Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Ed Glassgow]

Good stuff John…

What continually surprises me is how few people are even tuned into virtual 
machines and what crazy useful things you can do with them.  One of the 
companies that I develop software for is completely Windows and they have a 
conference every two years that I attend and present at.  It is interesting to 
watch the reaction of people to see me open my Macbook Pro and have Windows 
projected on the screen behind me.  In the Q & A, I always get questions about 
what they are seeing and how it works.  There are a number of those people that 
have purchased Macs (or were really Mac people that had purchased Windows 
machines just to run the software) and run my software in a virtual machine.

On 9/24/16, 7:56 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of John Baughman" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of john...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

“To each his own”… couldn’t agree more.

The thing about VirtualBox I find fascinating is how good it is and yet how 
unheralded it is. Any discussion of VM software on a Mac and the only players 
you ever hear about are Fusion and Parallels. VirtualBox is never mentioned, 
nor is it advertised by Oracle.

I am not sure I understand why Oracle provides this product for free and so 
religiously keeps it current. I do all my windows 4D development with it and 
everything functions flawlessly. 

As an extreme example of how well VirtualBox works, I have a deployed 4D 
windows client/server database that talks to QuickBooks via COM Objects using 
Windows PowerShell scripts. I do not own a windows machine so had to develop 
this using 3 VirtualBox VMs, one running a Windows 7 4D server machine, one a 
QuickBooks Windows 7 server machine and one a 4D Windows 7 client machine. All 
the VMs were running on my Mac PowerBook. I was able to include a mac 4D Client 
on the PowerBook that could also talk to QuickBooks server via the Windows 4D 
Server. 

I probably could have done the same with Fusion or Parallels, but given my 
prior experience with each do not think it would have been as easy or as stable 
as it was with VirtualBox.

John




> On Sep 24, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:
> 
> This really accentuates the “to each his own” aspect of software.  Total 
upgrade costs for Fusion over the last 3 years has been a total of $100 ($50 
for version 6 to version 7 and $50 for version 7 to version 8, with the upgrade 
from version 8 to version 8.5, the current version that is fully compatible 
with Sierra, is free).  Not too bad for a frequently maintained, solid and 
useful piece of software.  I do all my Windows development using a virtual 
machine running Windows 10 64 bit (on a 12 core Mac Pro, with loads of memory). 
 It has been superb.
> 
> On 9/24/16, 6:54 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Scott Staley" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of isbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>I completely agree with John.  I have also used both Parallels and 
Fusion and
>eventually abandoned them for bootcamp primarily because of the 
constant
>upgrade costs every time there was a system upgrade (either OSX or 
Windows). 
>I use windows infrequently and primarily for code testing and it wasn't
>really a problem doing the full on boot.  
> 
>Then one day one of our IT guys mentioned virtualbox.  Theses guys 
normally
>treat Mac software like it's the plague so I was very surprised to 
find out
>about this from them. I was very pleasantly surprised.  It works great 
and
>it's free.  I actually like it better than both Parallels and Fusion. 
> 
>Unfortunately, like John, I've not tried to emulate mac inside a mac. 
>Hasn't been a need of mine but I recall them discussing it in the 
virtuabox
>instruction.  As I recall the biggest issue being the legality of the
>licensing.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[John Baughman]

“To each his own”… couldn’t agree more.

The thing about VirtualBox I find fascinating is how good it is and yet how 
unheralded it is. Any discussion of VM software on a Mac and the only players 
you ever hear about are Fusion and Parallels. VirtualBox is never mentioned, 
nor is it advertised by Oracle.

I am not sure I understand why Oracle provides this product for free and so 
religiously keeps it current. I do all my windows 4D development with it and 
everything functions flawlessly. 

As an extreme example of how well VirtualBox works, I have a deployed 4D 
windows client/server database that talks to QuickBooks via COM Objects using 
Windows PowerShell scripts. I do not own a windows machine so had to develop 
this using 3 VirtualBox VMs, one running a Windows 7 4D server machine, one a 
QuickBooks Windows 7 server machine and one a 4D Windows 7 client machine. All 
the VMs were running on my Mac PowerBook. I was able to include a mac 4D Client 
on the PowerBook that could also talk to QuickBooks server via the Windows 4D 
Server. 

I probably could have done the same with Fusion or Parallels, but given my 
prior experience with each do not think it would have been as easy or as stable 
as it was with VirtualBox.

John




> On Sep 24, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:
> 
> This really accentuates the “to each his own” aspect of software.  Total 
> upgrade costs for Fusion over the last 3 years has been a total of $100 ($50 
> for version 6 to version 7 and $50 for version 7 to version 8, with the 
> upgrade from version 8 to version 8.5, the current version that is fully 
> compatible with Sierra, is free).  Not too bad for a frequently maintained, 
> solid and useful piece of software.  I do all my Windows development using a 
> virtual machine running Windows 10 64 bit (on a 12 core Mac Pro, with loads 
> of memory).  It has been superb.
> 
> On 9/24/16, 6:54 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Scott Staley" 
> <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of isbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>I completely agree with John.  I have also used both Parallels and Fusion 
> and
>eventually abandoned them for bootcamp primarily because of the constant
>upgrade costs every time there was a system upgrade (either OSX or 
> Windows). 
>I use windows infrequently and primarily for code testing and it wasn't
>really a problem doing the full on boot.  
> 
>Then one day one of our IT guys mentioned virtualbox.  Theses guys normally
>treat Mac software like it's the plague so I was very surprised to find out
>about this from them. I was very pleasantly surprised.  It works great and
>it's free.  I actually like it better than both Parallels and Fusion. 
> 
>Unfortunately, like John, I've not tried to emulate mac inside a mac. 
>Hasn't been a need of mine but I recall them discussing it in the virtuabox
>instruction.  As I recall the biggest issue being the legality of the
>licensing.
> 
> 
> 
>--
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Ed Glassgow]

This really accentuates the “to each his own” aspect of software.  Total 
upgrade costs for Fusion over the last 3 years has been a total of $100 ($50 
for version 6 to version 7 and $50 for version 7 to version 8, with the upgrade 
from version 8 to version 8.5, the current version that is fully compatible 
with Sierra, is free).  Not too bad for a frequently maintained, solid and 
useful piece of software.  I do all my Windows development using a virtual 
machine running Windows 10 64 bit (on a 12 core Mac Pro, with loads of memory). 
 It has been superb.

On 9/24/16, 6:54 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Scott Staley" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of isbo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I completely agree with John.  I have also used both Parallels and Fusion 
and
eventually abandoned them for bootcamp primarily because of the constant
upgrade costs every time there was a system upgrade (either OSX or 
Windows). 
I use windows infrequently and primarily for code testing and it wasn't
really a problem doing the full on boot.  

Then one day one of our IT guys mentioned virtualbox.  Theses guys normally
treat Mac software like it's the plague so I was very surprised to find out
about this from them. I was very pleasantly surprised.  It works great and
it's free.  I actually like it better than both Parallels and Fusion. 

Unfortunately, like John, I've not tried to emulate mac inside a mac. 
Hasn't been a need of mine but I recall them discussing it in the virtuabox
instruction.  As I recall the biggest issue being the legality of the
licensing.



--
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Scott Staley]

I completely agree with John.  I have also used both Parallels and Fusion and
eventually abandoned them for bootcamp primarily because of the constant
upgrade costs every time there was a system upgrade (either OSX or Windows). 
I use windows infrequently and primarily for code testing and it wasn't
really a problem doing the full on boot.  

Then one day one of our IT guys mentioned virtualbox.  Theses guys normally
treat Mac software like it's the plague so I was very surprised to find out
about this from them. I was very pleasantly surprised.  It works great and
it's free.  I actually like it better than both Parallels and Fusion. 

Unfortunately, like John, I've not tried to emulate mac inside a mac. 
Hasn't been a need of mine but I recall them discussing it in the virtuabox
instruction.  As I recall the biggest issue being the legality of the
licensing.



--
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[John Baughman]

Agreed. I have created Mac OS VM using Fusion and found it to be as easy as you 
stated. Never done it with VirtualBox 

I think what I found with my google search was either old or instructions for 
doing it on a windows host, or both.

In VirtualBox the OS Type popup for creating the VM includes OSX, so it may be 
just as easy as it is with Fusion. I've just not done it myself.

John


> On Sep 24, 2016, at 12:19 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:
> 
> I don't think it could be any easier to create a Mac virtual machine using 
> Fusion...  You just select "File... New", then select the installation method 
> which is generally "Install from disk or image", point it at the Mac OS 
> installer app and let it do it's thing.
> 
> Just for fun, I just created a Sierra virtual machine, just because I had the 
> installer sitting on my desktop.  It took less than 20 seconds before it was 
> running and working on the actual install of the OS in the virtual machine.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Sep 24, 2016, at 3:40 PM, John Baughman  wrote:
>> 
>> I don’t think anyone on the forum has ever mentioned Oracle’a VirtualBox. 
>> Several years ago I abandoned Parallels for Fusion finding it much less 
>> prone to compatibility issues and unexplained slow downs. I used Fusion for 
>> a while and one day received a demo VM for a SQL/Web based Facilities 
>> Management application. The VM used VirtualBox and after playing with it for 
>> a while really liked it and made the switch for all my VM needs.
>> 
>> The best part is that it is free. Oracle updates it regularly and I find it 
>> much easier to setup and maintain than Fusion or Parallels. I especially 
>> like the way it handles networking. I often have to move a vm from one 
>> machine to another in different networks. Mac to Mac, Windows to Windows,, 
>> Windows to Mac. Redoing the network setup each time I found to be pretty 
>> easy.  
>> 
>> All my VMs run various flavors of Windows. I have not tried creating a VM 
>> running Mac OS on either a mac or a windows machine. A quick google search 
>> hints that it may a bit more involved than creating a Windows VM.
>> 
>> Given that it is free, wouldn’t hurt to give it a try before jumping into 
>> Fusion or Parallels. I do not think you will be disappointed…
>> 
>> https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
 On Sep 24, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Ortwin Zillgen  wrote:
 
 So, is Fusion preferred over Parallels for Mac OS virtualization?
>>> 
>>> I prefer Parallels over Fusion, most of the time.
>>> 4D does just fine in Parallels and Windows 10.
>>> 
>>> Virtualising SnowLeopard to run v2004 and older does work better in Fusion.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
>>> -
>>>    
>>>  
>>> member of developer-network 
>>> 
>>> **
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Ed Glassgow]

I don't think it could be any easier to create a Mac virtual machine using 
Fusion...  You just select "File... New", then select the installation method 
which is generally "Install from disk or image", point it at the Mac OS 
installer app and let it do it's thing.

Just for fun, I just created a Sierra virtual machine, just because I had the 
installer sitting on my desktop.  It took less than 20 seconds before it was 
running and working on the actual install of the OS in the virtual machine.

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 24, 2016, at 3:40 PM, John Baughman  wrote:
> 
> I don’t think anyone on the forum has ever mentioned Oracle’a VirtualBox. 
> Several years ago I abandoned Parallels for Fusion finding it much less prone 
> to compatibility issues and unexplained slow downs. I used Fusion for a while 
> and one day received a demo VM for a SQL/Web based Facilities Management 
> application. The VM used VirtualBox and after playing with it for a while 
> really liked it and made the switch for all my VM needs.
> 
> The best part is that it is free. Oracle updates it regularly and I find it 
> much easier to setup and maintain than Fusion or Parallels. I especially like 
> the way it handles networking. I often have to move a vm from one machine to 
> another in different networks. Mac to Mac, Windows to Windows,, Windows to 
> Mac. Redoing the network setup each time I found to be pretty easy.  
> 
> All my VMs run various flavors of Windows. I have not tried creating a VM 
> running Mac OS on either a mac or a windows machine. A quick google search 
> hints that it may a bit more involved than creating a Windows VM.
> 
> Given that it is free, wouldn’t hurt to give it a try before jumping into 
> Fusion or Parallels. I do not think you will be disappointed…
> 
> https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Sep 24, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Ortwin Zillgen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> So, is Fusion preferred over Parallels for Mac OS virtualization?
>> 
>> I prefer Parallels over Fusion, most of the time.
>> 4D does just fine in Parallels and Windows 10.
>> 
>> Virtualising SnowLeopard to run v2004 and older does work better in Fusion.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards
>> O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
>> -
>>    
>>  
>> member of developer-network 
>> 
>> **
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[John Baughman]

I don’t think anyone on the forum has ever mentioned Oracle’a VirtualBox. 
Several years ago I abandoned Parallels for Fusion finding it much less prone 
to compatibility issues and unexplained slow downs. I used Fusion for a while 
and one day received a demo VM for a SQL/Web based Facilities Management 
application. The VM used VirtualBox and after playing with it for a while 
really liked it and made the switch for all my VM needs.

The best part is that it is free. Oracle updates it regularly and I find it 
much easier to setup and maintain than Fusion or Parallels. I especially like 
the way it handles networking. I often have to move a vm from one machine to 
another in different networks. Mac to Mac, Windows to Windows,, Windows to Mac. 
Redoing the network setup each time I found to be pretty easy.  

All my VMs run various flavors of Windows. I have not tried creating a VM 
running Mac OS on either a mac or a windows machine. A quick google search 
hints that it may a bit more involved than creating a Windows VM.

Given that it is free, wouldn’t hurt to give it a try before jumping into 
Fusion or Parallels. I do not think you will be disappointed…

https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads

John




> On Sep 24, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Ortwin Zillgen  wrote:
> 
>> So, is Fusion preferred over Parallels for Mac OS virtualization?
> 
> I prefer Parallels over Fusion, most of the time.
> 4D does just fine in Parallels and Windows 10.
> 
> Virtualising SnowLeopard to run v2004 and older does work better in Fusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
> -
>    
>  
> member of developer-network 
> 
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Ortwin Zillgen]

> So, is Fusion preferred over Parallels for Mac OS virtualization?

I prefer Parallels over Fusion, most of the time.
4D does just fine in Parallels and Windows 10.

Virtualising SnowLeopard to run v2004 and older does work better in Fusion.



Regards
O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
-
   
 
member of developer-network 

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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Robert ListMail]

So, is Fusion preferred over Parallels for Mac OS virtualization?

Thanks,

Robert

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Guy Algot  wrote:
> 
> Fusion supports 10.7 and up. 

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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Guy Algot]

Fusion supports 10.7 and up. I hated using 10.9 and upgraded to 10.10 after 
using it for only a day. I still have one machine running 10.6.8 that I used 
for an old 2004 installation.

https://pubs.vmware.com/fusion-8/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.vmware.fusion.using.doc%2FGUID-474FC78E-4E77-42B7-A1C6-12C2F378C5B9.html

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 5:23 PM, Tim Nevels  wrote:
> 
> On Sep 21, 2016, at 6:06 PM, Douglas von Roeder wrote:
> 
>> Parallels allows us to run OS X but there was a licensing issue with one
>> version of OS X - not sure which version (10.x.x) or if it was OS X vs OS X
>> Server.
>> 
>> Did you see anything about that in your research?
> 
> Hi Doug,
> 
> Well I remember there was an issue with 10.6 and you would get a message from 
> Parallels and not allow it. I installed 10.6 Server, I have the DVD, so I 
> didn’t have any problem. 
> 
> I did a quick search and found this in Parallels KB:  
> http://kb.parallels.com/en/112323  So it was a know issue with 10.6. 
> 
> This link  http://kb.parallels.com/en/118806  talks about 10.9 specifically 
> and makes no mention of it not being allowed or not working. 
> 
> So I think it is cool. Parallels is allowing it. If there was a problem I’m 
> sure Parallels would have put in a software block to not allow it like they 
> did with 10.6.


Later,
Guy

--
Guy Algot, Solutions Specialist
Edmonton, Alberta
(780) 974-8538

hardware, installation, training, support, programming, internet
specializing in 4th Dimension
=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming."
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Ed Glassgow]

Agreed!

On 9/21/16, 5:21 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Douglas von Roeder" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of dvonroe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ed:

Thanks for the info on that. Nice that Apple has changed the licensing
terms and dropped the price of OS X Server, to boot (pardon the pun).



--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:

> Apple used to only allow virtualization with the server version of OS X.
> The last version that had that restriction was 10.6.  With 10.7 and up you
> can legally run them in a virtual machine.  I’m not sure about Parallels,
> but VMware Fusion supports 10.7 and up, with the standard installer.  Just
> for fun, I just created a 10.7 (Lion) virtual machine.
>
> On 9/21/16, 5:04 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Douglas von Roeder" <
> 4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of dvonroe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Tim:
>
> Parallels allows us to run OS X but there was a licensing issue with
> one
> version of OS X - not sure which version (10.x.x) or if it was OS X vs
> OS X
> Server.
>
> Did you see anything about that in your research?
>
>
> --
> Douglas von Roeder
> 949-336-2902
>
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Tim Nevels  wrote:
>
> > On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:44 PM, Chuck Miller wrote:
> >
> > > What I did to solve this problem is to but VM ware (You can use
> > parallels) and install 10.6.8 server. Cost was about 20 bucks). I
> believe
> > newer versions of OS can be virtualized without using server but do
> not
> > know how.
> > >
> > > I am running 10.11.6 on my laptop and VM works great
> >
> > Hi Chuck,
> >
> > I’m already doing that with Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 running under
> Parallels
> > so I can still open the rare 4D 2004 databases. And you are right,
> it works
> > just great.
> >
> > I had not considered doing this with 10.9. Quick Google search makes
> it
> > appear this can be done very easily and without the need for 10.9
> Server.
> > This could be a good solution. Humm…
> >
> > http://kb.parallels.com/en/118806
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > 
> > Tim Nevels
> > Innovative Solutions
> > 785-749-3444
> > timnev...@mac.com
> > 
> >
> > 
> **
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Tim Nevels]

On Sep 21, 2016, at 6:06 PM, Douglas von Roeder wrote:

> Parallels allows us to run OS X but there was a licensing issue with one
> version of OS X - not sure which version (10.x.x) or if it was OS X vs OS X
> Server.
> 
> Did you see anything about that in your research?

Hi Doug,

Well I remember there was an issue with 10.6 and you would get a message from 
Parallels and not allow it. I installed 10.6 Server, I have the DVD, so I 
didn’t have any problem. 

I did a quick search and found this in Parallels KB:  
http://kb.parallels.com/en/112323  So it was a know issue with 10.6. 

This link  http://kb.parallels.com/en/118806  talks about 10.9 specifically and 
makes no mention of it not being allowed or not working. 

So I think it is cool. Parallels is allowing it. If there was a problem I’m 
sure Parallels would have put in a software block to not allow it like they did 
with 10.6.

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Douglas von Roeder]

Ed:

Thanks for the info on that. Nice that Apple has changed the licensing
terms and dropped the price of OS X Server, to boot (pardon the pun).



--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:

> Apple used to only allow virtualization with the server version of OS X.
> The last version that had that restriction was 10.6.  With 10.7 and up you
> can legally run them in a virtual machine.  I’m not sure about Parallels,
> but VMware Fusion supports 10.7 and up, with the standard installer.  Just
> for fun, I just created a 10.7 (Lion) virtual machine.
>
> On 9/21/16, 5:04 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Douglas von Roeder" <
> 4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of dvonroe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Tim:
>
> Parallels allows us to run OS X but there was a licensing issue with
> one
> version of OS X - not sure which version (10.x.x) or if it was OS X vs
> OS X
> Server.
>
> Did you see anything about that in your research?
>
>
> --
> Douglas von Roeder
> 949-336-2902
>
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Tim Nevels  wrote:
>
> > On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:44 PM, Chuck Miller wrote:
> >
> > > What I did to solve this problem is to but VM ware (You can use
> > parallels) and install 10.6.8 server. Cost was about 20 bucks). I
> believe
> > newer versions of OS can be virtualized without using server but do
> not
> > know how.
> > >
> > > I am running 10.11.6 on my laptop and VM works great
> >
> > Hi Chuck,
> >
> > I’m already doing that with Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 running under
> Parallels
> > so I can still open the rare 4D 2004 databases. And you are right,
> it works
> > just great.
> >
> > I had not considered doing this with 10.9. Quick Google search makes
> it
> > appear this can be done very easily and without the need for 10.9
> Server.
> > This could be a good solution. Humm…
> >
> > http://kb.parallels.com/en/118806
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > 
> > Tim Nevels
> > Innovative Solutions
> > 785-749-3444
> > timnev...@mac.com
> > 
> >
> > 
> **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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> >
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Ed Glassgow]

Apple used to only allow virtualization with the server version of OS X.  The 
last version that had that restriction was 10.6.  With 10.7 and up you can 
legally run them in a virtual machine.  I’m not sure about Parallels, but 
VMware Fusion supports 10.7 and up, with the standard installer.  Just for fun, 
I just created a 10.7 (Lion) virtual machine.

On 9/21/16, 5:04 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Douglas von Roeder" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of dvonroe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tim:

Parallels allows us to run OS X but there was a licensing issue with one
version of OS X - not sure which version (10.x.x) or if it was OS X vs OS X
Server.

Did you see anything about that in your research?


--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Tim Nevels  wrote:

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:44 PM, Chuck Miller wrote:
>
> > What I did to solve this problem is to but VM ware (You can use
> parallels) and install 10.6.8 server. Cost was about 20 bucks). I believe
> newer versions of OS can be virtualized without using server but do not
> know how.
> >
> > I am running 10.11.6 on my laptop and VM works great
>
> Hi Chuck,
>
> I’m already doing that with Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 running under Parallels
> so I can still open the rare 4D 2004 databases. And you are right, it 
works
> just great.
>
> I had not considered doing this with 10.9. Quick Google search makes it
> appear this can be done very easily and without the need for 10.9 Server.
> This could be a good solution. Humm…
>
> http://kb.parallels.com/en/118806
>
> Tim
>
> 
> Tim Nevels
> Innovative Solutions
> 785-749-3444
> timnev...@mac.com
> 
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Douglas von Roeder]

Tim:

Parallels allows us to run OS X but there was a licensing issue with one
version of OS X - not sure which version (10.x.x) or if it was OS X vs OS X
Server.

Did you see anything about that in your research?


--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Tim Nevels  wrote:

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:44 PM, Chuck Miller wrote:
>
> > What I did to solve this problem is to but VM ware (You can use
> parallels) and install 10.6.8 server. Cost was about 20 bucks). I believe
> newer versions of OS can be virtualized without using server but do not
> know how.
> >
> > I am running 10.11.6 on my laptop and VM works great
>
> Hi Chuck,
>
> I’m already doing that with Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 running under Parallels
> so I can still open the rare 4D 2004 databases. And you are right, it works
> just great.
>
> I had not considered doing this with 10.9. Quick Google search makes it
> appear this can be done very easily and without the need for 10.9 Server.
> This could be a good solution. Humm…
>
> http://kb.parallels.com/en/118806
>
> Tim
>
> 
> Tim Nevels
> Innovative Solutions
> 785-749-3444
> timnev...@mac.com
> 
>
> **
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Tim Nevels]

On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:44 PM, Chuck Miller wrote:

> What I did to solve this problem is to but VM ware (You can use parallels) 
> and install 10.6.8 server. Cost was about 20 bucks). I believe newer versions 
> of OS can be virtualized without using server but do not know how.
> 
> I am running 10.11.6 on my laptop and VM works great

Hi Chuck,

I’m already doing that with Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 running under Parallels so I 
can still open the rare 4D 2004 databases. And you are right, it works just 
great. 

I had not considered doing this with 10.9. Quick Google search makes it appear 
this can be done very easily and without the need for 10.9 Server. This could 
be a good solution. Humm… 

http://kb.parallels.com/en/118806

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Tim Nevels]

On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:44 PM, Chip Scheide wrote:

> don't feel bad...
> OS 10.6.8 and still have v2003 to support.
> 
> As soon as I can get them to v12 (in testing now) off to 10.9

But I do feel bad and I’m missing out on some cool macOS features. Like taking 
calls for my iPhone on my Mac. I would really like to be able to do that. But 
you can’t with 10.9. 

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Chuck Miller]

What I did to solve this problem is to but VM ware (You can use parallels) and 
install 10.6.8 server. Cost was about 20 bucks). I believe newer versions of OS 
can be virtualized without using server but do not know how.

I am running 10.11.6 on my laptop and VM works great

Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  



> On Sep 21, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Tim Nevels  wrote:
> 
> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Douglas von Roeder wrote:
> 
>> I have a customer who wants to (re)start using their 4D app on the Mac.
>> After reading some of the comments here, we've decided to *not* release on
>> V13 and are using this as the opportunity to do the upgrade to V15.x/V16.
>> 
>> The primary reason for this decision is that I read multiple reports of 4D
>> V13.5 crashing on 10.11 when quitting or when switching applications. I was
>> very relieved that my client agreed with me that it's not good to release a
>> version of software when we know it will crash under routine use.
> 
> I’m still running Mavericks 10.9.5 on my development machine. Why? Because I 
> have one active client still running v12, and one running v13. I also have 
> some on v14 and v15. macOS 10.9 works great with all these version of 4D. No 
> random crashing. 
> 
> I would love to upgrade to a newer macOS version but I don’t want to put up 
> with “issues” while still developing on v12 and v13. 
> 
> I believe I read somewhere that v16 will required macOS 10.10 as a minimum. 
> Tim Penner, can you confirm that? So I will have to upgrade before I can use 
> that.
> 
> I’m in the process of upgrading the v13 client to v15 so that issue will 
> resolve itself. But the v12 client is a problem. Gonna have to figure out a 
> way to get them to upgrade. 
> 
> I hate being so far behind on macOS versions, but I choose a sable work 
> environment over the new macOS versions. 
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
> Tim Nevels
> Innovative Solutions
> 785-749-3444
> timnev...@mac.com
> 
> 
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Chip Scheide]

don't feel bad...
OS 10.6.8 and still have v2003 to support.

As soon as I can get them to v12 (in testing now) off to 10.9
:)

On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 14:17:23 -0500, Tim Nevels wrote:
> 
> I hate being so far behind on macOS versions, but I choose a sable 
> work environment over the new macOS versions. 
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Tim Nevels]

On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Douglas von Roeder wrote:

> I have a customer who wants to (re)start using their 4D app on the Mac.
> After reading some of the comments here, we've decided to *not* release on
> V13 and are using this as the opportunity to do the upgrade to V15.x/V16.
> 
> The primary reason for this decision is that I read multiple reports of 4D
> V13.5 crashing on 10.11 when quitting or when switching applications. I was
> very relieved that my client agreed with me that it's not good to release a
> version of software when we know it will crash under routine use.

I’m still running Mavericks 10.9.5 on my development machine. Why? Because I 
have one active client still running v12, and one running v13. I also have some 
on v14 and v15. macOS 10.9 works great with all these version of 4D. No random 
crashing. 

I would love to upgrade to a newer macOS version but I don’t want to put up 
with “issues” while still developing on v12 and v13. 

I believe I read somewhere that v16 will required macOS 10.10 as a minimum. Tim 
Penner, can you confirm that? So I will have to upgrade before I can use that.

I’m in the process of upgrading the v13 client to v15 so that issue will 
resolve itself. But the v12 client is a problem. Gonna have to figure out a way 
to get them to upgrade. 

I hate being so far behind on macOS versions, but I choose a sable work 
environment over the new macOS versions. 

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Jim Labos - infobase]

Thanks to all that replied. I will recommend to not use Sierra.

Jim Labos - infobase



-
Jim Labos - infobase
--
View this message in context: 
http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/v13-on-Sierra-tp5747493p5747498.html
Sent from the 4D Tech mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Bill Weale]

Yes, that was when “Close All Windows” was seen as “Close ALL Windows.”

8-|

Bill

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Keith Culotta  wrote:
> 
> Many years ago the Mac version of 4D had a bug that caused it to crash when 
> the open windows were closed using option-key/closebox-click.  I think of 
> that each time I use the technique.
> 
> Keith - CDI
> 
>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Douglas von Roeder  wrote:
>> 
>> Customers forget a version that was delivered late. Customers do *not*
>> forget a version that has bugs.
>> 

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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Keith Culotta]

Many years ago the Mac version of 4D had a bug that caused it to crash when the 
open windows were closed using option-key/closebox-click.  I think of that each 
time I use the technique.

Keith - CDI

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Douglas von Roeder  wrote:
> 
> Customers forget a version that was delivered late. Customers do *not*
> forget a version that has bugs.
> 

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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Ed Glassgow]

Hey all,

I am running my engineering company on Version 13.6 (Windows server and mostly 
Windows clients, but with a couple of Mac clients, including myself).  
Unfortunately, 13.6 running on MacOS 12 Sierra is unpredictably unstable.  It 
is frustrating because it is almost useable, but will occasionally just quit.  
I can relaunch and do exactly the same thing that I was previously doing and it 
works just fine.  I have not been able to come up with any way to predict when 
it will go away, it just does.  Sucks!

Ed Glassgow
glass...@pcisys.net


On 9/21/16, 12:13 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Douglas von Roeder" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of dvonroe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jim:

I have a customer who wants to (re)start using their 4D app on the Mac.
After reading some of the comments here, we've decided to *not* release on
V13 and are using this as the opportunity to do the upgrade to V15.x/V16.

The primary reason for this decision is that I read multiple reports of 4D
V13.5 crashing on 10.11 when quitting or when switching applications. I was
very relieved that my client agreed with me that it's not good to release a
version of software when we know it will crash under routine use.

Customers forget a version that was delivered late. Customers do *not*
forget a version that has bugs.



--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Jim Labos - infobase 
wrote:

> I have a customer that is asking if v13 will work on Sierra.
>
> I admit I didn't look too hard yet but anyone know if it's at least OK (I
> have v13 on El Capitan and the only problem is in desgn mode it will quit
> on
> me randomly but seldom).
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim Labos - infobase
>
>
>
> -
> Jim Labos - infobase
> --
> View this message in context: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.
> com/v13-on-Sierra-tp5747493.html
> Sent from the 4D Tech mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> **
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Re: v13 on Sierra?

[Douglas von Roeder]

Jim:

I have a customer who wants to (re)start using their 4D app on the Mac.
After reading some of the comments here, we've decided to *not* release on
V13 and are using this as the opportunity to do the upgrade to V15.x/V16.

The primary reason for this decision is that I read multiple reports of 4D
V13.5 crashing on 10.11 when quitting or when switching applications. I was
very relieved that my client agreed with me that it's not good to release a
version of software when we know it will crash under routine use.

Customers forget a version that was delivered late. Customers do *not*
forget a version that has bugs.



--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Jim Labos - infobase 
wrote:

> I have a customer that is asking if v13 will work on Sierra.
>
> I admit I didn't look too hard yet but anyone know if it's at least OK (I
> have v13 on El Capitan and the only problem is in desgn mode it will quit
> on
> me randomly but seldom).
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim Labos - infobase
>
>
>
> -
> Jim Labos - infobase
> --
> View this message in context: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.
> com/v13-on-Sierra-tp5747493.html
> Sent from the 4D Tech mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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