Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 06:06:34AM -0400, Georgina wrote: from the xwin master himself: Around 21 o'clock on Jul 15, Trevor Woerner wrote: Could the mailing list options be set such that replies are by default sent back to the list, instead of by default sent to the sender? Yes.. I know reply-to considered harmful and all that, but I've never found it to be a problem... -keith As much as I respect Keith, and as much as the fact he's been hacking on X since the year I was born scares the crap out of me, I disagree with him here. I'm not a sheep, thankyouverymuch. :) -- Daniel Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kde.org - http://www.debian.org - http://www.xwin.org Configurability is always the best choice when it's pretty simple to implement -- Havoc Pennington, gnome-list pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
Maybe instead of directing them to the email address, you should have a message directing them to a FAQ / troubleshooting page? - Christian From: Egbert Eich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/07/15 Tue AM 08:04:30 EDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$ David Dawes writes: On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 05:21:43PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: Whenever the server terminates with a FatalError() it tells the user to send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This creates an enormous amount of traffic here even if it is a user problem has been answered several times already - like our all time favourite cannot find font 'fixed'. My conclusion from this is that the XFree86 server should handle this condition better. I thought that using the 'builtin' font stuff might have been a good way to do that, but unfortunately Juliusz has found that it's going to require more time/work than expected. This will only reduce the number of bug reports not eliminate it. Not all applications have a fallback heuristic all the way down to the 'fixed' font. If only this font is available many applications will refuse to run with an XRequest error on font or an even less conclusive error messages. This will then be posted here and it will be much harder to track down. Besides this, the same FatalError() is called due to other stupid user configuration bugs - like using the wrong driver. So we still have to deal with errors in configuration tools which we didn't provide or user stupidity when editing the config file. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86 ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 02:04:30PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: David Dawes writes: On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 05:21:43PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: Whenever the server terminates with a FatalError() it tells the user to send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This creates an enormous amount of traffic here even if it is a user problem has been answered several times already - like our all time favourite cannot find font 'fixed'. My conclusion from this is that the XFree86 server should handle this condition better. I thought that using the 'builtin' font stuff might have been a good way to do that, but unfortunately Juliusz has found that it's going to require more time/work than expected. This will only reduce the number of bug reports not eliminate it. Not all applications have a fallback heuristic all the way down to the 'fixed' font. If only this font is available many applications will refuse to run with an XRequest error on font or an even less conclusive error messages. This will then be posted here and it will be much harder to track down. Has anyone investigated the root cause of why there is no fixed font in the first place -- like why the font server isn't running? Was it never started (a vendor-specific configuration problem), or did it crash (a robustness problem with xfs)? David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
David Dawes writes: Has anyone investigated the root cause of why there is no fixed font in the first place -- like why the font server isn't running? Was it never started (a vendor-specific configuration problem), or did it crash (a robustness problem with xfs)? There seems to be a robustness problem with xfs - there was a bug report about a segfaulting xfs in bugzilla which I was unable to reproduce. The massive pileup of this problem seems to have another cause, though. I don't think it's the fontserver that's to blame as this problem hasn't happened before. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, David Dawes wrote: Has anyone investigated the root cause of why there is no fixed font in the first place -- like why the font server isn't running? Was it never started (a vendor-specific configuration problem), or did it crash (a robustness problem with xfs)? That's a good question. I always assumed it was a configuration problem since all the reports came from specific versions of Red Hat. Regardless, I think there is a fundamental robustness problem with the configuration used by these vendors. There is no reason to not have BOTH a font server and explicit font paths in the XF86Config. That way the X-server still runs if there isn't a font server, but if the font server is listed first, it will get used by default if it is running. Mark. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:12:35PM -0400, gabe f wrote: harmful in that it adds traffic to the list? I learn things by hearing replies that people might have (inadvertantly) made direct to the author. If the reply-to field was not munged people would have to choose to make the threads readable by the list ( like a news group). If they didn't think about it, or decided for some (shy/considerate) reason to make their responses not to the group, then we'd really miss out on a lot of knowledge. my 2 cents. They should be pressing the right button in their MUA; Reply-To is a field that says if you want to reply to the person who wrote this message, send mail here. Setting Reply-To list-wise, thus impedes personal replies (hint: not all traffic belongs on-list). -- Daniel Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kde.org - http://www.debian.org - http://www.xwin.org Configurability is always the best choice when it's pretty simple to implement -- Havoc Pennington, gnome-list pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:10:58PM -0600, Marc Aurele La France wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Andy Goth wrote: On Tuesday, July 8, 2003 12:05 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Daniel Stone writes: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ... which expresses an opinion not that widely held. Sorry, I lost about 10min worth of mail when I switched hosts my mail spooled on, and Egbert's reply must've been in that. Reply-To considered harmful is an opinion I hold, and it seems to be the opinion of most everyone I've encountered. The pressure should be on the MUA to do the right thing; either the user should set a Mail-Followup-To header, or you should reply to all per default, or you should just do a list reply. -- Daniel Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kde.org - http://www.debian.org - http://www.xwin.org Configurability is always the best choice when it's pretty simple to implement -- Havoc Pennington, gnome-list pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Tuesday, July 15, 2003 8:26 pm, Daniel Stone wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:10:58PM -0600, Marc Aurele La France wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Andy Goth wrote: On Tuesday, July 8, 2003 12:05 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Daniel Stone writes: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ... which expresses an opinion not that widely held. Sorry, I lost about 10min worth of mail when I switched hosts my mail spooled on, and Egbert's reply must've been in that. Reply-To considered harmful is an opinion I hold, and it seems to be the opinion of most everyone I've encountered. The pressure should be on the MUA to do the right thing; either the user should set a Mail-Followup-To header, or you should reply to all per default, or you should just do a list reply. Since everybody has a different opinion, I think it would make sense to set up the mail server so that people can choose whether or not they want Reply-To fields tacked onto emails they receive. This should make everybody (except the admin, heh) happy. Then only remaining debate would be what should be the default. Existing users should be set to Reply-To mode until they tell the server otherwise. As for new users, the subscribe page should have a checkbox (by default checked) enabling Reply-To fields. If there is also an email-only way to subscribe (I don't know), it should by default enable Reply-To, and the subscription confirmation message should explain the issues and how to change the Reply-To setting. Rationale: My observations indicate that it's mostly people with longtime experience who complain about Reply-To, so these people should be capable of follow simple instructions to change their account settings. It doesn't matter much to me if someone actually implements this suggestion. If it happens, I'll turn off Reply-To's for mails sent to me. If it doesn't happen, I won't complain. It may be a little ugly, but I know how to use my mua to send to the original poster despite Reply-To's setting, so long as he/she didn't have to set Reply-To in the first place. Yeah, I know I said I wouldn't reply, but I think that maybe, just maybe, the above might lead to a resolution nearly everybody can (grudgingly?) live with. -- Andy Goth | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://ioioio.net/ Engineers love to change things. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
David Dawes writes: I don't think it matters, because: 1. The original poster may read the answer via one of the archives of this list. How would we ever know? 2. If the original poster chooses to not follow up their question, that is their choice. Given that this is a volunteer group, not a paid support line, the onus must be on the user to follow up on their questions. 3. Most problems are not unique. If the answer doesn't benefit whoever first asked it, it may benefit someone else (either immediately or later via archives), and may contribute to the overall knowledge base of this group. Therefore I don't agree with the assessment that such answers end up in the trash. 4. XFree86 doesn't formally provide support. This list is available to aid to the community as a whole in being self-supporting. Looking at the huge amount of 'support spam' we receive we know that some of the assumptions are not true for the vast majority of postings. Issue 1.: We see the same question being asked over and over again. If these poster would consider email archives they whould not have ended up here in the first place. Issue 2.: Since I don't receive money for what I do here I would like to make sure that the time I invest to look over the support emails is at least not wasted. Issue 3.: I only partly agree with this. If I have to spent time to look thru log files (if they were provided) and ask the reporter for further information. This is of little value for the support community as long as I have not posted a solution - which is what I'm still trying to find. If we don't receive an answer we don't come any closer to a solution but just wasted our time. Issue 4.: I'm on this list mainly to catch bugs that hide behind support cases and to see if things can be improved so that people don't contact support so frequently. I also try to help out answering questions. I think I stated before that this list consumes a considerable amount of my spare time. To decide if the reason for a posting is a bug or a real problem or just 'user too stupid' one has to try to understand the description in a posting - which can be rather tedious if people tell their complete biographies or post in very poor English. Looking thru logs can also be time consuming. I would very much appreciate if we wouldn't point everyone with a problem to this mailing list right away but let this person look thru an FAQ *before* giving him the address of this list. Whenever the server terminates with a FatalError() it tells the user to send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This creates an enormous amount of traffic here even if it is a user problem has been answered several times already - like our all time favourite cannot find font 'fixed'. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 05:21:43PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: Whenever the server terminates with a FatalError() it tells the user to send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This creates an enormous amount of traffic here even if it is a user problem has been answered several times already - like our all time favourite cannot find font 'fixed'. My conclusion from this is that the XFree86 server should handle this condition better. I thought that using the 'builtin' font stuff might have been a good way to do that, but unfortunately Juliusz has found that it's going to require more time/work than expected. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Monday 14 July 2003 06:38 pm, Peter \ wrote: There is a wiki at http://xwin.org:9673/xwin/FrontPage Granted, it is not run by the XFree86 people but by xwin.org, a potentially competing group of people -- who have already showed that they are dissatisfied with the way XFree86 is run. Whether that's a bonus for you or the converse, I don't know :) Referring them to a TWiki page named BeforePostingYourProblem could lead Perhaps we should make such a page on the xwin wiki... Yes, I guess part of the idea would be that URL of the wiki (or one particular page), would be what gets put into the right place in X so that, when a problem occurs, they are referred there. can convince you that a TWiki is a good idea, someone volunteers a hosting site for it and a domain name, I would then look for some help in setting it up. The xwin wiki is currently zwiki which is not all that nice. Here is a snippet from the xwin IRC channel at irc.freenode.org a couple of days ago: keithp firefly: yeah, wiki markup is a pain. I'm expecting to switch wiki software in a week or so when I get another host for the xwin.org content; perhaps we should have a discussion about which wiki software to use instead of zwiki (which sucks pretty bad) I suspect many people would take exception to TWiki's markup, although I've used several and think TWiki's is reasonable. Any markup has a learning curve. In TWiki (and most other wikis, IIRC) you can get passable results without any markup -- i.e., just enter paragraphs separated by a blank line. So, yes, I would vote for and prefer TWiki, but others will have a preference for whatever wiki they know best. (TWiki does have full version control, the ability to do some password protection, tables, sketches, etc.) As a matter of fact I did suggest twiki because it seemed better in many ways. If you are volunteering to help set it up it would be wonderful :) Volunteering is one thing (no problem) having the expertise to set it up is another -- I'm willing to try to help. Contact addresses: #xwin on irc.freenode.org/irc.freenode.net http://xwin.org http://xwin.org:9673/xwin/frontpage http://xwin.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xwin -Peter PS: This doesn't change Egbert's other point, that the X server should not mention an email address but something like an URL, which contains the frequently asked questions, a searchable archive and only then, buried at the bottom, a mailing address. (I embellished a bit on what Egbert wrote but I don't think I'm far off from his intention) I agree 100% -- I'd suggest that URL be a specific page on the TWiki ;-) Randy Kramer (PS: I'll do some browsing around the xwin wiki, and may join the mailing list, but I think the key (as stated somewhere above or in a related post) is, when the Xserver reports an error, direct the user to a URL (like for a wiki) instead of the mailing list.) ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
David Dawes writes: On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 07:05:29PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: I have just checked the replies on the xfree86@ list. Most of them contain just the [EMAIL PROTECTED] addresses. I can't speak for others, but most of my replies (including this one) are like that by design. Yes, I know. But this is not the point I was trying to make. If Joe Newuser has problems getting XFree86 to run he may send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (After all it is advertised all over to do so), but he doesn't subscribe to the list (It says nowhere that he should). One of us wants to anser him, hits 'group reply' and because of the Reply-To: only containing the list the answer goes only to the list. But since the original author isn't subscribed he *doesn't* get the answer. It is good for the list to know that someone replied, but it doesn't help the author at all as he *never* sees this reply. This was the only point I was trying to make. The other discussions just obfuscated this. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Egbert Eich wrote: David Dawes writes: On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 07:05:29PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: I have just checked the replies on the xfree86@ list. Most of them contain just the [EMAIL PROTECTED] addresses. I can't speak for others, but most of my replies (including this one) are like that by design. Yes, I know. But this is not the point I was trying to make. If Joe Newuser has problems getting XFree86 to run he may send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (After all it is advertised all over to do so), but he doesn't subscribe to the list (It says nowhere that he should). If you attend a meeting and introduce a new agenda item, it behooves you to remain at that meeting at least until the new item is discussed. Not doing so is just plain rude, and wastes everyone else's time. Why do people think mailing lists are any different? One of us wants to anser him, hits 'group reply' and because of the Reply-To: only containing the list the answer goes only to the list. But since the original author isn't subscribed he *doesn't* get the answer. ... because he didn't stick around long enough to hear it. That's his choice. Remember: you cannot help those who will not help themselves. Marc. +--+---+ | Marc Aurele La France | work: 1-780-492-9310 | | Computing and Network Services | fax:1-780-492-1729 | | 352 General Services Building | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | University of Alberta +---+ | Edmonton, Alberta | | | T6G 2H1 | Standard disclaimers apply| | CANADA | | +--+---+ XFree86 Core Team member. ATI driver and X server internals. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
Marc Aurele La France writes: If you attend a meeting and introduce a new agenda item, it behooves you to remain at that meeting at least until the new item is discussed. Not doing so is just plain rude, and wastes everyone else's time. Why do people think mailing lists are any different? But we say nowhere, that this is a mailing list. It wasn't a real mailing list until a while ago, it was just an alias distributing the messages to a number of people. When the server crashes we say: Please report problems to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We don't say: Please visit http://www.xfree86.org/. to subscribe to our support mailing list. Furthermore I thought the idea of having an open list was to receive reports from people not subscribed. Therefore, I'd recommend to either find a solution or reconsider the policy to run [EMAIL PROTECTED] as an open mailing list. I would recommend to script that checks if the original author is subscribed and if not, add him to the Reply-To: field. I'd favor fixing the problem. One could have a script that rewrites the incoming mail as a procmail filter with the following heuristic: if (Reply-To: exists) don't do anything; if (From: is subscribed) don't do anything; else Add a: Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], address-from-From: One of us wants to anser him, hits 'group reply' and because of the Reply-To: only containing the list the answer goes only to the list. But since the original author isn't subscribed he *doesn't* get the answer. ... because he didn't stick around long enough to hear it. That's his choice. Remember: you cannot help those who will not help themselves. I have no idea who is subscribed or not. How should I know if I'm only wasting my time? Of course I could add everybody I reply to to the Cc: field. Just to get flamed why I do this. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 02:21:54PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: David Dawes writes: On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 07:05:29PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: I have just checked the replies on the xfree86@ list. Most of them contain just the [EMAIL PROTECTED] addresses. I can't speak for others, but most of my replies (including this one) are like that by design. Yes, I know. But this is not the point I was trying to make. If Joe Newuser has problems getting XFree86 to run he may send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (After all it is advertised all over to do so), but he doesn't subscribe to the list (It says nowhere that he should). When Joe Newuser does this, he gets an automatic reply telling him that he may miss replies to his message if he doesn't subscribe to the list. This was done when this list was made public in order to deal with exactly the problem you describe. From a policy point of view I think that this is preferable to adding mechanisms that discourage people from subscribing and thus from giving information back to the group. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 05:41:54PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: Marc Aurele La France writes: If you attend a meeting and introduce a new agenda item, it behooves you to remain at that meeting at least until the new item is discussed. Not doing so is just plain rude, and wastes everyone else's time. Why do people think mailing lists are any different? But we say nowhere, that this is a mailing list. It wasn't a real mailing list until a while ago, it was just an alias distributing the messages to a number of people. But we do say that (in an auto-reply), as I've said at least twice already. I don't think the following sequence is unreasonable: 1. user posts to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. user gets auto-reply about subscribing 3. user chooses to subscribe (or not) 4. user sees replies to their question (or not) David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 02:21:54PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: David Dawes writes: On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 07:05:29PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: I have just checked the replies on the xfree86@ list. Most of them contain just the [EMAIL PROTECTED] addresses. I can't speak for others, but most of my replies (including this one) are like that by design. Yes, I know. But this is not the point I was trying to make. If Joe Newuser has problems getting XFree86 to run he may send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (After all it is advertised all over to do so), but he doesn't subscribe to the list (It says nowhere that he should). One of us wants to anser him, hits 'group reply' and because of the Reply-To: only containing the list the answer goes only to the list. But since the original author isn't subscribed he *doesn't* get the answer. I believe that if your mailer doesn't either a) include the RT address in a group or b) ask, that your mailer is borken. But, third time now: the Answer Gang has *already fixed this problem*. Why isn't anyone interested? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, David Dawes wrote: When Joe Newuser does this, he gets an automatic reply telling him that he may miss replies to his message if he doesn't subscribe to the list. Disregard (parts of) my last email then. I apologize. -Peter If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that one of them is doing the thinking. -- Lyndon Baines Johnson ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
David Dawes writes: But we do say that (in an auto-reply), as I've said at least twice already. I only saw your second answer after writing the message that lead to this. I don't think the following sequence is unreasonable: 1. user posts to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. user gets auto-reply about subscribing 3. user chooses to subscribe (or not) 4. user sees replies to their question (or not) I don't deny that the idea to lurke more potential future supporters to this list has its merits. However do we have any idea how many people actually subscribe and see the answers and how many answers are just written for the trash? If the majority of our answers don't reach their desination we should definitely think about a different support concept. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
sorry, posted this before reading all of the emails in my inbox :) On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:21 PM, gabe f wrote: maybe you've been on the list for a long time, but the list automatically gives you such info when you post to it for the first time. On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 08:21 AM, Egbert Eich wrote: David Dawes writes: If Joe Newuser has problems getting XFree86 to run he may send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (After all it is advertised all over to do so), but he doesn't subscribe to the list (It says nowhere that he should). ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86 ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 08:39:14PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: Jay R. Ashworth writes: On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 02:21:54PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: I believe that if your mailer doesn't either a) include the RT address in a group or b) ask, that your mailer is borken. No, I don't think it's broken. It is doing exactly what is recommended in RFC 822. RFC 2822, s3.6.3, graf 2. It explicitly says that it does *not* control, in either case. So I stand my by (wildly off-topic :-) opinion. :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 07:33:42PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: David Dawes writes: But we do say that (in an auto-reply), as I've said at least twice already. I only saw your second answer after writing the message that lead to this. I don't think the following sequence is unreasonable: 1. user posts to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. user gets auto-reply about subscribing 3. user chooses to subscribe (or not) 4. user sees replies to their question (or not) I don't deny that the idea to lurke more potential future supporters to this list has its merits. However do we have any idea how many people actually subscribe and see the answers and how many answers are just written for the trash? If the majority of our answers don't reach their desination we should definitely think about a different support concept. I don't think it matters, because: 1. The original poster may read the answer via one of the archives of this list. How would we ever know? 2. If the original poster chooses to not follow up their question, that is their choice. Given that this is a volunteer group, not a paid support line, the onus must be on the user to follow up on their questions. 3. Most problems are not unique. If the answer doesn't benefit whoever first asked it, it may benefit someone else (either immediately or later via archives), and may contribute to the overall knowledge base of this group. Therefore I don't agree with the assessment that such answers end up in the trash. 4. XFree86 doesn't formally provide support. This list is available to aid to the community as a whole in being self-supporting. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Tuesday, July 8, 2003 12:05 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Daniel Stone writes: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- Andy Goth | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://ioioio.net/ End communication. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Andy Goth wrote: On Tuesday, July 8, 2003 12:05 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Daniel Stone writes: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ... which expresses an opinion not that widely held. Marc. +--+---+ | Marc Aurele La France | work: 1-780-492-9310 | | Computing and Network Services | fax:1-780-492-1729 | | 352 General Services Building | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | University of Alberta +---+ | Edmonton, Alberta | | | T6G 2H1 | Standard disclaimers apply| | CANADA | | +--+---+ XFree86 Core Team member. ATI driver and X server internals. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:31:16PM -0500, Andy Goth wrote: On Tuesday, July 8, 2003 12:05 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Daniel Stone writes: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html This comes up from time to time, and has been for years. There's no point rehashing that particular matter of personal preference again. If you want to force your own reply-to, you can. It only gets set to the list if you don't provide your own (this was broken, but has been fixed again). I'll continue to use mutt's 'l' reply method most of the time, which sends replies to the list regardless of how the reply-to is set. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:10:58PM -0600, Marc Aurele La France wrote: Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ... which expresses an opinion not that widely held. No, it's that widely held. Been on mailing lists since I had a bang path. It's harmful. Believe me. Cheers, -- ...!petsd!peora!usfbobo!usfvax2!jc3b21!jc3b22!jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
harmful in that it adds traffic to the list? I learn things by hearing replies that people might have (inadvertantly) made direct to the author. If the reply-to field was not munged people would have to choose to make the threads readable by the list ( like a news group). If they didn't think about it, or decided for some (shy/considerate) reason to make their responses not to the group, then we'd really miss out on a lot of knowledge. my 2 cents. On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 08:40 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:10:58PM -0600, Marc Aurele La France wrote: Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ... which expresses an opinion not that widely held. No, it's that widely held. Been on mailing lists since I had a bang path. It's harmful. Believe me. Cheers, -- ...!petsd!peora!usfbobo!usfvax2!jc3b21!jc3b22!jra -- Jay R. Ashworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86 ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 08:40:39PM -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:10:58PM -0600, Marc Aurele La France wrote: Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ... which expresses an opinion not that widely held. No, it's that widely held. Been on mailing lists since I had a bang path. It's harmful. Believe me. It's still an *opinion*. 11 years of dealing with XFree86 mailing lists have shown me that for everyone who agrees with it, there is at least one who disagrees. The biggest difference is that those who agree with it are more likely to be so fanatical about it that they'll use their last breath to insist that it's a right vs wrong issue rather than an *opinion*. No amount of rehashing this tired old topic will serve any useful purpose. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:19:12PM -0400, David Dawes wrote: No, it's that widely held. Been on mailing lists since I had a bang path. It's harmful. Believe me. It's still an *opinion*. 11 years of dealing with XFree86 mailing lists have shown me that for everyone who agrees with it, there is at least one who disagrees. The biggest difference is that those who agree with it are more likely to be so fanatical about it that they'll use their last breath to insist that it's a right vs wrong issue rather than an *opinion*. No amount of rehashing this tired old topic will serve any useful purpose. It's not my list. It *IS* probably a good idea to point out that the list does such munging at the point of signup, though. There have been divorces. No, I'm not kidding. ... Yeah, an X Window list is *not* all that likely to cause a divorce. :-) And actually, no, it's not an opinion; it's a cost benefit analysis. *I* make the costs much higher than the benefits, and *that* is an opinion. A professional opinion; yes, I *do* make a living at this Internet stuff. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
So then, why do you subscribe to the list, you could just read the emails on the website, thereby saving all of that internet traffic, by only viewing the email body text that appealed to you by its subject, and you wouldn't have to deal with those harmful vacation auto-replies, either? the internet has more than one field, by the way. I doubt you're in a personnel/user related area. On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 09:21 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: It's not my list. It *IS* probably a good idea to point out that the list does such munging at the point of signup, though. There have been divorces. No, I'm not kidding. ... Yeah, an X Window list is *not* all that likely to cause a divorce. :-) And actually, no, it's not an opinion; it's a cost benefit analysis. *I* make the costs much higher than the benefits, and *that* is an opinion. A professional opinion; yes, I *do* make a living at this Internet stuff. Cheers, -- jra ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:12 pm, David Dawes wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:31:16PM -0500, Andy Goth wrote: On Tuesday, July 8, 2003 12:05 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Daniel Stone writes: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html This comes up from time to time, and has been for years. There's no point rehashing that particular matter of personal preference again. Sorry I brought it up... :^( I didn't mean to start anything. I just happened to remember seeing the words munge alongside reply-to and thought there might be a reference. I will not reply to this thread again. -- Andy Goth | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://ioioio.net/ End communication. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 12:42:05AM -0500, Andy Goth wrote: On Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:12 pm, David Dawes wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:31:16PM -0500, Andy Goth wrote: On Tuesday, July 8, 2003 12:05 pm, Egbert Eich wrote: Daniel Stone writes: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Daniel is probably referring to: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html This comes up from time to time, and has been for years. There's no point rehashing that particular matter of personal preference again. Sorry I brought it up... :^( I didn't mean to start anything. I just happened to remember seeing the words munge alongside reply-to and thought there might be a reference. I will not reply to this thread again. Don't worry, Andy; it's me they're yelling at. :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
Mark Vojkovich writes: On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Daniel Stone wrote: On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 12:07:10PM +0100, Aldous Everard wrote: Is this the sort of emails you want to this list? Suggest blocking CheapWarez If every single spammer to this list got blocked, it'd take half an hour for every message to pass the killfile check. I'd like to know how it made it to this list in the first place. This is a member's only list. You can't post unless you subscribe. Are spammers subscribing? Or do they just happen to spam with forged From addresses that happen to be subscribed? No, [EMAIL PROTECTED] isn't a members only list. It is for everybody to send in support questions. We don't require these people to subscribe themselves. One could probably think about a 'opt-in' method where people who are not subscribed have to respond to notification before their message is sent to the list. At least for me this creates the problem that when I resond to an email on this list (doing a 'respond all') my mailer only uses the addresses from the Reply-To: and the Cc: fields. If the original author hasn't added himself to Cc: and is not on the list he will not get the reply unless I add it by hand - which I often forget. I don't know if any of this can be fixed in mailman but I'm sure it could be fixed by some mail pre- and post-processing. If we can agree that we want something like this and on what we want we can probably find a volunteer who'd hack this for us. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:03:49AM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: No, [EMAIL PROTECTED] isn't a members only list. It is for everybody to send in support questions. We don't require these people to subscribe themselves. One could probably think about a 'opt-in' method where people who are not subscribed have to respond to notification before their message is sent to the list. Normally I suggest spamassassin, but the only false positives I've seen in the last six months have all been posts to [EMAIL PROTECTED] :\ At least for me this creates the problem that when I resond to an email on this list (doing a 'respond all') my mailer only uses the addresses from the Reply-To: and the Cc: fields. Which mailer do you use? Mutt, KMail and Evolution (the former is my primary, the latter my secondary, mail client) all deal with this situation perfectly. I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. If the original author hasn't added himself to Cc: and is not on the list he will not get the reply unless I add it by hand - which I often forget. I don't know if any of this can be fixed in mailman but I'm sure it could be fixed by some mail pre- and post-processing. Umm, it's an MUA thing. The list manager is *not* to dictate to the MUA what to do - group reply should send to all of From, To and Cc, excluding yourself. In Mutt, the list of your addresses is maintained by 'set alternates regexp'. If we can agree that we want something like this and on what we want we can probably find a volunteer who'd hack this for us. I think you've come up with the wrong solution to the wrong problem, honestly; what mailer do you use? -- Daniel Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kde.org - http://www.debian.org - http://www.xwin.org Configurability is always the best choice when it's pretty simple to implement -- Havoc Pennington, gnome-list pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:03:49AM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: At least for me this creates the problem that when I resond to an email on this list (doing a 'respond all') my mailer only uses the addresses from the Reply-To: and the Cc: fields. If the original author hasn't added himself to Cc: and is not on the list he will not get the reply unless I add it by hand - which I often forget. I don't know if any of this can be fixed in mailman but I'm sure it could be fixed by some mail pre- and post-processing. This is pretty much exactly how the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list works -- you can send messages to it whilst unsubscribed, and it makes sure the headers will include you in the CC list. It's scripted, and quite spiffy. I'm pretty sure it would be available, if y'all were interested in it. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
Daniel Stone writes: On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:03:49AM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: No, [EMAIL PROTECTED] isn't a members only list. It is for everybody to send in support questions. We don't require these people to subscribe themselves. One could probably think about a 'opt-in' method where people who are not subscribed have to respond to notification before their message is sent to the list. Normally I suggest spamassassin, but the only false positives I've seen in the last six months have all been posts to [EMAIL PROTECTED] :\ We do run spamassassin. Guess what would happen if we didn't. At least for me this creates the problem that when I resond to an email on this list (doing a 'respond all') my mailer only uses the addresses from the Reply-To: and the Cc: fields. Which mailer do you use? Mutt, KMail and Evolution (the former is my primary, the latter my secondary, mail client) all deal with this situation perfectly. I'm using vm in xemacs. In your message the Reply-To: field form the original message appears in Cc: I also hope like hell Mailman isn't munging Reply-To, because that's just *wrong*. Hm, I don't know what you would call munging, it puts the list address into the Reply-To. Umm, it's an MUA thing. The list manager is *not* to dictate to the MUA what to do - group reply should send to all of From, To and Cc, excluding yourself. In Mutt, the list of your addresses is maintained by 'set alternates regexp'. I have just checked the replies on the xfree86@ list. Most of them contain just the [EMAIL PROTECTED] addresses. If we can agree that we want something like this and on what we want we can probably find a volunteer who'd hack this for us. I think you've come up with the wrong solution to the wrong problem, honestly; what mailer do you use? According to RFC 822 my mailer does the right thing. The Reply-To: field has precedence over the From: field. Egbert. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
[XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
CheapWarez.com If you don't have enough money to buy needed software or think desired software isn't worth the price, then this service is right for you. We make software to be near you. Order any software you need for a low price. For example if you go into a shop and buy Windows XP Pro, for about $299! Some popular products from our price list: All programs you can download or order on cd-rom by airmail. 15$ Adobe Premiere 6.5 40$ Alias Wavefront Maya 5.0 Unlimited 40$ AutoCAD 2004 30$ Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2004 15$ Cakewalk Sonar XL 2.2 20$ Canopus ProCoder 1.01.35 40$ Corel Draw 11 Graphic Suite 20$ Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred 7.0 15$ Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 6.1 20$ Macromedia Fireworks MX 6 20$ Macromedia Flash MX 15$ Microsoft FrontPage 2002 with SP2 15$ Microsoft Money 2003 Deluxe 50$ Microsoft Office XP Professional with SP2 30$ Microsoft Project 2002 Pro 15$ Microsoft Publisher XP 2002 20$ Microsoft Visio for Enterprise Architects 2003 40$ Microsoft Windows XP Corporate Edition with SP1 30$ Microsoft Windows XP Professional 15$ Symantec Antivirus Corporate Edition 8.1 April 2003 15$ Norton SystemWorks 2003 (1 cd) 20$ OmniPage Pro 12 20$ Pinnacle Impression DVD Pro 2.2 (1 cd) 15$ PowerQuest Drive Image 7.0 15$ Ulead DVD Workshop 1.2 40$ Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect (3 cd) 15$ Winfax PRO 10.02 and, more, more. more!! Total today is 1381 products. price list - http://cheapwarez.com/p/ search - http://cheapwarez.com/e/ Mac users. We have some software for you too!!! Check it: http://cheapwarez.com/p/mac.shtml 8276876698 ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
Is this the sort of emails you want to this list? Suggest blocking CheapWarez On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 19:52, D.gray wrote: CheapWarez.com If you don't have enough money to buy needed software or think desired software isn't worth the price, then this service is right for you. We make software to be near you. Order any software you need for a low price. For example if you go into a shop and buy Windows XP Pro, for about $299! Some popular products from our price list: All programs you can download or order on cd-rom by airmail. 15$ Adobe Premiere 6.5 40$ Alias Wavefront Maya 5.0 Unlimited 40$ AutoCAD 2004 30$ Autodesk Architectural Desktop 2004 15$ Cakewalk Sonar XL 2.2 20$ Canopus ProCoder 1.01.35 40$ Corel Draw 11 Graphic Suite 20$ Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred 7.0 15$ Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 6.1 20$ Macromedia Fireworks MX 6 20$ Macromedia Flash MX 15$ Microsoft FrontPage 2002 with SP2 15$ Microsoft Money 2003 Deluxe 50$ Microsoft Office XP Professional with SP2 30$ Microsoft Project 2002 Pro 15$ Microsoft Publisher XP 2002 20$ Microsoft Visio for Enterprise Architects 2003 40$ Microsoft Windows XP Corporate Edition with SP1 30$ Microsoft Windows XP Professional 15$ Symantec Antivirus Corporate Edition 8.1 April 2003 15$ Norton SystemWorks 2003 (1 cd) 20$ OmniPage Pro 12 20$ Pinnacle Impression DVD Pro 2.2 (1 cd) 15$ PowerQuest Drive Image 7.0 15$ Ulead DVD Workshop 1.2 40$ Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect (3 cd) 15$ Winfax PRO 10.02 and, more, more. more!! Total today is 1381 products. price list - http://cheapwarez.com/p/ search - http://cheapwarez.com/e/ Mac users. We have some software for you too!!! Check it: http://cheapwarez.com/p/mac.shtml 8276876698 ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86 -- Aldous Everard [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 12:07:10PM +0100, Aldous Everard wrote: Is this the sort of emails you want to this list? Suggest blocking CheapWarez If every single spammer to this list got blocked, it'd take half an hour for every message to pass the killfile check. -- Daniel Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kde.org - http://www.debian.org - http://www.xwin.org Configurability is always the best choice when it's pretty simple to implement -- Havoc Pennington, gnome-list pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [XFree86] Xpert, Any software just for 15$ - 40$
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Daniel Stone wrote: On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 12:07:10PM +0100, Aldous Everard wrote: Is this the sort of emails you want to this list? Suggest blocking CheapWarez If every single spammer to this list got blocked, it'd take half an hour for every message to pass the killfile check. I'd like to know how it made it to this list in the first place. This is a member's only list. You can't post unless you subscribe. Are spammers subscribing? Or do they just happen to spam with forged From addresses that happen to be subscribed? Mark. ___ XFree86 mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xfree86
