Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
I perfer fusion over parallels. Cheapest option to run IE only has got to be http://www.kronenberg.org/ies4osx/ which is free. I haven't tested it, so I'm not sure how accurate the rendering is compared to running a real version of windows. On Fri , kevin mcmonagle sent: Whats my cheapest option for getting ie7 to run on my intel based mac. Is it basically an option between boot camp, parallels or virtual pc? -- kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8
crikey, that's some list. thanks Russ. On 24/01/2008, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you been following the discussions on the IE8 and compatibility for the last couple of days? For those that haven't been following it (or have deliberately run away to hide), here are a few articles to read :) -- kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On 14/01/2008, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. The person using your page might not be looking at your page or clicking either =) best bet is to use on clear labelling of your form controls not on interpreting the visual design. for a momentary distraction on the importance of labelling see: http://www.ok-cancel.com/comic/28.html -- kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] RE: Disabling Fonts in Font Stacks
Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: Apple menu PreferencesAdvanced tab. Not everybody uses windoze. Darn stupid mistake funny. If, in laymans terms, font-size-adjust allows you to specify the font-size based on the x-height of a preferred font-family, how is a rendering engine supposed to deal with this if said font is missing? And how does it resolve line-height issues for fonts that have a low aspect ratio? Personally, I would like to see some decent column support before trying to exert this degree of control on font-sizing. -- kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-size-adjust (was: RE: Disabling Fonts in Font Stacks)
On 12/3/07, Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If, in laymans terms, font-size-adjust allows you to specify the font-size based on the x-height of a preferred font-family, how is a rendering engine supposed to deal with this if said font is missing? My thinking was way off here - I was thinking that somehow only the bowl was adjusted. Strange but true. I can see now how handy this property could be. Pretty good explanation at http://www.quackit.com/css/properties/css_font-size-adjust.cfm: ...if 12px Georgia (with an aspect value of 0.50) was unavailable and an available font had an aspect value of 0.40, the font-size of the substitute would be 12 * (0.50/0.40) = 15px. kind regards Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Markup question
John Faulds wrote: I have to mark up a club constitution where all the paragraphs are numbered For legal and/or binding documents I'd argue that the numbers are integral to the content they precede and should not be abstracted by using list markup - especially if there are references to numbered clauses. If you need to apply style to the number then use some type of inline element. -- kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] source order
Rick Lecoat wrote: Remember that screen reader applications can commonly call up a handy list of all the links on a page Has anyone tested how skip links work from a link list? I have a little theory called the hierarchy of link specificity that I've been meaning to write up for years. The theory concerns itself with source order and link lists. It goes something like this: with a reverse source order (content before nav) content specific links will always appear before the current section nav ,main nav, and utility links - this should have the effect of allowing the most relevant (to the current context) links to appear at the top of lists - effectively shortening them considerably. With traditional source order link lists are essentially random and people still have to scroll through the entire list to find relevant links. kind regards, Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] source order
If you landed on the page from a search result and it's not the page you want... can we assume that it be close, given you clicked to there in the first place? Patrick, I suspect your assumptions are way bigger than mine on this one :-) But, like I said, it's a theory (untested), so we don't really know either way. kind regards, Terrence Wood. On 16/10/2007, at 10:47 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: It goes something like this: with a reverse source order (content before nav) content specific links will always appear before the current section nav ,main nav, and utility links - this should have the effect of allowing the most relevant (to the current context) links to appear at the top of lists Most relevant to whom, though? If I landed on a page (say from a google search) but actually want to navigate further into/around the site, *my* most relevant links are the navigation ones. One size does not always fit all. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] source order
Ben, this is damn fine summary. kind regards Terrence Wood. On 11/10/2007, at 12:40 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: Is there a prevailing wisdom in this matter? Content first? Or navigation first? This is a jury is still out issue since nobody has comprehensive data, just small studies and opinion informed by observation of a relatively small number of users. What I think we can say for sure: 1) No matter which way you go, be consistent across the site so users can learn how your site works and trust it to work the same way as they move through the site. 2a) Either way, include skip/jump links; but 2b) Include visible skip links where possible or use invisible-but-accessible skip links (ie. do not use display: none; to hide skip links as a very large number of users will never be able to access them). If they are hidden, try to make them visible on focus so sighted keyboard users can see them. 3) Use meaningful link text and a logical heading structure. Not only is this just good practice and good for SEO... the accessibility-oriented reason people say this is that some (many? most?) screen reader users don't actually read a page from top to bottom. They use features which extract all the headings or links into a list; read just that list then use that to jump around content. Once they identify that they're on the page they really need, then and only then will they read the whole page. I will no doubt be corrected for saying this - please note that I am not saying *all* screen reader users do this. Screen Reader users have habits which are just as varied as other web users. No two people use the web in precisely the same way - but overall trends and common approaches can be identified. Enough disclaimer? :) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] will Eric Meyer?s CSS SCULPTOR put me out of job?
Tee G. Peng: what you do guys think of [CSS Sculptor]... PVll CSS layout Magic, and the Google Blueprint? Using pencil and paper to write won't make you a great novelist. Using better tools, like a computer, to write still won't make you a great novelist. Same deal with ready made libraries - they won't replace great craftmanship, and in most circumstances you need to understand the craft to make the most of them anyway. Personally, I have used code snippets (from single lines, to complete generic layouts) for as long as I can remember - it just makes sense. For the record blueprint is not a google product, it's just hosted at google code. kind regards, Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Joyce Evans wrote:
Content-disposition: attachment; filename=document.pdf
This seems to be a good idea. Could you please give an example
where this
code would be placed on the web page or how it would fit into the
code?
You can set this as a http header using a server side script.
In PHP the code looks like:
?php
// We'll be outputting a PDF
header('Content-type: application/pdf');
// It will be called downloaded.pdf
header('Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=downloaded.pdf');
// The PDF source is in original.pdf
readfile('original.pdf');
?
see: http://php.net/header
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
Jackie Reid wrote: Can fieldsets only to be used in forms or can they be used to group any sort of related information From memory the W3C validator doesn't complain if you do use them outside a form, but they are designed specially to group thematically related controls and labels and you can always use headings and divs to group other related content. kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] safari hack for overflow-x/y
On 31/05/2007, at 8:49 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Are there any safari hacks that validate and will be somewhat permanent? I'm curious as to why you need a hack for safari as it's a reasonably compliant browser. What are you trying to work around? kind regards Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Some clients do not want [required on the end of each label], they think it pollutes the visual. Understandable - most people buy a design from a visual - not actually using the product they are commissioning. This is a great way to bring usability into the conversation by talking about how frustrating it is when you make a mistake filling in forms, and what the client can do to help their customers avoid a frustrating experience. kind regards, Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
On 27/05/2007, at 7:58 PM, Katrina wrote: My point being that fieldset could be used to wrap label and input pairs? No. fieldset is to group related controls, not labels and controls. kind regards Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: A likely candidate might be putting the word in the in the label. which will bring us back to doe. doe a deer, a female deer [from the sound of music]... I said: How about just including (required) on the end of each label, Then, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Some clients do not want this at all, they think it pollutes the visual. kind regards, Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
most screen reader users don't expand abbreviations, they would only get asterisk spoken to them. They might wonder what its significance is. Any user might wonder what an asterisk is for without instructional text. How about just including (required) on the end of each label, or grouping the required fields in a 'Required' fieldset? kind regards Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] input name and id
On 18/04/2007, at 1:56 PM, Mariusz Nowak wrote: 'name' is not required by specification (at least as far as I understand specification) - it's a bit striking to me as what's the use of input element without assigned name?? Exactly. Perhaps I should have said 'name' is **needed** to process form controls and avoided language with special meaning within the spec. see: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#successful- controls kind regards Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] What do we say if we don't say click?
John Faulds:
Surely people recognise links enough that they don't need to be told to
click every single one?
I agree. The verb ('click here', 'go to' etc) really shouldn't form part
of the link text.
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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RE: [WSG] What do we say if we don't say click?
John Foliot wrote: semi-credible stats showing that 4% of users cannot (do not?) support JavaScript [http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2007/March/javas.php] Granted, this appears to be more reliable than 99.9% - but isn't javascript required in order for thecounter.com to gather stats, or do they use web bugs? I think it is (semi) safer to say 4% of visitors to sites using thecounter.com counters do not have javascript enabled =) kind regards Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] input name and id
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can I just substitute ID for NAME and still adhere to web standards or is NAME really required? 'name' **is** required on inputs. It's confusing, but the name attribute is required on **form controls** (input etc) so that your from can be processed on your server - it's not the same thing as 'name' used elsewhere (e.g. anchors). kind regards Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Ted Drake wrote: IE6 will get buggy if you only use imports. Are you referring to FOUC - or other bugginess or both? If there are other bugs can you enlighten me? kind regards Terrence Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tabindex and accesskey
On 4/03/2007, at 12:43 AM, David Dorward wrote: 9.5 Provide keyboard shortcuts to important links (including those in client-side image maps), form controls, and groups of form controls. Well, technically it is a requirement of AAA level WCAG 1.0, but a lot of experts consider accesskeys to do more harm then good since they interfere with built-in keyboard shortcuts in most browsers. You can get around this by declaring your links, form controls and groups of form controls as not important. ;-) kind regards Terrecne Wood. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] css generating i.e security pop up
IE will give you a security alert when you try to run a script from your hard drive. You can change this setting in IE pref's or you can insert a 'mark of the web' to force the offending page(s) to run in the intranet or internet zone... google it. kind regards, Terrence Wood. On 1/03/2007, at 3:31 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hi, Im using the pure css - alphaimageloader hack for png transparency. The problem is that its setting of a security warning in ie 6. The pngs will only show up if you click ok and allow the script. How should i handle this? Is there anything i can do to make this less obtrusive? www.mcmonagle.biz/arena7 -best kevin mcmonagle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript to check for Handheld Devices
On 1/03/2007, at 10:25 PM, Lee Powell wrote:
Does anyone have any advice on how I can check if the device
accessing the page is handheld or screen and offer up the relevant
javascript?
Best bet - create a mobile specific domain... failing that you could
test for an arbitrary property:
if (screen.width 640) {
// your code
}
kind regards
Terrence Wood
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Re: [WSG] Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Joseph R. B. Taylor: How do YOU set up your directories? / /index.html -- rinse and repeat as needed or process server side. /images/ -- content images only /ui/ -- everything in here, or split into the following if required: /ui/tpl/ -- templates includes /ui/img/ -- self explanatory /ui/css/ -- ditto /ui/js/ -- ditto or /ui/optionalthemename/ -- everything in here... ditto above. I usually use some sort of server language and mod_rewrite to shorten urls to /ui on the client side. kind regards -- Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Section specific introductory pages and usability
Paul Hempsall: What's the general concensus of the direction Introduction pages should take. I've always been concerned that reiterating the section navigation via a barrage of links would be a confusing and disorienting method. quite the opposite: a barrage of links with a supporting explanation is better than a barrage of links with none. Providing expanded scent for navigation labels typically found in the main navigation device is quicker and easier to use than clicking a bunch of links in the the hope the resulting page is the one the user wants. I recently test the main navigation system of a large content rich site and most participants requested more descriptive information (either through tool tips or instructional text) to aid in their understanding of how the site was put together. Start with Henrik Olsens site: http://www.guuui.com/browse.php?cid=137 See #4 #5 (both point to Jared Spool's work, but there may be something else there of interest =) ) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] linked list alternative to nested menus
Paul, I like your solution. 1) The semantic relationship of parent menu item to sub-menu is obscured if not lost. Provide a structural label for top-level navigation, this will make the relationship far more explicit. Using the labels from you main navigation device as headings for the sub-menus will also serve to strengthen the relationship. 2) Because the sub-menu is not structurally nested within the parent item, some visual layouts of the menu will be difficult or impossible, such as the nested folder metaphor. You can enhance the layout with a little javascript to achieve any layout you can imagine, you just need to account for the non-javascript design. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling Fieldset and Legend Elements
Thierry Koblentz:
the * html hack works in IE *Mac* too.
good point. There's always the tan hack, but probably the better way to
go is to exploit IE/Macs lack of @media support.
@media screen {
* html...
}
Patrick H. Lauke:
I have an aversion for adding cruft that only works in a specific
browser family to my HTML, which should be browser agnostic.
Ditto. I've been agreeing with Patrick a lot lately... I'm not a
stalker, I promise.
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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Re: star hack and IE 7 (was Re: [WSG] Styling Fieldset and Legend Elements)
Gunlaug Sørtun: Nothing wrong with 'conditional comments' I always weigh it up with the cost of CC code size plus the server trip for the file, vs. the code size for inline '* html hacks', usually the latter method wins. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] AIMIA Awards
On 28 Feb 2006, at 7:04 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 278 errors and 799 warnings on the index page alone. Provided you have javascript for the redirect into the cms =) AIMIA site aside, a quick look through some of the entrants is quite encouraging compared to some awards sites I've seen in the last few years (in the .gov space at least). Well done to those designers. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font Sizes - Best practice
Rimantas Liubertas: a) How many users do know that there exists a preference for a font size. b) How many of the do know how to use it and indeed do use it. c) How many have an idea what 'px' or 'pt' is, and have an idea how big is 16pt/px. Same goes for DPI settings. d) How many users prefer to play with settings instead of doing what they were going to do in the first place (getting info)? All good questions. I read somewhere recently that a seasoned usability tester observed one person changing the font size for the very first time. We may well conclude that the answer to the above questions are not many, however, I sense that they are largely rhetorical. In any case, they illustrate very well the reason(s) why it is better to have a font that's too big than one that's too small. Felix Miata wrote: Here's my definition of user default-based Thanks for the definition, particularly the examples you provide for when it is ok to use smaller text. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Confusing the users...
Jason Turnbull: Terrence Wood wrote: Jakob Nielsen responded to my request for clarification Jacob has used this request for his latest article http://www.useit.com/alertbox/within_page_links.html Wow! there's my 15 seconds of fame. If he'd mentioned me by name I'd be immortal! The other request is form Thierry. My favourite bit: When Within-Page Links Are OK... in frequently asked questions lists (FAQs), you can list the questions at the top of the page and make each question a link that scrolls the page to the associated answer. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Plain text v HTML on this list
On 22 Feb 2006, at 2:50 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: Outlook users should ...switch to a better mail client that isn't broken. Outllok can be configured to send plain text can't it? I usually don't bother to read the 1mm tall text it sends out (screenshots on request), unless I'm really interested in the thread. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check - CSS Problem?
http://www.visitshetland.com/ interesting url given, the running joke about shetland ponies on this list right now. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumb as Section Heading H1
James Hunter: Is it appropriate to use the breadcrumb as the H1 element? Breadcrumbs do not describe the *document* structure - they hint at the *site* structure (provided you only provide a hierarchal navigation system) or site history (depending on what type of breadcrumb you employ). I'm thinking out aloud here: not sure why, but using a list for breadcrumbs doesn't quite sit right with me, despite it being a type of navigation device. I think it is due to list structures replacing the dir and menu elements - and the notion that the site hierarchy represented as links is distinctly different from a navigation menu. Anyone else have thoughts on this? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Rick Faaberg: All popup windows break the back button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not). So if you are 12 clicks into the new site in the original window, you're fine with clicking back 12 times to get back to the original site? Assuming of course that no-one else is opening windows for me then I'd use the drop down that most browsers have, or the history function. The back button is still the quickest way of backing out of a single link that doesn't suit me and going back more than one link is a simple repetitive action that requires minimal effort on my part. Wouldn't close window in the new window (with the 12 clicks inside) be much quicker? If your site was the only site in the world to open new windows then sure this might be quicker. But when a lot of sites (randomly) insist on opening windows it is easy to loose track of where you are and where you came from. The effort required to close a window. Locate other open browser windows and select the one I want to return to is most definitely more than hitting the back button. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] occam's razor again - was [ TARGET in 4.01 Strict ]
blqberi: I agree, but just how low do you go? Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - Einstein. .. on my current job I maintain my dept's intranet site... things are so painfully simple a 2 year old could use the site with ease... unfortunately the adults using the site still have difficulty Occams razor says choose the simplist amongst possible solutions. Sounds like too simple is not a solution in this case. Thankfully your users are easy to identify =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
Joshua Street: The BIGGEST thing I can see wrong with this site is the image map. Nice site. Check the typos: Skip to nazvigation (top of page). Outside of that I mostly agree with Josh except I'd like to see the county names as plain text and positioned instead on the map instead of as graphics and part of it. This may help low vision users. Does the you are here text refer to the image map or is there a broken breadcrumb? If it refers to the image map maybe you need a different label. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
kvnmcwebn: Can i get a second opinion on felix's advice? What did Felix advise? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
On 17 Feb 2006, at 1:31 PM, kvnmcwebn wrote: What did Felix advise? Let your visitors be able to use your site without fighting through this rude and unnecessary basic usability/accessibility obstacle. See: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html; I didn't really need to ask... and I concur. Interestingly, I was pretty much repsonsible for one of the lengthy font debates with Felix a couple of years ago, where I took the designers side. I have since changed my mind. I have 20/20 vision, but I now have little time for sites with teeny text and/or bad leading - I'm just too busy. Text at my size suits me best =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Al Sparber: I think you raise a very valid point. People who rely on a web site to make money tend to have a much different view of such things and use much different criteria to judge the merits of various techniques. Nice pun. The usually reason cited in support of new windows for money makers is that they improve conversion. However, AFAIK there is no evidence to support this, and in all the literature I have read (outside of opinions expressed in mailing lists) I am yet to come across a recommendation (with proof) that popping new windows is a good practice to improve conversion. There are examples that recommend against it, including one from an e-marketeer. I think the concept of opening new windows belongs in the same bin as the three click rule and the magic number seven (not related to you in any way Al). It is far easier for a user to open a new window when required, than to circumvent new windows from opening when they're not wanted. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Lachlan Hunt: If the viewport isn't the right size...seemingly nothing happens. The only way I could replicate this in the demo page was by resizing my window so that the the text box and help button were at the bottom of the viewport with nothing visible below them. This is a valid usability concern and your observation is exactly how it manifests itself. I mentioned the above scenario on the recent FAQ thread which discussed toggled screen elements. Al Sparber: If popup windows are scripted you reuse the same window object over and over. You can never have more than one open. Your statement is only true if the target attribute is used. Doesn't this present yet another usability problem where you might open a link in the window.object over the top of a link the user has decided to keep but has returned to your page to follow other links (the original reason for popping a window)? You might be right about new windows being a fiscal non-issue when examined or tested. We do have experience with some frameset impact, that are downright interesting. Would that revolve around targeting a frame (necessary for a traditional frameset implementation), not necessarily targeting new windows? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Serdar Kılıç: The way *I* browse some sites is how I built my site. Important point: that is your browsing habit. You *can* open new windows if *you* want or prefer it. Shouldn't you give your users the same degree of freedom over their browsing experience. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Stephen Stagg: browsers with easy settings allowing you to over-ride the site-specific link behaviors, this way, authors could suggest a default action for a link and then people who passionately care about their windows can override it, result; everyone happy. There is a default action for links - they open in the same window =). Users can choose to open them if required. Same result, opposite approach. Not every user really cares about browsers - they are a tool to do a specific job, much like pen and paper, or a phone - they want to use it and be done with it, not fiddle with endless pref's and options. Kevin Futter: I open a Flash-based music player in a new window - a small pop-up. Pretty sure you should be able to prevent a flash movie from playing onload... I accept your point about having persistent music player with the caveat that a music site may be a specialist type site for a specialist audience - In the same way that I accept flash based experiential sites are appropriate for flash designers for example. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Al Sparber: Doesn't this present yet another usability problem... can explain what you mean in a bit more detail. 1. Your links open a new window object 'foo'. 2. User now has two windows: their window with your page, 'foo' with external page. 3. User decides to leave 'foo' open because they are interested in the page loaded into it, and return to their window to explore your page again. Success!! this is the exact behaviour we want from opening new windows - it's the marketing argument. 4. User finds another link to explore on your page and clicks the link. 5. The link targets 'foo' and loads a new page into it. Now we are not only forcing the user to manage two windows, but we are also loading all our links into 'foo', which potentially the user may not want (if they are expecting to return to some content they have left before) or notice. Phew... it all seems so much more complicated than just using a back button =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Al Sparber: You might be right about new windows being a fiscal non-issue when examined or tested. We do have experience with some frameset impact, that are downright interesting. it's our Demo Viewer application. It has an enormous impact on sales. If I'm not mistaken it reloads a dynamic frameset for each link, so window targets don't seem to apply here - it's more a convenient way to load the navigation for your product catalogue without having to work navigation into each demo page or cause users to pogostick between pages (nav then sample then nav etc). I see why it works for you. Aside: Perhaps the noframe content could point back to the front page where there is the option to review each product individually. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Christian Montoya: I'm not pre-supposing anything. All popup windows break the back button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not). When I am done with the site that pops up, I want to use the back button to get back to the original site. That is natural web use and popups interfere with that. I have to close the window to go back, which, like has already been said, is not as convenient, as the back button is on my trackball (like a mouse but cooler), while closing a window requires alt-f4 (two buttons miles apart) or reaching for the X. Two words: occams razor. See: http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/simplicity.cfm (about halfway down) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Herrod, Lisa wrote: Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, [WSG] Web design education. What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone else sent me one of those recently. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible drill-down into a nested list
Ian Anderson: I think this would be immensely bad design for screen reader users. This is a site map. What you may be missing is that too many links are the bane of a screen reader user's life. They rely on using links as a kind of binary tree to navigate the site - the last thing they benefit from is hearing links again that they have already discarded as not of interest. They go back much more than sighted users in order to find a link they heard before. The other interesting thing is that screen reader users build a mental map of a site that is nothing like the real architecture, based on the links they hear. If every link is on every page, all pages sound the same to them, because about half of a user's time on each page is spent listing the links. When the links on each page are mostly unique, screen reader users perform better in tasks. This is great, I'd really like to send this as a reply every time someone asks about dropdown menus ;-) The lack of uniqueness in link labels and too much navigation (e.g. the site map on every page) affects all users not just screen reader users. I recently completed user testing for a navigation system with 165+ links in it. Most tasks were eventually completed though not without error(s). We observed a lot of backtracking, confusion over similar (i.e not unique enough) labels and false positives (where users were confident the task was complete but they were not in the prescribed location). Most users requested additional contextual information (e.g. tooltips, or deks). So indications are, IMO (based on this, and my recent reading of Spool on global navigation) that less global navigation, and more contextual navigation is generally better for content rich sites. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible drill-down into a nested list
Paul Novitski wrote: When the page reloads the screen-reader begins reading the menu from the beginning again. Correct. The user would have to listen for a new sub-menu, but without really knowing for sure whether a new sub-menu had appeared. Correct. browsing with a screen-reader must require a great deal of patience as you wait through the repetition of the menu each time in order to discover the new list of sub-options. Correct. the page reloads with a set of breadcrumbs that spells out the history Essentially you are repeating information already available through the browser history, and it still doesn't inform the user that there is a new menu if that is your goal. Also, breadcrumbs are most commonly links to parent directories in the site hierarchy, so there may be some issues here - you might need to test it with real users. After the breadcrumb list comes the current sub-menu If you are talking about unnesting the sub-menu then, yes, this is good. Some screen readers don't announce the end of a list so the whole concept of nesting is lost. See also link at end about structural labels. Somewhere else on the page, perhaps last in the markup, would be the full menu including all menu items at each selected level. A jump to navigation link early on the page could get you there quickly. As a develpoer I prefer a noun form for navigation (e.g. main navigation, page content) and drop the verb (e.g. skip to, jump to) there are some reports of screen reader users not understanding the purpose of skip links and thus ignoring them. Please let me know if this scenario would work for you I recommend reading Hudson, Weakley and Miller's work on source order and structural labels: http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm kind regards Terrence wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
My sincerist apologies to Thierry, his interpretation of Nielsen was indeed correct. And thanks, I have certainly learnt something With reference to the articles Thierry cited earlier Jakob Nielsen responded to my request for clarification as follows: Does this imply that links to content situated on the same page confuse users? Or, put another way ,is your recommendation suggesting that all links must load a new document into an existing browser window? Yes to both. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Thierry Koblentz said: Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles or that I am plain wrong? Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and nothing more (e.g. your claim that divs are hacks; you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new document). the popup window reference is irrelevant. If you simply replace opening new windows with using jump links If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. What you are calling jump links are nothing more than hypertext links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define hypertext links like this: A link is a connection from one web resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an element within an HTML document.[2] It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency* Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links to resources within a page is a convention for the web. [1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/links.html#h-12.1 [2]:http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/links.html#h-12.1.1 kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Al Sparber: Very distracting Are you talking about when there is just the list of links is first and you must scroll to get the first screen of content? - even more so when there are mixed links some scroll to another point, others load new documents. Agreed. This is really about consistency =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Thierry Koblentz said: Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. So you keep saying, but your actions are different. you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new document. What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret the USEIT articles. I never said it did. What I said is you are practicing the opposite of what you are preaching. If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong that logic is. I disagree in fact, you *do* agree with me, you just seem unable to see how it relates to the argument you are putting forward... Read on FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. Exactly. As is your assertion that a recommendation against opening new windows is a recommendation against using in-page anchors. Substituting anything in Nielsens recommendation distorts the recommendation: it *is not* what he said, and it *does not* make sense. using jump links is not the same as opening new windows and it clearly isn't chocolate orange cake. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with usability/accessibility. Web Standards. Consistency. Platform conventions. The thing that defines the web. It is about how things are supposed to work Exactly. If things work the way they are supposed to, then you can't get much more usable than that. [accesskey's have] usability/accessibility issues attached Yes they do, but that is a browser implementation issue, not a markup issue. e.g. Macs browser's and Opera's accesskey implemenatation do not conflict with the OS like other PC browsers. So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with the navigation links for example? They don't have to be, in the same way that main nav, secondary nav, and in-content links are generally easy to distinguish and understand: they should be consistent within the context in which they appear (internally consistent within a block?). That said, you might have to hack in a div or heading here and there. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink#toctitle Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen... a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below is less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of what's gonna happen next. When a user clicks on a link they *know* they will be taken to the resource described by that hypertext link. It doesn't even need an explantion because it is so fundamental. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Thierry Koblentz said: Is it de facto *the* option because 2 people on this list said so? It's a pretty common design pattern, and no-one challenged it. But discuss vs. mention is a pedantic argument - let's move on. USEIT said clicking a link should have the only effect of loading a new document in the same browser window. News to me, I have never heard of such a recommendation. Googling USEIT doesn't support you on this point either. IMHO, when a user clicks on a question that reveals the answer right below it he knows that he's still viewing the same document, because the surrounding elements did not change. I believe clicking on a link that jumps way down the page may bit a bit more confusing for the average user. Revealing content means the surrounding elements *do* change. Following a hypertext link is the single most understood aspect of the web. In fact, it is it's defining feature - hence HyperText Markup Language. What about if the question is at the very bottom of the viewport and the content is reveal below the window chrome? What about screenreader users who are, in effect, reading a copy of the page as it first loads? I see a relationship between a DT and a DD that I don't see between a heading and a paragraph. Huh? What is the purpose of headings then? Headings and paras precede the web and definition lists. It is an inherent feature of reading and writing. Definition List comes with a bonus, a natural wrapper (the DL). Adding a div is hardly a hack - W3C says a div offers a generic mechanism for adding extra structure to documents. Half a dozen one way, six the other. But then you create redundancy for the sake of visual browsers. No, the redundancy is acutally for the opposite of visual browsers, but ultimately every browser/user benefits. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script *Little off topic*
Search scriptfree http://www.google.com/search?q=free+search+engine+script ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Thierry Koblentz said: A link should be a simple hypertext reference that *replaces the current page* with new content. English is not my native language so I may be missing some subtle nuances here Yes, you have completely missed the point of the recommendation. You are misquoting a recommendation against using javascript links to open new windows. The replacing the current page part of the quote means not a page opened via javascript. Both of the articles mentionned abobe say that the defining feature is to *replace* the document with another one, *not* to take the user to another part of the same document. Again, you are misquoting the recommendation. Both articles are talking about not opening new windows. I'm just saying that jump links are not issue free If your opinion is based on your understanding of the USEIT article, you are misinformed. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Justin Carter said: It truly is frustrating when FAQ pages hide everything with invisible DIVs. As already mentioned it makes Ctrl-F useless (which I personally find very annoying), and it also makes me click a whole bunch of useless + symbols if I want to read more than one question on the page. Agreed. One of the basic tenents of usability is to prevent errors. Breaking basic browser funtionality (find function) contravenes this... The rest is fixing what you just broke isn't it? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
a marketing-oriented person would probably eat you for lunch I doubt it. I spent over a decade in marketing =) Besides, a solution for getting topics above the fold has already been discussed in this thread. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Al Sparber said: I spent 20 years designing and building some of the most upscale food markets in America. So let's call it a push and move on, eh? Your foo beats mine Al =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Thierry Koblentz said: AFAIK, it has been mentionned but not discussed; Please. I don't think it is better in term of usability/accessibility, and what about semantic? Why not? And what about semantics? I believe the document is more coherent with the answers following the questions rather than split in 2 groups,: the questions, the answers. No-one said anything about decoupling the QA. The suggestion was about *adding* a list of links to page content, not unlike those found on wikipedia for example. Which brings a out of context issue that doesn't exist with a Definition List. See above. I'm not sure there was agreement that a definition list is the semantic answer. What about headings for Q's and paras for A's. The heading can be viewed in a document outline (by some browsers), and it avoids the whole Q/A is not a term/definition argument. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by out of context - I'm guessing you are stuck on the idea that the Q's can only appear once on the page? And since we're talking about browser feature, what about printing the page? ;) Easily solved with CSS for print media. kind regards Terrence Wood ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Al Sparber said: Here's another approach you're sure not to like :-) http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/swapclass/outline/ Presume you are talking to me? Don't get me wrong Al, I love the interactive aspect of the net and that is, in fact, what drew me to it in the first place. I'm not going to stand on some philosophcal high ground and automatically dismiss solutions like this (I have built similar in the past, and probably will in the future), but like all things it needs to be considered in context. If I was confident the users were able to use this type of device and it sat well within the design and served a purpose then I wouldn't hesitate to use expanding and collapsing divs. I'd add an onfocus event though ;-) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net
On 3 Feb 2006, at 4:43 AM, Hopkins Programming wrote: If there are any of you all who use screen readers or text-only browsers on a regular basis, what is your opinion? - Do you expect the navigation or content to come first? Roger and Russ answer this one in their report. In summary, the current state of the web is that navigation comes first. - Which would you prefer to come first? I use a text browser on a regular basis (it's really fast - no js, css, or images - and I prefer keyboard navigation to save my wrists). I prefer content first. But think about how your page is designed for a moment. If there was no CSS, and all you had was HTML, how would you put a page together? Would you really have some navigation at the top, some in the middle and some at the end, intermixed with your content? There is no other situation where the UI is interspersed with the content. One of the big web standards ideals is the separation of content and presentation, and at the moment I think we are about half way there. Most sites are marked up to support the visual design provided by the CSS file. - If the content comes first, should there be a Skip to Navigation link at the top? Yes, but I suggest if you use a reverse source order layout (content, then navigtion) that you label the link as main navigation or navigation menu or similar and drop any reference to 'skip' or 'jump'. - Overall, do you believe that the Content first principle is a valid one? Yes. It has a number of benefits for a diverse range of devices (e.g. screenreaders, handhelds, search engines) and code maintenance. Consider this together with my points above. I'm on record as not entirely accepting Roger, Russ and Lisa's recommendations on source order, but that said, I'm not vehemently opposed to them either. HTH kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net
Joseph R. B. Taylor said: I personally would expect the page to appear as any typical printed document should. Page Title (your h1 element) Table of Contents (your ul nav list) Content (content) A typical printed document doesn't have a table of contents on every page. It's usally appears once at the front. In a few thousand years we probably will have a single interaction model for web pages, but in the meantime, not everything from the print world translates that well to the digital one. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Questions about Data Tables and Accessibility
Hi Kat, I'll paraphrase while attempting to answer abbreviation for number? abbr title=numberno./abbr When is two tables better than one? When you have a logical grouping that shares some attributes, but the data makes sense when presented as a stand-alone table. When is it better to split up the data? When you have an 'excessive' number of rows or columns. Is two columns with the same name bad table structure? Possibly, but there must be some feature of each of the columns that makes them distinct from each other. If so, include the distinguishing feature as part of the column heading. Should I split a table on units? Not neccessarily, just insure that the unit forms part of the column label. Are colgroups only for presentation? colgroup is structural, col is presentational. Using them demarcates data. Are there ids, headers or something involved? Not for colgroups How is it done? Is there some sort of way that someone using the accessibility features can choose one or other colgroup? Add the colgroup element to the top of your table after the caption and before any row groups. In what order do headers go on table cell data? Does this matter? I don't understand the question. Can you omit the caption if the table is the only thing on the page? You really should have a caption. It gets read as part of the table, whereas the heading doesn't. If you have a table-header that spans two rows - is it seen as the table header for both rows? I read somewhere that you shouldn't span rows, but I can't find the source. Anyone? Oh, here is one source but it's not the one I am thinking of http://www.webaim.org/techniques/tables/2 (see 2.7 Avoid spanning rows). There is also an argument around about how it becomes more confusing when a table is linearized. I say avoid rowspan if at all possible. scope, or id and headers? Scope should suffice on simple tables (two or less heading levels, small number of cols and/or rows), complex tables need headers and ids to work well for the widest number of screen readers. HTH kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Background-Image download order
Todd Baker said:
We are finding that the background images for our main navigation are
downloading last and as such the white text is unreadable
This makes for quite a usability issue. Is there any way you can revisit
the design to ensure the text is visible with images turned off or not
downloaded?
Or if it's just a case of fixing the anchor color then supply a background
color for just that element. The browser will render the specified
background color and place the image over the top of it when it is
downloaded.
EXAMPLE
a {background: #000 url(image.gif); color: #fff}
Is there any logic I can apply (ordering CSS etc) that will affect the
order the browser requests and downloads background images?
Not that I'm aware of... I always thought it was something magical that
browsers and servers worked out amongst themselves to in order to make
best use of the available packets and minimise requests.
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net
Hopkins Programming said: [is it] better that the content all comes first? Mark Pilgrim [1], Sarah Horton (of Web Style Guide Fame, in her latest book) and others say it is. Roger Hudson, WSG's very own Russ Weakley, and Lisa Miller say that it isn't. [1]: http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_10_presenting_your_main_content_first.html [2]: http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] small screen rendering
On 20 Jan 2006, at 10:37 AM, Nic wrote: For example, even if you declare a stylesheet for media=handheld, Explorer for the handheld will still use some of the screen stylesheet. This makes it near impossible designing a proper style for handhelds. Thankfully, Explorer isn't the only HH browser ;-) I usually check in with htmldog to see what browser is doing what: http://htmldog.com/ptg/archives/55.php kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The Evils of innerHTML
Joshua Street said: do people consider it okay to use Supposedly faster than DOM methods, and usually requires less code. Personally, I don't see it as a problem for HTML documents, just need to be mindful that it will break as we move forward towards XHTML. otherwise impractical to use standard methods? When would it be impractical to use standards methods? kind regards Terrence WOod. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [OT] Flyout Menu (Semantically correct plus more ...)
Al Sparber said: Just out of curiosity, can you explain which menus are sematically incorrect and why? Hi Al, I suspect any menu system that doesn't use the elements recommended for navigation menu's since last century (i.e at least HTML 2.0) could be considered semantically incorrect. I'll leave it to the W3C to explain: HTML 2.0 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html#SEC5.6.4 HTML 4.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#edef-MENU XHTML 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-list.html kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Margin being inherited. Why?
Seona Bellamy said: form element is inheriting the left margin You have conflicting id's for content. Change to the textarea's id to something else. kind regards Terrence Wood ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Tabluar forms WAS: Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
On 15 Jan 2006, at 4:11 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: From an accessibility/assistive technology point of view it's worth noting, though, that many screen readers have different modes for tables and forms, and the user needs to switch between them. I seem to remember that it's not guaranteed that the th (which may possibly need the explicit scope=row) will be read out to the user when in forms mode (which they'd be in when filling out the form), so that all they'd know about the radio buttons is that one is black, the other white, but without any context. This can, to a certain extent (though dependent on user settings) be remedied by adding a title to the inputs as well... To pick up on the accessibility angle of this discussion, and I'll come down firmly on one side of the fence ;-) In this situation the table is clearly a layout table which, as Patrick points out earlier and in accordance with WACG 1.0 [1], *should not* include any strucutral markup such as th, scope etc. My thinking is this: A form is a device to enable user to interact with the site owner. A table is the representation of data recorded at discrete intervals (or some other discrete dimension). On forms in tables Joe Clark has this to say: Don’t put forms in tables unless you absolutely have no choice whatsoever. Suddenly the screen-reader user must deal with simultaneous forms mode *and* tables mode. Placing a label for a field (like “Name”) in a cell adjacent to that field is unnecessary and leads to a great deal of confusion. [2] He goes on to address theh differences between paper and online forms. A good read. Other readings: Accessibility 101 at University Wisconsin [3] http://www.doit.wisc.edu/accessibility/online-course/standards/ forms.htm See under heading: Tables and forms [1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-table-layout WACG 5.4. [2]: http://weblog.delacour.net/archives/000791.html Joe Clark on Forms and Tables. [3]: http://www.doit.wisc.edu/accessibility/online-course/standards/ forms.htm See under heading: Tables and forms. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Tabluar forms WAS: Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
On 15 Jan 2006, at 10:09 AM, Terrence Wood wrote: My thinking is this: A form is a device to enable user to interact with the site owner. A table is the representation of data recorded at discrete intervals (or some other discrete dimension). Oh, and one more point. I'd use my 2 second Layout Table Test (tm) to determine if you are using a layout table or not, which goes like this: Would I put this table in a spreadsheet? If you answer no, then the table is a layout one. kind regard Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Active Links
Helmut Granda said:
Hello,
I am trying to show on a left menu what page is currently active with CSS.
So far the only way I know how to do it is by hand-coding it
a href=link.html class=currentlinklink.html/a
What I was thinking about doing was to set up the a:Active class to like
bold or something, now the only time when the text shows bold is when I
press on it.
This is the correct behaviour. a:active is when the link is clicked.
You want to set up your style for the 'currentLink' class:
a.currentLink {
font-weight: bold;
}
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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RE: [WSG] Active Links
Helmut Granda said: What I am trying to achieve is this: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/keepingcurrent/ but without using an ID or a class. What server side language do you have support for? Creating navigation like the php example and including it with your pages is the best way to achieve what you want. If you don't have PHP, then you will probably at least have SSI as part of the server. Let us know and we can proced from there. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] : Problem with attribute BORDER in movint to strict mode. (the dotting of t's)
Jes Bigum said:
[remove] the border of the image inserted in the list.
li img {border: none}
if the image is just to indicate the current page then you can add the
image through css:
li a#current {
background: url(path/to/image.gif) no-repeat 0 50%;
padding-left: img-width; /* add value in px */
}
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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RE: [WSG] : Problem with attribute BORDER in movint to strict mode is solved
Jes Bigum said:
li a#current {
background: url(path/to/image.gif) no-repeat 0 50%;
padding-left: img-width; /* add value in px */ }
I thought your question was about indicating the current item. If you are
after a hover effect try:
li a {
padding-left: img-width;
}
li a:hover {
background: url(path/to/image.gif) no-repeat 0 50%;
}
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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Re: [WSG] ordered lists inside data tables
Vicki Berry said: Yes, definitely, I just don't know how to mark it up so I can keep my lists and the table. The In you dreams solution. Any chance it can be rewritten in *plain english* to remove the redundant clauses and overuse of numbering? Example: clause 1(b)is already *explicitly* described by clause 1(a). The It's a legal document and can't be changed or Written by laywer-types for lawyer-types solution. Because the document is written in leagalise I would not leave the numbering up to HTML + CSS to interpret - hard code the values instead. Forget about using lists - clauses are *not* list items - and instead concentrate on marking the table up so that it linerises properly (i.e. each charge is preceded by it's descriptor). I believe it is a layout table (basically to line up the charges to the right) *not* a data table because the header cells of item and charges GST.. can both be removed without loss of meaning for the table. Therefore, I recommend you not add any special markup to it.(OK maybe the GST included part is important - put it in the caption). kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ordered lists inside data tables
Vicki Berry said: Yes, definitely, I just don't know how to mark it up so I can keep my lists and the table. The In you dreams solution. Any chance it can be rewritten in *plain english* to remove the redundant clauses and overuse of numbering? Example: clause 1(b)is already *explicitly* described by clause 1(a). The It's a legal document and can't be changed or Written by laywer-types for lawyer-types solution. Because the document is written in leagalise I would not leave the numbering up to HTML + CSS to interpret - hard code the values instead. Forget about using lists - clauses are *not* list items - and instead concentrate on marking the table up so that it linerises properly (i.e. each charge is preceded by it's descriptor). I believe it is a layout table (basically to line up the charges to the right) *not* a data table because the header cells of item and charges GST.. can both be removed without loss of meaning for the table. Therefore, I recommend you not add any special markup to it.(OK maybe the GST included part is important - put it in the caption). kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ordered lists inside data tables
On 5 Jan 2006, at 4:54 PM, Vicki Berry wrote: Forget about using lists - clauses are *not* list items They're not? But ok, I've forgotten about using lists. :-) I guess you could argue that it's a list of clauses ;-) but no, the numbering has a very specific meaning that needs to be maintained. It's similar to how you would not mark an entire document up as a list if it had numbered headings. I believe it is a layout table Actually I do think it should be a data table. I would argue that 'item' is not much of a header - it's kinda self evident once you get past the caption. Try my one-second test for layout vs. data tables which goes like this: Would I put this table into a spreadsheet? If you answer no, then it is most likely a layout table. Ultimately your call though Vicki. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Wish-list for 2006
On 2 Jan 2006, at 8:00 AM, designer wrote: You? 1. Browsers render/access/use link elements in the document head, so (a) navigation can be implemented in the page header (like Lynx can), (b) at an implementation level there is separation of global navigation from content, and (c) browsers can use metadata. 2. IE7 is released and taken up quickly so we can use CSS 2.1 and start complaining about the lack of support for CSS 3.0 =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
On 1 Jan 2006, at 6:00 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Coming in late on this: As per the spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-summary summary = text [CS] This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille. So I'd say it's a combination of *purpose* and structure, and I'd say that it should be in that order as well. Assuming a screenreader user gets the summary, they'd presumably want to know what the table is for first (so they can quickly decide whether or not they're interested in it or want to skip it) before getting a whole column one does this, column two does that structural description. So, something like Earnings for Blahblah Ltd in 2005, broken down by month. The first column has the months, the second column has the earnings for that particular month or something along those lines...(yes, I suck at examples, but you get the idea) Sure, unless of course you are reading a page called Earnings for Blahblah in 2005 and your table has a caption like Earning for Blahblah 2005 by Month where repeating that info (the purpose) in the summary is redundant. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] search box(text area) form width
On 21 Dec 2005, at 7:47 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote:
how to get this keyword search box any narrower in ie?
.searchbox input{
width: 10em; /* desired width */
}
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
On 21 Dec 2005, at 11:57 AM, Samuel Richardson wrote: What's the best, cross-browser supported way to setup font sizes in CSS documents? http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Source Attribution for data tables
Hi all, how would/do you markup the source attribution for data tables when there is already a caption? EXAMPLE Table 1 - Summary of Key Indicators [data] . . . [data] Source: Foo Corp 2005 Should the caption be changed to include the attribution? Table 1 - Summary of Key Indicators (source: Foo Corp 2005) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Server-side includes?
Chris Lamberson said: it doesn't matter what goes on as long as it gets to the client in a standards-compliant, semantically correct form. Correct. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Kevin Ross said: Isn't using a dynamic frameset, still using frames? Yes. What is the advantage? None that I'm aware of. I will suggest that we just open a new window... I feel more comfortable with that as opposed to frames. Comments? Pop-up's are the lesser of the two evils, and if you must, you must. At least it has the advantage of SEO goodness through having online site blurbage. My design philosophy is... do the best job for my clients. Nice philosophy. I, for one, would be interested in hearing how you get on with this. Feel free to contact me off-list if you wish. Best of Luck. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
On 17 Dec 2005, at 6:46 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Have I missed something or is this just, erm, frames using javascript instead of a static page? I'm not sure I understand your question. Isn't what the OP is looking for? Being able to link to *and* frame other web sites? The OP asked if there is a web standards and CSS way to maintain his clients branding for remote sites, and while recognising that frames will achieve this wondered if there is an alternative. Frames do form part of HTML so, provided they validate, then that is standards design. There is no way to brand a remote site without frames or without having the branding served by the remote site e.g. via the refer header, or some such mechanism. The thread has moved on to suggest alternatives to frames in their entirety given the usability issues of frames, and the ethical issues around framing content which owned by a third party. The alternatives revolve around some variation of linking to the site. You solution is (from my cursory look) a script driven frames implementation, as opposed to a static file based one, and I questioned it because it didn't seem to add anything at this point and usually your contributions are both excellent and timely. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 17 Dec 2005, at 9:04 PM, Bob Schwartz wrote: Do you think you are being helpful? Believe me, you're not. I think I made it pretty clear that I was having a general rant, not talking directly to you Bob. I was just using your situation as a jumping off point. On 17 Dec 2005, at 9:06 AM, Terrence Wood wrote: Again, nothing personal Bob, this rant is for any designer who has clients wanting that 1998 look. And in fact, I have had off-list responses thanking me for my contribution to this thread. On 16 Dec 2005, at 11:44 PM, Bob Schwartz wrote: No can do Bob. I showed you the solution. End of story: solution, choices made, move on :) Yes Sir. Thank you Sir. I will just fold my table and slink away. It's been a honor being in your illustrious presence. I will return when I feel more worthy . Obviously you haven't found this thread helpful, but others have. I'm really not sure what you are looking for Bob, but clearly, we are two different people. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the kind of assignment that makes you want to scream
On 18 Dec 2005, at 9:16 AM, Ted Drake wrote: Can you imagine being the one stuck with creating this navigation scheme? Yes, but worse, can you imagine being stuck using this nav without a search function? Now, just to steal your thread Ted, will the fans of drop down menus please visit this site and actually try to use it. It is a pretty good example of what to avoid in a main navigation system. If you don't want to visit it here is my internal dialogue during the first 10 seconds visiting this site. Ever so slightly Amazon-esque pre the 'see all 32' tab, but with less categories. OK so far, what is Ted talking about? 3 levels of tabs? Hmm, anyone who's used Word should feel right at home. Hopefully they don't reorder the tabs like word when you click one. OK so far. [moves mouse to tab] Oh, how inspired! Tabs and dropdowns... Up to four levels to boot! Itch? My brain is melting! Where's the search? To be fair, if you turn off js and just use the tabs and the left hand navigation, the site navigation is pretty good. But dropdowns? Just say no. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Frames ?
Peter Levan said: I believe you can make use of the position: fixed css property to get some frame-like behaviour, eg applying it to a navigation div. However I don't know what the browser support is like. Not supported in IE/PC... and this doesn't solve the problem of having the branding appear with content residing on someone elses web site. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 15 Dec 2005, at 9:07 PM, Bob Schwartz wrote: For the record: I am past 1998 in my designs, but as I mentioned earlier, I don't do designs from 1998 because I want to, I have some clients who want that look. Like I said, it was not personal, and I didn't see you comment earlier - but still, it is a solution for future reference. There is another simple solution to sign off this mail if you don't want to read my rant. Again, nothing personal Bob, this rant is for any designer who has clients wanting that 1998 look. Should I tell them to go somewhere else? Maybe. If you really want to do web standard design because you believe in the benefits that it offers, then make a convincing case for your clients. You: The type of design you are asking for has been around for a while, it's a bit tired and doesn't perform all that well compared to more recent designs. You would prefer to go to market with a fresher design that works better wouldn't you? [say something else if you can't say this with *absolute sincerity*, and back it up] Them: Of course. [They will ask for clarification]. You: I'm glad you asked. [talk about the benefits of standards design, or how it's better to have a design that looks modern rather than one that looks like it's from last century] I usually find that the clients design preference is a proxy for some other ideals that they want to emulate. What is it about that design pattern that they like, and why? Is it actually the design or something about the company using that design that they want to emulate? More importantly, do the clients customers share those same opinions? Otherwise it is usually just a personal preference, nothing more... and luckily the web site is usually for the clients customers, not the client. It's helpful to get them to make that distinction. If you can't convince them then it really comes down a decision about if you need the work or not, or if you don't mind using tables for layout. If you really need to use a table and don't mind using tables for layout then use one. No sweat. It is usually better err on the pragmatic side ;-) Plus I don't want to get into the quirks of clients in this thread, I'd like to concentrate on finding a solution to a real problem that is as reliable (browser-wise) and as easy to implement as it is with a table, Sure... clients who needs them? But see the real problem is clients making design decisions that may not be appropriate for the shape of the market today (and tomorrow). And given that they aren't designers... how can they make effective design decisions, if you don't tell them what works best? In other words, Terrance, the goal is a design as described above and the solution can't be change the design, but has to be: attain the design without a table. My apologies, I never realised the visual design was non-negotiable. If it can't be done, I'd like to see a humble admission from the non-table people that maybe there is an instance in the real world where a table is not only OK, but probably THE solution so I can fell less unpure:-} about using a table to solve my problem. Why do you need a 'humble admission' from the 'non-table' people? Do these people claim that you can make designs in CSS that are exactly the same as a multicolumn multicolor layout created with tables? If you have a design that is non-negotiable then just do what it takes to to implement it. Personally, I would just make all the images 1000px tall and incorporate the background colors in the shorter images. Which browser can correctly render the following: 3 columns, no height defined and a background color different from that of the body in column 1 goes a 1000px high image in column 2 goes a 750px high image in column 3 goes a 500px high image the end result should be that all three columns are the same height in other words: below the image in column 1, no background color shows below the image in column 2, 250px of background color shows below the image in column 3, 500px of background color shows kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 17 Dec 2005, at 5:15 AM, Thomas Livingston wrote: A clients wants a design. And you want developers, etc. to tell clients 'no, you shouldn't do that because the only way to achieve that design is to use tables, and tables are bad so how about you go with a similar design but without a, b, and c. No, I don't want you to tell them the technical reason's of why one design is better than another. I want you to stop showing the client designs that are based on a *visual hack* from 10 years ago and to talk to them about design in terms of features that benefit *them* and which solve their *real* problems. My point was that a client isn't going to care how the design is achieved. Sure, we can tell them why table-less is better. We can talk all about standards. We agree on this. See above. But if that certain thing he/she likes about the design is gonna go away because you don't want to use tables, then the client might just go somewhere where he/she can get the desired design. If you can't get a client to desire your design, then they *are* better off going somewhere else. For the sake of both parties. Seriously, there is nothing about a tables based design that is so compelling that said 'certain thing' is lost using a tableless design. If there was, then CSS design would have never taken off, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's about getting the client excited about (desiring) something else: reduced cost of ownership, improved performance, better user experience, contemporary visual design, whatever, we all know what the benefits are - use the ones that push your clients buttons. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 17 Dec 2005, at 9:21 AM, Thomas Livingston wrote: If you have the complete and total luxury of doing whatever the heck you want no matter what your clients want or ask for, then you are a lucky man indeed. I work with constraints in a competitive environment just like everyone else does. I'm not perfect, but I'm so damn close it's scary ;-) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Thomas Livingston said: On Dec 16, 2005, at 3:42 PM, Terrence Wood wrote: No, I don't want you to tell them the technical reason's of why one design is better than another. Yes, you do. Did you not read the rest of the paragraph above Tom? I thought it was quite clear, but I'll put it another way: state the features and benefits in terms that appeal to the client in a way in which they understand. These are mostly quite different from how designers and developers see their work. It's also known as selling =) The whole basis to my point is that in our little virtual situation, it's too late. Maybe this time Tom... what about next time? What an opportunity! How valuable is a employee who knows how to innovate, has a deep seated concern for the well-being of the company, and contributes to the professional development of his colleagues? I understand the situation you are in, I do. You need to effect organizational change first. I have already said, if you must use a table, then use it. No sweat. I'm not advocating throwing out the baby with the bath water. I'm advocating actively changing something somewhere, rather than have change act upon you. Stand up and be counted. I believe in your situation *your* clients are the designers (?), account managers (?), and everyone else (?) who is involved in bringing a site to life and getting agreement from the people who are ultimately paying the bill. Get *these* people excited about standards design, again, in terms that appeal to them in a way that they will understand. Simple as that. Yes it is. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Nigel said: The idea that table based designs look like something from 1998 is ridiculous. Yes, it is, but fortunately no-one here made that claim. It's a figurative term, not literal. We're not talking about a specific look (like techno, goth, post-postmodern, deconstructed), rather a design pattern: a head/3 column/foot table layout with multicolored columns from the 'killer site' era is what we're referring to as a 1998 design. I've seen a lot excellent visual design which is implemented in table form (some well others not so well). Yes, there are a lot of nice looking table based visual designs, but do they work? And, this may surprise you but, designers aside, not too many people surf the net looking for nice examples of visual design - in the same way most people don't collect 3-fold brochures, or design annuals. Visual design, usually supports content. On the other hand some of what passes for design on this list may be great in terms of standards and accessibility but is laughable in terms of visual design. That's a bit insulting isn't it, you really have no idea about the quality of design of this list's members? See the point above. 'Design' that begins and ends in the visual plane is really just playing with colors and shapes. The point being, neither method has the monopoly on good design, certainly not CSS which has more than its fair share of bland cookie- cutter sites. True, there is as much poor design using standards as there is with table based layouts, again, no-one claimed otherwised. I strive to exploit the power of CSS but if due to real world constraints (including my knowledge of CSS) I'm forced to use a table, then so be it. As it happens I've only built 1 table based site this year and I have no shame and no regrets, Good on you. the site brings in millions of dollars a year. Yeah, so do google and amazon, both of which are pretty laughable in terms of visual design. And oh, pre-1998 ;-) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Thierry Koblentz said: think you can achieve what your client wants without building his site using frames. Create a dynamic frameset [1] [1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/5.asp Have I missed something or is this just, erm, frames using javascript instead of a static page? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Frames ?
Kevin Ross said: his logo and business presence is always maintained when the client visits a link to one of the manufacturers. Ugh. This is a bit pre-dot bomb isn't it? I'd wager that this type of site will only serve to diminish his online presence, not enhance it. Is there a benefit for to the actual client? Is this idea OK with the manufacturers represented (bandwidth, content copyright, existing or alternate preferred supplier agreements)? Wouldn't some acutal blurbage on his own site together with a link to the manufacturers be better (improved SEO, improved user experience, more control over content and ownership of his own brand)? Now, I am not a proponent of frames, but this sounds like frames to me. Correct. Is there a way to do this using Web Standards and CSS (my preference) ? Frames, including iframe form part of HTML 4, and if your site validates then that is standards design. The only other way I know of to have the 'business presence' appear as part of the manufacturers site is to talk with them and insert some server side code at their end based on a the referer header. If so, are there any examples of this out there ? Hijacking other sites in a frameset? Sure there are plenty of pron sites that do this (so I've been told). Or try wayback machine =) Thanks so much for any help you can give. OK. I apologise for my somewhat cynical and jaded answer in the middle here, but the first two paragraphs are worth expanding on. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
