Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
The Canopy OFDM line, from an interface stand point, looks exactly like the other lines. All the tools, settings and options are the same. On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 2:54 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. Thats because you deploy in Rural America. Try comming to DC, and you'll have a different opinion. When I started 8 years ago, 50% of the available channels at half my cell sites were Toast at Verticle Pol 5.8G. have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. In the earlier years there were many reasons and benefit to Trango over Canopy. But today, that is no longer the case, Canopy evolved. Canopy Advantage is now a well rounded feature rich product. From whatI understood they also have a Horizontal only model now also. Right now, it all boils down to Dual Polarity, and how advantageous that the WISP considers that value, over Canopy's other unique features. To this day, I do not understand why more have not embrased the Dual Pole proposition, unless it was patent intellectual propery issues. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I had the same question. The main difference is that we know before the roll in most cases the frequency and color code and if that ap is blocked by trees we generally have several others in different directions that the tech can switch to on the fly. Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. On the few with problems the call center folks diagnose and fix the problem remotely. Only if the wind has caused a misalignment do we have to do a truck roll. I have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Tom, I agree... dual polarity antennas are nice. I also really understand the noise issue your dealing with... Mesa Networks covered the Denver Metro area where the 2.4GHz and 900MHz bands were killed by Ricochet's Mesh network, and in many places the 5.8GHz band was unusable (we are also unique that we ran into the same 18GHz restrictions you do). 5.3GHz was our point to multipoint frequency of choice, but required much denser sites because of the range limitation. Dual polarity would have been nice... but Moto does now have their H-pol product. The reason I understand why Moto did not choose to go with a dual or tri-band radio had to do with the carrier to noise and cost of filters. Apparently good out of band filters are hard to come by when you do more than one band, and really drive up the cost. So to keep CPE cost low and the carrier to noise low Moto choose to do single band radios. Can't fault the logic, just an engineering decision. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Daniel, My comment was primarilly based on a comparison to OEM boxes like (Mikrotik or any standard 802.11a mac). In my opinion, the Canopy does provide a near equivellent install experience, from the perspective of my previous comments, because it also has surveying ability. Originally, Trango has the benefit of a Dual Freq unit (5.3 and 5.8) built into one unit. Canopy did not. However, that is now a thing of the past for PtMP, since the new FCC rules requirign DFS killed that feature for Trango. Tlinks still have it. But the Trango had always had the one benefit of Dual Polarity antennas. We do jobs all the time where we need to get something done in 24 hours, wtih one tech. It helps to have the onsite tech install the AP side quickly, and then leave it to the office to pickthe best channel or polarity, while he is off to the Client side. Then when he gets to the client side, he can do what ever he needs to do, because the AP side can be changed, without having to go back to the AP site. Sometimes its not always clear what the best option is, until after the client side gets put up and passing traffic. The primary need is to have both polarities available on the AP side. This has always been a limit in 5.8Ghz, becaue 5.8Ghz Sector Dual POl antennas are so expensive. Trango's antenna has always been the secret to their success. Dual pol is becomming much less of a concern, as radios are becoming Tri-Band, as there are more channels to choose from before needing to try alternate polarities. For this reason, its good to see Canopy's newer faster OFDM products developing that potentially could offer the Canopy benefits to an OFDM product line. What I'm wondering iswill Canopy beable to keep the Canopy benefits (such as accurate surveying), or will they lose those features with their conversion to OFDM? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Daniel, My comment was primarilly based on a comparison to OEM boxes like (Mikrotik or any standard 802.11a mac). In my opinion, the Canopy does provide a near equivellent install experience, from the perspective of my previous comments, because it also has surveying ability. Originally, Trango has the benefit of a Dual Freq unit (5.3 and 5.8) built into one unit. Canopy did not. However, that is now a thing of the past for PtMP, since the new FCC rules requirign DFS killed that feature for Trango. Tlinks still have it. But the Trango had always had the one benefit of Dual Polarity antennas. We do jobs all the time where we need to get something done in 24 hours, wtih one tech. It helps to have the onsite tech install the AP side quickly, and then leave it to the office to pickthe best channel or polarity, while he is off to the Client side. Then when he gets to the client side, he can do what ever he needs to do, because the AP side can be changed, without having to go back to the AP site. Sometimes its not always clear what the best option is, until after the client side gets put up and passing traffic. The primary need is to have both polarities available on the AP side. This has always been a limit in 5.8Ghz, becaue 5.8Ghz Sector Dual POl antennas are so expensive. Trango's antenna has always been the secret to their success. Dual pol is becomming much less of a concern, as radios are becoming Tri-Band, as there are more channels to choose from before needing to try alternate polarities. For this reason, its good to see Canopy's newer faster OFDM products developing that potentially could offer the Canopy benefits to an OFDM product line. What I'm wondering iswill Canopy beable to keep the Canopy benefits (such as accurate surveying), or will they lose those features with their conversion to OFDM? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. Thats because you deploy in Rural America. Try comming to DC, and you'll have a different opinion. When I started 8 years ago, 50% of the available channels at half my cell sites were Toast at Verticle Pol 5.8G. have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. In the earlier years there were many reasons and benefit to Trango over Canopy. But today, that is no longer the case, Canopy evolved. Canopy Advantage is now a well rounded feature rich product. From whatI understood they also have a Horizontal only model now also. Right now, it all boils down to Dual Polarity, and how advantageous that the WISP considers that value, over Canopy's other unique features. To this day, I do not understand why more have not embrased the Dual Pole proposition, unless it was patent intellectual propery issues. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I had the same question. The main difference is that we know before the roll in most cases the frequency and color code and if that ap is blocked by trees we generally have several others in different directions that the tech can switch to on the fly. Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. On the few with problems the call center folks diagnose and fix the problem remotely. Only if the wind has caused a misalignment do we have to do a truck roll. I have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I had the same question. The main difference is that we know before the roll in most cases the frequency and color code and if that ap is blocked by trees we generally have several others in different directions that the tech can switch to on the fly. Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. On the few with problems the call center folks diagnose and fix the problem remotely. Only if the wind has caused a misalignment do we have to do a truck roll. I have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
You get a break if you sign up with Trango as an ISP. I have to admit, I like Mikrotik for residential but am leery to use it for business customers. -RickG On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Truck roll: $50 MikroTik CPE: $200 Trango SU: $786 (as of Nov 26 2008 2AM) Repairing your Trango link without having to truck roll: *three times* the price of MikroTik and slow truck roll (no, not priceless - we live in a capitalist economy) Source: http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU On a serious note - what issues were fixed remotely with Trango? The only issue that come to mind are bad radios and repointing dishes on those long 8 mile links after a wind storm. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Travis, Im a little late responding to this thread, but I will put my two cents in. Currently there are products on the market that are shipping that deliver 15-20mb per AP but you wont find much in the wimax arena that will ever deliver more than 50 mb, due to the need to use a small channel width, even with 2X2 mimo. That being said, it doesnt mean that Wimax products are not at a level where you cannot support 250 subscribers per sector. On a legacy wifi product such as VL, Trango, etc the products do not have the benefits of the Wimax mac. At any rate, what you are talking about is the availablity of a Pico product, not a micro or macro. Companies like ours are working on PICO products but expect most to deliver Pico in 802.16e, and later on in the next year and a half or so. - Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com http://www.apertonet.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
It needs a small channel width, or it uses a small channel width because that's the requirement for overseas, so we're stuck with it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:19 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Cc: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Travis, Im a little late responding to this thread, but I will put my two cents in. Currently there are products on the market that are shipping that deliver 15-20mb per AP but you wont find much in the wimax arena that will ever deliver more than 50 mb, due to the need to use a small channel width, even with 2X2 mimo. That being said, it doesnt mean that Wimax products are not at a level where you cannot support 250 subscribers per sector. On a legacy wifi product such as VL, Trango, etc the products do not have the benefits of the Wimax mac. At any rate, what you are talking about is the availablity of a Pico product, not a micro or macro. Companies like ours are working on PICO products but expect most to deliver Pico in 802.16e, and later on in the next year and a half or so. - Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com http://www.apertonet.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Also a small channel width ensures you have a better receive sensitivity. -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? It needs a small channel width, or it uses a small channel width because that's the requirement for overseas, so we're stuck with it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:19 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Cc: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Travis, Im a little late responding to this thread, but I will put my two cents in. Currently there are products on the market that are shipping that deliver 15-20mb per AP but you wont find much in the wimax arena that will ever deliver more than 50 mb, due to the need to use a small channel width, even with 2X2 mimo. That being said, it doesnt mean that Wimax products are not at a level where you cannot support 250 subscribers per sector. On a legacy wifi product such as VL, Trango, etc the products do not have the benefits of the Wimax mac. At any rate, what you are talking about is the availablity of a Pico product, not a micro or macro. Companies like ours are working on PICO products but expect most to deliver Pico in 802.16e, and later on in the next year and a half or so. - Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com http://www.apertonet.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a "smack" against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not "new startups" or "smaller" (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I just can't find it on peoples websites... Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
What if your competitor isn't GPS sync'd? Or what if they want to do 80/20 on the down/uplink and we want to do 50/50? Travis Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using it. It can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync. We are in very tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market. But we never cause each other technical grief. What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 7 mS latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other stuff you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
What's your longest link? I have a Mikrotik ptmp link shooting 23 miles and getting 10Mbps of actual throughput (on a 10mhz channel). Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
never mind. The 400 series sounds great but at $2600 and ap and $600 for an su it's not for use residential providers. Brian Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Canopy 100 and 200 started at those prices too. - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? never mind. The 400 series sounds great but at $2600 and ap and $600 for an su it's not for use residential providers. Brian Gino Villarini wrote: everywere , we have about 5 APs deployed ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Is the 400 series available? And where? 3-dB Networks wrote: I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I didn't make the $70/20mbps claim. $70 represents 1/3rd of canopy's SM price. 20 mbps represents twice a canopy 200 download speed. The claim was 1/3rd the price and twice the speed was a better way to go. - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Doesn't the GPS sync only work if you have the exact same settings as the other systems? Which part is $70/sub? Is that 20.2 Mbps the new series, since they claim 21 mbit throughput? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:17 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using it. It can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync. We are in very tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market. But we never cause each other technical grief. What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 7 mS latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Yeah, I have had to change my mind on Motorola recently. They no longer seem to be pushing for licensed at every turn. No one ever said they didn't make great gear marlon - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Their tech support is clueless when it comes to the Orthogon Spectras. I have 2 radios that are bad but when we tell them what we have they insist that we must trouble shoot the radio over the phone first. That would be OK except one unit is dead and won't light up and the other unit I keep getting told that the computer should be plugged directly into the back of the radio not into the POE. AUGH!! -B- BTW. Do they make those nice reflector kits for the new Canopy radios like the ones I sent you pictures of in NYC. LOL Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:04:52 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Yeah, I have had to change my mind on Motorola recently. They no longer seem to be pushing for licensed at every turn. No one ever said they didn't make great gear marlon - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I've always found the argument that Canopy is a poor steward of the spectrum interesting... Canopy allows channel reuse with GPS sync. Canopy is also more likely to deliver that same sustained throughput in a variety of conditions no 802.11 based system will. If I also started thinking about it I'm sure I could think of gear that uses wider channels (Proxim comes to mind) to deliver less throughput. The problem is roughly modulation. Compare 802.11b to Canopy instead of 802.11G. Motorola's OFDM product, the Canopy 400 series... delivers 21Mbps in a 10MHz channel... I'd say that's pretty efficient. Double that to 20MHz and you will have the Canopy 430 Series at 40Mbps. Advantage Canopy gives you 14Mbps in a 20MHz Channel. So from a innovation standpoint Motorola has taken the same amount of spectrum and doubled the throughput... and from a spectrum use perspective they are now going to deliver near that coveted 54Mbps mark... but still allowing for channel reuse, etc. I think one of the more interesting case studies has been deploying 20 Access Points on one tower in the 5.8GHz Band. Try that with any other system. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
That's not fair :-) I didn't know we were talking Mikrotik. Yes other systems will support the same bandwidth at 1/3 the cost using the same amount of spectrum... But you can't get 150 customers on those AP's, or the same carrier to noise ratio... etc. You get what you pay for (as much as I love Canopy I'll be the first one to admit that if I had my own personal WISP, I might not deploy Canopy everywhere unless I was big like Mesa was where you don't have to have quick ROI on every AP) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other stuff you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
The comment was twice the bandwidth for 1/3rd the cost. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? That's not fair :-) I didn't know we were talking Mikrotik. Yes other systems will support the same bandwidth at 1/3 the cost using the same amount of spectrum... But you can't get 150 customers on those AP's, or the same carrier to noise ratio... etc. You get what you pay for (as much as I love Canopy I'll be the first one to admit that if I had my own personal WISP, I might not deploy Canopy everywhere unless I was big like Mesa was where you don't have to have quick ROI on every AP) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other stuff you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
And that is still the case on a 20mhz channel, I can get 30Mbps of actual throughput on a Mikrotik AP that costs less than $400. Granted right now my biggest AP only has 50 customers, but we are going to push the limits and see how many we can actually handle (we are also only using 10mhz channel sizes). Travis Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: The comment was "twice" the bandwidth for 1/3rd the cost. - Original Message - From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? That's not fair :-) I didn't know we were talking Mikrotik. Yes other systems will support the same bandwidth at 1/3 the cost using the same amount of spectrum... But you can't get 150 customers on those AP's, or the same carrier to noise ratio... etc. You get what you pay for (as much as I love Canopy I'll be the first one to admit that if I had my own personal WISP, I might not deploy Canopy everywhere unless I was big like Mesa was where you don't have to have quick ROI on every AP) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I didn't say Trango... ;) Mikrotik AP's can be built for $400 including your choice of antenna (omni, sector, etc.). That's 1/3 the price of a Canopy AP, and it delivers twice the bandwidth in the same spectrum. So I can install three seperate AP's for the same price as one Canopy AP. Also, CPE's can be built for as little as $160 (we use a higher quality antenna, so we are closer to $180). Compare that with Canopy at $250ish (including PoE and dish). That doesn't even include all the other "stuff" you have to have with Canopy (GPS units, Prizm servers, etc.) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Can you please explain to me how Trango is 1/3 the price of Canopy? Last time I checked with was roughly the same price. Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
trango and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Allthough that is true... Its also important to note Even today, with the other newer more updated options out there When I have a choice. And I need to guarantee the link will work the first trip onsite, and I need to rely on it Trango is still my first choice that I pull off the shelve to install. When the originial product of 8 years ago works so well, its hard for the manufacturer to justify changing it. Still to this day There is not another product on the market that can offer what Trango PtMP offers now from its yr 2000 design. Sure, we are all migrating to higher capacity gear options where we can but its not feasible or necessary everywhere. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I used and loved Trango at the last WISP I owned/operated in West Palm. With my current operation, Tranzeo works well too and I'm starting to really enjoy MikroTik but nothing can replace my Trango! Maybe Ubiquiti. I 'm looking forward to the bullet. I hope it works well. Anyone get an early release? -RickG On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: trango and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Allthough that is true... Its also important to note Even today, with the other newer more updated options out there When I have a choice. And I need to guarantee the link will work the first trip onsite, and I need to rely on it Trango is still my first choice that I pull off the shelve to install. When the originial product of 8 years ago works so well, its hard for the manufacturer to justify changing it. Still to this day There is not another product on the market that can offer what Trango PtMP offers now from its yr 2000 design. Sure, we are all migrating to higher capacity gear options where we can but its not feasible or necessary everywhere. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Truck roll: $50 MikroTik CPE: $200 Trango SU: $786 (as of Nov 26 2008 2AM) Repairing your Trango link without having to truck roll: *three times* the price of MikroTik and slow truck roll (no, not priceless - we live in a capitalist economy) Source: http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU On a serious note - what issues were fixed remotely with Trango? The only issue that come to mind are bad radios and repointing dishes on those long 8 mile links after a wind storm. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Rick, I got to get my hands on a couple of Bullets this past week. They work as expected with no real huge differences over the NS5s and PS5, operationally. I still prefer the PowerStations as clients personally because of the all in one package with a nice coupled antenna. I have still heard and seen problems with the SMA ext. connector on the NS5, so this definitely resolves that issue! I think it is a great idea and the price point is exceptional. I see it as more of an AP application when combined with sectorized antennas or as a CPE with high gain directionals. I didn't get to test the functionality of software (like the IPSEC VPN that was requested) but I did see the same type of patterns as with the other Ubiquiti AirOS platforms, for what its worth. These things are gonna be great. -drew On 11/26/08 12:48 AM, RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I used and loved Trango at the last WISP I owned/operated in West Palm. With my current operation, Tranzeo works well too and I'm starting to really enjoy MikroTik but nothing can replace my Trango! Maybe Ubiquiti. I 'm looking forward to the bullet. I hope it works well. Anyone get an early release? -RickG On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: trango and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Allthough that is true... Its also important to note Even today, with the other newer more updated options out there When I have a choice. And I need to guarantee the link will work the first trip onsite, and I need to rely on it Trango is still my first choice that I pull off the shelve to install. When the originial product of 8 years ago works so well, its hard for the manufacturer to justify changing it. Still to this day There is not another product on the market that can offer what Trango PtMP offers now from its yr 2000 design. Sure, we are all migrating to higher capacity gear options where we can but its not feasible or necessary everywhere. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I'd argue... why are you buying a 5830SU? There are some rare cases its needed, for example to intergrate with a 32db long range dish. But we stopped using those long ago. The 5580 w/ behive antrenna outperforms the 5830, and sub $300. And the new DSS dish for the 5580, is really cool, with the new adjustments, to allow any direction alignment without scewing polarity. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Truck roll: $50 MikroTik CPE: $200 Trango SU: $786 (as of Nov 26 2008 2AM) Repairing your Trango link without having to truck roll: *three times* the price of MikroTik and slow truck roll (no, not priceless - we live in a capitalist economy) Source: http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU On a serious note - what issues were fixed remotely with Trango? The only issue that come to mind are bad radios and repointing dishes on those long 8 mile links after a wind storm. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite
[WISPA] WiMax delays?
I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the "higher end" is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just "us". The "big boys" have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to "buy the market". And too many of "us" have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Where do you rate Ubiquity Nanostations or the Bullet? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
My guess is yes on the WiMAX question. Because it was a buzz word, they could get investment dollars if you mentioned WiMAX. How many people here are buying WiMAX because it's the new and fancy? WiMAX isn't necessarily all that bad if they offered 20 MHz channels for half the price. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
On the same level as Mikrotik... maybe just slightly below (because of the lack of a proprietary protocol with polling like Nstreme), but above Linksys, etc. Travis Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Where do you rate Ubiquity Nanostations or the Bullet? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Josh, I think this was the point. The Trango 5800 series (the 5830 radio) was the top of the line product when it first came out (2001 or 2002 I think). There was nothing else on the market (including Canopy) when Trango first started shipping this product. However, nothing has been done with it since then. They made two failed attempts, and have now given up on a successor to the product line. Travis Microserv Josh Luthman wrote: I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace", but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is better" mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Butch, As much as I like Mikrotik (I have been using it for ptp backhauls for over 4 years now) and recently ptmp for customers, the ptmp is not on the same level as Canopy or Trango. Having a hardware based scheduler is something that just can not be done in software. The latest improvement did make a huge difference, but it still doesn't compare to a Trango AP that can be fully loaded (2.4ghz, 126 subs, 5Mbps total capacity) and deliver 4ms latency to every single subscriber. :) Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace", but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is better" mindframe. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace", but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is better" mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
The very best reason to use canopy is because the competitors are using it. It can peacefully coexist with other systems due to gps sync. We are in very tight quarters with a fierce competitor in one very small market. But we never cause each other technical grief. What other product can give my customers 20.2 Mbps (including guaranteed 7 mS latency with 130 subs on an AP?) for $70/sub? - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Chuck, We don't use Canopy just because my competitors are using it. And really, any more, the customer doesn't care HOW the bandwidth gets delivered. So why not use a product that can deliver twice the bandwidth for 1/3 the price? ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little more to deploy but you earn it back with a fixed guaranteed latency, high priority for voip, 10 mbps burst and many other features that keep the customer happy and retained. Come to AF09 and see how Motorola markets to the smaller WISPS. Moreover their new 430 line delivers better performance for the price than Redline or Alvarion. And they are still innovating. While I will admit I have a vested interest in seeing Canopy continue to have legs, I don't think my opinions are unfounded. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. I picked it entirely by chance. It was either Canopy or Proxim. I am glad I picked what I picked. Many others picked Trango. They are able to make it work and earn money. I know of some folks that abandoned Trango for Canopy. Don't personally know anyone who went the other way but I am sure that someone will educated me to that situation as soon as I press the send button. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
A lot of folks have a philisophical problem adopting a product that seems to have been designed to cause interference to other equipment trying to share the same band. Tom S. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
OK, ouch, not to get OT here, but have you looked at Samsung? Have you looked at the consumer ratings between the two? Only thing Sony got over them was in the highest end model's, and again this is like buying Alvarion or Canopy to UBQT as far as price is concerned. I may be blind, but I spent 3 hours watching both of them before I decided on my LCD. I could be a weirdo too, lol. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:51:37 -0500 I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers. Better, yet, they are working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is available today. But their primary market isn't the normal WISP. They service companies that are better funded, which typically means larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant. It wasn't intended to do that. I really just wish our industry as a whole would get out of the hole that we have dug with the cheaper is better mindframe. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: If you hang out over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] you will find more than a hundred WISPs, many of them very small operations from 100-1000 subscribers that are 100% canopy. And generally speaking they are kicking butt and taking names in their markets. I disagree that Canopy is not marketed to the smaller WISPS. It costs a little Perhaps I stated my point in the wrong way. It would be more accurate to say that Canopy WISPs tend to be larger. This was not a smack against Canopy. It was, actually, a compliment to their ability to do the things they do in a junk spectrum like the 2.4GHz band. As for their focused marketing toward smaller WISPs or not, I can only say that if you took a poll of WISPs of all sizes, you'd find more larger WISPs using it than the smaller guys. So if it's a matter of focus from their marketing department or not, I'd have to say that their take rate is better among those that are not new startups or smaller (how you define those 2 groups may be different than my definition). And, for what it's worth, I AM on the Moto list. ;-) And they are still innovating. If you reread my post, this is exactly what I was complimenting them about. It is funny how the Canopy product line is so polarizing in this industry. There are many things that Canopy does well. There are some things that they do not. Until recently, Motorola was making comments to the FCC that could not be interpreted in any way other than they did not like unlicensed broadband. You can read their older comments (as recently as 2-3 years ago) and reach your own decisions about that. This company policy seems to have changed. Specifically, their comments on TVWS seemed to be very much on the side of unlicensed use. At least some of them did. I didn't read all of their comments. As for the technology, Canopy has been a poor steward of the spectrum. At least in the eyes of many other WISPs. Their system works very well, but used a lot of spectrum (more than 802.11x) and didn't deliver equivalent throughput. This, too, has changed somewhat and seems to be a work in progress. Another reason many folks are not happy with Canopy is the reality that you cannot co-exist with them. While this is not a bad thing for Canopy users, anyone else is stuck with their wider channels and difficult to avoid noise. I don't understand human psychology well enough to even begin to explain why this is such a polarizing topic. Cognitive dissonance seems to come into play. Some of the reasons are mentioned above. I am sure other reasons exist. Personally, I don't agree with all the reasoning, but some of it I do. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
PureWave Aperto Vecima Three off the top of my head. -d On 11/24/08 10:32 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
