Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

Well, Maud. A bit like an exercise for student reporters - that sort 
of fact-extraction can paint any picture you like. It's an exercise 
on how not to do it. Yes, I know you said it's what was significant 
to you, but I'd have to say that I'd paint a quite different picture, 
so would Todd I reckon, and maybe Quinn would too. And I wouldn't say 
that everything I'd skipped was "dust". To take just one point, in 
what you attribute to me, there's something of a world of difference 
between this:

>I?), and Keith agreed to post them on JtoF.

... and this:

>Nonetheless, if you come up with Middle Way solutions that fit our
>criteria I'd be more than happy to give them space at JtF's processor
>section.

The difference isn't just "dust". No doubt Quinn would dismiss this 
as just quibbling over semantics, but try it and see. You'd have to 
abandon the first one (your interpretation) and take back the missing 
context of the second one (a "hanging" quote) to find out exactly 
what "our criteria" might mean, and not mean. You'd find them neither 
dusty nor superficial. That's if you ever got past the "Nonetheless". 
It was quite a nonetheless, as nonethelesses go - I'd said your idea 
would close off more possibilities than it would open up, among other 
things. No way does it boil down to "Keith agreed".

Same with the rest. It all seems to pick its way carefully past the 
context, leaves you trying to read between the lines for all the 
glaringly missing bits. There were serious issues here, even if you 
missed them or regard them as insignificant. Work such as this would 
definitely get a student reporter's ear blistered.

Well, never mind, at least the archives is less picky.

Keith



>Nathan,
>
>I never thought I'd take the time to do such a thing, but before I go
>outside to cut down the rosebushes I've assembled (below) some of the
>key points made on this thread between Quinn, Keith, Todd, and me.
>Now that the dust is settling, this is what was significant to me in
>the exchange:
>
>In an effort to make the point that comprehensive processor plans
>would provide an alternative to customized packaged solutions, I made
>the point that push-button convenience is what it would take to
>attract many people in my country (the United States) to making their
>own biodiesel. Although Quinn agreed with my point, she never
>expressed a desire to have an automated or ready-made solution for
>herself (and neither did I.) In fact, Quinn and I both expressed an
>interest in a set of comprehensive processor plans. I offered to help
>develop the plans and work up the instructions for them. Todd sort of
>offered to work them up (OK, maybe not really, but I can dream, can't
>I?), and Keith agreed to post them on JtoF.
>
>All that other stuff? Dust...
>
>Maud
>St. Louis, Missouri
>
>**
>
>Selected Quotations
>
>**
>
>Keith said:
>...there's a whole world between the two extremes of having to be a
>rocket scientist and just flipping a switch, "simple and mindless"...
>
>Maud said:
>...I really, really do want the design and specifications for a
>complete solution that includes an appropriate washing tank...and
>also a condenser.
>   and
>- Standard D-I-Y designs for a complete solution
>   - Select the appropriate set of plans
>   - Acquire the parts (scavenge some or purchase most at a
>variety of sources)
>   - Assemble the processor
>   and
>...a choice of D-I-Y solutions sized by output capacity is ideal. And
>it would help to prevent people from making the mistake of purchasing
>a packaged solution that produces poor results.
>   and
>I am seriously offering my services to help develop the documentation
>to support the Middle Way solutions.
>
>Quinn said:
>...there would be more of us shade-tree fuel makers if there were a
>set of plans, yes, down to the nuts & bolts.  And I see that, in
>fact, that is happening on the list.  And that is good.
>
>Todd said:
>Frankly, I would rather take the time and effort to blueprint and
>cost out a micro-system down to the very last washer and grommet,
>then put it on the net for free, letting anyone with a high enough IQ
>acquire the parts and assemble them on their own...
>
>Keith said:
>JtF is quite clear about being much more interested in the
>Philippines than in the US or any of the OECD countries, that's our
>focus, 3rd World countries.
>   and
>Nonetheless, if you come up with Middle Way solutions that fit our
>criteria I'd be more than happy to give them space at JtF's processor
>section.
>--
>Maud Essen
>Essential Services
>4163 W. Pine Blvd.
>St. Louis, MO   63108-2801
>
>314-531-8098 (voice)
>775-593-6428 (fax)
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Maud Essen]

Nathan,

I never thought I'd take the time to do such a thing, but before I go 
outside to cut down the rosebushes I've assembled (below) some of the 
key points made on this thread between Quinn, Keith, Todd, and me. 
Now that the dust is settling, this is what was significant to me in 
the exchange:

In an effort to make the point that comprehensive processor plans 
would provide an alternative to customized packaged solutions, I made 
the point that push-button convenience is what it would take to 
attract many people in my country (the United States) to making their 
own biodiesel. Although Quinn agreed with my point, she never 
expressed a desire to have an automated or ready-made solution for 
herself (and neither did I.) In fact, Quinn and I both expressed an 
interest in a set of comprehensive processor plans. I offered to help 
develop the plans and work up the instructions for them. Todd sort of 
offered to work them up (OK, maybe not really, but I can dream, can't 
I?), and Keith agreed to post them on JtoF.

All that other stuff? Dust...

Maud
St. Louis, Missouri

**

Selected Quotations

**

Keith said:
...there's a whole world between the two extremes of having to be a 
rocket scientist and just flipping a switch, "simple and mindless"...

Maud said:
...I really, really do want the design and specifications for a 
complete solution that includes an appropriate washing tank...and 
also a condenser.
and
- Standard D-I-Y designs for a complete solution
- Select the appropriate set of plans
- Acquire the parts (scavenge some or purchase most at a 
variety of sources)
- Assemble the processor
and
...a choice of D-I-Y solutions sized by output capacity is ideal. And 
it would help to prevent people from making the mistake of purchasing 
a packaged solution that produces poor results.
and
I am seriously offering my services to help develop the documentation 
to support the Middle Way solutions.

Quinn said:
...there would be more of us shade-tree fuel makers if there were a 
set of plans, yes, down to the nuts & bolts.  And I see that, in 
fact, that is happening on the list.  And that is good.

Todd said:
Frankly, I would rather take the time and effort to blueprint and 
cost out a micro-system down to the very last washer and grommet, 
then put it on the net for free, letting anyone with a high enough IQ 
acquire the parts and assemble them on their own...

Keith said:
JtF is quite clear about being much more interested in the 
Philippines than in the US or any of the OECD countries, that's our 
focus, 3rd World countries.
and
Nonetheless, if you come up with Middle Way solutions that fit our 
criteria I'd be more than happy to give them space at JtF's processor 
section.
-- 
Maud Essen
Essential Services
4163 W. Pine Blvd.
St. Louis, MO   63108-2801

314-531-8098 (voice)
775-593-6428 (fax)

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Nathan A. McQuillen]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Keith Addison wrote:

> >Um, Keith? Isn't there a protocol here about outright nastiness?
> 
> Outright nastiness? Maybe it's in the eye of the beholder Nathan

I know it is, sorry if that comment was out of line. Seemed like there
were some character comments and loaded words being written by a number of
people there and I just wanted to express that it was detracting, for me,
from the content of previous posts, namely the question of simplifying
and/or automating the production process (which for me is mostly
interesting because of the number of people we'd like to have running our
equipment eventually).


> rather like the alleged misogyny.

I did find that one comment (the Virginia Slims thing) to be a totally
APPROPRIATE class-conscious statement, but I can see how it could have
come across as unfortunately misogynistic -- but whatever, I know better
than to take it that way, mostly because I don't know if Virginia Slims
are so clearly marketed exclusively to women anywhere else in the world.  
I guess the basic question is, was this little sketch in fact intended to
portray a woman? Wasn't there a breaking a nail comment there too... still
says a woman of a certain class to me, but I can see the other point as
well.

At any rate, I agree with Todd on the gist of this comment, which is that
those who don't want to get their hands dirty should perhaps not be too
hasty to build OR buy home chemical plants, at least until those plants
come with lifetime service plans, operators and insurance policies.

Which, for three grand, they probably should.

- Nathan McQuillen
  Madison, WI EE.UU.




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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

>Um, Keith? Isn't there a protocol here about outright nastiness?

Outright nastiness? Maybe it's in the eye of the beholder Nathan, 
rather like the alleged mysogyny.

Keith



>- Nathan


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Nathan A. McQuillen]

Um, Keith? Isn't there a protocol here about outright nastiness?

I think Quinn and co. have some valid points, and they're being drowned in
this exchange. I'd like it a lot if we could get back to it.

Todd and Mark, you obviously have a LOT of knowledge about what is
required to make a BD processor safe and reliable -- how about putting
your knowledge and Quinn's ideas about pushbutton processors together, and
see what you can come up with? An open sourced, mostly automatic, closed
loop processor that could be made from scrap and off-the-shelf parts would
seem to be the best of both worlds, to me, and I'm not thinking about
breaking a nail -- I'm thinking about making a process independent of
particular individuals, so that a small scale co-op could train and trust
any member to operate the equipment. A pushbutton alone wouldn't do it, of
course.

The water-heater processor seems to come close, and it would be trivial to
add some process automation to such a small scale system.

The most heinous part of these off-the-shelf processor hucksters, to my
newbie's eyes, is the attempt to make the chemistry look trivial or
secondary when it is of course the core of the process. I suspect that one
can make good fuel in a PETE conical tank, even rather safely, if one
takes precautions, but I can't imagine that someone sold on the idea of a
turnkey processor would be nearly as rigorous in their chemistry than
someone who took the time to learn this from the ground up, or have
anything like a real understanding of what was going on in the reactor. If
they did, fine -- it's hard for skills to be seriously compromised by the
available tools, since someone who knows what they're doing will just make
do or adapt -- but I worry that the turnkey or pushbutton approach means
selling the "ease" of a process which really requires some in-depth
training to carry out reliably.

And, yeah -- it's three grand. 

- Nathan



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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

[Search Results for "succinct"--
> 1) maxim. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English 
>Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
>...A succinct formulation of a fundamental principle, general truth, 
>or rule of conduct. See synonyms at saying. Middle English maxime, 
>from Old French, from Medieval...
>
>2) succinct. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English 
>Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
>...sucácinctáest1. Characterized by clear, precise expression in few words;  ]
>
>So, flame away if you simply can't contain yourself, I am through 
>with this topic and will not be engaging with you further.
>
>Quinn
>
>BTW, Keith, just below Todd states: "Dabbling with methanol, lye and 
>heat sources isn't exactly the same as bread making or weekend 
>laundry."  Exactly what Maud and I have been saying all along.
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Appal Energy
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 1:06 AM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
>
>
>Quinn,
>
>Please read the entirety of the posts and responses Quinn. Not simply those
>one-sided snippits that fit the pounding of your heart at a given moment.
>
>While I have no bone to pick with either Maud or you, the tone of her tomes
>have been rather succinct, whether intended as tongue in cheek or not. And
>you're following suit.
>
>Push button convenience. Clothes-washer safe and reliable. Thought free.
>Foolproof. And then assemble it all and give it to the masses...Yippee!
>
>What ever happened to the end user having a clue clue as to what to do with
>it, what they're actually getting into and whether they're going to stick
>with it or not? "Build a production run of retail reactors/systems and they
>will come, eh?"
>
>Dabbling with methanol, lye and heat sources isn't exactly the same as bread
>making or weekend laundry. And buying a top-'o-the-line micro-processor is
>no more going to make someone a capable biodieseler than dropping $10,000 on
>a carbon fibre bicycle is going to make someone a bicyclist of olympic
>calibre. Everything starts with the person, not the device. And everything
>from start to finish is dependant upon the person, not the device - bicycle
>or processor, it doesn't matter.
>
>All that is going to happen as a result of making "processors in a box"
>available to the masses - whether they be lacklustre or cradle-to-grave
>units - is a lot of collective waste, in time, in money and perhaps even
>lives and property.
>
>It's not the availability of "processors in a box," much less Mal-Wart
>priced processors that is going to solve the collective problem either.
>That's a consumerist mentality. "If I only had this I could do so much
>more." What solves problems is individual drive and determination, coupled
>with available resources. Well, the resources are all there. There's hardly
>a part in the world that cannot be had by an enthusiastic and/or dedicated
>biodieseler.
>
>And the drawings, blueprints and parts lists have been, are and will be
>available for those dance-class dads and soccer moms who have both the drive
>and the ideal to match. For those who don't know if they've got either or
>both, let them review the best information that's available and then work
>with someone to pull the ideal off if they still think it's a worthwhile
>venture. But buying or making available over-priced and/or half-baked units
>is not the answer.
>
>The answer is to provide the information and let the individual not only
>save several thousand dollars (Their child's inheritance? A new sand and
>gravel mine and used front end loader for the creek, compost heap and earth
>plaster gathering? Maybe three used Jettas and the ability to send three gas
>guzzlers to the crusher?), but become knowledgeable about the process and
>the processor that is going to take them there. That knowledge alone is
>going to be immeasurable in value when the first button is pushed, perhaps
>more than anyone could ever imagine.
>
>Time is as much money as money is time, with time often being of greater
>abundance than money.
>
>As for what you presume that I "don't understand," much less your
>misperceptions as to where my disdain lays?
>
>What I understand is that the entire world is struggling in some way shape
>or form to put bread on their plates, keep roofs over their heads and keep
>the mortgage company, landlord or warlord's foot out of the small of their
>backs.
>
>But I'm to be bitched at because I don't eagerly hasten to help put some
>inevitably, mindless

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Appal Energy]

Aw gee, Quinn,

So what is a person supposed to do now? Put you in the same category as a
dog with a dead fish - refusing to drop it, gnawing on it despite it's rank
odour and then carrying along the smell wherever you visit?

Sadly, you've all too effortlessly greased your meal with double standard
(one person's "satire" is okay but another's is not), accusationally
mislabeled the latter as mysoginistic and now after your effort to further
fan insult, you would like to leave the impression that a response to your
obnoxiousness would be nothing less than an attempt to "flame."

Forget one not being able to see the forest for the trees. You're having a
difficult enough time seeing your own reflection in a freshly polished
kitchen window for but one or two sprigs of herbs potted on the sill.

Might I suggest, rather than further expending your energies and those of
anyone else, that you just go out and waste a few grand on one of those
over-priced and under-equipped processors. In doing so you can make yourself
even more of a slave to a time clock in order to compensate for the wasted
money, leaving you with even less time to worry about reading or answering
e-mails, not to mention studying alternative construction materials, much
less the reduced cash flow to buy them.

Forget the opportunity costs of wasting your money in such a direction.
After all, who really cares that a $3,000 cheap-assed and inadequate,
off-the-shelf, retail processor would take the average owner around nine
years to recover their investment, even if the family auto gets 33 mpg and
the house is heated with oil - 18 years if you buy the $6,000 worthless
piece of piece of junk from Real Goods, not to mention all the "accessories"
that should have been thrown into a "system" in the first place.

So knock yourself out Quinn. Heck, pay with a credit card if you can so you
can set yourself back even further financially. And when all is said and
done? Well maybe it won't all be said or done.

If you're really lucky, maybe you can maim or kill yourself, or perhaps burn
down your or your neighbor's house as a result of your relying on a
no-thought-required, instantaneous-gratification, push-button processor,
rather than becoming personally familiar with the nuances and mechanics
required to do the job well.

If you're one of the lucky few that end up in that lot, you won't ever have
to worry again about having enough time for anything. You'll either be dead,
serving time in prison for wreckless disregard or a bond-servant for life
paying for your flippant carelessness.

Yessiree! That's what we're all designed for... to feed the machine.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message ----- 
From: "Quinn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


Todd,

FTR, I have read thru all the posts.  And responses.  And I have spent way
too much time in my life arguing with my-way-or-the-highway boys like you.
Your condescending sarcasm is there for all to see, even in the second line
of your last post, below.

We disagree as to the needs and future progress of the alternative fuels
movement.  My thoughts are stated in previous posts, succinctly, I might
add.  And thank you for that observation, I aim for succinctness.

[Search Results for "succinct"--
 1) maxim. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth
Edition. 2000.
...A succinct formulation of a fundamental principle, general truth, or rule
of conduct. See synonyms at saying. Middle English maxime, from Old French,
from Medieval...

2) succinct. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English Language:
Fourth Edition. 2000.
...sucácinctáest1. Characterized by clear, precise expression in few
ords;  ]

So, flame away if you simply can't contain yourself, I am through with this
topic and will not be engaging with you further.

Quinn

BTW, Keith, just below Todd states: "Dabbling with methanol, lye and heat
sources isn't exactly the same as bread making or weekend laundry."  Exactly
what Maud and I have been saying all along.


----- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


Quinn,

Please read the entirety of the posts and responses Quinn. Not simply those
one-sided snippits that fit the pounding of your heart at a given moment.

While I have no bone to pick with either Maud or you, the tone of her tomes
have been rather succinct, whether intended as tongue in cheek or not. And
you're following suit.

Push button convenience. Clothes-washer safe and reliable. Thought free.
Foolproof. And then assemble it all and give it to the masses...Yippee!

What ever happened to the end user having a

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Quinn]

Todd,

FTR, I have read thru all the posts.  And responses.  And I have spent way too 
much time in my life arguing with my-way-or-the-highway boys like you.  Your 
condescending sarcasm is there for all to see, even in the second line of your 
last post, below.

We disagree as to the needs and future progress of the alternative fuels 
movement.  My thoughts are stated in previous posts, succinctly, I might add.  
And thank you for that observation, I aim for succinctness. 
 
[Search Results for "succinct"--
 1) maxim. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth 
Edition. 2000. 
...A succinct formulation of a fundamental principle, general truth, or rule of 
conduct. See synonyms at saying. Middle English maxime, from Old French, from 
Medieval...

2) succinct. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth 
Edition. 2000. 
...sucácinctáest1. Characterized by clear, precise expression in few words;  ]

So, flame away if you simply can't contain yourself, I am through with this 
topic and will not be engaging with you further.

Quinn

BTW, Keith, just below Todd states: "Dabbling with methanol, lye and heat 
sources isn't exactly the same as bread making or weekend laundry."  Exactly 
what Maud and I have been saying all along.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


Quinn,

Please read the entirety of the posts and responses Quinn. Not simply those
one-sided snippits that fit the pounding of your heart at a given moment.

While I have no bone to pick with either Maud or you, the tone of her tomes
have been rather succinct, whether intended as tongue in cheek or not. And
you're following suit.

Push button convenience. Clothes-washer safe and reliable. Thought free.
Foolproof. And then assemble it all and give it to the masses...Yippee!

What ever happened to the end user having a clue clue as to what to do with
it, what they're actually getting into and whether they're going to stick
with it or not? "Build a production run of retail reactors/systems and they
will come, eh?"

Dabbling with methanol, lye and heat sources isn't exactly the same as bread
making or weekend laundry. And buying a top-'o-the-line micro-processor is
no more going to make someone a capable biodieseler than dropping $10,000 on
a carbon fibre bicycle is going to make someone a bicyclist of olympic
calibre. Everything starts with the person, not the device. And everything
from start to finish is dependant upon the person, not the device - bicycle
or processor, it doesn't matter.

All that is going to happen as a result of making "processors in a box"
available to the masses - whether they be lacklustre or cradle-to-grave
units - is a lot of collective waste, in time, in money and perhaps even
lives and property.

It's not the availability of "processors in a box," much less Mal-Wart
priced processors that is going to solve the collective problem either.
That's a consumerist mentality. "If I only had this I could do so much
more." What solves problems is individual drive and determination, coupled
with available resources. Well, the resources are all there. There's hardly
a part in the world that cannot be had by an enthusiastic and/or dedicated
biodieseler.

And the drawings, blueprints and parts lists have been, are and will be
available for those dance-class dads and soccer moms who have both the drive
and the ideal to match. For those who don't know if they've got either or
both, let them review the best information that's available and then work
with someone to pull the ideal off if they still think it's a worthwhile
venture. But buying or making available over-priced and/or half-baked units
is not the answer.

The answer is to provide the information and let the individual not only
save several thousand dollars (Their child's inheritance? A new sand and
gravel mine and used front end loader for the creek, compost heap and earth
plaster gathering? Maybe three used Jettas and the ability to send three gas
guzzlers to the crusher?), but become knowledgeable about the process and
the processor that is going to take them there. That knowledge alone is
going to be immeasurable in value when the first button is pushed, perhaps
more than anyone could ever imagine.

Time is as much money as money is time, with time often being of greater
abundance than money.

As for what you presume that I "don't understand," much less your
misperceptions as to where my disdain lays?

What I understand is that the entire world is struggling in some way shape
or form to put bread on their plates, keep roofs over their heads and keep
the mortgage company, landlord or warlord's foot out of the small of thei

RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Tan]

Keith,

I totally agree with you that the tests which Alex describe are unrealistic
and serves to kill bd's potential before it's realized for the benefit of
the few. It is sad to say but I believe politics is behind this or at least
those people who stand to gain by promoting a single brand to kill the
competition or to protect the big oil companies.

I am saddened that this is the state of my country.


Alex,
Why not approve bd for a certain load capacity? Engine and gear oils have
certain 'ratings'for different use(SA40..etc.) Why not adopt a similar
classification for bd and 2T oils.


Best,

Chris

=>-Original Message-
=>From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=>Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:57 PM
=>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
=>Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
=>
=>
=>Hi Aleks
=>
=>I think your tests have established a few things but I'm not sure how
=>useful it is. You've established what doesn't work with using
=>biodiesel as 2T oil, but I don't think you can extrapolate from these
=>tests that biodiesel doesn't work as 2T oil. Obviously it does work,
=>as more and more list members are reporting, though without long-term
=>results yet, but also without any reports of failures.
=>
=>What doesn't work, then, according to your tests, is using biodiesel
=>at the OEM recommended rate for 2T oil (50:1 or 40:1) at full engine
=>stress (WOT) and high heat (starting with a cold engine?) under test,
=>not road, conditions. What also apparently doesn't work is a
=>commercial company's use of biodiesel with a viscosifier, whatever
=>that may be, as 2T oil, I suppose also at the OEM spec rate, but I
=>think we'd need more detail on that to conclude anything much from it.
=>
=>If it's less viscous, why use the OEM rate? The viscosity issue has
=>been discussed here before, and a number of people using biodiesel as
=>2T oil double the OEM rate, mostly to 20:1. Chris's idea of not
=>pre-mixing it but letting the oil metering pump do the work and
=>compensate sounds like it could be a better approach. But again,
=>supplying only the OEM recommended rate probably wouldn't be enough
=>for that to work well.
=>
=>Maybe you'll say that the tests do match road conditions, citing a
=>125cc "Skylab" carrying 20 people up a mountain in the Philippines at
=>full throttle, but that's not normal use, it's not even rough use,
=>it's abuse - that motor is not going to last too long anyway, no
=>matter what oil you put in it. The use of recycled used motor oil in
=>2-strokes is a well-known problem, especially in the Philippines (I
=>think there have been UNEP reports on it), and if this work can help
=>to solve that problem, great, well done. But I don't think it's very
=>transferrable to normal road use by commuters who own their machines,
=>rather than rent-a-drivers who overload and don't have to care. It's
=>relevant of course, but I doubt it can be directly applied.
=>
=>What I've been trying to do with this issue (for a long time) is to
=>encourage cautious experiment and fend off scare stories of broken
=>motors that come without any detail from which something might be
=>learnt, or without any substantiation at all, not even any evidence
=>that it was the biodiesel that caused the problem. We need to find
=>out how best to use biodiesel as 2-stroke oil, as it's apparent that
=>it can be used. If you're seeing any resistance to using Senbel's Bio
=>2T or other such products, it would be because they're not a solution
=>for homebrewers, you have to buy them. If we find a good homebrew
=>solution, next would be biodiesel and ethanol, and we'll have a
=>biofuels answer for 2-strokes that's accessible to anybody.
=>
=>We now have a bunch of early reports that it works, plus scare
=>stories, plus your viscosifier report (which tells us little), and
=>your test results replicating abusive conditions, which set a limit,
=>but the limit is too high. What would a more realistic limit be,
=>reflecting normal use plus a reasonable safety margin?
=>
=>I don't think I agree with this assessment:
=>
=>>In the case of Frank, he
=>>is mixing 2T mineral oil with biodiesel since the viscosity of  2T is
=>>58~60 mm"/s at 40 C  while biodiesel is 3.5~5.0 mm"/s at 40 C  which is
=>>far too thin for   auto lube use which in effect will flow more as
=>>compared to the more viscous 2T oils. This is why he is experiencing
=>>bleeding when using pure biodiesel in the auto lube system or may also
=>>be experiencing elastomer incompatibility with biodiesel.
=>
=>It's more

RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

Hi Frank

Maybe we can help you? If you send me full specs of your Yamaha, and 
as much information as you can about the seals you need to replace, 
we might be able to get some help for you from Yamaha here in Japan. 
No guarantees, but we can try. It's much more likely that the 
biodiesel is eating the rubber than a viscosity issue.

>Hi Keith
>
>Alex
>Chris
>
>My 83 model Yamaha has a rubber seal at metering pump and every body
>know that how BD react with rubber. 1983 model was still using rubber
>material for a seal unlike 1990 model Yamaha dio used by Chris or
>tricycle motor that tried BD as a lube oil they are not experiencing any
>bleeding at metering pump. I stop mixing BD for 2T oil in my metering
>pump because of incompatability of two materials one is ester base and
>another is mineral base. I used premix at gas tank 1:20 proportion. And
>I'm looking for replacement part of metering seal that is not rubber as
>to date I cannot find that seal that will fit the 19983 model Yamaha
>which 20 years old piece of equipment.

Impressive - do 2-strokes usually last that long? What's the mileage?

>With regard to alex claim all I can say is that BD will work as lube oil
>for 2 stroke gasoline engine considering the potential o reducing smoke
>emission and cheap price of producing BD. Folks at rural or even at
>metro manila used the recycle mineral oil because it is cheap compared
>to price of 2T lube oil or senbel bio 2T oil, it is lower than 20-30 %
>market value of present commercial 2T oil. Just imagine a 20-30 % saving
>for poor tricycle driver is big for them. If BD will be available for
>them at the same price of recycle mineral oil who will used the recycle
>mineral oil that produce a trail of smoke on the road. If poor tricycle
>driver will be a given choice to select between BD and recycle mineral
>oil. I guess the outcome will be obvious.

Right, that's my view too. But we really need to know what the limits 
are and what to recommend as a good and safe solution, like what you 
say below about blends maybe. Please keep going Frank, it's important 
what you're doing, IMO, you and Chris and the others willing to take 
risks to find out what works best.

>Home brewer like me is not discourage to the claim of alex and time will
>come that BD can be accepted as a lube oil either pure or blended with
>ester-based additives.

Good luck Frank.

Best wishes

Keith


>Best wishes
>frank
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:57 PM
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
>
>Hi Aleks
>
>I think your tests have established a few things but I'm not sure how
>useful it is. You've established what doesn't work with using
>biodiesel as 2T oil, but I don't think you can extrapolate from these
>tests that biodiesel doesn't work as 2T oil. Obviously it does work,
>as more and more list members are reporting, though without long-term
>results yet, but also without any reports of failures.
>
>What doesn't work, then, according to your tests, is using biodiesel
>at the OEM recommended rate for 2T oil (50:1 or 40:1) at full engine
>stress (WOT) and high heat (starting with a cold engine?) under test,
>not road, conditions. What also apparently doesn't work is a
>commercial company's use of biodiesel with a viscosifier, whatever
>that may be, as 2T oil, I suppose also at the OEM spec rate, but I
>think we'd need more detail on that to conclude anything much from it.
>
>If it's less viscous, why use the OEM rate? The viscosity issue has
>been discussed here before, and a number of people using biodiesel as
>2T oil double the OEM rate, mostly to 20:1. Chris's idea of not
>pre-mixing it but letting the oil metering pump do the work and
>compensate sounds like it could be a better approach. But again,
>supplying only the OEM recommended rate probably wouldn't be enough
>for that to work well.
>
>Maybe you'll say that the tests do match road conditions, citing a
>125cc "Skylab" carrying 20 people up a mountain in the Philippines at
>full throttle, but that's not normal use, it's not even rough use,
>it's abuse - that motor is not going to last too long anyway, no
>matter what oil you put in it. The use of recycled used motor oil in
>2-strokes is a well-known problem, especially in the Philippines (I
>think there have been UNEP reports on it), and if this work can help
>to solve that problem, great, well done. But I don't think it's very
>transferrable to normal road use by commuters who own their machines,
>rather than rent-a-drivers who overlo

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Friedrich Friesinger]

Hi Quinn,
i am preparing a project of building Homes with double Logwalls from Larchwood.
Larchwood is here in Canada verry little used since it is hard to work.My goal 
is,to build houses with a K19 value.
please send me the adress of your alternative Building List.
my Adress is :  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
thanks for your trouble
best regards
Fritz 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Quinn 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


  Back off, Todd.  Your "break a nail/Virginia Slims" references are starting
  to sound quite misogynistic.

  Maud sounds like a real go-getter to me.  And I would put myself in that
  category also.  Neither of us (see previous posts) are afraid of "putting on
  our dungarees and getting dirty", not in the least.

  What you don't seem to understand is that there are those out there who have
  *other* interests also.  I belong to another list where people are
  researching alternative building-- exploring materials, constructing
  experimental walls/ shelters/ flooring, experimenting with roofing and
  insulation all using inexpensive, renewable materials.  This is work that I
  would consider of equal importance to the environment and our lives as
  alternative fuels.

  And yet not many of those people are *also* making their own fuel (though
  some of them might someday).  Why?  Because it takes all their time and
  energy to build and research and learn and teach alternative construction.

  Certainly those are people who would readily embrace alternative fuels  -and
  I doubt they're wearing chinos-  but their time is already spent researching
  and salvaging and experimenting with something else.

  It is a simple fact of life that we can't, each of us individually, grow the
  wheat to make the bread AND grow the soy to turn into fuel AND quarry the
  stone to build the house AND bake the bread AND process the soy into fuel
  AND actually build the house AND do it all with the depth of knowledge it
  would take to continue to refine the processes to be ever more efficient.
  Did I mention solar panels, wind turbines, waste management?

  What about someone who wanted to live environmentally sustainably but
  preferred to spend their time becoming proficient at the guitar or some such
  frivolousness, heaven forbid?  What about artists, singers, gymnasts?

  Does someone had to dig the ore, refine the metal, create the alloy, mold
  the parts, engineer and build the wind turbine to save energy and do it
  *all* themselves before they can not be considered a mindless push-button
  chino-wearer in your eyes?

  The simple fact is that Maud is right.  The majority of people around the
  world are never going to each make their own biofuel unless it becomes as
  easy as doing laundry in a home washer/ dryer set up.  Even creating
  community based canola-to-biodiesel operations in the US (that's United
  States, Keith) alone would require people who were thinking of things other
  than catalysts and converters- like remaking the entire paradigm of trade
  and redefining community.  Thank goodness there are people who *are*
  spending their time thinking of these things.

  In the meantime, there would be more of us shade-tree fuel makers if there
  were a set of plans, yes, down to the nuts & bolts.  And I see that, in
  fact, that is happening on the list.  And that is good.

  Never-owned-a-Cuisinart, don't-even-use-a-coffeemaker- Quinn

- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:35 AM
    Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


You know Maud,

There is a difference between claiming to be able to make bread from
  scratch
and then going to the kitchen and using your Champion bread processor.
  'Bout
like someone claiming to brew their own beer but using a "kit-in-a-can"
instead of whole grain.

"There are those that do," and then "there are those that don't." And
everyone knows precisely why people "don't."

What you're promoting is a philosophy of the impossible, which will
apparently make you happy but not until.

This is the processor that you're describing: "Make it so I don't have to
think. Give me a 10 year, 10,000 gallon warranty. Guarantee UL testing and
then make sure you're liabiility insurance is up to date so that when I
choose to not think, crack a nail or light my Virginia Slim in the
  presence
of an open (albeit colorfully wrapped in decorative warning colors,
conveniently sized and over-packaged) 32 ounce bottle of methanol, I can
  sue
your ass off!"

Build a processor that is as safe and efficient as a washing machine? In a
few ho

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Appal Energy]

Quinn,

Please read the entirety of the posts and responses Quinn. Not simply those
one-sided snippits that fit the pounding of your heart at a given moment.

While I have no bone to pick with either Maud or you, the tone of her tomes
have been rather succinct, whether intended as tongue in cheek or not. And
you're following suit.

Push button convenience. Clothes-washer safe and reliable. Thought free.
Foolproof. And then assemble it all and give it to the masses...Yippee!

What ever happened to the end user having a clue clue as to what to do with
it, what they're actually getting into and whether they're going to stick
with it or not? "Build a production run of retail reactors/systems and they
will come, eh?"

Dabbling with methanol, lye and heat sources isn't exactly the same as bread
making or weekend laundry. And buying a top-'o-the-line micro-processor is
no more going to make someone a capable biodieseler than dropping $10,000 on
a carbon fibre bicycle is going to make someone a bicyclist of olympic
calibre. Everything starts with the person, not the device. And everything
from start to finish is dependant upon the person, not the device - bicycle
or processor, it doesn't matter.

All that is going to happen as a result of making "processors in a box"
available to the masses - whether they be lacklustre or cradle-to-grave
units - is a lot of collective waste, in time, in money and perhaps even
lives and property.

It's not the availability of "processors in a box," much less Mal-Wart
priced processors that is going to solve the collective problem either.
That's a consumerist mentality. "If I only had this I could do so much
more." What solves problems is individual drive and determination, coupled
with available resources. Well, the resources are all there. There's hardly
a part in the world that cannot be had by an enthusiastic and/or dedicated
biodieseler.

And the drawings, blueprints and parts lists have been, are and will be
available for those dance-class dads and soccer moms who have both the drive
and the ideal to match. For those who don't know if they've got either or
both, let them review the best information that's available and then work
with someone to pull the ideal off if they still think it's a worthwhile
venture. But buying or making available over-priced and/or half-baked units
is not the answer.

The answer is to provide the information and let the individual not only
save several thousand dollars (Their child's inheritance? A new sand and
gravel mine and used front end loader for the creek, compost heap and earth
plaster gathering? Maybe three used Jettas and the ability to send three gas
guzzlers to the crusher?), but become knowledgeable about the process and
the processor that is going to take them there. That knowledge alone is
going to be immeasurable in value when the first button is pushed, perhaps
more than anyone could ever imagine.

Time is as much money as money is time, with time often being of greater
abundance than money.

As for what you presume that I "don't understand," much less your
misperceptions as to where my disdain lays?

What I understand is that the entire world is struggling in some way shape
or form to put bread on their plates, keep roofs over their heads and keep
the mortgage company, landlord or warlord's foot out of the small of their
backs.

But I'm to be bitched at because I don't eagerly hasten to help put some
inevitably, mindlessly-foolish and naive people at some financial or
physical peril, or perhaps in an early grave, all for the sake of a little
more Saran-Wrap/push-button convenience? No thank you. Humans are perfectly
capable of achieving that lot without my help.

And ordinarily this would be just about the spot where someone tells someone
else not simply to "back off," but to get the hell off, at least until he or
she understood just how simple it is to make biodiesel responsibly, whether
it be on the intentional community scale or personal, and just how criminal
it is to expect others to lay the gold carpet under their feet so they don't
have to conduct the first thought themselves.

But then wouldn't you be altogether familiar with such a thought process if
you're already in the midst of those things "alternative?"

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Quinn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


> Back off, Todd.  Your "break a nail/Virginia Slims" references are
starting
> to sound quite misogynistic.
>
> Maud sounds like a real go-getter to me.  And I would put myself in that
> category also.  Neither of us (see previous posts) are afraid of "putting
on
> our dungarees and getting dirty&qu

RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Franklin B. Del Rosario]

Hi Keith

Alex
Chris

My 83 model Yamaha has a rubber seal at metering pump and every body
know that how BD react with rubber. 1983 model was still using rubber
material for a seal unlike 1990 model Yamaha dio used by Chris or
tricycle motor that tried BD as a lube oil they are not experiencing any
bleeding at metering pump. I stop mixing BD for 2T oil in my metering
pump because of incompatability of two materials one is ester base and
another is mineral base. I used premix at gas tank 1:20 proportion. And
I'm looking for replacement part of metering seal that is not rubber as
to date I cannot find that seal that will fit the 19983 model Yamaha
which 20 years old piece of equipment.

With regard to alex claim all I can say is that BD will work as lube oil
for 2 stroke gasoline engine considering the potential o reducing smoke
emission and cheap price of producing BD. Folks at rural or even at
metro manila used the recycle mineral oil because it is cheap compared
to price of 2T lube oil or senbel bio 2T oil, it is lower than 20-30 %
market value of present commercial 2T oil. Just imagine a 20-30 % saving
for poor tricycle driver is big for them. If BD will be available for
them at the same price of recycle mineral oil who will used the recycle
mineral oil that produce a trail of smoke on the road. If poor tricycle
driver will be a given choice to select between BD and recycle mineral
oil. I guess the outcome will be obvious.

Home brewer like me is not discourage to the claim of alex and time will
come that BD can be accepted as a lube oil either pure or blended with
ester-based additives.

Best wishes
frank

-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:57 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

Hi Aleks

I think your tests have established a few things but I'm not sure how 
useful it is. You've established what doesn't work with using 
biodiesel as 2T oil, but I don't think you can extrapolate from these 
tests that biodiesel doesn't work as 2T oil. Obviously it does work, 
as more and more list members are reporting, though without long-term 
results yet, but also without any reports of failures.

What doesn't work, then, according to your tests, is using biodiesel 
at the OEM recommended rate for 2T oil (50:1 or 40:1) at full engine 
stress (WOT) and high heat (starting with a cold engine?) under test, 
not road, conditions. What also apparently doesn't work is a 
commercial company's use of biodiesel with a viscosifier, whatever 
that may be, as 2T oil, I suppose also at the OEM spec rate, but I 
think we'd need more detail on that to conclude anything much from it.

If it's less viscous, why use the OEM rate? The viscosity issue has 
been discussed here before, and a number of people using biodiesel as 
2T oil double the OEM rate, mostly to 20:1. Chris's idea of not 
pre-mixing it but letting the oil metering pump do the work and 
compensate sounds like it could be a better approach. But again, 
supplying only the OEM recommended rate probably wouldn't be enough 
for that to work well.

Maybe you'll say that the tests do match road conditions, citing a 
125cc "Skylab" carrying 20 people up a mountain in the Philippines at 
full throttle, but that's not normal use, it's not even rough use, 
it's abuse - that motor is not going to last too long anyway, no 
matter what oil you put in it. The use of recycled used motor oil in 
2-strokes is a well-known problem, especially in the Philippines (I 
think there have been UNEP reports on it), and if this work can help 
to solve that problem, great, well done. But I don't think it's very 
transferrable to normal road use by commuters who own their machines, 
rather than rent-a-drivers who overload and don't have to care. It's 
relevant of course, but I doubt it can be directly applied.

What I've been trying to do with this issue (for a long time) is to 
encourage cautious experiment and fend off scare stories of broken 
motors that come without any detail from which something might be 
learnt, or without any substantiation at all, not even any evidence 
that it was the biodiesel that caused the problem. We need to find 
out how best to use biodiesel as 2-stroke oil, as it's apparent that 
it can be used. If you're seeing any resistance to using Senbel's Bio 
2T or other such products, it would be because they're not a solution 
for homebrewers, you have to buy them. If we find a good homebrew 
solution, next would be biodiesel and ethanol, and we'll have a 
biofuels answer for 2-strokes that's accessible to anybody.

We now have a bunch of early reports that it works, plus scare 
stories, plus your viscosifier report (which tells us little), and 
your test results replicating ab

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

Hi Maud

>Yes, Keith, I really, really do want the design and specifications
>for a complete solution that includes an appropriate washing
>tank...and also a condenser. I am using the word "solution" in the
>marketing sense.

:-) "Marketing sense" is a bit of an oxymoron, IMNSHO. Buy now and save money.

Anyway, I hear what you're saying but I'm not persuaded. Could be 
always wrong, but I doubt you'll be seeing plans and specs and 
sourcing for a washing tank at JtF. A condenser, sure, that's a 
different matter.

>The FuelMeister may be both a poor fuel processor and a poor consumer
>value, but in an unemotional marketplace it is simply filling a void
>for a complete solution that requires no mechanical or design skills,
>scavenging, or sourcing to acquire and set up. In this country there
>are many people of conscience who could be attracted to processing
>their own biodiesel. If some percentage of those people purchase the
>FuelMeister out of ignorance and subsequently damage their vehicles
>with its poor quality results, how will that affect the biofuel
>movement in this country?

Maybe a bit like something I sometimes tell people about composting. 
With a growing conscience and awareness of the size of the footprint 
they trample onto the face of the planet, people start thinking about 
their share of the waste stream, the 3-R's (Reduce, Recycle, Reuse), 
about what their consumer dollar supports (all the devastations of 
agribusiness for one thing) and also the effects on their health, etc 
and so on, and decide a good place to start is to dig up some 
backyard, make a compost pile and grow some good organic veggies. 
Indeed, a very good place to start. They'll go to a lot of trouble 
learning how, building a box, assembling the materials they need, but 
if they follow a lot of the advice that's floating round on the Net 
and elsewhere they'll make it too wet. It'll go anaerobic and turn 
into a soggy, putrefying, stinking, unredeemable mess, possibly 
fraught with maggots - their good intentions to lessen their 
contribution to the waste stream have ended with a whole new waste 
disposal problem they don't know how to deal with. And that's most 
likely that: "I tried that, it didn't work." If they hadn't made it 
too wet and it had worked, who knows what they might have gone on to 
achieve? So I think that when you're dealing with the dreams, 
visions, aspirations of people of growing conscience and awareness 
there's no room for opportunistic junk like the Fuelmeister, 
marketing "solutions" or not.

>You're right about extreme thinking. It's not about either you buy a
>lousy FuelMeister OR you spend a lot of time doing research, piece
>together a custom designed processor out of scavenged parts, and
>spend time tweaking it until you get it right. I'm not recommending
>that you abandon the approach you are using on JtoF,

:-) That's good - 8,000 people or so have visited the processor pages 
this month so far, a good many of them will have found what they were 
looking for.

>I'm suggesting
>it makes sense to explore a supplement: in addition to the library of
>examples you currently offer, provide plans, specs, and sources for a
>series of generic  D-I-Y (do-it-yourself) processors.

Good plans are there to be had, some specs are there, more plans are 
coming with full specs, but I don't believe you're thinking clearly. 
Sources? You see Chris Tan, in the Philippines, having problems 
sourcing a mere bubbler? We have a Biofuels Supplies page, very 
popular, lots of good kit there, but despite the wonders of the 
global Internet and e-commerce, if you're buying internationally 
you're immediately at a huge disadvantage. Locally based lists and 
sites and groups might be able to deal with sourcing effectively, 
their job, not ours. And in fact JtF is quite clear about being much 
more interested in the Philippines than in the US or any of the OECD 
countries, that's our focus, 3rd World countries. These countries are 
at another disadvantage - OECD countries aren't only much richer, 
they have much better junk, all this stuff is so much easier to do 
there. In poor countries stuff gets used and reused until it's 
entirely dead, not just thrown away because hey, there's a new model 
out, or it got scratched or we didn't like the colour, there for the 
taking. OECD people are so spoiled already, why would we pander to an 
assumed helplessness on top of that?

>The spectrum of processor possibilities in the marketplace

What marketplace? You're suggesting I take on a whole big 
time-consuming job which I consider superfluous anyway and would 
definitely mean other useful and non-superfluous work not being done, 
for what reward, exactly?  This isn't a marketplace, we don't have 
customers, nobody pays us for our work, that's not why we do it, and 
we don't owe anything to anybody. And please consider this:

http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/26401/

That's not you, is it? I'm sure you have onl

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Quinn]

Ah, this is the kind of answer I love.  The 'what' and also the 'why'.
Thank you Mike.

Quinn

  - Original Message - 
  From: Mike Barnett
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


  In German, the name for stroke is "takt" and the name for a 2-stroke is
  Zwei-Takt or 2-Takt
  This is an alternative origin on the designated term 2T oil. Were the
  Germans using two takts more at the inception of this engine??

  Mike Barnett
  Eco designer, and foreign language fan...
  JAMAICA



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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Quinn]

Back off, Todd.  Your "break a nail/Virginia Slims" references are starting
to sound quite misogynistic.

Maud sounds like a real go-getter to me.  And I would put myself in that
category also.  Neither of us (see previous posts) are afraid of "putting on
our dungarees and getting dirty", not in the least.

What you don't seem to understand is that there are those out there who have
*other* interests also.  I belong to another list where people are
researching alternative building-- exploring materials, constructing
experimental walls/ shelters/ flooring, experimenting with roofing and
insulation all using inexpensive, renewable materials.  This is work that I
would consider of equal importance to the environment and our lives as
alternative fuels.

And yet not many of those people are *also* making their own fuel (though
some of them might someday).  Why?  Because it takes all their time and
energy to build and research and learn and teach alternative construction.

Certainly those are people who would readily embrace alternative fuels  -and
I doubt they're wearing chinos-  but their time is already spent researching
and salvaging and experimenting with something else.

It is a simple fact of life that we can't, each of us individually, grow the
wheat to make the bread AND grow the soy to turn into fuel AND quarry the
stone to build the house AND bake the bread AND process the soy into fuel
AND actually build the house AND do it all with the depth of knowledge it
would take to continue to refine the processes to be ever more efficient.
Did I mention solar panels, wind turbines, waste management?

What about someone who wanted to live environmentally sustainably but
preferred to spend their time becoming proficient at the guitar or some such
frivolousness, heaven forbid?  What about artists, singers, gymnasts?

Does someone had to dig the ore, refine the metal, create the alloy, mold
the parts, engineer and build the wind turbine to save energy and do it
*all* themselves before they can not be considered a mindless push-button
chino-wearer in your eyes?

The simple fact is that Maud is right.  The majority of people around the
world are never going to each make their own biofuel unless it becomes as
easy as doing laundry in a home washer/ dryer set up.  Even creating
community based canola-to-biodiesel operations in the US (that's United
States, Keith) alone would require people who were thinking of things other
than catalysts and converters- like remaking the entire paradigm of trade
and redefining community.  Thank goodness there are people who *are*
spending their time thinking of these things.

In the meantime, there would be more of us shade-tree fuel makers if there
were a set of plans, yes, down to the nuts & bolts.  And I see that, in
fact, that is happening on the list.  And that is good.

Never-owned-a-Cuisinart, don't-even-use-a-coffeemaker- Quinn

  - Original Message - 
  From: Appal Energy
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


  You know Maud,

  There is a difference between claiming to be able to make bread from
scratch
  and then going to the kitchen and using your Champion bread processor.
'Bout
  like someone claiming to brew their own beer but using a "kit-in-a-can"
  instead of whole grain.

  "There are those that do," and then "there are those that don't." And
  everyone knows precisely why people "don't."

  What you're promoting is a philosophy of the impossible, which will
  apparently make you happy but not until.

  This is the processor that you're describing: "Make it so I don't have to
  think. Give me a 10 year, 10,000 gallon warranty. Guarantee UL testing and
  then make sure you're liabiility insurance is up to date so that when I
  choose to not think, crack a nail or light my Virginia Slim in the
presence
  of an open (albeit colorfully wrapped in decorative warning colors,
  conveniently sized and over-packaged) 32 ounce bottle of methanol, I can
sue
  your ass off!"

  Build a processor that is as safe and efficient as a washing machine? In a
  few hours no less? In case you didn't notice, that's where things are
  heading. Although it's rather doubtful that the assembly line will be as
  large as a Whirlpool factory in an exploited and impoverished "free trade"
  region. Even then, there remains one minor gap in your suggestion. Someone
  still has to put the dungarees on and get dirty collecting the grease. I
  know (splutter, fuss!) that's not automatic!

  Okay already. Maybe you can pick up a ratchet and change your crankcase
oil
  faster than a terrier can pull a trailing hambone off an ox cart. But
you'll
  never be able to put your processor in the cubby hole next to you

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Quinn]

thanks Dan.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Dan Maker
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 5:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


  Quinn said:
  >
  > Can someone please tell me what "2T" means in regards to oil?  Is it
what we
  > here in GA call "2-cycle" oil?  Or am I way off base?

  Yes, that's what it is, many 2-cycle oils also have the 2T designation on
  the bottle.  There may be more to it, but in essence 2T is 2-cycle oil.

  Dan
  -- 
  Jack of all trades, master of none.
  Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
  http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Mike Barnett]

In German, the name for stroke is "takt" and the name for a 2-stroke is
Zwei-Takt or 2-Takt
This is an alternative origin on the designated term 2T oil. Were the
Germans using two takts more at the inception of this engine??

Mike Barnett
Eco designer, and foreign language fan...
JAMAICA




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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Appal Energy]

Maud,

"Lighthearted satire feining seriousness" is okay. But "serious satire
feining nothing" is not. Makes perfect sense to me.

May I suggest that when in Brittania you steer clear of the black humour?

Frankly, I would rather take the time and effort to blueprint and cost out a
micro-system down to the very last washer and grommet, then put it on the
net for free, letting anyone with a high enough IQ acquire the parts and
assemble them on their own, than to box up all the parts, mark them up
50%-100% and shuttle them out on a UPS wagon as if they were cases of
lolipops to whichever persons happened to have a high enough balance on
their credit cards.

In other words, or at least in part, "better to teach a [person] to fish
than to feed him [or her] forever."

And pray tell..., if a person doesn't have the stomach to get a little
dirty, what good is a push-button, $3,000 or $10,000 processor going to do
them? Are they somehow going to feel better about paying a high purchase
price when they all too quickly realize that getting grease on their Chinos
every other week is not exactly their cup of tea?

Putting the cart before the horse were anyone to ask, not "enabling" anyone.

The "enabling" part comes from creating an environment where others can do
for themselves, not doing everything for them. Selling over-priced
processors, no matter how cradle-to-grave they may be, only provides the
illusion of enablement - while fattening someone else's wallet.

But then again, perhaps the effort shouldn't even be made to point out the
difference, only to apologize for the fact that your holiday satire came off
a bit prim and push-button to one who is obviously a bit drier of wit.

Todd Swearingen
Non-distributor of a full line of
"Mindless-Do-My-Thinking-For-Me-Push-Button-Available-To-The-Masses-At-Mal-W
art-Prices biodiesel processors.

[Batteries and
Operator-Behind-The-Button-That-Is-Inimately-Familiar-With-Both-The-Process-
Of-Thinking-And-Fuel-Making sold separately.]


- Original Message - 
From: "Maud Essen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


> Hi, Todd!
>
> You missed the point of my satire...my Yeasted Roll Processor and my
> Loaf of Bread Processor are one and the same. They are my oven, not a
> bread machine! And I am happy to report I don't own a Cuisinart.
> Please let me know if you'd like to continue this discussion without
> further insult and sarcasm and I'll gladly rejoin you.
>
> For now, even as I type my yeasted rolls are rising and it's time to
> go put in a load of laundry before I start making a corn casserole.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving to all!
>
> Maud
> St. Louis, Missouri
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Maud Essen]

Hi, Todd!

You missed the point of my satire...my Yeasted Roll Processor and my 
Loaf of Bread Processor are one and the same. They are my oven, not a 
bread machine! And I am happy to report I don't own a Cuisinart. 
Please let me know if you'd like to continue this discussion without 
further insult and sarcasm and I'll gladly rejoin you.

For now, even as I type my yeasted rolls are rising and it's time to 
go put in a load of laundry before I start making a corn casserole.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Maud
St. Louis, Missouri

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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Maud Essen]

Yes, Keith, I really, really do want the design and specifications 
for a complete solution that includes an appropriate washing 
tank...and also a condenser. I am using the word "solution" in the 
marketing sense.

The FuelMeister may be both a poor fuel processor and a poor consumer 
value, but in an unemotional marketplace it is simply filling a void 
for a complete solution that requires no mechanical or design skills, 
scavenging, or sourcing to acquire and set up. In this country there 
are many people of conscience who could be attracted to processing 
their own biodiesel. If some percentage of those people purchase the 
FuelMeister out of ignorance and subsequently damage their vehicles 
with its poor quality results, how will that affect the biofuel 
movement in this country?

You're right about extreme thinking. It's not about either you buy a 
lousy FuelMeister OR you spend a lot of time doing research, piece 
together a custom designed processor out of scavenged parts, and 
spend time tweaking it until you get it right. I'm not recommending 
that you abandon the approach you are using on JtoF, I'm suggesting 
it makes sense to explore a supplement: in addition to the library of 
examples you currently offer, provide plans, specs, and sources for a 
series of generic  D-I-Y (do-it-yourself) processors.

The spectrum of processor possibilities in the marketplace could then include:
- Customized D-I-Y designs
- Select an approximate design for each component or sub-system
- Customize each design to accommodate locally available parts
- Acquire the parts (scavenge most at a variety of sources)
- Assemble the processor
- Standard D-I-Y designs for a complete solution
- Select the appropriate set of plans
- Acquire the parts (scavenge some or purchase most at a 
variety of sources)
- Assemble the processor
- Packaged D-I-Y kits for a complete solution (the FuelMeister and others)
- Acquire all the parts you need at once with a single purchase
- Assemble it

If some of us could work together to provide the Standard D-I-Y, 
everybody would be happy. As you point out, it's about empowerment. 
For some people, empowerment is about controlling the whole thing: 
the mechanics, the chemistry, and the results. For those people, a 
library of designs that accommodate local needs and parts 
availability is ideal.

For other people, empowerment is focused on the result...the ability, 
in a society where it is challenging to do without one, to drive a 
car that doesn't consume fossil fuel or contribute to wars of 
aggression. For these people and me (I also have a sincere desire to 
remake my life to be compatible with the sustainability described in 
the Earth Charter [http://www.earthcharter.org]), a choice of D-I-Y 
solutions sized by output capacity is ideal. And it would help to 
prevent people from making the mistake of purchasing a packaged 
solution that produces poor results.

My professional expertise is in instructional design...figuring out 
how to teach people how to do things they don't know how to do and, 
in some cases, don't want to do. I am seriously offering my services 
to help develop the documentation to support the Middle Way 
solutions. The end-user population that would be interested in the 
Tiny Tot Easy-Fuel, Junior Easy-Fuel, or Senior Easy-Fuel solutions 
will need accompanying set-up and processing instructions.

Finally, I sincerely thank you, Keith, for giving so much attention 
to what I ask and what I say. There's literally no one else in the 
world who bothers to pay that much attention to me. When I come to 
Japan two years from now, I hope to meet you and thank you in person 
for the important work you do.

Maud
St. Louis, Missouri

>Yes, Maud, but do you really, really seriously, require a design and
>specifications for a washing tank???
>
>  From your previous:
>
>>it needs an associated washing system. Could Mark's
>>posting of Sean Davis' stand-pipe system be an appropriate companion
>  >for the $150 Fumeless?
>>
>>http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=332&view=pr
>>evious&sid=a09397e0e325291fa2943e830a4151a0
>>
>>Or should it be even simpler?
>
>The main point about the stand-pipe tank is the stand-pipe, which can
>be comprehended at a glance. Neat and useful, but hardly obligatory
>(we use such a standpipe in the WVO tank to separate the crud, though
>actually we don't get any crud these days, good sources). Why would
>anyone need plans for a wash-tank? Good resources on technique, sure,
>why's and wherefore's, do's and don't's, that's all readily to hand,
>but a tank? Anything will do. Our first wash-tank was a plastic
>garbage bin. We softened a bit of the bottom near the edge with a
>lighter, cut a hole in it with a cutting knife, melted the edges a
>bit more and set a valve into the hole then let the plastic cool and
>set round the valve, secured it with epoxy putty, covered

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Appal Energy]

You know Maud,

There is a difference between claiming to be able to make bread from scratch
and then going to the kitchen and using your Champion bread processor. 'Bout
like someone claiming to brew their own beer but using a "kit-in-a-can"
instead of whole grain.

"There are those that do," and then "there are those that don't." And
everyone knows precisely why people "don't."

What you're promoting is a philosophy of the impossible, which will
apparently make you happy but not until.

This is the processor that you're describing: "Make it so I don't have to
think. Give me a 10 year, 10,000 gallon warranty. Guarantee UL testing and
then make sure you're liabiility insurance is up to date so that when I
choose to not think, crack a nail or light my Virginia Slim in the presence
of an open (albeit colorfully wrapped in decorative warning colors,
conveniently sized and over-packaged) 32 ounce bottle of methanol, I can sue
your ass off!"

Build a processor that is as safe and efficient as a washing machine? In a
few hours no less? In case you didn't notice, that's where things are
heading. Although it's rather doubtful that the assembly line will be as
large as a Whirlpool factory in an exploited and impoverished "free trade"
region. Even then, there remains one minor gap in your suggestion. Someone
still has to put the dungarees on and get dirty collecting the grease. I
know (splutter, fuss!) that's not automatic!

Okay already. Maybe you can pick up a ratchet and change your crankcase oil
faster than a terrier can pull a trailing hambone off an ox cart. But you'll
never be able to put your processor in the cubby hole next to your
breadmaker so that you can "inhale the fumes...safely." Reality is that it
will always be more Feng Shui lined up beside your lawnmower and wheelbarrow
than your Cuisinart.

In all do seriousness? (Which I thought I was already.) If it's push-button
convenience that you're looking for, you'll probably need to switch channels
to the QVC home shopping network, where beyond any doubt whatsoever someone
will eventually try and pawn off a "no brains, no batteries required"
processor. "It slices. It dices. And this Ronco/Ginsu biodiesel processor
can be yours for the remarkable price of 9,999 dollars and 99 cents." (Oil,
alcohol, catalysts, freight and liability insurance not included, of
course.)

(Oh damn! People already thought of that and are selling half-arsed and
incomplete processors on the internet for quadruple what they're worth.)

The information is out there Maud. Much of it you've already seen. The only
thing that is required of you in order to get that information to solidify
is to make a gallon or two of fuel on your kitchen counter top (right next
to your breadmaker if you like) and get familiar with the mechanics of
making and washing.

RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

>Keith,
>
>UP NCTS means University of the Philippines National Center for
>Transportation Studies. You can tell what it does by its name.
>
>Chris

Thankyou Chris.

Best

Keith



>
>=>-Original Message-
>=>From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>=>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 1:51 PM
>=>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>=>Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
>=>
>=>
>=>Hi Alex
>=>
>=>>Frank,
>=>>
>=>>Senbel has two products made from coconut for vehicle use. Estrol




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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

the Philippines and understands this
>practice. This is why there was a move to phase out 2T motorcycles
>around a year and a half ago until the government became aware of the
>Bio 2T's performance over mineral based oils because of the UP and TUP
>experiences. Their worry now is the failure of inferior formulations as
>reported by TUP that could give the program a black eye since they see
>Bio 2T as a way of allowing the continued use of 2T motorcycles.  Also,
>the University of Colorado is now developing and testing the
>retrofitting of the Orbital Engine technology for use in tricycles. They
>have two units shipped from the Philippines and are now doing the R & D.
>Their problem is still the lubricant which they have to inject in the
>lower part (crankcase) and which also has to come out of the pipe and
>using the Bio 2T looks very promising. By the way, I am involved in all
>of the testing by both Universities, the Department of Energy, and the
>Department of Science and Technology which include the Biodiesel
>program. I can keep you posted on the developments as they unfold.
>
>Regards,
>
>Alex
>
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Hi Alex
> >
> > >Frank,
> > >
> > >Senbel has two products made from coconut for vehicle use. Estrol
> > >Biodiesel and Estrol 2T which come from the same coconut base but are
> > >completely different products. The Bio 2T is cheaper than any of the
> > >petroleum based product in the market. You might be confusing the
> > >Biodiesel for the 2T. This will not work. Some groups have tried using
> > >Biodiesel as a 2T replacement and have damaged their engines.
> >
> > And some groups have tried using biodiesel as a 2T replacement and
> > have not damaged their engines. We need to know just what damages
> > engines and what doesn't. I don't think sweeping statements on either
> > side will serve - whether do it it works just fine or don't do it
> > you'll wreck your engine. Please post more information about these
> > tests, just how they were conducted, who by and on behalf of whom. I
> > think previously you said there was only damage at maximum stress?
> >
> > >Biodiesel
> > >does not have the lubricity needed for 2 stroke use. It's a diesel
> > >extender and a replacement at the same time. The formulation of the Bio
> > >2T is different though the initial process is the same. What's even more
> > >evident with Biosiesel  is the viscosity which is so much thinner than
> > >the Bio 2T and this is why you had to resort to mixing this with mineral
> > >based 2T. The Bio 2T can be used straight in your autolube system though
> > >adjusting the autolube  to give a 30~40:1 ratio would  significantly
> > >reduce visible smoke and  gaseous emissions. The UP NCTS test
> >
> > What's that mean please?
> >
> > More detail please Alex.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > >was based
> > >on a pre-mixed ratio of 40:1 and the autolube was disconnected.
> > >
> > >Alex
> > >
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm glad for your response regarding estrol brand bio 2T oil but
> > when I
> > > > inquire further as to what type of oil they are using for this bio 2T
> > > > they said that it is a coconut oil and the process is esterification
> > > > process by converting the virgin oil (SVO) to biodiesel or now biolube
> > > > oil. I'm glad they are producing this bio 2T but the price per
> > liter is
> > > > too high compared to price conventional 2T oil (petro based oil).
> > > > Biodiesel/biolube oil should not cost that much considering the
> > > > production cost and simplicity of process all is need are lot of
> > > > patience and caring to produce good quality biodiesel/biolube oil.
> > Well
> > > > I'm encourage again to go deeper on this task to bring biolube oil to
> > > > common people who used motorcycle as a basic mode of transportation on
> > > > rural areas.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the information
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:51 AM
> > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
> > > >
> > > > Franklin,
> > > >
> > >

RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Tan]

Alexander,

Could you elaborate on this:

=>Senbel decided to developed their own bio 2T
=>formulations and tested several  until they came up with the right
=>formulation before this was introduced in the market owing to the
=>experience of their buyers.

Of which buyers? Tricycle drivers? Senbel deals with oleo chemicals, right?
Do they also have automotive clients?

I tried contacting them once but they ditch me off.

=>Bio 2T has the same viscosity range as with other mineral or synthetic 2T
=>oils.

How do you suppose they did this? Mineral additives perhaps? Or they
selectively chose a single type of fatty acid to make bd from. I believe
they have to equipment segregate the different fatty acids from a feedstock.

 The
=>Philippine government is now using the TUP for these tests to qualify
=>all 2T products in the market before these can be sold because  of the
=>TUP and UP experience. The University of the Philippines had just
=>concluded their 2 year study at a cost of P1,500,000  ($30,000 US).

Any place I can find a copy of these studies?

Thanks,

Chris



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RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Tan]

Frank and Alexander,

I am currently testing bd as 2t oil on my sister's old Honda dio. I let the
oil metering pump do the work and not pre-mixed bd with gasoline. It has
been two weeks now and we haven't encountered any problems yet--no leaks, no
mechanical problems. In fact, the thing runs better than before. It used to
die down when idle. Now it just keeps on going and going and going...

I figured, there is no need to pre-mix it with the fuel. I think the
metering pump will automatically compensate for the amount of oil needed to
lubricate the crank shaft. Mineral 2t is viscous. The metering pump pumps a
certain fixed amount,x, of mineral oil per unit time. Because bd is less
viscous, it flows easier and the metering pump will be able to push >x of bd
per unit time, thus compensating for the lubricity needed.

To the members of the group, this is just me thinking. Please feel free to
jump in.

Alexander, are you from UP, too?

Chris



=>-Original Message-
=>From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=>Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:51 AM
=>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
=>Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
=>
=>
=>Franklin,
=>
=>You can buy Bio 2T from Senbel Fine Chemicals at telephone # (632)
=>850-6877 in the Philippines. They sell the Estrol brand of Bio 2T which
=>was tested by the National Center for Transport Studies of  the
=>University of the Philippines Engineering Department. This was proven to
=>be superior in performance and emission levels (gaseous and visible
=>smoke) against the biggest selling 2T mineral oil in the market. Best
=>used as a pre mix at 40:1. All autolubes of 2 stroke motorcycles in the
=>Philippines are set at 20:1 which is the reason for the high smoke and
=>accumulation of wasted unburned oil in the muffler system. For the same
=>pre-mix ratio as the mineral based lubricant, visible smoke was reduced
=>to almost nil with the use of Estrol Bio 2T
=>
=>Alex
=>
=>Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:
=>
=>> Hi to all
=>>
=>> I would like to report to the group that my 83 model Yamaha motorcycle
=>> was running good with BD as a lube oil. Smoke was reduce and no more oil
=>> dripping on my muffler. I sent my motorcycle for emission test center
=>> the result were as follow:
=>> Data reading
=>> CO2  2.90%
=>> CO   3.39%
=>> HC5396PPM
=>> O213.29%
=>> AFVR   20.95
=>> LAMBDA 1.44
=>>
=>> STANDARD GAS LIMIT
=>> CO2  20.00%
=>> CO   6.00%
=>> HC1PPM
=>> LAMBDA 1.00 +/- 0.99
=>> RESULTOK  PASSED
=>>
=>> The result of emission test using BD as a lube oil is very encouraging
=>> compared to 2T lubricating oil from oil producing company petrobased oil
=>>
=>> Pouring in 100% BD at auto lube oil tank had a problem of leaking oil
=>> seal at metering pump. I guess that BD is too thin or rubber seal worn.
=>> So I drain the BD out of auto lube oil tank and metering pump let it
=>> dry for a couple of days and mix BD with 2T oil 50:50 ratio and mix BD
=>> with gasoline tank at 5 % proportion. It works and I, m still using my
=>> motorcycle in and out of city proper with out smoke unlike before.
=>>
=>> Does anybody from the group that can give idea of how to replace this 2T
=>> oil with environmental friendly lubricating oil that can be blend with
=>> BD and  reduce the ill effect of BD to rubber seal?
=>>
=>> Regards
=>> frank
=>>
=>>
=>>
=>>
=>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
=>>
=>>
=>>
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=>>
=>>
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=>>
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RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Tan]

Alexander,

May I ask what you do? Are you related in any way to NCTS or to Senbel
perhaps?

Regards,
Chris





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RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Tan]

Keith,

UP NCTS means University of the Philippines National Center for
Transportation Studies. You can tell what it does by its name.

Chris


=>-Original Message-
=>From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=>Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 1:51 PM
=>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
=>Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
=>
=>
=>Hi Alex
=>
=>>Frank,
=>>
=>>Senbel has two products made from coconut for vehicle use. Estrol
=>>Biodiesel and Estrol 2T which come from the same coconut base but are
=>>completely different products. The Bio 2T is cheaper than any of the
=>>petroleum based product in the market. You might be confusing the
=>>Biodiesel for the 2T. This will not work. Some groups have tried using
=>>Biodiesel as a 2T replacement and have damaged their engines.
=>
=>And some groups have tried using biodiesel as a 2T replacement and
=>have not damaged their engines. We need to know just what damages
=>engines and what doesn't. I don't think sweeping statements on either
=>side will serve - whether do it it works just fine or don't do it
=>you'll wreck your engine. Please post more information about these
=>tests, just how they were conducted, who by and on behalf of whom. I
=>think previously you said there was only damage at maximum stress?
=>
=>>Biodiesel
=>>does not have the lubricity needed for 2 stroke use. It's a diesel
=>>extender and a replacement at the same time. The formulation of the Bio
=>>2T is different though the initial process is the same. What's even more
=>>evident with Biosiesel  is the viscosity which is so much thinner than
=>>the Bio 2T and this is why you had to resort to mixing this with mineral
=>>based 2T. The Bio 2T can be used straight in your autolube system though
=>>adjusting the autolube  to give a 30~40:1 ratio would  significantly
=>>reduce visible smoke and  gaseous emissions. The UP NCTS test
=>
=>What's that mean please?
=>
=>More detail please Alex.
=>
=>Best
=>
=>Keith
=>
=>>was based
=>>on a pre-mixed ratio of 40:1 and the autolube was disconnected.
=>>
=>>Alex
=>>
=>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
=>>
=>> > I'm glad for your response regarding estrol brand bio 2T oil
=>but when I
=>> > inquire further as to what type of oil they are using for this bio 2T
=>> > they said that it is a coconut oil and the process is esterification
=>> > process by converting the virgin oil (SVO) to biodiesel or now biolube
=>> > oil. I'm glad they are producing this bio 2T but the price
=>per liter is
=>> > too high compared to price conventional 2T oil (petro based oil).
=>> > Biodiesel/biolube oil should not cost that much considering the
=>> > production cost and simplicity of process all is need are lot of
=>> > patience and caring to produce good quality biodiesel/biolube
=>oil. Well
=>> > I'm encourage again to go deeper on this task to bring biolube oil to
=>> > common people who used motorcycle as a basic mode of transportation on
=>> > rural areas.
=>> >
=>> > Thanks for the information
=>> > Frank
=>> >
=>> > -Original Message-
=>> > From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:51 AM
=>> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
=>> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
=>> >
=>> > Franklin,
=>> >
=>> > You can buy Bio 2T from Senbel Fine Chemicals at telephone # (632)
=>> > 850-6877 in the Philippines. They sell the Estrol brand of
=>Bio 2T which
=>> > was tested by the National Center for Transport Studies of  the
=>> > University of the Philippines Engineering Department. This
=>was proven to
=>> >
=>> > be superior in performance and emission levels (gaseous and visible
=>> > smoke) against the biggest selling 2T mineral oil in the market. Best
=>> > used as a pre mix at 40:1. All autolubes of 2 stroke
=>motorcycles in the
=>> > Philippines are set at 20:1 which is the reason for the high smoke and
=>> > accumulation of wasted unburned oil in the muffler system.
=>For the same
=>> > pre-mix ratio as the mineral based lubricant, visible smoke
=>was reduced
=>> > to almost nil with the use of Estrol Bio 2T
=>> >
=>> > Alex
=>> >
=>> > Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:
=>> >
=>> > > Hi to all
=>> > >
=>> > > I would like to report to the group that my 83 mode

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

Yes, Maud, but do you really, really seriously, require a design and 
specifications for a washing tank???

 From your previous:

>it needs an associated washing system. Could Mark's
>posting of Sean Davis' stand-pipe system be an appropriate companion
>for the $150 Fumeless?
>
>http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=332&view=pr 
>evious&sid=a09397e0e325291fa2943e830a4151a0
>
>Or should it be even simpler?

The main point about the stand-pipe tank is the stand-pipe, which can 
be comprehended at a glance. Neat and useful, but hardly obligatory 
(we use such a standpipe in the WVO tank to separate the crud, though 
actually we don't get any crud these days, good sources). Why would 
anyone need plans for a wash-tank? Good resources on technique, sure, 
why's and wherefore's, do's and don't's, that's all readily to hand, 
but a tank? Anything will do. Our first wash-tank was a plastic 
garbage bin. We softened a bit of the bottom near the edge with a 
lighter, cut a hole in it with a cutting knife, melted the edges a 
bit more and set a valve into the hole then let the plastic cool and 
set round the valve, secured it with epoxy putty, covered the putty 
with silicon, then wired the bin firmly on top of a defunct 
steel-pipe four-legged stool with the seat missing, just high enough 
to get a 20-litre pail under the valve, bent two of the legs slightly 
so it inclines forward towards the drain, and taped an aquarium pump 
to the lid. It worked perfectly well. We're still using it as a 
glyc-settling tank.

>For neophytes you would have to specify how to integrate the
>two...some kind of plumbing and pump to move the fuel from one to the
>other.

Or just drain and fill with 20-litre oil cans until you figure out 
something better. Four bucketsful once a month, in your case?

>Now, to provide a complete solution that can compete with the
>Fuelmeister,

I think the Fuelmeister is an object of derision, not any sort of 
standard which has to be bettered. Any and all processors at our site 
do that in every way but one - they're not ready-mades.

You can, if you like, pay US$150,000-450,000 for a more sophisticated 
piece of junk than the Fuelmeister that has just that kind of 
approach in mind - like a washing-machine, just pour some stuff in 
the top, flip some switches and go shopping while it does everything 
for you, very convenient. These are the "processors" you find here in 
Japan. Well, they're what's sold here by a few companies, you'd have 
to look quite hard to actually find one, and even harder to find one 
that's actually being used. Couple of problems with them though... 
One is that they make sub-spec fuel - I have some of it here, murky 
stuff that'll never settle clear, poor conversion, very inadequately 
washed, and they only make 100 litres a day max. (20 gallons), and 
that only from virgin oil or the very best quality WVO, maybe the top 
5% of the WVO stream. This is another:

>list, and sources). And we must also find ways to make processing
>biodiesel as simple and mindless as it is to do a load of laundry.
>Only then will more of the very people who squander the majority of
>the world's natural resources (yes, my compatriots) will feel able
>and willing to process their own biodiesel and use it as their
>primary fuel.

Up to now biodiesel has been exactly nowhere in Japan. Only now is it 
slowly starting to emerge from the dark, and that's in spite of these 
processor companies, not because of them - it's apparently partly or 
largely because of us, the JtF approach to it, NOT the "laundry" 
approach. Mainly because of our Japanese website (lots of visitors!), 
the Japanese Biofuel mailing list, and the seminars we run every 
month (which bring people from all over Japan). Now people are making 
their own biodiesel, and the main message they're getting is that 
it's the process that matters, NOT the processor, and the process is 
free. That we can and do make high-quality fuel with processors that 
cost exactly nothing, and that we're NOT technicians of any kind, is 
exactly what seems to count most in encouraging people to try it 
themselves.

This is the essential step - it has to do with empowerment (some say 
the revelation that you can make your own fuel is at least as 
important as making it), not just consumerism. IMO this is the only 
way that a critical threshold-level of awareness and demand can be 
created for the quite profound changes required to have a chance of 
taking place - and that's NOT just replacing fossil-fuel use with 
biofuel use. With those changes, sustainable biofuels use - 
sustainable energy use generally - becomes generally available at the 
consumer level. It's happening, rather fast I think.

Another previous message of yours:

>That's just the problem...it's not that there's not enough
>information, it's that there's too much!

Too much information? What could that mean? There ain't no 
one-size-fits-all, people's circumstances and need

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

>Okay!  Big-time slap down!  That's why I hate to ask anything.  The
>"rocket scientist" thing?  It was a joke, darlin'.  A joke.
>
>Lighten up.
>
>Quinn

I know it was a joke. But it also carried a misconception that needed 
addressing, and isn't just confined to you. If you really think it 
was a big-time slap down, sufficient to discourage questions, then 
maybe you should lighten up. And...

>  (Where's "GA"? Never heard of that either.)

Best

Keith


>  - Original Message -
>  From: Keith Addison
>  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 6:39 PM
>  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
>
>
>  Hi Quinn
>
>  >Can someone please tell me what "2T" means in regards to oil?  Is it what
>we
>  >here in GA call "2-cycle" oil?  Or am I way off base?  Often I follow
>these
>  >threads with only the faintest glimpse of what is going on because of the
>  >'insider lingo.'   (Chemistry, engines, etc...)
>  >
>  >No, Keith, you don't have to be a rocket scientist.  But I bet it would
>  >help.  ; )
>
>  I bet it wouldn't. More likely it'd be largely or entirely
>  superfluous, perhaps even a hindrance - this is Appropriate
>  Technology stuff, KISS, which rocket science isn't too good at. Would
>  it help a whole lot in figuring how to clean up the wash-water in a
>  simple greywater system? Or rigging a washing tank from a 55-gal drum
>  or a plastic garbage bucket or defunct washing machine whatever you
>  happen to find lying about the place? This stuff isn't much more
>  complicated than baking bread, if any. I'm a journalist, not a
>  techie, I don't have any technical training of any kind, I think the
>  same applies to many/most biofuellers. It doesn't stop you from
>  learning. There's a lot to learn (as there is about baking bread),
>  but I don't think there's anything at our website that you won't be
>  able to understand because you don't have technical qualifications -
>  understand and do. "We're not chemists, and if we can make it anyone
>  can," it says at Journey to Forever. "Anybody can make biodiesel.
>  It's easy, you can make it in your kitchen... " "It's all quite
>  simple really, thousands of people are doing it, very few of them are
>  chemists or technicians, and there's nothing a layman can't
>  understand, and do, and do it well." We wrote that four and a half
>  years ago, just as true now as it was then. Biodiesel certainly isn't
>  my main interest in life (nor JtF's either, come to that), if I can
>  do it, so can you.
>
>  Anyway, it's not "insider lingo", there's not too much of that here.
>  For instance, I guess this would be a dumb question for an American:
>  what's "2-cycle" oil? (Is that what you use on a bicycle? Do you need
>  a different type of oil for tricycles?) Do you know what "DERV" is?
>  It's not insider tech-jargon, everybody in Britain knows what DERV is
>  - petroleum diesel fuel (though it stands for Diesel Engine Road
>  Vehicle). Do you know what an MoT is? This is the global Internet,
>  that's all, and it's a global subject.
>
>  I just got totally confused on another list, and another topic,
>  because an American there was talking about TN and sustainability.
>  What kind of organic growing system is "TN"? Never heard of it.
>  (Where's "GA"? Never heard of that either.)
>
>  If you search for "2T oil" at Google, the first hit you get tells you
>  it's 2-stroke oil. Do you talk about 2-strokes in the US, or only
>  2-cycle?
>
>  Best
>
>  Keith
>
>
>  >Thanks,,
>  >Quinn
>  >
>  >  - Original Message -
>  >  From: Alexander P. Loinaz
>  >  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  >  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 8:43 AM
>  >  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
>  >
>  >
>  >  Hi Keith,
>  >
>  >  The use of biodiesel as 2T replacement was first used by a group when


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BD for everyone [was - Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine]

[Dan Maker]

Maud Essen said:



> Until the day arrives that we can go to any appliance store to 
> purchase the Biodiesel Processor that meets our family's needs, we 



Well said, and to that end, I've been looking into and researching on
continuous process, relatively low volume, high quality processes.  Both
ethanol and BD.  The ethanol is cake, realitivly speaking.  It's done
I just need to scale it down.  The BD is another matter, I'm making
progress, but it's still at the theory stage.  And who knows, it may
never get past that.

My goal is to build a continuous process system that can be run unatended
most of the time, requiring only raw material be fed in at one end, and
finished product, and any processed waste, be removed at the other end.

It's a pipe dream, but I'm having fun working on it, and who knows, it may
actually work.

Dan
-- 
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard

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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Quinn]

Okay!  Big-time slap down!  That's why I hate to ask anything.  The
"rocket scientist" thing?  It was a joke, darlin'.  A joke.

Lighten up.

Quinn

  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 6:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


  Hi Quinn

  >Can someone please tell me what "2T" means in regards to oil?  Is it what
we
  >here in GA call "2-cycle" oil?  Or am I way off base?  Often I follow
these
  >threads with only the faintest glimpse of what is going on because of the
  >'insider lingo.'   (Chemistry, engines, etc...)
  >
  >No, Keith, you don't have to be a rocket scientist.  But I bet it would
  >help.  ; )

  I bet it wouldn't. More likely it'd be largely or entirely
  superfluous, perhaps even a hindrance - this is Appropriate
  Technology stuff, KISS, which rocket science isn't too good at. Would
  it help a whole lot in figuring how to clean up the wash-water in a
  simple greywater system? Or rigging a washing tank from a 55-gal drum
  or a plastic garbage bucket or defunct washing machine whatever you
  happen to find lying about the place? This stuff isn't much more
  complicated than baking bread, if any. I'm a journalist, not a
  techie, I don't have any technical training of any kind, I think the
  same applies to many/most biofuellers. It doesn't stop you from
  learning. There's a lot to learn (as there is about baking bread),
  but I don't think there's anything at our website that you won't be
  able to understand because you don't have technical qualifications -
  understand and do. "We're not chemists, and if we can make it anyone
  can," it says at Journey to Forever. "Anybody can make biodiesel.
  It's easy, you can make it in your kitchen... " "It's all quite
  simple really, thousands of people are doing it, very few of them are
  chemists or technicians, and there's nothing a layman can't
  understand, and do, and do it well." We wrote that four and a half
  years ago, just as true now as it was then. Biodiesel certainly isn't
  my main interest in life (nor JtF's either, come to that), if I can
  do it, so can you.

  Anyway, it's not "insider lingo", there's not too much of that here.
  For instance, I guess this would be a dumb question for an American:
  what's "2-cycle" oil? (Is that what you use on a bicycle? Do you need
  a different type of oil for tricycles?) Do you know what "DERV" is?
  It's not insider tech-jargon, everybody in Britain knows what DERV is
  - petroleum diesel fuel (though it stands for Diesel Engine Road
  Vehicle). Do you know what an MoT is? This is the global Internet,
  that's all, and it's a global subject.

  I just got totally confused on another list, and another topic,
  because an American there was talking about TN and sustainability.
  What kind of organic growing system is "TN"? Never heard of it.
  (Where's "GA"? Never heard of that either.)

  If you search for "2T oil" at Google, the first hit you get tells you
  it's 2-stroke oil. Do you talk about 2-strokes in the US, or only
  2-cycle?

  Best

  Keith


  >Thanks,,
  >Quinn
  >
  >  - Original Message -
  >  From: Alexander P. Loinaz
  >  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  >  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 8:43 AM
  >  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
  >
  >
  >  Hi Keith,
  >
  >  The use of biodiesel as 2T replacement was first used by a group when


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Maud Essen]

Among other things, I can make bread and tofu from scratch. In fact, 
tomorrow morning I'm going to bake special rolls for the American 
holiday Thanksgiving.

Fortunately, before I start baking tomorrow morning I don't have to 
figure out how to design a Yeasted Roll Processor that will later 
scale up to a Loaf of Bread Processor. I don't have to research 
sources of the flour and yeast I need, nor pay hazmat charges for 
shipping these raw ingredients, nor fake an industrial address 
because they can't be shipped to a residence. I can store my 
ingredients and my Yeasted Roll Processor safely in my home rather 
than in a locked outbuilding. And when I pull my rolls out of the 
Yeasted Roll Processor, I will be able to inhale the fumes both 
safely and with pleasure.

Before I leave the house tomorrow to take my freshly baked rolls over 
to my family dinner, I will probably start another chemical process 
before I go...and let it proceed unmonitored! Yes, I will toss a load 
in the Laundry Processor, measure in the chemicals without bothering 
to get out my triple beam balance, and start it up as I leave the 
house. By the time I get home my clothes will have been washed, 
rinsed, and wrung out. And I won't have to distill the alcohol out of 
the rinse water or find a sustainable way to dispose of an unwanted 
byproduct.

Just like baking bread and making tofu, processing biodiesel is easy 
and fun for some. But that doesn't mean that it isn't alien, 
complicated, and intimidating to others.

Until the day arrives that we can go to any appliance store to 
purchase the Biodiesel Processor that meets our family's needs, we 
must work together to figure out how to make it as easy as possible 
to build a one that is as safe and efficient as a washing machine in 
a matter of hours (which means providing a standard design, parts 
list, and sources). And we must also find ways to make processing 
biodiesel as simple and mindless as it is to do a load of laundry. 
Only then will more of the very people who squander the majority of 
the world's natural resources (yes, my compatriots) will feel able 
and willing to process their own biodiesel and use it as their 
primary fuel.

Maud
St. Louis, Missouri


Quinn said:


>  >No, Keith, you don't have to be a rocket scientist.  But I bet it would
>>help.  ; )

Keith said:

>I bet it wouldn't. More likely it'd be largely or entirely
>superfluous, perhaps even a hindrance - this is Appropriate
>Technology stuff, KISS, which rocket science isn't too good at. Would
>it help a whole lot in figuring how to clean up the wash-water in a
>simple greywater system? Or rigging a washing tank from a 55-gal drum
>or a plastic garbage bucket or defunct washing machine whatever you
>happen to find lying about the place? This stuff isn't much more
>complicated than baking bread, if any. I'm a journalist, not a
>techie, I don't have any technical training of any kind, I think the


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

Hi Quinn

>Can someone please tell me what "2T" means in regards to oil?  Is it what we
>here in GA call "2-cycle" oil?  Or am I way off base?  Often I follow these
>threads with only the faintest glimpse of what is going on because of the
>'insider lingo.'   (Chemistry, engines, etc...)
>
>No, Keith, you don't have to be a rocket scientist.  But I bet it would
>help.  ; )

I bet it wouldn't. More likely it'd be largely or entirely 
superfluous, perhaps even a hindrance - this is Appropriate 
Technology stuff, KISS, which rocket science isn't too good at. Would 
it help a whole lot in figuring how to clean up the wash-water in a 
simple greywater system? Or rigging a washing tank from a 55-gal drum 
or a plastic garbage bucket or defunct washing machine whatever you 
happen to find lying about the place? This stuff isn't much more 
complicated than baking bread, if any. I'm a journalist, not a 
techie, I don't have any technical training of any kind, I think the 
same applies to many/most biofuellers. It doesn't stop you from 
learning. There's a lot to learn (as there is about baking bread), 
but I don't think there's anything at our website that you won't be 
able to understand because you don't have technical qualifications - 
understand and do. "We're not chemists, and if we can make it anyone 
can," it says at Journey to Forever. "Anybody can make biodiesel. 
It's easy, you can make it in your kitchen... " "It's all quite 
simple really, thousands of people are doing it, very few of them are 
chemists or technicians, and there's nothing a layman can't 
understand, and do, and do it well." We wrote that four and a half 
years ago, just as true now as it was then. Biodiesel certainly isn't 
my main interest in life (nor JtF's either, come to that), if I can 
do it, so can you.

Anyway, it's not "insider lingo", there's not too much of that here. 
For instance, I guess this would be a dumb question for an American: 
what's "2-cycle" oil? (Is that what you use on a bicycle? Do you need 
a different type of oil for tricycles?) Do you know what "DERV" is? 
It's not insider tech-jargon, everybody in Britain knows what DERV is 
- petroleum diesel fuel (though it stands for Diesel Engine Road 
Vehicle). Do you know what an MoT is? This is the global Internet, 
that's all, and it's a global subject.

I just got totally confused on another list, and another topic, 
because an American there was talking about TN and sustainability. 
What kind of organic growing system is "TN"? Never heard of it. 
(Where's "GA"? Never heard of that either.)

If you search for "2T oil" at Google, the first hit you get tells you 
it's 2-stroke oil. Do you talk about 2-strokes in the US, or only 
2-cycle?

Best

Keith


>Thanks,,
>Quinn
>
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Alexander P. Loinaz
>  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 8:43 AM
>  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
>
>
>  Hi Keith,
>
>  The use of biodiesel as 2T replacement was first used by a group when


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Dan Maker]

Quinn said:
> 
> Can someone please tell me what "2T" means in regards to oil?  Is it what we
> here in GA call "2-cycle" oil?  Or am I way off base?

Yes, that's what it is, many 2-cycle oils also have the 2T designation on
the bottle.  There may be more to it, but in essence 2T is 2-cycle oil.

Dan
-- 
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard

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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Quinn]

Can someone please tell me what "2T" means in regards to oil?  Is it what we
here in GA call "2-cycle" oil?  Or am I way off base?  Often I follow these
threads with only the faintest glimpse of what is going on because of the
'insider lingo.'   (Chemistry, engines, etc...)

No, Keith, you don't have to be a rocket scientist.  But I bet it would
help.  ; )

Thanks,,
Quinn

  - Original Message - 
  From: Alexander P. Loinaz
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 8:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine


  Hi Keith,

  The use of biodiesel as 2T replacement was first used by a group when


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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Alexander P. Loinaz]

on on the mineral 2T , the acids and other 
contaminants in the used oils, or with water contamination in the auto 
lube system since handling is always a problem among tricycle drivers. 
These are now being investigated. Majority of drivers don't own the 
units but just drive them. This is why many resort to using discarded 
engine oils that are made to stand so that the top is only  used as 
sediments  settle in the bottom. They are usually just given away since 
disposal of used oil is a problem. This is also what was found in the UP 
study which may be released by the Department of Science and Technology 
by mid December.  Frank is from the Philippines and understands this 
practice. This is why there was a move to phase out 2T motorcycles 
around a year and a half ago until the government became aware of the 
Bio 2T's performance over mineral based oils because of the UP and TUP 
experiences. Their worry now is the failure of inferior formulations as 
reported by TUP that could give the program a black eye since they see  
Bio 2T as a way of allowing the continued use of 2T motorcycles.  Also, 
the University of Colorado is now developing and testing the 
retrofitting of the Orbital Engine technology for use in tricycles. They 
have two units shipped from the Philippines and are now doing the R & D. 
Their problem is still the lubricant which they have to inject in the 
lower part (crankcase) and which also has to come out of the pipe and 
using the Bio 2T looks very promising. By the way, I am involved in all 
of the testing by both Universities, the Department of Energy, and the 
Department of Science and Technology which include the Biodiesel 
program. I can keep you posted on the developments as they unfold.

Regards,

Alex


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi Alex
>
> >Frank,
> >
> >Senbel has two products made from coconut for vehicle use. Estrol
> >Biodiesel and Estrol 2T which come from the same coconut base but are
> >completely different products. The Bio 2T is cheaper than any of the
> >petroleum based product in the market. You might be confusing the
> >Biodiesel for the 2T. This will not work. Some groups have tried using
> >Biodiesel as a 2T replacement and have damaged their engines.
>
> And some groups have tried using biodiesel as a 2T replacement and
> have not damaged their engines. We need to know just what damages
> engines and what doesn't. I don't think sweeping statements on either
> side will serve - whether do it it works just fine or don't do it
> you'll wreck your engine. Please post more information about these
> tests, just how they were conducted, who by and on behalf of whom. I
> think previously you said there was only damage at maximum stress?
>
> >Biodiesel
> >does not have the lubricity needed for 2 stroke use. It's a diesel
> >extender and a replacement at the same time. The formulation of the Bio
> >2T is different though the initial process is the same. What's even more
> >evident with Biosiesel  is the viscosity which is so much thinner than
> >the Bio 2T and this is why you had to resort to mixing this with mineral
> >based 2T. The Bio 2T can be used straight in your autolube system though
> >adjusting the autolube  to give a 30~40:1 ratio would  significantly
> >reduce visible smoke and  gaseous emissions. The UP NCTS test
>
> What's that mean please?
>
> More detail please Alex.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
> >was based
> >on a pre-mixed ratio of 40:1 and the autolube was disconnected.
> >
> >Alex
> >
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > I'm glad for your response regarding estrol brand bio 2T oil but 
> when I
> > > inquire further as to what type of oil they are using for this bio 2T
> > > they said that it is a coconut oil and the process is esterification
> > > process by converting the virgin oil (SVO) to biodiesel or now biolube
> > > oil. I'm glad they are producing this bio 2T but the price per 
> liter is
> > > too high compared to price conventional 2T oil (petro based oil).
> > > Biodiesel/biolube oil should not cost that much considering the
> > > production cost and simplicity of process all is need are lot of
> > > patience and caring to produce good quality biodiesel/biolube oil. 
> Well
> > > I'm encourage again to go deeper on this task to bring biolube oil to
> > > common people who used motorcycle as a basic mode of transportation on
> > > rural areas.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the information
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Tues

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Keith Addison]

Hi Alex

>Frank,
>
>Senbel has two products made from coconut for vehicle use. Estrol
>Biodiesel and Estrol 2T which come from the same coconut base but are
>completely different products. The Bio 2T is cheaper than any of the
>petroleum based product in the market. You might be confusing the
>Biodiesel for the 2T. This will not work. Some groups have tried using
>Biodiesel as a 2T replacement and have damaged their engines.

And some groups have tried using biodiesel as a 2T replacement and 
have not damaged their engines. We need to know just what damages 
engines and what doesn't. I don't think sweeping statements on either 
side will serve - whether do it it works just fine or don't do it 
you'll wreck your engine. Please post more information about these 
tests, just how they were conducted, who by and on behalf of whom. I 
think previously you said there was only damage at maximum stress?

>Biodiesel
>does not have the lubricity needed for 2 stroke use. It's a diesel
>extender and a replacement at the same time. The formulation of the Bio
>2T is different though the initial process is the same. What's even more
>evident with Biosiesel  is the viscosity which is so much thinner than
>the Bio 2T and this is why you had to resort to mixing this with mineral
>based 2T. The Bio 2T can be used straight in your autolube system though
>adjusting the autolube  to give a 30~40:1 ratio would  significantly
>reduce visible smoke and  gaseous emissions. The UP NCTS test

What's that mean please?

More detail please Alex.

Best

Keith

>was based
>on a pre-mixed ratio of 40:1 and the autolube was disconnected.
>
>Alex
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I'm glad for your response regarding estrol brand bio 2T oil but when I
> > inquire further as to what type of oil they are using for this bio 2T
> > they said that it is a coconut oil and the process is esterification
> > process by converting the virgin oil (SVO) to biodiesel or now biolube
> > oil. I'm glad they are producing this bio 2T but the price per liter is
> > too high compared to price conventional 2T oil (petro based oil).
> > Biodiesel/biolube oil should not cost that much considering the
> > production cost and simplicity of process all is need are lot of
> > patience and caring to produce good quality biodiesel/biolube oil. Well
> > I'm encourage again to go deeper on this task to bring biolube oil to
> > common people who used motorcycle as a basic mode of transportation on
> > rural areas.
> >
> > Thanks for the information
> > Frank
> >
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:51 AM
> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
> >
> > Franklin,
> >
> > You can buy Bio 2T from Senbel Fine Chemicals at telephone # (632)
> > 850-6877 in the Philippines. They sell the Estrol brand of Bio 2T which
> > was tested by the National Center for Transport Studies of  the
> > University of the Philippines Engineering Department. This was proven to
> >
> > be superior in performance and emission levels (gaseous and visible
> > smoke) against the biggest selling 2T mineral oil in the market. Best
> > used as a pre mix at 40:1. All autolubes of 2 stroke motorcycles in the
> > Philippines are set at 20:1 which is the reason for the high smoke and
> > accumulation of wasted unburned oil in the muffler system. For the same
> > pre-mix ratio as the mineral based lubricant, visible smoke was reduced
> > to almost nil with the use of Estrol Bio 2T
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:
> >
> > > Hi to all
> > >
> > > I would like to report to the group that my 83 model Yamaha motorcycle
> > > was running good with BD as a lube oil. Smoke was reduce and no more
> > oil
> > > dripping on my muffler. I sent my motorcycle for emission test center
> > > the result were as follow:
> > > Data reading
> > > CO2  2.90%
> > > CO   3.39%
> > > HC5396PPM
> > > O213.29%
> > > AFVR   20.95
> > > LAMBDA 1.44
> > >
> > > STANDARD GAS LIMIT
> > > CO2  20.00%
> > > CO   6.00%
> > > HC1PPM
> > > LAMBDA 1.00 +/- 0.99
> > > RESULTOK  PASSED
> > >
> > > The result of emission test using BD as a lube oil is very encouraging
> > > compared to 2T lubricating oil from oil producing company petrobased
> > 

Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Alexander P. Loinaz]

Frank,

Senbel has two products made from coconut for vehicle use. Estrol 
Biodiesel and Estrol 2T which come from the same coconut base but are 
completely different products. The Bio 2T is cheaper than any of the 
petroleum based product in the market. You might be confusing the 
Biodiesel for the 2T. This will not work. Some groups have tried using 
Biodiesel as a 2T replacement and have damaged their engines. Biodiesel 
does not have the lubricity needed for 2 stroke use. It's a diesel 
extender and a replacement at the same time. The formulation of the Bio 
2T is different though the initial process is the same. What's even more 
evident with Biosiesel  is the viscosity which is so much thinner than 
the Bio 2T and this is why you had to resort to mixing this with mineral 
based 2T. The Bio 2T can be used straight in your autolube system though 
adjusting the autolube  to give a 30~40:1 ratio would  significantly  
reduce visible smoke and  gaseous emissions. The UP NCTS test was based 
on a pre-mixed ratio of 40:1 and the autolube was disconnected.

Alex

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I'm glad for your response regarding estrol brand bio 2T oil but when I
> inquire further as to what type of oil they are using for this bio 2T
> they said that it is a coconut oil and the process is esterification
> process by converting the virgin oil (SVO) to biodiesel or now biolube
> oil. I'm glad they are producing this bio 2T but the price per liter is
> too high compared to price conventional 2T oil (petro based oil).
> Biodiesel/biolube oil should not cost that much considering the
> production cost and simplicity of process all is need are lot of
> patience and caring to produce good quality biodiesel/biolube oil. Well
> I'm encourage again to go deeper on this task to bring biolube oil to
> common people who used motorcycle as a basic mode of transportation on
> rural areas.
>
> Thanks for the information
> Frank   
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:51 AM
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine
>
> Franklin,
>
> You can buy Bio 2T from Senbel Fine Chemicals at telephone # (632)
> 850-6877 in the Philippines. They sell the Estrol brand of Bio 2T which
> was tested by the National Center for Transport Studies of  the
> University of the Philippines Engineering Department. This was proven to
>
> be superior in performance and emission levels (gaseous and visible
> smoke) against the biggest selling 2T mineral oil in the market. Best
> used as a pre mix at 40:1. All autolubes of 2 stroke motorcycles in the
> Philippines are set at 20:1 which is the reason for the high smoke and
> accumulation of wasted unburned oil in the muffler system. For the same
> pre-mix ratio as the mineral based lubricant, visible smoke was reduced
> to almost nil with the use of Estrol Bio 2T
>
> Alex
>
> Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:
>
> > Hi to all
> >
> > I would like to report to the group that my 83 model Yamaha motorcycle
> > was running good with BD as a lube oil. Smoke was reduce and no more
> oil
> > dripping on my muffler. I sent my motorcycle for emission test center
> > the result were as follow:
> > Data reading
> > CO2  2.90%
> > CO   3.39%
> > HC5396PPM
> > O213.29%
> > AFVR   20.95
> > LAMBDA 1.44
> >
> > STANDARD GAS LIMIT
> > CO2  20.00%
> > CO   6.00%
> > HC1PPM
> > LAMBDA 1.00 +/- 0.99
> > RESULTOK  PASSED
> >
> > The result of emission test using BD as a lube oil is very encouraging
> > compared to 2T lubricating oil from oil producing company petrobased
> oil
> >
> > Pouring in 100% BD at auto lube oil tank had a problem of leaking oil
> > seal at metering pump. I guess that BD is too thin or rubber seal
> worn.
> > So I drain the BD out of auto lube oil tank and metering pump let it
> > dry for a couple of days and mix BD with 2T oil 50:50 ratio and mix BD
> > with gasoline tank at 5 % proportion. It works and I, m still using my
> > motorcycle in and out of city proper with out smoke unlike before.
> >
> > Does anybody from the group that can give idea of how to replace this
> 2T
> > oil with environmental friendly lubricating oil that can be blend with
> > BD and  reduce the ill effect of BD to rubber seal?
> >
> > Regards
> > frank
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >

RE: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Franklin B. Del Rosario]

I'm glad for your response regarding estrol brand bio 2T oil but when I
inquire further as to what type of oil they are using for this bio 2T
they said that it is a coconut oil and the process is esterification
process by converting the virgin oil (SVO) to biodiesel or now biolube
oil. I'm glad they are producing this bio 2T but the price per liter is
too high compared to price conventional 2T oil (petro based oil).
Biodiesel/biolube oil should not cost that much considering the
production cost and simplicity of process all is need are lot of
patience and caring to produce good quality biodiesel/biolube oil. Well
I'm encourage again to go deeper on this task to bring biolube oil to
common people who used motorcycle as a basic mode of transportation on
rural areas.

Thanks for the information
Frank

-Original Message-
From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:51 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

Franklin,

You can buy Bio 2T from Senbel Fine Chemicals at telephone # (632) 
850-6877 in the Philippines. They sell the Estrol brand of Bio 2T which 
was tested by the National Center for Transport Studies of  the 
University of the Philippines Engineering Department. This was proven to

be superior in performance and emission levels (gaseous and visible 
smoke) against the biggest selling 2T mineral oil in the market. Best 
used as a pre mix at 40:1. All autolubes of 2 stroke motorcycles in the 
Philippines are set at 20:1 which is the reason for the high smoke and 
accumulation of wasted unburned oil in the muffler system. For the same 
pre-mix ratio as the mineral based lubricant, visible smoke was reduced 
to almost nil with the use of Estrol Bio 2T

Alex

Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:

> Hi to all
>
> I would like to report to the group that my 83 model Yamaha motorcycle
> was running good with BD as a lube oil. Smoke was reduce and no more
oil
> dripping on my muffler. I sent my motorcycle for emission test center
> the result were as follow:
> Data reading
> CO2  2.90%
> CO   3.39%
> HC5396PPM
> O213.29%
> AFVR   20.95
> LAMBDA 1.44
>
> STANDARD GAS LIMIT
> CO2  20.00%
> CO   6.00%
> HC1PPM
> LAMBDA 1.00 +/- 0.99
> RESULTOK  PASSED
>
> The result of emission test using BD as a lube oil is very encouraging
> compared to 2T lubricating oil from oil producing company petrobased
oil
>
> Pouring in 100% BD at auto lube oil tank had a problem of leaking oil
> seal at metering pump. I guess that BD is too thin or rubber seal
worn.
> So I drain the BD out of auto lube oil tank and metering pump let it
> dry for a couple of days and mix BD with 2T oil 50:50 ratio and mix BD
> with gasoline tank at 5 % proportion. It works and I, m still using my
> motorcycle in and out of city proper with out smoke unlike before.
>
> Does anybody from the group that can give idea of how to replace this
2T
> oil with environmental friendly lubricating oil that can be blend with
> BD and  reduce the ill effect of BD to rubber seal?
>
> Regards
> frank
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Alexander P. Loinaz]

Franklin,

You can buy Bio 2T from Senbel Fine Chemicals at telephone # (632) 
850-6877 in the Philippines. They sell the Estrol brand of Bio 2T which 
was tested by the National Center for Transport Studies of  the 
University of the Philippines Engineering Department. This was proven to 
be superior in performance and emission levels (gaseous and visible 
smoke) against the biggest selling 2T mineral oil in the market. Best 
used as a pre mix at 40:1. All autolubes of 2 stroke motorcycles in the 
Philippines are set at 20:1 which is the reason for the high smoke and 
accumulation of wasted unburned oil in the muffler system. For the same 
pre-mix ratio as the mineral based lubricant, visible smoke was reduced 
to almost nil with the use of Estrol Bio 2T

Alex

Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote:

> Hi to all
>
> I would like to report to the group that my 83 model Yamaha motorcycle
> was running good with BD as a lube oil. Smoke was reduce and no more oil
> dripping on my muffler. I sent my motorcycle for emission test center
> the result were as follow:
> Data reading
> CO2  2.90%
> CO   3.39%
> HC5396PPM
> O213.29%
> AFVR   20.95
> LAMBDA 1.44
>
> STANDARD GAS LIMIT
> CO2  20.00%
> CO   6.00%
> HC1PPM
> LAMBDA 1.00 +/- 0.99
> RESULTOK  PASSED
>
> The result of emission test using BD as a lube oil is very encouraging
> compared to 2T lubricating oil from oil producing company petrobased oil
>
> Pouring in 100% BD at auto lube oil tank had a problem of leaking oil
> seal at metering pump. I guess that BD is too thin or rubber seal worn.
> So I drain the BD out of auto lube oil tank and metering pump let it
> dry for a couple of days and mix BD with 2T oil 50:50 ratio and mix BD
> with gasoline tank at 5 % proportion. It works and I, m still using my
> motorcycle in and out of city proper with out smoke unlike before.
>
> Does anybody from the group that can give idea of how to replace this 2T
> oil with environmental friendly lubricating oil that can be blend with
> BD and  reduce the ill effect of BD to rubber seal?
>
> Regards
> frank
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
>  
>
>
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel
>
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> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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[biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine

[Franklin B. Del Rosario]

Hi to all

I would like to report to the group that my 83 model Yamaha motorcycle
was running good with BD as a lube oil. Smoke was reduce and no more oil
dripping on my muffler. I sent my motorcycle for emission test center
the result were as follow:
Data reading
CO2  2.90%
CO   3.39%
HC5396PPM
O213.29%
AFVR   20.95
LAMBDA 1.44

STANDARD GAS LIMIT
CO2  20.00%
CO   6.00%
HC1PPM
LAMBDA 1.00 +/- 0.99
RESULTOK  PASSED

The result of emission test using BD as a lube oil is very encouraging
compared to 2T lubricating oil from oil producing company petrobased oil

Pouring in 100% BD at auto lube oil tank had a problem of leaking oil
seal at metering pump. I guess that BD is too thin or rubber seal worn. 
So I drain the BD out of auto lube oil tank and metering pump let it
dry for a couple of days and mix BD with 2T oil 50:50 ratio and mix BD
with gasoline tank at 5 % proportion. It works and I, m still using my
motorcycle in and out of city proper with out smoke unlike before.

Does anybody from the group that can give idea of how to replace this 2T
oil with environmental friendly lubricating oil that can be blend with
BD and  reduce the ill effect of BD to rubber seal?

Regards
frank




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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