Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Andy Mabbett]

On 10 August 2018 at 23:39, Paul Allen  wrote:

> This is a different problem from which separator to use.

I wondered if anyone would remember that question!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[pelderson]

I don't see anyone trying to change your way.


Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
 Oorspronkelijk bericht Van: Jo  Datum: 
11-08-18  09:29  (GMT+01:00) Aan: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
 Onderwerp: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced 
hyphen in multi-lingual names 
It's actually funny how these things go. Several years ago, mappers asked: How 
can we map multilingual names. We told them: In Brussels we do it with a spaced 
hyphen.
Oh thank you, we'll do it in a different way.
Several years later, people wonder why there are different ways for doing 
things and attempt to 'standardise' these separators.
Polyglot


Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 09:09 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer 
:




sent from a phone



> On 11. Aug 2018, at 06:13, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> 

> I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule

> that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the

> name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an

> Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name,

> there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could

> have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose

> " - ".





nobody questions the local names, the discussion is about the separator, which 
has nothing to do with the on the ground situation AFAIK, because there this is 
solved typographically (different line or different font(size)).



Using the same separator for the same thing (several names in different 
languages) is a general thing that could be done the same on a global level, 
it’s not something each local community must decide on their own (if they did, 
how it is now, there’s not much harm)





cheers,

Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Jo]

It's actually funny how these things go. Several years ago, mappers asked:
How can we map multilingual names. We told them: In Brussels we do it with
a spaced hyphen.

Oh thank you, we'll do it in a different way.

Several years later, people wonder why there are different ways for doing
things and attempt to 'standardise' these separators.

Polyglot



Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 09:09 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com>:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 11. Aug 2018, at 06:13, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule
> > that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the
> > name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an
> > Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name,
> > there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could
> > have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose
> > " - ".
>
>
> nobody questions the local names, the discussion is about the separator,
> which has nothing to do with the on the ground situation AFAIK, because
> there this is solved typographically (different line or different
> font(size)).
>
> Using the same separator for the same thing (several names in different
> languages) is a general thing that could be done the same on a global
> level, it’s not something each local community must decide on their own (if
> they did, how it is now, there’s not much harm)
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Aug 2018, at 06:13, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule
> that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the
> name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an
> Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name,
> there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could
> have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose
> " - ".


nobody questions the local names, the discussion is about the separator, which 
has nothing to do with the on the ground situation AFAIK, because there this is 
solved typographically (different line or different font(size)).

Using the same separator for the same thing (several names in different 
languages) is a general thing that could be done the same on a global level, 
it’s not something each local community must decide on their own (if they did, 
how it is now, there’s not much harm)


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Peter Elderson]

I am not trying to change any accepted local rule.

Mvg Peter Elderson

Op 11 aug. 2018 om 06:13 heeft Marc Gemis  het volgende 
geschreven:

>> I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality.  
>> Unless it's because they wish the street
>> signs were really monolingual.  There are people where I live who object to 
>> any use of English, should I cater to
>> their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or 
>> should I map what is there?
> 
> I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule
> that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the
> name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an
> Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name,
> there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could
> have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose
> " - ". The decision was taken before I joined the project in 2011.
> Perhaps the decision was influenced by what the rendered map looks
> like. Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan make more sense on a
> map, looks nicer than "Avenue Simon Bolivar;Simon Bolivarlaan" or
> whatever. I doubt there are maps that show the contracted name.
> 
> The name for Belgium "Belgique - België - Belgien" will not be found
> on the signs you see when you enter the country. The sign depends on
> the language spoken in the area at the border. So when you arrive in
> Belgium on the Flemish side you will see "België". Will you change the
> name when you survey the area there ?
> 
> Traditional maps show the 3  names, I don't know which separator they
> use, but it's unlikely they used ";".
> 
> m.
> 
> p.s. from a discussion on Welsh street names on the UK mailing list, I
> doubt it is accepted that you write both the Welsh name and the
> English name in the name field.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Peter Elderson]

If I knew about usual abbrevs I would probably expand those. If I was not sure, 
I would not. Usually, looking at existing names in the area tells me what to 
do. If there are variants on different signs in an area/language I don’t know, 
I tend to do nothing at all, but if I had to I would either give them all with 
slashes, or just pick one which makes the most sense to me, both cases assuming 
I can tell if the same name is meant.

Spelling errors, if I can see that it’s an error, of course I will correct, but 
if I can’t be sure and still want to map, giving both is not so bad. Some local 
mapper will eventually correct it, probably.

In any case, if there is an authoratative source and the local usance is to use 
that, fine with me, then I would of course not “correct” that to any other 
scheme.

Apart from naming considerations, a line break indicator in long text fields is 
not a bad idea, I think.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 11 aug. 2018 om 01:14 heeft Jo  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> What if the street sign said:
> 
> St Francis St.
> 
> would you be putting that exactly as is in the name tag?
> 
> I would put
> 
> Saint Francis Street
> 
> in it.
> 
> What if there are 3 signs, one with
> St Francis St.
> Saintt Francis St.
> St Francis Street
> 
> It may be a longer street, it may be that time passed by between when those 
> signs were placed. But this does happen.
> 
> Are you reatlly going to put
> name=St Francis St./Saintt Francis St./St Francis Street
> 
> to cover all your bases?
> 
> It's exactly the same situation. You're allowed to use some amount of your 
> brain power to get from what you find  on the signs before adding the  
> contents to OSM.
> 
> Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 01:05 schreef Paul Allen :
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Jo  wrote:
>>> Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official 
>>> data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those 
>>> names doesn't need to to so anymore.
>>> 
>>> There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be absurd 
>>> to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that is 
>>> something completely different.
>>> 
>>> Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this:
>>> 
>>> Avenue
>>>   Simon Bolivar
>>>  laan
>>>   
>>> Even if that is a spelling error in itself.
>>> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan
>>> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan
>>> 
>>> words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German.
>> 
>> Given that situation I'd say the best way to map it is:
>> 
>> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan
>> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan
>> name:fr=Avenue Simon Bolivar
>> 
>>> Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in 
>>> our name tags.
>> 
>> Why not?  It's what is on the sign.  If that is what is on the sign then 
>> that is what is ought to be mapped.  Or maybe
>> I should change roads into rivers because I prefer rivers and I don't want 
>> to map exactly what is on the ground.
>>  
>>> It's simply not practical
>> 
>> Why?  String length isn't a data problem unless the string exceeds some 
>> arbitrary length allocated in the
>> database schema.  It takes me a lot less time to type a long bilingual name 
>> for a highway than to trace the
>> highway itself.
>>  
>>> and it would very quickly become nonsensical.
>> 
>> If "name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan" is nonsensical then the street sign is 
>> nonsensical.  Complain to your
>> local elected representative and ask him/her for legislation to change the 
>> naming conventions of street signs.
>> 
>> I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality.  
>> Unless it's because they wish the street
>> signs were really monolingual.  There are people where I live who object to 
>> any use of English, should I cater to
>> their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or 
>> should I map what is there?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Paul
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

> I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality.  
> Unless it's because they wish the street
> signs were really monolingual.  There are people where I live who object to 
> any use of English, should I cater to
> their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or 
> should I map what is there?

I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule
that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the
name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an
Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name,
there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could
have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose
" - ". The decision was taken before I joined the project in 2011.
Perhaps the decision was influenced by what the rendered map looks
like. Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan make more sense on a
map, looks nicer than "Avenue Simon Bolivar;Simon Bolivarlaan" or
whatever. I doubt there are maps that show the contracted name.

The name for Belgium "Belgique - België - Belgien" will not be found
on the signs you see when you enter the country. The sign depends on
the language spoken in the area at the border. So when you arrive in
Belgium on the Flemish side you will see "België". Will you change the
name when you survey the area there ?

Traditional maps show the 3  names, I don't know which separator they
use, but it's unlikely they used ";".

m.

p.s. from a discussion on Welsh street names on the UK mailing list, I
doubt it is accepted that you write both the Welsh name and the
English name in the name field.

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 11 August 2018 at 09:14, Jo  wrote:

> What if the street sign said:
>
> St Francis St.
>
> would you be putting that exactly as is in the name tag?
>
> I would put
>
> Saint Francis Street
>
> in it.
>
> What if there are 3 signs, one with
> St Francis St.
> Saintt Francis St.
> St Francis Street
>
> It may be a longer street, it may be that time passed by between when
> those signs were placed. But this does happen.
>
> Are you reatlly going to put
> name=St Francis St./Saintt Francis St./St Francis Street
>
> to cover all your bases?
>

There was discussion recently (may have only been on the Australian list?)
about St / Saint & the protocol (at least in English) is that Saint is
spelled St when it is part of a street / place name.

OSM rules are that street is always to be spelt in full, not as St.

So even if the street showed those 3 signs, I would leave the whole thing
as St Francis Street.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Jo]

What if the street sign said:

St Francis St.

would you be putting that exactly as is in the name tag?

I would put

Saint Francis Street

in it.

What if there are 3 signs, one with
St Francis St.
Saintt Francis St.
St Francis Street

It may be a longer street, it may be that time passed by between when those
signs were placed. But this does happen.

Are you reatlly going to put
name=St Francis St./Saintt Francis St./St Francis Street

to cover all your bases?

It's exactly the same situation. You're allowed to use some amount of your
brain power to get from what you find  on the signs before adding the
contents to OSM.

Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 01:05 schreef Paul Allen :

>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Jo  wrote:
>
>> Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official
>> data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those
>> names doesn't need to to so anymore.
>>
>> There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be
>> absurd to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that
>> is something completely different.
>>
>> Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this:
>>
>> Avenue
>>   Simon Bolivar
>>  laan
>>
>> Even if that is a spelling error in itself.
>> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan
>> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan
>>
>> words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German.
>>
>
> Given that situation I'd say the best way to map it is:
>
> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan
> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan
> name:fr=Avenue Simon Bolivar
>
> Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in
>> our name tags.
>>
>
> Why not?  It's what is on the sign.  If that is what is on the sign then
> that is what is ought to be mapped.  Or maybe
> I should change roads into rivers because I prefer rivers and I don't want
> to map exactly what is on the ground.
>
>
>> It's simply not practical
>>
>
> Why?  String length isn't a data problem unless the string exceeds some
> arbitrary length allocated in the
> database schema.  It takes me a lot less time to type a long bilingual
> name for a highway than to trace the
> highway itself.
>
>
>> and it would very quickly become nonsensical.
>>
>
> If "name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan" is nonsensical then the street sign is
> nonsensical.  Complain to your
> local elected representative and ask him/her for legislation to change the
> naming conventions of street signs.
>
> I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality.
> Unless it's because they wish the street
> signs were really monolingual.  There are people where I live who object
> to any use of English, should I cater to
> their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text
> or should I map what is there?
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Jo  wrote:

> Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official
> data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those
> names doesn't need to to so anymore.
>
> There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be absurd
> to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that is
> something completely different.
>
> Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this:
>
> Avenue
>   Simon Bolivar
>  laan
>
> Even if that is a spelling error in itself.
> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan
> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan
>
> words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German.
>

Given that situation I'd say the best way to map it is:

name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan
name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan
name:fr=Avenue Simon Bolivar

Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in
> our name tags.
>

Why not?  It's what is on the sign.  If that is what is on the sign then
that is what is ought to be mapped.  Or maybe
I should change roads into rivers because I prefer rivers and I don't want
to map exactly what is on the ground.


> It's simply not practical
>

Why?  String length isn't a data problem unless the string exceeds some
arbitrary length allocated in the
database schema.  It takes me a lot less time to type a long bilingual name
for a highway than to trace the
highway itself.


> and it would very quickly become nonsensical.
>

If "name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan" is nonsensical then the street sign is
nonsensical.  Complain to your
local elected representative and ask him/her for legislation to change the
naming conventions of street signs.

I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality.
Unless it's because they wish the street
signs were really monolingual.  There are people where I live who object to
any use of English, should I cater to
their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or
should I map what is there?

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:47 PM, Peter Elderson 
wrote:

if I were a renderer I would not try to parse/interpret a free format
> string. I would parse only clearly defined sections, where the separator is
> very very unlikely to occur in text strings. Space slash space might be
> suitable, but not if any context is required, context such as that it’s
> about language. So even if mappers and taggers decide to use eg
> spaceslashspace as a language separator or whatever other category of
> separator, I would still just render the full string including the
> separator string.
>

Indeed.  Don't parse it.  It's not intended to be parseable and more than a
variable name in a computer program.  It is
a label with no intrinsic semantics.  Well, there's a separator which may
not be present on the actual sign (but see
below).

As a mapper, I want to map whats visible on the ground. Street names are
> visible as strings on signs. I want to enter those without having to
> consult other sources. If I happen to have more detailed knowledge, I want
> to enter that in addition to the basics, not instead of.


Indeed.  In my opinion that is the true purpose of name:xx=*.

There is a separator which could be used (if editors permit) which is
present on some signs.  That is a new line.  Not
every bilingual sign has a new line.  Not every new line on a sign
separates languages (it could be a multi-word
name on a sign which has to be narrow because of space restrictions).  But
it's a separator that could be entered as-is
and is guaranteed to mean nothing more than that the sign has a line break
at that point (which may also be the end
of one language and the start of another).  Use name:xx to make it clear if
different portions of the sign are in different
languages.

If (still as a mapper) I see multiple lines with equal font
> style/type/size, then I would probably summize that they are equal
> variants. In bilingual areas you can often be quite certain. Then I would
> concatenate using slash or space slash space. I would expect the renderer,
> any rendererer, not to break up the string but just render the whole thing
> as the name. Of course when name:xx tags are present, renderers may have
> rules for preference regarding name tags.
>

This is a different problem from which separator to use.  But it is sort of
tangled up with that.  I live in Wales which is
officially bilingual English/Welsh.  But it's not uniform.  There are parts
of Wales where most of the population is
bilingual with a small percentage understanding only Welsh and a small
percentage understanding only English.  In
other parts of Wales almost everybody understands English and almost nobody
understands Welsh.  Some renderers
assume that Wales is uniform and where name:cy exists it should be used in
preference to name:en or name.  Other
renderers give preference to name:en over name.  Both approaches have
problems over always preferring name (if
present).

Name is (should be) what is present.  Somebody who speaks only Welsh and
somebody who speaks only English
can both live with "Aberteifi / Cardigan."  Especially if both forms appear
on road signage together (they usually do).
A renderer preferring name:cy or name:en is going to upset or confuse more
people.


> If I were a data user, again I would not try to do anything with
> substrings of a free format string. Which is not the same as being against
> whatever people may wish to put in it, just you don’t build anything on
> free format strings.
>

That's what name:xx is there for.  It's still a free-format string, and
therefore unparseable, but it's in a particular
language

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Jo]

Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official
data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those
names doesn't need to to so anymore.

There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be absurd
to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that is
something completely different.

Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this:

Avenue
  Simon Bolivar
 laan

Even if that is a spelling error in itself.
name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan
name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan

words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German.

Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in
our name tags. It's simply not practical and it would very quickly become
nonsensical.

Jo



Op vr 10 aug. 2018 om 23:48 schreef Peter Elderson :

> if I were a renderer I would not try to parse/interpret a free format
> string. I would parse only clearly defined sections, where the separator is
> very very unlikely to occur in text strings. Space slash space might be
> suitable, but not if any context is required, context such as that it’s
> about language. So even if mappers and taggers decide to use eg
> spaceslashspace as a language separator or whatever other category of
> separator, I would still just render the full string including the
> separator string.
>
> As a mapper, I want to map whats visible on the ground. Street names are
> visible as strings on signs. I want to enter those without having to
> consult other sources. If I happen to have more detailed knowledge, I want
> to enter that in addition to the basics, not instead of. If the sign has
> one line which looks like it has variants within the one string, be it
> language varants, religious variants, or script variants, I still put the
> whole thing in the tag. I see no need for any kind of unification there,
> just copy the whole shebang.
>
> If (still as a mapper) I see multiple lines with equal font
> style/type/size, then I would probably summize that they are equal
> variants. In bilingual areas you can often be quite certain. Then I would
> concatenate using slash or space slash space. I would expect the renderer,
> any rendererer, not to break up the string but just render the whole thing
> as the name. Of course when name:xx tags are present, renderers may have
> rules for preference regarding name tags.
>
> If I were a data user, again I would not try to do anything with
> substrings of a free format string. Which is not the same as being against
> whatever people may wish to put in it, just you don’t build anything on
> free format strings.
>
>
> Mvg Peter Elderson
>
> > Op 10 aug. 2018 om 21:41 heeft marc marc 
> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> >> Le 10. 08. 18 à 19:28, Peter Elderson a écrit :
> >> If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need
> >> interpretation and/or a glue character or glue string.
> >
> > in fact, what's the better glue character IS the question
> > at the begging of this thread.
> >
> > Currently, a Brussels resident reading a sign with 2 lines in Biel is
> > unable to fill in the name field without making a mistake or without
> > first having to search the wiki to find the local convention, at least
> > if this mapper has guessed that he is in a bilingual area (which is not
> > always obvious when one is not able to recognize that the second line is
> > the same as the first line in another language).
> > On the other hand, an inhabitant of Biel is unable to map a street
> > in Brussels without making a mistake, for the same reason.
> >
> > In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between
> > several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be
> > useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key.
> > Afterwards, it will be up to the different local communities to see
> > the interest or not, to use it.
> > but it would allow for example a contributor who adds a street to
> > Brussels in iD or Josm to have assistance from the application to tell
> > him how to encode this and make the possible link with the different
> > corresponding name:xx
> >
> > or to take a less personal example, what would be the ideal way to do
> > things in a bilingual city where nothing has yet been done ? does this
> > community need a 5th glue character different from the 4 others ?
> > or is there a way to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the
> > 4 existing separators without falling into a sterile debate such as
> > "I don't live in a bilingual zone so bilingual zones must have to do
> > like me and have a one-only value in name"?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Marc
> > ___
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Peter Elderson]

if I were a renderer I would not try to parse/interpret a free format string. I 
would parse only clearly defined sections, where the separator is very very 
unlikely to occur in text strings. Space slash space might be suitable, but not 
if any context is required, context such as that it’s about language. So even 
if mappers and taggers decide to use eg spaceslashspace as a language separator 
or whatever other category of separator, I would still just render the full 
string including the separator string. 

As a mapper, I want to map whats visible on the ground. Street names are 
visible as strings on signs. I want to enter those without having to consult 
other sources. If I happen to have more detailed knowledge, I want to enter 
that in addition to the basics, not instead of. If the sign has one line which 
looks like it has variants within the one string, be it language varants, 
religious variants, or script variants, I still put the whole thing in the tag. 
I see no need for any kind of unification there, just copy the whole shebang.

If (still as a mapper) I see multiple lines with equal font style/type/size, 
then I would probably summize that they are equal variants. In bilingual areas 
you can often be quite certain. Then I would concatenate using slash or space 
slash space. I would expect the renderer, any rendererer, not to break up the 
string but just render the whole thing as the name. Of course when name:xx tags 
are present, renderers may have rules for preference regarding name tags.

If I were a data user, again I would not try to do anything with substrings of 
a free format string. Which is not the same as being against whatever people 
may wish to put in it, just you don’t build anything on free format strings. 


Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 10 aug. 2018 om 21:41 heeft marc marc  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
>> Le 10. 08. 18 à 19:28, Peter Elderson a écrit :
>> If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need 
>> interpretation and/or a glue character or glue string.
> 
> in fact, what's the better glue character IS the question
> at the begging of this thread.
> 
> Currently, a Brussels resident reading a sign with 2 lines in Biel is 
> unable to fill in the name field without making a mistake or without 
> first having to search the wiki to find the local convention, at least 
> if this mapper has guessed that he is in a bilingual area (which is not 
> always obvious when one is not able to recognize that the second line is 
> the same as the first line in another language).
> On the other hand, an inhabitant of Biel is unable to map a street
> in Brussels without making a mistake, for the same reason.
> 
> In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between 
> several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be 
> useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key.
> Afterwards, it will be up to the different local communities to see
> the interest or not, to use it.
> but it would allow for example a contributor who adds a street to 
> Brussels in iD or Josm to have assistance from the application to tell 
> him how to encode this and make the possible link with the different 
> corresponding name:xx
> 
> or to take a less personal example, what would be the ideal way to do 
> things in a bilingual city where nothing has yet been done ? does this 
> community need a 5th glue character different from the 4 others ?
> or is there a way to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the
> 4 existing separators without falling into a sterile debate such as
> "I don't live in a bilingual zone so bilingual zones must have to do 
> like me and have a one-only value in name"?
> 
> Regards,
> Marc
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 21:42, marc marc  wrote:
> In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between
> several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be
> useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key.

Then why not also use the semicolon to separate multilingual names?
After all, two names are two values. Besides we already use the
semicolon for alt_name. [^1]

[^1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Multiple_names

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[marc marc]

Le 10. 08. 18 à 19:28, Peter Elderson a écrit :
> If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need 
> interpretation and/or a glue character or glue string.

in fact, what's the better glue character IS the question
at the begging of this thread.

Currently, a Brussels resident reading a sign with 2 lines in Biel is 
unable to fill in the name field without making a mistake or without 
first having to search the wiki to find the local convention, at least 
if this mapper has guessed that he is in a bilingual area (which is not 
always obvious when one is not able to recognize that the second line is 
the same as the first line in another language).
On the other hand, an inhabitant of Biel is unable to map a street
in Brussels without making a mistake, for the same reason.

In the same way as in osm we defined ";" as being the separator between 
several values of the same key (with several exceptions), it would be 
useful to define a separator between several lines of the same key.
Afterwards, it will be up to the different local communities to see
the interest or not, to use it.
but it would allow for example a contributor who adds a street to 
Brussels in iD or Josm to have assistance from the application to tell 
him how to encode this and make the possible link with the different 
corresponding name:xx

or to take a less personal example, what would be the ideal way to do 
things in a bilingual city where nothing has yet been done ? does this 
community need a 5th glue character different from the 4 others ?
or is there a way to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the
4 existing separators without falling into a sterile debate such as
"I don't live in a bilingual zone so bilingual zones must have to do 
like me and have a one-only value in name"?

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[marc marc]

Le 10. 08. 18 à 20:35, Marc Gemis a écrit :
>> If there's a street sign, that's what should be mapped in name=* even if 
>> it's "wrong."

> What if there are 2 streets signs on either end of the street with
> different spelling ?

I agree with you
the name of a highway, is the name of... the highway !
if somebody want to tag the content of street name signs including 
mistake, feel free to use traffis_sign=street_name or something
like that.
requesting to put all variant of all mistakes for a street
in the name tag is a nonsense
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Simon Poole]

Am 10.08.2018 um 20:19 schrieb Paul Allen:
>  Because if I'm in
> a strange location, looking at a map that labels a street "Foo Lane"
> that's what I expect to see on the sign.  Anything
> else is misleading and unhelpful.
Couldn't agree more.

Note: we do have "official_name" for identifying when s*** happens.


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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 7:35 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

>
> what if there are different street signs on the left and the right
> side because the street is on the boundary between 2 villages ?
>

name:left=* and name:right=* are what the wiki recommends.  Local mapping
conventions might well decide to
use "Left Street / Right Street" instead or as well.

What if there are 2 streets signs on either end of the street with
> different spelling ?


Split the way and put the appropriate spelling on each half.  Put the other
spelling in alt_name.  Or leave it
as a single way and name it "Right Street / Wrong Street."

Yes, you've found a couple of examples where it's not possible/sensible to
map the reality well.  That doesn't
mean it's a good idea to not map the reality when it is both possible and
sensible to do so.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Daniel McCormick 
wrote:

>
> The goal of OSM is not to create a map that renders great on the default
> renderer. The goal is to create repository that can be rendered quickly and
> easily by anyone. The default map is what we primarily interact with and
> just like anything it has become the lens by which we view our contribution
> to the map. However, that lens is not the best viewing glass in most
> situations. When we add multiple languages we are not actually adding
> anything to data, as long as we are using name:xx=*, but rather are
> cluttering the existing data and impeding the use of the very data that we
> spend so much time making better. With the names properly categorized we
> can create a renderer that does all we want it to in much simpiler fashion
> then if we are to add multilingual names to the name=* tag. We could even
> make a renderer that shows multilingual names that sources all of our
> name:xx tags.
>

I fully agree that in a monolingual area, adding other languages in the
name=* tag is foolish and unhelpful.  For
streets I'd argue that adding name:xx=* is also unhelpful.   Seeing
"William Strasse" or "Wilhelm Strasse" on a map
isn't much help if you're on the ground and looking at as sign saying
"William Street."

The situation changes in multilingual areas, where the signs themselves are
multilingual.  The example I keep
using is:

Heol Napier
Napier Street

But if the sign were damaged and replaced, the new sign is more likely to
follow more recent conventions and
say "Heol Napier Street."

Either way name:cy="Heol Napier" and name:en="Napier Street" but in both
situations rendering either of those
does *not* show what the sign actually says.  Having the renderer software
use " / " to concatenate the two represents
the first format adequately but misrepresents the second.

I don't think there is any substitute for mapping and rendering the
actuality.  Maybe with vector tiles and the option to
display any or all of name, name:cy, name:en, loc_name and alt_name at the
click of a mouse, that changes, but I'd
still prefer on-the-ground reality as the default.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

> If there's a street sign, that's what should be mapped in name=* even if it's 
> "wrong."  Not temporarily wrong, but
> permanently "the council has decreed that's what it is, and that's how it's 
> going to stay" wrong.  Because if I'm in
> a strange location, looking at a map that labels a street "Foo Lane" that's 
> what I expect to see on the sign.  Anything
> else is misleading and unhelpful.

what if there are different street signs on the left and the right
side because the street is on the boundary between 2 villages ?
What if there are 2 streets signs on either end of the street with
different spelling ?

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> I am saying that street signs are just indications of names. Names for
> streets are usually (at least in Italy and Germany) assigned by the city
> council,


Assigned by the county council here in the UK (I'm simplifying a little
because some towns are unitary
authorities).


> it is an act of legislation assigning a name (again , at least in these
> countries).


Indeed.  I doubt many people in the UK know it, but you have to apply to
the county council (not the Post Office or
Royal mail, as you might expect) to name your house (or change the existing
name).


> The signs might be ok, but for example in Italy we are used to having
> often shorter names signed with respect to the actual name. Errors in
> street signs are also not unheard of. Signs are an important part of
> reality, but they are not the absolute truth and they are not the only way
> to verify a name (e.g. ask locals, look in the city archive, etc.)
>

Here the signs are almost always correct.  Because installing the signs is
the task of the county council's highways
department.   Only rarely do things go wrong:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm

Signs are an important part of reality, but they are not the absolute truth
> and they are not the only way to verify a name (e.g. ask locals, look in
> the city archive, etc.)
>

Yes, there are sometimes local names.  That's what loc_name=*, alt_name=*
and old_name=* are for.

If there's a street sign, that's what should be mapped in name=* even if
it's "wrong."  Not temporarily wrong, but
permanently "the council has decreed that's what it is, and that's how it's
going to stay" wrong.  Because if I'm in
a strange location, looking at a map that labels a street "Foo Lane" that's
what I expect to see on the sign.  Anything
else is misleading and unhelpful.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Daniel McCormick]

While Paul makes a Strong argument it appears that we are still placing too 
much emphasis on the name=* tag. Consider France that has many signs similar to 
the example that Paul brings up. They have decided to put French in as the 
name=* and name:xx for the other languages. This fact that a name has a colon 
and a language designation does not mean it is any less important. Unless you 
are looking at the default OSM renderer. I contend that the average consumer is 
not going to be looking directly at the OSM default renderer. They will most 
likely be using a non-primary outlet/ renderer and having a multilingual name 
makes things complicated for ALL renderers. 
The goal of OSM is not to create a map that renders great on the default 
renderer. The goal is to create repository that can be rendered quickly and 
easily by anyone. The default map is what we primarily interact with and just 
like anything it has become the lens by which we view our contribution to the 
map. However, that lens is not the best viewing glass in most situations. When 
we add multiple languages we are not actually adding anything to data, as long 
as we are using name:xx=*, but rather are cluttering the existing data and 
impeding the use of the very data that we spend so much time making better. 
With the names properly categorized we can create a renderer that does all we 
want it to in much simpiler fashion then if we are to add multilingual names to 
the name=* tag. We could even make a renderer that shows multilingual names 
that sources all of our name:xx tags.
In short while I understand the argument, I would humbly contend that adding 
any multilingual name the the name=* field is unnecessary and leads to more 
clutter then clarity and would move to supporting local communities in finding 
a way to add all the different languages in their proper category.

> On Aug 10, 2018, at 7:30 AM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
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> than "Re: Contents of Tagging digest..."
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names (Jo)
>   2. Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes (peterkrauss)
>   3. Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes (Paul Allen)
>   4. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
>  (Paul Allen)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:33:44 +0200
> From: Jo 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
>   names
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> The renderers and ALL data consumers would then have to take that into
> account.
> 
> Tagging for the renderer means: Using a inappropriate tag on an object such
> that it renders in a colour or style the mapper prefers over correctly
> tagging an object.
> 
> Putting 2 names in a name field where those 2 names have equal standing is
> not mapping for the renderer. That is mere pragmatism while mapping, and
> yes, we like to get our stuff rendered. Outsiders should already be glad we
> were able to agree on a consistent ordering for those names. The normal
> Belgian compromise for resolving this would be: make sure that fr - nl and
> nl - fr are equally distributed in name tags, at all times...
> 
> The reason for not choosing Brussel/Bruxelles is that Brussel - Bruxelles
> clearly shows that there are 2 names in there. Instead of one long glued
> together string of characters. And of course, there are place names which
> have - in them, Sint-Agatha-Berchem - Berchem-Sainte-Agathe, for example.
> (When I write them, I put nl first, obviously, that's my first language,
> and incidentally also the language that place was known as, until maybe 200
> years ago, before it became officially bilingual)
> 
> Polyglot
> 
> Op vr 10 aug. 2018 om 12:12 schreef SelfishSeahorse <
> selfishseaho...@gmail.com>:
> 
>> Maybe a possible solution to get rid of name=* tags containing names
>> in multiple languages would be to add the information about which
>> languages are spoken in a particular region to its boundary relation
>> (e.g. spoken_languages=de;fr to the municipalit

Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Peter Elderson]

If the sign shows one string, name= should always be right.
If you know the string contains two language variants and a separator, sep 
string, brackets or whatever, you can interpret the string and extract name:xx 
substrings. I would still keep the name= tag, to serve both rendering 
and other data usage.

If the sign shows two strings one line each, you will need interpretation 
and/or a glue character or glue string. Because it’s not always two language 
variants. We have lots of signs giving the name, and on the second line 
somethingh else like the name of the city quarter, a year or years for birth 
and death of the person the street is named after, or the function or title of 
the person that (s)he is remembered for.
I have even seen three line street name signs.

When it comes to glueing strings (which in the OP’s case equals separating 
variants) , I strongly prefer / to - because - is extremely common in names and 
/ is not. 

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 10 aug. 2018 om 18:24 heeft Paul Allen  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> > On 10. Aug 2018, at 15:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> > 
>> > 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on the 
>> > ground. 
>> 
>> 
>> everybody can render what she deems most useful, there is not an absolute 
>> rule to render what is on the ground (e.g. if there is a typo on a sign, you 
>> must not put that into ‘name’ if you know and have confirmed it is a typo. 
>> It could be useful to map the signed name as well, but I wouldn’t use the 
>> key “name” for it, as that is for the name)
> 
> You appear to be saying that the name of the street (as on the sign) is not 
> the name of the street (as in the name=*
> tag applying to the street).  This appears to be a post-modernist 
> interpretation of "name."
> 
> What else would the name=* tag, when applied to a way, be the name of?  What 
> is the wording on the street sign
> except the name of the street?
>  
>> > I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what 
>> > language(s) the sign is in, that is what the
>> > sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion).  
>> 
>> thing is, you might want to know in which language the sign is, and there is 
>> currently no way to find out from our data. If you don’t want to know, you 
>> are already served ;-)
> 
> A mapper who doesn't speak English or Welsh (but is familiar with the Roman 
> alphabet) could, nonetheless,
> put the words "Heol Napier Napier Street" into the name=* tag for the way.  
> This is a straightforward mapping (both
> senses of the word) and matches observable reality.  Yes, it would be nice if 
> they also added "name:cy=Heol Napier"
> and "name:en=Napier Street" but that can come later, if at all.  Adding the 
> language tagging is of *secondary*
> importance, a refinement which is nice but not essential.
> 
> Yes, the situation is somewhat different when the street has a name but there 
> is no signage and different arguments can
> be made.  And things get really complicated when there is an official name, a 
> local name, but no signage.   But when
> there is a street sign name=* should be used for what is on the sign because 
> anything else is perverse.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 18:24, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> You appear to be saying that the name of the street (as on the sign) is not 
> the name of the street (as in the name=*
> tag applying to the street).  This appears to be a post-modernist 
> interpretation of "name."
> 
> What else would the name=* tag, when applied to a way, be the name of?  What 
> is the wording on the street sign
> except the name of the street?


I am saying that street signs are just indications of names. Names for streets 
are usually (at least in Italy and Germany) assigned by the city council, it is 
an act of legislation assigning a name (again , at least in these countries). 
The signs might be ok, but for example in Italy we are used to having often 
shorter names signed with respect to the actual name. Errors in street signs 
are also not unheard of. Signs are an important part of reality, but they are 
not the absolute truth and they are not the only way to verify a name (e.g. ask 
locals, look in the city archive, etc.)


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> > On 10. Aug 2018, at 15:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on
> the ground.
>
>
> everybody can render what she deems most useful, there is not an absolute
> rule to render what is on the ground (e.g. if there is a typo on a sign,
> you must not put that into ‘name’ if you know and have confirmed it is a
> typo. It could be useful to map the signed name as well, but I wouldn’t use
> the key “name” for it, as that is for the name)
>

You appear to be saying that the name of the street (as on the sign) is not
the name of the street (as in the name=*
tag applying to the street).  This appears to be a post-modernist
interpretation of "name."

What else would the name=* tag, when applied to a way, be the name of?
What is the wording on the street sign
except the name of the street?


> > I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what
> language(s) the sign is in, that is what the
> > sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion).
>
> thing is, you might want to know in which language the sign is, and there
> is currently no way to find out from our data. If you don’t want to know,
> you are already served ;-)
>

A mapper who doesn't speak English or Welsh (but is familiar with the Roman
alphabet) could, nonetheless,
put the words "Heol Napier Napier Street" into the name=* tag for the way.
This is a straightforward mapping (both
senses of the word) and matches observable reality.  Yes, it would be nice
if they also added "name:cy=Heol Napier"
and "name:en=Napier Street" but that can come later, if at all.  Adding the
language tagging is of *secondary*
importance, a refinement which is nice but not essential.

Yes, the situation is somewhat different when the street has a name but
there is no signage and different arguments can
be made.  And things get really complicated when there is an official name,
a local name, but no signage.   But when
there is a street sign name=* should be used for what is on the sign
because anything else is perverse.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 15:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on the 
> ground. 


everybody can render what she deems most useful, there is not an absolute rule 
to render what is on the ground (e.g. if there is a typo on a sign, you must 
not put that into ‘name’ if you know and have confirmed it is a typo. It could 
be useful to map the signed name as well, but I wouldn’t use the key “name” for 
it, as that is for the name)


> ...
> I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what 
> language(s) the sign is in, that is what the
> sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion).  


thing is, you might want to know in which language the sign is, and there is 
currently no way to find out from our data. If you don’t want to know, you are 
already served ;-)

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > On 10. Aug 2018, at 00:42, Daniel McCormick 
> wrote:
> >
> > While the default renderer favors name=* over name:nl or name:fr that is
> not the case for other renderers. We as contributors might think that is
> the most prominent way to view the data but not all renderers are the same.
> Having our data be specific in saying this is the French name, this is the
> Flemish name and this is the German name gives the data more flexibility
> than just having all languages thrown into one name=* field.
>
> nobody questions the usefulness of name:language tags, the question is
> only what, if anything, to put in the name tag in multilingual areas (and
> also this is a term which can describe a lot of different realities, which
> not necessarily have to be treated all the same).
>

Two things.

1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on the
ground.  A minute's walk from where I live is
a street sign that says:

Heol Napier
Napier Street

That is what I observe.  See
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0857064,-4.6583686,3a,15.4y,86.99h,96.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQGH0BhhjxXX2ctr-1NxmOg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what
language(s) the sign is in, that is what the
sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion).

2)  Ordinary consumers (people looking at OSM and trying to figure out
where they are) need to know what signs
SAY.  Presenting them with half the information increases the cognitive
load on somebody trying to figure out
where they are when GPS is not very accurate.  If they are unfamiliar with
the languages involved then "Heol Napier
Napier Street" may not be the same as "Napier Street" but a separate entity
(perhaps its a side street branching off
Napier Street).

As it happens, I know that Heol Napier is the Welsh name of the street and
Napier Street is the English name, but not
everyone consuming the data will know (or want to know) that.  They are
more likely to be concerned with
confirming that they are where they think they are.  Having name:cy and
name:en will perhaps permit vector
maps to display names in a language of choice, but lacking that name=*
should (in my opinion) show what is
actually there.  Anything else is perverse.

As another matter, Wikipedia has an OSM-derived project that translates all
names into as many languages as possible.
I'm not sure this is useful.  This might make sense for the tag info that
comes back from a query, such as the Chinese for
"addr:street" but not so much for the name of the street itself (which is
almost always the equivalent of an
arbitrary label).  I'd say that for actual names, transliterations would be
useful but translations would not (if you're
asking a local and know the local language for "Where is" and can pronounce
the name then that is more useful than
knowing what the name means in your own language.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Jo]

The renderers and ALL data consumers would then have to take that into
account.

Tagging for the renderer means: Using a inappropriate tag on an object such
that it renders in a colour or style the mapper prefers over correctly
tagging an object.

Putting 2 names in a name field where those 2 names have equal standing is
not mapping for the renderer. That is mere pragmatism while mapping, and
yes, we like to get our stuff rendered. Outsiders should already be glad we
were able to agree on a consistent ordering for those names. The normal
Belgian compromise for resolving this would be: make sure that fr - nl and
nl - fr are equally distributed in name tags, at all times...

The reason for not choosing Brussel/Bruxelles is that Brussel - Bruxelles
clearly shows that there are 2 names in there. Instead of one long glued
together string of characters. And of course, there are place names which
have - in them, Sint-Agatha-Berchem - Berchem-Sainte-Agathe, for example.
(When I write them, I put nl first, obviously, that's my first language,
and incidentally also the language that place was known as, until maybe 200
years ago, before it became officially bilingual)

Polyglot

Op vr 10 aug. 2018 om 12:12 schreef SelfishSeahorse <
selfishseaho...@gmail.com>:

> Maybe a possible solution to get rid of name=* tags containing names
> in multiple languages would be to add the information about which
> languages are spoken in a particular region to its boundary relation
> (e.g. spoken_languages=de;fr to the municipality boundary of
> Biel/Bienne). However, the renderers would then have to take these
> relations into account.
>
> Cheers
> Markus
>
> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 at 13:25, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > ]
> > > > p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.
> > >
> > > That can be a sign that something is amiss.
> >
> > the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but
> > to do something on carto-css for osm.org
> > We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have
> > that problem at all.
> >
> > As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd
> > announces the name field and not name:nl
> > Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one
> > of the two depending on preference or situation.
> >
> > As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of
> > name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide
> > what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on
> > name:xx fields.
> > Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css
> > (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map
> > maker.
> >
> > All that seems better than starting to change the name (and
> > addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because
> > someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map.
> >
> > m.
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[SelfishSeahorse]

Maybe a possible solution to get rid of name=* tags containing names
in multiple languages would be to add the information about which
languages are spoken in a particular region to its boundary relation
(e.g. spoken_languages=de;fr to the municipality boundary of
Biel/Bienne). However, the renderers would then have to take these
relations into account.

Cheers
Markus

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 at 13:25, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
> ]
> > > p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.
> >
> > That can be a sign that something is amiss.
>
> the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but
> to do something on carto-css for osm.org
> We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have
> that problem at all.
>
> As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd
> announces the name field and not name:nl
> Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one
> of the two depending on preference or situation.
>
> As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of
> name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide
> what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on
> name:xx fields.
> Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css
> (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map
> maker.
>
> All that seems better than starting to change the name (and
> addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because
> someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map.
>
> m.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 00:42, Daniel McCormick  wrote:
> 
> While the default renderer favors name=* over name:nl or name:fr that is not 
> the case for other renderers. We as contributors might think that is the most 
> prominent way to view the data but not all renderers are the same. Having our 
> data be specific in saying this is the French name, this is the Flemish name 
> and this is the German name gives the data more flexibility than just having 
> all languages thrown into one name=* field.



nobody questions the usefulness of name:language tags, the question is only 
what, if anything, to put in the name tag in multilingual areas (and also this 
is a term which can describe a lot of different realities, which not 
necessarily have to be treated all the same).

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Daniel McCormick]

I have to agree with Marc on the position of rendering. It would appear to me 
that the use of separators in the name=* field comes from a desire to have the 
default map renderer on opentstreetmap.org <http://opentstreetmap.org/> show 
both names. This is mapping to the renderer. The best way to view OSM is not as 
the default renderer depicts it but as a repository of geospatial data that the 
renderer then assists the contributor in viewing and understanding. Even though 
it gets in the way at times. While the default renderer favors name=* over 
name:nl or name:fr that is not the case for other renderers. We as contributors 
might think that is the most prominent way to view the data but not all 
renderers are the same. Having our data be specific in saying this is the 
French name, this is the Flemish name and this is the German name gives the 
data more flexibility than just having all languages thrown into one name=* 
field. The hierarchy of what is chosen to be rendered depends on the renderer 
and therefore we should hold the same standard. When it comes to not mapping to 
the renderer we hold it to the OSM standard rather than mapping to the 
renderer. 

> On Aug 9, 2018, at 6:00 AM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
>  (Marc Gemis)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 13:23:22 +0200
> From: Marc Gemis 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
>   names
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> ]
>>> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.
>> 
>> That can be a sign that something is amiss.
> 
> the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but
> to do something on carto-css for osm.org
> We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have
> that problem at all.
> 
> As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd
> announces the name field and not name:nl
> Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one
> of the two depending on preference or situation.
> 
> As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of
> name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide
> what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on
> name:xx fields.
> Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css
> (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map
> maker.
> 
> All that seems better than starting to change the name (and
> addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because
> someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map.
> 
> m.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
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> End of Tagging Digest, Vol 107, Issue 48
> 

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 9 August 2018 at 18:03, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Random example:
> https://www.google.com/maps/@50.826443,4.2963849,3a,15y,
> 217.26h,94.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY2SqOf8gphVOZYqsHOKlXA!
> 2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>

Interesting, because I notice that Google (the fount of all knowledge where
it comes to online mapping /s :-)) only shows the street name as Rue Claude
Debussy, despite what is shown on the sign

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

]
> > p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.
>
> That can be a sign that something is amiss.

the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but
to do something on carto-css for osm.org
We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have
that problem at all.

As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd
announces the name field and not name:nl
Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one
of the two depending on preference or situation.

As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of
name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide
what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on
name:xx fields.
Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css
(e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map
maker.

All that seems better than starting to change the name (and
addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because
someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

Signs can use different fonts, text size, colours and "line breaks" to
> indicate meaning which cannot be captured in a single line of plain
> text.


A one-minute walk from me is this sign:

Heol Napier
Napier Street

It's possible to indicate this with name:cy and name:en but only one of
those gets rendered.  Which is a bit of
a problem if you get a text message telling you that what you're looking
for is on Napier Street but the map displays
only Heol Napier.  My own opinion is that what is rendered should be what
is on the street sign (I am aware there
are people who strongly hold different views).  To my mind, "Heol Napier /
Napier Street" is the best compromise
until the name field permits, and the renderer honours, line breaks.

Name:xx=* also appears to be a problem in that if it is present some
renderers will display that in place of name=*.
Different renderers have their own idea which of multiple name:xx=* to use
if more than one is present.

Note also that some Welsh signage takes advantage of the different word
order in Welsh and English so you'll
encounter things like "Cyfeithwyr Welch & Co Solicitors" which is an
amalgamation of "Cyfeithwyr Welch & Co"
and "Welch & Co Solicitors."  It can also happen on street signage.

It gets messy, and I feel we do not yet have a perfect solution.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Andy Mabbett]

On 9 August 2018 at 09:21, Marc Gemis  wrote:


>> Also many bilingual street signs in Belgium exploit grammatical
>> differences between French and Dutch; where the significant part
>> is a proper name (X), in French it might be "Rue X", in Dutch it is
>> "Xstraat", so the sign says Rue X-straat.

> That's true and I always wondered why the community didn't take that
> approach. Map what is on the sign.

Signs can use different fonts, text size, colours and "line breaks" to
indicate meaning which cannot be captured in a single line of plain
text.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Andy Mabbett]

On 9 August 2018 at 06:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Can you please elaborate a bit on the reason for your question ?

To reduce the cognitive load on mappers.

> Is it because you want a map with a uniform syntax for multiple names ?

No.

> I assume it is not because  humans do not understand the meaning of
> one of the following forms Biel / Bienne, Biel/Bienne, Biel - Bienne,
> Biel (Bienne)

Indeed.

> Or do you want a uniform system for parsing ?

No.

> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.

I understand that already.

> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.

That can be a sign that something is amiss.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:09 AM Colin Smale  wrote:
>
> On 2018-08-09 08:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
>
>
>
> the question is about the "name in the local language".
>
> Is it not about the "name as signed in situ"? (Cf. "on-the-ground trumps 
> everything else" rule)
>
> In the case of Brussels, are all signs "fr - nl" or are some "nl - fr" ?
>
> Also many bilingual street signs in Belgium exploit grammatical differences 
> between French and Dutch; where the significant part is a proper name (X), in 
> French it might be "Rue X", in Dutch it is "Xstraat", so the sign says Rue 
> X-straat.
>

That's true and I always wondered why the community didn't take that
approach. Map what is on the sign. But it is very well possible that 2
signs for the same street use different ways of combining French and
Dutch.

I think I have seen some signs of paths in the Zoniënwoud where they
use the full Dutch and French name and Dutch was in front. The were
not the regular street name signs as in the example you gave.

But anyway, the OP's question was for greater, world-wide consistency.
Using the contraction mechanism used in Brussels will not accomplish
that.

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

The OP wrote "Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?"

That is why I asked to elaborate  a bit on "why / to whom".

he never mentioned "the question is about the “name in the local
language”." That was the main topic of the previous discussion on the
combined names.

m.
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 8:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> > a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
>
>
> the question is about the “name in the local language”.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-08-09 08:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>> 
>> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
>> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
> 
> the question is about the "name in the local language".

Is it not about the "name as signed in situ"? (Cf. "on-the-ground trumps
everything else" rule) 

In the case of Brussels, are all signs "fr - nl" or are some "nl - fr" ?


Also many bilingual street signs in Belgium exploit grammatical
differences between French and Dutch; where the significant part is a
proper name (X), in French it might be "Rue X", in Dutch it is
"Xstraat", so the sign says Rue X-straat. 

Random example: 
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.826443,4.2963849,3a,15y,217.26h,94.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY2SqOf8gphVOZYqsHOKlXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


So it looks like the text on the signs cannot be recreated from name:fr
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.


the question is about the “name in the local language”.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Jo]

Op do 9 aug. 2018 om 07:18 schreef Marc Gemis :

> Andy,
>
> Can you please elaborate a bit on the reason for your question ?
> Is it because you want a map with a uniform syntax for multiple names ?
> I assume it is not because  humans do not understand the meaning of
> one of the following forms Biel / Bienne, Biel/Bienne, Biel - Bienne,
> Biel (Bienne)
> Or do you want a uniform system for parsing ?
>
> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
>
> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.  Not so long ago
> someone proposed to have a second field that indicates the format in
> which the name field is written.
>

Funnily enough they were not happy with

fr - nl

in that field though. But anyway, like Marc said, it's really easy to parse
using name:nl and name:fr. And if you really want, you can always put the
separator you prefer in between them in your rendering, or reverse the
order, or drop one of the languages.
Brussels is officially bilingual, so dropping 1 of the languages is not
exactly acceptable either, not for the general name tag anyway.

Polyglot
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

Andy,

Can you please elaborate a bit on the reason for your question ?
Is it because you want a map with a uniform syntax for multiple names ?
I assume it is not because  humans do not understand the meaning of
one of the following forms Biel / Bienne, Biel/Bienne, Biel - Bienne,
Biel (Bienne)
Or do you want a uniform system for parsing ?

The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
a certain language you look at the name:xx field.

p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.  Not so long ago
someone proposed to have a second field that indicates the format in
which the name field is written.

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[marc marc]

name must be only one name of course faild with bilingual area.
of course local communities have the rules that apply to this situation
and try to impose a single rule on the world will fail

but Andry's message seems imho a good idea :
having only-one rule that can be used everywhere is better than
having x rules that try to do the same thing which implies that
a contributor must discover those x rules and that the software 
concerned must code x routines to use them (try to create a QA to catch 
name to name:xx mistmatch in multilangual area... you 'll see the issue)
discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the different separators 
currently used is very useful for using the experience of different 
local communities.
afterward PROPOSING a 'global' rule would make sense, although obviously 
it would be up to each local community to choose whether or not to adopt it.


Le 08. 08. 18 à 20:51, Johnparis a écrit :
> /Daniel McCormick wrote: "I propose that only one language is used for 
> the name= tag"/
> 
> This fails immediately in bilingual countries like Belgium, and also 
> fails in countries like Morocco, where the predominant language is 
> Arabic, but the two legal languages are Arabic and Tamazight, while a 
> major language of commerce is French. The local communities in Belgium 
> and Morocco have addressed these issues to their satisfaction, with no 
> need for outsiders to impose their views of "the best way".
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 8:15 PM, Peter Elderson  > wrote:
> 
> My understanding was that the discussion is about when both names
> are indicated on the name signs and no definite preference is
> clear.  The method of exactly representing the sign (just copy the
> string) fails because usually the names are given as two strings or
> even as two signs.
> 
> Op wo 8 aug. 2018 om 20:02 schreef Daniel McCormick
> mailto:mccorm...@kaartgroup.com>>
> 
> (I think I did something wrong and I have been corrected
> hopefully this is the correct way to contribute to this list)
> 
> I wanted to add my input here as I have done work in several
> different countries with several different naming schemes.
> 
> It is my interpretation that the goal of this discussion is to
> determine the best way to distinguish different translations of
> the name of roads.
> 
> I propose that only one language is used for the name= tag. This
> will help to create a standard for naming that will bring
> clarity and consistency. If multiple languages are used in the
> area, place the most commonly used language in the name=* field
> and then the other languages in the appropriate name:en=*,
> name:fr=*, and so on. This will ensure that the data is
> specifically catalogued for routing software, while providing
> the opportunity for users of data to specify the language they
> desire to read the map in. In the end I suppose it would just be
> a matter of seeing both all the time or not but if we use the
> name:(insert whatever desired language here)=* we ensure a more
> specific and catalogued database for OSM globally.
> 
> An example of this the Greek method where they have
> name=Μητροπόλεως
> name:el=Μητροπόλεως
> name:en=Mitropoleos street
> 
> In Greece if I use a routing software, I can easily tell it to
> show me name:en or name:el for whatever I need to see at the
> time. Rather then using hyphen, slash or space I propose we use
> this method for distinguishing different translations in our
> naming scheme
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
> 
> -- 
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 20:03, Daniel McCormick  wrote:
> I propose that only one language is used for the name= tag. This will help to 
> create a standard for naming that will bring clarity and consistency. If 
> multiple languages are used in the area, place the most commonly used 
> language in the name=* field and then the other languages in the appropriate 
> name:en=*, name:fr=*, and so on. This will ensure that the data is 
> specifically catalogued for routing software, while providing the opportunity 
> for users of data to specify the language they desire to read the map in. In 
> the end I suppose it would just be a matter of seeing both all the time or 
> not but if we use the name:(insert whatever desired language here)=* we 
> ensure a more specific and catalogued database for OSM globally.
>
> An example of this the Greek method where they have
> name=Μητροπόλεως
> name:el=Μητροπόλεως
> name:en=Mitropoleos street
>
> In Greece if I use a routing software, I can easily tell it to show me 
> name:en or name:el for whatever I need to see at the time. Rather then using 
> hyphen, slash or space I propose we use this method for distinguishing 
> different translations in our naming scheme

I think it depends on whether the language of the second name on the
street sign is spoken at that place or not, i.e. if it is a bilingual
place or not. If it is not – like in Greece –, then I think your
example makes sense. However, if it is – like for example in
Biel/Bienne [^1] – then I would put both names in the name=* tag.

[^1]: 

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Johnparis]

*Daniel McCormick wrote: "I propose that only one language is used for the
name= tag"*

This fails immediately in bilingual countries like Belgium, and also fails
in countries like Morocco, where the predominant language is Arabic, but
the two legal languages are Arabic and Tamazight, while a major language of
commerce is French. The local communities in Belgium and Morocco have
addressed these issues to their satisfaction, with no need for outsiders to
impose their views of "the best way".


On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 8:15 PM, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> My understanding was that the discussion is about when both names are
> indicated on the name signs and no definite preference is clear.  The
> method of exactly representing the sign (just copy the string) fails
> because usually the names are given as two strings or even as two signs.
>
> Op wo 8 aug. 2018 om 20:02 schreef Daniel McCormick <
> mccorm...@kaartgroup.com>
>
>> (I think I did something wrong and I have been corrected hopefully this
>> is the correct way to contribute to this list)
>>
>> I wanted to add my input here as I have done work in several different
>> countries with several different naming schemes.
>>
>> It is my interpretation that the goal of this discussion is to determine
>> the best way to distinguish different translations of the name of roads.
>>
>> I propose that only one language is used for the name= tag. This will
>> help to create a standard for naming that will bring clarity and
>> consistency. If multiple languages are used in the area, place the most
>> commonly used language in the name=* field and then the other languages in
>> the appropriate name:en=*, name:fr=*, and so on. This will ensure that the
>> data is specifically catalogued for routing software, while providing the
>> opportunity for users of data to specify the language they desire to read
>> the map in. In the end I suppose it would just be a matter of seeing both
>> all the time or not but if we use the name:(insert whatever desired
>> language here)=* we ensure a more specific and catalogued database for OSM
>> globally.
>>
>> An example of this the Greek method where they have
>> name=Μητροπόλεως
>> name:el=Μητροπόλεως
>> name:en=Mitropoleos street
>>
>> In Greece if I use a routing software, I can easily tell it to show me
>> name:en or name:el for whatever I need to see at the time. Rather then
>> using hyphen, slash or space I propose we use this method for
>> distinguishing different translations in our naming scheme
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Peter Elderson]

My understanding was that the discussion is about when both names are
indicated on the name signs and no definite preference is clear.  The
method of exactly representing the sign (just copy the string) fails
because usually the names are given as two strings or even as two signs.

Op wo 8 aug. 2018 om 20:02 schreef Daniel McCormick <
mccorm...@kaartgroup.com>

> (I think I did something wrong and I have been corrected hopefully this is
> the correct way to contribute to this list)
>
> I wanted to add my input here as I have done work in several different
> countries with several different naming schemes.
>
> It is my interpretation that the goal of this discussion is to determine
> the best way to distinguish different translations of the name of roads.
>
> I propose that only one language is used for the name= tag. This will help
> to create a standard for naming that will bring clarity and consistency. If
> multiple languages are used in the area, place the most commonly used
> language in the name=* field and then the other languages in the
> appropriate name:en=*, name:fr=*, and so on. This will ensure that the data
> is specifically catalogued for routing software, while providing the
> opportunity for users of data to specify the language they desire to read
> the map in. In the end I suppose it would just be a matter of seeing both
> all the time or not but if we use the name:(insert whatever desired
> language here)=* we ensure a more specific and catalogued database for OSM
> globally.
>
> An example of this the Greek method where they have
> name=Μητροπόλεως
> name:el=Μητροπόλεως
> name:en=Mitropoleos street
>
> In Greece if I use a routing software, I can easily tell it to show me
> name:en or name:el for whatever I need to see at the time. Rather then
> using hyphen, slash or space I propose we use this method for
> distinguishing different translations in our naming scheme
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Daniel McCormick]

(I think I did something wrong and I have been corrected hopefully this is the 
correct way to contribute to this list)

I wanted to add my input here as I have done work in several different 
countries with several different naming schemes. 

It is my interpretation that the goal of this discussion is to determine the 
best way to distinguish different translations of the name of roads.

I propose that only one language is used for the name= tag. This will help to 
create a standard for naming that will bring clarity and consistency. If 
multiple languages are used in the area, place the most commonly used language 
in the name=* field and then the other languages in the appropriate name:en=*, 
name:fr=*, and so on. This will ensure that the data is specifically catalogued 
for routing software, while providing the opportunity for users of data to 
specify the language they desire to read the map in. In the end I suppose it 
would just be a matter of seeing both all the time or not but if we use the 
name:(insert whatever desired language here)=* we ensure a more specific and 
catalogued database for OSM globally. 

An example of this the Greek method where they have 
name=Μητροπόλεως 
name:el=Μητροπόλεως
name:en=Mitropoleos street

In Greece if I use a routing software, I can easily tell it to show me name:en 
or name:el for whatever I need to see at the time. Rather then using hyphen, 
slash or space I propose we use this method for distinguishing different 
translations in our naming scheme
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Daniel McCormick]

gt;> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20180808/6ff38b4d/attachment-0001.html>
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:44:14 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Part/whole confusion with Wikidata tag,and the
>   need for enveloping parts into a whole
> Message-ID: <5b1dc510-bd27-48ea-a2cf-a29752fb3...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 8. Aug 2018, at 02:22, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
>> 
>> If we duplicated everything, than each part of a railroad station should 
>> have duplicate web site URL, hours of operation, operator name, and tons of 
>> other info.
> 
> 
> I don’t know what situation you are referring to, and how it is currently 
> mapped, but if there are different parts mapped, there will usually be a 
> reason for it, and different websites, operation hours (never mapped these 
> myself), operators and other info might be the reason for splitting it. Maybe 
> the parts of the station shouldn’t be mapped as if they were stations on 
> their own, but as parts of a station?
> Usually tags go on the object they apply to, tags for a station go on the 
> station, tags for a part of a station go on the part, etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin 
> 
> 
> ———
> 


> I wanted to add my input here as I have done work in several different 
> countries with several different naming schemes. 
> 
> It is my interpretation that the goal of this discussion is to determine the 
> best way to distinguish different translations of the name of roads.
> 
> I propose that only one language is used for the name= tag. This will help to 
> create a standard for naming that will bring clarity and consistency. If 
> multiple languages are used in the area, place the most commonly used 
> language in the name=* field and then the other languages in the appropriate 
> name:en=*, name:fr=*, and so on. This will ensure that the data is 
> specifically catalogued for routing software, while providing the opportunity 
> for users of data to specify the language they desire to read the map in. In 
> the end I suppose it would just be a matter of seeing both all the time or 
> not but if we use the name:(insert whatever desired language here)=* we 
> ensure a more specific and catalogued database for OSM globally. 
> 
> An example of this the Greek method where they have 
> name=Μητροπόλεως 
> name:el=Μητροπόλεως
> name:en=Mitropoleos street
> 
> In Greece if I use a routing software, I can easily tell it to show me 
> name:en or name:el for whatever I need to see at the time. Rather then using 
> hyphen, slash or space I propose we use this method for distinguishing 
> different translations in our naming scheme
> sent from a phone

> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:54:45 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
>   names
> Message-ID: <5e9bad70-34c0-4a0f-a5e3-c60920e87...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
>> On 8. Aug 2018, at 17:43, Johnparis  wrote:
>> 
>> Osmose generates an error if you use a slash.
> 
> 
> Osmose could be fixed, I don’t see it has any authority on what is correct or 
> not, it is just a tool to help you find situations where something might 
> eventually be suspicious, nothing more. It is up to you to decide and 
> evaluate the situation.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:12:44 +0200
> From: SelfishSeahorse 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
>   names
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> I suspect that the different punctuation marks on OSM are a
> consequence of different writing habits in the respective regions,
> which i recommend to follow.
> 
> For example, in English-speaking regions and in Switzerland the slash
> without spaces is used (e.g. Biel/Bienne), unless one of the two names
> already has a space, in which case the slash is usually set with
> spaces (e.g. Bielersee / Lac de Bienne).
> 
> Regards
> Mark

Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Peter Elderson]

>  the slash without spaces is used (e.g. Biel/Bienne), unless one of the
two names already has a space, in which case the slash is usually set
with spaces
(e.g. Bielersee / Lac de Bienne).

This I would support. It is generally used and understood like this in
Nederland as well. The remark that if the script type changes a special
separator is not needed, I second that too.

2018-08-08 19:12 GMT+02:00 SelfishSeahorse :

> I suspect that the different punctuation marks on OSM are a
> consequence of different writing habits in the respective regions,
> which i recommend to follow.
>
> For example, in English-speaking regions and in Switzerland the slash
> without spaces is used (e.g. Biel/Bienne), unless one of the two names
> already has a space, in which case the slash is usually set with
> spaces (e.g. Bielersee / Lac de Bienne).
>
> Regards
> Markus
>
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:21, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
> >
> > Please see:
> >
> >https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Multilingual_
> names#Slash.2C_space.2C_or_spaced_hyphen.3F
> >
> > where I wrote:
> >
> > This page (and perhaps actual practice) is inconsistent in suggesting:
> >
> > * slashes: name=L'Alguer/Alghero (New Zealand, Portugal, Sardinia)
> > * spaced hyphens: name=Rue du Marché aux Poulets - Kiekenmarkt (Belgium,
> Spain)
> > * spaces: name=干諾道中 Connaught Road Central (Hong Kong)
> > * spaced slashes: name=Le Rhin / Rhein (shared boundaries)
> >
> > Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
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>



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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[SelfishSeahorse]

I suspect that the different punctuation marks on OSM are a
consequence of different writing habits in the respective regions,
which i recommend to follow.

For example, in English-speaking regions and in Switzerland the slash
without spaces is used (e.g. Biel/Bienne), unless one of the two names
already has a space, in which case the slash is usually set with
spaces (e.g. Bielersee / Lac de Bienne).

Regards
Markus

On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:21, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> Please see:
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Multilingual_names#Slash.2C_space.2C_or_spaced_hyphen.3F
>
> where I wrote:
>
> This page (and perhaps actual practice) is inconsistent in suggesting:
>
> * slashes: name=L'Alguer/Alghero (New Zealand, Portugal, Sardinia)
> * spaced hyphens: name=Rue du Marché aux Poulets - Kiekenmarkt (Belgium, 
> Spain)
> * spaces: name=干諾道中 Connaught Road Central (Hong Kong)
> * spaced slashes: name=Le Rhin / Rhein (shared boundaries)
>
> Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Aug 2018, at 17:43, Johnparis  wrote:
> 
> Osmose generates an error if you use a slash.


Osmose could be fixed, I don’t see it has any authority on what is correct or 
not, it is just a tool to help you find situations where something might 
eventually be suspicious, nothing more. It is up to you to decide and evaluate 
the situation.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Jo]

It's mostly our names did have hyphens, but none had hyphens with spaces
around them. Annoyingly we still get in trouble for those cases where both
sides of the street have different names... They exist, but they are rare
enough not to cause real headaches.

Op wo 8 aug. 2018 om 17:44 schreef Johnparis :

> Osmose generates an error if you use a slash. I don't see consistency as
> an advantage. It's a local decision.
>
> If the names use different writing systems (as in the HK example) a space
> is sufficient.
>
> Slashes do occur in names, but surely more rarely than embedded hyphens. I
> think the spaced hyphen is an effort to emulate the dash, which is not an
> ASCII character. A spaced double hyphen is better in that regard -- as in
> this sentence.
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 17:22 Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > On 8. Aug 2018, at 14:19, Andy Mabbett 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?
>>
>>
>> I prefer the slash, because hyphens occur in names, while I haven’t yet
>> encountered a name with slashes
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Johnparis]

Osmose generates an error if you use a slash. I don't see consistency as an
advantage. It's a local decision.

If the names use different writing systems (as in the HK example) a space
is sufficient.

Slashes do occur in names, but surely more rarely than embedded hyphens. I
think the spaced hyphen is an effort to emulate the dash, which is not an
ASCII character. A spaced double hyphen is better in that regard -- as in
this sentence.

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 17:22 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 8. Aug 2018, at 14:19, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
> >
> > Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?
>
>
> I prefer the slash, because hyphens occur in names, while I haven’t yet
> encountered a name with slashes
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Aug 2018, at 14:19, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> 
> Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?


I prefer the slash, because hyphens occur in names, while I haven’t yet 
encountered a name with slashes 

cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Andy Mabbett]

Please see:

   
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Multilingual_names#Slash.2C_space.2C_or_spaced_hyphen.3F

where I wrote:

This page (and perhaps actual practice) is inconsistent in suggesting:

* slashes: name=L'Alguer/Alghero (New Zealand, Portugal, Sardinia)
* spaced hyphens: name=Rue du Marché aux Poulets - Kiekenmarkt (Belgium, Spain)
* spaces: name=干諾道中 Connaught Road Central (Hong Kong)
* spaced slashes: name=Le Rhin / Rhein (shared boundaries)

Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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