Re: 'I believe the term comes from masters of the guilds, before the idea of
visual artist became
prominent.'
No it's a 19th century creation. Brought about by academic painters who
felt they had 'finally' discovered the secret of painting (ie by using a
'photographic' style - See eg
The original notion of Master in the field of visual
arts did indeed stem from the guilds, particularly the
Guild of St. Luke. These operated much like trade
unions today where one had to serve an apprenticeship,
etc., and to acquire knowledge, performance skill, and
eventual recognition as a
We are talking about the phrase' Old Masters'. A quite different question.
Can you imagine anyone talking about 'Old Masters' in the eighteenth century
or any time before?
DA
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:44 PM, William Conger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
The original notion of Master in the field
Cheerskep
Re: ' Ordinary, healthy folk would say the structure in Paris we
call 'The Eiffel Tower' is real, while Santa Claus's house and factory at
the
North Pole are not real.'
I know I am just commenting on one bit of your post - and am often told this
is one of my besetting sins - but this
Chris, I think Cheerskep made the point very eloquently that it is simply
unreasonable to expect that a person should have heard every form (every
piece?) of jazz in existence before he can say whether he likes it or not.
On that logic in fact who could really say they *liked* jazz? Perhaps there
In a message dated 4/19/08 12:41:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The
problem is that you forget the components of those notions come from the
info
of different 'outside' existing entities sensed and transformed into
ABSTRACTION by us.
Boris, why would you think I forget such things?
Because you have problem with word 'meaning' and I don't. Everything
exists, because it has some meaning for it to exist.
Boris Shoshensky
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 4/19/08 12:41:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The
problem is that you forget the components of those
Re: 'hough I abjure the layman and his kitchen-table English, I can't do it
without a final word in his defense. Granted, he uses the misleading word
'real'
but I'd claim his usage is more approvable than Derek's. He would say the
metallic structure in Paris we call the 'Eiffel Tower' is real,
Alright, Cheerskep --- score a bunch of points and declare yourself the
winner.
But first, let's consider all the genres which you mentioned;
*prize fights
*german lieder
*dog shows
*golf matches
*flower shows
*wrestling matches
*Kabuki
It's my assertion that 'jazz' is a much broader category
In a message dated 4/18/08 10:31:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
*prize fights
*german lieder
*dog shows
*golf matches
*flower shows
*wrestling matches
*Kabuki
It's my assertion that 'jazz' is a much broader category than any of them.
Aw, shoot you left off opera, which was on
: Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:17:47 GMT
I'm not sure who won the match -- but I do have my doubts
about the line judge, Cheerskep, when he writes:
In all walks of life we are justified
One of the ways in which Derek manifests -- either willfully or somewhat
sub-consciously -- his determination to evade grappling with certain direct
questions is to pick one element in a multi-part argument, say, This is
absurd,
and ignore everything else said.
For example, a while back, I was
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:17:30 EDT
One of the ways in which Derek manifests -- either
willfully or somewhat sub-consciously -- his determination
to evade grappling with certain direct questions
Frances to Cheerskep and others...
Your remarks about signing and calling and naming objects from a
notional and nominal stance is mainly understood and appreciated,
but my agreement extends only to the degree that such
subjectivity is held as a special approach to particular issues
turning on
Frances to Chris and Allan and Brian and others...
Your recent remarks seem to imply that all jazz is music, if deemed good by
at least a recognized group of normal individuals like artisans or artists
or aesthetes or aestheticians; and that some such good jazz is at least low
art
my interest is in how the music is organised and develops over
time within ensembles and across different ensembles. I am interested in
these issues for research reasons, but listen to the music in more in mind
than that.
So, Alan you're a musicologist ?
Have you read Richard Taruskin's
all jazz music
inferior. There must be substantial reason underpinning that judgement.
[Without]
adequate criteria we cannot conclude that the music of Johannes Ockeghem is
without doubts vastly superior. Allan takes Derek to task for not
explicating
some works of Mozart to justify considering
On 16/4/08 23:22, Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
my interest is in how the music is organised and develops over
time within ensembles and across different ensembles. I am interested in
these issues for research reasons, but listen to the music in more in mind
than that.
So, Alan
@mh.databack.com
Subject: RE: Music and all that jazz
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:19:46 -0400
Frances to Derek and others...
My knowledge of musical and graphical history is limited,
therefore others more qualified might perhaps correct my
guesses about good artworks that could be graded as low
don't really
hate jazz; you are suffering from a mental disturbance.'
DA
- Original Message -
From: Frances Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: RE: Music and all that jazz
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:47:37 -0400
Frances to Derek and Boris and others
that.
DA
- Original Message -
From: Brian Jenkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: RE: Music and all that jazz -correction
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:58:35 -0400
I find it very repetitive. In fact I suspect one learns
to play jazz partly through learning a series
-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: RE: Music and all that jazz
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:58:26 EDT
Derek Allan writes:
For me, as I say, jazz is an
impoverished musical form. It is to real music as thin
gruel is to a wonderful tasty meal. It is empty,
meretricious, even cynical, music (cynical
: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Cc: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:46:54 GMT
Derek, I know that Yo-Yo Ma is more competent in music
then you are and most of us. This what he writes:
As I work
On 15/4/08 12:58, Brian Jenkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I find it very repetitive. In fact I suspect one learns to
play jazz partly through learning a series of rather
standard routines.
Brian,
I understand what you are saying about teaching and learning jazz but
disagree with you on
On 15/4/08 18:35, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, this was my comment, not Brian's, though Brian
seemed to agree at least in part.
Actually this is your comment,
I find it very repetitive. In fact I suspect one
learns to play jazz partly through learning a series of
- Original Message -
From: Allan Sutherland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz -correction
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:36:18 +0900
On 15/4/08 12:58, Brian Jenkins
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I find it very repetitive
Apologies,
I looked at my own email again, and can see how it is possible to read my
comments as following upon this. I intended to comment of Brian's mail
section by section, but ended by commenting on his email and cutting all of
his email out. I should have then cut out the quote from you
Frances to Derek and others...
My insistence on the need for some relevant communal group to make tentative
determinations about what might be good and best in regard to the issue at
hand is based on the pragmatist assumption that the determinations made by a
sole individual person alone or a
So if I admire a novel, piece of music, or painting and
think it is great art and all my 'buddies' don't, I am wrong
- if not mentally disturbed??
DA
- Original Message -
From: Frances Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: [???] RE: Music and all that jazz
Yes. I have read your comment again. I confess I really do
not know what your point is. Can you state it succinctly?
DA
- Original Message -
From: Allan Sutherland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz
In a message dated 4/15/08 3:30:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't know Lucia, though I just Googled here.
I see what you mean but I have a problem: Would someone who
said with equal vehemence that they liked jazz be a Lucia
too?
Someone who said it with that use of cultural
Frances to Derek...
The group or groups making determinations must be relevant to the issue of
persons or peoples at hand. The casual buddies of a learned aesthete for
example do not make a good group of relevant experts. The single group as
well as the sole person can of course also be wrong.
Subject: [???] RE: [???] RE: Music and all that jazz
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:11:03 -0400
Frances to Derek...
The group or groups making determinations must be relevant
to the issue of persons or peoples at hand. The casual
buddies of a learned aesthete for example do not make a
good group
Looks like I'm the only one here who likes Jazz --- but doesn't care so much
for improvisation.
I.e. -- I think the effects that grab me have been worked out way
ahead-of-time first by the song writer -- and then by the arranger -- and
finally by the musicians who practice together until
have committed a capital
crime or something!
I don't know. Close your eyes and think of England ?
Kate Sullivan
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz
Date: Tue, 15 Apr
Frances to Derek and others...
The pragmatist stance on group theory as applied to social activities, like
religion and art and philosophy and science, goes beyond the mere
conventional agreement of communal members. The determination of what might
be found good furthermore includes the
For Goodness sake! why not leave Derek Alone to his own individual self,
narrow As it may appear?
mando
On Apr 14, 2008, at 6:47 PM, Frances Kelly wrote:
Frances to Derek and Boris and others...
In regard to the eventual yet tentative determination of art, the
overall
term might better be
they live in the US for some
reason. Not sure why. )
DA
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Cc: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: [Spam?]RE: Music and all that jazz
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:18:39 GMT
How do they get to acquire
-Original Message-
From: Allan Sutherland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:36 AM
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz -correction
On 15/4/08 12:58, Brian Jenkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I find it very repetitive. In fact I suspect
PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:34 PM
To: 'aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com'
Subject: RE: Music and all that jazz -correction
I do not recall arguing any point about the obvious variability of the
technical proficiency of all performers of all sorts of music, what I was
most interested
: Music and all that jazz
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:58:35 +0900
Curiously you did not mention who the musicians were who
you listened too? Curiously too you did not say why you
thought these musicians, on the performance occasion, were
capable of typifying in a single instance all the possible
Allan,
I don't think you read my reply very carefully. As I said my
judgements were not based on this group alone. Who has not
heard huge dollops of jazz one way or another at various
points in their life? On the radio, on film, on the telly.
One would need to live in a cave to avoid it.
My
Michael
I confess I'm not well versed in 20/21st century music. I
like lots of Prokoviev and some Stravinsky but I guess they
seem quite ancient now for someone who knows contemporary
music. I have occasionally heard bits of Arvo Pdrt that I
liked but I know very little about his music.
Oddly
detective story and 'Crime and Punishment', or
between Cabanel and Rembrandt. One is art the other is not.
DA
- Original Message -
From: Allan Sutherland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz -correction
Date
detective story and 'Crime and Punishment', or
between Cabanel and Rembrandt. One is art the other is not.
DA
- Original Message -
From: Allan Sutherland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz -correction
Date
detective story and 'Crime and Punishment', or
between Cabanel and Rembrandt. One is art the other is not.
DA
- Original Message -
From: Allan Sutherland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz -correction
Date
Derek,
Sorry, I sent this email prematurely corrected below:
I did read your email carefully, but I think you did not read mine
sufficiently carefully past the first sentences/paragraph. I did not base
all of my reasoning on that single listening of yours from which you
commenced the topic.
I
On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just at the moment I am listening to a CD of the music of
Johannes Ockeghem. It is to jazz as Rembrandt is to some
amateur daubing.
Can you recommend any XXth or XXIst century composers or compositions
that compare to Mozart? I am not
Derek,
I did read your email carefully, but I think you did not read mine
sufficiently carefully past the first sentences/paragraph. I did not base
all of my reasoning on that single listening of yours from which you
commenced the topic.
I was essentially pointing to the heterogeneity of the
Sutherland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:58:35 +0900
Curiously you did not mention who the musicians were who
you listened too? Curiously too you did not say why you
thought these musicians
]
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: RE: Music and all that jazz
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:04:22 -0400
Frances to Derek and others...
If an act and its objects is called music for just cause
by a learned group of experts, then it is likely art by
the mere virtue of being called
Derek Allan writes:
For me, as I say, jazz is an
impoverished musical form. It is to real music as thin gruel
is to a wonderful tasty meal. It is empty, meretricious,
even cynical, music (cynical because it poses as something
complex but appeals to quite simple, basic instincts). It is
the
On 14/4/08 21:55, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Re: and that the discussion is proving fruitless.
What would be fruitful? If I agreed with you?
No, such is a surely banal response.
In matters
such as this there is no question of convincing the other
person. Only the music
Frances to Derek and others...
My knowledge of musical and graphical history is limited, therefore others
more qualified might perhaps correct my guesses about good artworks that
could be graded as low and high in regard to their overall worth and impact.
Since about 1900 it seems that good
Frances to Derek and Boris and others...
In regard to the eventual yet tentative determination of art, the overall
term might better be collective community of normal experts although in
some venues the agreed opinion of any relevant learned group of normal
experts might be appropriate. The
.
-Brian
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 8:56 AM
To: aesthetics-l@mh.databack.com
Subject: Re: Music and all that jazz -correction
Re: 'Jazz is an adventure in music, an exploration of sound
relationships and its variety
by
which you consider all jazz music inferior. Surely, it is essential that
these musicians must do so represent all jazz and lack aesthetic adequacy to
conclude that all jazz is aesthetically worthless. To put the point with
equal brevity.
Toodle-pip,
Allan.
On 12/4/08 16:02, [EMAIL PROTECTED
Frances to Derek and others...
If an act and its objects is called music for just cause by a learned group
of experts, then it is likely art by the mere virtue of being called music,
which would likely even include impoverished musical forms like the songs
found in the genres of jazz and rock and
Subject: [???] Re: Music and all that jazz
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:00:57 GMT
Derek, I command your brevity to show so openly your
limits of musical sensibility.
B.Shoshensky
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I sat through an
evening of jazz last night. Very good jazz , I was told
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