
>>
>> Thanks -- I've created this issue in case you're curious about the situation:
>>
>> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/6019
>>
>> In particular, I think it would be better if the latex representation
>> output by sage manifolds used "\text{on}" instead of "\mbox{on}";
>> however, I'll add a workaround in CoCalc so that isn't necessary.
>
>
> IIRC, I used \mbox instead of \text because \mbox is plain LaTeX, while \text 
> requires the package amstext, so I naively thought that \mbox was more 
> robust. The katex example shows that it is rather the converse. So yes, we 
> may change \mbox to \text. Note that \mbox is quite heavily used in all Sage: 
> running

I think what happened is that the problem \mbox tries to solve is
solved in a slightly better way by other commands like \text.   As a
result katex only implemented the better solution.   Your reasoning to
use \mbox instead \of text might be a reasonable argument for keeping
the current behavior in Sage, despite this annoying katex situation.
Regarding CoCalc, yesterday I added an alias so that now our katex
rendering works with \mbox (it just sets \mbox to \text), so these
sage manifolds notebooks all look fine now.

William

> grep -r '\\mbox'
> from src/sage returns 206 lines, among which 34 in src/sage/manifolds.

>
> Eric.
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Introduction to differentiable manifolds in SageMath

[William Stein]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 11:17 AM Eric Gourgoulhon
 wrote:
>
>
>
> Le vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 18:52:00 UTC+2, wst...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>
>>
>> I also put a copy of these beautiful notebooks here:
>>
>> https://cocalc.com/wstein/support/IntroToManifolds
>>
>
> Thanks!
>
> There is some issue in the latex display of manifold maps:
> ParseError: KaTeX parse error: Undefined control sequence: \mbox at position 
> 96: …thbb{E}^{2} \\ \̲m̲b̲o̲x̲{on}\ A : & \ph…

Thanks -- I've created this issue in case you're curious about the situation:

https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/6019

In particular, I think it would be better if the latex representation
output by sage manifolds used "\text{on}" instead of "\mbox{on}";
however, I'll add a workaround in CoCalc so that isn't necessary.

>
> cf. cell [2] of 
> https://cocalc.com/wstein/support/IntroToManifolds/files/04Manifold_Spheres.ipynb
>
>>
>> This has some pros and cons over nbviewer + mybinder (see
>> https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/6015).
>>
>>
>
> Indeed, mybinder + Sage is broken at the moment (*). It would be nice to have 
> an alternative solution on CoCalc!
>
> Eric.
>
> (*)  mybinder + Sage used to work quite reasonably (by means of Sage's Docker 
> images) some 2 years ago or so.
>
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Introduction to differentiable manifolds in SageMath

[William Stein]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 7:38 AM Eric Gourgoulhon  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Andrzej Chrzeszczyk (Jan Kochanowski University of Kielce, Poland) has 
> prepared a series of notebooks introducing differentiable manifolds at the 
> textbook level with many examples from Sage and nice figures:
> https://sagemanifolds.obspm.fr/intro_to_manifolds.html
>

I also put a copy of these beautiful notebooks here:

https://cocalc.com/wstein/support/IntroToManifolds

This has some pros and cons over nbviewer + mybinder (see
https://github.com/sagemathinc/cocalc/issues/6015).


> Best wishes,
>
> Eric.
>
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