Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
2012/8/2 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: iONiX wrote: What when street is renamed and you want to send a letter, or some poi is located there and have its official address with new name, but old signs are still installed (for months or years). Do You really still want to rely on those old signs on the street? If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and in my book that is not even up for discussion! If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong, and should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ... we have a similar issue for road reference numbers in Italy (or at least in parts of Italy), where the maintenance of some national roads passed from the country to the regions (or provinces), resulting in a change of the official refs from (e.g.) SS7 to SR7, or in other cases the ref was simply changed (e.g. from GRA to A90 in the case of the circular motorway around Rome (GrandeRaccordoAnnulare). This is even documented in the English wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Raccordo_Anulare (The official number among the Italian motorways is A90, although barely known and not found anywhere on road signs. It's widely known by Romans as Il Raccordo.) As these changes have already happened (on the paper) in some cases 10 years and more ago and still the road signs show the old refs (in many cases, not in all), we decided to change these refs back to what is still on the signs, and to record the official reference number in a tag official_ref. Hereby the map consumers get the information they need when following street signs, and the mappers don't have to dig deep into administrative details if they don't want to (on the ground rule). For the Belarussian case this would mean to keep in name what is on the signs (if they are consistent and not half new half old) and to put the now official name in a tag official_name. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: As these changes have already happened (on the paper) in some cases 10 years and more ago and still the road signs show the old refs (in many cases, not in all), we decided to change these refs back to what is still on the signs, and to record the official reference number in a tag official_ref. Same issue in France excepted that the replacement of the old reference signs is almost completed. So we decided to keep the official reference in ref and keep the old one in old_ref even in the few cases the ground rule is outdated. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 13 August 2012 13:51, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: For the Belarussian case this would mean to keep in name what is on the signs (if they are consistent and not half new half old) and to put the now official name in a tag official_name. And that is exactly the problem, there is inconsistency on the ground across the whole country Crimea included. This goes up to the point when on a single street some buildings have Russian rendering and some have Ukrainian. Also in number of cases the street signs on the buildings are in Russian, but all direction signs around have Ukrainian spelling. If you follow closely the 'on the ground rule' and put what you see to 'name' key, you will end up with mix in language in majority of the cities. The map will be not really convenient, since primary search values are in mix of languages. Eugene ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
2012/8/13 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Same issue in France excepted that the replacement of the old reference signs is almost completed. So we decided to keep the official reference in ref and keep the old one in old_ref even in the few cases the ground rule is outdated. +1, we also keep old_ref tags. Re-checking the GRA after my email above, the official reference is tagged as nat_ref=A90 and not official_ref, while ref and old_ref are GRA, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/28216214 we might add a loc_name=Il Raccordo ;-) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Am 03.08.2012 02:19, schrieb Eugene Sandulenko: Moreover, having unpredictable mix in 'name' will degrade quality of any navigational maps or geocoding. While I cannot say anything regarding your other points, and, to be clear, I don't oppose you in general, I would like to disagree with this argument: Having an unpredictable mix in name will not degrade quality of anything, as long as you provide the languaged tags, too. We have the discussion about that currently in another thread - and I think, this edit war is an additional argument on not using lang=* as a separate tag but to use redundant name tags: To fix navigational maps and geocoding, use all useful localized variants: independent of what's in name, use name:ru, name:crimea (or whatever language code crimean has, I'm not sure, sorry), name:en. Navigational maps and geocoding software that does not use these tags, too, is broken - and it should be possible to fix it. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 3 August 2012 11:07, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Moreover, having unpredictable mix in 'name' will degrade quality of any navigational maps or geocoding. While I cannot say anything regarding your other points, and, to be clear, I don't oppose you in general, I would like to disagree with this argument: Having an unpredictable mix in name will not degrade quality of anything, as long as you provide the languaged tags, too. Of course. The thing is, that we (overall Ukrainian community) do care about having all three languages in toponyms (Russian, Ukrainan, English), while the edit war started by silently killing Ukrainian. Which brings another question: What does everyone think if we go through all Ukraine and copy name tag with Ukrainian in it into name:uk? This will be a huge semi-automated task. Any opinions? Eugene ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Am 03.08.2012 12:55, schrieb Eugene Sandulenko: On 3 August 2012 11:07, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Moreover, having unpredictable mix in 'name' will degrade quality of any navigational maps or geocoding. While I cannot say anything regarding your other points, and, to be clear, I don't oppose you in general, I would like to disagree with this argument: Having an unpredictable mix in name will not degrade quality of anything, as long as you provide the languaged tags, too. Of course. The thing is, that we (overall Ukrainian community) do care about having all three languages in toponyms (Russian, Ukrainan, English), while the edit war started by silently killing Ukrainian. Which brings another question: What does everyone think if we go through all Ukraine and copy name tag with Ukrainian in it into name:uk? This will be a huge semi-automated task. Any opinions? If it's clear that with that ukrainian goes to name:uk, I'm pretty sure that will be a good choice - and that's what I proposed here. And: I'm sure if anybody deletes name:uk, without the values being wrong (e.g. because your semi automated edit wrongly copied a russian name from name to name:uk ;) ), that would be opposed by a strong majority all over the world. The generic name tag is more difficult and has to be solved otherwise; as I think Fred still mentioned, in the Palestine/Israel region there was the situation where in fact name was deleted completely and only the two conflicting name:he and name:ar (I think, while I'm not sure) had been kept. Thus: deleting name:uk containing correct values before is seen as clear vandalism, so go for it and use the localized variants at least. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Hi, how of it comes, than none of responses in ukrainian forum (http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=17533) were quoted here? Neither this discussion here were referenced by DWG in that thread. Where can I see discussion of DWG members to this issue? I am still waiting for answers to my questions: 1. Will be same decision made in other parts of the world, if similar problems will come up? 2. Information on signs is more important and should be retained in OSM DB even if its proven to be wrong through legislation rulings? We showed examples in forum, why it is not that simple to follow truth on the ground rule in ukraine. Here are some examples from me: According to decision of DWG, I am allowed to put in name on this street ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/28294508 ): * Горпіщенко вулиця - based on this sign ( http://maps.yandex.ru/?ll=33.582431%2C44.575244spn=0.322723%2C0.052269z=12l=map%2Cstvol=stvoll=33.58243141%2C44.57524375oid=ost=dir%3A-781.4530422609022%2C0.3683170147894477~spn%3A53.227793344151856%2C22.314288181632726 ) * Горпищенко улица - based on this sign ( http://maps.yandex.ru/?ll=33.561943%2C44.598033spn=0.080681%2C0.013062z=14l=map%2Cstvol=stvoll=33.55808017%2C44.59803342oid=ost=dir%3A-864.3647996084189%2C0.18506825302051144~spn%3A53.227793344151856%2C22.314288181632726 ) In both cases it would be correct and not against the decision, because: * this are two different signs * they are not installed under each other * moreover, they are installed in totally different places (in case I see only one of those signs) It seems, this sign ( http://maps.yandex.ru/?ll=33.514916%2C44.585732spn=1.290894%2C0.209039z=10l=map%2Cstvol=stvoll=33.51491593%2C44.58573223oid=ost=dir%3A232.7167932632227%2C-2.0492579426501294~spn%3A53.227793344151856%2C22.314288181632726 ) does not have status part. In both languages name of the street is Кожанова, but status part in ukrainian would be вулиця in russian улица. Should status part be removed from street name completely? What when street is renamed and you want to send a letter, or some poi is located there and have its official address with new name, but old signs are still installed (for months or years). Do You really still want to rely on those old signs on the street? Here another quote from user Upliner: However, I still hope for a more amicable solution. For example, Belarusian community decided to use Russian language in name tag in spite of the fact that there are lot of Belarusian street signs in Minsk (I don't know how it is in other cities). For rendering in Belarusian language they use separate Mapnik server. Do I have now permission from DWG to go and change all name tags on streets that have belarusian signs? I do not want to change name tags to ukrainian language in Crimea for now, but it is not an acceptable solution from DWG we now have to respect. Kind regards, iONiX ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
iONiX wrote: What when street is renamed and you want to send a letter, or some poi is located there and have its official address with new name, but old signs are still installed (for months or years). Do You really still want to rely on those old signs on the street? Most definitely for the main rendered detail, and if there are two different versions I would show them exactly where they appear on the ground. But for additional information related to a particular language, then that should simply be correctly tagged and stored. It may be that there is an additional note that explains that one of two signs is wrong, but until what is visible on the ground is changed, the base information is well defined - even if it is totally wrong :) And that applies everywhere in the world ... EVEN if some local authority try to dictate otherwise. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 02.08.2012 20:57, Lester Caine wrote: iONiX wrote: What when street is renamed and you want to send a letter, or some poi is located there and have its official address with new name, but old signs are still installed (for months or years). Do You really still want to rely on those old signs on the street? Most definitely for the main rendered detail, and if there are two different versions I would show them exactly where they appear on the ground. But for additional information related to a particular language, then that should simply be correctly tagged and stored. It may be that there is an additional note that explains that one of two signs is wrong, but until what is visible on the ground is changed, the base information is well defined - even if it is totally wrong :) And that applies everywhere in the world ... EVEN if some local authority try to dictate otherwise. Have You read about new old naming? An I mean not old like russian and new like ukrainian, I mean it regardless the language. If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all exUSSR countries and change every object name tag to whatever is mentioned on signs? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Hi, On 02.08.2012 20:43, iONiX wrote: 1. Will be same decision made in other parts of the world, if similar problems will come up? It depends, but the on the ground rule is often the best available compromise. (Another possible compromise is to say that no name tags are allowed at all in the region, which means that there will be no labels on openstreetmap.org - then every party is forced to use a different tile server that serves name:xx tags of their choice. We did that with Jerusalem once but people weren't happy.) In general, DWG prefers to be not involved at all. If we have a community of grown-up and compassionate mappers who recognize that the other side has a point, and who sit together to find a solution that is acceptable to all, then that is certainly preferable. 2. Information on signs is more important and should be retained in OSM DB even if its proven to be wrong through legislation rulings? I think that in cases where *no* conflict exists - i.e. a street is renamed from A street to B street and there is nobody who says but all of us here locally still say A street then it is acceptable to edit it EVEN IF the old name is still on a sign. However, if the edit has even the slightest cultural component - for example, central government resolves that street name should be B but local people still use A - then the renaming has to wait until central government actually puts up a sign. We showed examples in forum, why it is not that simple to follow truth on the ground rule in ukraine. Here are some examples from me: Yes, it is not simple. The simplest solution would be to say that all names in the Crimea shold be in Russian, or all names should be in Ukrainian - the two extreme positions that led to the edit war. Do you have a better *compromise* solution, or are you arguing for one of the extreme positions? If you have a better *compromise* solution, get the buy in from all involved parties and DWG won't stand in your way when you execute it. It seems, this sign ( http://maps.yandex.ru/?ll=33.514916%2C44.585732spn=1.290894%2C0.209039z=10l=map%2Cstvol=stvoll=33.51491593%2C44.58573223oid=ost=dir%3A232.7167932632227%2C-2.0492579426501294~spn%3A53.227793344151856%2C22.314288181632726 ) does not have status part. In both languages name of the street is Кожанова, but status part in ukrainian would be вулиця in russian улица. Should status part be removed from street name completely? Yes, because as soon as you invent this status part, you will offend someone, no matter whether you choose the Ukrainian or the Russian version of the status part. What when street is renamed and you want to send a letter, or some poi is located there and have its official address with new name, but old signs are still installed (for months or years). Do You really still want to rely on those old signs on the street? I belive that in this case, all involved mappers would be happy when the street is renamed, no edit war would ensue, and DWG would happily accept this violation of the rule. Do I have now permission from DWG to go and change all name tags on streets that have belarusian signs? If there are any streets with Belarusian signs in the Crimea, then you're welcome to change them. I do not want to change name tags to ukrainian language in Crimea for now, but it is not an acceptable solution from DWG we now have to respect. Given that the extreme solutions all names in Russian and all names in Ukrainian are not acceptable either, what would you suggest? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
If your (or anybody elses) politicians are so dumb that they make rules for which they have no money to implement, then you should vote them out of office next time. If your postmen can't find an old address for streets where the signs have not changed, they should be looking for a new job. -- --- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
iONiX wrote: iONiX wrote: What when street is renamed and you want to send a letter, or some poi is located there and have its official address with new name, but old signs are still installed (for months or years). Do You really still want to rely on those old signs on the street? Most definitely for the main rendered detail, and if there are two different versions I would show them exactly where they appear on the ground. But for additional information related to a particular language, then that should simply be correctly tagged and stored. It may be that there is an additional note that explains that one of two signs is wrong, but until what is visible on the ground is changed, the base information is well defined - even if it is totally wrong:) And that applies everywhere in the world ... EVEN if some local authority try to dictate otherwise. Have You read about new old naming? An I mean not old like russian and new like ukrainian, I mean it regardless the language. If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all exUSSR countries and change every object name tag to whatever is mentioned on signs? If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and in my book that is not even up for discussion! If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong, and should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ... If there IS no sign, then it's obviously a matter for argument what is used, and it that case I'd prefer not to render anything since that is the case on the ground. Translated options for names can then be freely used for translated maps. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 02.08.2012 21:22, Frederik Ramm wrote: [..] We showed examples in forum, why it is not that simple to follow truth on the ground rule in ukraine. Here are some examples from me: Yes, it is not simple. The simplest solution would be to say that all names in the Crimea shold be in Russian, or all names should be in Ukrainian - the two extreme positions that led to the edit war. Do you have a better *compromise* solution, or are you arguing for one of the extreme positions? If you have a better *compromise* solution, get the buy in from all involved parties and DWG won't stand in your way when you execute it. I made my point of view pretty clear in forum: declare name tag as deprecated, like discussed here before. But I understand that it is not possible to this in short time. Therefore this DWG solution is acceptable for now. [...] Do I have now permission from DWG to go and change all name tags on streets that have belarusian signs? If there are any streets with Belarusian signs in the Crimea, then you're welcome to change them. No, I mean signs in Minks, Belarus! I do not want to change name tags to ukrainian language in Crimea for now, but it is not an acceptable solution from DWG we now have to respect. Given that the extreme solutions all names in Russian and all names in Ukrainian are not acceptable either, what would you suggest? Yes both this solutions are extreme, but ukrainian community decided for consistency to use ukrainian language in name tag - even mappers from other mostly russian speaking regions wanted it this way. Until one, two (three?) mappers from Crimea wanted only to *see* their city in russian language. Do they provided any other arguments? They did not provided any other possible solutions to this problem. Ukrainian community even offered them to make an proposal for Crimea region - none of them answered to this offer. Again, I will accept for now this decision, and none of mappers from ukrainian community, as far as I can see, changed any name tag to ukrainian again. Kind regards, iONiX ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 02.08.2012 21:38, Lester Caine wrote: [...] If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all exUSSR countries and change every object name tag to whatever is mentioned on signs? If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and in my book that is not even up for discussion! If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong, and should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ... If there IS no sign, then it's obviously a matter for argument what is used, and it that case I'd prefer not to render anything since that is the case on the ground. Translated options for names can then be freely used for translated maps. Ok, than I want to see, what community will be first to report me to DWG. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 08/02/2012 09:47 PM, iONiX wrote: On 02.08.2012 21:38, Lester Caine wrote: [...] If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all exUSSR countries and change every object name tag to whatever is mentioned on signs? If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and in my book that is not even up for discussion! If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong, and should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ... If there IS no sign, then it's obviously a matter for argument what is used, and it that case I'd prefer not to render anything since that is the case on the ground. Translated options for names can then be freely used for translated maps. Ok, than I want to see, what community will be first to report me to DWG. Are you the _local_ community in all those places? Don't think so. -- --- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 08/02/2012 09:47 PM, iONiX wrote: On 02.08.2012 21:38, Lester Caine wrote: [...] If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all exUSSR countries and change every object name tag to whatever is mentioned on signs? If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and in my book that is not even up for discussion! If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong, and should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ... If there IS no sign, then it's obviously a matter for argument what is used, and it that case I'd prefer not to render anything since that is the case on the ground. Translated options for names can then be freely used for translated maps. Ok, than I want to see, what community will be first to report me to DWG. Are you the _local_ community in all those places? Don't think so. -- --- m.v.g., Cartinus My name is Legion, for we are many. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 02.08.2012 23:10, Cartinus wrote: On 08/02/2012 09:47 PM, iONiX wrote: On 02.08.2012 21:38, Lester Caine wrote: [...] If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all exUSSR countries and change every object name tag to whatever is mentioned on signs? If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and in my book that is not even up for discussion! If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong, and should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ... If there IS no sign, then it's obviously a matter for argument what is used, and it that case I'd prefer not to render anything since that is the case on the ground. Translated options for names can then be freely used for translated maps. Ok, than I want to see, what community will be first to report me to DWG. Are you the _local_ community in all those places? Don't think so. So, truth on the ground rule applies only to mappers from local community? Other mappers have no right to apply this rule? If I saw those signs in a vacation trip, or I use other free sources, am I not allowed to change them? By the way, have You read DWG decision? Clearly no. [quote] It is not sufficient to execute some kind of proposal process and say you can participate in the vote if you want. We acknowledge that this is difficult, especially given the rather un-civil way in which some Crimea mappers have behaved in this discussion, but if they are not included in the solution then the problem cannot be resolved. [/quote] How community is defined? Are one person in some suburb or desert community? If so, he can establish any policies he want. And when he is not cooperative with rest of bigger community, than they have to accept his decision. Do I have be anywhere locally to be part of community? What if I tell You, I am living in Amsterdam? I find some more people, we decide to tag buildings with place_to_sleep in our suburb/town/region? How the rest of dutch community will react? I am trying to show that there are much bigger problem with name tag in many parts of the world, not only Ukraine! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
I read the whole mess on the mailinglists en de wiki. The point you are completely missing is that unless there is a conflict the local community can't resolve, the DWG won't get involved at all. If you had followed the whole thread, then you could have seen that e.g. The mappers in Brussels have decided on a solution that works for them. Other bi- or multilingual areas chose different solutions. Nobody (including the DWG) is forcing them to use a worldwide single approach. A single vandal from outside the area (as that is what you propose to do in the whole ex-USSR) messing around is something a local community can easily fix themselves. - One person, however isolated he is living, is never a community. You need more people for that. If a single city has a dedicated group of mappers, then that is a community. If there is only an active mapper in every fifth city in the country, then the local community is obviously bigger than one city. On 08/02/2012 11:40 PM, iONiX wrote: On 02.08.2012 23:10, Cartinus wrote: On 08/02/2012 09:47 PM, iONiX wrote: On 02.08.2012 21:38, Lester Caine wrote: [...] If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all exUSSR countries and change every object name tag to whatever is mentioned on signs? If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and in my book that is not even up for discussion! If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong, and should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ... If there IS no sign, then it's obviously a matter for argument what is used, and it that case I'd prefer not to render anything since that is the case on the ground. Translated options for names can then be freely used for translated maps. Ok, than I want to see, what community will be first to report me to DWG. Are you the _local_ community in all those places? Don't think so. So, truth on the ground rule applies only to mappers from local community? Other mappers have no right to apply this rule? If I saw those signs in a vacation trip, or I use other free sources, am I not allowed to change them? By the way, have You read DWG decision? Clearly no. [quote] It is not sufficient to execute some kind of proposal process and say you can participate in the vote if you want. We acknowledge that this is difficult, especially given the rather un-civil way in which some Crimea mappers have behaved in this discussion, but if they are not included in the solution then the problem cannot be resolved. [/quote] How community is defined? Are one person in some suburb or desert community? If so, he can establish any policies he want. And when he is not cooperative with rest of bigger community, than they have to accept his decision. Do I have be anywhere locally to be part of community? What if I tell You, I am living in Amsterdam? I find some more people, we decide to tag buildings with place_to_sleep in our suburb/town/region? How the rest of dutch community will react? I am trying to show that there are much bigger problem with name tag in many parts of the world, not only Ukraine! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- --- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 03.08.2012 0:22, Cartinus wrote: I read the whole mess on the mailinglists en de wiki. The point you are completely missing is that unless there is a conflict the local community can't resolve, the DWG won't get involved at all. If I will start making those changes, there will be a conflict. Or, if You still insists, that only local mappers are allowed to map particular area, not me but some local mapper. DWG will be involved again, and it will be really wrong to make another decision in another part of the world, because DWG would be not better than our politicians. If you had followed the whole thread, then you could have seen that e.g. The mappers in Brussels have decided on a solution that works for them. Other bi- or multilingual areas chose different solutions. Nobody (including the DWG) is forcing them to use a worldwide single approach. I don't have the feeling You have read everything I wrote. Ukrainian community had a solution. Even mappers from other russian speaking regions in east of Ukraine supported it. As this whole naming crap started, we had a discussion in ukrainian part of forum and offered russian speaking mappers from Crimea to support them in creating a proposal. None of them showed the will to make such one and to participate in further discussion. Instead someone of them reported ukrainian community as an aggressor to DWG. How can You find a solution involving all parties, if one part is not willing to discus? A single vandal from outside the area (as that is what you propose to do in the whole ex-USSR) messing around is something a local community can easily fix themselves. Can You explain me how? I can also use reverter plugin for JOSM ;-) At the end they will be forced to contact DWG. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Thu Aug 2 20:22:16 BST 2012 Frederik Ramm wrote: Yes, because as soon as you invent this status part, you will offend someone, no matter whether you choose the Ukrainian or the Russian version of the status part. This is the main misunderstanding here. We tried to explain it several times, but were always ignored by the guys who started to change everything back to Russian and unfortunately by DWG. Our initial changes of streets in Crimea to Ukrainian was driven by a simple technical decision, which is to have 'name' in Ukrainian, so the map will work as is in navigation software, name:en tags could be generated, and validators could be written. No politics, no 'pro-Ukrainian' or 'anti-Russian', although we are constantly being painted as such. Suddenly a newcomer approaches, and silently mass-renames many streets into Russian, loosing original Ukrainian renderings along the way, e.g. without copying them to name:uk. As we always do in such cases, he was contacted in private, and in parallel his actions were discussed in users: Ukraine forum. In three days he gave his 'go ahead' to revert his changes. I was the one who made the reverts. We thought it's over. Then couple weeks ago we occasionally found out that he silently reverted the reverts, and then after my following revert contacted DWG. After the first case we were openly encouraging him and anyone else from Crimea to step in and propose to change the rule, which they never even tried, only expressed heavy abuses in return. The main reasoning for our offer was that we cannot silently alter the guidelines on the Wiki without prior discussion. Many fellow users, including those closely involved in the discussions, were all OK with having Crimea all in Russian, and still are. We just did not want to create a precedence when a total newcomer (with 10 new objects on the map) can jump in and twist the whole thing as he wants (and the main arguments of the guy was that 'I want it to be in Russian since I speak Russian'). What made the whole thing bitter is that after all we found out that the initial user who started all of this and who wrote to DWG, actually is a permanent resident of Moscow, Russia, and as such is not local only to Crimea, but even to whole Ukraine. Nevertheless, we are willing to ignore this fact and address the problem. So, to make it straight. o We are fine with clear and simple rule to have 'name' tag in Crimea for street ways (to give proper definition, within a polygon defined by relation 72639), such as 'have Russian in name tag', or 'have 2 renderings in name tag'. This will make possible to continue the current pace of using software in processing and exporting territory of Ukraine. o The rule above cannot be applied to city and village names, since all of those are in Ukrainian everywhere. All place nodes already have 4 name tags. o The rule to have name in Ukrainian never stretched on usual objects such as POIs. E.g. we always wrote in 'name' whatever is actually on the advertisement for this amenity. There are names in Ukrainian, Russian and English in the country. So there is no need to enforce anything in this regard. o Our initial decision to have Ukrainian in name tag had nothing to do with politics or oppression of any human being. It is a purely technical decision, in the light that OSM is a Database, and not just a map. o Current DWG decision does not address the problem at all, since historically same object may (and does) have inconsistent naming on the ground. o Moreover, having unpredictable mix in 'name' will degrade quality of any navigational maps or geocoding. o Substantial part of Crimea was mapped in Ukrainian from the beginning, simply because people followed the established rule. We have several locals from Crimea in the forums who were surprised by the dispute, and who did the initial mapping. Nevertheless, it is OK to rename those to whatever be decided. Thus, I would like to request DWG to revisit their decision and whole dispute, and come up with something which is more transparent and easy to follow. Eugene ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Hi, On 25.07.2012 09:33, Frederik Ramm wrote: I'd like to hear the opinion of others in OpenStreetMap about the following situation that Data Working Group has been asked to mediate. Thanks everyone for voicing their opinion and making suggestions. The idea of abolishing name in the long run certainly sounds promising and would mean a lot less work for DWG ;) In the concrete case of the Crimea, we have come up with the resolution documented here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_working_group/Disputes#Crimea_Naming_Dispute Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Malcolm Herring skrev 2012-07-25 10:47: So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag. This sure is what is most helpfull for us travelers to any area, if the name: is what the sigh shows, not what the parlament think the sign should show. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Frederik Ramm wrote: So, my questions to you are I think there is a broad concensus 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? The raw name= tag shows what will be seen standing at the location. It would help if there was also a lang=xx so we know what IS being used! 2. The general question: What exactly is the local language in an area - can we come up with some rule of thumb that says if X% of people in an area of at least Y sq km use the language... or so? That is the lang=xx tag for a higher level area, but we probably need official_lang and local_lang :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Am 27.07.2012 10:02, schrieb Lester Caine: Frederik Ramm wrote: So, my questions to you are I think there is a broad concensus 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? The raw name= tag shows what will be seen standing at the location. It would help if there was also a lang=xx so we know what IS being used! Again: I'm against lang for that purpose. Examples: name=London lang=en name:de=London compared to: name=London name:en=London name:de=London Benefits: - There aren't more tags involved, - It's less error prone or better: it's equally error prone, but better to detect errors, as in the first alternative it's not possible to detect an error, if anyone only changes lang to any other language. - Backward-compatibility to name is identical - just use it. - Editor software could support it by enforcing users to add a language for the name-attribute. regards Peter P.S.: I know that this does not solve the variants where more than one name is set to the name tag now, but I would leave that to other tags - e.g. name:format=ru - cr - en (de) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Again: I'm against lang for that purpose. Examples: name=London lang=en name:de=London compared to: name=London name:en=London name:de=London As far as I understand, this is not what is being proposed, but name=London (or to be auto-generated from info below) name:en=London name:es=Londra name:fr=Londres lang=en M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: That is the lang=xx tag for a higher level area, but we probably need official_lang and local_lang :) I don't think this is a good idea. One tag that treats all the languages the same is best. Usually, when the use of the minority language is regulated by some law in a particular administrative are, it becomes the _offical_ language and is treated exactly the same os the majority language. So there is no distinction between them, they are both (or 3 or 4) _official_ in that particular area. This scheme of 'official' vs. 'local' is confusing and would still leave the door open to edit wars etc. M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Miloš Komarčević wrote: wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Again: I'm against lang for that purpose. Examples: name=London lang=en name:de=London compared to: name=London name:en=London name:de=London As far as I understand, this is not what is being proposed, but name=London (or to be auto-generated from info below) name:en=London name:es=Londra name:fr=Londres lang=en Exactly ... so that translations have a clean set of name:xxx direct from the tag without having to work out if the unidentified name is in some particular language, or it may be a combination of two anyway ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 07/27/2012 04:56 AM, Tirkon wrote: Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: With names it can be compacted as Avenue John Doe laan For me as a non native dutch/french this looks obfuscating. Is this the way you find it on the streetname-signs or only in OSM? For non native users of the map I would prefer to find the name tag in OSM exactly as on the signs. Because i.e. a foreign Chinese or Russian cannot read latin letters he only has the chance to compare the two pictures from the map and the signs. And if the naming is shortened he can only see different pictures. http://www.google.nl/search?num=10hl=nlsite=imghptbm=ischsource=hpbiw=1232bih=944q=avenue+laanoq=avenue+laangs_l=img.3...2658.5105.0.6125.11.8.0.3.3.0.108.778.4j4.8.0...0.0...1ac.atAQp71k9x4#hl=nlsite=imghptbm=ischsa=1q=avenue+laan+street+signoq=avenue+laan+street+signgs_l=img.3...15183.22538.0.23226.12.12.0.0.0.0.85.875.12.12.0...0.0...1c.B9T3c9pCRespbx=1bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osbfp=c1d7c2c14d54ab18biw=1232bih=944 -- --- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Friday 27 July 2012 04:56:43 Tirkon wrote: Rue de Quelque Chose Iets straat With names it can be compacted as Avenue John Doe laan For me as a non native dutch/french this looks obfuscating. Is this the way you find it on the streetname-signs or only in OSM? No, those are street signs (also, not all street signs will put them like that either). In OSM it's either name=Avenue John Doe - John Doelaan or the other way around. I mapped the street names in Sint-Genesius-Rode - Rhode-Saint-Genèse. I heard people nearly only speaking french there and was not aware of the heavy language dispute at that time. Thus I took the direction french - dutch. (As well I filled in the name.fr and name:nl tag.) Then a man living nearby told me that the belgium OSM community had decided to write first the upper and then the lower sign into the name tag. Thus he changed everything to dutch-french, which is the order from the signs. After that other people changed some street back to french-dutch. Since them I decided not to map there any more. ;-) I do not want to be part of the dispute. Officially that municipality is Flemish, so Dutch-speaking, but has facilities for French. So according to the rules it should be Dutch - French. But yes, this creates some cases where the majority of the population is native in the other language... Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Locally we have English and French. Unfortunately on one local street has the following physical signs on it Prestone, Prestone Drive, Prom Prestone Dr depending which sign you look at. Personally I prefer the name:en etc it makes it easier to electronically search for the name. Having to know that to find the road you have to enter Prom Prestone Dr or Promenade Prestone Drive makes it much more difficult for people to use the map. Cheerio John On 27 July 2012 10:06, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 27 July 2012 04:56:43 Tirkon wrote: Rue de Quelque Chose Iets straat With names it can be compacted as Avenue John Doe laan For me as a non native dutch/french this looks obfuscating. Is this the way you find it on the streetname-signs or only in OSM? No, those are street signs (also, not all street signs will put them like that either). In OSM it's either name=Avenue John Doe - John Doelaan or the other way around. I mapped the street names in Sint-Genesius-Rode - Rhode-Saint-Genèse. I heard people nearly only speaking french there and was not aware of the heavy language dispute at that time. Thus I took the direction french - dutch. (As well I filled in the name.fr and name:nl tag.) Then a man living nearby told me that the belgium OSM community had decided to write first the upper and then the lower sign into the name tag. Thus he changed everything to dutch-french, which is the order from the signs. After that other people changed some street back to french-dutch. Since them I decided not to map there any more. ;-) I do not want to be part of the dispute. Officially that municipality is Flemish, so Dutch-speaking, but has facilities for French. So according to the rules it should be Dutch - French. But yes, this creates some cases where the majority of the population is native in the other language... Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Am 27.07.2012 17:46, schrieb john whelan: Locally we have English and French. Unfortunately on one local street has the following physical signs on it Prestone, Prestone Drive, Prom Prestone Dr depending which sign you look at. Personally I prefer the name:en etc it makes it easier to electronically search for the name. Having to know that to find the road you have to enter Prom Prestone Dr or Promenade Prestone Drive makes it much more difficult for people to use the map. But as long as the name:en etc are given additionally to name that shouldn't matter, as that should be found, too. Else I would consider that a bug in the search routine/software. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? In Belgium there is a heavy language dispute between frensh speaking Wallonia and dutch speaking Flanders. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_legislation_in_Belgium I had contact with the local Belgium OSM community during mapping in bilingual regions. The community told me they agreed, to take the names from the streetname-sign. If this signs mention both the dutch and the french name they take the same order in the name tag of this streets. The mentioned languages and their order on the streetname-signs are the model for every name tag in that town. If i.e. the order is dutch-french then the name of the town, the station etc. takes the same order. example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.79738lon=4.37421zoom=15layers=M I do not know whether this model fits for your problem. Regards Tirkon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
2012/7/26 Tirkon tirko...@yahoo.de Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? In Belgium there is a heavy language dispute between frensh speaking Wallonia and dutch speaking Flanders. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_legislation_in_Belgium I had contact with the local Belgium OSM community during mapping in bilingual regions. The community told me they agreed, to take the names from the streetname-sign. If this signs mention both the dutch and the french name they take the same order in the name tag of this streets. The mentioned languages and their order on the streetname-signs are the model for every name tag in that town. If i.e. the order is dutch-french then the name of the town, the station etc. takes the same order. example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.79738lon=4.37421zoom=15layers=M I do not know whether this model fits for your problem. The language dispute is largely settled by now, you know. The way it is settled is a compromise, of course (as always in this country). On one side of a street you may find one order, on the other side the reverse order. It even goes as far that the order of languages in announcements on trains is alternated while the train is traveling through bilingual parts of the country. For stations there are signs with one order and others (in between?) with the reverse order. Anyway, as far as OSM goes, it's the first mapper who maps something who decides on which order is being used. For street names I wouldn't mind French - Dutch consistently as French uses Noun/Adjective whereas we use Adjective/Noun in Dutch (like in English, but we write Parkstraat in one word, like in German...) Anyway, just to say that that particular issue is mostly solved in Belgium. I think the solution with a lang tag (for each element) to indicate how to give a standard (order of) language(s) is the best we can do. Having the example map on openstreetmap.org adapt to the user's language preferences in the browser seems a bit hard, as it would mean several tiles would need to be rendered for each possible combination of languages/transliterations. Polyglot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Thursday 26 July 2012 11:48:39 Jo wrote: Anyway, as far as OSM goes, it's the first mapper who maps something who decides on which order is being used. Slightly more difficult: It's true that the first mapper decides for the region of Brussels-capital, which is bilingual. But in the municipilaties with facilities (to you foreigners: municipalities not belonging to Brussels and which thus have only one official language, but offer facilities in the other language, for example in schools and courts), the official language always comes first. For street names I wouldn't mind French - Dutch consistently as French uses Noun/Adjective whereas we use Adjective/Noun in Dutch (like in English, but we write Parkstraat in one word, like in German...) That's what you often see in Brussels btw, like: Rue de Quelque Chose Iets straat With names it can be compacted as Avenue John Doe laan a few examples: static.skynetblogs.be/media/135561/2636563073.jpg Anyway, it's a minefield but it looks like we've solved it well in osm. In the past years there has been the odd user changing the orders of names (which is considered vandalism), but it's very rare. Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday 26 July 2012 11:48:39 Jo wrote: Anyway, as far as OSM goes, it's the first mapper who maps something who decides on which order is being used. Slightly more difficult: It's true that the first mapper decides for the region of Brussels-capital, which is bilingual. But in the municipilaties with facilities (to you foreigners: municipalities not belonging to Brussels and which thus have only one official language, but offer facilities in the other language, for example in schools and courts), the official language always comes first. For street names I wouldn't mind French - Dutch consistently as French uses Noun/Adjective whereas we use Adjective/Noun in Dutch (like in English, but we write Parkstraat in one word, like in German...) That's what you often see in Brussels btw, like: Rue de Quelque Chose Iets straat With names it can be compacted as Avenue John Doe laan For me as a non native dutch/french this looks obfuscating. Is this the way you find it on the streetname-signs or only in OSM? For non native users of the map I would prefer to find the name tag in OSM exactly as on the signs. Because i.e. a foreign Chinese or Russian cannot read latin letters he only has the chance to compare the two pictures from the map and the signs. And if the naming is shortened he can only see different pictures. Anyway, it's a minefield but it looks like we've solved it well in osm. In the past years there has been the odd user changing the orders of names (which is considered vandalism), but it's very rare. I mapped the street names in Sint-Genesius-Rode - Rhode-Saint-Genèse. I heard people nearly only speaking french there and was not aware of the heavy language dispute at that time. Thus I took the direction french - dutch. (As well I filled in the name.fr and name:nl tag.) Then a man living nearby told me that the belgium OSM community had decided to write first the upper and then the lower sign into the name tag. Thus he changed everything to dutch-french, which is the order from the signs. After that other people changed some street back to french-dutch. Since them I decided not to map there any more. ;-) I do not want to be part of the dispute. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.74799lon=4.36197zoom=15layers=M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
(Skipping all this, because obviously you are not that well informed about how this situation with Ukraine came into being) So, my questions to you are 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? Oficial language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Even Russia doesn't dispute that. So, *in my opinion*, no. 2. The general question: What exactly is the local language in an area - can we come up with some rule of thumb that says if X% of people in an area of at least Y sq km use the language... or so? I think it always have been local *official* language. As always, for other languages, including Russian, there is name:ru=* tag. Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 07/25/2012 09:42 AM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: Oficial language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Even Russia doesn't dispute that. So,*in my opinion*, no. In my opinion, if there are multiple languages and there is a dispute, the language on the sign should be the guiding principle. If we look where I live (Norway), we have multiple official languages. Some municipalities have 4 official languages, in that case, the fist name on the sign should be in the name tag. You also have nat_name, and loc_name that can be used. eg. name= whats on the sign nat_name=the nations official name name:code=language name. So this sign: http://www.sprakrad.no/upload/11207/porsanger.jpg name=Porsanger kommune name:no=Porsanger kommune name:kvensk=Porsangin komuuni name:si=Porsanggu gielda PS: do not know how to get the non-ASCII char in the picture... And I do not know the langcode for kvensk. One reason for having the sign name as name=, is that the ones that really needs a map, aren't local people, but travelers, and they need to be able to look on the map and the signs. In other cases names can be more diffrent than ? ? and ? ??. So as a potential tourist to Ukraine Use the signed name... -- Mike Menk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
T , 2012-07-25 10:08 +0200, Michael Eric Menk rakstīja: On 07/25/2012 09:42 AM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: Oficial language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Even Russia doesn't dispute that. So, *in my opinion*, no. In my opinion, if there are multiple languages and there is a dispute, the language on the sign should be the guiding principle. If we look where I live (Norway), we have multiple official languages. But in Ukraine there is one :) Some municipalities have 4 official languages, in that case, the fist name on the sign should be in the name tag. I don't dispute that, but this is different case. There is one official language, then there is artificially created huge minority of Russians (and in some regions majority) during Soviet times, which is reason why we have this dispute here. However, I don't want to dictate what Ukrainian community should do. It's their own decision. I have other question though - maybe we should nuke name=* generic usage (or leave it for English) and stick with name:lang=*? It is very hard to detect what language is used in name=* as you should use outside prererences, etc. Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Peteris Krisjanis wrote: (Skipping all this, because obviously you are not that well informed about how this situation with Ukraine came into being) Actually I don't think it is particularly relevant in any of these disputes, the thing is simply that OSM is fundamentally 'English' and this is the problem? Personally when I look at a map I prefer 'English' names, and so I would anticipate that someone would be helpful and provide an :en translation ... which would probably start another dispute ... but the point here is that what ever is done is wrong. The starting point is the tagging, and every name entered should have the :lang extension, even English ones, so that when raw data is accessed a number of options are available. The applications reading the data then display the preferred language of the user. Of cause what do we default to is the crux of the problem here, but having a CHOICE would get over many of the disputes? Rendering to a single map is never going to be ideal, and the 'map what is on the ground' rule should ALWAYS take priority. It's not use printing a map with welsh on it if the road signs only show English. So from my point of view if a print an 'untranslated' map I would expect to be able to find the roads if I could read the signs? Providing a translated map is exactly what the dual map approach was set up for but has to be done on a regional rather than world basis? So ... TAG every language (please ;) ) but keep the main osm map following the 'map what is on the ground' rule ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Peteris, On 07/25/2012 09:42 AM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: (Skipping all this, because obviously you are not that well informed about how this situation with Ukraine came into being) I am trying to get a good picture of the situation, without being dragged into an ethnic conflict that seems to be the very reason why the Ukrainian community cannot solve this problem themselves. I have looked at the history of objects in OSM and if you believe that the key facts I mentioned (objects usually created in Russian, then renamed to Ukrainian a few months ago) are wrong then feel free to show us examples. 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? Oficial language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Even Russia doesn't dispute that. So, *in my opinion*, no. Russia, as a country, isn't involved. We are talking about Ukrainian citizens here who live in Ukraine and who prefer to use the Russian language. 2. The general question: What exactly is the local language in an area - can we come up with some rule of thumb that says if X% of people in an area of at least Y sq km use the language... or so? I think it always have been local *official* language. This certainly is a valid line of argument; however even the Ukrainian government seems to see the problem and now allows regional governments to define additional official languages: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/world/europe/ukraine-parliament-adopts-russian-language-bill.html I don't know if whatever regional government is responsible for the Crimea has already made use of these powers but there's no doubt that they will, is there? Which will lead to the Russian language having official status in the Crimea, and certainly with two official languages, we'd choose that which is used on the ground for the name tag, right? This also demonstrates a weakness of the official language argument: It seems to be arbitrary. The law I quoted seems to have been passed with a slim majority, and it paves the way for Russian to be an official language in the Crimea. But the article says there are many Ukrainians who don't like that, so it is quite possible that the next government strikes down the law again, so Russian won't be an official language in the Crimea any more, and so on - do we really think it is good to change the name tags in the Crimea with every successive Ukrainian government just because the political whim of the day is for or against giving Russian official status? The people on the ground don't change, it's the same people in the same houses in the same streets, just a different government 800km away in Kiev... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
1. No, in this case Russian name should be in name:ru only. Since the official language is Ukrainian this should be used. 2. The area should not be limited by sq km but by independent administrative body (country or its autonomous part). If there is official language, this should be used, if there is not one the most common should be it. Generally only name:language keys should be used in my opinion. It does not cause editing wars - this issue is moved to rendering, which is far easier to control. Even in undisputed areas there is added information about the language... LM_1 2012/7/25 Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com: (Skipping all this, because obviously you are not that well informed about how this situation with Ukraine came into being) So, my questions to you are 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? Oficial language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Even Russia doesn't dispute that. So, *in my opinion*, no. 2. The general question: What exactly is the local language in an area - can we come up with some rule of thumb that says if X% of people in an area of at least Y sq km use the language... or so? I think it always have been local *official* language. As always, for other languages, including Russian, there is name:ru=* tag. Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Hi, On 07/25/2012 10:25 AM, Lester Caine wrote: Personally when I look at a map I prefer 'English' names, and so I would anticipate that someone would be helpful and provide an :en translation ... Actually the Ukrainian community is providing a (automatically generated, I believe) English transliteration in the name:en tag for many objects so if you go to open.mapquest.com which prefers English names you should be fine ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 11:23 +0300, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I have other question though - maybe we should nuke name=* generic usage (or leave it for English) and stick with name:lang=*? It is very hard to detect what language is used in name=* as you should use outside prererences, etc. +1 from me.. but, how would the renderer know what name:* to use then? Country level is not even enough as for example here (.fi) we have some regions that should use the swedish name. -- Kaj-Michael Lang mil...@tal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I have other question though - maybe we should nuke name=* generic usage (or leave it for English) and stick with name:lang=*? It is very hard to detect what language is used in name=* as you should use outside prererences, etc. That was the bit that was not quite so clear on my post ;) BUT we do still need some flag which indicate what language is used on the sign we are looking at!!! I would not be so blinkered to insist that the main map is 'English' - this should always be 'on the ground', but an 'English' layer would be nice :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Our principal product is a street map. A street map is used to navigate in unfamiliar places. The names on the map must correspond with names on a street signs, signposts, etc. so that strangers may verify their position. So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Frederik Ramm wrote: Personally when I look at a map I prefer 'English' names, and so I would anticipate that someone would be helpful and provide an :en translation ... Actually the Ukrainian community is providing a (automatically generated, I believe) English transliteration in the name:en tag for many objects so if you go to open.mapquest.com which prefers English names you should be fine ;) But I would still need to know what was on the signs as well if I went there :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Our principal product is a street map. A street map is used to navigate in unfamiliar places. The names on the map must correspond with names on a street signs, signposts, etc. so that strangers may verify their position. So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Malcolm Herring wrote: Our principal product is a street map. A street map is used to navigate in unfamiliar places. The names on the map must correspond with names on a street signs, signposts, etc. so that strangers may verify their position. So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag. Nicely put ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
WHAT OpenStreetMap is not mainly a database, the project produce a rendered map that should be used and usable for real ??? It's not only meant for contributors to show their edits ? ;-) On 25 juil. 2012, at 10:50, Malcolm Herring wrote: Our principal product is a street map. A street map is used to navigate in unfamiliar places. The names on the map must correspond with names on a street signs, signposts, etc. so that strangers may verify their position. So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 25/07/12 09:50, Malcolm Herring wrote: Our principal product is a street map. A street map is used to navigate in unfamiliar places. The names on the map must correspond with names on a street signs, signposts, etc. so that strangers may verify their position. Actually our principle product is open geodata, not a rendered map. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 25/07/2012 10:21, Tom Hughes wrote: Actually our principle product is open geodata, not a rendered map. Point taken, but it does not alter my argument that the data in the database should correspond to the world as it is, not the world that we may prefer it to be. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
There has been recently a similar discussion in the Italian OSM talk list. Basically the outcome - I hope I am summing up correctly - is that the name tags in Italy should contain the official names, which in Italy's bi- or sometimes multi-lingual areas appear in several languages on the official road signs. So the road sign says Bolzano-Bozen, hence the name tag is name=Bolzano/Bozen. In addition there will be name tags name:de=Bozen name:it=Bolzano. In the discussion some contributors pointed to the different approach in Switzerland. In Switzerland there is only one official name and that is the name in the local language. So it would be name=Genève, name:de=Genf, name:it=Ginevra The legal bases in Italy and in Switzerland are different but clear, and the road signs in both countries reflect the different legal approaches accurately. If the road signs in the Crimea reflect the legal situation correctly then the mappers should take what they see on the road signs, plus whatever name:xx tags are useful. If however the road signs (which are important for the users of the map) do not reflect the legal situation, than you have a conflict. (In that case I would tend to put in the name tag in OSM what is on the road signs, giving priority to the map users' interest, but this is my personal opinion) Volker Padova, Italy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Hi, We had similar discussions in Serbia as well, since we need to support two writing systems at the same time (Cyrillic and Latin), and any official ethnic minority languages in areas where they are used. On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: Basically the outcome - I hope I am summing up correctly - is that the name tags in Italy should contain the official names, which in Italy's bi- or sometimes multi-lingual areas appear in several languages on the official road signs. So the road sign says Bolzano-Bozen, hence the name tag is name=Bolzano/Bozen. In addition there will be name tags name:de=Bozen name:it=Bolzano. While this might reflect signs on the ground, it's bad from data structure point of view because there is no clue to what languages are stored in name= and how to process them if necessary (e.g. automatic transliteration). In the discussion some contributors pointed to the different approach in Switzerland. In Switzerland there is only one official name and that is the name in the local language. So it would be name=Genève, name:de=Genf, name:it=Ginevra Again, you don't know what language is stored in name=, but at least in this case adding also a name:fr would improve the situation. Which brings us back to the point Peteris Krisjanis made: name= without the context of a language is somewhat useless from the database point of view, apart from quick and dirty rendering of what is on the ground. A much better approach would be to dispose of it, and force having name:lang everywhere. Then one would be able to define e.g. on the administrative level (country, district, municipality) what languages to use/render on objects inside that relation. For example: for the whole of Italy relation you would have lang=it, but for the South Tyrol you would have lang=de;it (or whatever order is appropriate) which would take precedence. For any exceptions, you would add lang= on the object itself which would have highest priority... M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 25/07/12 12:39, Volker Schmidt wrote: There has been recently a similar discussion in the Italian OSM talk list. Basically the outcome - I hope I am summing up correctly - is that the name tags in Italy should contain the official names, which in Italy's bi- or sometimes multi-lingual areas appear in several languages on the official road signs. So the road sign says Bolzano-Bozen, hence the name tag is name=Bolzano/Bozen. In addition there will be name tags name:de=Bozen name:it=Bolzano. In the discussion some contributors pointed to the different approach in Switzerland. In Switzerland there is only one official name and that is the name in the local language. So it would be name=Genève, name:de=Genf, name:it=Ginevra The legal bases in Italy and in Switzerland are different but clear, and the road signs in both countries reflect the different legal approaches accurately. If the road signs in the Crimea reflect the legal situation correctly then the mappers should take what they see on the road signs, plus whatever name:xx tags are useful. If however the road signs (which are important for the users of the map) do not reflect the legal situation, than you have a conflict. (In that case I would tend to put in the name tag in OSM what is on the road signs, giving priority to the map users' interest, but this is my personal opinion) I also prefer the name that is on the sign, but we should think about always adding the name with its language tag, too, otherwise it is not clear which language is used and you have to get this information from some other source. I see your point in calling ukrainian the only official language but I have to say that for hundreds of years now politics might change borders and languages but as long as the citizen are not forced to leave, it does not change them. Regarding Switzerland, there is one language missing and I thought I have seen multi-lingual sign there, too, especially in the south-east with Rhaeto-Romance as one language. Just my 2ct Colliar -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREIAAYFAlAP7WEACgkQalWTFLzqsCvBGwCgxCN2zxFBbIoBTuJInGGD1DtI PIQAn1hc5pPd5OScyjE+pIL/IGXzrMti =IaSg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
2012/7/25 Miloš Komarčević kmi...@gmail.com: Hi, We had similar discussions in Serbia as well, since we need to support two writing systems at the same time (Cyrillic and Latin), and any official ethnic minority languages in areas where they are used. On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: Basically the outcome - I hope I am summing up correctly - is that the name tags in Italy should contain the official names, which in Italy's bi- or sometimes multi-lingual areas appear in several languages on the official road signs. So the road sign says Bolzano-Bozen, hence the name tag is name=Bolzano/Bozen. In addition there will be name tags name:de=Bozen name:it=Bolzano. While this might reflect signs on the ground, it's bad from data structure point of view because there is no clue to what languages are stored in name= and how to process them if necessary (e.g. automatic transliteration). In the discussion some contributors pointed to the different approach in Switzerland. In Switzerland there is only one official name and that is the name in the local language. So it would be name=Genève, name:de=Genf, name:it=Ginevra Again, you don't know what language is stored in name=, but at least in this case adding also a name:fr would improve the situation. Which brings us back to the point Peteris Krisjanis made: name= without the context of a language is somewhat useless from the database point of view, apart from quick and dirty rendering of what is on the ground. A much better approach would be to dispose of it, and force having name:lang everywhere. Then one would be able to define e.g. on the administrative level (country, district, municipality) what languages to use/render on objects inside that relation. For example: for the whole of Italy relation you would have lang=it, but for the South Tyrol you would have lang=de;it (or whatever order is appropriate) which would take precedence. For any exceptions, you would add lang= on the object itself which would have highest priority... M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk I agree LM_1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Am 25.07.2012 14:54, schrieb Miloš Komarčević: Which brings us back to the point Peteris Krisjanis made: name= without the context of a language is somewhat useless from the database point of view, apart from quick and dirty rendering of what is on the ground. +1 But it is useful for quick and dirty usage like give me any name - and there it's much better than to use the first name-tag found (hooray, everywhere in the world we get Albanian names on the maps!) or something like that. A much better approach would be to dispose of it, and force having name:lang everywhere. I would not like to dispose name, but enforce (but not hardly require) to add name:de even in single-language parts of Germany and so on. Done completely that would lead to name=* everywhere in any language that seems to be useful for the user tagging it (doesn't prevent the disputes of course, but neither does a mapper-defined lang-attribute). name:*=* everywhere as much as needed, but enforced to be once for the language used in name. This can be used to determine the language of name by comparison, while some times more than one language might match. Therefore it's redundant, but matches the requirements fulfilled by the lang-tag implicitely. Then one would be able to define e.g. on the administrative level (country, district, municipality) what languages to use/render on objects inside that relation. For example: for the whole of Italy relation you would have lang=it, but for the South Tyrol you would have lang=de;it (or whatever order is appropriate) which would take precedence. For any exceptions, you would add lang= on the object itself which would have highest priority... -1 I oppose to have rendering rules in the data like suggested here, but again the implicit language definition as described above may be used here, too - even if probably not in the main maps renderer, but that's a completely different thing. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
colliar wrote: I also prefer the name that is on the sign, but we should think about always adding the name with its language tag, too, otherwise it is not clear which language is used and you have to get this information from some other source. I'm coming to a point where I might suggest that 'name' is ONLY populated with a language code or codes? Text is stored in name:xx and hopefully over time every language can be supported (or created via google), but the version as displayed on a sign is the current language of the sign, so what one will see on the ground. In the case of multi-lingual signs, xx/yy/zz in the order they appear on the sign ( is that welsh/english or english/welsh ) 'Known as' text can also obviously be added, but to be honest if it's not displayed on a sign SHOULD it be? We are then getting into the area that does not fullfill the 'on the ground rule' ... but may well be appropriate when changes have taken place over time. ( At what point does 'historic' information get removed from the main map rendering or database ) Rendering of the main OSM would use the name selection, while translated versions would simply follow their own rules for selection, but I could make a case for two overlays on the main map, one in english? With links to tile sets in other languages? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Jo wrote: Sorry, don't know anything in Wales... Neither do I - I just live near by ... The point I'm trying to make is that the separator might also be important. In Brussels the choice has been made for - . White space always gets a little tricky, but 'displaying' a list of names is a rendering problem, so mapping xx^yy ( or what ever ) to name:xx - name:yy would be conversion problem anyway, and may involve RTL conversion as well ... what does one do with a pair of names with reverse directions? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 2012-07-25 at 13:54:28 +0100, Miloš Komarčević wrote: name= without the context of a language is somewhat useless from the database point of view, apart from quick and dirty rendering of what is on the ground. it is a single usecase, but it is one that is very useful, and in a significant number of cases it is probably enough. In the cases where there is only a name for a feature, and said name is in the official language for the country, using just name is simpler and unambigous. I wouldn't go below the country-level however: having e.g. different defaults in Italy except South Tyrol, South Tyrol except for a couple of municipalities, and said municipalities would just be a mess. In the areas where there are more than one language, instead of just disposing of it I believe it is better to use it for whatever name (or names) can be found on the signs on the ground, since that is probably what somebody who is doing a quick and dirty render/router needs, and then sort-of-mandatory name:lang tags can cover all of the other uses. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Lester Caine wrote:
colliar wrote:
I also prefer the name that is on the sign, but we should think about
always
adding the name with its language tag, too, otherwise it is not clear
which
language is used and you have to get this information from some other
source.
I'm coming to a point where I might suggest that 'name' is ONLY
populated with a language code or codes?
This is actually pretty good idea, but...
If we start replacing the content of the name only by language
reference, we will most definitely break a lot of apps.
Taking the best of this and previous ideas, I would propose this:
*** Data producers ***
1) Deprecate bare tags name, official_name etc. (bare = without ':lang'
suffix).
2) Embrace the usage of language specific tags like 'name:en',
'name:de', ...
3) Introduce new tag 'lang', which should contain a pointer to the
locally used language. (For multilingual areas, we could use something
like lang=de / it.)
*** Data consumers ***
How to get name, official_name, etc. in default local format?
- Is there lang tag?
YES: Take its value and replace lang codes by the values of language
specific tags.
NO: Fallback to the tag value withou language suffix.
Examples:
{name=Praha, name:en=Prague}
=name=Praha
{name:de=Bozen, name:it=Bolzano, lang=it - de}
=name=Bolzano - Bozen
---
There are few things I really like about this solution:
1) You can apply the same logic to all language specific tags, not only
'name'.
2) There is no BC break.
3) No data duplication in the main database.
4) You are free to specify locally used multilingual format, so the
result of the algorithm above would satisfy on the ground rule.
5) I could imagine this algorithm implemented in osm2pgsql, it could
automatically expand this to the appropriate general tags on import
time, thus all its users would not have to change a thing in their code.
So, what do you think?
Best regards,
Petr Morávek aka Xificurk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote:
Lester Caine wrote:
colliar wrote:
I also prefer the name that is on the sign, but we should think about
always
adding the name with its language tag, too, otherwise it is not clear
which
language is used and you have to get this information from some other
source.
I'm coming to a point where I might suggest that 'name' is ONLY
populated with a language code or codes?
This is actually pretty good idea, but...
If we start replacing the content of the name only by language
reference, we will most definitely break a lot of apps.
Taking the best of this and previous ideas, I would propose this:
*** Data producers ***
1) Deprecate bare tags name, official_name etc. (bare = without ':lang'
suffix).
2) Embrace the usage of language specific tags like 'name:en',
'name:de', ...
3) Introduce new tag 'lang', which should contain a pointer to the
locally used language. (For multilingual areas, we could use something
like lang=de / it.)
*** Data consumers ***
How to get name, official_name, etc. in default local format?
- Is there lang tag?
YES: Take its value and replace lang codes by the values of language
specific tags.
NO: Fallback to the tag value withou language suffix.
Examples:
{name=Praha, name:en=Prague}
=name=Praha
{name:de=Bozen, name:it=Bolzano, lang=it - de}
=name=Bolzano - Bozen
---
There are few things I really like about this solution:
1) You can apply the same logic to all language specific tags, not only
'name'.
2) There is no BC break.
3) No data duplication in the main database.
4) You are free to specify locally used multilingual format, so the
result of the algorithm above would satisfy on the ground rule.
5) I could imagine this algorithm implemented in osm2pgsql, it could
automatically expand this to the appropriate general tags on import
time, thus all its users would not have to change a thing in their code.
So, what do you think?
Actually 'lang' could be populated from a higher level area setting initially?
This sidesteps a number of problems in implementation, my only comment would be
as I indicated. lang=it - de or de / it needs to be a single identifiable
character. Formatting should be language specific when building a 'text=
string, and that could be populated in a language specific way for the users
preference anyway?
--
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
I was thinking about roughly the same idea except the process is a bit
different. There could be an alternate usage through references.
Something like [de] in the name tag could indicate a reference to
name:de. A semicolon in the name tag could be used to indicate the order
of languages to display or backups in case the name:* in the front of
the line don't exist.
- Svavar Kjarrval
On 25/07/12 15:21, Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote:
Lester Caine wrote:
colliar wrote:
I also prefer the name that is on the sign, but we should think about
always
adding the name with its language tag, too, otherwise it is not clear
which
language is used and you have to get this information from some other
source.
I'm coming to a point where I might suggest that 'name' is ONLY
populated with a language code or codes?
This is actually pretty good idea, but...
If we start replacing the content of the name only by language
reference, we will most definitely break a lot of apps.
Taking the best of this and previous ideas, I would propose this:
*** Data producers ***
1) Deprecate bare tags name, official_name etc. (bare = without ':lang'
suffix).
2) Embrace the usage of language specific tags like 'name:en',
'name:de', ...
3) Introduce new tag 'lang', which should contain a pointer to the
locally used language. (For multilingual areas, we could use something
like lang=de / it.)
*** Data consumers ***
How to get name, official_name, etc. in default local format?
- Is there lang tag?
YES: Take its value and replace lang codes by the values of language
specific tags.
NO: Fallback to the tag value withou language suffix.
Examples:
{name=Praha, name:en=Prague}
=name=Praha
{name:de=Bozen, name:it=Bolzano, lang=it - de}
=name=Bolzano - Bozen
---
There are few things I really like about this solution:
1) You can apply the same logic to all language specific tags, not only
'name'.
2) There is no BC break.
3) No data duplication in the main database.
4) You are free to specify locally used multilingual format, so the
result of the algorithm above would satisfy on the ground rule.
5) I could imagine this algorithm implemented in osm2pgsql, it could
automatically expand this to the appropriate general tags on import
time, thus all its users would not have to change a thing in their code.
So, what do you think?
Best regards,
Petr Morávek aka Xificurk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
In my opinion sorting languages for rendering is the renderer's problem, one can assume that name= tags in countries with a single language is the national language, but for a renderer to understand this, poligons with lang=* or similar must exist (either within OSM or in a separate database) It will be much more logic to store every name in name:xx tags, and let renderers sort out how to deal with them. Renderers must thus have fallback rules in places where several language name tags exists, but again, this is the renderers problem. Now, to allow completely I18N compability in the maps, one would need every version of names to be available, either in name:xx tags within OSM, or in a separate database for name translation. This way, OSM could be completely neutral to naming disputes (as no 'default' name would exist in our database), leaving renderers resolving the various problems. I would love to see our 'default' map layer to show names based on browser language settings (i.e. Moscow would show as Moskva on my map, and my home town show up in Cyrlic in the browser of anyone from Moscov) I understand that it might be a long and complicated task cleaning this up, as 'the entire world' is tagged with name= and only a few regions and places have aditional name:xx Aun Y. Johnsen Sent from my iPad ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Petr Morávek [Xificurk]
xific...@gmail.com wrote:
Taking the best of this and previous ideas, I would propose this:
*** Data producers ***
1) Deprecate bare tags name, official_name etc. (bare = without ':lang'
suffix).
2) Embrace the usage of language specific tags like 'name:en',
'name:de', ...
3) Introduce new tag 'lang', which should contain a pointer to the
locally used language. (For multilingual areas, we could use something
like lang=de / it.)
*** Data consumers ***
How to get name, official_name, etc. in default local format?
- Is there lang tag?
YES: Take its value and replace lang codes by the values of language
specific tags.
NO: Fallback to the tag value withou language suffix.
Examples:
{name=Praha, name:en=Prague}
=name=Praha
{name:de=Bozen, name:it=Bolzano, lang=it - de}
=name=Bolzano - Bozen
---
There are few things I really like about this solution:
1) You can apply the same logic to all language specific tags, not only
'name'.
2) There is no BC break.
3) No data duplication in the main database.
4) You are free to specify locally used multilingual format, so the
result of the algorithm above would satisfy on the ground rule.
5) I could imagine this algorithm implemented in osm2pgsql, it could
automatically expand this to the appropriate general tags on import
time, thus all its users would not have to change a thing in their code.
So, what do you think?
+1
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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Svavar Kjarrval wrote: I was thinking about roughly the same idea except the process is a bit different. There could be an alternate usage through references. Something like [de] in the name tag could indicate a reference to name:de. A semicolon in the name tag could be used to indicate the order of languages to display or backups in case the name:* in the front of the line don't exist. The use of ':' in a key is well establish as flagging a language specific version, so one would not touch that. The 'name=' defaulting to a specific 'lang=' setting makes sense, and can be over-ridden when downloading tag data by a client specific setting. The only addition that needs handling is to sort out just what goes into 'lang=' when more than one language is required by the on the ground situation. In my opinion, we just select a suitable single character separator and add the tag with an appropriate list if required. I don't think you want to start messing with 'name=' itself in this case? But the tools should be able to override the 'name=' tag with a more suitable local option based on a local 'lang=' setting. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
I meant a semicomma, sorry. That is, ; - Svavar On 25/07/12 16:24, Lester Caine wrote: Svavar Kjarrval wrote: I was thinking about roughly the same idea except the process is a bit different. There could be an alternate usage through references. Something like [de] in the name tag could indicate a reference to name:de. A semicolon in the name tag could be used to indicate the order of languages to display or backups in case the name:* in the front of the line don't exist. The use of ':' in a key is well establish as flagging a language specific version, so one would not touch that. The 'name=' defaulting to a specific 'lang=' setting makes sense, and can be over-ridden when downloading tag data by a client specific setting. The only addition that needs handling is to sort out just what goes into 'lang=' when more than one language is required by the on the ground situation. In my opinion, we just select a suitable single character separator and add the tag with an appropriate list if required. I don't think you want to start messing with 'name=' itself in this case? But the tools should be able to override the 'name=' tag with a more suitable local option based on a local 'lang=' setting. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
It does fall under OSM's jurisdiction to indicate what the official names are and which are translations. If I'm a tourist in a country, I need to know the names on the signs, not a renderer's guess or my native language's name. If the renderers have to guess, they have to create additional data for each area and research which languages they should use in each of them, instead of focusing on the rendering process itself. - Svavar Kjarrval On 25/07/12 16:10, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote: In my opinion sorting languages for rendering is the renderer's problem, one can assume that name= tags in countries with a single language is the national language, but for a renderer to understand this, poligons with lang=* or similar must exist (either within OSM or in a separate database) It will be much more logic to store every name in name:xx tags, and let renderers sort out how to deal with them. Renderers must thus have fallback rules in places where several language name tags exists, but again, this is the renderers problem. Now, to allow completely I18N compability in the maps, one would need every version of names to be available, either in name:xx tags within OSM, or in a separate database for name translation. This way, OSM could be completely neutral to naming disputes (as no 'default' name would exist in our database), leaving renderers resolving the various problems. I would love to see our 'default' map layer to show names based on browser language settings (i.e. Moscow would show as Moskva on my map, and my home town show up in Cyrlic in the browser of anyone from Moscov) I understand that it might be a long and complicated task cleaning this up, as 'the entire world' is tagged with name= and only a few regions and places have aditional name:xx Aun Y. Johnsen Sent from my iPad ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: Actually 'lang' could be populated from a higher level area setting initially? Well, it could be... but I'm not really a fan of this idea, because... You would need to do a spatial query to get the setting from the higher level. And this complicates everything, because... - Things (multipolygons boundaries especially) get broken pretty frequently, so a single bug in one relation or way could do a lot of damage. - It means that you have to check a whole hierarchy to decide if you need to regenerate the value, which means this would order of magnitude harder to implement in data consumers SW. - Not all data consumers use whole planet data and if they cut out only a small region, they don't have the higher level in their data. - You would need to define how to resolve conflicts, e.g. a way spanning multiple areas with defined lang format. I'm just talking about an initial setup to get things started. This sidesteps a number of problems in implementation, my only comment would be as I indicated. lang=it - de or de / it needs to be a single identifiable character. Formatting should be language specific when building a 'text= string, and that could be populated in a language specific way for the users preference anyway? I don't really understand this. To clarify, my suggestion was basically this: let the lang format be arbitrary, just replace any string matching [a-z_]+ by key:[a-z_]+. E.g. lang=it - de = name=Bolzano - Bozen lang=it (de) = name=Bolzano (Bozen) lang=it / de = name=Bolzano / Bozen While I can understand why you propose this, it makes 'decoding' the languages by tools a little more difficult, and 'hard codes' a format, which alternative uses may need to replace? Does hard coding the display format here make sense in general terms? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote: I understand that it might be a long and complicated task cleaning this up, as 'the entire world' is tagged with name= and only a few regions and places have aditional name:xx It would not take that long to clean this up, but it is something that needs to be done anyway if only to identify the languages that appear in 'name=' so that we can then translate them correctly? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
2012/7/25 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: Actually 'lang' could be populated from a higher level area setting initially? Well, it could be... but I'm not really a fan of this idea, because... You would need to do a spatial query to get the setting from the higher level. And this complicates everything, because... - Things (multipolygons boundaries especially) get broken pretty frequently, so a single bug in one relation or way could do a lot of damage. - It means that you have to check a whole hierarchy to decide if you need to regenerate the value, which means this would order of magnitude harder to implement in data consumers SW. - Not all data consumers use whole planet data and if they cut out only a small region, they don't have the higher level in their data. - You would need to define how to resolve conflicts, e.g. a way spanning multiple areas with defined lang format. I'm just talking about an initial setup to get things started. This sidesteps a number of problems in implementation, my only comment would be as I indicated. lang=it - de or de / it needs to be a single identifiable character. Formatting should be language specific when building a 'text= string, and that could be populated in a language specific way for the users preference anyway? I don't really understand this. To clarify, my suggestion was basically this: let the lang format be arbitrary, just replace any string matching [a-z_]+ by key:[a-z_]+. E.g. lang=it - de = name=Bolzano - Bozen lang=it (de) = name=Bolzano (Bozen) lang=it / de = name=Bolzano / Bozen While I can understand why you propose this, it makes 'decoding' the languages by tools a little more difficult, and 'hard codes' a format, which alternative uses may need to replace? Does hard coding the display format here make sense in general terms? Mapnik needs a default that it can work with, so I think hard coding it does indeed make sense. Polyglot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: lang=it - de = name=Bolzano - Bozen lang=it (de) = name=Bolzano (Bozen) lang=it / de = name=Bolzano / Bozen While I can understand why you propose this, it makes 'decoding' the languages by tools a little more difficult, and 'hard codes' a format, which alternative uses may need to replace? Does hard coding the display format here make sense in general terms? Totally agree, this formatting is not the databases problem, and should be left to the render to decide how to format e.g. the desired list of languages lang=it;de. M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 01:35:21 Lester Caine wrote: Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote: I understand that it might be a long and complicated task cleaning this up, as 'the entire world' is tagged with name= and only a few regions and places have aditional name:xx It would not take that long to clean this up, but it is something that needs to be done anyway if only to identify the languages that appear in 'name=' so that we can then translate them correctly? This was discussed in April in the thread: Transcription and 'internationalization' in place names My suggestion at the time was to always include name:xx=* for the local language xx, even if it is redundant with the name=* tag. The definition of name=* then becomes subtly altered to mean The label we use if no language is specified. Then we can argue what goes into that label, but it could be 'whatever is printed on the sign, including multiple languages'. It is an issue for me as I am mapping in Korea. In Korea we have Korean and English on most signs, but in OSM we are trying to include name:ko and name:en as the two parts separated out. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
I do not agree with you on this, besides, the language polygon I mentioned can solve your desire here. If the renderer knows what is the official language in an area, than you can in theory tuggle freely between that/those official languages and any other language you would desire. For instance if I am in a country not using latin alphabet street signs, I still would like to see the names in latin script. IMO all of this is not up to OSM, but to renderers. A tag in border relations should be enough to indicate official languages. After that it is up to the renderer how to solve it. Doing it this way relieves OSM from any naming disputes (we are thus handling all names equally), and renderers choose how much effort they want to put in name rendering. Your tourist rendering can easily be done inside an app where official language have been set in a boundary relation. This might also allow municipal relations to overide national standards, as I believe not all parts of Belgium have the same order between the three official languages rendered on street signs. The same can apply for countries that have more official languages only in certain regions, such as northern Norway also have Samii names, the southern part of Finland use a lot of Swedish names, various regions of Switzerland have different settings, etc. Your approach I feel is exposing OSM to a lot of politics and possible edit wars, while the option I try to suggest might limit this type impact for OSM. Same also, for all those countries where tthere are only one official language, the language tag in the boundary relation can allow the renderers to assume that name= is the same as name:xx even if name:xx isn't tagged. That way it will not be confused with name:yy and name:zz Aun Y. Johnsen Sent from my iPad On 25. juli 2012, at 13:37, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: Message: 3 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:30:47 + From: Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine Message-ID: 50101f37@kjarrval.is Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 It does fall under OSM's jurisdiction to indicate what the official names are and which are translations. If I'm a tourist in a country, I need to know the names on the signs, not a renderer's guess or my native language's name. If the renderers have to guess, they have to create additional data for each area and research which languages they should use in each of them, instead of focusing on the rendering process itself. - Svavar Kjarrval On 25/07/12 16:10, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote: In my opinion sorting languages for rendering is the renderer's problem, one can assume that name= tags in countries with a single language is the national language, but for a renderer to understand this, poligons with lang=* or similar must exist (either within OSM or in a separate database) It will be much more logic to store every name in name:xx tags, and let renderers sort out how to deal with them. Renderers must thus have fallback rules in places where several language name tags exists, but again, this is the renderers problem. Now, to allow completely I18N compability in the maps, one would need every version of names to be available, either in name:xx tags within OSM, or in a separate database for name translation. This way, OSM could be completely neutral to naming disputes (as no 'default' name would exist in our database), leaving renderers resolving the various problems. I would love to see our 'default' map layer to show names based on browser language settings (i.e. Moscow would show as Moskva on my map, and my home town show up in Cyrlic in the browser of anyone from Moscov) I understand that it might be a long and complicated task cleaning this up, as 'the entire world' is tagged with name= and only a few regions and places have aditional name:xx Aun Y. Johnsen Sent from my iPad ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: While I can understand why you propose this, it makes 'decoding' the languages by tools a little more difficult, Not really, it's a matter of simple regular expression. and 'hard codes' a format, which alternative uses may need to replace? What? That was the point of my proposal, NO hard-coded format (hard coded in the sense of specifying_one-true-format_ in the algorithm itself). If you stick with my proposal: - you can easily satisfy on the ground rule for the local default value of tag generated from 'lang' template - if you don't want/need the default local template, just ignore the lang value, and generate your own value from key:lang values - if you only want a list of locally used languages, but don't care about the locally used format of multilingual signs, it's again a matter of one simple regular expression (i.e. you can always go in the direction format string=list of langs, but you can never go in the opposite direction) Actually when you put it that way it does make sense ... I was thinking more on displaying two or more names while rendering, but of cause the 'on the ground' format is just as important. I'm just used to keeping data and format separate ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
Hi, On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 09:33:43AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, I'd like to hear the opinion of others in OpenStreetMap about the following situation that Data Working Group has been asked to mediate. The official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. To the untrained eye there's not much of a difference to Russian but of course the devil is in the detail, here's a street name example: name:ru = Фурманова улица name:uk = Фурманова вулиця How has this been solved in Finland? They have a Swedish minority which is a majority in some places in which case (i heard) the Swedish signs are at the top, otherwise Finnish ist at the top. Its a little bit different as both languages are official languages as i remember. I stick with a very simple rule - Whats on the road sign - that should be in the database. If there is both - the one at the top should be in name and the other in the appropriate secondary language tag. You want to be able to identify the road sign by your map. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
On 25 jul 2012, at 21:59, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote: Hi, On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 09:33:43AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, I'd like to hear the opinion of others in OpenStreetMap about the following situation that Data Working Group has been asked to mediate. The official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. To the untrained eye there's not much of a difference to Russian but of course the devil is in the detail, here's a street name example: name:ru = Фурманова улица name:uk = Фурманова вулиця How has this been solved in Finland? They have a Swedish minority which is a majority in some places in which case (i heard) the Swedish signs are at the top, otherwise Finnish ist at the top. If the area is swedish (i.e. swedish name only or on top) then name=sv-name name:sv=sv-name name:fi=fi-name In finnish areas it is reversed name=fi-name name:sv=sv-name name:fi=fi-name Its a little bit different as both languages are official languages as i remember. I stick with a very simple rule - Whats on the road sign - that should be in the database. If there is both - the one at the top should be in name and the other in the appropriate secondary language tag. You want to be able to identify the road sign by your map. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
At 2012-07-25 00:33, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, I'd like to hear the opinion of others in OpenStreetMap about the following situation that Data Working Group has been asked to mediate. The official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. ...So, my questions to you are 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian? 2. The general question: What exactly is the local language in an area - can we come up with some rule of thumb that says if X% of people in an area of at least Y sq km use the language... or so? I would say the definition of area should be as local as is reasonable/possible. For many countries, this is certainly sub-national. In a given area, if the vast majority uses a given language, that language should be used/assumed for the name value. It would be good if we had some meta-data somewhere to define this, as well as other defaults/assumptions for an area (e.g. oneway=no except for junction=roundabout and highway=*_link, lanes, sidewalks, maxspeed). If there is no vast majority (say, less than 80%), I would suggest no name tag - only name:xx tags. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
