On 8 Apr 2012, at 21:18, aaleshin wrote:
What I suggested with respect to the PDB data validation was adding some
additional information that would allow to independently validate such
parameters as the resolution and data quality (catching of model fabrications
would be a byproduct of
Thank you Phil, for clarification of my point, but it appears as cheating in a
current situation, when an author has to fit a three dimensional statistics
into a one-dimentional table. Moreover, many of journal reviewers may never
worked with the low-resolution data and understand importance of
6:47 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
Thank you Phil, for clarification of my point, but it appears as cheating in a
current situation, when an author has to fit a three dimensional statistics
into a one-dimentional table. Moreover
of aaleshin
[aales...@burnham.org]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 6:47 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
Thank you Phil, for clarification of my point, but it appears as cheating in
a current situation, when an author has to fit a three
On 04/09/12 12:32, Boaz Shaanan wrote:
How about such a footnote to Table 1:
The resolution of data is 3A in the a direction, 3.5A in b direction and 5A in
the c direction
Wouldn't this do the trick?
Usually there's a requirement for a table of statistics, including
completeness and R in
It is a wonderful server indeed, but its default setting cuts the resolution at
3 sigma (if I remember correctly). It is too stringent in my opinion. Also, it
is not clear to me whether to submit all data to the highest resolution point,
or the data that come from the server? But then again,
On Apr 9, 2012, at 11:47 AM, aaleshin wrote:
Thank you Phil, for clarification of my point, but it appears as cheating in
a current situation, when an author has to fit a three dimensional statistics
into a one-dimentional table. Moreover, many of journal reviewers may never
worked with
Hi Alex,
It is not clear to me how to report the resolution of data when it is 3A
in one direction, 3.5A in another and 5A in the third.
can't be easier I guess: just switch from characterizing data sets with one
single number (which is suboptimal, at least, as Phil pointed out earlier)
and
Hi Pavel,
Reporting the table that you suggested would create more red flags for the
reviewers and readers than explaining how to understand the resolution of my
data. We need more studies into this issue (correlation between the resolution
of anisotropic data and model quality). And there
Alex,
I think you are mixing two things here: presenting statistics that
characterizes the data and its interpretation.
Looking at data completeness as a single number tells something but not a
lot, while looking at these metrics per resolution reveals a whole lot more
information (for example,
Or as tensor, see classic:
ANISOTROPIC SCALING OF 3-DIMENSIONAL INTENSITY DATA
Author(s): SHAKKED, Z (SHAKKED, Z)
Source: ACTA CRYSTALLOGRAPHICA SECTION A Volume: 39 Issue: MAY Pages:
278-279 DOI: 10.1107/S0108767383000665 Published: 1983
I guess this or similar is implemented in
On 4/2/2012 6:03 AM, herman.schreu...@sanofi.com wrote:
If James Holton had been involved, the fabrication would not have been
discovered.
Herman
Uhh. Thanks. I think?
Apologies for remaining uncharacteristically quiet. I have been keeping
up with the discussion, but not sure how much
Since I was the person who started a public outcry to do something, I shell
explain myself to my critics. Similarly to all of you, I do not care much about
those few instances of structure fabrication. I might put too much emphases on
them to initiate the discussion, but they are, indeed, only
You never know when a forgotten slip of the mouse when using AutoDep ten
years ago will come back to haunt you.
On the paper James refers to and found the data, added mystery was that the
postdoc who may have slipped disappeared w/o much of trace and the PI died.
Dan was the only survivor. Still
Dear Ron,
Quite so, and who cannot laugh at the Yes Minister perfect hospital ward
operating theatre sketch ( Thankyou James W).
Anyway:-
Let's not get too hung up on one detail of your point 3. Your various points,
including point 3, added several missing elements in this CCp4bb thread.
I doubt many people completely fail to archive data but maintaining data
archives can be a pain so I'm not sure what the useful age of the average
archive is. Do people who archived to tape keep their tapes in a format that
can be read by modern tape drives? Do people who archived data to a
Dear John,
Your points are well taken and they're consistent with policies and practices
in the US as well.
I wonder about the nature of the employer's responsibility though. I sit on
some university committees, and the impression I get is that much of the time,
the employers are
Ron makes an excellent point. Many institutions devote far more energy to
limiting risk than to doing the right thing. This leads administrators to a
frightening, but logical conclusion: The less science we do, the less chance of
our doing something that could invite a penalty on the
As famously observed by the Yes Minister teamthe dream outcome for any
organization:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-5zEb1oS9Afeature=youtube_gdata_player
J
Sent from my iPhone
On 07/04/2012, at 3:16 AM, Patrick Loll pat.l...@drexel.edu wrote:
Ron makes an excellent point. Many
Dear 'aales...@burnham.org',
Re the pixel detector; yes this is an acknowledged raw data archiving
challenge; possible technical solutions include:- summing to make
coarser images ie in angular range, lossless compression (nicely
described on this CCP4bb by James Holton) or preserving a
Dear Colleagues,
Clearly, no system will be able to perfectly preserve every pixel of
every dataset collected at a cost that can be afforded. Resources are
finite and we must set priorities. I would suggest that, in order
of declining priority, we try our best to retain:
1. raw data that
FYI, every NSF grant proposal now must have a data management plan that
describes how all experimental data will be archived and in what formats.
I'm not sure how seriously these plans are monitored, but a plan must be
provided nevertheless. Is anyone NOT archiving their original data in some
way?
I would say everybody keeps probably too many junk datasets around - at least I
do. And I run into the trouble of having to buy new TB plates every now and
then.
I think on average per year my group acquires currently ~700 GB of raw images
(compressed), now if we were to only keep the useful
Dear Herbert,
Category 4, in Manchester, we find is tricky, for want of a better word.
Needless to say that we have collaborators on our Crystallography Research
Service who request data sets from eg ten years ago, that are now urgent for
publication writing up. So we are keeping everything,
Dear Roger,
At the recent ICSTI Workshop on Delivering Data in science the NSF presenter,
when I asked about monitoring, replied that the PIs' annual reports should
include data management aspects.
See http://www.icsti.org/spip.php?rubrique42
Best wishes,
John
Prof John R Helliwell DSc FInstP
Dear John,
Thank you for a very informative letter about the IUCr activities towards
archiving the experimental data. I feel that I did not explain myself properly.
I do not object archiving the raw data, I just believe that current methodology
of validating data at PDB is insufficiently robust
This discussion has been interesting, and it's provided an interesting forum
for those interested in dealing with fraud in science. I've not contributed
anything to this thread, but the message from Alexander Aleshin prodded me to
say some things that I haven't heard expressed before.
1. The
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Ronald
E Stenkamp
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 1:04 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
This discussion has been interesting, and it's provided an interesting forum
for those interested in dealing with fraud
data.
Best, BR
-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Ronald
E Stenkamp
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 1:04 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
This discussion has been
Ojweh
c) Discarding your primary data is generally considered bad form...
Agreed, but it is a big burden on labs to maintain archives of their raw
data indefinitely.
Even IRS allows to discard them after some time.
But you DO have to file in the first place, right? How long to keep is an
Alright, if the image deposition is the only way out, then I am for it, but
please make sure that synchrotrons will do it for me...
On Apr 5, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Bernhard Rupp (Hofkristallrat a.D.) wrote:
Ojweh
c) Discarding your primary data is generally considered bad form...
Agreed,
How should they ?
They have no clue which of the 20 datasets was actually useful to solve your
structure.
If you ask James Holton he has (suggested) to go back to the archived data
after a certain time and try to solve the undeposited structures then :-)
[Where is James anyhow ? Haven't seen a
Did you play as a child a game called a broken phone? It is when someone
tells something quickly to a neighbor, and so on until the words come back to
the author. Very funny game.
My original thesis was that downloading/depositing the raw images would be a
pain in the neck for
No James, you're not alone - astonishing petty pile-on (bullying?) on
this board the last few days.
Wikipedia says:
In Internet slang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang, a
*troll* is someone who posts inflammatory,^[2]
Then everyone's data can be lost at once in the next cloud failure. Progress!
The hardware failed in such a way that we could not forensically restore the
data. What we were able to recover has been made available via a snapshot,
although the data is in such a state that it may have little
People who raise their voices for a prolonged storage of raw images miss a
simple fact that the volume of collected data increases proportionally if not
faster than the cost of storage space drops. I just had an opportunity to
collect data with the PILATUS detector at SSRL and say you that
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
Then everyone's data can be lost at once in the next cloud failure. Progress!
The hardware failed in such a way that we could not forensically restore the
data. What we were able to recover has been made
In fact, I would put it even stronger, if we know a referee is being dishonest,
it is our duty to make sure he is removed from science, blacklisted from the
journal etc.
Mark J van Raaij
Laboratorio M-4
Dpto de Estructura de Macromoleculas
Centro Nacional de Biotecnologia - CSIC
c/Darwin 3
Dear Colleagues,
One thing that would help is avoiding misappropriated priority of
research
results would be to join the math and physics community in their robust
use of open-access
preprints in arXiv. Such public preprints establish reliable timelines
for research credit
and help to
tom.p...@csiro.au
From: CCP4 bulletin board [CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Herbert J.
Bernstein [y...@bernstein-plus-sons.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 4:33 AM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data
On the topic of MX fraud : could not an encryption algorithm be
applied to answer the question of truth or falsity of a pdb/wwpdb/pdbe
entry? has anyone proposed such an idea before?
for example (admittedly this is a mess):
* a detector parameter - perhaps the serial number - is used as a
public
I'm not sure how encryption can solve a problem of truth or falsity.
Public key encryption only says that the message that is decrypted using
the public key must have been encrypted by someone who knows the private
key. A person can use their private key to encrypt a lie as well as the
truth.
Dear All,
Here may be another example for the importance of image storage.
http://www.jinkai.org/DERA/DERA_1O0Y_3R12.html
Regards,
Kevin
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Dale Tronrud det...@uoxray.uoregon.edu wrote:
I'm not sure how encryption can solve a problem of truth or falsity.
AFAIU any given checksum will tell you if a file is corrupted or not.
My brain decided to interpret that as true or false. and
A person can
.
The skill of presentation is at least as important in Science as being
right.
Best, BR
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Kevin
Jin
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:34 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data
.
** **
Best, BR
** **
*From:* CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] *On Behalf Of
*Kevin
Jin
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:34 PM
*To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
** **
Dear All
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Kevin
Jin
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:34 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UKmailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
Dear All,
Here may be another example for the importance of image storage.
http
as important in Science as being
right.
** **
Best, BR
** **
*From:* CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] *On Behalf Of
*Kevin Jin
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:34 PM
*To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
*Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data
, 2012 3:34 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UKmailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
Dear All,
Here may be another example for the importance of image storage.
http://www.jinkai.org/DERA/DERA_1O0Y_3R12.html
Regards,
Kevin
--
Kevin Jin
Hi,
Regarding the online image file storage issue, I just googled cloud storage
and had a look at the current pricing of such services. To my surprise, some
companies are offering unlimited storage for as low as $5 a month. So that's
$600 for 10 years. I am afraid that these companies will
On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:19 PM, Katherine Sippel wrote:
I would also consider looking into adding an RSS feed to your site so that
those people interested in your articles can be informed without spamming the
boards.
Why continue to punish him? Adding an RSS feed means installing and
James makes an important point. I've come to regret my joke as showing poor
manners. I hesitate to add to more email that no one cares about, but I do
think it is important to contribute the idea that the positive tone of this
forum needs to be protected. I apologize, and suggest my comments
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK]
On Behalf Of Bernhard
Rupp (Hofkristallrat a.D.)
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 06:06
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in
Data Fabrication
03, 2012 9:31 AM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
The sad situation is that more and more scientists are becoming
desperate (for funding or tenure or both) and are told 'publish or perish
I think that to review a paper containing a structure derived from
crystallographic data should indeed involve the referee having access
to coordinates and to the electron density. Without this access it
is not possible to judge the quality and very often even the
soundness of statements in the
Hi
I was thinking about the last statement in the Acta editorial - It is
important to note, however, that in neither of these cases was a single frame
of data collected. Not one.. This brought me back to the images..
To date there is no global acceptance that original diffractiom images
Hi Fred,
I'll go public on this one. This happened to me. I will not reveal who reviewed
my paper and which paper it was only that your naive assumption might not
always be correct. I have learned my lesson and exclude people with overlapping
interests (even though they actually might be the
The remedy for the fact that some reviewers act unethically is not withholding
coordinates and structure factors, but a more active role for the authors to
denounce these possible violations and more effective investigations by the
journals whose reviewers are suspected by the authors of
Mark,
I know some stories (which of course I'll not post here) from the
Crystallography field and from other fields where reviewers profit from the
fact that suddenly they have new, interpreted data which fits very well
with their own results. Stories like to block a manuscript or ask for more
I don't agree, if we know a referee is dishonest we should try and ruin his
whole career, not just prevent him from scooping us in this one case.
Mark J van Raaij
Laboratorio M-4
Dpto de Estructura de Macromoleculas
Centro Nacional de Biotecnologia - CSIC
c/Darwin 3
E-28049 Madrid, Spain
tel.
Dear all,
I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most
serious issue
that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case,
and the
whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and
Latin words
and what not.
In psychology such
To my mind it just points to the fact that many scientists are generally
unable to focus on one task or 'thing' at a time.
i.e. very short attention spans...
[before the flamer's start ‹ this is meant as a joke]
Tony.
---
Dr Antony W Oliver
Senior Research Fellow
CR-UK DNA Repair Enzymes Group
Dear Colleagues,
This is a further instance of likely scientific fraud in
macromolecular crystallography, ie under formal investigation at the
relevant university.
Both Bernhard and the Acta D and F Editors further document aspects in
their written pieces related to the need for diffraction data
Dear Manfred,
I understand your surprise and indignation, but for the sake of
fairness you might also remember that I argued rather insistently at the end
of last year in favour of the deposition of raw diffraction images, which is
the crux of this problem.
With best wishes,
For the latest documentary on trolls in Norway see
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740707/
The documentary describes both the classification system of Norwegian
Trolls and why they are sensitive to sun light, i.e turn to stone.
Depending in the species, some Trolls apparently prefer bridges and
: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
I hope and believe that this is not the case. Even basically-trained
crystallographers should be able to calculate andinterpret difference maps
of the kind described by Bernhard. And with the EDS
OK, following on our psychological displacement:
The examples Pheobe gave are mostly of collective nouns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_noun
to be distinguished from mass nouns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun
Strictly speaking, data is not a collective noun and is the plural
I am surprised that James Holton was not listed as a co-author, I
understand that he has been expending a great deal of effort into how to
accurately fabricate data.
--
===
All Things Serve the Beam
informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
I am surprised that James Holton was not listed as a co-author, I
understand that he has been expending a great deal of effort into how to
accurately fabricate data.
--
===
All Things Serve
Dear Manfred,
Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested,
here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
--Gerard
PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time.
Today we'll all be serious again and frown and
I thought Ethan was looking for the verb -- you know, fishing!!!
On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, jens Preben Morth wrote:
For the latest documentary on trolls in Norway see
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740707/
The documentary describes both the classification system of Norwegian Trolls
and why they are
datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very
informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Manfred,
Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested,
here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
--Gerard
[mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Gerard
DVD Kleywegt
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 8:04 AM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very
informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Manfred,
Outside Germany, such excursions are called
Dear Gerard,
inside Germany it's apparently called German Humour. There's a
Wikipedia entry for that as well. Go figure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_humor
Andreas
(still living on Sunday time)
On 02/04/2012 4:03, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote:
Dear Manfred,
Outside Germany, such
[mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of
Bernhard Rupp (Hofkristallrat a.D.)
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 06:06
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
Hofkristallrat außer Dienst, is written as Bernhard - unless you are
referring to some other
Dear Andreas,
That page confirms the old adage: German humour is no laughing matter.
--Gerard
On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Andreas F?rster wrote:
Dear Gerard,
inside Germany it's apparently called German Humour. There's a Wikipedia
entry for that as well. Go figure:
informative -
Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Manfred,
Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested,
here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
--Gerard
PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time.
Today we'll all
2012 08:41:02 -0700
From: CCP4 bulletin board CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK (on behalf of Bernhard Rupp
(Hofkristallrat a.D.) hofkristall...@gmail.com)
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Robbie has restored the PDB_REDO of 3k78
I like your point--somehow we should enlist the evil inclination to power
our science, a la Faust. How is it that those hackers are so innovative for
so little reward? I remember a Smithsonian article years ago which quoted
the calculated mean $/hr rate of money counterfeiters as being
, April 02, 2012 1:25 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
I like your point--somehow we should enlist the evil inclination to
power our science, a la Faust. How is it that those hackers are so
innovative for so little reward? I remember
Hm, last I checked my passport said German - still think I can make lots of fun
of myself. Some Germans are epigenetically marked with humor-suppressor genes
others not.
Jürgen
On Apr 2, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote:
Dear Manfred,
Outside Germany, such excursions are called
My favorite part of the german humor link:
Some German humorists such as
Loriothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicco_von_B%C3%BClow use seriousness as
means of humor.
On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Bosch, Juergen wrote:
Hm, last I checked my passport said German - still think I can make lots of
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
And the summary indicates that outside Germany = English speaking
world - which probably unveals its author as American ;-)
On 04/02/12 18:25, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote:
Dear Andreas,
That page confirms the old adage: German humour is no
CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK (on behalf of
Bernhard Rupp (Hofkristallrat a.D.) hofkristall...@gmail.com)
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Robbie has restored the PDB_REDO of 3k78
It is at www.cmbi.ru.nl/pdb_redo/others/3k78.tar.bz2
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Maria Sola i Vilarrubias
msv...@ibmb.csic.es wrote:
About a wrongly fit compound, the reviewer can ask images about the model in
a map calculated at a specific sigma and in different orientations.
This will often be insufficient, I'm afraid. We generally assume
Artem Evdokimov wrote:
I can't resist asking: If we assume that the data fabrication
techniques and the techniques for discovery of such activities should
have the same sort of arms race as the development of viruses and
anti-malvare software (but of course on a much more modest scale since
(on behalf of Bernhard Rupp (Hofkristallrat
a.D.) hofkristall...@gmail.com)
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends
in Data Fabrication
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Robbie has restored the PDB_REDO of 3k78
It is at
www.cmbi.ru.nl/pdb_redo
Vilarrubias msv...@ibmb.csic.es
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
To: pr...@uchicago.edu
Cc: CCP4BB@jiscmail.ac.uk
Dear Phoebe,
I cannot imagine myself delivering maps and
coordinates (after years of work... I insist: after
years of work
That's pretty funny, isn't it?
Andreas
On 02/04/2012 6:52, Jacob Keller wrote:
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but:
* *Antiwitz* (/anti-joke/): A short, often absurd scene, which has the
recognizable structure of a joke, but is illogical or lacking a
punch-line.
Example: /Two
I still believe Prof. Dr. Hofkristallrat außer Dienst, is written as
Bernhard - unless you are referring to some other guy with a french name
Bernard. And the book indeed is a bible of xtallography.
Jürgen
ausser Dienst ... now I get it ... my German is a lot worse than just spelling
names
The PDBe page for 3k78 says:
The experimental data has been deposited
the data cif file says:
data is under question
Grump.
Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them?
Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it:
Dear Paul,
May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who
wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. Related
instances are
* a phenomenon (singular) vs. several phenomena (plural),
* a criterion (singular) vs. several
.
From: CCP4 bulletin board [CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of
Bernhard Rupp (Hofkristallrat a.D.) [hofkristall...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 12:42 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication
-To: Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative -
Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Paul,
May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who
wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural
bulletin board CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:18:15
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Reply-To: Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative
- Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Paul,
May I join the mostly
Hear, hear! I'm glad to know I'm not the last grump left standing. When I raise
this point every year, my students regard me with bemused stares, as though
they've just seen a coelacanth swim past their window...
On 1 Apr 2012, at 10:18 AM, Gerard Bricogne wrote:
Dear Paul,
May I join
another singular/plural grump:
Recently we can read: phage are.
Phage is singular, the plural is phages (and this does not have that
much to do with latin or greek).
more reading:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3109450/
Quoting Paul Emsley:
The PDBe page for 3k78 says:
The
Think the jury might be out on this one... A quick snip from WikiDictionary...
The plural word phages refers to different types of phage, whereas in common
usage the word phage can be both singular and plural, referring in the plural
sense to particles of the same type of phage. Maloy et al:
Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them?
Is it too late to explain the difference between to and too?
--A much mellowed CD
On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote:
Dear Paul,
May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who
wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural.
When it are plural?
At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago.
--
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