Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
> > Just a further heads up that this user appears to have posted to SABRE > asking for a way to edit OSM privately. Any suggestions I should pass on > to him? It should keep him from vandalising live data if it was possible. > Just a bit of a heads up really. I've just spotted some random changing of road classificaions from old friend RR8 again. Some are definitely wrong. Can people check local edits to check to see if anything has been incorrectly changed? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
> Is there any simple way (i.e. not involving setting up your own Mapnik > server) to test Mapnik rendering locally, without polluting OSM, and > perhaps more importantly, without waiting an hour or more to see your > update. I'm working on a Virtual-Box image with a complete set up rendering stack to play with your own rendering rules and custom rendering styles. You'll be able to just do #> osm-load --api 8.1098,49.7439,8.2382,49.8316 #> osm-render --bbox 8.1098,49.7439,8.2382,49.8316 or for bigger areas #> osm-load --bzip2-file germany.osm.bz2 stay tuned! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Jennifer Campbell wrote: > Just a further heads up that this user appears to have posted to SABRE > asking for a way to edit OSM privately. Any suggestions I should pass on > to him? It should keep him from vandalising live data if it was possible. > > http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23677 > > Jeni > http://blog.jennystuff.com Thanks for the heads up! Can anyone from the Leicester area comment on the changes around Barwell and Earl Shilton in changeset 2727592? It's a long time since I was down there... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/10/5 Dermot McNally : > 2009/10/4 John Smith : > >> If it is a genuine concern about being abused for making mistakes the >> people abusing people should be dealt with there is no reason for it, > > I'm not sure if you followed the original incident. This was not a I was commenting indirectly based on the posts to that forum, it sounded like one or more people had been abused for making mistakes even if the original poster of the thread is a vandal. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/10/5 Anthony : > Is there any simple way (i.e. not involving setting up your own Mapnik > server) to test Mapnik rendering locally, without polluting OSM, and perhaps > more importantly, without waiting an hour or more to see your update. I thought the dev system was setup to do this, but it doesn't seem to be the case. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/10/4 John Smith : > If it is a genuine concern about being abused for making mistakes the > people abusing people should be dealt with there is no reason for it, I'm not sure if you followed the original incident. This was not a case of an inexperienced mapper making some mistakes while trying to map reality. This is a user who appears to have used the tools in an accomplished way to map a fantasy road network in several different countries, ignoring all contact received from other mappers. And no, I didn't abuse him for it, tempted though I was. Incidentally, even though I'm still smarting from this guy's idiocy, I do think it would be good for us to have a play area allowing people to edit and render what-if maps. Our tools are well-suited to this and it's a community of users who may also be prepared to do real mapping. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Thomas Wood wrote: > On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 01:15 +1000, John Smith wrote: > > For people with good reason to be making dummy edits the dev system > > can do this and will also render pretty maps too. > > > > http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/ > > Half correct. It's not yet set up for rendering. > Is there any simple way (i.e. not involving setting up your own Mapnik server) to test Mapnik rendering locally, without polluting OSM, and perhaps more importantly, without waiting an hour or more to see your update. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 01:15 +1000, John Smith wrote: > For people with good reason to be making dummy edits the dev system > can do this and will also render pretty maps too. > > http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/ Half correct. It's not yet set up for rendering. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/10/5 Jennifer Campbell : > Just a further heads up that this user appears to have posted to SABRE > asking for a way to edit OSM privately. Any suggestions I should pass on > to him? It should keep him from vandalising live data if it was possible. > > http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23677 If it is a genuine concern about being abused for making mistakes the people abusing people should be dealt with there is no reason for it, I belive someone suggested a more formal mentoring arrangement, which would probably deal with this better than making edits to a dummy system just to see how things will render. For people with good reason to be making dummy edits the dev system can do this and will also render pretty maps too. http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Just a further heads up that this user appears to have posted to SABRE asking for a way to edit OSM privately. Any suggestions I should pass on to him? It should keep him from vandalising live data if it was possible. http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23677 Jeni http://blog.jennystuff.com Rob wrote: > Thomas Wood wrote: > >> Hi list, >> Attention was drawn to the OSM user RR8 last night on IRC. It appears >> that they have been producing /apparently/ deconstructive edits at a >> high frequency since late Saturday evening (server time). >> Edits primarily are the reclassification of highways to a different >> level. This has occured frequently in the East Midlands (often >> including a change of reference number that cannot be confirmed from >> other sources), places in Ireland where under-construction motorways >> have been marked as opened, and a few reclassifications elsewhere, >> most notably Iceland. >> >> The edits appear to look constructive, but are more likely to be >> destructive. Ideally, someone local to the areas in question should >> check a few of the changes, or we could get people from the mailing >> list to consider the edits as a whole to decide what's to be done >> about them. >> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RR8/edits >> >> > Was just looking at the stats report and happened to notice this account > is editing again after a 15 day quite period. > Not checked the regions or validity at all yet but given the past > history I though I would give a heads up. > > rcr > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Rob wrote: > Was just looking at the stats report and happened to notice this account > is editing again after a 15 day quite period. > Not checked the regions or validity at all yet but given the past > history I though I would give a heads up. Thanks for that - it's been mentioned on Talk-GB (also also on IRC). The last 3 days edits do look constructive (and restricted to North Nottinghamshire in England) - the two road class changes that I was able to check by driving down there were correct; others look plausible. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Thomas Wood wrote: > Hi list, > Attention was drawn to the OSM user RR8 last night on IRC. It appears > that they have been producing /apparently/ deconstructive edits at a > high frequency since late Saturday evening (server time). > Edits primarily are the reclassification of highways to a different > level. This has occured frequently in the East Midlands (often > including a change of reference number that cannot be confirmed from > other sources), places in Ireland where under-construction motorways > have been marked as opened, and a few reclassifications elsewhere, > most notably Iceland. > > The edits appear to look constructive, but are more likely to be > destructive. Ideally, someone local to the areas in question should > check a few of the changes, or we could get people from the mailing > list to consider the edits as a whole to decide what's to be done > about them. > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RR8/edits > Was just looking at the stats report and happened to notice this account is editing again after a 15 day quite period. Not checked the regions or validity at all yet but given the past history I though I would give a heads up. rcr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required around Lincoln, England)
Bob wrote: > Hi List, > > The A57 and A607 edits below are incorrect to the best of my > knowledge. Thanks for that. I'll have a go at undoing the A57 changes as time permits (unless anyone beats me to it). I seem to recall reverting some A607 changes (as part of reverting the fictitious extension of the A512 beyond Melton) so that may already be done (I'll have a look at the same time in case not). Also, if you're in Lincoln, any thoughts on the A15 (i.e. should it be primary, which it was before, or trunk, which RR8 changed it to), and the "lets make everything a secondary road" changes in the southeast of the city? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required around Lincoln, England)
Thomas Wood wrote: > Hi list, > Attention was drawn to the OSM user RR8 last night on IRC. It appears > that they have been producing /apparently/ deconstructive edits at a > high frequency since late Saturday evening (server time). > Edits primarily are the reclassification of highways to a different > level. This has occured frequently in the East Midlands (often > including a change of reference number that cannot be confirmed from > other sources), places in Ireland where under-construction motorways > have been marked as opened, and a few reclassifications elsewhere, > most notably Iceland. > > The edits appear to look constructive, but are more likely to be > destructive. Ideally, someone local to the areas in question should > check a few of the changes, or we could get people from the mailing > list to consider the edits as a whole to decide what's to be done > about them. > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RR8/edits Sorry to drag this up again, but I wonder if anyone around Lincoln could confirm the status of the A15? It got changed by RR8 from Primary to Trunk as part of the series of edits referred to above (the ways concerned are 29480041, 29480046, 5042808, 29520168, 29520045, 29480048, 29480047, 29479263, 29479262, 29462340, 29462344, 29460689, 29460690, 29457824, 29457818, 29457821, 5042796, 5042797, 5038270, 3713242, and 3708395). Can anyone confirm whether it should be primary or should be trunk? Also, the stretch of the A57 from the A1 to Lincoln needs looking at. The ways include 13781670, 38366466, 13781669, 35580773, 35577435, 23160625, 13781668 and a few others. In places it's been changed to the A158 - I've no idea if that's correct (but based on the "hit rate" of other RR8 edits is unlikely to be). Also, the Tritton Road area of Lincoln (ways 5052965, 5052933, 5038112, 3713127, 3713110 among others), and the changes to the A607 and B1178. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log for changeset details. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Peter Miller wrote: > > Personally I think the wiki is an under-supported resource and much > load would be taken off talk if it was better written but I do also > acknowledge that the traditional primary form of communication within > OSM is the list and it may be prudent to continue using lists for that > communication. I quite like the current approach of discussion on mailing lists (and/or IRC), followed by documentation of the outcomes of such discussions on the wiki (where the discussion can be continued if necessary with non-list-subscribers). I don't particularly see a need for more mailing lists - if people are only interested in reading about vandalism, for example, rather than using a vandalism@ list, the subject of the thread should be enough to indicate the topic. I also agree that this is important: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Cleanup ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On 4 Sep 2009, at 11:23, Peter Körner wrote: >> tagging@ would be a start. > And vandalism@ I would prefer counter-vandalism@ I also support Richard's suggestion of tagging@ Personally I think the wiki is an under-supported resource and much load would be taken off talk if it was better written but I do also acknowledge that the traditional primary form of communication within OSM is the list and it may be prudent to continue using lists for that communication. Regards, Peter > > Peter > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
> tagging@ would be a start. And vandalism@ Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Peter Miller wrote:
> As a general comment can we please start using the wiki for
> more conversations - talk is now so busy most of the time
Please, no.
Let's have more mailing lists if need be, to take the load off talk:
tagging@ would be a start. And let's impose some self-discipline about
whether to post or not ("is your message really necessary?"). But having to
follow discussions through a non-threaded medium... no thanks.
cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On 4 Sep 2009, at 10:28, Liz wrote: > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Mike Harris wrote: >> Peter >> >> Excellent summary - very well balanced. I would get particularly >> suspicious >> of motivation where there was no response to courteous attempts to >> get in >> touch to discuss. > again general agreement >> >> Slight word of caution on the thought of not being expert in both >> 'Ireland' >> and 'Iceland' for example. I hope to be just as competent (or not!) >> when on >> vacation in 'Peru' as when near home base in 'Algeria' - although I >> would >> be more cautious when on vacation (no local knowledge) I would hope >> that >> the gpx traces would be as good and - hopefully - as useful and my >> level of >> experience (or not!) much the same. > some of us are involved in long distance mentoring and so you will > see edits > in some strange places - but the locals are in this case very aware > of what we > are doing. > >> >> Would be good to have this on the wiki. > and quickly! I have now added it to the Vandalism wiki page [1]i. Do please 'watch' that wiki page and let's continue the conversation by finessing the vandalism page with discussion on the vandalism talk page. I have created a new category 'Counter vandalism' [2] (previous called 'anti- vandalism') for all pages relating to vandalism response. As a general comment can we please start using the wiki for more conversations - talk is now so busy most of the time that I don't even read it and much of the detail could be handled with much more precision using the wiki. There is a WikiCleanup project[3] that aims to get the wiki into a better state with better categories, linkage, titles and content! Do please join us because it is a big but very important job. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Counter-vandalism [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Cleanup Regards, Peter > Liz > > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Mike Harris wrote: > Peter > > Excellent summary - very well balanced. I would get particularly suspicious > of motivation where there was no response to courteous attempts to get in > touch to discuss. again general agreement > > Slight word of caution on the thought of not being expert in both 'Ireland' > and 'Iceland' for example. I hope to be just as competent (or not!) when on > vacation in 'Peru' as when near home base in 'Algeria' - although I would > be more cautious when on vacation (no local knowledge) I would hope that > the gpx traces would be as good and - hopefully - as useful and my level of > experience (or not!) much the same. some of us are involved in long distance mentoring and so you will see edits in some strange places - but the locals are in this case very aware of what we are doing. > > Would be good to have this on the wiki. and quickly! Liz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Peter Excellent summary - very well balanced. I would get particularly suspicious of motivation where there was no response to courteous attempts to get in touch to discuss. Slight word of caution on the thought of not being expert in both 'Ireland' and 'Iceland' for example. I hope to be just as competent (or not!) when on vacation in 'Peru' as when near home base in 'Algeria' - although I would be more cautious when on vacation (no local knowledge) I would hope that the gpx traces would be as good and - hopefully - as useful and my level of experience (or not!) much the same. Would be good to have this on the wiki. Mike Harris > -Original Message- > From: Peter Miller [mailto:peter.mil...@itoworld.com] > Sent: 03 September 2009 22:58 > To: Someoneelse > Cc: OSM Talk > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal > > > On 3 Sep 2009, at 22:17, Someoneelse wrote: > > > Frederik Ramm wrote: > >> ... But I really need people familiar with the region who tell me > >> that they are reasonably sure that the edits are bogus. > > > > If it helps, I've just looked at a selection of 20 of the 60 ways > > edited in changeset 2308178 by RR8. This covers north > Nottinghamshire > > in England. One edit looks possibly correct (a road number > has been > > continued from an adjacent stretch of road; it's possible that that > > that could be legitimate, the other 19 edits do not look > likely to be > > valid > > > > > I've added an entry to the table in > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log > > as that's been suggested as a way of keeping track of requests. > > > > I've looked at a smaller number of ways in other changesets > by RR8 in > > the surrounding area (Derby / Notts / Sheffield). All look > similarly > > suspect. > > > >> Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't > >> automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc. > > > > It certainly looks like he/she/it is messing up Northern England. > > I think we need to agree on some guidance for response to > possible vandals and what level of checking should be > performed prior to reversion. > > Personally I would suggest:- > > 1) We should expect that all contributors should at all time > attempt to make good, accurate and well researched changes > 2) We need to ensure that every contributor is on-balance > making the dataset better, not worse. If the contribution is > in doubt we owe it to other contributors to investigate and respond. > 3) We should be aware that people make mistakes, need time to > learn and newbies often need and will respond to support > 4) We can request, but not require contributors to add a > comments to their changesets and to have created a useful > personal page with some details about their interest and > knowledge. Doing this makes reversion less likely and make it > more likely that the person will be helped if needed. > 5) In the event that someone seems to be doing strange edits > one should initially assume 'good faith' but should watch > carefully and discuss with others if appropriate. > 6) If a significant number of edits to ways can be > definitively proved to be malicious, obscene, libelous or it > is considered that they might bring the project into > disrepute then the related change-sets can be reverted > immediately without discussion and without 100% checking of > the rest of the change-set. > 7) If the edits are dubious but it can't be proved to be > incorrect then one should contact the person and ask for some > additional information. If one don't get a reasonable > response (or gets no > response) and the dubious edits continue and there are not a > good number of balancing clearly positive contributions then > one should look to prove at least one bad edit and may then > come to the decision in discussion with others that it is > appropriate to revert the change- set in question and > potentially all changesets by that person. > 8) Once someone has been identified as a problematic > contributor then one only needs to perform a brief of > inspection of subsequent edits before reversion future > changesets. Liam123 is in this category now. > 9) If the problem continues (Liam123 is actually probably in this > category) then one puts then on 'virtual ban' where their > edits get reverted with no inspection of the merit of the > changes unless the person contacts a sys-admin and says they > have grown-up and want another chance. > 10) I someone performs b
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/3 Peter Miller : > 2) We need to ensure that every contributor is on-balance making the > dataset better, not worse. If the contribution is in doubt we owe it > to other contributors to investigate and respond. This is a situation where the contributions are in doubt, at least in some areas. I think we could borrow some of the conventions from software projects, where the "current" state is considered to be correct until proven incorrect. We already have commit messages like in software repositories so maybe it's a good idea to make the commit messages obligatory too -- obligatory in the sense that any changeset without a good description can be reverted for just that reason by other people. In a software project a commit message needs to: * describe what the change does, * why it's needed (rather than "This changes the way we start up"), * how it does it and why this is the right way to do it (rather than "This fixes a segfault"). Any commit that doesn't have a message containing these three elements is liable to revert and in most cases is reverted until the submitter comes up with a better description. The revert message obviously needs to state what is wrong with the change or the message, sometime by just referencing some rule number (even in wikipedia you have revert messages like "Violates F.O.O.B.A.R.X.Y.Z. section #4"). For OSM the rules would be much more relaxed than in software projects. Since I'm used to writing commit messages I wouldn't mind such a change but maybe I'm crazy and it's way to much bother for normal mappers. Is it? > ... > 8) Once someone has been identified as a problematic contributor then > one only needs to perform a brief of inspection of subsequent edits > before reversion future changesets. Liam123 is in this category now. > 9) If the problem continues (Liam123 is actually probably in this > category) then one puts then on 'virtual ban' where their edits get > reverted with no inspection of the merit of the changes unless the > person contacts a sys-admin and says they have grown-up and want > another chance. Couldn't we just lock such accounts until the person contacts the admin / privileged person, and not have the objects in the database spammed with bogus history? Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On 3 Sep 2009, at 22:17, Someoneelse wrote: > Frederik Ramm wrote: >> ... But I really need people familiar >> with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the >> edits >> are bogus. > > If it helps, I've just looked at a selection of 20 of the 60 ways > edited > in changeset 2308178 by RR8. This covers north Nottinghamshire in > England. One edit looks possibly correct (a road number has been > continued from an adjacent stretch of road; it's possible that that > that > could be legitimate, the other 19 edits do not look likely to be valid > > I've added an entry to the table in > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log > as that's been suggested as a way of keeping track of requests. > > I've looked at a smaller number of ways in other changesets by RR8 in > the surrounding area (Derby / Notts / Sheffield). All look similarly > suspect. > >> Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't >> automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc. > > It certainly looks like he/she/it is messing up Northern England. I think we need to agree on some guidance for response to possible vandals and what level of checking should be performed prior to reversion. Personally I would suggest:- 1) We should expect that all contributors should at all time attempt to make good, accurate and well researched changes 2) We need to ensure that every contributor is on-balance making the dataset better, not worse. If the contribution is in doubt we owe it to other contributors to investigate and respond. 3) We should be aware that people make mistakes, need time to learn and newbies often need and will respond to support 4) We can request, but not require contributors to add a comments to their changesets and to have created a useful personal page with some details about their interest and knowledge. Doing this makes reversion less likely and make it more likely that the person will be helped if needed. 5) In the event that someone seems to be doing strange edits one should initially assume 'good faith' but should watch carefully and discuss with others if appropriate. 6) If a significant number of edits to ways can be definitively proved to be malicious, obscene, libelous or it is considered that they might bring the project into disrepute then the related change-sets can be reverted immediately without discussion and without 100% checking of the rest of the change-set. 7) If the edits are dubious but it can't be proved to be incorrect then one should contact the person and ask for some additional information. If one don't get a reasonable response (or gets no response) and the dubious edits continue and there are not a good number of balancing clearly positive contributions then one should look to prove at least one bad edit and may then come to the decision in discussion with others that it is appropriate to revert the change- set in question and potentially all changesets by that person. 8) Once someone has been identified as a problematic contributor then one only needs to perform a brief of inspection of subsequent edits before reversion future changesets. Liam123 is in this category now. 9) If the problem continues (Liam123 is actually probably in this category) then one puts then on 'virtual ban' where their edits get reverted with no inspection of the merit of the changes unless the person contacts a sys-admin and says they have grown-up and want another chance. 10) I someone performs bad edits in any part of the world then they can expect to be a global response because it seems very unlikely that someone would mess with Ireland and do good work in Iceland and I am not sure I would want to work out what was going on in their head - I would prefer to protect the good work of others from mischief that allow good work to be messed on the off-chance that some good edits are also made in amongst the nonsense. 11) People who revert other people's work should expect to be able to demonstrate that the reversion was well reasoned and proportionate to the issue. Can we work on this a little on the list and if there is agreement copy to resulting text to the wiki? Regards, Peter > > Cheers, > Andy > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Frederik Ramm wrote: > ... But I really need people familiar > with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the edits > are bogus. If it helps, I've just looked at a selection of 20 of the 60 ways edited in changeset 2308178 by RR8. This covers north Nottinghamshire in England. One edit looks possibly correct (a road number has been continued from an adjacent stretch of road; it's possible that that that could be legitimate, the other 19 edits do not look likely to be valid. I've added an entry to the table in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log as that's been suggested as a way of keeping track of requests. I've looked at a smaller number of ways in other changesets by RR8 in the surrounding area (Derby / Notts / Sheffield). All look similarly suspect. > Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't > automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc. It certainly looks like he/she/it is messing up Northern England. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Frederik Ramm : > I'm doing Iceland now because I know I can take your word for it. I have > no idea whether or not the Irish have already begun fixing things but I > can do Ireland as well if they want. But I really need people familiar > with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the edits > are bogus. Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't > automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc. State of Ireland :) All edits were about as bogus as they get. I _believe_ I have reverted all he did, and I did so by hand. If it's straightforward, I'd be happy to see any stray edits of his reverted that I somehow missed. If my manual work makes this tricky, I suggest you expend your kindness on another territory he's broken, because we seem to be back to normality. And as always, thanks for the offer! Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/2 Richard Fairhurst : > The "you" in "you have to be prepared to assess" is not Tom, it's OSMF. OSMF > is the nearest to a community-appointed arbiter that we have. In particular, > it's OSMF's Data Working Group: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_working_group Richard - yes, this is a fair catch. A better way to express it would be "there has to be a 'you' that can assess...". > (Reverts aren't really an issue, to be honest. Many of us do them every day > on an individual level - just clearing up a daft merge, an accidental > deletion, or a confused mistagging. I didn't ask the mailing list for > approval to revert the city of "Bournemouth Square" [sic] this morning, or > to reinstate NCN6 into Kendal yesterday, and so on. The problem comes from > edit wars, i.e. when a revert is followed by a reinstatement, and so on. We > have no indication that RR8 is engaging in an edit war.) This is also true, though on his form, we can expect him to continue making daft edits. Not an edit war, but it shares with edit wars the prospect of continued damage. > The second question, that of banning the user, is more difficult. In some > cases it's probably justified - generally when the user is damaging the map > (large-scale vandalism, infringement, edit war) on an ongoing basis, and has > not responded satisfactorily to attempts to get in touch and resolve the > situation. But this really has to be where OSMF makes the decision, and as > Tom posted earlier, no-one affected by RR8's edits appears to have contacted > OSMF on the issue yet. This is also fair. In OSM we get over-used to the fact that The Major Players are reading what goes down on the lists or IRC. Which is not reasonable. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Hi, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > The revert.pl script doesn't have docs for this and I can't see > anywhere in the code where it would get a list of all changesets by a > user. Right, sorry, my misunderstanding. It does the create/revert/close thing for you but then of course you have one individual changeset for each of his. >> None of this is failure safe but it's worth a try. - What I would probably >> do is download all changesets, merge them into one, sort it suitably, and >> then try to undo the changes en bloc. This would not necessarily work >> better, just give me the feeling of being more in control. > > Combine them how? Using osmosis? I would probably simply concatenate them then use the "oscgrep" utility to retrieve individual changes of a certain type from them. > Anyway would you be willing to do the revert using your tools? I only > want to mess with this if nobody else is willing to. I'm doing Iceland now because I know I can take your word for it. I have no idea whether or not the Irish have already begun fixing things but I can do Ireland as well if they want. But I really need people familiar with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the edits are bogus. Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: >> >> So to revert them all do I just do: >> >> 1. perl changeset.pl create >> >> (& note the id changeset.pl returns) >> >> 2. for vandal_id in $(bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe >> 's/.*changeset="(.*?)".*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n); do perl >> revert.pl $vandal_id $CURRENT_CHANGESET; done >> >> I.e. revert the oldest changesets first. >> >> 3. perl changeset.pl close $CURRENT_CHANGESET "Reverted edits by RR8 >> edits to Iceland. See OSM-talk" > > revert.pl should be able to combine steps 1-3 for you, if you just call > "perl revert.pl $vandal_id". There was a bug in the SVN version which I > hopefully just fixed to allow this. The revert.pl script doesn't have docs for this and I can't see anywhere in the code where it would get a list of all changesets by a userr. > I would suggest to replace "sort | uniq | sort -n" by "sort -run" (reverse > order). That way, if the vandal created a node in changeset 1 and used it to > build a way in changeset 2, you first delete the way and later the node... > rather than the other way round which would fail. Yes sounds good. > None of this is failure safe but it's worth a try. - What I would probably > do is download all changesets, merge them into one, sort it suitably, and > then try to undo the changes en bloc. This would not necessarily work > better, just give me the feeling of being more in control. Combine them how? Using osmosis? Anyway would you be willing to do the revert using your tools? I only want to mess with this if nobody else is willing to. If not all of his changesets then at least the edits he's made to Iceland. Those should all be reverted. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Dermot McNally wrote: > FFS Tom, you can't have it both ways. I understand and respect > that you don't want the final decision resting, by default, with you > as the man with the stick. This being so, you have to be prepared > to assess the claims of individual mappers on their merits, having > regard to the facts. No. The "you" in "you have to be prepared to assess" is not Tom, it's OSMF. OSMF is the nearest to a community-appointed arbiter that we have. In particular, it's OSMF's Data Working Group: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_working_group There are two questions re: RR8; "should his edits be reverted?" and "should he be banned?". We have unanimous agreement on the former, we have tools to do it and people prepared to use them, so all it needs is someone, anyone, to do it. You have suggested that in Ireland that's already happened, so that's good. (Reverts aren't really an issue, to be honest. Many of us do them every day on an individual level - just clearing up a daft merge, an accidental deletion, or a confused mistagging. I didn't ask the mailing list for approval to revert the city of "Bournemouth Square" [sic] this morning, or to reinstate NCN6 into Kendal yesterday, and so on. The problem comes from edit wars, i.e. when a revert is followed by a reinstatement, and so on. We have no indication that RR8 is engaging in an edit war.) The second question, that of banning the user, is more difficult. In some cases it's probably justified - generally when the user is damaging the map (large-scale vandalism, infringement, edit war) on an ongoing basis, and has not responded satisfactorily to attempts to get in touch and resolve the situation. But this really has to be where OSMF makes the decision, and as Tom posted earlier, no-one affected by RR8's edits appears to have contacted OSMF on the issue yet. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-%28assistance-required-in-various-countries%29-tp25230343p25264114.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Sam Vekemans : > Why not assume that the user is 10years old and just learning how to > hack for the first time? Or learning how to make a batch file. Don't > they teach that in basic computer programming class? That's unintentional vandalism then. Still needs quick response to keep the quality of data at any useful level. Users should definitely not be learning basics on a live database. The way people learn things like that is by first observing and then making very localised small changes, then you commit once you're happy with them. If after more than a couple of tens of changesets and messages sent to you by people you're still making wrong changes and don't respond to the messages then we really don't care whether you're a newbie or not, we don't want you, project will not benefit from your contributions. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 02/09/09 19:55, Dermot McNally wrote: > 2009/9/2 Tom Hughes: > >> Yes, but who appointed him as the arbiter? Whoever is making the >> decision needs to be selected by and accountable to the community in >> some way, not self-appointed. > > FFS Tom, you can't have it both ways. I understand and respect that > you don't want the final decision resting, by default, with you as the > man with the stick. This being so, you have to be prepared to assess > the claims of individual mappers on their merits, having regard to the > facts. I absolutely am not going to get involved in evaluating the claims of individual mappers. Both because it would be an inappropriate conflict of interest and because I don't have the time. If the community wants to appoint somebody to do that then that's fine and I will be happy to act on that person's decision. I would not personally vote for such a system however. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/2 Tom Hughes : > Yes, but who appointed him as the arbiter? Whoever is making the > decision needs to be selected by and accountable to the community in > some way, not self-appointed. FFS Tom, you can't have it both ways. I understand and respect that you don't want the final decision resting, by default, with you as the man with the stick. This being so, you have to be prepared to assess the claims of individual mappers on their merits, having regard to the facts. I don't expect you to have prior knowledge of my body of work (and IMHO it's extensive), but a number of members of what is a fairly small Irish community also weighed in. We all presented the facts. And TBH, in the area I map, I _am_ self-appointed as a quality champion, such is the OSM just-do-it culture. I think the problem here is what looks to Joe mapper like mixed messages. The message that we should as much as possible fix vandalism ourselves at local level tells us that we shouldn't expect central intervention. The fact that, say, a copyright violator is hit with the stick of ban suggests OTOH that gross breaches of how-it-should-be-done _will_ be centrally sanctioned. And not enough of us have considered where the dividing line between the two should lie. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
> Well that's the problem - the best thing we have at the moment is the > foundation and it's working groups. In this case the Data Working Group > is the appropriate one I guess. I think a crowdsourced approach against vandalism would scale better than dedicated working-groups. See my Brainstorming on a tool for that. Sorry for my rough tone. I just was a little frustrated as I couldn't find my bottle opener. Now, with a cool beer to my right, i's much better. Btw. this would be a good strategy for RR8, too ;) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
> For the local area mappers, i would recommend the reverse approach. > Assume that the user is 'just a newbie trying to be helpful'. > Has anyone invited this user to a mapping party? He'd have to responde to mail for that. > Why not assume that the user is 10years old and just learning how to > hack for the first time? Or learning how to make a batch file. Don't > they teach that in basic computer programming class? He should be (or get) aware that hacking this way is not good at all, and we won't teach it to him by silently fixing the trail of crap he left behind.. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
+1 agreed, its like me dropping in CanVec data everywhere, and people unaware of whats going on, might act in the offensive. And try to be 'helpful' and start drawing in more features as im copying them over. (not knowing that the file is freely available). I know a bit of Ireland (but not aware, and equally confused of the road classification over there.) it took a couple days of cycling to not turn the wrong way (just out of habbit) :). For the local area mappers, i would recommend the reverse approach. Assume that the user is 'just a newbie trying to be helpful'. Has anyone invited this user to a mapping party? Why not assume that the user is 10years old and just learning how to hack for the first time? Or learning how to make a batch file. Don't they teach that in basic computer programming class? When we learn that 'its been done before" then its no longer fun. :() for the people being destructive. As everyone likes new things. If a live person offers to help, the user quickly learns that we are not a 'closed source' group, but a talented team of the worlds greatest computer geniuses, cartographers, and simply the best software developers there is. ... and volunteers at that. This is a tool for us brilliant minds to map the world. Id say why bother being frustrated at what 1 person who doesn't know what their doing? Why not focus on clearly mapping the area with more details all around? We all know that the mapper is a human. .. and we all make mistakes. When approached as a newbie mapper, you dont want to turn them off. ... just remember what it was like when you started. I remember How frustrating it was to learn all these details. It's a whole new paradigm thinking, let alone a new language.When enough people continue to approach it in a nice way, then that will turn off that user who just is playing. (it's hard to keep mad when everyone around you is happy :-) ... if you want to stay mad, you need to leave the room.) But anyway, im noticing chat about brainstorming ideas of how to quickly revert edits. Brainstorming is good, as long as we keep focused on the goal of a spiral going upwards to making a better wiki world map for the masses, than spiral down and focus on the few who want to be destructive. Happy mapping, Sam Vekemans Across Canada Trails On 9/2/09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2009/9/2 Peter Miller : >> I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear >> to >> me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community >> problem, >> not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations >> where >> a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an >> official email might help. > > this sounds reasonable > >> Banning people is a possible last-resort, > > +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account > and here you are again) > >> but >> this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first >> place >> which should be done by the community. > > +1 > >> I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) > > no, IMHO that's no more graffiti but it's removing the covers of > manholes, maybe even poisoning the drinking water reserve ;-). It is > too big to remove manually. If like throwing a lot of > paint-cluster-bombs over wide areas. Think of 880 ways in Ireland: > that's too much to ask the community to do it manually. Reverts at > that scale (if they are really 100% useless or harmful) should be > dealt with in a more professional way than hitting 880 times "h" in > potlatch. > > Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's > why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more > experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. > > cheers, > Martin > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 02/09/09 18:51, Peter Körner wrote: > Tom Hughes schrieb: >> On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote: >> >>> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM >>> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks >>> like the worst form of vandalism. >> >> As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm >> perfectly capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate >> authority to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, >> jury and executioner in these matters. > > But Dermot McNally already pointed out that this *is* vandalism, at > least in Ireland: > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041412.html > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041397.html > > What more do you want? A Plane-Ticket to fly there and check for > yourself? Sorry for that.. > > I'm seeing people doing investigation, finding things are going mad, > reporting this - and getting ignored. Not one single person has reported it to the Data Working Group as suggested by the wiki page that has already been referred to. >> What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and >> people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should >> be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner. > Just as e.g. Dermot McNally did. Yes, but who appointed him as the arbiter? Whoever is making the decision needs to be selected by and accountable to the community in some way, not self-appointed. >> A group of people demanding that "something by done" on a mailing list >> does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act. > What/Who does constitute a legitimate authority for you? Well that's the problem - the best thing we have at the moment is the foundation and it's working groups. In this case the Data Working Group is the appropriate one I guess. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Tom Hughes schrieb: > On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote: > >> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM >> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks >> like the worst form of vandalism. > > As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm perfectly > capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate authority > to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, jury and > executioner in these matters. But Dermot McNally already pointed out that this *is* vandalism, at least in Ireland: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041412.html http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041397.html What more do you want? A Plane-Ticket to fly there and check for yourself? Sorry for that.. I'm seeing people doing investigation, finding things are going mad, reporting this - and getting ignored. > What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and > people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should > be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner. Just as e.g. Dermot McNally did. > A group of people demanding that "something by done" on a mailing list > does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act. What/Who does constitute a legitimate authority for you? Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Peter Miller : > I think we are needing to agree the protocol on the wiki for > responding the vandalism. Yes, this does seem to be a key part of our difficulty here. The problem is that any random mapper could be the next person who has to deal with vandalism, and most will be ill equipped, won't know the drill, but probably _will_ assume that Somebody Else(tm) has a process that can fix it. At this point I think it's also worth considering that when these kinds of discussions get to the level of heat that this one reached it ends up with the anger of good mappers directed against other good mappers, which is not at all how the anger should be directed... Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Hi, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > So to revert them all do I just do: > > 1. perl changeset.pl create > > (& note the id changeset.pl returns) > > 2. for vandal_id in $(bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe > 's/.*changeset="(.*?)".*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n); do perl > revert.pl $vandal_id $CURRENT_CHANGESET; done > > I.e. revert the oldest changesets first. > > 3. perl changeset.pl close $CURRENT_CHANGESET "Reverted edits by RR8 > edits to Iceland. See OSM-talk" revert.pl should be able to combine steps 1-3 for you, if you just call "perl revert.pl $vandal_id". There was a bug in the SVN version which I hopefully just fixed to allow this. I would suggest to replace "sort | uniq | sort -n" by "sort -run" (reverse order). That way, if the vandal created a node in changeset 1 and used it to build a way in changeset 2, you first delete the way and later the node... rather than the other way round which would fail. None of this is failure safe but it's worth a try. - What I would probably do is download all changesets, merge them into one, sort it suitably, and then try to undo the changes en bloc. This would not necessarily work better, just give me the feeling of being more in control. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On 2 Sep 2009, at 14:54, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lester Caine > wrote: >> Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: >>> I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are >>> completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around >>> the >>> country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random >>> way >>> without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic >>> mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but >>> there >>> have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too >>> widespread to be reverted manually. >> >> It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his >> edits can >> be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert >> them >> all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? > > I haven't looked through /all/ of his edits for Iceland. Currently he > has 880 ways and 306 nodes to his name (user=RR8 in the XML) and I > haven't gone through all his edits. But what I've looked at has been > 100% harmful. > > He's re-classified highways in a manner that's inconsistent, arbitrary > and completely ignores our previously established conventions[1]. > Including marking some things that were highway=primary before as > highway=trunk and introducing highway=motorway in Iceland (which has > no motorways). > > 1. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Is:Map_Features#Highway I think we are needing to agree the protocol on the wiki for responding the vandalism. I have updated the response section of the vandalism page. Please do edit away until on the page and discuss the issues here until it is right. [1] I suggest that where we find someone who has performed a significant number of edits which appear to be gratiffi (be it mindless, malicious, or whatever) and possibly many others that are of no clear benefit and none or very few that on casual inspection of a sample of edits are well researched then we should normally message them and if we don't get a response within 24-48 hours we revert them. If the edits are of a high-profile nature (such as these) we revert first and then message. We also add reverts to an appropriate wiki page to say what we have done. We need a tool that will revert even if further edits have been made on top, and to highlight any ways that require manual attention because the reversion is too complex. We also need a tool to revert the revert in case the reversion was in itself vandalism or ill- thought out. Fyi, we still need this tool to respond for Liam123 who still has many many current edits in the Essex/Kent areas (and also possibly some still in Germany and Spain which he also fiddled with). None of this needs the permission of the Foundation, we are quite able to do this ourselves in the usual way and as Michael Collinson suggested at the AGM the Foundation should only be there to do the things that the community is not able to do (ie Finance and Legal). [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism Regards, Peter > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Pieren wrote: > The main site provides all opportunities for easy vandalism (e.g. > the online editor) Come come - I'm still waiting for you to pass some more details about Cadastre over, so people can use Potlatch for something other than vandalism! (SCNR) > and the community has all opportunities to detect them > (e.g. view contributors edits) but nothing to revert the 145 RR8 > changesets in an easy way Indeed. I guess we're just having this fairly futile discussion while we wait for the magic code-writing fairies to turn up. *waits* svn is that way -> cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-tp25253451p25259239.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's > why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more > experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. > Exactly. Vandalism will increase as project popularity will increase and we are not ready to face that. You cannot rely on experienced/enabled community members as it will happen more and more often. The main site provides all opportunities for easy vandalism (e.g. the online editor) and the community has all opportunities to detect them (e.g. view contributors edits) but nothing to revert the 145 RR8 changesets in an easy way - or at least give a try. We understand that the revert might fail if someone changed the data again but contributors who doesn't want to use perl scripts can accept this and fix them manually. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Martin Koppenhoefer : > 2009/9/2 Peter Miller : >> I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to >> me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, >> not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where >> a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an >> official email might help. > > this sounds reasonable I think it was said in this same thread that it was the DWG's task? > >> Banning people is a possible last-resort, > > +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account > and here you are again) You might want to see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Revert,_block,_ignore I think locking accounts should be one of the tools available to the community, maybe by means of a working group (not like the DWG which is separate from the community judging from Peter's words, and has response times and the "not my problem" attitude worthy of a serious committee-style working group) > Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's > why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more > experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. Also not everybody can develop or deploy tools that can be used directly from osm website or affect other user's permissions, you do need a permission to do that. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his edits can > be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert them > all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? Oh yes "simply". I'm interested in mass-reverting his edits in Iceland. Apparently the revert.pl script can be used for this. And it looks like around 60 changesets have been made by RR8 to Iceland: a...@aoeu:/tmp$ wget -q http://download.geofabrik.de/osm/europe/iceland.osm.bz2 2009-09-02 14:22:47 (138 KB/s) - `iceland.osm.bz2' saved [4204618/4204618] a...@aoeu:/tmp$ bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe 's/.*changeset="(.*?)".*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n | wc -l 61 So to revert them all do I just do: 1. perl changeset.pl create (& note the id changeset.pl returns) 2. for vandal_id in $(bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe 's/.*changeset="(.*?)".*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n); do perl revert.pl $vandal_id $CURRENT_CHANGESET; done I.e. revert the oldest changesets first. 3. perl changeset.pl close $CURRENT_CHANGESET "Reverted edits by RR8 edits to Iceland. See OSM-talk" ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Martin Koppenhoefer : > 2009/9/2 Peter Miller : >> I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to >> me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, >> not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where >> a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an >> official email might help. > > this sounds reasonable > >> Banning people is a possible last-resort, > > +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account > and here you are again) > >> but >> this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place >> which should be done by the community. > > +1 > >> I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) > > no, IMHO that's no more graffiti but it's removing the covers of > manholes, maybe even poisoning the drinking water reserve ;-). It is > too big to remove manually. If like throwing a lot of > paint-cluster-bombs over wide areas. Think of 880 ways in Ireland: > that's too much to ask the community to do it manually. Reverts at > that scale (if they are really 100% useless or harmful) should be > dealt with in a more professional way than hitting 880 times "h" in > potlatch. > > Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's > why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more > experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. > > cheers, > Martin The thread was started for consensus on whether the edits were vandalism, and what should be done. Now we're at a stage that we've confirmed it is 100% harmful, we can get them reverted. -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Peter Miller : > I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to > me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, > not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where > a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an > official email might help. this sounds reasonable > Banning people is a possible last-resort, +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account and here you are again) > but > this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place > which should be done by the community. +1 > I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) no, IMHO that's no more graffiti but it's removing the covers of manholes, maybe even poisoning the drinking water reserve ;-). It is too big to remove manually. If like throwing a lot of paint-cluster-bombs over wide areas. Think of 880 ways in Ireland: that's too much to ask the community to do it manually. Reverts at that scale (if they are really 100% useless or harmful) should be dealt with in a more professional way than hitting 880 times "h" in potlatch. Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: >> I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are >> completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the >> country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way >> without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic >> mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there >> have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too >> widespread to be reverted manually. > > It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his edits can > be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert them > all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? I haven't looked through /all/ of his edits for Iceland. Currently he has 880 ways and 306 nodes to his name (user=RR8 in the XML) and I haven't gone through all his edits. But what I've looked at has been 100% harmful. He's re-classified highways in a manner that's inconsistent, arbitrary and completely ignores our previously established conventions[1]. Including marking some things that were highway=primary before as highway=trunk and introducing highway=motorway in Iceland (which has no motorways). 1. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Is:Map_Features#Highway ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Peter Miller wrote: > Banning people is a possible last-resort, but this does not deal > with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place which should > be done by the community. Absolutely. If RR88 started messing with "my" beloved cycle routes I'd be straight in there with revert.pl. I would strongly encourage the Icelanders and the Irish to do the same, right now. You know the area; you know if an edit is right or wrong; you can make it right again. It might be helpful to create a wiki page to co-ordinate efforts, like this one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-tp25253451p25257965.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On 2 Sep 2009, at 13:18, Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too widespread to be reverted manually. I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an official email might help. Banning people is a possible last-resort, but this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place which should be done by the community. I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) should be dealt with by the community. I believe that we need better tools to do this. Let's learn from the many Wikipedia 'counter-vandalism' tools which are available for use.[1] I don't believe that anyone needs permission to develop, deploy or use such OSM counter-vandalism tools and would encourage people to do so. I would of course ask developers and users to follow the guidelines for bots.[2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_counter-vandalism_tools [2]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct Regards, Peter -- Bjarki Sigursveinsson bja...@gmail.com +354 8215644 Múlalandi 12 (403) 400 Ísafjörður, Iceland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: > I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are > completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the > country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way > without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic > mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there > have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too > widespread to be reverted manually. It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his edits can be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert them all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Jennifer Campbell wrote: > Tom Hughes wrote: >> On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote: >> >>> Richard Fairhurst wrote: >>> >>> Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing, >>> although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does >>> hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green >>> signs remain? >>> >> I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does >> not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed >> almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary >> route which means it will have green signs. >> >> Tom > In Scotland, Primary does mean Trunk. Jenny - even in Scotland the Trunk routes are maintained by a central contract while Primary routes are now maintained by the local authorities. Some routes that were ORIGINALLY 'primary' have been declassified so that the local authorities are not required to maintain them to the same standard as required for a Primary/Trunk route. OSM still works to the format when ALL primary routes were maintained by central government and were identified by their 'green' Trunk route designation ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:59 AM, Andy Allan wrote: > On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Pieren wrote: > > > And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins > > You're a gold-level member of the OSMF, right? Y'know, the level that > means your annual membership fee is the same cost as a full time admin > to do your beck and call, right? > Don't speak like that... You can't resume any personal investment only based on money. Pieren is a great contributor, helping newbies on the french list, active on discution about all corner of the project, and even the developper of the Cadastre plugin for JOSM. As you are capitalizing all about money... time is money right ? I guess he is a diamond-level contributor... And what.. If you are not member of OSMF, you are not contributing to the project and you can't tell what you think ? > > Didn't think so. > > > until a real > > "revert in one click" is possible from the interface like in > > wikipedia. > > You'll be waiting a loonnngg time for that then. Unless > you have some l33t h4x0rz skills you're willing to share? He has. Using it to help mapping from French Cadastre... > After all, > everyone else who's worked on revert code has consistently said on > these mailing lists "oh yeah, a revert button would be trivial, I'll > do it tomorrow". Oh, wait, no we didn't. > This is not meaning we won't have one soon. > > I understand what it's like dealing with vandals, so I know why your > annoyed. But please don't start demanding stuff on the mailing lists > from other volunteers, admins or not, it's not going to get anything > solved. > Like under-estimating others... it's an open-crowd-project, every one can contribute, even by just clues or ideas. > > Cheers, > Andy > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : ste...@jabber.fr 0x39494CCB 2FF7 226B 552E 4709 03F0 6281 72D7 A010 3949 4CCB ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Tom Hughes wrote: > On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote: > >> Richard Fairhurst wrote: >> >> Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing, >> although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does >> hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green >> signs remain? >> > > I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does > not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed > almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary > route which means it will have green signs. > > Tom In Scotland, Primary does mean Trunk. Jenny ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too widespread to be reverted manually. -- Bjarki Sigursveinsson bja...@gmail.com +354 8215644 Múlalandi 12 (403) 400 Ísafjörður, Iceland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Richard Bullock : > But some dual carriageway *has* been upgraded to motorway recently - August > 28th - 294km worth - (including some sections under construction) I know - I upgraded them. This mapper took all the bits that have not been upgraded, upgraded them anyway, and opened up all the under-construction sections for good measure. Random behaviour... Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Richard Bullock : >>I'll go over what the mapper did in Ireland, which to me is the >>clearest case of (at least) reckless incompetence (an ill that can be >>cured through communication, but only with two-way communication): >> >>* All motorway under construction marked complete. Including adding >>amateurish (wrong way, driving on right) stubs to make the pieces >>connect. >> >>* Most long-distance dual-carriageways up-tagged to motorways, >>including the changing of refs (e.g. N7-M7) >> >>* Slip roads on the up-classified sections retagged to motorway (not >>motorway_link) >> >>In all, about 2-200km of road were retagged with no basis whatsoever > > > But some dual carriageway *has* been upgraded to motorway recently - August > 28th - 294km worth - (including some sections under construction) > > See http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10193-PRESS_RELEASE1_-0.DOC > > Having said that, I reviewed some changes done in Derbyshire in the UK and > they looked horribly wrong. Didn't seem to move any nodes, but road numbers > were changed, road classifications changed without any clear indication as > to why. Some highway=primary reclassified as highway=secondary with > fabricated B-road numbers. Some fairly minor roads upgraded to > highway=secondary or highway=primary, again with fabricated route numbers. > I'll be happy to revert these particular edits. > > Most of the edits are not in areas I know well enough. Most seem to be in > Iceland. > > Richard Please leave the ways untouched for now, it'll be easier to revert the whole changeset in the long run. -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
>I'll go over what the mapper did in Ireland, which to me is the >clearest case of (at least) reckless incompetence (an ill that can be >cured through communication, but only with two-way communication): > >* All motorway under construction marked complete. Including adding >amateurish (wrong way, driving on right) stubs to make the pieces >connect. > >* Most long-distance dual-carriageways up-tagged to motorways, >including the changing of refs (e.g. N7-M7) > >* Slip roads on the up-classified sections retagged to motorway (not >motorway_link) > >In all, about 2-200km of road were retagged with no basis whatsoever But some dual carriageway *has* been upgraded to motorway recently - August 28th - 294km worth - (including some sections under construction) See http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10193-PRESS_RELEASE1_-0.DOC Having said that, I reviewed some changes done in Derbyshire in the UK and they looked horribly wrong. Didn't seem to move any nodes, but road numbers were changed, road classifications changed without any clear indication as to why. Some highway=primary reclassified as highway=secondary with fabricated B-road numbers. Some fairly minor roads upgraded to highway=secondary or highway=primary, again with fabricated route numbers. I'll be happy to revert these particular edits. Most of the edits are not in areas I know well enough. Most seem to be in Iceland. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
From: "Frederik Ramm" > > Pieren wrote: >> I say that because I spent a little bit time to look the edits of this >> person, working intensively in different countries with a lot of short >> edits and after one day of the first alarms about this user. > > But do you even have anyhing to prove that this is vandalism? Just > because a new account makes lots of edits in different places doesn't > mean anything... I ran into just this sort of thing with a new account set up about a day after our RR8 friend.Rapid edits in several countries; dirt tracks in Italy and the wilds of Canada... and a boulevard near me in what was last an open field in the most recent aerial photography. The boulevard was in 2 segments which overlapped each other, didn't connect to any other roadway, and one of them was mis-spelled. So I asked the mapper where they got their information for the new roadway - they replied that they used to live here and had a legitimate web reference to the new road name and location. So I believe that the way(s) in my area are real and just created from a rough GPS track, or perhaps even from memory.I'll run a GPS track survey on it next time I drive by there. So while I have no way of knowing about RR8, I can appreciate the process not instantly vaporizing suspicious activity.Hopefully the RR8 will be resolved without people losing work. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/2 Frederik Ramm : > But do you even have anyhing to prove that this is vandalism? Just > because a new account makes lots of edits in different places doesn't > mean anything... there might be a pre-existing group of people on some > mailing list and one of them says "hey, check out OSM, I've set up this > account and you can all used it..." - not the best of ideas but not > vandalism either. I'll go over what the mapper did in Ireland, which to me is the clearest case of (at least) reckless incompetence (an ill that can be cured through communication, but only with two-way communication): * All motorway under construction marked complete. Including adding amateurish (wrong way, driving on right) stubs to make the pieces connect. * Most long-distance dual-carriageways up-tagged to motorways, including the changing of refs (e.g. N7-M7) * Slip roads on the up-classified sections retagged to motorway (not motorway_link) In all, about 2-200km of road were retagged with no basis whatsoever. I won't imply malice, but if I see a baby with a can of spray paint defacing my house wall I'll act just as quickly as if it were a teenager signing his initials. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/2 Andy Allan : > On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Dermot McNally wrote: > >> But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage >> with community members. >> >> Action required. > > Yes. By you. > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism#Vandalism_response > > Doesn't mention demanding "action" on the mailing list. Steady Andy. I did all of what was mentioned on that page, with the exception of doing the fixing myself. That was my evening last night. And I don't expect a lynching based on unfounded allegations either - It has been identified in great detail here why we are crying vandalism. I've encountered all kinds of incompetence and poor judgement from OSM users and this is the first time I've called foul in such a public way. I'm not crying wolf here. So please, let's all try to be similarly constructive. I know that some of these things are hard to do or weighed down with other baggage. So let's discuss all that and work out what we _should_ do. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Hi, Pieren wrote: > I say that because I spent a little bit time to look the edits of this > person, working intensively in different countries with a lot of short > edits and after one day of the first alarms about this user. But do you even have anyhing to prove that this is vandalism? Just because a new account makes lots of edits in different places doesn't mean anything... there might be a pre-existing group of people on some mailing list and one of them says "hey, check out OSM, I've set up this account and you can all used it..." - not the best of ideas but not vandalism either. > That's why I say it is the worst form of vandalism. They "look" like > normal edits but it is done very shortly in different countries which > is also questionning about the source of the changes. Is there any proof that these are not normal edits? (Bear in mind that sometimes even "normal edits" break something.) > And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins until a real > "revert in one click" is possible from the interface like in > wikipedia. I'm sorry but I have not heard anything from you that would make me think it would be good to have a "revert in one click" function. You sound as if you'd revert anything you find suspicious... Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 01/09/2009 23:40, Tom Hughes wrote: > On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote: > >> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM >> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks >> like the worst form of vandalism. > > As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm perfectly > capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate authority > to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, jury and > executioner in these matters. > > What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and > people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should > be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner. > > A group of people demanding that "something by done" on a mailing list > does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act. > > After all no matter how "obvious" this or any other case might be in > general terms I can't possibly personally determine who is right in any > particular case, nor can I set any sort of quorum as to how big the > lynch mob on the mailing lists needs to be to trigger action because I > can't know if they are people with a legitimate grievance or are indeed > just a lynch mob. Indeed, that puts you in an invidious position. I had a look at a few of his edits, and while a B road in the UK midlands was simply invention, a change to the A9 in the far north of Scotland was indeed correct (though incomplete). A node for Keflavik airport in Iceland was created in one of its car parks (when it already had one nearby). On the general point, I wonder whether a mechanism to lock the objects affected by a particular changeset from further change might be useful so that when we have a suspected case we can freeze its objects until we can make a decision, so that it can be simply reverted rather than ending up with conflicting later changes (often people trying to make manual corrections)? Automatically locking further changes by a particular user may also be useful once suspected - more so than banning them, as a determined individual will just open a new account. We've seen two or three users now making calculated, plausible edits that are actually wrong, which is a much harder case to deal with than wholesale crude deletion or scribbling because it needs local knowledge. Ireland people, why don't you just revert the changesets you personally know to be wrong yourselves - any user can do this, and Frederick's perl script is publicly available in svn and isn't hard to set up and use. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Dermot McNally wrote: > But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage > with community members. > > Action required. Yes. By you. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism#Vandalism_response Doesn't mention demanding "action" on the mailing list. So do it properly (especially the bit about assuming good faith), document what's going on, build a list of concrete examples - i.e. put a case together (maybe on the wiki?). If it's not possible to resolve within the community (messages, emails, offering the guy help, explaining the trunk/primary issues etc), then contact the DWG - but please don't just email them with a "ban this guy cause I say he's a vandal" type email; do it properly, give them convincing case notes. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Pieren wrote: > And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins You're a gold-level member of the OSMF, right? Y'know, the level that means your annual membership fee is the same cost as a full time admin to do your beck and call, right? Didn't think so. > until a real > "revert in one click" is possible from the interface like in > wikipedia. You'll be waiting a loonnngg time for that then. Unless you have some l33t h4x0rz skills you're willing to share? After all, everyone else who's worked on revert code has consistently said on these mailing lists "oh yeah, a revert button would be trivial, I'll do it tomorrow". Oh, wait, no we didn't. I understand what it's like dealing with vandals, so I know why your annoyed. But please don't start demanding stuff on the mailing lists from other volunteers, admins or not, it's not going to get anything solved. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/2 Frederik Ramm : > Pieren wrote: >> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM >> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks >> like the worst form of vandalism. > > Comments like that are not helpful at all. If that's really your > attitude then find yourself a tightly controlled, non-crowdsourced project. On wikipedia perhaps 10 or 15 malicious edits can get you blocked. I know this is not wikipedia but this part happens to work very well and in this case it would have saved people lots of work and time, which we always lack. Additionally wikipedia was criticised a lot in media for allowing anyone to break stuff and it would be a pity if OSM acquires the same fame in the media and among serious vendors. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote: > I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM > if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks > like the worst form of vandalism. As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm perfectly capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate authority to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, jury and executioner in these matters. What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner. A group of people demanding that "something by done" on a mailing list does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act. After all no matter how "obvious" this or any other case might be in general terms I can't possibly personally determine who is right in any particular case, nor can I set any sort of quorum as to how big the lynch mob on the mailing lists needs to be to trigger action because I can't know if they are people with a legitimate grievance or are indeed just a lynch mob. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Pieren wrote: >> >> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM >> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks >> like the worst form of vandalism. > > Comments like that are not helpful at all. If that's really your attitude > then find yourself a tightly controlled, non-crowdsourced project. I say that because I spent a little bit time to look the edits of this person, working intensively in different countries with a lot of short edits and after one day of the first alarms about this user. > What do you expect "the admins" to do? Drop their day job and chase after > someone where even people on the mailing lists say they are not really sure > if this is vandalism or not? Come on! > > I don't understand the urgency either. It's not like this guy is deleting > half of the data. Let him do his thing for a while and then we'll perhaps > have a clearer picture of what he's up to. He might even have answered an > e-Mail by then. If people wouldn't get all upset and flap their wings like a > bunch of hens then we could calmly investigate what is happening - and if we > find that we want to remove his edits in a week or two, we can still do it. That's why I say it is the worst form of vandalism. They "look" like normal edits but it is done very shortly in different countries which is also questionning about the source of the changes. And about reverting, you mention yourself that reverting is more complicated or even impossible if you wait too long. And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins until a real "revert in one click" is possible from the interface like in wikipedia. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Hi, Pieren wrote: > I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM > if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks > like the worst form of vandalism. Comments like that are not helpful at all. If that's really your attitude then find yourself a tightly controlled, non-crowdsourced project. What do you expect "the admins" to do? Drop their day job and chase after someone where even people on the mailing lists say they are not really sure if this is vandalism or not? Come on! I don't understand the urgency either. It's not like this guy is deleting half of the data. Let him do his thing for a while and then we'll perhaps have a clearer picture of what he's up to. He might even have answered an e-Mail by then. If people wouldn't get all upset and flap their wings like a bunch of hens then we could calmly investigate what is happening - and if we find that we want to remove his edits in a week or two, we can still do it. Yes, it is always easier to undo a change when it is still fresh, but "shoot first, as questions later" is certainly not "the admins"' motto, and I am grateful for that. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Larry O'Neill wrote: > What Dermot is saying with regard to the edits this user made in > Ireland is correct. > This users editing was careless, ignorant, and whimsical. I have yet > to decide if it was malicious. > I think It may be a good idea to contact contributors in Iceland > (where he has done more editing than elsewhere) to ask if his edits > are justified, or as destructive as his edits in Ireland. > > > Thanks > Larry I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks like the worst form of vandalism. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
What Dermot is saying with regard to the edits this user made in Ireland is correct. This users editing was careless, ignorant, and whimsical. I have yet to decide if it was malicious. I think It may be a good idea to contact contributors in Iceland (where he has done more editing than elsewhere) to ask if his edits are justified, or as destructive as his edits in Ireland. Thanks Larry On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Dermot McNally wrote: > 2009/9/1 Lester Caine : > >> I was going to say - seconded but I think that some of the changes just >> need cross referencing. > > I can't speak for his edits elsewhere (though some seem to have been > at best incautious), but every _single_ change he made in Ireland (and > there were many) was: > > a) wrong > b) clearly completely uninformed > c) not at all considered > d) damaging > e) troublesome to revert > > He doesn't even seem to know what side of the road we drive on... > > Add to this the fact that he has not responded to any message sent by > other mappers. If an admin with access to his email address wishes to > give him the benefit of the doubt on that one and try email, be my > guest. > > But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage > with community members. > > Action required. > > Dermot > > -- > -- > Iren sind menschlich > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/1 Lester Caine : > I was going to say - seconded but I think that some of the changes just > need cross referencing. I can't speak for his edits elsewhere (though some seem to have been at best incautious), but every _single_ change he made in Ireland (and there were many) was: a) wrong b) clearly completely uninformed c) not at all considered d) damaging e) troublesome to revert He doesn't even seem to know what side of the road we drive on... Add to this the fact that he has not responded to any message sent by other mappers. If an admin with access to his email address wishes to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one and try email, be my guest. But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage with community members. Action required. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Tom Hughes wrote: > On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote: >> Richard Fairhurst wrote: >>> Tom Hughes wrote: Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being primary A roads with green signs). >>> >>> Indeed: >>> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074 >>> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953 >> >> Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing, >> although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does >> hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green >> signs remain? > > I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does > not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed > almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary > route which means it will have green signs. Actually Tom - even Traffic Scotland show the A816 as a simple A road rather than a primary route. Although the section from the A85 down to Oban does seem to be ambiguous. The rest of the route is not a green one on their listings. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote: > Richard Fairhurst wrote: >> Tom Hughes wrote: >>> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least >>> some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being >>> primary A roads with green signs). >> >> Indeed: >> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074 >> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953 > > Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing, > although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does > hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green > signs remain? I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary route which means it will have green signs. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Tom Hughes wrote: >> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least >> some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being >> primary A roads with green signs). > > Indeed: > http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074 > http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953 Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing, although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green signs remain? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Tom Hughes wrote: > Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least > some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being > primary A roads with green signs). Indeed: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074 http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953 cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-%28assistance-required-in-various-countries%29-tp25230343p25237163.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Tom Hughes wrote: > On 01/09/09 09:16, Lester Caine wrote: > >> 2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route >> which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except -> >> I think that it would be useful to designate >> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and >> primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the >> 'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the >> A816 is 'non-primary' > > Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least some > parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being primary A roads > with green signs). Certainly four segments of the A816 are listed in the > data Morwen got from the DfT describing the primary route network. I think that probably highlights the point - what is the best REFERENCE for this information? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 01/09/09 10:13, Lester Caine wrote: > Tom Hughes wrote: >> On 01/09/09 09:16, Lester Caine wrote: >> >>> 2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route >>> which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except -> >>> I think that it would be useful to designate >>> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and >>> primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the >>> 'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the >>> A816 is 'non-primary' >> >> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least some >> parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being primary A roads >> with green signs). Certainly four segments of the A816 are listed in the >> data Morwen got from the DfT describing the primary route network. > > I think that probably highlights the point - what is the best REFERENCE > for this information? Well in the absence of the DfT information, which was obtained under FOIA and is still copyright so can't be generally passed out, looking at the signs to see if they are white or green is the best solution! Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 01/09/09 09:16, Lester Caine wrote: > 2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route > which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except -> > I think that it would be useful to designate > http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and > primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the > 'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the > A816 is 'non-primary' Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being primary A roads with green signs). Certainly four segments of the A816 are listed in the data Morwen got from the DfT describing the primary route network. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Clifford Nolan wrote: > Please stop this person from doing any more damage. RR8 is still > editing as I write - can the account be suspended a.s.a.p., please? I was going to say - seconded but I think that some of the changes just need cross referencing. 2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except -> I think that it would be useful to designate http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the 'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the A816 is 'non-primary' Without a clean method of identification some of these aspects are subject to personal interpretation, but saber-roads would seem to provide a clean list of Motorway - Green Route - Other A roads and B roads - which fits nicely with the M,T,P and S levels on OSM. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Please stop this person from doing any more damage. RR8 is still editing as I write - can the account be suspended a.s.a.p., please? -- Regards, Cliff. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
To add to this, this user is failing to reply to messages and continuing to edit (currently in Iceland). I can't speak for the usefulness of his edits there, but he certainly seems prolific. Right now I'm torn between my desire to fix the core of the Irish road network and my fear that he'll break it again. Can we reach some consensus for damage limitation action here? (like a ban until this loon explains himself...) Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Hi list, Attention was drawn to the OSM user RR8 last night on IRC. It appears that they have been producing /apparently/ deconstructive edits at a high frequency since late Saturday evening (server time). Edits primarily are the reclassification of highways to a different level. This has occured frequently in the East Midlands (often including a change of reference number that cannot be confirmed from other sources), places in Ireland where under-construction motorways have been marked as opened, and a few reclassifications elsewhere, most notably Iceland. The edits appear to look constructive, but are more likely to be destructive. Ideally, someone local to the areas in question should check a few of the changes, or we could get people from the mailing list to consider the edits as a whole to decide what's to be done about them. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RR8/edits -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
