Re: [ZION] The veil
How does one get an arranged marriage if one might wish one? I'm mad it seems it can't be done in this culture. Stacy. At 08:49 PM 11/04/2002 +, you wrote: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:21:53 -0900, John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at least not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts forever or it isn't true love. Well, you could get into a big semantic discussion on exactly what is meant by the words, but yes, it can happen. It did to me. I remember the feeling when I realized it. I talked with my bishop and he basically told me to repent. I did so, and fell back into love with her. Unfortunately, I guess she must have fallen out of love with me, or at least gave up on our commitments as bout a year later she left me for some guy she met on the internet. This kind of falling out of love is not the same as drifting apart. We had done that already or it wouldn't have happened. I think that falling out of love (the real think like I experienced) is more akin to falling into transgression until you can't feel the spirit. It is still there, but you are incapable of feeling it because of your own actions. If the person who has fallen out of love corrects the inapropriate behavior that causes it, the love will (pardon the use of this expression, but it is appropriate here) shine through again and they will effectively fall back into love. This correction requires confirmation of commitments, ceasing to dwell on what you perceive as the other's faults (true faults or not) and generally making an effor to think of them in ways appropriate to someone who is your spouse. This is one reason that I think arranged marriages work as well as they often do. Both spouses go into the marriage knowing that they have to build a relationship. This is the important part. Modern couples think that the physical attractions _IS_ the relationship and thus often put no effort into it. Once the initial physical passion wears off, the relationship is over and they end up divorced in a few years or even months. It is too bad in my case that I didn't do this earlier and know more about what was happening. I might have saved my marriage. On the other hand, I would have lost out, too, as I would not now have Jo as my wife. The price I paid (and still pay) in getting to the point I was at when we got to know each other is horrible to think about, but she _does_ help make up for it. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
If it is all in your mind, then how about the thousands of others who have not only experienced God but also written prophecies, etc.? Stacy. At 07:36 PM 11/05/2002 +, you wrote: At 15:23 11/3/2002 -0600, St Paul (not Minnesota) wrote: Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the whole thing is a joke? Well, I see it like this. If my religious experiences are all in mind, and the real world plays by different rules, I stick with my own little invented world. The world invented in my mind by thes chemicals include a caring God who loves me and has provided a way to inherit all that He has. He has provided me with a personal Saviour who has attoned for all my sins if I will just follow a few simple rules. He promises me Love and gives my life a meaning. If it is all a figment of my chemically altered imagination, I hope I never stop imagining because a world without these things is a real horror story in action and I don't want to be part of it! Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Global Warming
Have you seen any season reversals in the last few years? I don't think I have seen actual complete reversals--maybe something for a day or two. Stacy. At 01:04 PM 11/06/2002 -0600, you wrote: We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking around the world. That isn't the half of it. The seas shall go beyond their bounds. I believe there will be a great melting of the ice caps and all this in conjunction with the return of the 10 Lost Tribes. All the cities on the coasts will be threatened. All of them. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Who says we should attack anybody? Stacy. At 08:35 PM 11/06/2002 -0500, you wrote: Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by people in Pakistan. This is a real Duh!. By the way, are you advocating that we attack Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France can come next. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear weapons is a complete mystery to me. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
I am in contact with a former Muslim American. I have also been in contact with another former Muslim from Turkey and present Muslims. Like you I once believed that was the goal of all Muslims--to take over countries by the sword. I no longer believe this. I also believe that when it started the Jews and Christians threatened the little religion by war. I am not totally convinced any longer that Islam was always out to convert everyone by the sword. Often, definitely, but not always. Stacy. At 01:41 PM 11/06/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Do any of you believe that the Islamist goal is not just to get Israel out of the west bank but also to take over the entire world? I do. The goal of Islam, like the goal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to convert the whole world to their faith. And at one point in their history they believed in missionary work by the sword. I don't know how they believe today. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
If the Taliban are coming back, why are we moving on? Stacy. At 06:20 AM 11/06/2002 -0900, you wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear weapons is a complete mystery to me. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
What are we to do if our talents are being hindered?
Stacy.
At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents, gifts and
assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I
Corinthians 13.
YOUR challenge and MY challenge are to use those to the best of our
advantage. I
learned a very interesting lesson recently. I've been going through a
great deal
of physical pain due to some neurological problems (among other things I had a
blood clot on the brain, between the surface and the lining of the brain,
called a
subdural haematoma, which they say is one of the most painful things a
person can
experience, along with childbirth and kidney stones). A neuropsychologist
(who is
a diagnostician, not a counsellor) told me that I would probably have this
difficulty, due to brain damage in the parietal pre-frontal lobe of my
brain, for
quite some time, and I had to learn to separate pain itself, which I can't do
anything about (beyond analgaesic relief) and suffering which he defined
as my
reaction to pain. He told me to take more social risks and if I have a
seizure
in public, well, so what of it? Other people's reaction to it is their
problem.
Now let's turn that around. If you have a talent, you have a responsibility to
magnify it. Other people, who may not have that talent, should not envy
you for
it, but should be glad for you, and should not react negatively when you
succeed
in that area. We put a lot of barriers in our own way, and often attempt
to put
barriers in other people's lives, too. Don't let anyone put barriers in
your way.
And what I've said goes for Gary, too. I'm sure I'm not telling any of you
anything you don't already know, but this is by way of encouragement.
Stacy Smith wrote:
Not all of us are required to prove theories.
Stacy.
At 03:55 PM 11/04/2002 -0900, you wrote:
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:
No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all to read,
then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it
against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future
evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not
advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince
ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't.
So basically what you are saying is that I can forward any way out weird
theory, maybe like something that Velikovsky or von Daniken might write,
and the burden of proof is on us to use evidence to showing how wrong
headed my theory is.
I disagree that a person can responsibly postulate a theory and then
expect it to be accepted unless someone can disprove it. Even a theory
needs to be supported with some kind of evidence. Otherwise it isn't even
a theory, just a wild speculation.
John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
You know what would make a good story? Something
about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
///
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade;
character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we
dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
If a testimony is only based on how often the Lord can get me to follow Him, then I could be in trouble not because of God but because of my stubborn will. How do I know I'm not at fault? My testimony never alone rests on my puny experience. Stacy. At 05:50 PM 11/05/2002 -0600, you wrote: A testimony should never rest on whether or not the sea actually parted a'la Charlton Heston, but on how willing and capable He is in helping you succeed in following His commandments. Hmmm. How about the Jaredites and their incredible floating barges? Could they be nothing but a faith promoting story along with other stories from the mistranslated bible? Frankly, there are stories in the Book of Mormon that I find hard to believe. I accept them all on faith just as I do the stories from the mistranslated Bible. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
The thing that gets me is this: If we're all of a sudden so concerned about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as concerned in 1992? Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan. Why are we moving on? Stacy. At 09:30 PM 11/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when Pakistan presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put into power by the people of Pakistan. It was the Pakistani government plus extremist clerics, using US taxpayer dollars, who put the Taliban into power. This is Manuel Noriega all over again. Jon Spencer wrote: Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by people in Pakistan. This is a real Duh!. By the way, are you advocating that we attack Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France can come next. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear weapons is a complete mystery to me. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
I was trying to make points that not everyone appreciates the talents we may already have. Stacy. At 01:04 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote: That's why I included opportunities as part of the list. You have to make due with limitations placed on your talents, and lack of opportunity is the flip side of opportunity. Why do we have proportionately fewer serious music composers today than in the 18th and early 19th century, for example? Fewer talented people? Stacy Smith wrote: What are we to do if our talents are being hindered? Stacy. At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote: This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents, gifts and assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I Corinthians 13. YOUR challenge and MY challenge are to use those to the best of our advantage. I learned a very interesting lesson recently. I've been going through a great deal of physical pain due to some neurological problems (among other things I had a blood clot on the brain, between the surface and the lining of the brain, called a subdural haematoma, which they say is one of the most painful things a person can experience, along with childbirth and kidney stones). A neuropsychologist (who is a diagnostician, not a counsellor) told me that I would probably have this difficulty, due to brain damage in the parietal pre-frontal lobe of my brain, for quite some time, and I had to learn to separate pain itself, which I can't do anything about (beyond analgaesic relief) and suffering which he defined as my reaction to pain. He told me to take more social risks and if I have a seizure in public, well, so what of it? Other people's reaction to it is their problem. Now let's turn that around. If you have a talent, you have a responsibility to magnify it. Other people, who may not have that talent, should not envy you for it, but should be glad for you, and should not react negatively when you succeed in that area. We put a lot of barriers in our own way, and often attempt to put barriers in other people's lives, too. Don't let anyone put barriers in your way. And what I've said goes for Gary, too. I'm sure I'm not telling any of you anything you don't already know, but this is by way of encouragement. Stacy Smith wrote: Not all of us are required to prove theories. Stacy. At 03:55 PM 11/04/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all to read, then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't. So basically what you are saying is that I can forward any way out weird theory, maybe like something that Velikovsky or von Daniken might write, and the burden of proof is on us to use evidence to showing how wrong headed my theory is. I disagree that a person can responsibly postulate a theory and then expect it to be accepted unless someone can disprove it. Even a theory needs to be supported with some kind of evidence. Otherwise it isn't even a theory, just a wild speculation. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, including me. Stacy. At 01:13 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: We didn't want to upset the UN, now, did we? Actually, we did have an agreement with Iraq to implement full inspections, and he did agree to get rid of all of the Iraqi WoMM, although I can't tell you why we believed him. But certainly, we can't now. We are now more concerned because he has had quite some time to implement more weapons outside of our ability to inspect, and he has quite a bit of money to do so, given the trade he has with our European allies in the UN. Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq. Don't blame Europe. (as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude, and 1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Another thing to contemplate if the higher critics haven't gotten around to this one, let me be the first higher critic of one of them to show how preposterous some of the tales can be and yet I ought to have my head examined for believing it because I have believed these individuals to be real individuals. Can you really imagine Jacob fooling his father like that and getting away with it for even five minutes? I must admit I have a hard time of it. Anybody must realize that the smell of animal hair is quite different than the actual man's odor. Makes me wonder if this isn't symbolic too? How about Leah being given instead of Rachel on Jacob's first wedding night? The same objection. How could he have been fooled so easily? Her voice, her mannerisms, etc. I am having a lot of trouble buying both of these stories completely. Stacy. At 01:13 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote: Then stay away from it. There are other ways to learn. Stacy Smith wrote: I've read some of the higher criticism and don't really appreciate or like it. Stacy. -- / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Fwd: The Brookings Update on Terrorism, 11/6/02
I thought all would like to see this report I have been getting since around 9/11. Stacy. X-Mailer: Lyris ListManager Web Interface Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:30:48 -0500 Subject: The Brookings Update on Terrorism, 11/6/02 To: Update: Brookings Project on Terrorism [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Unsubscribe: mailto:leave-brookings_terrorismupdate-55332Q;lyris.brookings.edu List-Subscribe: mailto:subscribe-brookings_terrorismupdate;lyris.brookings.edu List-Owner: mailto:owner-brookings_terrorismupdate;lyris.brookings.edu X-URL: http://www.brookings.edu/terrorism/ Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == THE BROOKINGS UPDATE ON TERRORISM Wednesday, November 6, 2002 http://www.brookings.edu/terrorism The Brookings Update on Terrorism is a weekly advisory prepared by the Brookings Institution's Project on Americas Response to Terrorism. The project presents an ongoing series of briefings on various aspects of the crisis, analytical publications ranging from short 2,000-word papers to full-length books, and a large and evolving section of the website containing background resources, government documents, and archived video, audio, and printed transcripts of Brookings events. COMMENTARY * What Should Japan Do Next in the War on Terror? Michael O'Hanlon writes that he would be personally grateful if Japan chose this moment to offer an even more impressive contribution to global security. http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20021101.htm A Pas De Deux Justin Vaisse argues that both countries need this resolution: France, because a unilateral action would make the Security Council irrelevant, and America, because an action seen as illegitimate would further antagonize a world that increasingly tends to see it as a hegemon, not as a leader. http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/vaisse_20021103.htm ARTICLES * Does Saudi Arabia Still Matter? Differing Perspectives on the Kingdom and Its Oil Shibley Telhami and Fiona Hill argue that although events in the past year have shown the need for profound political and economic reform in Saudi Arabia, which would bolster the stability of the kingdom as well as the global economy, the proposition that the Persian Gulf states and Saudi Arabia are losing their significance for the United States misses the mark on several issues. A full copy of the Foreign Affairs article is available at: http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/hillf/20021101.htm EVENTS ** Brookings Institution Dinner: General Richard B. Meyers, Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff General Richard B. Meyers visited the Brookings Institution on Monday, November 4, 2002. In his remarks, General Meyers discussed the role of the U.S. military in the current strategic environment and the ways in which the military plans to support President Bushs National Security Strategy. A complete transcript of this event is available at: http://www.brookings.edu/comm/events/20021104.pdf Brookings Press Briefing: The NATO Summit in Prague: Challenges to Bush and the Alliance President Bush leaves shortly for Prague to meet his fellow heads of state from the NATO nations at one of the most important summit meetings in the alliance's 53-year history. The meeting comes at a time when some of America's NATO allies notably France and Germanyare actively expressing opposition to any American-led war to overthrow Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Another NATO ally, England, supports strong American moves to rid Iraq of weapons of mass destruction. Despite this split over Iraq policy, the NATO alliance has developed defense plans against terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, and cyberattack, which will be unveiled at the Prague summit. Additionally, the agenda calls for Bush and the other NATO leaders to agree on a major modernization of allied military capabilities to deal with threats in the twenty-first century, including creation of a new NATO Response Force. A large number of new members in Eastern Europe will be admitted to membership in NATO at the Prague summit, continuing the transformation of the alliance, which was originally created after World War II as a bulwark against a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. At the briefing, James Steinberg, Vice President and Director of Foreign Policy Studies; Ivo H. Daalder, Senior Fellow; and Philip H. Gordon, Senior Fellow, will examine these and other issues that President Bush will confront in Prague. The discussion will be moderated by the President of the Brookings Institution, Strobe Talbott. Please consult the following link for event registration information: http://www.brookings.edu/comm/event_reg/event_regform.htm IRAQ MEMO Getting Paris on Board Whether France ultimately does sanction a war on Iraq will depend on the
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans. Stacy. At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: Then there is ample justification in doing what we do! After all, bringing happiness to the world is an important role. Jon Stacy Smith said with great mirth: We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, including me. Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
P.S.: I meant that remark rather scornfully. Stacy. At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: Then there is ample justification in doing what we do! After all, bringing happiness to the world is an important role. Jon Stacy Smith said with great mirth: We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, including me. Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
We are moving to other targets as if we have the Taliban licked. We don't. Stacy. At 07:30 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: OK, I'll bite. What should we do? And why do you think we are moving on (could you define that please?)? Jon Stacy Smith wrote: My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan. Why are we moving on? Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
I am implying that we have only left the job half done if we leave the Taliban any room to start over again and form another government anywhere. Stacy. At 09:42 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: You must be much more clear than you have been. Again, I ask, what do you mean by moving on. I can make lots of guesses, but you should know best what you mean. As an example of your lack of clarity, do you mean that we are turning our backs to the Taliban and assuming that they no longer pose any threat? If that is what you mean, then you are clearly incorrect. Or perhaps you mean that addressing the Taliban would utilize all of our resources. Again, sadly, you would be incorrect. Or perhaps you mean that al Qaeda and the Taliban are one, and that it was the Taliban who killed our people, and not al Qaeda. Yet again, you would be wrong. And since I must assume that you are positing a carefully thought our opinion, I must assume that I do not understand what you are saying or implying. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: We are moving to other targets as if we have the Taliban licked. We don't. Stacy. At 07:30 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: OK, I'll bite. What should we do? And why do you think we are moving on (could you define that please?)? Jon Stacy Smith wrote: My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan. Why are we moving on? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden
My point exactly and right on target. Stacy. At 11:07 AM 11/07/2002 -0900, you wrote: Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive? If he is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before adding Saddam Hussein to the hit list. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists
I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy them. This one sounds interesting. Stacy. At 09:45 PM 11/07/2002 +, you wrote: This discussion by Stephen Robinson applies with equal validity to questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible... Naturalistic explanations are often useful in evaluating empirical data, but when the question asked involves non-empirical categories, such as Is the Book of Mormon what it purports to be?, it begs the question to adopt a method whose first assumption is that the Book cannot be what it claims to be. This points out a crucial logical difficulty in using this method in either attacking or defending the Church. When those with a naturalistic bias apply their scholarship to LDS literature and history, we usually assume that it is to test the prophetic claims of the Church. In fact there is never a test at all. There cannot be, for the naturalistically based assumptions of the method have determined before we even begin that divine claims cannot be accepted, and the critical scholar will already be looking for naturalistic explanations for his data. Or in the words of W. Wink: In this case the carrying over of methods from the natural sciences has led to a situation where we no longer ask what we would like to know . . . Rather, we attempt to deal only with those complexes of facts which are amenable to historical method. We ask only those questions which the method can answer (9). It seems to me that few LDS scholars really understand this. While they think they are engaged in pure scholarship, many are really methodological half-breeds, using the naturalistic method when it suits them and drawing upon their theology when it suits them, without ever stating where and how they draw the line. Opponents and proponents alike can use the fruits of empirical research in a selective way to defend the faith, but the authority of the historical-critical method is lost in so doing, and the final product lacks any real force, being merely opinion (mingled with scripture). Pure critical scholarship on the other hand is agnostic by definition, and its rules are by design stacked against theistic conclusions. It would be incredibly naive to believe that biblical criticism brings us closer to the Christ of faith. After 200 years of refining its methods, biblical scholarship has despaired of knowing the real Jesus, except for a few crumbs, and has declared the Christ pictured in scripture to be a creation of the early Church (see the excellent summary in Perrin 207-48). The Expanded Book of Mormon, Stephen Robinson essay; in Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Second Nephi: The Doctrinal Structure [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1989], 395.) --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists
Do we have any of these in immediate electronic form I could look at on a web site? Stacy. At 08:35 PM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy them. This one sounds interesting. --- Robinson has written three books that are included on my GospeLink collection. ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS? by Stephen E. Robinson Bookcraft Salt Lake City, Utah 1991 Incidentally, this one has received mixed reviews. I can't comment directly because I haven't read it, but some people I know thinks that his views on grace and works in particular aren't mainstream LDS. Sorry I don't know anymore -- it's a WAR (wild donkeyed rumour) ;-) BELIEVING CHRIST The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News Stephen E. Robinson Deseret Book Company Salt Lake City, Utah FOLLOWING CHRIST The Parable of the Divers and More Good News Stephen E. Robinson Deseret Book Company Salt Lake City, Utah 1995 More recently published: HOW WIDE THE DIVIDE? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation By Stephen E. Robinson, Craig L. Blomberg IVP Press, April 1997 This one's really stirred the pot amongst evangelicals, who think Blomberg is a traitor for co-authoring a book with an LDS author. It's first on my list, fwiw. The GospeLink collection also includes BYU STUDIES to which Robinson has been an occasional contributor. --- Mij Ebaboc If I'm not mistaken, he's written a few things for FARMS, too. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
I remember that video. Stacy. At 09:30 PM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote: Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not much doubt. Paul Osborne wrote: Do we really know for sure that Osama was behind the 9-11 attacks. Just what is the evidence? The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined that he is guilty. Case closed. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists
Thanks. Stacy. At 07:49 PM 11/07/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy them. This one sounds interesting. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Home automation
About the closest I'll ever get to automation is my talking computer, talking thermometer, talking VCR, talking alarm clock, talking braille device with speech included, etc. Stacy. At 05:05 AM 11/08/2002 +, you wrote: Anyone here interested in home automation? Anyone do any? Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Yes, but cocky people are very proud of their deeds. I don't have any doubts. Stacy. At 07:13 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not much doubt. Can we be sure he was telling the truth when he admitted to the 9-11 attack? I'm sure an evil man like Osama is also a liar. Would such a man lie to enhance his prestige? Often when murder is committed, the police have to sort through false confessions. It sounds perfectly stupid to a well balanced individual, but it happens. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I thought the church should strongly against the issue on an evolutionary process. Stacy. At 06:36 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: Marc, Who in your opinion presents the best, book length, argument in favor of evolution? And who in your opinion best presents the best argument against evolution? I ask these questions so that I might systematically study both sides of the issue to see who has the better arguments using the criteria that are important to me. I ask you because you seem to be the resident expert on this topic. Incidentally, I am not asking for a book list, not even a short one. I want your evaluation, your carefully considered opinion on the best argument for each side. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden
Well, we can only spread ourselves so thin. Stacy. At 11:34 AM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: I am constantly amazed at the fuzzy thinking that some people exhibit by dragging up this obviously silly argument. Now let me get this straight by using another example that, I believe, is entirely analogous. We have a war against crime in the US. It has been going on for as long as the US has been in existence. We were looking for the Beltway Snipers. I think that it was ridiculous to worry about trying to stop any other criminals because we couldn't stop the snipers. Is that your logic? Are you saying that because we can't be certain that we have killed USB (you say OSB) that we should ignore the fact that we have plenty of both other threats and resources with which to pursue them, and instead just sit around looking for a needle in a haystack? USB was always the figurehead and the money man. His underlings were the planners and shakers. They are the ones we need to get. Or are you saying that we should have ignored Germany in WWII, because Japan was a big enemy (actually, a much more rational argument), or ignored Italy? No, we needed to rid the world of these threats - it was both our duty and our obligation. From my perspective, this type of argument seems self-destructive. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive? If he is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before adding Saddam Hussein to the hit list. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I'm compiling a long list of books to buy so that when I walk into an LDS bookstore I'm not just going um, um, um. Stacy. At 10:43 AM 11/08/2002 -0700, you wrote: Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCat=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwins God: a Scientists Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although it's a bit outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that before the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came out, the Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison, Bertrand F. The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276 is an explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm And Pres. Stephen L. Richards refers to the inspiration which guides all scientists, including Darwin, in a letter to college students that was published in The Improvement Era (predecessor to the Ensign). Again, I have this online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_12.htm And finally, if you can hang tight, I might have
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Dreamer! Stacy. At 07:43 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. So you are absolutely sure that if we attack Iraq that no other country will get involved against us, is that right? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
Just what is predicted will happen. We will be overrun and the people that will be left will be in anarchy. Only a relatively few of us (those in the church that are left) will be the ones to save ourselves and the remnant of the people. This is the way I see the prophecies that have been made, and, unfortunately, I will live to see it. The flip side, of course, is that there will only be a little misery before the Messiah comes back to rule, but I really do not wish to go through that kind of misery. I'm beginning to wish I could die before that happens. Stacy. At 09:34 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Over a generation ago it became a rogue state exceeding its Constitutional authority. It is out of control. A wise man once said, The government which governs the least governs the best. I was not being facetious. The capital of our nation should be in Jackson County, not Washington, D. C. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
My sentiments exactly. Do you really call that winning, for the few of us that are left? I suppose in some ways it is. At least those of us who are left will deserve to be left. But for a while we will have to go through torment, and don't ask me to look forward to that. Stacy. At 10:41 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I agree, but no matter what we do we will be overrun. I don't know if I agree with the prevailing LDS sentiment that we will prevail, either. I suppose one has to ask what is meant by prevail. If you mean win but only with a tiny fraction of people left, I don't really call that winning. The Book of Mormon clearly teaches--citations available on demand--that if the voice of the people should ever choose wickedness, their destruction is imminent. It also teaches that our nation will serve the God of this land or it will be swept off. Judging from how close the last election was, the voice of the people is on the verge of choosing wickedness. I think they did it when they elected Clinton to his second term. I think they did it when they upheld that notorious Supreme Court decision in 1973. What this nations needs most in its War on Terrorism is widespread, national repentance. Have any of you seen signs of this happening? Statistically has sexual immorality gone down? Is church attendance way up? Has there been any rush to marry live in partners. Is there a growing clamor for repealing those laws that allow state sponsored gambling? Is the liquor in a deep slump from falling sales? If there is not widespread national repentance, the USA will be destroyed. Further, it will deserve it. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Virtual Personalities?
I thought all personalities were real, despite the way they appear on the virtual screen. Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
I do not want to see the U.S. destroyed. I just know that it will be. Since I'd like to spend what remains of my mortal existence in relative comfort, I hope I am dead before much of these events take place. Stacy. At 04:22 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: OK, I'll go with your last statement. But you said you would like to see the destruction of the US capital. That is what I was responding to. If you think that would not be a problem, go live in Saudi Arabia and try to go on an exchange to see some Saudi investigators! Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Over a generation ago it became a rogue state exceeding its Constitutional authority. It is out of control. A wise man once said, The government which governs the least governs the best. I was not being facetious. The capital of our nation should be in Jackson County, not Washington, D. C. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
If I can't understand how eight people survived after the ark, how will I be able to understand only 28? Suppose some of those 28 are handicapped? Stacy. At 04:27 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, we know that at one point there will be seven sisters for each brother. So there will be at least 8 people left. But wait! There will be two apostles, which means there must be at least on President, so that's 3 guys plus 21 gals - 28 people. And remember, whoever gives his life for me will be saved. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: I agree, but no matter what we do we will be overrun. I don't know if I agree with the prevailing LDS sentiment that we will prevail, either. I suppose one has to ask what is meant by prevail. If you mean win but only with a tiny fraction of people left, I don't really call that winning. Stacy. At 10:04 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I can respect your opposition to the way things are going, and part of me agrees with you - but only part. I hope, along with you, that your prognostications are not correct. But PLEASE don't go so far over the edge in stating the reasons for your opposition. It scares me! You are supposed to be one of the sane ones. It is not a political issue. It is a moral issue. America is the aggressor because Afghanistan and Iraq are on the other side of the world. How is that for being concise? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Don't forget that when we started WW II we were pretty much a righteous nation. I frankly don't see how we can really carry on our battles with these people when they aren't any more righteous than the majority of the nation. Stacy. At 04:36 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this list, I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest and sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel, and I don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us into untenable situations. He has reached agreements with the Ruskies and the French and the Chinese and the Syrians and other interested parties, all behind the scenes. Saddam is toast. By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Jon Dan R Allen wrote: Jon: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. Dan: I wouldn't be so sure of that... / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Yes, but merely in terms of numbers, I guess I was thinking that there wouldn't be too many desirables around to date, etc. How about cooking? We probably would all have to hunt as plant life would not survive nuclear attack. Those were the kinds of things I was thinking about. Or are you thinking we could have manna again? I guess that's a possibility. I guess I'm saying it wouldn't be a very desirable world. Stacy. At 04:52 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: The Lord will restore them to perfect bodies if needed. He's a really nice guy, I hear. Or perhaps they will have gifts or powers that renders their disability irrelevant. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: If I can't understand how eight people survived after the ark, how will I be able to understand only 28? Suppose some of those 28 are handicapped? Stacy. At 04:27 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, we know that at one point there will be seven sisters for each brother. So there will be at least 8 people left. But wait! There will be two apostles, which means there must be at least on President, so that's 3 guys plus 21 gals - 28 people. And remember, whoever gives his life for me will be saved. Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Books
Thomas S. Monson and Boyd K. Packer. Stacy. At 01:44 PM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: Why do you suppose the Lord repeats himself so many times in commanding us to study words of wisdom out of the best books? Is he referring only to the scriptures? Or does he want us to seek out and read the best books in other fields? If I want to read a biology book, do I want to read a book that is merely good, or among the best? Or do I want to read the best one? And so it is in any field of interest. Reading one best book is worth reading dozens or even hundreds of others. Unfortunately, many people are too intellectually lazy to do the work necessary to find out which book is the best one. But over the long term it is worth it because one learns so much more from a best book. After the scriptures what is the best book on gospel doctrine? My present choice would be THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH edited by Joseph Fielding Smith. I think that the MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball is a better and more important book, but it is more a book on practicing the religion than on doctrine. Some might object that it is impossible to determine a best book, that which book is best is in the eye of the beholder. It is a subjective evaluation. And so it is. So when I say best book, I mean in your opinion what is the best book? Ultimately the individual reader has to be the one to make that determination. To my way of thinking, it is a cop out to set aside the task of determining the best book just because someone else may have a different opinion. Determining a best book requires that a person be familiar with the literature, and know who are the most respected authors. One could consider drawing up a select list of among the best books, and then determine his own best book according to his own needs, personality and taste. This is just the way my mind works. Sometimes I am more interested in reading the stacks at a library than I am in reading any of the books. For me the bibliography at the end of a book is in some cases more interesting than the book itself. We always need to remember that a book written by a single author is a look into his mind and way of thinking. Even in the most math-like subjects, the author reveals himself by what he chose to include and what he chose to exclude. And some personalities reverberate more than others in our interpersonal relationships, so why should we not assume that the same chemistry is at work in our choice of an authors? I cannot say that Boyd K. Packer is the best speaker among the currently living apostles and prophets. But I can say that he is the best speaker by my judgement and criteria. And defending my choice could be an entertaining and educational experience. What do you think? What are some of the best books in your opinion? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Yes, I've started getting those. Stacy. At 03:26 PM 11/08/2002 -0700, you wrote: Stacy: Yes, but merely in terms of numbers, I guess I was thinking that there wouldn't be too many desirables around to date, etc. How about cooking? We probably would all have to hunt as plant life would not survive nuclear attack. Those were the kinds of things I was thinking about. Or are you thinking we could have manna again? Dan: MRE's / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
I'd rather have Hinckley than Bush. Stacy. At 03:23 PM 11/08/2002 -0700, you wrote: Jon: Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this list, I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest and sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel, and I don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us into untenable situations. Dan: As do I, although I'm not so sure that won't lead us into untenable situations - mainly because his decisions are only going to be as good as his sources. Jon: By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Dan: What do you consider as first? IIRC, we did start troop movements, but the first bombs didn't drop until after the coalition was in place. Also, regarding the Russians; they agreed not to attack us outright, but did leave Russian owned anti-air equipment in Iraq for Saddam to use. True, it didn't help him much, but their compliance with the agreement was kinda halfhearted. I'm not suggesting that they will renege on their votes, but they are pretty skilled at skirting along the edges. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Ouch! If they were radioactive do you think I'd want that? Unless the Lord intends everything that's brought by them to all of a sudden become free of radiation. That may be a bigger miracle than any prophet has ever seen happen. Stacy. At 02:11 PM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Or are you thinking we could have manna again? I guess that's a possibility. I guess I'm saying it wouldn't be a very desirable world. Maybe radioactive ravens could bring you morsels. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Try buying one of those military special gliders that one runs on one's back or whatever. Stacy. At 01:55 PM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: There is no other side of the world anymore, or hadn't you noticed. Of course, it is probably easier to get to North Carolina from Baghdad than from where you live, but I digress. :-) This is a cliche. Of course there is an other side of the world even today. Does every nation have long distance bombers or ICBMs? Can all nations afford virtually unlimited transportation technology? Do they all have great navys? Speaking as one who has had to severely limit his trips to the Lower Forty-eight because of exorbitant airfares, I can assure you that it is still a big world. It is just somewhat smaller than it used to be. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Governing the Least
I've wanted out of here for some time. Does that mean I'm wrong? Stacy. At 02:15 AM 11/09/2002 +, you wrote: Paul Osborne wrote: --- Trust me, you're not alone. I don't care about Jackon County or the second coming or any of the dreaded prophecies of doom. I just want to get my mission done and get out of here. The sooner the better as I wish the Lord would hurry it up and beam me up. I'm so sick of this world. --- Paul, remember to finish your course. If you are striving to be a righteous man, it may well be that you have some critical mission yet left unfulfilled. Although life seems hopeless and pointless much of the time, there may yet be some unknown purpose ahead for us to serve. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith; Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day; and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (1 Tim 4:6-8) --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
So am I. Stacy. At 07:39 PM 11/08/2002 -0600, you wrote: Since I'd like to spend what remains of my mortal existence in relative comfort, I hope I am dead before much of these events take place. Trust me, you're not alone. I don't care about Jackon County or the second coming or any of the dreaded prophecies of doom. I just want to get my mission done and get out of here. The sooner the better as I wish the Lord would hurry it up and beam me up. I'm so sick of this world. And, to make matters worse-- I'm all out of tranquilizers! :-( Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
Then we will have to practically police the world. I don't think that is appropriate. Why weren't we sending money overseas to help the people in those countries make better lives instead of trying to make huge profits in this country as businessmen? Stacy. At 06:37 PM 11/08/2002 -0600, you wrote: I was listening to talk radio today, and they played some stuff from last night's FrontLine (PBS). They had a newsman slip into Iraq and he was interviewing people. They were describing the slaughters going on there. One woman said that her village was forced to an execution. They had to watch 15 women being beheaded by sword. Only a couple were prostitutes, most were doctors and school teachers. I think that in the long run, the majority of Iraqis (especially the women) will be as happy to have us come as did the Afghani women. Today we finished rebuilding a school for girls in one of the major Afghan cities. It has been closed since the Taliban took over. Afghanistan has one of the largest death rates for child bearing (7 in 100), because women aren't allowed to see doctors. We are training dozens of midwives to help inthe deliveries. I'd say that we are saving many of these people, just as we saved Europe from itself in WWII. Thanks to us, Europe is primarily democratic and the people live decent lives. This is now beginning to occur in Russia and Eastern Europe. And perhaps we can export it to more of the world as we fight terrorism (which I am convinced Saddam is involved with). You'll note that Pres Bush has been working with the UN, and in fact the UN Security Council voted unanimously today (including Syria). That definitely shows that Pres Bush is speaking tough in order to get the rest of the world to move a little, yet he's still compromising with them. Iraq now has a month to disarm, or the UN can take action. I think that is very fair. In WWII, we had to fight on several fronts. We didn't just attack Japan and leave Germany and Italy alone until we finished with Japan. We fought them all at once. We still have things to do in Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean we aren't ready to select additional targets in the war of terrorism. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego
I'm living in Pasadena, so I'm close also. Stacy. At 02:49 PM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Going through this world as blind is challenge enough. Going through the same after nuclear attack I cannot fathom. I cannot but think that the organizational prowess of the Church would become even more obvious after any nuclear attack. Who knows, perhaps we would have to help form a new government after Washington, D.C. becomes a glass-lined, radioactive crater. Regardless, if Father in Heaven loves you as much as I suppose he does, his Son's church might be able to provide you with a more benign environment than you think. Just as clothing provides us with a micro climate in places far from the tropics, I'm sure that God could help us achieve a micro environment in a radioactive and violent world. My friend Mike George--are you there, Mike?--is determined to live in the Los Angeles area. I keep trying to get him to move out of so obvious a nuclear target. He has stopped my mouth by pointing out that if God can protect Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace, then he can protect Mike George in the middle of a nuclear fireball. What can I say to that? grin Of course, I realize that for some of you this is just a children's bedtime story designed to illustrate a true principle that God can protect us no matter what the peril. It did not literally happen, right? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
I want to assure you that not all Muslims want this but I believe the Islamists do. Stacy. At 11:12 PM 11/08/2002 -0600, you wrote: JWR asked: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. You better believe it. The Islamic fundies are the ones that are going to bring to pass Armageddon as the rest of the world charges into the great final battle. Those Muslims are going to attack the Jews and the Jews will have no choice but to launch all of their nuclear weapons. The whole thing can be laid squarely on the shoulders of the Muslims. They are going to be the cause of WWIII. IMO, of course. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Where do the Mexicans align themselves? Stacy. At 02:01 AM 11/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: Marc, that's great! You can now go to those books and read how we put people into the area immediately, and then built up our forces unilaterally over a several month period before ever establishing an international coalition. Now just as then, we had some instant allies such as the British Commonwealth. However, the rant and rave that I hear from the left is that that is not an international coalition. Well, now we seem to be gaining one. Just like then. After you refresh your recollections, you can thank me for helping restore your memory! :-) Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Really? Then how did all those British, Canadian, Australian, Egyptian, Saudi, Omani, UAE-ese, Turkish, French, lessee, Qatari, Yemeni troops, planes, and ships get there along with the US forces? Do you know who the Commander in Chief of Desert Storm was? I have the whole order of battle on my bookshelf. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/10/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Then why weren't the Japanese able to overcome the effects? The key here, I believe, is how would we know we had been hit to take the showers? Plus, what if they're laced with bioweapons? Stacy. At 01:52 AM 11/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: Actually, dirty bombs are not a big deal from a radioactivity point of view. If one is exposed to a dirty nuke, one only has to get to a complete shower (at home will do just fine) within a couple of hours, and there will be no long term effects. The cleanup will be a pain to be sure, but not a really big deal either. Of course, with all the hysteria over nuclear power that the envirowackos have stirred up, the emotional damage would be much greater. But that's a topic for another thread, one that I have begun doing detailed and extensive research on. You will be the first to see the fruits of that research - sort of a test market! Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I think the most imminent threat isn't from a conventional nuke but from so-called dirty bombs, which are conventional explosives packed with a messy radioactive substance such as caesium (which is a powder in natural form). / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/10/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Let's get rid of Bush and elect Hinckley. I should have written his name in. Stacy. At 01:31 AM 11/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: But we have both! Jon I'd rather have Hinckley than Bush. Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
company, Nordion, in Kanata ON (a suburb of Ottawa). They're part of MDS, a large Canadian medical services company based in Toronto. If you hang around Ottawa, you can see Nordion's white trucks rushing isotopes to the airport so they can be flown on private jets directly to big tertiary care hospitals around the world, but especially the US (many of these isotopes, made of very exotic materials like molybdenum (molly for short) have very short halflifes so have to be used within a few days). I used to watch technicians working behind metre-thick glass (filled with mineral oil), working with remote arms to load Co60 into their canisters. There's a cooling tank where spent Co60 is stored, and some of it is energetic enough that you can see the beautiful Cerenkov effect, a bluish glow that comes from the water around the canisters. Every year Nordion has a company picnic and open house, and the public is given tours of the facilities. We and I think Sweden are the only two countries in the world with the *capability* of being a nuclear power but who have deliberately decided not to be (well, aside from Japan and Germany, too, I suppose, but they're special cases). JFK tried to get our prime minister at the time, John Diefenbaker, to accept nuclear-armed BOMARC missiles on Canadian soil, but Diefenbaker refused. Anyone in the Edmonton area can see a BOMARC, incidentally -- there's one on display outside of a hangar on 123rd St, by the Municipal Airport, just as you're coming up to Princess Elizabeth Avenue from the Yellowhead. It was developed by a Canadian aeronautics company to replace the AVRO Arrow, which was cancelled by Diefenbaker, almost certainly under pressure from the U.S. to use their fighters rather than develop our own (which we've done ever since; our workhorse fighters are modified F-18's called CF-18's). Stacy Smith wrote: Then why weren't the Japanese able to overcome the effects? The key here, I believe, is how would we know we had been hit to take the showers? Plus, what if they're laced with bioweapons? Stacy. At 01:52 AM 11/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: Actually, dirty bombs are not a big deal from a radioactivity point of view. If one is exposed to a dirty nuke, one only has to get to a complete shower (at home will do just fine) within a couple of hours, and there will be no long term effects. The cleanup will be a pain to be sure, but not a really big deal either. Of course, with all the hysteria over nuclear power that the envirowackos have stirred up, the emotional damage would be much greater. But that's a topic for another thread, one that I have begun doing detailed and extensive research on. You will be the first to see the fruits of that research - sort of a test market! Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I think the most imminent threat isn't from a conventional nuke but from so-called dirty bombs, which are conventional explosives packed with a messy radioactive substance such as caesium (which is a powder in natural form). /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/10/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
I suppose you have a dim view of all Muslims, then? Or is it just the Islamist factions? Stacy. At 12:09 PM 11/09/2002 -0600, you wrote: If Jewish and Christian fundies don't beat them to it by attacking the Temple Mount. Well, anything is possible. But--you have to consider that the Jews had their chance and still do--but they don't overstep their bounds by attacking that disgusting dome. The Muslims are a force that can't be trusted. Remember what they did in Iran when Carter was President? The religion of Islam is a dangerous threat to the whole world and it is antichrist for sure. God will destroy all the millions of Muslims who come up against Judah in the last days at Armageddon. Islam will fall by a mighty hand and will not survive into the millennium. That is my prediction. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
You make some interesting points there. But I have another question which I think is very relevant. It seems wrong to me even in the face of oil interests to consider Saudi Arabia on our side. Why can't we stop treating them as allies, especially in light of their Islamist tendencies? Stacy. At 11:06 AM 11/09/2002 -0700, you wrote: Stacy, here's another link I found. While Mexico has been traditionally neutral and non-interventionist (which, in the Wall Street Journal's eyes makes it leftist), they have, as previously stated, agreed, along with the rest of the Security Council on this last week's resolution on Iraq. This link is useful because it makes some of the points we Canadians try to make, too; namely, that allies are supposed to be treated as equals, not condescended to (as Pat Buchanan, who appeals to the trailer park trash counterpart to Howard Stern's demographic, did): http://www.hispanicvista.com/html2/110302thompson.htm Stacy Smith wrote: Where do the Mexicans align themselves? Stacy. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
By the way, I had quite a discussion in Gospel Doctrine last week on the Zionist movement. I saw the original Zionist movement in 1948 as quite improper and that the Jews had no business coming back to the Holy Land until the Messiah, Jesus, should come the second time. Stacy. At 11:06 AM 11/09/2002 -0700, you wrote: Stacy, here's another link I found. While Mexico has been traditionally neutral and non-interventionist (which, in the Wall Street Journal's eyes makes it leftist), they have, as previously stated, agreed, along with the rest of the Security Council on this last week's resolution on Iraq. This link is useful because it makes some of the points we Canadians try to make, too; namely, that allies are supposed to be treated as equals, not condescended to (as Pat Buchanan, who appeals to the trailer park trash counterpart to Howard Stern's demographic, did): http://www.hispanicvista.com/html2/110302thompson.htm Stacy Smith wrote: Where do the Mexicans align themselves? Stacy. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
To my understanding, Saudia Arabia is the next most Islamist state around next to Iraq now. They seem to be the most strict observers. Stacy. At 10:23 AM 11/09/2002 -0700, you wrote: I don't think so. The foreigners had to get their assets into place, too. It wasn't unilateral. In fact, it's ironic that you're showing this particular kind of ignorance on the topic -- it was precisely because the Saudis allowed foreign, non-Moslem soldiers on its soil that set bin Laden off. You started off politically, first with the Saudis, to get permission to move some of the things that couldn't be airlifted in (like most of the tanks your army uses). Light infantry were only brought in when the infrastructure was in place. And Canadian, Australian and British ships can't sail any faster than their U.S. counterparts -- they headed for the Gulf months ahead of time, just like the U.S. forces did. Jon Spencer wrote: Marc, that's great! You can now go to those books and read how we put people into the area immediately, and then built up our forces unilaterally over a several month period before ever establishing an international coalition. Now just as then, we had some instant allies such as the British Commonwealth. However, the rant and rave that I hear from the left is that that is not an international coalition. Well, now we seem to be gaining one. Just like then. After you refresh your recollections, you can thank me for helping restore your memory! :-) Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Really? Then how did all those British, Canadian, Australian, Egyptian, Saudi, Omani, UAE-ese, Turkish, French, lessee, Qatari, Yemeni troops, planes, and ships get there along with the US forces? Do you know who the Commander in Chief of Desert Storm was? I have the whole order of battle on my bookshelf. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Yes, and for a while I was afraid to eat Hershey bars because I understood the company was in the vacinity of Three Mile Island. Stacy. At 07:08 PM 11/09/2002 +, you wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: --- Of course, with all the hysteria over nuclear power that the envirowackos have stirred up, the emotional damage would be much greater. --- Creating terror is the real objective of terrorism, isn't it? What does it matter that dirty bombs are ineffective at inflicting casualties, if it puts your enemy in a panic crises? Everyone knows that any level of radiation will kill us all instantly, or cause us to die of cancer within a few months. Even the people who live in the neighborhood of the Three Mile Island reactor disaster are still trying to sue because they all have cancer. The recently completed study indicating that there is no greater risk of cancer in that area means nothing. Spreading fear and panic was also the point of the anthrax attacks last year. Of course it is seldom recognized that anthrax is a common organism in nature. Many of us have fairly frequent contact with anthrax vectors. There are even occasional infections. But nobody seems to feel too scared about that. Probably because, as with dirty bomb contamination, the most effective prophylactic measure is attention to regular bathing habits. I remember when the Denver airport was shut down last year because someone discovered a white powder leaking from a package. It turned out to be vanilla pudding mix. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
Possibly, but I doubt it. You see, I'm not happy with the way in which the modern Israel was created. It's my contention that the gathering of spiritual Israel began before the political figures got involved and the gathering of the Jews to their homeland wasn't supposed to be happening until Jesus came back. Stacy. At 07:42 PM 11/09/2002 -0700, you wrote: Suppose I were to tell you one. What would be your reaction? Would you change your mind? Paul Osborne wrote: I suppose you have a dim view of all Muslims, then? Or is it just the Islamist factions? Millions upon millions of Muslims will gear up to go into Armageddon and their whole religion will support it. Babylon must fall. Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
And I think you may be a bloodthirsty man. I will not say definitely, however, because I am not supposed to judge mankind, Jesus is. You may very well have good motives, but I think you should watch them closely. Stacy. At 05:54 PM 11/09/2002 -0600, you wrote: Jon wisely said: Those who want to fault the US for what we did can just stuff it. Those who in eternal ingratitude want to blame the nasty old US for being so bad can stuff it as well. And let all the congregation say AMEN! Dropping the bombs on Japan was wise and the making of more nuclear weapons was even wiser. Thank goodness we have a government that wants to protect us against our enemies and thank goodness President Truman was not a coward. Thank goodness there is a separation between church and state!! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
Muhammad Karim, ex-Muslim and Christian. He only disapproves of the way that modern Israel as a nation came into existence. Stacy. At 05:42 PM 11/09/2002 -0600, you wrote: I suppose you have a dim view of all Muslims, then? Or is it just the Islamist factions? Millions upon millions of Muslims will gear up to go into Armageddon and their whole religion will support it. Babylon must fall. Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
Why doesn't he count? He claims as a Muslim he didn't hate Jews either, only the way modern Israel came into being. I'll name another one who claims to have loved all people. He even married a Christian woman while he was Muslim, namely my sister. He is from Turkey. His name is Tahir Sozutek. Need other examples? Stacy. At 09:14 PM 11/09/2002 -0600, you wrote: Muhammad Karim, ex-Muslim and Christian. He only disapproves of the way that modern Israel as a nation came into existence. He doesn't count. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the least
I'll agree with those sentiments. Stacy. At 08:50 PM 11/09/2002 -0600, you wrote: Gary, I'm glad you cope so well on this earth. I want it to be as easy as possible and I want the least amount of trials too but that doesn't seem to be my lot. If life as a god is not as happy as I expect it should be than maybe I don't want to be a god. I'm just here because Heavenly Father expected it and I agreed to come here to grow. But this earth is a rotten place for me and if God judges me or takes away my opportunity for exaltation because that is how I feel and react or don't do all I could have done like refuse a calling or something else-- SO BE IT!!! Paul O ~the servant? On Sat, 9 Nov 2002 18:13:52 -0600 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And you think the next life will be any easier I just think about what God must have been feeling as he was dealing death to his children during the Great Flood. Enoch tells us that God wept like we cannot imagine. Truly, to be God means we aren't just blissfully happy all the time, but we have all the range of God-like emotions, including sadness and sorrow. I thank God for this world. All of its struggles teach me so very much. I have learned patience and compassion through my trials, two things that I don't readily fall to in life. At the same time, some of the most wonderful experiences come to me because of this life. How could I despise a gift that God has given me? I mean, without this gift called mortality, I could never learn to be like God. There are many beautiful things around me. I am glad to be here to see the geese fly in from the Zoo, to feed in the fields behind my house. I am glad to see my wife get an A on her college class. I am glad to see a new member go to the temple. I am glad to see one of my children or grandchildren succeed at something. And I'm glad for the trials. They teach me so very much on how to be godlike. I've been out of work for a few months now, and though it drives me crazy at times, it has also given me much time with my wife-what a nice reward. I'll go when I'm called to go. If I have to live through the great disasters at the end, I'll do it with the knowledge that it will improve me and strengthen me. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul Osborne wrote: --- Trust me, you're not alone. I don't care about Jackon County or the second coming or any of the dreaded prophecies of doom. I just want to get my mission done and get out of here. The sooner the better as I wish the Lord would hurry it up and beam me up. I'm so sick of this world. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
There are other sections of the Qur'an, it is true, that tell the soldiers to slaughter unbelievers, but when one talks to most Muslims they claim that this was during the first wars in self-defense from Christian and Jewish opposition and that this has not always held true. At times Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in harmony with one another. It is mostly the Palistinians who want all Jews out of Israel, not destroyed, just out of the Holy land. If one talks to American Muslims, Turkish Muslims, etc., one gets an entirely different picture. The first name I mentioned was someone who practiced Islam devoutly from age 15 to, well, about 12 years. He fulfilled a semi-pilgrimage to Mecca during that time and studied in Saudi Arabia. Stacy. At 09:10 PM 11/09/2002 -0700, you wrote: No, they're beni Israel (the title of one of the Suras of the Qur'an), meaning by way of connotation that they, along with Christians, are children of the Book and are to be treated with respect. It's not just Christians who are hypocrites and misread their own scriptures. True infidels are actually those who do not believe in a form of monotheism, according to pure Islam. Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. The vast majority of Sunni and Ismaili Muslims, which are the branches I'm most familiar with, and to which persuasions most of the Moslems I have met belong to, are more tolerant by far than our media portrays. There's no news to ordinariness. I've only ever known well one Iranian, and he was from a Turkmen minority group who are Sunni, so I'm not sure if I even know any Shiites. Many Moslems are like Christians, too -- they are really Muslim in name only, and tend to be rather secular (most Egyptians and Palestinians I have met, let alone Turks, are like that). But Palestinians are in a difficult position, as we all know, and there is a lot of polarization going on there. That's what happened in Chechnya. There has never been any love lost between the Chechens and the Russians, dating back to when Peter the Great conquered the Caucasus's northern slopes for the Empire, but Chechens have mostly been secular, and are using Islam as a means of militarizing their nationalism. Paul Osborne wrote: No. I would say that person wasn't a true Muslim. Are not the Jews infidels? Paul O On Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:42:45 -0700 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Suppose I were to tell you one. What would be your reaction? Would you change your mind? Paul Osborne wrote: I suppose you have a dim view of all Muslims, then? Or is it just the Islamist factions? Millions upon millions of Muslims will gear up to go into Armageddon and their whole religion will support it. Babylon must fall. Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Sounds like an interesting book. I'll get it. I thought a social Mormon was one who never went to church, used coffee and tea but was involved in cultural events. Stacy. At 07:23 AM 11/10/2002 +, you wrote: If Satan can't intimidate or bully us with physical trials, he'll often try to fool us with substitute issues and programs. He would like us to invest our time, talents, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. That is irrelevant. The deception comes in giving these concerns a higher priority in our lives than our gospel covenants and thus to prove unfaithful to our first love, who is Christ. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow alternate voices. These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the defense of other causes instead of Zion, and they don't perceive that their shifting loyalty is really unfaithfulness. Those so deceived do not generally reject Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways or according to new standards and values, and their original commitments take a backseat to their new agenda. In essence, they change their spiritual compass headings. But the truth is that they couldn't be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn't endure. (Stephen E. Robinson, Following Christ.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history
I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Where can I find more? Stacy. At 06:15 AM 11/11/2002 +, you wrote: http://www.abbottloop.org/alconweb/pol_news/mythafa.htm During the French and Indian War, the 23-year-old Washington was fighting with the British against the French who were allied with the Indians. On July 9, 1755, in the Battle of the Monongahela, the British regiments were ambushed by the French and Indians. Of the 86 British and Virginia officers, only Washington was not shot off his horse. After retreating to Maryland, Washington wrote his mother. After the battle was over I took off my jacket and I had four bullet holes through my jacket, but not a single bullet had touched me. I had several horses shot out from under me, but I was not hurt in any way. God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle. In 1770, Washington traveled back to the region and an old Indian chief, having heard Washington was back, traveled to meet him. The chief told Washington, You don't know me, but 15 years ago you and I were in these same woods. I commanded the Indians you were fighting that day. We saw you riding through the woods and knew you were a leader. If we could kill you we knew your troops would scatter, so I instructed my braves to fire at you. I personally fired at you 17 times. When I saw that none of our bullets had any effect on you, I told my braves to stop shooting. I have traveled all this way to meet the man God would not let die in battle. This spiritual account, and many others like it, used to be in our history textbooks. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history
I realize that now after discussing this with Muhammad. Stacy. At 03:46 PM 11/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: These stories may or may not be true. How do you know? Many people think Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a lad, too, but this story has been traced to a moral tale by a Protestant preacher, iirc, in the 19th century. Stacy Smith wrote: I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Where can I find more? Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against Islam
I agree that the Islamists are gaining power. Stacy. At 09:25 PM 11/11/2002 -0600, you wrote: Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians are now being soft on Islamic fundamentalists, and are even condemning US efforts against terrorism.f Islamic groups are encouraging more to move into the nation, so they can become an even greater power there. Other nations in Europe are feeling the same effects of migration and conversion to Islam. Just look at who some of the more popular terrorists have been: converted Americans and Europeans. They are exporting their religion, which is not the terrible thing. The terrible thing is that they are also exporting their jihad. Muslim schools in England and Europe are now found to be teaching anti-Western sentiments. Islamic calendars with Sept 11 marked with burning airplanes were found in some of these schools after the 9/11 tragedy. Their Jihad is on the same level as the Christian Crusades. Those who went on the Crusades were promised everlasting life. They were told to use whatever means to obtain the holy city. And they did. They were ruthless, killing men, women and children. They even toppled Constantinople, an Orthodox Christian city! So it is with the Jihad today. It is a holy war. In holy war, or a Crusade, people will do whatever is necessary to obtain victory and heaven. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
I think what everyone means by socialists are the people informally who believe that the government should pay for health care for everyone regardless of income or social status, not necessarily those that belong to the Communist party or groups thereof. I think this needs to be clarified somewhat. Stacy. At 10:31 AM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote: Hello, my name is Irwin Delay. I recently joined the list. Although I am not a Latter-day Saint, I have been reading LDS literature for the past three years. Also, I am engaged to a Latter-day Saint. I must respond to the statements of Gerald Smith. Let me first say I am an unapologetic, flaming liberal. I do not think the Democratic party is controlled by the socialist. Also, the problem I have with the idea of states' rights is the fact of what happened to African Americans forty years ago. Were blacks in the south expected to migrate en masse to the north to escape segregation? A strong federal government is a must in order to protect the rights of the minority. Irwin // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
In my opinion the more parties the better. Stacy. At 07:00 AM 11/12/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: I think the problem in a one party system is shown historically. The South became polarized to the Democratic party in the 1850s, with other parties being totally squeezed out (Republicans, Whigs, Know-Nothings, etc). This one party system then allowed a gradual radicalization of the one system. Without balance, they ended up driving a wedge between themselves and the Union (I recognize the Union wasn't perfect, either. However one didn't see secession efforts by disgruntled states in the north). I've been thinking of becoming a Democrat. I can't see a nickle's worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans except in their rhetoric. They both vote the same wrong way on the issues that matter to me. And since I never vote for the candidate of either party, why not be a Democrat? Who knows, it might help me get along with Marc. grin John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
Well, I had a rather different idea about what kind of parties to have. Lol. Stacy. At 02:18 PM 11/12/2002 -0500, you wrote: At 11:00 11/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: In my opinion the more parties the better. YES!!! the more the merrier. Now who's bringing the cookies? the green jello Till the party animal // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Then I'm in trouble because I use lots of convenience foods because I have trouble cooking. I guess I'll have to tell the bishop that I'm working on substituting some soy products for meat dishes but I'll need to know where soy TV dinners, etc. exist. Stacy. At 11:46 AM 11/12/2002 -0700, you wrote: There's been a lot of discussion about this. My own opinion is that, given speech patterns of the day, the sentence is parsed better with a comma after used. In other words, it *does* restrict meat to only times of winter or hunger. The phrase not be used only is anachronistically late 20th century. Otherwise it appears to be self-contradictory, unless you're living mostly in times of winter and hunger. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal, but it certainly isn't a justification for vegetarianism, as good an idea as vegetarianism may be (but for others, not me!) John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? That is not what it says. It says, Eat meat sparingly and they should not be used only in times of winter or hunger. To me that clearly means that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
I would refrain from making such comments on the list in case certain persons come on this list that are known between us. I wasn't trying to correct you but only giving my views on the subject for the list. Do I believe everyone should have free health care? Too expensive in my opinion. The disabled should have it insofar as they are able to live in a free society and having liberty. Everyone? No. Stacy. At 12:36 PM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote: In a previous post, Stacy Smith wrote, I think what everyone means by socialists are the people informally who believe that the government should pay for health care for everyone regardless of income or social status, not necessarily those that belong to the Communist party or groups thereof. I think this needs to be clarified somewhat. Stacy. Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and I need to be corrected. (grin) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
It's a tragedy these things happen. Everyone who goes into an MRI room should be trained and no unauthorized person should be allowed in. Stacy. At 10:56 PM 11/12/2002 -0700, you wrote: It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical report that came up when I did a Fetch search on MRI killing Tom Lawsuit filed in MRI death By MELISSA KLEIN THE JOURNAL NEWS (Original publication: July 4, 2002) WHITE PLAINS The family of a 6-year-old boy killed in an MRI accident at Westchester Medical Center in Valhalla has filed a $20 million lawsuit against the hospital, its medical staff and others involved in the incident, which focused international attention on the potential dangers of MRI procedures. The lawsuit, filed this week in state Supreme Court in White Plains, comes almost a year after Michael Colombini of Croton-on-Hudson was hit in the head by a metal oxygen tank that was yanked by magnetic force into the MRI chamber. He died two days later on July 29. Michael's mother, Barbra Colombini, declined to comment yesterday. We're looking to get justice for this family that has suffered a terrible and devastating loss, said Matthew Gaier, a partner with the Manhattan law firm Kramer, Dillof, Livingston Moore, which is representing the Colombinis. The lawsuit names the Westchester County Health Care Corp., the parent entity for the medical center, as well as its affiliated medical school, New York Medical College in Valhalla, and General Electric Corp, which manufactured the MRI machine. The suit also names anesthesiologist Dr. Jian Hou, who was reported to have carried the oxygen tank into the MRI room, as well as a nurse, Mary Nadler, who is said to have given Hou the tank, and two MRI technologists, Patricia Lauria and Paul Daniels, who were operating the machine. Those individuals named in the lawsuit have not previously been publicly identified. Also named were University Imaging and Medical Associates, a doctors' group that had supervised the day-to-day operation of the MRI suite, and Valhalla Anesthesia Associates, the private practice that provides anesthesia services at the hospital. Carin Grossman, a spokeswoman for the medical center, said the hospital would not comment on the lawsuit. We continue to accept full responsibility for our role in this tragedy, and we cannot discuss the issue any further because it's in litigation, Grossman said. A spokeswoman for New York Medical College also declined to comment, saying the college had not yet received the legal papers. A spokesman for General Electric did not return a call seeking comment. The lawsuit alleges that Michael Colombini was injured because of a hazardous, unsafe, defective and dangerous condition. Michael, who had just completed kindergarten, had a successful operation at the medical center to remove a benign brain tumor and was undergoing the MRI on July 27, as a follow-up to that treatment. He was sedated for the exam and in the MRI machine when the accident happened. The lawsuit alleges that the hospital failed to properly anesthetize Michael, to monitor his oxygen flow, and to properly prepare for the MRI procedure and have all necessary and proper oxygen supplies available. General Electric was cited in the lawsuit for failing to place the proper warnings around the machine noting its potential danger and failing to establish and issue appropriate training and safety procedures. According to a state Health Department review of the incident, the anesthesiologist notified an MRI technologist that there was a problem with the piped-in oxygen supply in the MRI room. Two technologists left the machine's control room to remedy the problem, leaving the MRI unsupervised. The anesthesiologist then urgently called out to obtain oxygen, according to the Health Department. What happened next had initially been a matter of dispute. The hospital's internal review of the incident noted that a nurse said she gave the doctor the oxygen tank in a hallway outside the MRI room. The doctor said the nurse brought it into the room. The Health Department, in its report, found that the anesthesiologist brought the tank into the MRI room. Gaier, the family's lawyer, said both the anesthesiologist and the nurse were named in the lawsuit because one way or another, they were both involved. The Health Department fined the medical center $22,000 for 11 violations relating to the accident, including failing to properly report and investigate a similar MRI incident that had taken place four years earlier. No one was injured in that incident, of which the hospital said it was unaware until after Michael's death. Hou's conduct was reviewed by the state's Office of Professional Medical Conduct, which looks into potential cases of misconduct by doctors. The state Health Department, under state law, does not release information if no action is taken against a doctor. It only makes public
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Well, I wasn't talking about the patient, of course not, just the workers. Stacy. At 07:31 AM 11/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: At 23:38 11/12/2002 -0800, St Stacy wrote: It's a tragedy these things happen. Everyone who goes into an MRI room should be trained and no unauthorized person should be allowed in. Oh, man, now I have to be TRAINED to be sick!! 8)) Till the tired // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
That's the very conclusion I've come to. Stacy. At 11:37 PM 11/13/2002 -0700, you wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: I agree with you regarding the basis for materialism. Marxist scientists have for decades attempted to establish a material basis for spiritual experiences, that is nothing new. However, that is not what Pratt was driving at. Pratt clearly states that there is a relationship between the brain and spiritual experiences but that we need to be careful not to draw conclusions without taking both the spiritual and material elements into consideration. Imo, the brain acts as sort of an interface, if you will, between body and spirit. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Coffee beans
I agree that there are more sensible alternatives. Doctors need to be sensitive to religious backgrounds as well as physical conditions. Stacy. At 11:32 PM 11/13/2002 -0700, you wrote: I know someone for whom this is also the case, although for a different condition. But I think today doctors are smart enough to come up with suitable alternatives. A bottle of 100 No-doze here costs only a couple of dollars, and those are only arctic pesos, so probably only like, three cents, eh? ...Just went hunting to see if I had any, and I do -- way back in a storage area I rarely use. They're called Wake Ups brand, and each pill has 100 mg, which is, iirc, more than a cup of coffee has. ...puff, puff Back again. Just did a search on Medscape. Fresh brewed coffee (225 mL mug -- I think that's 8 US fl oz) has 105 mg of caffeine; instant coffee has 95 mg. Excedrin has 135 mg. ACC's (Acetaminophen/Caffeine/Codeine, which is available without a prescription here) has only 15 mg, Tea's all over the map, but is usually less -- sometimes considerably less -- than coffee. Mountain Dew (the US version; Canada's has always been caffeine-free) has 55 mg in a 325 mL bottle -- a regular size bottle. Coke, Diet Coke, Pepsi, US version of Sunkist Orange Soda -- about the same as Mountain Dew. Hershey's Special Dark, 1.5 oz (35 g) has 31 mg A regular Hershey bar of the same size only has 10 mg. Cocoa (225 mL mug) only has 5 mg. BTW, why didn't the doc prescribe digitalis or digoxin? Digitalis has been around since antiquity (it comes from the foxglove plant), and digoxin has been in use since at least WWII, iirc. It's usually the drug of choice for heart stimulus. Although, it is, of course, a prescription drug, but there are many generics available. But as you say, medicinally speaking, caffeine is a CNS stimulant and can be used for a variety of purposes. The only problem is it doesn't just stimulate the heart, it raises blood pressure, which can damage your kidneys, among other things. Gary Smith wrote: The coffee bean can be used to produce caffeine, which is an important drug used for some illnesses. Just as with other drugs, it can be abused and misused. My grandfather was prescribed caffeine for a heart condition he had. The doctor told him he could either pay a dollar per caffeine pill or drink a cup of coffee every day. So at breakfast, he would say it was time to take his medicine, then drink a cup of coffee. Since it was prescribed, it wasn't breaking the WoW. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
What else does coffee have in it besides caffeine? Are there other active ingredients? Stacy. At 03:08 PM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote: Marc wrote: Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a state of alert. What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
Didn't the Nephites adopt something similar in terms of freedom of religion, etc.? I don't mean a President and Congress, however. Stacy. At 06:28 PM 11/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: Just shows to go that if the world were full of smart and humble people, they would have long ago adopted our divinely inspired Constitution. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Coffee, Tea or Eternity
Then why can't the church take an active stance on caffeine if that is the real problem? Stacy. At 05:43 PM 11/16/2002 -0500, you wrote: I have heard that tannic acid is used in the making of coffee and tea and that can be more harmful than caffeine. It's kind of reminiscent of the WhiteLies anti-smoking campaign telling us what is REALLY in a cigarette--it ain't just tobacco. Yet I can remember not so many years ago when it was cool to smoke Kools etc. My how things change in a couple of decades. On the subject of caffeine, as for me and (sometimes) mine--I have heard President Hinckley, twice, say on national television that we do not drink soda with caffeine, and that is good enough for me (is this a liberal stance ;-p). My two inactive sons do their own thing with that, but when I drive to the temple in Chicago, and afterward go to Jewel to stock up on caffeine free Dr. Pepper, they are ecstatic. I have not yet been able to get local bottlers to get the caffeine free DP here. your sis in Mishawaka val On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:11:19 -0800 Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What else does coffee have in it besides caffeine? Are there other active ingredients? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America Need To Be Destroyed As It Is In Its Current Form?
What is your current belief concerning the United States? Does it need to be destroyed in its present form--White House, Congressional buildings, Pentagon, etc., as Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden think or should it remain with its current governmental structural architecture? I know that the Constitutional government should remain, but there could be a radical change in administration if all our forms of government become much smaller due to the House and Senate leadership being destroyed by these characters. Will the future Congress be holding sessions in the parking lot? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
It shocked me to realize that coffee has theophylline in it. That's considered a medicine by doctors. I think it dilates the bronchials. Interesting. Stacy. At 08:03 PM 11/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: Interesting -- I didn't know that. A case of faux amis (false cognates). So what's phylline from? The only thing I can think of, going from my limited knowledge of Greek, is type in the sense of something that's in a class of things that have something in common. (Same as the word phylum) So I would, offhand, speculate that theophylline means substances derived from tea. Is that correct? Ronn Blankenship wrote: At 08:43 PM 11/16/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: The term theobromine, incidentally, comes from Greek, drink of the Gods, and was applied to chocholate in drinkable form when it was first brought to Europe. Theophylline, however, does not mean friend of the gods, as one might naively guess from the above. In fact, the theo in the latter compound is derived from tea while the same portion of theobromine is derived from the word deo or theo for a deity . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Does America Need To Be Destroyed As It Is In Its Current Form?
I guess I'm referring to the next couple of years or so. Stacy. At 06:05 PM 11/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: To complicate the question, one might also ask what is the future of nation-states in general? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Hogwarts and all
I'm much less enthused by Harry Potter. This was discussed on another list, so I'll just say that I think it could encourage young people in a totally different direction. Maybe I'll have to eat humble pie and read all of the books to find out because so many LDS people seem to be in favor of it. Don't you know that'll just irritate Protestant Fundamentalists worse than anything else? They'll think we're Satanists for sure! Stacy. At 04:49 AM 11/17/2002 +, you wrote: -Gary- My wife and I saw it today. What a great film. I haven't read the books, but now will have to do it. Definitely a great series. This film was better than the first, and the first was really good. I like how so many characters were developed in such a short time, and the power behind the plot. Also, the humor was much better in this one than the last. Funny coincidence. We just took the kids to it today, too. I agree that it was better done than the first, though I personally am quite happy that Chris Columbus is out of the picture (so to speak) from now on. A director can't help but leave his fingerprints all over his opus, and Stonehands Columbus leaves mighty big prints. Michelle disagrees, but in this, I'm right. You should realize that not everyone is taken by the books. Our own Mark is less than fond of them, for example. But I think they're fun. The fact that a successful and entertaining film adaptation can be made by Chris Columbus should be evidence enough of solid concept and good screenplay translation of a fundamentally sound novel. :) Question: my wife heard a rumor that the actor who played the big gentle giant guy that Harry hooks onto (the one who wanted a dragon in the first movie) has recently died in an accident. Anyone know if this is true? I hope not, as his character truly helps round out the movies. Not as far as I know. Richard Harris, the actor who played Dumbledore, died a few weeks ago. (By the way -- and I don't think this qualifies as any sort of spoiler -- they should have made Hagrid about twice as big. Ah, well.) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Something Else To Ponder
I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? Stacy. At 05:59 AM 11/17/2002 +, you wrote: Quick recap and primer for all interested parties (or should I say, both interested parties): Xanthine (ZAN-theen) is purine with oxygens bonded in the 2 and 6 positions, that is, 2,6-dihydroxypurine. Ronn also referred to this as 2,6-dioxopurine and as purine-2,6-dione, apparently following alternate (I would guess older) nomenclatures. Structurally, it's actually a fairly small, simple molecule. See http://www.serva.de/products/data/38420.01.shtml for details. If you take xanthine and bond methyl groups (CH3) to it, you get a family of substances called (unsurprisingly) methylxanthines. If you bond three methyls in the 1, 3, and 7 positions, you get 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, also called caffeine. This is the best-known of the methylxanthines, which share some similar physiological properties. If you bond only two methyl groups instead of three, you get a related but slightly different molecule. Exactly which molecule you get depends on where you put the methyls: If you bond the two methyls to the 3 and 7 positions, you get theobromine, which Ronn tells us is the primary methylxanthine found in chocolate. Thus, when people tell you that chocolate doesn't contain any caffeine, they are technically correct, though wrong in spirit. Theobromine differs chemically from caffeine only by a single methyl group, and its stimulant properties are not dissimilar. If you bond the two methyls to the 1 and 3 positions, you get theophylline (1,3-dimethylxanthine), which Ronn tells us is more common in tea than in coffee or chocolate. It's also an asthma treatment because it's a bronchodilator, something Stacy apparently realizes. Ronn tells us that regular old caffeine can be used in a pinch as a bronchodilator, as well. If you bond the two methyls to the 1 and 7 positions, which was Ronn's missing family member, you get paraxanthine, or 1,7-dimethylxanthine. Unsurprisingly, this is a major caffeine metabolite, which is to say that this is one of the chemicals produced by your body when it breaks down caffeine. It's also identified as an adenosine receptor ligand, which means it ties itself to certain receptor sites. By the way, that's typically how psychoactive drugs work -- they attach themselves to various receptor sites. Does this mean that paraxanthine is a psychoactive drug? I don't know; maybe. Perhaps other xanthines or methylxanthines act as adenosine receptor ligands. Maybe that's ultimately how caffeine produces its effects on the brain. In any case, now you have some idea about caffeine (found in coffee) and three closely related chemicals, theobromine (found in chocolate), theophylline (found in tea), and paraxanthine (found in Starbucks customers). Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Coffee, Tea or Eternity
The reason I can't drink that barley drink is that I haven't found a good way to measure it easily. Stacy. At 09:33 AM 11/18/2002 -0700, you wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: Then why can't the church take an active stance on caffeine if that is the real problem? Because the WoW is not so much a health law as it is a spiritual law. It is one of the ways that the Church uses to determine which members are serious about the restored gospel and which are not. That is why it is one of the temple recommend questions. But temple recommend interview is not asking us about caffeine, meat, eating sparingly, drinking mild barley drinks, etc. When my mother, who had a hard time giving up tea and coffee when she joined the Church in the late 50s, switched to Postum, at the suggestion of one of her mentors, Barbara Benson Walker, ETB's daughter, whose husband was our first bishop. Postum is basically made out of roasted barley. I couldn't stand the stuff, but I think she still drinks it. In Germany they have another barley drink, but its name escapes me at the moment. It is specifically asing us about tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco. Beyond that there are a lot of things we can do to improve our health. It is just not that part of the WoW that the Lord is currently using to deterine temple worthiness. Maybe the Lord should include regular aerobic execise, or avoiding too much salt, or cutting down on our cholesterol, etc. He could have included these things in the WoW if he had wanted to. But he didn't. He could have also told the early Saints to boil their drinking water they got from the Mississippi, which would have prevented a cholera epidemic Nauvoo suffered through at one point, iirc. But he didn't. I'm with JWR on this -- it's only superficially about health. Put another way, health becomes a kind of type for spirituality. It's a law of obedience and helps set us apart as a spiritual community, as Zion. I think it is wrong for me to drinks Cokes, but not because it is a WoW violation. I don't think it is. The reason I think it is a sin for me to drink Cokes is because I become addicted to them and lose control over how many of them I drink. But every person is different. A lot of people can drink Cokes without becoming addicted. So, caffeine is a bad idea for those who have a weakness for it. But it is not mentioned in the Word of Wisdom and is not part of it any more than avoiding fatty foods or using too much white sugar. Besides, several places in the New Testament the Savior teachines that true religion is not a matter of meat and drink but charity, loving our neighbor, administering to the needs of widows and orphans, etc. If we get hung up on WoW, we are going to overlook the more important parts of the gospel. Or at least that is the way it seems to me today. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stacy. At 05:43 PM 11/16/2002 -0500, you wrote: I have heard that tannic acid is used in the making of coffee and tea and that can be more harmful than caffeine. It's kind of reminiscent of the WhiteLies anti-smoking campaign telling us what is REALLY in a cigarette--it ain't just tobacco. Yet I can remember not so many years ago when it was cool to smoke Kools etc. My how things change in a couple of decades. On the subject of caffeine, as for me and (sometimes) mine--I have heard President Hinckley, twice, say on national television that we do not drink soda with caffeine, and that is good enough for me (is this a liberal stance ;-p). My two inactive sons do their own thing with that, but when I drive to the temple in Chicago, and afterward go to Jewel to stock up on caffeine free Dr. Pepper, they are ecstatic. I have not yet been able to get local bottlers to get the caffeine free DP here. your sis in Mishawaka val On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:11:19 -0800 Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What else does coffee have in it besides caffeine? Are there other active ingredients? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
Re: [ZION] Hogwarts and all
As a young girl I never cared to play with dolls. Stacy. At 08:01 PM 11/17/2002 -0600, you wrote: Well, I'll confess that I've been seen occasionally at the DnD table with my son and his friends. My current character, an Elven priest, was zapped into oblivion recently. While I've been busy (and dead in the other realm), the other players were kind enough to get me resurrected. I'm ready to answer any questions about the other side to those who want to know. ;-) I find that fantasy is good, as long as one does not live his life in it. It is an escape, but with anything in this world, it can be addictive and distracting from the important things. I suppose that's why I don't play DnD more than 3-4 times a year usually. There are too many real things to do. Life needs some fun. And we need to be able to develop our imaginations. What books got you reading when you were a kid? How many of you in first grade, were captivated by Stephen Gould's explanations on evolution? Not many, eh? How many were role-playing Spiderman, the Fantastic Four, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman? Where did you learn of them? Cartoons, comics, etc. Then again, email lists, chat groups, and internet are about as close to fantasy as some get, eh? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: I'm much less enthused by Harry Potter. This was discussed on another list, so I'll just say that I think it could encourage young people in a totally different direction. Maybe I'll have to eat humble pie and read all of the books to find out because so many LDS people seem to be in favor of it. Don't you know that'll just irritate Protestant Fundamentalists worse than anything else? They'll think we're Satanists for sure! Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Mail Returning
On another list it was possible to stop my own mail from coming back to me. Do we have such a provision on this list? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] No Desire To Discuss What Is Forbidden
Guys and gals, I finally read the charter just now. I found out, to my utter delight, that I haven't violated any charter rules, nor did I ever have a desire to discuss such topics as are forbidden by charter rules. It seems as though I have already been obeying charter rules without even knowing it! What a delight to find out that the charter rules are not contrary to my own human nature and convention. Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which would lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be nonaddictive? Stacy. At 05:52 PM 11/19/2002 +, you wrote: -Stacy- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain chemistry can't lead to closer communion with the Spirit of God. Individual exceptions doubtless exist regarding those who supplement their natural deficiencies with attempted replacement; for example, I doubt epilepsy _per se_ brings people unto Christ, so Dilantin or something of the sort may well put those so afflicted in a literally better frame of mind. One of my favorite missionary companions, who became a close personal friend both during and after my mission, told me of his pre-mission, pre-Church-activity drug usage. He said that, in retrospect, a cocaine high reminded him of nothing so much as a deep spiritual experience -- except that there was no communion with the Spirit, and that true spirituality doesn't end with a crash that leaves the person suicidal. He believed that many drug users crave this feeling of spiritual peace and serenity, and that's why they become addicted. I realize you probably weren't talking about illegal drug usage, but I thought it a relevant insight anyway. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
I believe Christ. I may not always believe in the efficacy of my own repentance or that I have done enough to satisfy good repentance. Stacy. At 06:34 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the Atonement for you (and me)? Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! Jon - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:49 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. Stacy. At 12:31 AM 11/18/2002 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? --- We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. --- Mij Ebaboc /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Coffee, Tea or Eternity
If the recommendations were changed to not include caffeine, why not, since we know the following about it? I read or heard on the radio that caffeine takes calcium from the bones. If this is true, it seems likely that it should be included. Stacy. At 06:06 AM 11/20/2002 +, you wrote: Jon, It appears that the generally accepted definition of hot drinks may have been fairly broad for a period of time. A quote from Widtsoe's 1937 book on the Word of Wisdom-- Caffeine, the essential principle of tea and coffee, was discovered, as a chemical substance, a few years before the Word of Wisdom was received. This knowledge was, however, buried in scientific publications. It is very unlikely that the Prophet Joseph Smith had heard of it. It was many years after 1833 that the physiological effect of caffeine was established by science. In the days of Joseph Smith, tea and coffee did not come in for the disfavor shown by some towards alcohol and tobacco. Indeed, people were often advised to use tea and coffee as a means of conquering the liquor habit. That the expression hot drinks was used in the Word of Wisdom rather than coffee and tea, is notable; for by so doing a host of other injurious habit-forming beverages now used (or that may be used) become subject to the Word of Wisdom. ( John A. Widtsoe and Leah D. Widtsoe, The Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1937], 99.) I see several other quotes from Church authorities during the mid-nineteen-hundreds that contain similar language with reference to caffeine-containing beverages. As far as I can recall, it was never interpreted thus during my lifetime. Apparently the revision to more narrowly focus the Word of Wisdom came about some time after the 1940's. It would also seem more significant, I suppose, if we knew specifically what the requirements for a temple recommend were based on. Again, my experience over the last thirty years is that the temple recommend interview only focused specifically on tea and coffee as hot drinks. No bishop has ever questioned me about using caffeine. --- Mij Ebaboc Jon Spencer wrote: --- We talked about this issue today with a couple of sister customers in our bookstore. They both recall that when they were married (many moons ago), it was taught that caffeine was against the WoW. They said it was in the lesson manuals (I'll take their word for it because I am just a newbie - 9 years). They also knew that that had been retracted. --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] End Times and How On Earth To Explain This To A Nonmember?
My sister is asking about our view of end times. Since this gets very complicated--explaining things even from the beginning basics to someone who really has no desire to convert--how would you suggest I explain this subject to my sister? I am in a quandary. Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Add to this mess people whose families are controlling and a society that does not care about that and you have a recipe for psychological anxiety-producing events of such a magnitude we haven't seen in past ages. Stacy. At 06:42 AM 11/22/2002 -0600, you wrote: It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer car problems, etc... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] No Redelfs Citings?
In this country we have freedom to literally go anywhere as far as the government is concerned. I have to make that caveat. There are some others who would still limit our freedom. Stacy. At 07:34 AM 11/22/2002 -0500, you wrote: At 20:45 11/21/2002 +, M Larry wrote: No Redelfs Citings? That's a good thing, actually. First, we wouldn't expect our fine upstanding BLT to be cited by anyone as he cruises northward on his whirlwind international tour. A citation would certainly be an indication of a lack of moderation in all things, and not just the temporary lack of a Moderator in this Zion List thing. Second, elves shouldn't be red. Right, Till? I think I red that somewhere in my instruction manuel. So does the lack of a citing mean that he is in situ? Till who has the situation bien a mano -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Science dissonance
Okay, now I'm afraid what I have to say could be considered totally whacko, revolutionary and grounds for me to be committed to a psychiatric institution, but here goes. Within certain parameters, and even outside them if you know what to do, I believe firmly that we can tell our bodies to do something and it will be done because of our belief in the intelligences behind our body parts. On a couple of instances I have been able to tell my body to do something and it has done it. Stacy. At 11:13 AM 11/22/2002 +, you wrote: Adaptation that can be properly characterized as mimicry in plants is indicative of some mechanism or force that cannot be accounted for within the current domain of evolutionary philosophy. My belief is that the science of evolution cannot accomodate or explain the gradual development of complex subsystems that confer no adaptive advantage to the organism before they are wholly in place and fully functional. In the case of plants which mimic an aphid infestation, it is not possible for any isolated individual characteristic of the multiple adaptive changes required to begin mimicing, to give these plants any higher level of fitness. For example, aphid-like stem growths may consist of several changes at the tissue level of the plant to effectively serve as aphid mimics. Disruption of the regularly smooth deposition of phloem and epidermal tissue layers must take place, to mimic the irregular shape of aphids attached to the plant stem. Subsequently, the irregular tissue must assume contrasting pigmentation to complete the hoax. Neither feature is useful as a mimic independent of the other. Since neither feature independent of the other provides the plant with any evolutionary advantage, any motivating cause for such changes is lacking, and there is nothing to support the idea that the plants developed these features through adaptive evolution. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] More tales of friendly fire
You know what never made sense to me? Why would the Lamanites mark themselves? I'm sure the Taliban never marked themselves up to be identified. Stacy. At 09:19 PM 11/21/2002 -0600, you wrote: At 10:48 AM 11/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Several JTF2 units have been rotated out of Afghanistan, specifically two sniper units, 6-3-Alpha A and 6-3-Alpha B. They have some interesting stories about sharing their sleeping positions (they didn't have bags, they just slept with plant and sand camouflage) Gillie suits? with scorpions and snakes, but the worst thing they faced was US Apache helicopters, who sometimes mistook them for Taliban. But their successes made a big difference, along with those of their US and British counterparts. 6-3-Alpha's motto is one shot, one kill, and they have modified rifles that shoot steel-jacketed extra-powerful rounds that can pierce even light armour (including kevlar bulletproof shields). Is that the .50-caliber sniper rifle? (I don't know the official metric designation, but .5 inch = 12.7 mm, if that helps.) Many nights, I am the last person in the building after class ends at 9 pm and I have to put away the lab and audiovisual equipment I've used, and frequently I'm still there when whichever campus police officer got that particular duty for that night comes around to lock up the building, and, if neither of us is in a hurry, sometimes we talk for a few minutes. One night the sergeant told me that he had done something the past weekend that he thought I would have enjoyed¹: he had gone to a tactical workshop where he had been trained to fire that .50-caliber sniper rifle. _ ¹FWIW, what he meant was that I would have enjoyed the challenge of trying to hit a _target_ the size of a man's head a mile and a half away. So far, I have never pointed a weapon at a human being, much less fired one, and, God willing, I never will have any need to . . . although I did earn an expert rating with a pistol, so long as I am shooting at a man made of heavy paper . . . 2250 metres was the previous military distance kill record, set in Vietnam (official; obviously many covert successes don't make it into the book) but a Newfoundland MCpl made a 2430 m kill in Afghanistan that is apparently now the world record. The Taliban never even knew he was in anyone's scopes, and wouldn't even have heard the shot before he died. Each unit consisted of 3 men, and Mike Smith of the CBC interviewed them for an item on the news this morning (5 of them, actually -- a 6th member was seconded to them from the US Special Forces in an exchange program. Naturally he got nicknamed Zee which, I understand, is a popular brand of toilet paper in the US...). --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Well, how many of them are diagnosed with true ADHD? Stacy. At 03:01 PM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: Dan R Allen wrote: --- This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? --- Jim: It seems more likely that this report is conflated with other legitimate concerns. It is widely reported that Ritalin is popular for prescription drug abuse on college campuses. http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/; I would need to see more substantive information sources to think that Ritalin would be so widely prescribed for young missionaries. And based on my own observation, I seriously doubt that illegal drug use is a widespread problem among Church missionaries. Dan: The comment wasn't made in the mode of abuse/illegal use, but the belief that a large number of missionaries are reporting to the mission field with pre-existing prescriptions, and that it might be playing a factor in where missionaries are assigned (the assumption was that the drug and prescriptions are easier to maintain/fill in NA.) I do know that it is heavily prescribed, whether justified or not I can't really say. It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
I ran across that passage in Alma recently and marveled. I thought to myself, Why should this be, as the Taliban aren't known to have marked themselves, right? At any rate, I was somewhat awed and wondered about the saying. I think I am storing up things to ponder in my heart. Stacy. At 12:06 PM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: Gary favored us all with: There clearly is a symbolic level to the marks. But often there are both physical and spiritual parts of a symbol. Babylon, for example, is an actual city in antiquity. It also symbolically represents the telestial world, built on greed and power. Although not all the wicked may have the physical mark on their hands/foreheads, it is possible that many will; while all will have the spiritual mark of Babylon/Satan on them. I believe we will see a physical mark put into place in Europe before long, as part of the EU. One thing my dad taught to me (and is confirmed in the Book of Mormon - see Alma 3:13-19) was that people who are disobeying the commandments of God typically mark themselves. It could be in the way that they dress, piercings, tatoos, or any number of ways. He explained that while he was on his mission in Germany during the late 60's (early 70's), he and his companion found and began teaching a man and woman the Gospel. They were both decked out in the style of the time, with the woman wearing clothing that were not modest, and they were both unkept and dirty. While the man was not interested in the message, the woman was, and as she progressed through the discussions the woman's appearance began to change. She did away with the fashion of the day, cleaned herself up, and dressed modestly. She felt the Spirit and was converted. The missionaries never mentioned to her that she needed to change her dressing habits, but she was taught what she needed by the Spirit. She was eventually baptized. Perhaps this is why the Brethren insist that we dress modestly, avoid the fads of the day, and be clean in appearance. Perhaps it is so we can let [our] light so shine before men, that they may see [our] good works, and glorify [our] Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 5:16) Perhaps this is one of the ways that we mark ourselves unto righteousness and show the world that we are the servants of Christ. What do you think? Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
My first observation still stands. :Even though we feel we need some of these chemicals, does it limit personal revelation? I wasn't trying to ridicule, only trying to figure out whether or not these things would limit our ability to get personal revelation. Stacy. At 06:58 PM 11/21/2002 +, you wrote: My regular diatribe on this question-- Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and generally unfavorable discrimination. Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in despair. If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on schedule. Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help us get by. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] End Times and How On Earth To Explain This To A Nonmember?
I would like to start by laying a foundation to support our view that this is a modern invention, the Scottish concept of rapture, I mean. How do I go about this? I believe it is only by doing this that I can lend any credence to our views that a person not inclined to believe in modern-day prophets would accept. Stacy. At 09:55 AM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: If she has a well-developed theological vocabulary, start by telling her our eschatology is mildly millennarist, but not developed to the point where we worry about either pre- mid- or post-millennarism. We also reject the late 19th-century Scottish innovation known as rapture. Stacy Smith wrote: My sister is asking about our view of end times. Since this gets very complicated--explaining things even from the beginning basics to someone who really has no desire to convert--how would you suggest I explain this subject to my sister? I am in a quandary. Stacy. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] End Times and HOw on earth to explain to a nonmember?
It's my understanding that it is the belief of those who believe in the rapture theory do not believe the transformation will take place years before Christ's coming but in fact will take place at Christ's coming. I used to be a believer in this rapture theory myself, as I used to be a Fundamentalist Christian. I think I can send this e-mail to my sister basically outlining everything and take it from there. Stacy. At 10:58 AM 11/21/2002 -0600, you wrote: Explain first of all that we have modern scripture that gives us new inputs. Keep it basic, don't get very specific, because we don't have full specifics on it (just many opinions, such as mine). Tell her that we believe that in the last days there will be many wicked on the earth, ripened for destruction. The saints and other good peoples may have to gather in places of refuge (what we call Zion and her stakes) for protection, just as they did in Enoch's day prior to the Flood. We believe that eventually the Jews will be attacked by a vast army from a world empire (modern Babylon), which will be Armageddon. After 3 1/2 years of fighting, Christ will come down for the Second Coming. the wicked will be destroyed from off the earth, while the righteous (terrestrial and celestial) will be blessed to dwell in a paradisiacal earth for one thousand years with Christ as King. We do not believe in the Rapture, as many evangelists believe. The Rapture has no biblical support. There is an article on the Internet by Gary North (an evangelist Christian) discussing the history of this belief. It started in England in the 1800s in a small Church and quickly gathered support from people who liked the idea of avoiding the huge dangers and destructions at the last days. The Rapture theory says that 3.5 years before Armageddon starts, the righteous will be carried up to God, avoiding the dangers. Nothing in the Bible says that. The Bible does talk about Translation. Paul says that at Christ's coming, there will be people who will be lifted up to see him. These will be changed, so as not to taste of death. Previous peoples that have been translated are Enoch and his people, Melchizedek and his people, Alma, Moses (perhaps), John the Revelator, and the Three Nephites. There may be some individuals who will be translated prior to the Second Coming of Christ, as the Lord tells us there will be two in the field and one will be taken as in the days of Noah (people were translated up to the city of Enoch, in order to avoid the Flood.) It reads: (Matthew 24:37-42.) 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 ¶ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. You'll note the translations occur with the Second Coming, not years before. This is probably the biggest evidence agaisnt the rapture. Also, why should Christ and other good people of the past have to suffer so much, but the righteous avoid it in the last? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: My sister is asking about our view of end times. Since this gets very complicated--explaining things even from the beginning basics to someone who really has no desire to convert--how would you suggest I explain this subject to my sister? I am in a quandary. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
Re: [ZION] Coffee, tea or eternity?
I have endeavored to eat raw vegetables but find they really don't agree with me. What am I supposed to do if my family absolutely insists I eat them? It is questions of this nature that trouble me. Stacy. At 10:00 AM 11/21/2002 -0600, you wrote: The Lord tells us he doesn't/shouldn't have to command in all things. The WoW is written for the weakest of saints. It is the minimum standard for us to live by. As members mature, they tend to seek higher levels of spirituality, and will often, through the Spirit, create their own personal commandments. Why do so many members not drink caffeine drinks? Because the Spirit has guided them to that decision. It becomes personally binding on them, but not on others who are not prepared. The gospel is like this in many things. The commandments give us minimum compliance, and then the Spirit teaches us the higher things. This way, we don't need to be slothful servants: commanded in all things. Do I need the bishop to instruct me in every service project I am involved in? Of course not. I should actively seek opportunities to do good works, whether in the church or out. Do I pay just a tithe? Or do I consecrate more of my funds by paying a very generous fast offering? No one commands me just what amount I should pay for fast and other offerings. I follow what the Spirit guides me to do. So it is with the WoW. We grow in it as we grow in the Spirit. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy, If the recommendations were changed to not include caffeine, why not, since we know the following about it? I read or heard on the radio that caffeine takes calcium from the bones. If this is true, it seems likely that it should be included. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
