Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
I think the book is a really good introduction to wicket. I actually like it when the author first presents one way of doing something in a big code example and then shows how to do this particular example in a much shorter and cleaner way using another component. I think this is a really smart way of showing the general mechanisms in wicket and then introducing some methods that allow you to do it faster. Two things I think are missing in the book are: a component reference: Also the wicket site does not contain a full reference. This is extremely importantant I think because if you want people to find and use the components then they should be documented. The wicket site itself is also not that good at it (especially wicket extensions is really low on documentation). an explanation of back button support: As I learned, wicket supports solving the back button problem but you have to know a number of things; it is not transparent. Since back button support is one of the selling points of wicket, I think it should have been described in the book (it is easy to break back button support if you don't know what you are doing). Cheers Erik - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
On 17/09/06, Erik Brakkee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a component reference: Also the wicket site does not contain a full reference. This is extremely importantant I think because if you want people to find and use the components then they should be documented. The wicket site itself is also not that good at it (especially wicket extensions is really low on documentation). You /have/ found the wicket-examples site/sub-project, haven't you? Maybe take a look here (http://www.wicket-wiki.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Documentation_Index) too? /Gwyn - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
That doesn't really contain Erik was stating. At least not that I could find. If you look here, http://myfaces.apache.org/tomahawk/index.html and then on the left there is a Components section with information about each component. That's what Wicket needs for both the core and extension components. Also, why can't the text on the wicket site be bigger? It looks horrible and is hard to read. I have to increase the text size with the browser. Ok, slight hijack there. GreggOn 9/17/06, Gwyn Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/09/06, Erik Brakkee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a component reference: Also the wicket site does not contain a full reference. This is extremely importantant I think because if you want people to find and use the components then they should be documented. The wicket site itself is also not that good at it (especially wicket extensions is really low on documentation).You /have/ found the wicket-examples site/sub-project, haven't you? Maybe take a look here(http://www.wicket-wiki.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Documentation_Index)too?/Gwyn- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easierDownload IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Wicket-user mailing listWicket-user@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
If you look here: http://www.wicket-library.com/wicket-examples/compref you can see the components in live action. Perhaps not a complete list, but certainly something worthwile (better than screenshots imo). Each component has a short description and you can also look at the source code using the link. If that isn't good enough you can download the examples and have everything available in source and javadoc. As for the font size, that is probably a problem of a high resolution screen ;-). On my cinema display the font is pretty small compared to my gmail reader. However, on my normal laptop screen the font is just the right size: large enough to read, and small enough to pack more information on the screen. At my company I'm trying to convince our designer team to do a new version of the website, but they are reluctant to donate some time. Currently I don't have the energy to drag them by the hairs and make them do it. However, I have sized up the font to 9pt on the main, wicket-1.2 and wicket-extensions sites. I hope this offers some comfort. Martijn On 9/17/06, Gregg Bolinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That doesn't really contain Erik was stating. At least not that I could find. If you look here, http://myfaces.apache.org/tomahawk/index.html and then on the left there is a Components section with information about each component. That's what Wicket needs for both the core and extension components. Also, why can't the text on the wicket site be bigger? It looks horrible and is hard to read. I have to increase the text size with the browser. Ok, slight hijack there. Gregg On 9/17/06, Gwyn Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/09/06, Erik Brakkee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a component reference: Also the wicket site does not contain a full reference. This is extremely importantant I think because if you want people to find and use the components then they should be documented. The wicket site itself is also not that good at it (especially wicket extensions is really low on documentation). You /have/ found the wicket-examples site/sub-project, haven't you? Maybe take a look here (http://www.wicket-wiki.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Documentation_Index) too? /Gwyn - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user -- Download Wicket 1.2.2 now! New Ajax components: Tree, TreeTable and ModalWindow -- http://wicketframework.org - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
On 9/17/06, Gregg Bolinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That doesn't really contain Erik was stating. At least not that I could find. If you look here, http://myfaces.apache.org/tomahawk/index.html and then on the left there is a Components section with information about each component. That's what Wicket needs for both the core and extension components. This http://www.wicket-library.com/wicket-examples/compref is our best effort to date. Furthermore, I do hope people do realize this is an open source project, not backed by big organizations etc, just our free time, where we in fact spend almost every free minute of our time on improving and supporting it (and over two years like that by yours truly). What we really need is more people besides the core comitters that take initiative and send in patches for things like this. rant We feel we do a good enough job with JavaDoc (I believe a much better job than many open source frameworks) and the examples project (which covers most of the functionality of the whole of Wicket). We hope the rest will be taken up by users working on the WIKI and sending in patches and stuff so that we have the project functioning the way open (source) projects are supposed to be functioning. /rant Also, why can't the text on the wicket site be bigger? It looks horrible and is hard to read. I have to increase the text size with the browser. Ok, slight hijack there. People complained about that before. We should fix it. I opened up an issue for it. Eelco - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
On 9/17/06, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At my company I'm trying to convince ourdesigner team to do a new version of the website, but they arereluctant to donate some time.Damn designers. :) Think they own the world and stuff. Just tell them that if they spend that hour on making a new design they will have my eternal gratitude.Frank - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
On 9/17/06, Frank Bille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just tell them that if they spend that hour on making a new design they will have my eternal gratitude. Done... :-D Martijn -- Download Wicket 1.2.2 now! New Ajax components: Tree, TreeTable and ModalWindow -- http://wicketframework.org - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
On 9/17/06, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you look here:http://www.wicket-library.com/wicket-examples/comprefyou can see the components in live action. Perhaps not a complete list, but certainly something worthwile (better than screenshots imo).Each component has a short description and you can also look at thesource code using the link. If that isn't good enough you can downloadthe examples and have everything available in source and javadoc. This is the link I am already using regularly, but I was explicitly referring to wicket-extensions and not to wicket. And you say that the list for wicket core is incomplete? Aha, then what components are missing and how do we make it complete? Perhaps we can make complete list and distribute the work for documenting it. A complete component reference is really crucial. How else are people going to find these excellent reusable components? - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
On 9/17/06, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you look here: http://www.wicket-library.com/wicket-examples/compref you can see the components in live action. Perhaps not a complete list, but certainly something worthwile (better than screenshots imo). Each component has a short description and you can also look at the source code using the link. If that isn't good enough you can download the examples and have everything available in source and javadoc. This is the link I am already using regularly, but I was explicitly referring to wicket-extensions and not to wicket. And you say that the list for wicket core is incomplete? Aha, then what components are missing and how do we make it complete? Perhaps we can make complete list and distribute the work for documenting it. A complete component reference is really crucial. How else are people going to find these excellent reusable components? A way to check this is to look for an inheritance report of wicket.Component (e.g. F4 in Eclipse) as see what components are missing from it. Most components are covered some way or another, including the extensions component, but not in the component reference. For instance, the ajax components have their own section in wicket-examples/ajax. It would be great to have more of the extensions components in the reference as well. Patches typically go here http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=119783atid=684977. It would also be great to have additions for both 1.2 and 2.0. Cheers, Eelco - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
I just purchased Pro Wicket today and have made it almost through chapter 3. I've submitted about 4-5 Errata's so far. Just small things that the technical reviewer probably should have caught since most are source code errors. Aside from that, I am enjoying the book. I admit that I haven't looked at wicket in a while. So for me, it's a nice refresher course. I'd agree that there are a lot of instances (so far) where Karthik shows you one way, tells you it's bad, and shows you a better way. But there are few, if any, books that don't do that. It's a way to lead the reader into things. Keep in mind that if you are posting on this mailing list prior to Pro Wicket being released, you will have a different perspective on the book that a reader that hasn't done anything with Wicket. So you have to keep that in mind. Anyway, I am stoked that there is a book on Wicket and I'm sure I'll be posting more on the mailing list in the coming days as I explore it deeper and try and determine if it's worth putting in my toolbox and using. I'll also be posting reviews on Amazon and JavaRanch.com when I am finished going through the book.Gregg BolingerJavaRanch Sheriff.On 9/15/06, Che Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hey Pierre-Yves,I absolutely agree with you! But then you actually have to say Not like this! when you do point out an error in your book.I don't know if you have read this book, but in quite a few places the author shows you one (absolutely valid) way of doing something, then another one that is much better, cleaner, neater. That has nothing to do with errors but with design concepts.Additionally, Igor already pointed out earlier that the biggest problem with this is, that the author does not TELL you that he is just gonna do it like this now to demonstrate something. You think Well, that's the way to do it! and then suddenly on the next pages you learn a better way! Forget what you learned before, do it like this...Well, in my other posts I elaborated this a little more and I start to feel that I cannot really express what I am trying to say. *sigh* What I want (:) is examples where the currently demonstrated concept is applicable and produces nice code that you would and should use in a production environment as well. Thus you learn the new concept, feature or whatever and also learn how and where to apply it properly. // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Pierre-Yves Saumont Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:53 AM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket Che, One thing I have learned is that you learn much more from your errors than from your successes. The reason is that when you make an error, you have to figure why it didn't work and how to fix it. When you have success, you already know the reason: it's just because you are very good at what you are doing (which is often an error from which you can learn... much later and at a much higher cost:-( I think showing what not to do is at least as important (and somtimes more important) as showing the right way. It's even more important when the wrong way is the more evident one. As an author, one has to show why the user should not take this route, rather than just forgetting about it and let the user discover it later at higher cost. Even very basic features are concerned. I am sure no one here ever use the default package. However, I think it is good in an introductory Java book to put the first HelloWorld class in the default package. It is then much more evident to explain why one should not do this. Pierre-Yves Che Schneider a écrit : Okay, understood. And you are right, there hopefullt (and luckily, looking back at my code from former days :) always is a progress and you learn (baby-)step by (baby-)step. However, I think that I chose to read a book in order to skip a few of these steps. Basically, I am trying to learn from other peoples mistakes and take advantage of their (superios) knowledge of a subject. So would it not be better instead of letting me go (although guided) through thesame steps I would go through by myself just introducing me to the right way of doing it? Please don't get me wrong: I still think the approach to have an application evolve while you read the book is absolutely fine! However, I would have wished for examples that actually are being written and then used (with only minor modifications) till the end. About your example: Of course you are right. You cannot overload a newbie programmer's brainwith all the features of a language from the start. But you could show him ONE anonymous class. Then another in some other place. When he get's the hang of what it is and how and where to use it, you can use the classes he already wrote and introduce some more going You have already seen how anonymous classes work - now here is another brilliant place where you
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
Hey Igor, Although I disagree about the 'real life' (that's what you have the design for: to avoid the constant architecture change), you are right that in a book it is a valid approach. However, I very much dislike it unless you clearly state in the beginning that you are gonna do it in a messy way just to show something. Otherwise people (me) spend time reading, understanding and learning what was said just to learn that 'Actually, there is a much better way of doing this.'. And that is what it comes down to in the book sometimes: not 'different' ways but actually 'better' ways! If you want to show a certain feature of the API, show it in an example that is an actual case where you would use it. Don't just write code to show the feature and then re-do it. I will never learn when to actually use the feature in real life then! But hey - apparently that's just me... :) // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:42 PM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket And as I stated in my last email, I personally do not like the way of saying 'Let's do it like this!' and then a chapter later you revoke it all because it can be done quicker and cleaner differently. for an introductory book i do not think this is all that bad actually. you are learning the api. you figure out how to do things using the simple api, and the deeper you delve, discovering more advanced features, you can simplify the code you have written before. isnt this what happens in real life as well? at least with this approach you see the progression instead of heaving the book go very very deep into some api to explain how to do something simple efficiently and lose you in the middle of it. -Igor __ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. __ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
the point i was trying to make is that the progression itself can be an important part of the learning - its the journey not the destination stuff.compare the code you write now to the code you wrote two years ago. i bet the one you write now is a lot more efficient and much cleaner. now imagine yourself two years ago looking at the code you write today. i bet you wouldnt just go oh damn thats the way i should do it from now on and instead go umm...what the hell is this and how does it work a more concrete example. show a newbie java programmer code full of anonymous classes. chances are they are not going to understand it even though it can be the best approach to the problem.the point that you make about it being unexpected is also valid. it mightve been better if karthik gave you a heads up that there are better ways of doing this later on. -IgorOn 9/15/06, Che Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Igor,Although I disagree about the 'real life' (that's what you have thedesign for: to avoid the constant architecture change), you are rightthat in a book it is a valid approach.However, I very much dislike it unless you clearly state in the beginning that you are gonna do it in a messy way just to showsomething. Otherwise people (me) spend time reading, understanding andlearning what was said just to learn that 'Actually, there is a muchbetter way of doing this.'. And that is what it comes down to in the book sometimes: not 'different' ways but actually 'better' ways!If you want to show a certain feature of the API, show it in an examplethat is an actual case where you would use it. Don't just write code to show the feature and then re-do it. I will never learn when to actuallyuse the feature in real life then!But hey - apparently that's just me... :)// Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:42 PM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket And as I stated in my last email, I personally do not like the way of saying 'Let's do it like this!' and then a chapter later you revoke it all because it can be done quicker and cleaner differently. for an introductory book i do not think this is all that bad actually. you are learning the api. you figure out how to do things using the simple api, and the deeper you delve, discovering more advanced features, you can simplify the code you have written before. isnt this what happens in real life as well? at least with this approach you see the progression instead of heaving the book go very very deep into some api to explain how to do something simple efficiently and lose you in the middle of it. -Igor __ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message.__DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. -Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimohttp://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___Wicket-user mailing listWicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
Okay, understood. And you are right, there hopefullt (and luckily, looking back at my code from former days :) always is a progress and you learn (baby-)step by (baby-)step. However, I think that I chose to read a book in order to skip a few of these steps. Basically, I am trying to learn from other peoples mistakes and take advantage of their (superios) knowledge of a subject. So would it not be better instead of letting me go (although guided) through the same steps I would go through by myself just introducing me to the right way of doing it? Please don't get me wrong: I still think the approach to have an application evolve while you read the book is absolutely fine! However, I would have wished for examples that actually are being written and then used (with only minor modifications) till the end. About your example: Of course you are right. You cannot overload a newbie programmer's brainwith all the features of a language from the start. But you could show him ONE anonymous class. Then another in some other place. When he get's the hang of what it is and how and where to use it, you can use the classes he already wrote and introduce some more going You have already seen how anonymous classes work - now here is another brilliant place where you can use it. If you don't get it, go back to chapter X and reread the part about anonymous classes. Thus you still have code that is the way it should be AND you get the newbie to understand how to program properly and use concepts where appropriate. On the other hand, showing the newbie how to write the (possibly complex) program without anonymous classes and then have him refactor the whole thing later to use anonymous classes he will not understand when to use and when not to use anonymous classes and he would have to go through the whole code again trying to understand it again. But again, that is just my opinion. And I am difficult... :) // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:24 AM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket the point i was trying to make is that the progression itself can be an important part of the learning - its the journey not the destination stuff. compare the code you write now to the code you wrote two years ago. i bet the one you write now is a lot more efficient and much cleaner. now imagine yourself two years ago looking at the code you write today. i bet you wouldnt just go oh damn thats the way i should do it from now on and instead go umm...what the hell is this and how does it work a more concrete example. show a newbie java programmer code full of anonymous classes. chances are they are not going to understand it even though it can be the best approach to the problem. the point that you make about it being unexpected is also valid. it mightve been better if karthik gave you a heads up that there are better ways of doing this later on. -Igor On 9/15/06, Che Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Igor, Although I disagree about the 'real life' (that's what you have the design for: to avoid the constant architecture change), you are right that in a book it is a valid approach. However, I very much dislike it unless you clearly state in the beginning that you are gonna do it in a messy way just to show something. Otherwise people (me) spend time reading, understanding and learning what was said just to learn that 'Actually, there is a much better way of doing this.'. And that is what it comes down to in the book sometimes: not 'different' ways but actually 'better' ways! If you want to show a certain feature of the API, show it in an example that is an actual case where you would use it. Don't just write code to show the feature and then re-do it. I will never learn when to actually use the feature in real life then! But hey - apparently that's just me... :) // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:42 PM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket And as I stated in my last email, I personally do not like the way of saying 'Let's do it like this!' and then a chapter later you revoke it all because it can be done quicker and cleaner differently. for an introductory book i do not think this is all that bad actually. you are learning the api. you figure out
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
On the other hand, showing the newbie how to write the (possiblycomplex) program without anonymous classes and then have him refactor the whole thing later to use anonymous classes he will not understandwhen to use and when not to use anonymous classes and he would have togo through the whole code again trying to understand it again. except that i wouldnt consider a few printed pages of code a complex example, but thats just me :)to each their own i guessone thing to remember is that this is an introductory book aimed at newbies. also keep in mind that people coming form mvc frameworks lke struts/webwork/foo or jsps/php/etc might not necessarily be up to speed on OO, so baby steps were intentional. and hopefully this approach will avoid the framework coder, because it teaches you not just the how but the why :) maybe the problem for you is that the why is communicated in a too-much-hands-on manner :) -Igor -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:24 AM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket the point i was trying to make is that the progression itself can be an important part of the learning - its the journey not the destination stuff. compare the code you write now to the code you wrote two years ago. i bet the one you write now is a lot more efficient and much cleaner. now imagine yourself two years ago looking at the code you write today. i bet you wouldnt just go oh damn thats the way i should do it from now on and instead go umm...what the hell is this and how does it work a more concrete example. show a newbie java programmer code full of anonymous classes. chances are they are not going to understand it even though it can be the best approach to the problem. the point that you make about it being unexpected is also valid. it mightve been better if karthik gave you a heads up that there are better ways of doing this later on. -Igor On 9/15/06, Che Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Igor, Although I disagree about the 'real life' (that's what you have the design for: to avoid the constant architecture change), you are right that in a book it is a valid approach. However, I very much dislike it unless you clearly state in the beginning that you are gonna do it in a messy way just to show something. Otherwise people (me) spend time reading, understanding and learning what was said just to learn that 'Actually, there is a much better way of doing this.'. And that is what it comes down to in the book sometimes: not 'different' ways but actually 'better' ways! If you want to show a certain feature of the API, show it in an example that is an actual case where you would use it. Don't just write code to show the feature and then re-do it. I will never learn when to actually use the feature in real life then! But hey - apparently that's just me... :) // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:42 PM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket And as I stated in my last email, I personally do not like the way of saying 'Let's do it like this!' and then a chapter later you revoke it all because it can be done quicker and cleaner differently.for an introductory book i do not think this is all that bad actually. you are learning the api. you figure out how to do things using the simple api, and the deeper you delve, discovering more advanced features, you can simplify the code you have written before. isnt this what happens in real life as well? at least with this approach you see the progression instead of heaving the book go very very deep into some api to explain how to do something simple efficiently and lose you in the middle of it. -Igor __ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. __ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. -- --- Using Tomcat but need to do
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
Che, One thing I have learned is that you learn much more from your errors than from your successes. The reason is that when you make an error, you have to figure why it didn't work and how to fix it. When you have success, you already know the reason: it's just because you are very good at what you are doing (which is often an error from which you can learn... much later and at a much higher cost:-( I think showing what not to do is at least as important (and somtimes more important) as showing the right way. It's even more important when the wrong way is the more evident one. As an author, one has to show why the user should not take this route, rather than just forgetting about it and let the user discover it later at higher cost. Even very basic features are concerned. I am sure no one here ever use the default package. However, I think it is good in an introductory Java book to put the first HelloWorld class in the default package. It is then much more evident to explain why one should not do this. Pierre-Yves Che Schneider a écrit : Okay, understood. And you are right, there hopefullt (and luckily, looking back at my code from former days :) always is a progress and you learn (baby-)step by (baby-)step. However, I think that I chose to read a book in order to skip a few of these steps. Basically, I am trying to learn from other peoples mistakes and take advantage of their (superios) knowledge of a subject. So would it not be better instead of letting me go (although guided) through the same steps I would go through by myself just introducing me to the right way of doing it? Please don't get me wrong: I still think the approach to have an application evolve while you read the book is absolutely fine! However, I would have wished for examples that actually are being written and then used (with only minor modifications) till the end. About your example: Of course you are right. You cannot overload a newbie programmer's brainwith all the features of a language from the start. But you could show him ONE anonymous class. Then another in some other place. When he get's the hang of what it is and how and where to use it, you can use the classes he already wrote and introduce some more going You have already seen how anonymous classes work - now here is another brilliant place where you can use it. If you don't get it, go back to chapter X and reread the part about anonymous classes. Thus you still have code that is the way it should be AND you get the newbie to understand how to program properly and use concepts where appropriate. On the other hand, showing the newbie how to write the (possibly complex) program without anonymous classes and then have him refactor the whole thing later to use anonymous classes he will not understand when to use and when not to use anonymous classes and he would have to go through the whole code again trying to understand it again. But again, that is just my opinion. And I am difficult... :) // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:24 AM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket the point i was trying to make is that the progression itself can be an important part of the learning - its the journey not the destination stuff. compare the code you write now to the code you wrote two years ago. i bet the one you write now is a lot more efficient and much cleaner. now imagine yourself two years ago looking at the code you write today. i bet you wouldnt just go oh damn thats the way i should do it from now on and instead go umm...what the hell is this and how does it work a more concrete example. show a newbie java programmer code full of anonymous classes. chances are they are not going to understand it even though it can be the best approach to the problem. the point that you make about it being unexpected is also valid. it mightve been better if karthik gave you a heads up that there are better ways of doing this later on. -Igor On 9/15/06, Che Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Igor, Although I disagree about the 'real life' (that's what you have the design for: to avoid the constant architecture change), you are right that in a book it is a valid approach. However, I very much dislike it unless you clearly state in the beginning that you are gonna do it in a messy way just to show something. Otherwise people (me) spend time reading, understanding and learning what was said just to learn that 'Actually, there is a much better way of doing this.'. And that is what it comes down to in the book sometimes: not 'different' ways but actually 'better' ways! If you want to show a certain feature
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
except that i wouldnt consider a few printed pages of code a complex example, but thats just me :) Well, some of the examples are actually quite complex - if you are new in Wicket. There are loads of IConverters and stuff that need to register each other (chained) with the main application. It is maybe not complex quantity wise but to get through it if you are new to the subject, I think it can be quite challenging. to each their own i guess So true, so true. That's why I only tried to state my opinion for people who might think alike to undertand what they can expect of the book ... and what they cannot! :) one thing to remember is that this is an introductory book aimed at newbies. also keep in mind that people coming form mvc frameworks lke struts/webwork/foo or jsps/php/etc might not necessarily be up to speed on OO, so baby steps were intentional. Oh sure - I totally agree. Baby steps are absolutely fine by me - I can always skip the parts that are too boring. But ESPECIALLY with people coming from php (for example) you have to be careful what you teach them and show them how to write code in a real language (;) and not confuse them by redoing everything over and over again. As a side note: a java developer who claims to have written applications with a web framework and actually any java developer who calls himself just that and is not up to speed on OO is not a java developer. and hopefully this approach will avoid the framework coder, because it teaches you not just the how but the why :) Hmmm, yeah ... good point. But maybe I am still not clear enough on what I mean (language barrier?). I absolutely agree that you have to have the why. One of the points I stressed about the book was that the author assumes people already understand certain Wicket concepts while with other concept he keeps on explaining them. It is quite unbalanced in my opinion. In my copy (it's a very early one, I don't know if it still applies) on pages 189 and 190 this is one of the places where he moves way to fast in my opinion. Additionally, there are quite a lot of good books on general Java coding and this should be a prerequisite before reading the book: if you don't know Java it will be difficult to grasp the Wicket concepts anyways. And in my opinion, especially with this book. :) maybe the problem for you is that the why is communicated in a too-much-hands-on manner :) Yes, maybe that's it. I admit that I very rarely actually compile and run the examples in books - I want the concepts, not the code. :) Plus I usually understand the code by looking at it anyways and if I don't then I won't either when I run the example... Anyway, I think this has been a very lively and interesting exchange of thoughts. I think, it now comes down to the very fundamental view on coding and what one personally likes and dislikes in a tech book. Thanks a lot, it was very inspiring... // Che __ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket
Hey Pierre-Yves, I absolutely agree with you! But then you actually have to say Not like this! when you do point out an error in your book. I don't know if you have read this book, but in quite a few places the author shows you one (absolutely valid) way of doing something, then another one that is much better, cleaner, neater. That has nothing to do with errors but with design concepts. Additionally, Igor already pointed out earlier that the biggest problem with this is, that the author does not TELL you that he is just gonna do it like this now to demonstrate something. You think Well, that's the way to do it! and then suddenly on the next pages you learn a better way! Forget what you learned before, do it like this... Well, in my other posts I elaborated this a little more and I start to feel that I cannot really express what I am trying to say. *sigh* What I want (:) is examples where the currently demonstrated concept is applicable and produces nice code that you would and should use in a production environment as well. Thus you learn the new concept, feature or whatever and also learn how and where to apply it properly. // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pierre-Yves Saumont Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:53 AM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket Che, One thing I have learned is that you learn much more from your errors than from your successes. The reason is that when you make an error, you have to figure why it didn't work and how to fix it. When you have success, you already know the reason: it's just because you are very good at what you are doing (which is often an error from which you can learn... much later and at a much higher cost:-( I think showing what not to do is at least as important (and somtimes more important) as showing the right way. It's even more important when the wrong way is the more evident one. As an author, one has to show why the user should not take this route, rather than just forgetting about it and let the user discover it later at higher cost. Even very basic features are concerned. I am sure no one here ever use the default package. However, I think it is good in an introductory Java book to put the first HelloWorld class in the default package. It is then much more evident to explain why one should not do this. Pierre-Yves Che Schneider a écrit : Okay, understood. And you are right, there hopefullt (and luckily, looking back at my code from former days :) always is a progress and you learn (baby-)step by (baby-)step. However, I think that I chose to read a book in order to skip a few of these steps. Basically, I am trying to learn from other peoples mistakes and take advantage of their (superios) knowledge of a subject. So would it not be better instead of letting me go (although guided) through the same steps I would go through by myself just introducing me to the right way of doing it? Please don't get me wrong: I still think the approach to have an application evolve while you read the book is absolutely fine! However, I would have wished for examples that actually are being written and then used (with only minor modifications) till the end. About your example: Of course you are right. You cannot overload a newbie programmer's brainwith all the features of a language from the start. But you could show him ONE anonymous class. Then another in some other place. When he get's the hang of what it is and how and where to use it, you can use the classes he already wrote and introduce some more going You have already seen how anonymous classes work - now here is another brilliant place where you can use it. If you don't get it, go back to chapter X and reread the part about anonymous classes. Thus you still have code that is the way it should be AND you get the newbie to understand how to program properly and use concepts where appropriate. On the other hand, showing the newbie how to write the (possibly complex) program without anonymous classes and then have him refactor the whole thing later to use anonymous classes he will not understand when to use and when not to use anonymous classes and he would have to go through the whole code again trying to understand it again. But again, that is just my opinion. And I am difficult... :) // Che -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Vaynberg Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:24 AM To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great first book onwicket the point i was trying to make is that the progression itself can be an important part of the learning
