Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-14 Thread sl
On Feb 14, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Rui Carmo wrote: > On 14 Feb 2018, at 00:31, s...@9front.org wrote: > >> 1.) is the wrong approach. Just build inside Plan 9. > > You missed the rest of the thread. I read the entire thread but I didn’t see this point specifically addressed.

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-14 Thread Erik Quanstrom
orms over the years!! Thanks. -Ben From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net <9fans-bounces@9fans.net> on behalf of Giacomo Tesio <giacomo@tesio.it> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:26 AM To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Subject: Re: [9fans] There is no fork   To my know

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-14 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
On Wed, Feb 14, 2018, at 11:32 AM, hiro wrote: > git has a bad user interface, it is not made for casual users. > I've been using it casually for a couple of weeks, it's been bearable. Perhaps that's because one of the repos only has occasional commits from one other person, and the other is

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-14 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Giacomo Tesio wrote: > 2018-02-12 14:05 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Giacomo Tesio wrote: > >> 2018-02-12 2:10 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : > >>> linux-style package managers and

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-14 Thread hiro
git has a bad user interface, it is not made for casual users.

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-14 Thread Lucio De Re
On 2/14/18, Steve Simon wrote: > > re git frowned upon. > > i think git is frowned upon because porting it would be a massive effort due > to its many dependencies, whist python has been ported and mercurial just > works. > It's a shame, cause GIT itself is mostly C, no doubt

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-14 Thread Steve Simon
re git frowned upon. i think git is frowned upon because porting it would be a massive effort due to its many dependencies, whist python has been ported and mercurial just works. -Steve > On 13 Feb 2018, at 23:37, Rui Carmo wrote: > > > >>> On 13 Feb 2018, at

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Rui Carmo
> On 14 Feb 2018, at 00:31, s...@9front.org wrote: > > 1.) is the wrong approach. Just build inside Plan 9. You missed the rest of the thread. R.

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread sl
>> Rui, please present any issues you had with the step-by-step >> introductions in the fqa to us on the 9front mailinglist in a >> designated thread. > > The main issue for me is putting together a build environment on top > of KVM or Linux, which isn’t covered in the FQA. > > I can’t build

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Rui Carmo
> On 13 Feb 2018, at 19:10, Kurt H Maier > wrote: > >> For using QEMU’s virtualization features inside Hyper-V. > > If Hyper-V is still capable of running Xen guests, you may want to look > at the code on sources for a start in that direction. That

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread hiro
> It’s just that the world has moved on this has no relevance, our kvm based setups still work, regardless of microsoft's virtualized revolutions.

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 06:21:42PM +, Rui Carmo wrote: > > Yes. And to deliver an image for the Pi, built on Intel systems. Always good to specify the deliverables. > I struggle to understand how version control is not more actively used. It's not particularly necessary when you have

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Bakul Shah
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 18:16:02 + Steve Simon wrote: Steve Simon writes: > > > > I can't build 9front on a Pi (well, not in productive amounts of time) > > depends what you mean by productive. my pi3 will build a kernel in about 30 > secs (i am not by it so this is from

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Rui Carmo
> On 13 Feb 2018, at 18:12, Kurt H Maier wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 05:01:35PM +, Rui Carmo wrote: >> >> A full build environment (the way I’m used to having it) comprises the >> end-to-end automation for creating a full build, > > A full build of what? It's

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Steve Simon
> I can’t build 9front on a Pi (well, not in productive amounts of time) depends what you mean by productive. my pi3 will build a kernel in about 30 secs (i am not by it so this is from memory). my dual 1.6 atom at home takes about 14 secs for comparison. userspace would take much longer but

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 05:01:35PM +, Rui Carmo wrote: > > A full build environment (the way I’m used to having it) comprises the > end-to-end automation for creating a full build, A full build of what? It's one command to rebuild the whole OS. Is that the goal? > triggered by an

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Rui Carmo
> On 13 Feb 2018, at 16:25, Kurt H Maier wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 03:10:34PM +, Rui Carmo wrote: >> >> The main issue for me is putting together a build environment on top of KVM >> or Linux, which isn’t covered in the FQA. >> > > What is a "build

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 03:10:34PM +, Rui Carmo wrote: > > The main issue for me is putting together a build environment on top of KVM > or Linux, which isn’t covered in the FQA. > What is a "build environment"? The FQA contains an entire chapter (3.3.1) on installing to qemu on linux.

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Lucio De Re
I have a lot of admiration for cinap, he's "deep". But he is also the best qualified person to estimate whether improvements in 9front are portable back to legacy and I'm sure that is, sadly, not high on his agenda. Conservatively, I'd like legacy to be the entry system to Plan 9 and categorise

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Lucio De Re
9front is not something I'm familiar with, but Plan 9 legacy is trivial to install (I still use VMware ESXi as the host) and you can rebuild the entire system with a handful of commands once you've got that far. Naturally, you may prefer a different approach, but do you need that to be your first

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Rui Carmo
> On 13 Feb 2018, at 11:05, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Rui, please present any issues you had with the step-by-step > introductions in the fqa to us on the 9front mailinglist in a > designated thread. The main issue for me is putting together a build environment on top of KVM or

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread hiro
Does our fshalt -r work for rebooting without pressing reset? SSH has been completely rewritten by cinap, it's working much better than any former port, aiju also integrated sftp support. After this cinap fixed vt. Together these changes allow certain linux management tasks to be more comfortable

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread sl
> On 2/13/18, Rui Carmo wrote: > > I get the current website and some of the in-jokes, but a step-by-step guide > > for installing, building and contributing would be great ... > > It's so easy to fall into the trap of elitism, while bemoaning the > shortage of development

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 1:39 PM, Lucio De Re wrote: > On 2/12/18, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > > [ a neat rant I agree almost to the pixel with... ] Thanks! > The message, of course, is that one should not need hundreds of > thousands of files deployed on a workstation and

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Lucio De Re
On 2/13/18, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > Lucio, what commit are you missing in 9front that you would like to see > merged? > Wrong person, Hiro :-) I am a strict 9legacy user, down to only a few patches past a very old Plan 9 release, just enough modernity to run Go plus a few of my own tiny

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread hiro
We found a great little niche for plan9 hidden between other web browsers^W^Woperating systems. Nowadays it's too easy to run multiple OS, virtually and natively. Cpu virtualization features helped, and there's so much cheap but totally capable hardware on ebay, and it fits in your backpack. There

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread hiro
Lucio, what commit are you missing in 9front that you would like to see merged?

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread hiro
Rui, please present any issues you had with the step-by-step introductions in the fqa to us on the 9front mailinglist in a designated thread.

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Lucio De Re
On 2/13/18, Rui Carmo wrote: > I get the current website and some of the in-jokes, but a step-by-step guide > for installing, building and contributing would be great ... It's so easy to fall into the trap of elitism, while bemoaning the shortage of development hands needed

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Rui Carmo
> On 13 Feb 2018, at 03:06, Lucio De Re wrote: > Touche'. I'd certainly like to contribute, but herding the Plan 9 cats > is beyond any managerial skills I may have. I think management wouldn’t be the issue. From the outside looking in, what transpires the most is that

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Lucio De Re
On 2/13/18, s...@9front.org wrote: >> >> That said, I deem it unfortunate that there isn't a drive to >> consolidate the various flavours of Plan 9 into a single offering, or >> at least identify and discuss the differences and provide for the >> choices from a single source (pun

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread sl
> On 2/10/18, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> Just curious as to the state of the union. Is 9front pretty much the de >> facto "official" Plan 9 these days, or does anyone still use or maintain any >> of the following: > > I'm with David (legacy), nearly all the

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Benjamin Huntsman
This has been a fascinating thread. I was kind of surprised that no one came out and said "yes, 9front all the way", nor did anyone say they had 9atom working. Ideally, I'd like to have 9atom on VMware, but since it isn't maintained anymore either, 9front looks like the way to go. 9legacy

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Giacomo Tesio
2018-02-12 17:13 GMT+01:00 : > 2018-02-12 14:05 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : >> That's the marketing blurb, I've heard it a thousand times before. [...] >> So, for the last 10-12 years, maybe more, mountains of software have been >> produced on the

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Steve Simon
rob’s sam editor for X11 circa 1993 was a revelation for me. beautifully written and trivial to port to a dozen different platforms. a salutatory lesson to all. autotools is horrid, though, fgb’s config script can often get foreign stuff to build. if you want to import code rather than just

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread tlaronde
2018-02-12 14:05 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Giacomo Tesio wrote: >> 2018-02-12 2:10 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : >>> linux-style package managers and bsd-style port trees facilitate and enable >>> coupling. >>

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Chris McGee
Thanks everyone. This thread has been a fascinating read for me. Chris

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Giacomo Tesio
2018-02-12 14:05 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Giacomo Tesio wrote: >> 2018-02-12 2:10 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : >>> linux-style package managers and bsd-style port trees facilitate and enable >>> coupling. >>

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Lucio De Re
On 2/12/18, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > [ a neat rant I agree almost to the pixel with... ] I (mostly) manage a (very small) team of younger programmers who only really know Linux, and then the Debian or Ubuntu distros, almost exclusively. My sentiments and Ethan's seem

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Giacomo Tesio wrote: > 2018-02-12 2:10 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : >> linux-style package managers and bsd-style port trees facilitate and enable >> coupling. > > What a package manager really facilitate is version management. > That is

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-12 Thread Giacomo Tesio
2018-02-12 2:10 GMT+01:00 Ethan Grammatikidis : > linux-style package managers and bsd-style port trees facilitate and > enable coupling. > > What a package manager really facilitate is version management. That is when you want to use/update a software at version X that

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-11 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 12:20 AM, Giacomo Tesio wrote: > While it's in no way a Unix, many won't even consider it a Plan 9 > system. Still for anyone interested: http://jehanne.io on principle, i very much like jehanne's decoupling policy. it was the growth of excessive coupling between

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-11 Thread Benjamin Huntsman
__ From: 9fans-boun...@9fans.net <9fans-boun...@9fans.net> on behalf of Giacomo Tesio <giac...@tesio.it> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:20 PM To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Subject: Re: [9fans] There is no fork 2018-02-12 0:48 GMT+01:00 Benjamin Huntsman <bhunts...@mail

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-11 Thread Giacomo Tesio
2018-02-12 0:48 GMT+01:00 Benjamin Huntsman : > Or, if one wants NIX but to stay a little closer to the original > distribution, are there options, or is Harvey the only way? Out of curiosity, what's your use case for the NIX kernel? @Lyndon:

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-11 Thread Benjamin Huntsman
February 11, 2018 4:26 AM To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Subject: Re: [9fans] There is no fork To my knowledge this is the set of active projects based on Plan 9: 9atom and 9front are both actively maintained. Both stick strongly to the original Plan 9 from Bell Labs design. AFAIK, 9front i

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-11 Thread Lyndon Nerenberg
Forsyth's Plan-9k had some development in mid 2017. Where did that go? I remember there were some changes there I was quite interested in, but I lost the reference to the repo source before I had a chance to do anything with the updates.

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-11 Thread Rui Carmo
Jehanne is something I’ve been keeping track of, in hopes that rio gets nicer defaults. You should write more about it. :) I’ve been toying with the notion of hacking a nicer (for me) visual theme, but lack of time prevailed. But I will move my Pi to 9front as soon as possible... R. > On 11

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-11 Thread Giacomo Tesio
To my knowledge this is the set of active projects based on Plan 9: 9atom and 9front are both actively maintained. Both stick strongly to the original Plan 9 from Bell Labs design. AFAIK, 9front introduce more innovations, both in kernel and in user space, but what make it unique is the #cat-v

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-10 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
So we're all putting it here? Okay then. I agree with pretty-much everything hiro said this time. Regarding differences between forks, what springs to my mind is the fixes 9front needed to host cat-v.org. The site was switched to a 9front server at the time of Uriel's death, news of which

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-10 Thread as
Ive been using 9front as a primary system ever since the one true distribution neutered bintime and replaced it with the nsec system call. Its nice that the 9front maintainers voulenteer to keep plan9's simplicity alive (9atom is great too and has myriad device drivers written for modern hardware

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-10 Thread hiro
i forgot to mention: if you are confused why valuable contributions to another fork are not included in 9front, and you don't know why, please come and talk to us about it. either we didn't see it or there's a architectural decisions or goals that don't align with 9front. in general if you can

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-10 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
eeh... I cut out a bunch of stuff from my last mail because I didn't want to derail the thread. Anyone want a new thread on discussing the differences, or shall we just bung it all here?

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-10 Thread hiro
The reason 9front exists is because it was too difficult to get patches applied to mainline plan9. Like geoff for mainline, 9front has cinap as gatekeeper to maintain quality and when possible stability. Also cinap is a programming monster and keeps on improving 9front in big steps, so there isn't

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-10 Thread Ethan Grammatikidis
On Sat, Feb 10, 2018, at 4:24 AM, Lucio De Re wrote: > > That said, I deem it unfortunate that there isn't a drive to > consolidate the various flavours of Plan 9 into a single offering, or > at least identify and discuss the differences and provide for the > choices from a single source (pun

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-09 Thread Jens Staal
There is also one additional fork that has diverged quite significantly from its Plan9 roots: Harvey OS. One thing that might be interesting to back port from Harvey is the modernized APE. Den 10 feb. 2018 03:51 skrev "Benjamin Huntsman" < bhunts...@mail2.cu-portland.edu>: > Just curious as to

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-09 Thread Lucio De Re
On 2/10/18, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Just curious as to the state of the union. Is 9front pretty much the de > facto "official" Plan 9 these days, or does anyone still use or maintain any > of the following: I'm with David (legacy), nearly all the way. That