[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Merle, The ride is always rocky. Culture has a way of surviving. And of being transmitted. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: hi joe thank you for the clarification..hitler tried to stamp out culture and impose his own ideas...so did stalin as did mao...the rocky ride is in the NOW merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Hi, Merle, In this usage, the Culture implied is Literature, History, Music, Language, Philosophy, Art, Natural Science, Religion, and so on. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: group: not all culture is worthwhile..clarify please.. we are now in financial totalitarianism regime world wide... bad culture here... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
hi joe thank you for the clarification..hitler tried to stamp out culture and impose his own ideas...so did stalin as did mao...the rocky ride is in the NOW merle Hi, Merle, In this usage, the Culture implied is Literature, History, Music, Language, Philosophy, Art, Natural Science, Religion, and so on. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: group: not all culture is worthwhile..clarify please.. we are now in financial totalitarianism regime world wide... bad culture here...
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
group..some parents and teachers too are bad news... merle Bill and Joe, Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, not teach you Zen. Apparently the've failed on both accounts? :-) Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Joe wrote: Bill!, Well observed. Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and teachers and by Culture reminds me of the efforts by some who engage in electioneering. They sometimes try to enhance to an extreme their semblance of independence and self-reliance. A funny instance of this came up during a discussion in the midst of the selection of candidates during the recent Presidential campaign in USA. One commentator observed that a certain candidate seemed to want people to believe that: ...he himself had built the log cabin that he was born in. ;-) Having a good laugh again today, recalling this, in the present discussion about Zen teaching and teachers. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, You asked, Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to start that process. I don't remember.
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
group: not all culture is worthwhile..clarify please.. we are now in financial totalitarianism regime world wide... bad culture here...merle Bill!, Well observed. Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and teachers and by Culture reminds me of the efforts by some who engage in electioneering. They sometimes try to enhance to an extreme their semblance of independence and self-reliance. A funny instance of this came up during a discussion in the midst of the selection of candidates during the recent Presidential campaign in USA. One commentator observed that a certain candidate seemed to want people to believe that: ...he himself had built the log cabin that he was born in. ;-) Having a good laugh again today, recalling this, in the present discussion about Zen teaching and teachers. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, You asked, Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to start that process. I don't remember.
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
group: some need to be led all their lives..they are fearful of being left to discover themselves... as i say born knowing we forget our origins in the razzlemattazle of life..merle Bill, As if reality didn't slap you around all the time? The problem with you guy's insistence on having a teacher is it easily becomes a sop and and an excuse for not doing the work yourself. Insistence on a teacher is the sign of a dependent personality, and as long as you wait for a teacher to enlighten you you will never be enlightened... There is only one teacher and that is reality itself Sometimes it helps for someone else to point to reality to help you recognize it. But for many people so long as they fix their gaze on the teacher they are blind to the reality all around them. Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and Edgar, I thought it was a good response also. It expanded on Edgar's simile of breathing adding the caveat I wanted - which is most need a little slap on the butt to get them started. I think it is the same with zen practice. A good teacher can certainly give you that slap and more. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Oh, come on! It was a good comeback.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Bill!,br/br/And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Mike and Bill, Zen is not about schoolboy comebacks. All Bill's response achieved was to convince his ego he didn't have to deal with the issue I raised... Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 12:36 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Touché! Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:46:17 AM Edgar, You asked, Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to start that process. I don't remember. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Agreed... An eminently rational statement Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:27 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through teaching. It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe,
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Mike, Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back rather than get out of the way... Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM Edgar, There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through teaching. It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar,br/br/And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on it.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Oh, come on! It was a good comeback.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Mike, And your ego just commented on it for the 3rd or 4th time this morning... Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 12:24:26 PM Mike, Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back rather than get out of the way... Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM Edgar, There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through teaching. It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Bill, As if reality didn't slap you around all the time? The problem with you guy's insistence on having a teacher is it easily becomes a sop and and an excuse for not doing the work yourself. Insistence on a teacher is the sign of a dependent personality, and as long as you wait for a teacher to enlighten you you will never be enlightened... There is only one teacher and that is reality itself Sometimes it helps for someone else to point to reality to help you recognize it. But for many people so long as they fix their gaze on the teacher they are blind to the reality all around them. Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and Edgar, I thought it was a good response also. It expanded on Edgar's simile of breathing adding the caveat I wanted - which is most need a little slap on the butt to get them started. I think it is the same with zen practice. A good teacher can certainly give you that slap and more. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Oh, come on! It was a good comeback.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Yeh, but who's counting?...br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
#5! Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 10:18 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Yeh, but who's counting?... Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:03:24 PM Mike, And your ego just commented on it for the 3rd or 4th time this morning... Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 12:24:26 PM Mike, Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back rather than get out of the way... Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM Edgar, There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through teaching. It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Brilliant!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Bill!, Well observed. Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and teachers and by Culture reminds me of the efforts by some who engage in electioneering. They sometimes try to enhance to an extreme their semblance of independence and self-reliance. A funny instance of this came up during a discussion in the midst of the selection of candidates during the recent Presidential campaign in USA. One commentator observed that a certain candidate seemed to want people to believe that: ...he himself had built the log cabin that he was born in. ;-) Having a good laugh again today, recalling this, in the present discussion about Zen teaching and teachers. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, You asked, Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to start that process. I don't remember. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Bill and Joe, Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, not teach you Zen. Apparently the've failed on both accounts? :-) Edgar On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Joe wrote: Bill!, Well observed. Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and teachers and by Culture reminds me of the efforts by some who engage in electioneering. They sometimes try to enhance to an extreme their semblance of independence and self-reliance. A funny instance of this came up during a discussion in the midst of the selection of candidates during the recent Presidential campaign in USA. One commentator observed that a certain candidate seemed to want people to believe that: ...he himself had built the log cabin that he was born in. ;-) Having a good laugh again today, recalling this, in the present discussion about Zen teaching and teachers. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, You asked, Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to start that process. I don't remember.
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Hi, Edgar, Parents and family teach us a lot more than thinking. I went to a Zen teacher to teach me Zen practice. And learned with others, there. It's our way. ;-) (the Zen school has always emphasized practicing together). --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill and Joe, Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, not teach you Zen. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, hi, again, Yes, I put it this way to show who's in, and who's out. Anything to needle you and give you occasion to study-up on our sect. You've clearly never done your homework, here, nor done a proper study with teacher and sangha. But everyone here who has in fact practiced -- and does practice -- knows this already from how you've carried on in the bulk of what you've written, here. We are not amused. ;-) But, sympathetic. My voice is not official; it is most congenial. And encouraging! This Walter Cronkite of the Zen Forum thus signs off: That's the way it is! cheers, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Our? Who's our? Who do you think you are the official voice for? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, You asked, Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to start that process. I don't remember. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that... Current Book Discussion: any
RE: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Touché!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that...
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, You write as tho you have caught your self engaged in self-deception, or partial blindness of your own reality. For those of us who have a tendency to prefer things to be slightly other than they are, or who have a lifetime of not seeing certain parts of our functioning, ir can be useful to have a teacher. It is harder to fool more people at the same time. Plus, having a teacher to bounce things off of is pleasant. YMMV of course, and perhaps my own self unawareness is much higher than the average. Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 11, 2013 3:57 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that...
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Chris, I have no idea what you are saying here. Or where this seemingly irrational conclusion came from. Or are you projecting? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 11:09 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Edgar, You write as tho you have caught your self engaged in self-deception, or partial blindness of your own reality. For those of us who have a tendency to prefer things to be slightly other than they are, or who have a lifetime of not seeing certain parts of our functioning, ir can be useful to have a teacher. It is harder to fool more people at the same time. Plus, having a teacher to bounce things off of is pleasant. YMMV of course, and perhaps my own self unawareness is much higher than the average. Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 11, 2013 3:57 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori.
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
I mean any human who has some psychological blindness to parts of their current reality can benefit from interactions with another person, especially in tasks where the tendency to fool yourself is a factor. That's why teachers are generally useful. Your true statement about teachers not being needed to realize freedom seems to ignore that part of my humanity, the part that can't handle the truth. I can’t assume you have a tendency to fool yourself, but I am confident most people do. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 11, 2013 9:14 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, I have no idea what you are saying here. Or where this seemingly irrational conclusion came from. Or are you projecting? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 11:09 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Edgar, You write as tho you have caught your self engaged in self-deception, or partial blindness of your own reality. For those of us who have a tendency to prefer things to be slightly other than they are, or who have a lifetime of not seeing certain parts of our functioning, ir can be useful to have a teacher. It is harder to fool more people at the same time. Plus, having a teacher to bounce things off of is pleasant. YMMV of course, and perhaps my own self unawareness is much higher than the average. Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 11, 2013 3:57 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail!
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Agreed... Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I mean any human who has some psychological blindness to parts of their current reality can benefit from interactions with another person, especially in tasks where the tendency to fool yourself is a factor. That's why teachers are generally useful. Your true statement about teachers not being needed to realize freedom seems to ignore that part of my humanity, the part that can't handle the truth. I can’t assume you have a tendency to fool yourself, but I am confident most people do. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 11, 2013 9:14 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, I have no idea what you are saying here. Or where this seemingly irrational conclusion came from. Or are you projecting? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 11:09 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Edgar, You write as tho you have caught your self engaged in self-deception, or partial blindness of your own reality. For those of us who have a tendency to prefer things to be slightly other than they are, or who have a lifetime of not seeing certain parts of our functioning, ir can be useful to have a teacher. It is harder to fool more people at the same time. Plus, having a teacher to bounce things off of is pleasant. YMMV of course, and perhaps my own self unawareness is much higher than the average. Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 11, 2013 3:57 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no longer relevant One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born? Edgar On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/her verification that you have passed the koan. After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to prepare you for becoming a teacher. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Bill, There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature. But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... Edgar On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that...
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that... Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 10:30 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Well, that's IT (that DOES it). You are OFF my Christmas Card list! ;-) Humbug right back, Your'n truly, -- Hose-B Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Bah! Humbug! Edgar
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Chris, Don't confuse crazy with compassionate! ;-) I know you don't. I've gotten swift swats from Sheng Yen on occasion, in Interview (dokusan). Sometimes to compliment, and sometimes to chastise, but usually to encourage. You know how it goes. Or I hope so. Especially with a teacher from an Old Country, often a physical communication is very meaningful, and ...lasting. My teacher was not proficient in English, for example. Often, we used sign language, together. I once had an entire interview with him where I used a pocket full of stones and moved them around on the floor, to ask him a question! His answer was meaningful and decisive. It made the 7-day retreat, for me (another minor awakening, after the first big one). I stay, lovingly, in that lineage. They're training me in Florida and Taiwan to act as a lay, un-transmitted Dharma Teacher, especially in the details of holding 7-day Ch'an retreat, so important to our practice. I won't let them down. Shih Fu is gone, but not really. I will never let the Old Man down. He knew this. Sheng Yen was Chinese, but, BTW, in Japan, Roshi just means Old Man. He never seemed old to me, not even when he was old. Blessings to you and the family. You ARE blessed. Me, I just have fur-kids: Cats! Please take great care of yourself and the fam.! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I've never heard you describe your lineage as crazy, Joe. My practise at the moment - reading a Percy Jackson book to a very tired 8.5 year old who is fighting the bed time ritual with upset and so on. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, I agree with Joe here. All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to BRING me Mu and SHOW me Mu - certainly not explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means. In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content. This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one time. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Edgar, If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. Anyone who passes the koan What is the sound of One Hand?, makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all hung up about? Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans. Either, no need, or no aptitude. From my point of view, after a point, it was: No need for gumdrops along the way. Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. Hail! I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this way, in some life. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as an orthodox zennist. You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a satori. But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does... You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed something but to discard it... Even Bill knows that... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Bill, O boy, here we go again Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature Edgar On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Suresh, et al... I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but eventually will just 'tune them out'. The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness.
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 4:40 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, O boy, here we go again Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature Edgar On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Suresh, et al... I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but eventually will just 'tune them out'. The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness.
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Ok, but would you agree that Bill's descrion of classical koan training is accurate - the koan is used to silence the generation of thoughts and words? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 6:47 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, I've been dealing with the quantum koan all my life. Reality is the ultimate koan... Solve that one and you've got it! Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 4:40 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, O boy, here we go again Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature Edgar On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Suresh, et al... I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but eventually will just 'tune them out'. The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness.
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Chris, That's the theory, but it's only one of several types of first steps for beginners to (hopefully) get a little satori experience by temporarily exhausting their brains trying to figure out something that doesn't have an easy solution. The other approach is to actually SOLVE the koan and experience the Buddha Nature in reality that way... After that one eventually realizes that Buddha Nature is the essence of everything including intellect... Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Ok, but would you agree that Bill's descrion of classical koan training is accurate - the koan is used to silence the generation of thoughts and words? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 6:47 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, I've been dealing with the quantum koan all my life. Reality is the ultimate koan... Solve that one and you've got it! Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 4:40 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, O boy, here we go again Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature Edgar On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Suresh, et al... I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but eventually will just 'tune them out'. The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness.
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Chris and Bill, Example of the solution of a koan. What's the sound of one hand clapping? The solution is the recognition that language is capable of expressing irrational meaningless syntax. Therefore language itself isn't truth unless what it expresses is consistent with the overall consistency of the world of forms. Therefore you have to realize Buddha Nature not in individual English statements but in the consistency of the world of forms. What is consistent with the whole is reality rather than illusion and thus is a clearer manifestation of Buddha Nature. Realizing that is the solution Then you understand that whoever gave you this koan is a either a dunce or just wanted to be an obnoxious pest or wanted to perpetuate the myth of comic book Zen or waste your time. Look for reality in the consistency of the world of forms rather than the INconsistency of individual koans which have zero to do with reality. Another example. 'Show me your original face before you were born'. This one is easy. The answer is Buddha Nature. Just pick anything at all and point it out to reveal its Buddha Nature and you've solved it! All koans have solutions. They just aren't what ordinary mind might look for... Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:47 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Chris, I've been dealing with the quantum koan all my life. Reality is the ultimate koan... Solve that one and you've got it! Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 4:40 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, O boy, here we go again Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature Edgar On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Suresh, et al... I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but eventually will just 'tune them out'. The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness.
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, Bill!, Chris, Group, The actual (real) koan reads: What is the sound of one hand? The clapping is not original, and is incorrect to insert. Not only incorrect, but misleading. It's a 1950's bit of b.s. appended by some American or English illiterate non-practitioner. The koan has nothing to do with hands, nor with sounds, either. That's not obvious, perhaps, until you actually work hard with this koan in your practice, and experience a breakthrough. When you experience the breakthrough, you will know the sound of one hand. And you can demonstrate it. And you had better! ;-) --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris and Bill, Example of the solution of a koan. What's the sound of one hand clapping? The solution is the recognition that language is capable of expressing irrational meaningless syntax. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Joe, Bah! Humbug! Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 5:46 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, Chris, Group, The actual (real) koan reads: What is the sound of one hand? The clapping is not original, and is incorrect to insert. Not only incorrect, but misleading. It's a 1950's bit of b.s. appended by some American or English illiterate non-practitioner. The koan has nothing to do with hands, nor with sounds, either. That's not obvious, perhaps, until you actually work hard with this koan in your practice, and experience a breakthrough. When you experience the breakthrough, you will know the sound of one hand. And you can demonstrate it. And you had better! ;-) --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris and Bill, Example of the solution of a koan. What's the sound of one hand clapping? The solution is the recognition that language is capable of expressing irrational meaningless syntax. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
I was going to say that in all my conversations with people studying koans and all my reading of zen, I have never before run into a claim of solving a koan. However, in fact, there is a book called After Zen about a Dutch detective who becomes disillusioned with Zen (Rinzai school, as practised in Canada at a remote monastery) and who found his tradition to be a bit abusive, which has a scene where the author and another former student discuss how demonstrating anger is necessary for the teacher to pass a student. Cheers, Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 Chris, That's the theory, but it's only one of several types of first steps for beginners to (hopefully) get a little satori experience by temporarily exhausting their brains trying to figure out something that doesn't have an easy solution. The other approach is to actually SOLVE the koan and experience the Buddha Nature in reality that way... After that one eventually realizes that Buddha Nature is the essence of everything including intellect... Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Ok, but would you agree that Bill's descrion of classical koan training is accurate - the koan is used to silence the generation of thoughts and words? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 6:47 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, I've been dealing with the quantum koan all my life. Reality is the ultimate koan... Solve that one and you've got it! Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 4:40 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, O boy, here we go again Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature Edgar On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote: Suresh, et al... I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but eventually will just 'tune them out'. The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness.
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Edgar, Well, that's IT (that DOES it). You are OFF my Christmas Card list! ;-) Humbug right back, Your'n truly, -- Hose-B Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Bah! Humbug! Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Chris, Anger is bound to get a student a swift swat with an agile stick. That's why I make my sticks as I do: agile; swift; flexible; noisy; durable. Of quarter-sawn timber. Sometimes plain-sawn. I make them to last several lifetimes, but a teacher usually only exercises them for a single lifetime, as far as I know, then passes them on. So far, so good. No complaints! Not even from students... . --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I was going to say that in all my conversations with people studying koans and all my reading of zen, I have never before run into a claim of solving a koan. However, in fact, there is a book called After Zen about a Dutch detective who becomes disillusioned with Zen (Rinzai school, as practised in Canada at a remote monastery) and who found his tradition to be a bit abusive, which has a scene where the author and another former student discuss how demonstrating anger is necessary for the teacher to pass a student. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
I've never heard you describe your lineage as crazy, Joe. My practise at the moment - reading a Percy Jackson book to a very tired 8.5 year old who is fighting the bed time ritual with upset and so on. Q Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 Chris, Anger is bound to get a student a swift swat with an agile stick. That's why I make my sticks as I do: agile; swift; flexible; noisy; durable. Of quarter-sawn timber. Sometimes plain-sawn. I make them to last several lifetimes, but a teacher usually only exercises them for a single lifetime, as far as I know, then passes them on. So far, so good. No complaints! Not even from students... . --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I was going to say that in all my conversations with people studying koans and all my reading of zen, I have never before run into a claim of solving a koan. However, in fact, there is a book called After Zen about a Dutch detective who becomes disillusioned with Zen (Rinzai school, as practised in Canada at a remote monastery) and who found his tradition to be a bit abusive, which has a scene where the author and another former student discuss how demonstrating anger is necessary for the teacher to pass a student. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Suresh, Perhaps ours or yours is a party-line telephone, as in the very old days. It appears you've posted a conversation from elsewhere, by others, and we've picked-up by mistake. BTW, for those interested in THE BOOK OF MIRDAD, the author is Mikhail Naimy. He was a Lebanese Greek Orthodox Christian educated in Russia, who then took a university degree in Washington State, and a Law degree, there. He went to New York in 1916 and started a foundation with his friend Kahlil Gibran (author of THE PROPHET) to popularize Arabic literature. Naimy died in 1988. --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: I am able to see your confused mind many times That is the very great skill you possess. I admire for that. I am able to see Who are you? Did you find that out? [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
yea... gibran... one of my all time favs... merle Suresh, Perhaps ours or yours is a party-line telephone, as in the very old days. It appears you've posted a conversation from elsewhere, by others, and we've picked-up by mistake. BTW, for those interested in THE BOOK OF MIRDAD, the author is Mikhail Naimy. He was a Lebanese Greek Orthodox Christian educated in Russia, who then took a university degree in Washington State, and a Law degree, there. He went to New York in 1916 and started a foundation with his friend Kahlil Gibran (author of THE PROPHET) to popularize Arabic literature. Naimy died in 1988. --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: I am able to see your confused mind many times That is the very great skill you possess. I admire for that. I am able to see – Who are you? Did you find that out? [snip]
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness. Brgds Suresh --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Perhaps ours or yours is a party-line telephone, as in the very old days. It appears you've posted a conversation from elsewhere, by others, and we've picked-up by mistake. BTW, for those interested in THE BOOK OF MIRDAD, the author is Mikhail Naimy. He was a Lebanese Greek Orthodox Christian educated in Russia, who then took a university degree in Washington State, and a Law degree, there. He went to New York in 1916 and started a foundation with his friend Kahlil Gibran (author of THE PROPHET) to popularize Arabic literature. Naimy died in 1988. --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@ wrote: I am able to see your confused mind many times That is the very great skill you possess. I admire for that. I am able to see Who are you? Did you find that out? [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@... wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Suresh, et al... I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but eventually will just 'tune them out'. The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Well, obsessed is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to speak about all else but Zen. Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic. But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, such concentration is not obsession: but it is keeping on topic, and following the Terms of Service of the board. You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know him personally, earlier? I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the No Mind of Zen awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in fact really in Zen. --Joe Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The Book of Mirdad. I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure consciouness. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Suresh, It's a good book! I've loved it since 1973, when I practiced in New York with the Sufis and a PhD Astronomer there turned me on to the book. I look at your quoted lines now, after many years of Zen practice, and say, Aphorisms!. ...as I said about others of your posts containing just the words of others, like Ramana Maharshi, and that fellow who died twice (I always forget his name), and Osho, but with no commentary from you. Yet, good to see some of these lines again. I rather prefer the whole story in continuous fashion, though, where the lines serve a function. It's a strange and wonderful book! I still have my copy. --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: = The Book of Mirdad Quotes Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
Suresh, What is The Book of Mirdad? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: = The Book of Mirdad Quotes Often you shall think your road impassable, sombre and companionless. Have will and plod along; and round each curve you shall find a new companion. Ask not of things to shed their veils. Unveil yourselves, and things will be unveiled. Logic is immaturity weaving its nets of gossamer wherewith it aims to catch the behemoth of knowledge. Logic is a crutch for the cripple, but a burden for the swift of foot and a greater burden still for the wise. How much more infinite a sea is man? Be not so childish as to measure him from head to foot and think you have found his borders. So think as if your every thought were to be etched in fire upon the sky for all and everything to see. For so, in truth, it is. Love is the law of God. You live that you may learn to love. You love that you may learn to live. No other lesson is required of Man.You are the tree of Life. Beware of fractionating yourselves. Set not a fruit against a fruit, a leaf against a leaf, a bough against a bough; nor set the stem against the roots; nor set the tree against the mother- soil. That is precisely what you do when you love one part more than the rest, or to the exclusion of the rest. No love is possible except by the love of self. No self is real save the All-embracing Self. Therefore is God all Love, because he loves himself. So long as you are pained by Love, you have not found your real self, nor have you found the golden key of Love. Because you love an ephemeral self, your love is ephemeral. Too vast is Man and too imponderable his nature. Too varied are his talents, and too inexhaustible his strength. Beware of those who attempt to set him boundaries. Live as if your God Himself had need of you His life to live. And so, in truth, He does. No love is Love that subjugates the Lover. No love is Love that feeds on flesh and blood. No love is Love that draws a woman to a man only to breed more women and men and thus perpetuate their bondage to the flesh. The more elaborate his labyrinths, the further from the Sun his face. Men and women yearners must realize their unity even while in the flesh; not by communion of the flesh, but by the Will to Freedom from the flesh and all the impediments it places in their way to perfect Unity and Holy Understanding === Dear Joe, Please note in other Hindu forum what ever I quote from western, they will say these are already exist in Sanathana Dharma scriptures such as vedas, Upnanishads, smiritis, srutis, BG etc., I feel the following Please note the absolute is only one for this whole universe, only one knowledge. But please note knowledge need not be copied, but same knowledge can be received from that absolute by any human being lives in any part of the world. So if some westerner says / writes it need not be a copy from Hindu scriptures, but may be of his own discovery from that absolute (god). Any people speak / write philosophy or religious matters, they don't do just for name, but due to their inner realization / inner experience. Buddha realized, Jesus realized, Mohammad realized, Socrates realized, so they have expressed their inner experience, which may be compared to similar knowledge taught in Upanishads, BG or Vedas. Any person in the world who drinks water how he will describe its taste, it will be more or less same i.e no taste but it quenches your thirst, it gives your energy. Every one in the world feels thirsty and look for water and find water, similarly everyone feels void in the life, searching for meaning and find it. So not to under value any body and say they have just copied. It may be the work of 2nd hand philosophers but not of Buddha, Jesus or Mohammad or Gurdjieff or Socrates. Please comment. Good Reading Suresh -- Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
