Re: [WSG] NoScript Help Please!

[Michael Cordover]

Hey,

My suggestion would be



And attaching the onclick event to  with return false; to stop it
executing when there is javascript.

The alternative is to have an onload function that puts the image
outside the  and deletes the  element.

Both of these will degrade gracefully without needing that ugly 

Regards,

Michael

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 4:11 PM, IceKat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm totally hoping that someone can help me with this. I'm trying to use
> noscript tags but I CANNOT get my page to validate. Below is the section
> which is giving me trouble. Please can someone tell me what the trouble is.
>
> 
>  />
>
> I know it looks odd but this version does exactly what I need. However it
> refuses to validate. I use XHTML 1.0 strict and do not want to step down to
> transitional. Unless someone can tell me how to give javascript priority
> then I need to work this out because if I put the link in on it's own it
> does the javascript part and then does the link and I only want the link to
> be activated if javascript is turned off.
>
> Please someone help. I'm going crazy!
>
> IceKat.
>

-- 
http://mine.mjec.net/


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[WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

[tee]

When a customer add a product to cart, which way is more user- 
friendly? Be redirect to 'my cart' page, or stay at the same page?


Right now Magento directs it to checkout page (p/s. this is the only  
eCommerce software I ever use apart from the paypal BIN button so I  
have no comparison and don't know how other carts do it), it makes  
sense to me as a customer because  this is how I expect it to be : add  
cart, process to checkout. I don't want one more click to do the  
checkout. But client thinks otherwise, he wants no redirect as he  
wants people continue shopping. Also makes sense too, though not for  
my habit, but I have learned that I don't make sites for myself :-)


I hope this is ON topic as I view it as a usability issue.

Thanks!

tee


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Re: [WSG] global site list...

[bill kroon]

could it be split into choosing a continent then a country? might help
to make a it bit less busy?


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[WSG] NoScript Help Please!

[IceKat]

Hi,

I'm totally hoping that someone can help me with this. I'm trying to use
noscript tags but I CANNOT get my page to validate. Below is the section
which is giving me trouble. Please can someone tell me what the trouble is.




I know it looks odd but this version does exactly what I need. However it
refuses to validate. I use XHTML 1.0 strict and do not want to step down to
transitional. Unless someone can tell me how to give javascript priority
then I need to work this out because if I put the link in on it's own it
does the javascript part and then does the link and I only want the link to
be activated if javascript is turned off.

Please someone help. I'm going crazy!

IceKat.


-- 
Nothing is impossible, the impossible just takes longer.


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[WSG] global site list...

[Naveen Bhaskar]

hi ,
anybody can suggest me a best way to show global site links in one page.. I
have around 70 countries to list out.
-- 
navii
-
thanks and regards
Naveen Bhaskar Menon


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Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes

[Jason Ray]

This question was asked less a week ago, here was my reply:

The W3C has an example of the use of the cite and quote elements here:
http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/xhtml2/spec-examples/mod-text/cite
-ex01.xhtml

Or you can read all about quotations here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2

You could avoid the blockquote and use a paragraph depending on the length
of the quoted text. Only use the q element if it is an inline quote (i.e., a
short quote). If you want a lengthy quote, use the blockquote.

An inline quote example:



http://www.comany-url.com";>Company XYZ says You are the best!



A block level quote example (as Mike indicated above):




I have a lot of things to say about this guy. He's done a really great
job! http://www.company-url.com";>--- Company XYZ




You can also add an anchor around the company name if you want to link to
their website. I don't believe the cite *attribute* (as opposed to
*element*or 'tag') is compulsory if you're not referring to an online
source, but I'm
not entirely certain.

Jason

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 2:15 AM, Rob Enslin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That's pretty clear.
>
> Many thanks Robert, David and Rahul.
>
> 2008/5/20 Rahul Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> On 20-May-08, at 8:43 PM, Rob Enslin wrote:
>>
>>  Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to
>>> use with quotes?
>>>
>>
>> The most appropriate tag to use is the  element. I would mark
>> up your content like so:
>>
>> 
>>  LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7
>> new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us
>> showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!
>>  TECHNOGYM UK LTD
>> 
>>
>>  
>>>
>>
>> The  element should be used for "[...] short quotations (inline
>> content) that don't require paragraph breaks." [1].
>>
>>  
>>>
>>
>> The cite element (or citation) is used to specify the source of the quote,
>> and to use it to mark up a quote would be semantically incorrect. [2]
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>  - Rahul.
>>
>> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2
>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
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>
>
> --
> Rob Enslin
> http://enslin.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup

[Jason Grant]

Hi Julian,

 is for emphasis. I am on your side on that one.
s are for separating components/sections of a page and can be
semantically very strong, especially when given a meaningful class or id
name (e.g. header, footer, contacts, product, etc.)
 however is quite specifically defined in W3C documentation as
being used for grouping ' elements', hence it is fairly conclusive in
my mind that using  elsewhere is an abuse of the standard, even
though it passes validation.

As responsible and sensible developers I think we ought to leverage what has
already been (pretty well) defined in the official documentation from W3C
and utilise the tags we have available to us as best we can.

We can work further on trying to come up with better mechanisms for handling
some other matters for which we feel current HTML is insufficient. I am
hoping that XHTML2.0/HTML5 will help with that, although at the moment it is
not looking too promising.

That's it for now from me.

Your English is very good and your points are well made.

Regards,

Jason
www.flexewebs.com

On 5/20/08, Julián Landerreche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> @Jason and @Svip quoted:
>
> Svip wrote:
>
> I do disagree with Julián's approach.  Also, if I may add, strong
>> should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN
>> with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and
>> only in a case where you have a "strong" point to make, and not a
>> replacement for making bold text.
>
>
> I'm *not* using it as a replacing for making bold text.
> I use  to make the text (the content of the structural markup)
> strong (emphasized).
> Have you take a look at NetRelations.se [1] source (or better, disable the
> CSS to see the structural markup in action).
>
> In fact, in my example, this  element is child of a block element
> (), so it's not only semantic (see below paragraph) but also valid [2]
> (inline element validate as child of a block element and sibling of another
> one).
>
> Back to the *semantics* of this:
> main navigation //...
>
> I repeat: that's semantic, for me: this text is strong, it's important, and
> no, it's not a paragraph or a heading (we could disagree).
>
> Yes, it would not be the most perfect semantic out there, but "perfect"
> semantics aren't achievable by current XHTML elements . Not everything out
> there fits perfect on being a  paragraph, or a heading, or an unordered list
> or whatever (lets not talk about the semantics of div and span).
> I agree, web pages are documents, web pages should look as documents and
> should make sense with/without CSS enabled (dont' forget that CSS "disabled"
> is, in fact, browser default CSS, and not a totally reseted CSS).
> So, if reading a site with CSS "disabled" (default browser CSS), the
> semantics are given to us (sighted people) by "visual" formatting of
> elements (headings are bold, have bigger size, blockquotes are indented,
> etc), and structural mark-up adds semantic help for people with are visual
> impaired (but not blind), cognitive disabilities, or even, people using a
> device with no support for CSS.
> So, if reading a site with a screen reader, semantics are given by speech
> (pronunciation and/or help speech), and in consequence, a text marked by
> strong will be read with emphasis. Then, the structural markup (the
> ) on my example has its semantics, it's important to be read loud.
> Again, no, it's not a heading (but could be), nor a paragraph (does every
> chunck of text out there on the web "deserve" to be a paragraph, if it isn't
> a heading nor a list)?
>
> Jason wrote:
>
> Needless to say that your application should progressively 
> enhancethrough the 
> presentation layers.
>>  the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images,
>> css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each
>> new piece of technology to it.
>>
>
> Adding structural markup is, in fact, progressive enhancement, as the
> research [3] I linked on the first post.
> The question here is: *how to markup the structural markup? which is the
> best way?*
> - using headings, as, for example, in 456bereastreet [4] ?
> - using , as, for example, NetRelations.se [1] ?
> - using the + approach as suggested in this thread?
>
> About the last one. Yes, the W3C tells about using  and 
> for adding structure to forms. So, case closed?
> It doesn't say anywhere (aparently) not to use them outside  and
> this, combined with the fact that both tags validates being outside, *this
> make it possible to rethink its semantics*.
>
> Of course, a research on accessibility/usability regarding using fieldsets
> and legends for structural markup should be done before claiming it hurts
> the user experience.
> Do you have facts about this affecting visitors negatively?
>
> Progressive enhancement is not just for sighted people. Accessibility can
> and should be enhanced if possible. Id

Re: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5

[Felix Miata]

On 2008/05/21 07:43 (GMT+1000) Korny Sietsma apparently typed:

> Sorry, I didn't mean "if I had FF3 running" - I had it *installed* but not
> running. And maybe I could have made it work, but I was under time
> pressure. I just installed FF2 through Ubuntu's standard "apt" system, and
> I'd hoped that it would be configured to install it completely 
> independently.

> When I have more time I'll try again - but running a beta browser, with an
> alpha of FireBug, I wasn't really very surprised to have stability issues.
> Maybe I should have been.

With Linux distros, except in unusual circumstances, and assuming more than
one version exists to choose from, you have to choose only one version of an
application to install through the package management system. Other versions
must be installed outside the normal package management system.

With Mozilla products, it's usually best to install the stable version via
package management, then use bzip or whatever is required of the available
development or pre-release version in question to place in your $HOME tree or
/usr/local tree.

If you had a problem installing a mozilla.org build, odds are you didn't have
proper deps installed, probably the compat libstdc++5 library, or whatever
the Debian system calls it, or a new enough pango.

Another option if you want FF3 as your main (via package management) but to
keep FF2 for testing is to use Epiphany in lieu of FF2. Plans have been made
to switch Epiphany from Gecko to Webkit, but I don't think that will happen
before FF2 has had time to nearly die.

Oh, and FF3rc1 was out 3 days ago. If Debian sources now have the v3rc
available, it may be time to think about instead making it your normal, and
installing the mozilla.org release of FF 2.0.0.14 in $HOME or /usr/local.
-- 
". . . . in everything, do to others what you would
have them do to you . . . ."   Matthew 7:12 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup

[Julián Landerreche]

@Jason and @Svip quoted:

Svip wrote:

I do disagree with Julián's approach.  Also, if I may add, strong
> should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN
> with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and
> only in a case where you have a "strong" point to make, and not a
> replacement for making bold text.


I'm *not* using it as a replacing for making bold text.
I use  to make the text (the content of the structural markup)
strong (emphasized).
Have you take a look at NetRelations.se [1] source (or better, disable the
CSS to see the structural markup in action).

In fact, in my example, this  element is child of a block element
(), so it's not only semantic (see below paragraph) but also valid [2]
(inline element validate as child of a block element and sibling of another
one).

Back to the *semantics* of this:
main navigation //...

I repeat: that's semantic, for me: this text is strong, it's important, and
no, it's not a paragraph or a heading (we could disagree).

Yes, it would not be the most perfect semantic out there, but "perfect"
semantics aren't achievable by current XHTML elements . Not everything out
there fits perfect on being a  paragraph, or a heading, or an unordered list
or whatever (lets not talk about the semantics of div and span).
I agree, web pages are documents, web pages should look as documents and
should make sense with/without CSS enabled (dont' forget that CSS "disabled"
is, in fact, browser default CSS, and not a totally reseted CSS).
So, if reading a site with CSS "disabled" (default browser CSS), the
semantics are given to us (sighted people) by "visual" formatting of
elements (headings are bold, have bigger size, blockquotes are indented,
etc), and structural mark-up adds semantic help for people with are visual
impaired (but not blind), cognitive disabilities, or even, people using a
device with no support for CSS.
So, if reading a site with a screen reader, semantics are given by speech
(pronunciation and/or help speech), and in consequence, a text marked by
strong will be read with emphasis. Then, the structural markup (the
) on my example has its semantics, it's important to be read loud.
Again, no, it's not a heading (but could be), nor a paragraph (does every
chunck of text out there on the web "deserve" to be a paragraph, if it isn't
a heading nor a list)?

Jason wrote:

Needless to say that your application should progressively
enhancethrough
the presentation layers.
> the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images,
> css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each
> new piece of technology to it.
>

Adding structural markup is, in fact, progressive enhancement, as the
research [3] I linked on the first post.
The question here is: *how to markup the structural markup? which is the
best way?*
- using headings, as, for example, in 456bereastreet [4] ?
- using , as, for example, NetRelations.se [1] ?
- using the + approach as suggested in this thread?

About the last one. Yes, the W3C tells about using  and 
for adding structure to forms. So, case closed?
It doesn't say anywhere (aparently) not to use them outside  and this,
combined with the fact that both tags validates being outside, *this make it
possible to rethink its semantics*.

Of course, a research on accessibility/usability regarding using fieldsets
and legends for structural markup should be done before claiming it hurts
the user experience.
Do you have facts about this affecting visitors negatively?

Progressive enhancement is not just for sighted people. Accessibility can
and should be enhanced if possible. Ideally, accessibility should be good
(if not perfect) since the moment you start building a site, and not as an
"layer of enhancement" added later, if  there is time.

Thanks for your replies (and excuse my english).


[1] http://www.netrelations.se
[2] http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg30004.html
[3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm
[4] http://www.456bereastreet.com


> >
> > On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and
> >> haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2].
> >>
> >> The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes
> >> [3].
> >> It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to
> >> invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in
> XHTML.
> >>
> >> Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a
> heading
> >> () even just a simple  class="structural">,
> >> and if necessary, hide them by CSS
> >> I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com.
> >>
> >> Example:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Main navigation 
> >> 
> >> Section 1
> >> Section 2
> >> Section 3
> >> 
> 

Re: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5

[Korny Sietsma]

Sorry, I didn't mean "if I had FF3 running" - I had it *installed* but
not running.
And maybe I could have made it work, but I was under time pressure. I
just installed FF2 through Ubuntu's standard "apt" system, and I'd
hoped that it would be configured to install it completely
independently.

When I have more time I'll try again - but running a beta browser,
with an alpha of FireBug, I wasn't really very surprised to have
stability issues.  Maybe I should have been.

As for vmware - I guess I'm used to it, I already use vmware to test
different versions of ie, so adding Firefox to one of them isn't a
biggie.

- Korny

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Felix Miata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2008/05/20 18:27 (GMT+1000) Korny Sietsma apparently typed:
>
>> I have had problems running FF2 on a machine also running FF3 -
>> specifically, and fatally for me, FireBug wouldn't install cleanly in
>> FF2 if I had FF3 running.
>
> Did you ever think to try closing the other long enough to get it to install?
> Have you been trying to use the same profile for multiple versions? Have you
> tried virgin profiles? Visit irc://moznet/#firefox or
> irc://moznet/#mozillazine or irc://moznet/#seamonkey and people who know what
> it takes will help you get it going.
>
>> I'd load FF3 in a vmware image, or maybe test it with an Ubuntu 8.04 live CD.
>
> Absolutely unnecessary gross overkill.
>
>> Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more
>> stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain
>> - at least for my configuration!
>
> I've been running various flavors of alpha & beta Gecko products simultaneous
> with release versions of same cross-platform (Linux, OS/2 & Win; adding OS X
> recently) for over 7 years. If you can't get it to work routinely, you're not
> correctly following directions, or have a general system problem. Using
> multiple versions does require the MOZ_NO_REMOTE=1 environment variable, or
> equivalent command line option, plus multiple profiles.
>
> Realize that SeaMonkey and Firefox are just different faces on the same
> rendering engine, so you can take the easy way out and just run the devel
> version of one and the release version of the other if following the multiple
> version instructions is somehow not doable for you.
> --
> ". . . . in everything, do to others what you would
> have them do to you . . . ."   Matthew 7:12 NIV
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>
>
> ***
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>



-- 
Kornelis Sietsma korny at my surname dot com
kornys at gmail dot com on google chat -- kornys on skype
"we do what we must, because we can"


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Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup

[Jason Grant]

Needless to say that your application should progressively
enhancethrough
the presentation layers.
So, irrespective of what technology (or mix of technologies) you are using,
the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images, css,
javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each new
piece of technology to it.
The basics always stay the same, hence  ought to be inside a
 as your page ought to work with JavaScript turned off.
Regards,
Jason
www.flexewebs.com

On 5/20/08, Svip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What if your fieldset is intended for an AJAX application?  And thus
> will not require a form (as your data is not sent through the form,
> but is picked up by javascript)?  Indeed, my opinion is that a
> fieldset should only contain form elements, but not necessarily be
> inside a form tag.
>
> I do disagree with Julián's approach.  Also, if I may add, strong
> should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN
> with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and
> only in a case where you have a "strong" point to make, and not a
> replacement for making bold text.
>
> Regards,
> Svip
>
> 2008/5/20 Jason Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Hello Julian,
> >
> > If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C
> > specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET
> >
> > It is pretty clear to me there that  element exists for the
> > purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes.
> It
> > aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms.
> >
> > Hence I would strongly argue that  should not be used outside a
> >  and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jason
> > www.flexewebs.com
> > www.flexewebs.wordpress.com
> > www.twitter.com/flexewebs
> > www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
>
> >> A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and
> >> haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2].
> >>
> >> The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes
> >> [3].
> >> It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to
> >> invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in
> XHTML.
> >>
> >> Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a
> heading
> >> () even just a simple  class="structural">,
> >> and if necessary, hide them by CSS
> >> I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com.
> >>
> >> Example:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Main navigation 
> >> 
> >> Section 1
> >> Section 2
> >> Section 3
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Main navigation
> >> 
> >> Section 1
> >> Section 2
> >> Section 3
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so,
> >> it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense.
> >>
> >> 
> >> You can do the following
> >> 
> >> Create
> >> Delete
> >> Edit
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be
> difficult
> >> to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none;
> although
> >> using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility,
> but
> >> that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers):
> >>
> >> 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a
> >> form?
> >> 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural
> >> labels enhance accessibility)?
> >> 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >> Julián.
> >>
> >> [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/
> >> [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928
> >> [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ***
> >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup

[Svip]

What if your fieldset is intended for an AJAX application?  And thus
will not require a form (as your data is not sent through the form,
but is picked up by javascript)?  Indeed, my opinion is that a
fieldset should only contain form elements, but not necessarily be
inside a form tag.

I do disagree with Julián's approach.  Also, if I may add, strong
should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN
with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and
only in a case where you have a "strong" point to make, and not a
replacement for making bold text.

Regards,
Svip

2008/5/20 Jason Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hello Julian,
>
> If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C
> specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET
>
> It is pretty clear to me there that  element exists for the
> purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes. It
> aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms.
>
> Hence I would strongly argue that  should not be used outside a
>  and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jason
> www.flexewebs.com
> www.flexewebs.wordpress.com
> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
> www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395
>
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and
>> haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2].
>>
>> The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes
>> [3].
>> It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to
>> invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML.
>>
>> Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading
>> () even just a simple ,
>> and if necessary, hide them by CSS
>> I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> 
>> Main navigation 
>> 
>> Section 1
>> Section 2
>> Section 3
>> 
>> 
>>
>> So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this:
>>
>> 
>> Main navigation
>> 
>> Section 1
>> Section 2
>> Section 3
>> 
>> 
>>
>> Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so,
>> it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense.
>>
>> 
>> You can do the following
>> 
>> Create
>> Delete
>> Edit
>> 
>> 
>>
>> Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult
>> to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although
>> using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but
>> that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers):
>>
>> 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a
>> form?
>> 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural
>> labels enhance accessibility)?
>> 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this?
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Julián.
>>
>> [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/
>> [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928
>> [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup

[Jason Grant]

Hello Julian,

If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C
specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET

It is pretty clear to me there that  element exists for the
purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes. It
aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms.

Hence I would strongly argue that  should not be used outside a
 and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jason
www.flexewebs.com
www.flexewebs.wordpress.com
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395


On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and
> haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2].
>
> The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3].
>
> It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to
> invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML.
>
> Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading
> () even just a simple  class="structural">, and if necessary, hide them by CSS
> I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com.
>
> Example:
>
> 
> Main navigation 
> 
> Section 1
> Section 2
> Section 3
> 
> 
>
> So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this:
>
> 
> Main navigation
> 
> Section 1
> Section 2
> Section 3
>  
>  
>
> Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so,
> it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense.
>
> 
> You can do the following
> 
> Create
> Delete
> Edit
>  
>  
>
>
> Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult
> to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although
> using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but
> that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers):
>
> 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a
> form?
> 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural
> labels enhance accessibility)?
> 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this?
>
> Thanks.
> Julián.
>
> [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/
> [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928
> [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
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[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup

[Julián Landerreche]

A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and
haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2].

The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3].
It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to
invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML.

Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading
() even just a simple ,
and if necessary, hide them by CSS
I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com.

Example:


Main navigation 

Section 1
Section 2
Section 3



So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this:


Main navigation

Section 1
Section 2
Section 3
 
 

Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's
just another navigation) where it could make even more sense.


You can do the following

Create
Delete
Edit
 
 


Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to
style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although
using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but
that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers):

1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form?
2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural
labels enhance accessibility)?
3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this?

Thanks.
Julián.

[1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/
[2] http://drupal.org/node/233928
[3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm


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Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes

[Rob Enslin]

That's pretty clear.

Many thanks Robert, David and Rahul.

2008/5/20 Rahul Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 20-May-08, at 8:43 PM, Rob Enslin wrote:
>
>  Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to
>> use with quotes?
>>
>
> The most appropriate tag to use is the  element. I would mark
> up your content like so:
>
> 
>  LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new
> products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase
> our products and present our latest solutions to the market!
>  TECHNOGYM UK LTD
> 
>
>  
>>
>
> The  element should be used for "[...] short quotations (inline content)
> that don't require paragraph breaks." [1].
>
>  
>>
>
> The cite element (or citation) is used to specify the source of the quote,
> and to use it to mark up a quote would be semantically incorrect. [2]
>
>
> Best,
>  - Rahul.
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1
>
>
>
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>


-- 
Rob Enslin
http://enslin.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes

[Rahul Gonsalves]

On 20-May-08, at 8:43 PM, Rob Enslin wrote:

Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate  
tag to use with quotes?


The most appropriate tag to use is the  element. I would  
mark up your content like so:



  LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an  
exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great  
event to help us showcase our products and present our latest  
solutions to the market!

  TECHNOGYM UK LTD






The  element should be used for "[...] short quotations (inline  
content) that don't require paragraph breaks." [1].






The cite element (or citation) is used to specify the source of the  
quote, and to use it to mark up a quote would be semantically  
incorrect. [2]



Best,
 - Rahul.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1


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Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes

[David Dorward]

On 20 May 2008, at 16:13, Rob Enslin wrote:

Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate  
tag to use with quotes? These are actual comments made by folk  
during a show.


You are quoting paragraphs, use blockquote.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes

[Robert O'Rourke]

Rob Enslin wrote:
Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag 
to use with quotes? These are actual comments made by folk during a show.


For example:



LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an 
exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great 
event to help us showcase our products and present our latest 
solutions to the market!

TECHNOGYM UK LTD

or



LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an 
exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great 
event to help us showcase our products and present our latest 
solutions to the market!

TECHNOGYM UK LTD

Any help most appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob 


Hi Rob,

In this case I'd use the  element personally eg.


   
  LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 
7 new products which our...

   
   TECHNOGYM UK LTD


Alternatively use  to wrap the quote itself, and  to mark up 
the source of the quote.


The spec has some more examples: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2


Regards,
another Rob


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[WSG] Tag for quotes

[Rob Enslin]

Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to use
with quotes? These are actual comments made by folk during a show.

For example:



LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7
new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us
showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!
TECHNOGYM UK LTD

or



LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7
new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us
showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the
market!
TECHNOGYM UK LTD

Any help most appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob


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Re: [WSG] PHP Standards

[Jason Pruim]

Hey Ian,

Sorry for coming in late in this thread, but I would like to recommend  
the php.net site and their mailing lists as well. I am a subscriber to  
a few of their lists and am just learning the language, but the people  
who post to the php-general list are some of the most knowledgeable  
people I have run across.


There are a few of the core programmers that post to that list as  
well. I would highly recommend joining, and watching the list for a  
few days. Or jump right in and start working on a project. The most  
simple form of which is a simple "Hello world!" script. Do something  
like this:




Just something that you could play with :)


On May 20, 2008, at 5:35 AM, Ian Chamberlain wrote:


Thanks for all the tips folks, very useful.

In response to Michael, I have just escaped the large corporate,  
global

enterprise world that seems to fund much of the IT work done and in my
experience most such organisations are only just now waking up to the
concept and benefits of open source.

My ex-organisation for example tended to code either in ASP or .NET  
for

small / medium scale or some flavour of Java for portals and heavy
transaction stuff so I had no experience or libraries of PHP.

Upon my excape, pausing only to don my hopelessly optimistic hat I  
went
looking for a PHP site; something similar to the sites we all use  
that show
how semantic mark-up should be used; or how good quality CSS can  
make site

look good.

Even poor old JavaScript thanks to gentlemen ( I use the word  
carelessly)
like Jeremy Keith are busy helping our communities to play nicely  
with the

DOM; which left just the "back-end".

The problem is that right now unless we have one or two clearly  
signposted
places where people can learn to do the right thing, young new  
programmers
or  even old f***s like me will get what help they can from the net  
and
libraries, as I am sure you may have noticed such sites, books and  
courses

are not always of the highest quality.

Ian

(Freelancing with a grin - ex Head Of Web Strategy BT Global Services)




- Original Message -
From: "Michael Horowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] PHP Standards


I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what  
is

floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good
programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE

Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or  
J2EE?


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Designer wrote:
I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there  
are

many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just
validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php.
Then, you check for best practice too . . .

Bob



Ian Chamberlain wrote:

Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP;
any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even
application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum
standard please.

I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what
is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good
programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE.

Thanks

Ian


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--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424-9337
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [WSG] PHP Standards

[Ian Chamberlain]

Thanks for all the tips folks, very useful.

In response to Michael, I have just escaped the large corporate, global 
enterprise world that seems to fund much of the IT work done and in my 
experience most such organisations are only just now waking up to the 
concept and benefits of open source.

My ex-organisation for example tended to code either in ASP or .NET for 
small / medium scale or some flavour of Java for portals and heavy 
transaction stuff so I had no experience or libraries of PHP.

Upon my excape, pausing only to don my hopelessly optimistic hat I went 
looking for a PHP site; something similar to the sites we all use that show 
how semantic mark-up should be used; or how good quality CSS can make site 
look good.

Even poor old JavaScript thanks to gentlemen ( I use the word carelessly) 
like Jeremy Keith are busy helping our communities to play nicely with the 
DOM; which left just the "back-end".

The problem is that right now unless we have one or two clearly signposted 
places where people can learn to do the right thing, young new programmers 
or  even old f***s like me will get what help they can from the net and 
libraries, as I am sure you may have noticed such sites, books and courses 
are not always of the highest quality.

Ian

(Freelancing with a grin - ex Head Of Web Strategy BT Global Services)




- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Horowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] PHP Standards


I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is
floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good
programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE

Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or J2EE?

Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Designer wrote:
> I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are
> many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just
> validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php.
> Then, you check for best practice too . . .
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> Ian Chamberlain wrote:
>> Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP;
>> any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even
>> application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum
>> standard please.
>>
>> I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what
>> is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good
>> programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5

[Felix Miata]

On 2008/05/20 18:27 (GMT+1000) Korny Sietsma apparently typed:

> I have had problems running FF2 on a machine also running FF3 -
> specifically, and fatally for me, FireBug wouldn't install cleanly in
> FF2 if I had FF3 running.

Did you ever think to try closing the other long enough to get it to install?
Have you been trying to use the same profile for multiple versions? Have you
tried virgin profiles? Visit irc://moznet/#firefox or
irc://moznet/#mozillazine or irc://moznet/#seamonkey and people who know what
it takes will help you get it going.

> I'd load FF3 in a vmware image, or maybe test it with an Ubuntu 8.04 live CD.

Absolutely unnecessary gross overkill.

> Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more
> stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain
> - at least for my configuration!

I've been running various flavors of alpha & beta Gecko products simultaneous
with release versions of same cross-platform (Linux, OS/2 & Win; adding OS X
recently) for over 7 years. If you can't get it to work routinely, you're not
correctly following directions, or have a general system problem. Using
multiple versions does require the MOZ_NO_REMOTE=1 environment variable, or
equivalent command line option, plus multiple profiles.

Realize that SeaMonkey and Firefox are just different faces on the same
rendering engine, so you can take the easy way out and just run the devel
version of one and the release version of the other if following the multiple
version instructions is somehow not doable for you.
-- 
". . . . in everything, do to others what you would
have them do to you . . . ."   Matthew 7:12 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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RE: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5

[Patrick Lauke]

> Korny Sietsma

> Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more
> stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain
> - at least for my configuration!

Beta5 and RC1 have been rock-solid on my systems (WinXP). And, as far as I 
understand, RC1 is fairly feature complete (with regards to its rendering 
engine), unless some major howlers are reported in the next few weeks. From 
experience, the majority of instability / weird behaviour in these situations 
comes from reuse of an old profile...when jumping to a major new version, I'd 
always advise to start with a completely fresh profile to avoid any 
incompatibilities.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise & Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


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Re: [WSG] PHP Standards

[Matijs]

I haven't had time to look into other frameworks but make sure to check out
Zend as well. It's at version 1.5.2. at this time and it has a nice built-in
templating system.

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:05 AM, James Jeffery <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There are a number of ways to get tasks done on the intnernet. Some hard
> core programmers would use plain old C and CGI.
>
> As for PHP Standards, follow the manual and best practices. Get a book on
> design patterns, especially the one by the Gang Of Four, as these patterns
> can crossover to the majority of programming languages.
>
> There are also plenty of MVC (Model-View-Controller) frameworks such as
> cakePHP and Symphony.
>
>
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Re: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5

[Korny Sietsma]

I have had problems running FF2 on a machine also running FF3 -
specifically, and fatally for me, FireBug wouldn't install cleanly in
FF2 if I had FF3 running.

I'd load FF3 in a vmware image, or maybe test it with an Ubuntu 8.04 live CD.

Note that beta 5 at least is still rather unstable.  I've managed to
crash it semi-regularly - somewhere the combination of Gmail,
Campfire, and Firebug (I have to run an alpha of Firebug to get FF3
support) makes the browser die.  I'm not sure which of these is the
actual culprit, or if it's some combination, but clicking on a folder
in gmail, sometimes, kills the browser; and firebug itself often goes
into la-la land.

Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more
stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain
- at least for my configuration!

- Korny

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Felix Miata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2008/05/20 15:13 (GMT+1200) Paul Bennett apparently typed:
>
>> Ack!
>> Anyone else had horrible problems installing FF3?
>
> No, but ...
>
>> My install crashes every time I open it, so I had to reinstall FF2..
>
> I avoid "installing" applications whenever possible. In the case of
> unreleased Gecko products, it's more than just possible, it's often 
> preferable.
>
> Get yourself an archive build instead of an installer build from
> http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/ and see
> if you have better luck.
>
> There's no reason you can't have both on the same machine at the same time,
> though an extra step or three are required to enable using both at the same
> time, and you're probably better off not using a profile previously used with
> FF3 to use with FF2.
> --
> ". . . . in everything, do to others what you would
> have them do to you . . . ."   Matthew 7:12 NIV
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>
>
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>



-- 
Kornelis Sietsma korny at my surname dot com
kornys at gmail dot com on google chat -- kornys on skype
"we do what we must, because we can"


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Re: [WSG] PHP Standards

[James Jeffery]

There are a number of ways to get tasks done on the intnernet. Some hard
core programmers would use plain old C and CGI.

As for PHP Standards, follow the manual and best practices. Get a book on
design patterns, especially the one by the Gang Of Four, as these patterns
can crossover to the majority of programming languages.

There are also plenty of MVC (Model-View-Controller) frameworks such as
cakePHP and Symphony.


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