Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Friday 03 February 2006 15:11, Jeff Shell wrote:
I'm trying to think of other examples where people have produced a new
brand name by adding a version number. MacOS X? PlayStation2? I'm
I agree. Apple was able to get the message out that Mac OS X = Mac OS
10 = A totally different architecture than Mac OS {6,7,8,9}. Inside
of Mac OS X, Apple has turned their code names into release/brand
names like Jaguar and Tiger, but as a long time Mac OS X user -
whenever those names come up in discussion (when did this feature show
up? I remember upgrading to ..., etc), there's always the wait, don't
you mean Panther? no, I mean Jaguar. Wait. Which one was 10.3?
This is an excellent point!
Regards,
Stephan
--
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
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Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 11:54 +0100, Lennart Regebro wrote: On the name change idea, I think it's just gonna make things more confused. What, there is now Zope 2, Zope 3 AND Zope Zingo? I think the idea was Zope 3.2 Zingo, Zope 3.4 Bingo, not Zope Zingo :) This way it would be clear it is Zope 3. I guess something like Ubuntu 5.10 Breezy. Alen ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Alen Stanisic wrote: On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 11:54 +0100, Lennart Regebro wrote: On the name change idea, I think it's just gonna make things more confused. What, there is now Zope 2, Zope 3 AND Zope Zingo? I think the idea was Zope 3.2 Zingo, Zope 3.4 Bingo, not Zope Zingo :) This way it would be clear it is Zope 3. I guess something like Ubuntu 5.10 Breezy. Hehe, I'm +1 for funny code names and -1 for renaming. Tonico ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On 2/3/06, Alen Stanisic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the idea was Zope 3.2 Zingo, Zope 3.4 Bingo, not Zope Zingo :) Well, all we do then is making funny release code names. That's not clarifying the difference between Zope 2 and Zope 3 at all... This way it would be clear it is Zope 3. Eh, no... You could do Zope 2.10 Fluffybunny as well. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. YESSS! Zope3 - imho - has a really big marketing Problem at the moment. Unfortunatetly if you look at zope.org you see mostly see Zope2 stuff. That is bad. And we all know that a lot of the python developers didn't like Z2 and they do not know how different Z3 is. Still at the beginning of digging into Z3, I have a feeling that this is another damn great peace of software that should be used more widely. However, another important point here is to lower that barrier when it comes to get started with Z3. There are 2 Books about Z3, which is a good starting point. There is a much better documented API than Z2 ever had. There are ready-to-go components that work. There have been a few succesfull Projects based on Z3 already. BUT no one knows about it in the wild. So what can we do about it? Pull out a Website about Z3 in a similar way the RubyOnRails, Django, TurboGears (and other...) Frameworks have done. Get some more people talking about Z3. Go out and spread the word ;-) I will do what I can to be a part of this here in Germany at DZUG. Kind Regards Maik ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On 2/3/06, Tonico Strasser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alen Stanisic wrote: On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 11:54 +0100, Lennart Regebro wrote: On the name change idea, I think it's just gonna make things more confused. What, there is now Zope 2, Zope 3 AND Zope Zingo? I think the idea was Zope 3.2 Zingo, Zope 3.4 Bingo, not Zope Zingo :) This way it would be clear it is Zope 3. I guess something like Ubuntu 5.10 Breezy. Hehe, I'm +1 for funny code names and -1 for renaming. Tonico This has been an interesting thread. My feeling is that the Ubuntu style code names are a very good idea. I know the fixed-length release cycles are still fairly new, but making them a bit sexier seems like a good idea in this case. Ideally, it would go along with a new website, or perhaps some wiki pages, with a roadmap. Among geeks, new releases are exciting business. Of course, the people actually making the releases are already so busy, I have no idea who would maintain and update such a roadmap. But, on the other hand, I'm just fine with Zope's current level of advocacy. Alec Munro ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2/2/06, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sense from the sprint is that developers here use Zope 3 on its technical merits and not its marketing ones. Which is why we should market those strengths better. On the name change idea, I think it's just gonna make things more confused. What, there is now Zope 2, Zope 3 AND Zope Zingo? As I understood the original suggestion, it would be more like Zope 3.2 Zalza (how many more lame names can we come up with?) with an appropriate branding (e.g. a logo derived from the Zope logo and a new website to drum up excitement and get people started quickly). Both the Zope and 3 parts should stay in the picture. There may have been a time for renaming (or maybe not), but with two books, mailing lists etc. losing the Zope 3 moniker would hurt more than it would help at this point. The idea is not to undermine what Zope has achieved so far, but to let the ouside world know that Zope 3 is here, it's new, it's worth checking out, and we think it's stable and ready. A little shouting can go a long way, and like it or not, people will judge Zope not only on its technical merits, but also on how much effort it put into making those merits visible and accessible. It took me four weeks to get through Philipp's book and only then did I realise Z3's potential. And I only started reading that because I realised knowing it may be good for my involvement with Plone - all I really cared about was Five. I really doubt many people will be able to make that kind of investment just to find out if the framework is even appropriate for them. :) Martin ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2/3/06, Alen Stanisic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the idea was Zope 3.2 Zingo, Zope 3.4 Bingo, not Zope Zingo :) Well, all we do then is making funny release code names. That's not clarifying the difference between Zope 2 and Zope 3 at all... This way it would be clear it is Zope 3. Eh, no... You could do Zope 2.10 Fluffybunny as well. The point is not to make fluffy release names. The point is to have some sort of branding - a name, a logo, a colour scheme, a web site, a set of 10-minute tutorials, a set of code examples, a set of exemplars of systems that have been built successfuly on Zope 3 and are kicking ass, a set of press releases to the likes of slashdot, freshmeat, and other sites that geeks read. It all needs to come together. But having a name that signifies that there is something a little more than a new major-version release going on here would go a long way in giving people something to fix their minds on. Exactly how much Zope 2 code is in Zope 3? This is Zope only because it is built by the same community and draws on the experiences of Zope 2, it is much more of a revolution than an evolution. It's Zope - tried that, didn't like it or Zope - never heard of it vs. Zope 3 Zest, you say? Sounds like something new and exciting, I better check it out... oooh, look, pretty web site, aha, I see how this fits together, you know, I think I may buy a book and learn a little more. (and if you think that's an unreasonable account of a selection process, you haven't worked much with people outside our little sphere). There are a lot of people on the periphery voicing these concerns, and it seems that only people who already know Zope inside-out think that everything's just fine and dandy. Is it really? Or is it just fear of change? Martin ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 01:07:57PM +, Martin Aspeli wrote: Max M [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not calling it Zope would be a mistake, but how about adding a qualifier to the name. Like microsoft did with Windows NT I think that's what the suggestion is all about. eg. Zope DR aka Zope Done Right Heh, I like that. :) I think DR is a little too abstract still, I'd prefer a name that people could remember a little more easily. Zope-TNG (The Next Generation) springs up my mind. And it is a good description of what it is really about. -- __ Nothing is as subjective as reality Reinoud van Leeuwen[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.xs4all.nl/~reinoud __ ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On 2/3/06, Reinoud van Leeuwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 01:07:57PM +, Martin Aspeli wrote: Zope-TNG (The Next Generation) springs up my mind. And it is a good description of what it is really about. The problem with TNG is how will you call the rewrite of Zope 3 ? :) Zope 4 TANG - The After Next Generation? does sound too good Not that I think Zope 3 will ever need a rewrite.. Ben. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But having a name that signifies that there is something a little more than a new major-version release going on here would go a long way in giving people something to fix their minds on. Not if that name changes with every release, becuase then people will see it as a release code name, because that's what it will be. Absolutely - we seem to be on the same page. :) The branding needs to be consistent and carried forward, until such time we refactor the whole thing again and call it Zope 4. :) Martin ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Not if that name changes with every release, becuase then people will see it as a release code name, because that's what it will be. Absolutely - we seem to be on the same page. :) The branding needs to be consistent and carried forward, until such time we refactor the whole thing again and call it Zope 4. :) That's *exactly* the point. +1 from me on that and for the Zope4 thing ;-) Regards Maik ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Martin Aspeli wrote: Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But having a name that signifies that there is something a little more than a new major-version release going on here would go a long way in giving people something to fix their minds on. Not if that name changes with every release, becuase then people will see it as a release code name, because that's what it will be. Absolutely - we seem to be on the same page. :) The branding needs to be consistent and carried forward, until such time we refactor the whole thing again and call it Zope 4. :) My university, Virginia Tech, is doing something similar right now, and I think it is in part due to recent negative publicity involving athletics (I could be wrong). The vision includes a new trademarked tagline (Invent the Future) and a new logo incorporating the tagline. http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/story.php?relyear=2006itemno=53 We could do something similar: Zope 3: Excellence in Web Component Design OK, I'm not a marketer, but something in that vein could help to gain community standing. -Jim Washington ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Reinoud van Leeuwen reinoud.v at n.leeuwen.net writes: On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 01:07:57PM +, Martin Aspeli wrote: Max M maxm at ... writes: Not calling it Zope would be a mistake, but how about adding a qualifier to the name. Like microsoft did with Windows NT I think that's what the suggestion is all about. eg. Zope DR aka Zope Done Right Heh, I like that. :) I think DR is a little too abstract still, I'd prefer a name that people could remember a little more easily. Zope-TNG (The Next Generation) springs up my mind. And it is a good description of what it is really about. It's still abstract and geeky, though. Besides, too many Zope 2 products tacked NG on to their names (TextIndexNG3, anyone?), and it's starting to sound a little silly. Anyway, I think something like this would require some serious time and a serious proposal to be taken to a vote. It's possibly more in the domain of the Zope Foundation (at least it would've been in the Plone Foundation domain ha it been Plone). My vote would go for something that's a name and not an acronym or abbreviation, though. :) Martin ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Ursprüngliche Nachricht Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:42:13 + von: Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] with an appropriate branding (e.g. a logo derived from the Zope logo and a new website to drum up excitement and get people started quickly). Both the Zope and 3 parts should stay in the picture. There may have been a time for renaming (or maybe not) ... That's marketing. In my opinion it's not a good idea to rename zope, never underestimate the value of a brand name. Giving zope 3 an own website has the problem that some www.zope3.tlds are already owned by others. Why not giving Zope 3 a prominent place at the zope.org entry page? The easiest way to start is at a well known place. Just promote Zope 3 at www.zope.org and do not hide it there. -Klaus ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Klaus Bremer wrote: Giving zope 3 an own website has the problem that some www.zope3.tlds are already owned by others. Resolving that problem would be a good task for the Foundation. BTW: zope3.org and zope3.com are owned by Zope Corp. and I would assume are being transfered to the Foundation. zope3.net and zope3.info appear to be controlled by (different) domain squatters. ICANN mediation would likely find in favor of the ZF if action was taken on those. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Florent Guillaume wrote: Martin Aspeli wrote: Zope 3.2 Zalza (how many more lame names can we come up with?) Zope 3 / Rebirth is the lame name I'd vote for :) Or Zope 3 / Renaissance, if french names are still trendy. Florent -- Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France) Director of RD +33 1 40 33 71 59 http://nuxeo.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Fri, Feb 03 17:24, Encolpe Degoute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zope 3 / Revolution ? well, how about Zope3, Reloaded for all the matrix fans out there? :) but seriously, imho an additional name part can add something, but it's by far not as important as a rather impressive web-site. i've looked at the ruby on rails screencasts today for the first time and i have to say that i was quite impressed. to have something like that would probably do no harm, would it? andi -- zeidler it consulting - http://zitc.de/ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] friedelstraße 31 - 12047 berlin - telefon +49 30 25563779 pgp key at http://zitc.de/pgp - http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net/ keine softwarepatente in europa! - http://noepatents.eu.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Andreas Zeidler wrote: On Fri, Feb 03 17:24, Encolpe Degoute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zope 3 / Revolution ? well, how about Zope3, Reloaded for all the matrix fans out there? :) The idea of release code names adds a little spice. Most people like spices on their food, so why not on their software too? But the naming scheme really has to be based on the Tarzan series. Jim's a Tarzan fan. :-) Zope 3.3 Jane, etc. An idea that's bubbling to the top in this discussion is that each 6 month Zope release should include not just new software but also tangible improvements to the community, such as web site improvements, new documentation, and a changing of the guard (so that no one is assigned to write the Zope Weekly News for the rest of their life.) but seriously, imho an additional name part can add something, but it's by far not as important as a rather impressive web-site. i've looked at the ruby on rails screencasts today for the first time and i have to say that i was quite impressed. to have something like that would probably do no harm, would it? Well, zope.com has screencasts. The web site is also a lot less bland than zope.org. Unlike zope.org, it's easy for Zope Corporation to justify the expense of maintaining zope.com. Shane ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
(how many more lame names can we come up with?)Zope 3 / Rebirth is the lame name I'd vote for :) Florent Hm, Zope 3 / Renassaince sounds posh :-) and it's also a good excercise in spelling :p (except for the French-speaking like yourself) Regards, Miklós -- Miklós Prisznyákhttp://www.jegenye.com ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Jegenye 2001 Bt (Miklós Prisznyák) wrote: (how many more lame names can we come up with?) Zope 3 / Rebirth is the lame name I'd vote for :) Florent Hm, Zope 3 / Renassaince sounds posh :-) and it's also a good excercise in spelling :p (except for the French-speaking like yourself) Yeah, it's a plot to keep me from talking about releases. ;) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Friday 03 February 2006 05:38, Maik Ihde wrote: So what can we do about it? I think conducting interviews with people developing pure Zope 3 applications and Five based applications would help. I can provide you with an initial list of people, if you like. Pull out a Website about Z3 in a similar way the RubyOnRails, Django, TurboGears (and other...) Frameworks have done. Get some more people talking about Z3. Go out and spread the word ;-) I agree, Maybe we can ask some Plone UI developers to help us make a sexy UI. I can ask Kamal, since he is here at the sprint. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Friday 03 February 2006 08:48, Jim Washington wrote: The vision includes a new trademarked tagline (Invent the Future) and a new logo incorporating the tagline. http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/story.php?relyear=2006itemno=53 We could do something similar: Zope 3: Excellence in Web Component Design OK, I'm not a marketer, but something in that vein could help to gain community standing. I would be okay with/welcome a cool new logo (yeah), a tagline and other visual improvements. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
I vote for Joel as Omnipotent Message Autocrat. Man, this is the most fun we've had around here in a while. Joel, I agree a lot with your points. A whole lot. I'll add to your list some other things, but that's a useless quibble. I also think the OS X Tiger codename thing could pay off, but it's not the central issue at this point. We need to identify Zope 3's raison d'etre and talk more about it (IMO), which you started below. On the whole...anybody providing that Chuck Norris link should immediately be elevated to the executive suites. --Paul Joel Moxley wrote: The Zope Foundation, which is probably coming pretty darn soon, might help catalyze contributors a bit. It will own the zope3.org domain, the zope.org domain, and probably lots more, and all of the software. But before or after the foundation, I think small steps are more likely to succeed than grand plans. Someone writing an impressive brochure-ware site about Zope 3 is going to be easier and more impressive than trying to get folks to agree on a grand Zope 3 software site. Someone assembling some of the word-smithing in this thread might even generate a simple impressive advocacy *page* that could be linked to from the front of zope.org. I thought Joel's post had some ring to it, for instance. Whether or not we have a Zope 3: Rebel Angel rename :-), it would be great to see Joel or Martin or someone step up to put some advocacy out there. If I can help with trying to figure out who to ask for what, let me know. As I see it, Zope 3's central marketing issue is the lack of a coherent online identity. There needs to be a single place that answers the following questions: 1) What is Zope 3? 2) Why use Zope 3? 3) How does Zope 3 compare to competing frameworks? 4) How do I get started? Largely, this is assembly of the Zope 3 FrontPage, philikon's first two chapters, and the appetizer quick start guides on worldcookery. However, I would also love to see a section on the lead developers answering Q1-Q3. And this would be in conjunction with conveying... Zope3's shtick: Zope3 is not flashy. Zope3 does not put pastel colors on its website. Zope3 is the no-nonsense, industrial strength platform. It's where you come when you want to do it right. It was coded with the most rigorous standards by a bunch of hard-nosed sons of bitches who don't have time for froofy marketing :). And so forth. This would come across in lead dev's answering Q1-Q3. And finally, the site should demonstrate the industrial strength quality with examples. Little snippets from developers of SchoolTool, corporate users, and so forth should demonstrate hey, we're for real, and we don't mess around -- you give me an animated screenshots, I raise you a XYZ transaction per day uber site. In a sense, we'd want to portray ourselves as the Chuck Norris[1] of web platforms :) Bottom line, a coherent online identity would go a long way. Instead of doing some snazzy marketings, let's communicate the character that Zope3 does have. It sounds like zope3.org under ZF might be the ideal way to do this, As for codenames, this is just one way we could help create a coherent online identity. I certainly think release names would be fun (and not distracting to the central Zope 3 brand we'd want). Overall, I think the time has come for communication of Zope 3 identity to move hand in hand with development. Joel [1] For those not familiar with Chuck Norris, he's a no-nonsense martial arts guy and the subject of these very amusing facts. http://www.4q.cc/chuck/index.php?topthirty ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On 2/3/06, Graham Stratton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
Not if that name changes with every release, becuase then people will
see it as a release code name, because that's what it will be.
I agree. Personally I don't think this name change/extension is
necessary. We've already got an extension, it's the '3'. What we need
is for the 3 to be a strong part of the brand name everywhere. It's not
Zope, or Zope 3.x, it's Zope3. I appreciate that this already happens
generally. Zope3 really needs a logo in which the '3' plays a major
role, and looks very different to the existing Zope logo.
I agree with those who have said that Zope3 should have its own website.
If our aim is to make it clear to people that this is something new,
then that site needs a completely different design to the existing Zope
site. For as long as Zope3 looks like Zope 2, people are not going to
expect to find any major changes.
I'm trying to think of other examples where people have produced a new
brand name by adding a version number. MacOS X? PlayStation2? I'm
I agree. Apple was able to get the message out that Mac OS X = Mac OS
10 = A totally different architecture than Mac OS {6,7,8,9}. Inside
of Mac OS X, Apple has turned their code names into release/brand
names like Jaguar and Tiger, but as a long time Mac OS X user -
whenever those names come up in discussion (when did this feature show
up? I remember upgrading to ..., etc), there's always the wait, don't
you mean Panther? no, I mean Jaguar. Wait. Which one was 10.3?
I've used Ubuntu on an old Mac. I couldn't tell you the sub-names of
what version(s) I had. I remember 5.04 and 5.10. hoary hedgehog and
sneezing akita could be the names for all I remember or care. KDE
3.2, Gnome 2.8... I don't know... For me, all of those numbers are
easy to track.
Something that has been hard to balance is how to manage the Zope 3
is architecturally marvelous and stupendous compared to Zope 2... But
Zope 2 doesn't actually suck! message. I think that the advent of
Zope 3.2 and the growth of Five in Zope 2 (what is the current Zope 2
release anyways?) should make that message easier to get out.
I've advocated a site concept here many times in the past, and I'm not
going to repeat it. If people think that the Wiki is the best front to
everything, then we deserve our death.
We need:
* Quick access to downloads (I still have problems finding the
download page for Zope 3 on zope.org!)
* A quick summary of:
- Zope 2, why you might be interested in it, what new technologies
from Zope 3 it uses, why Zope 2 still matters. (Zope 2 serves more
audiences than Zope 3)
- Zope 3, why you might be interested in it, why it matters that
it's different than Zope 2, why it's a knockout solution for new
projects.
- The Zope 3 Library - How you might use Zope 3 pieces outside of
the Zope application server, why this should appeal to you as a Python
programmer. How to use Zope 3's library without the ZODB.
- The Zope 3 App Server - How the Zope 3 Library, the ZODB,
ZServer/Twisted and Security come together to deliver comprehensive
multi-protocol web applications.
- Additional Applications and Libraries - What you can look at for
inspiration (Schoolbell, for example), use as an application or use
pieces of (ie, how to use schoolbell.relationship on its own [1]), and
how easy it is to write and refactor for reuse.
- Five, how you can start migrating legacy Zope 2 code towards Zope
3 without having to rewrite everything, and how you can take advantage
of the cleaner code options Zope 3 offers without sacrificing your
finely tuned Zope 2 setup.
Alright. That's not a small list, but I do think that the what is
zope, why should I care, and I hear about these different Zope things
and want to know what's different? question should be answered
immediately, with links. The front page for zope.org tried to boil
things down to a few simple bullets. But we need more than bullets,
just as we need more than one big paragraph that tries to
over-summarize. I think TurboGears.org does this well. Look at
http://turbogears.org/about/sqlobject.html -- imagine something like
that for the ZODB that says hey, why even bother with a relational
database for your Python objects? (and at the end could still link to
object-relational mapping topics for Zope 3, as well as direct RDBMS
querying options for supporting data, and a page about how to use
zope.schema to generate safe and validated SQL values just like you
can use it to validate forms and other data).
The other thing that I really really really think is needed is
documentation like Coming in Zope 3.2: formlib. What does it do?
That can help drive interest or excitement in a coming release (and
maybe even bring in more beta testers), and also provide nice
documentation about the new feature to both existing and new
developers. Burying things like formlib and viewlets in bulleted list
of new features
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:16:56 -0800, Joel Moxley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip / Zope 3, the Chuck Norris release. I like it. ;) -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:00:04 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joel, I hope your app is season-ready. :-) On Thursday 02 February 2006 11:50, Joel Moxley wrote: Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. -1 for any renaming. Just curious, but why? Also, he's not suggesting any renaming, only a codename to distinguish Zope 3 from Zope 2. I mean, the leap between Z2 and Z3 is hardly a single major version in anyone else's book. It's more like moving from Visual Basic to Python. Or something. (okay, poor comparison, but it's a major paradigm shift) Bottom line, I think the proof is in the pudding, and Zope3 quality is superb so it's not going anywhere. But a little better organization/marketing to the outside world could go a long way. Actually, the Zope 2 and Plone community are starting using Zope 3 heavily so the marketing will come. I would like to think that every little help. Plone doesn't necessarily market Zope (2), it markets itself as a CMS product. Plone developers are unfortunately poor at contributing to CMF, let alone to Zope core. With the amount of web frameworks out there (And the amount of CMS's) and the amount of noise Ruby-on-Rails is generating, it would be a shame if Zope lost out because no-one had time to make some noise about it. Those very same Plone and Zope 2 developers will be more likely to push towards Zope 3 if they feel others are using it, are convinced it has a future, and are convinced they will be able to collaborate with developers on unrelated products. Zope 2 and CMF buy-in is probably necessary for Zope 3 to grow, but I'm not convinced it's sufficient. Or at least that we should settle for it. Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:50:30 -, Joel Moxley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've followed the Guido blogs/discussion loosely. As a relative newcomer, this is my first real experience with the Python community's confusion of Zope2 and Zope3. I've seen on the list that people have been discussing renaming and other remedies to this problem. You're not the only one. In my opinion, I think a little branding could go a long way. Instead of renaming the entire project, call it Zope3 Zebra or Zope3 Panther (clearly these are horrible, but you can see where I am going with this). Then create a dedicated website www.zope3zebra.org that basically links the Zope 3 book, tutorials, example code, and existing projects like SchoolTool on the front page. Clearly brand it as a industrial-strength, pythonic web framework and a complete rewrite from Zope2. Provide a link to all Python web frameworks and explain the advantages of industrial-strength, non-hackish code for people who want to do it right the first time. This front page will provide a jumping off point for zope3 devs and users. Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. Bottom line, I think the proof is in the pudding, and Zope3 quality is superb so it's not going anywhere. But a little better organization/marketing to the outside world could go a long way. I'm in no position to make decisions, but I think this is a wonderful idea. It strikes a good balance between retaining the Zope brand and marking a fresh start. Philipp W and others have commented on Zope 3's utter lack of marketing (anyone been to zope.org lately?) and how it is probably hurting its adoption. Having just learnt Zope 3 myself, I'm telling others it's wonderful, and then they start talking about web services[1] and wonder what I've been smoking. Very sad. Martin [1] SOAP -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:07, Martin Aspeli wrote: Those very same Plone and Zope 2 developers will be more likely to push towards Zope 3 if they feel others are using it, are convinced it has a future, and are convinced they will be able to collaborate with developers on unrelated products. My sense from the sprint is that developers here use Zope 3 on its technical merits and not its marketing ones. I am personally not that interested in Zope 3 being chosen because of PR. When I signed up as a contributor (btw, I was the first one) it was because I wanted to develop Zope. I already knew that I did not like the CMF due to technical reasons and wanted to bring Zope itself forward. So I joined the Zope 3 effort. I never considered this effort to be anything else but ensuring the future of Zope. I recognized that Zope 2 had lost its edge to its competitors and it was necessary to come up with a new one. Having said that, I feel very strongly that built Zope version 3 and nothing more or less. And I feel that a name change would betray me and my intentions. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:50:30 -0800, Joel Moxley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've followed the Guido blogs/discussion loosely. As a relative newcomer, this is my first real experience with the Python community's confusion of Zope2 and Zope3. I've seen on the list that people have been discussing renaming and other remedies to this problem. In my opinion, I think a little branding could go a long way. Instead of renaming the entire project, call it Zope3 Zebra or Zope3 Panther (clearly these are horrible, but you can see where I am going with this). Then create a dedicated website www.zope3zebra.org that basically links the Zope 3 book, tutorials, example code, and existing projects like SchoolTool on the front page. Clearly brand it as a industrial-strength, pythonic web framework and a complete rewrite from Zope2. Provide a link to all Python web frameworks and explain the advantages of industrial-strength, non-hackish code for people who want to do it right the first time. This front page will provide a jumping off point for zope3 devs and users. Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. Best idea I have seen on the Zope 3 lists in ages. (don't let the curmudgeons beat you down - keep'em coming :) -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
