Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Eric S. Sande wrote: ...But the United States is something new. We can, and do, toss the rascals out. On a regular basis. On occasion we do elect a new bunch of rascals. But the system is designed in such a way as to never allow particular rascals enough time to do real damage. What do you call real damage, if: * ignoring warnings and allowing the 3rd ever attack on American soil,(English sacking Washington, Pearl Harbor...) * starting two unfunded war-mire's, that have ended up making his enemies of the time (Al Queda, Iran, N.Korea).. and now Russia all more powerful, rather than weaker * Taking over a government budget surplus and ending up creating the biggest government deficit in real dollars ever, * presiding over the biggest economic and banking collapse since the depression, all while controlling the House, Senate and Executive Branch for the previous 6 years. * denying global warming impeding the dev. of alternative energy for most of his terms * cutting N.O.levee funding, ignoring warnings, putting his nimrod unqualified buddy in charge of FEMA and allowing, N.O to be washed away without even realizing what was going on for most of the first week * Putting more unqualified political hacks in charge of the gov than any pres ever... * Being in charge while the US became more unpopular internationally than in any other time in the last 100 years On the whole, George W. Bush wasn't a totally bad President. Maybe if you measure by how good he was at the Presidential vacation part of the job ... spending 1/3 of his days in Office on vacation out of Washington... mt. biking, jogging, cutting brush, fishing, . Yes he was stupid to invade Iraq. Yes he was an incredibly bad public speaker. But the moment of his Presidency that I will most remember was at 9:00 a.m. on 9/11/2001. He was reading to schoolchildren when an aide brought him the news. He was speechless, floored. Speechless ... as in clueless as to what to say or do maybe. What we do know is that he then got on Air Force One and headed for the western US leaving Cheney in the hot seat until the uproar over his silence and absence got the plane turned around. But he got up and kept on going. That my friends is class. By getting going... do you mean that 9/11 Air Force One flight, his penchant for jogging and Mt. biking, the Vietnam war service he ran out on ... the international diplomacy his gov. finally began attempting late in his last term or just the fact that he didn't resign? He did get out of bed each day in the White House mansion ... well, 2/3 of his days in office he did anyways ... when he wasn't going on vacation. Other than the times he had nothing to say of any import or the numerous times he couldn't speak grade school English , I remember him reading a bunch of scripted in mean spirited, jingoistic inflammatory, photo op press ops ... that he later said were the only things he regretted ... starting one war, failing to follow up on it, then starting a 2nd clusterone ... both of which accomplished exactly the opposite of everything intended and which remain as boat anchors around our necks today. O yeh... then as the economy collapsed, he was clearly doing nothing but going for the door ... We don't always elect the best people for the job. But we do elect them, and that is what is important. Well as I remember it wasn't in fact clear that we did. It turns out, Bush didn't win the popular vote in 2000 and if Gore had been as mean spirited, aggressive and militant a leader as Bush , it is not clear that the electoral challenge process, that was working its way to a conclusion, would have determined that Bush even won the Electoral College vote. I prefer to think we didn't elect him ... that election was just a precursor or harbinger of all the other boneheaded American disasters he cluelessly precipitated later. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Again, I was referring to contemporary usage of the terms liberal and conservative. If you looked at the link I gave, you will see that today the term liberal usually refers to Modern Liberal as described there. I cannot think of any modern conservatives who would side with the Tories. Modern conservatives are more attuned to the original principles of the Constitution (think Judge Scalia). b_s-wilk wrote: I would consider the founding fathers to be conservative, not liberal. You've got it. The Bill of Rights are PROHIBITIONS on what the federal government can do... Yep. Most of the founders of the United States, especially those who wrote the Constitution considered themselves to be liberal, in the tradition of the Age of Enlightenment. The definition of liberal hasn't changed that much since then. The conservatives were the ones who wanted to remain British, not the ones who wanted revolution. Good thing the founders weren't Libertarian, otherwise they'd never agree on a Constitution that would last, or even what to write. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
OK, now you've done it. Your post is so riddled with factual untruths I couldn't respond to all of them. But here a a few 1. Al-Qaeda declared war on the US in 1996 under the Clinton admin. 2. It was the Clinton administration who knew that Saddam had WMD and called for regime change 3. The terrorists of 9/11 came here and trained pre-Bush. The FBI and CIA had no actionable intelligence on this. Hence, the post 9/11 reorg to Homeland Security. 4. There was never a recount, including the one done by the NYT and Wash Post which put Gore ahead. Remember that the US Supreme Court ruled 7-2 that the Florida courts kept changing the rules for vote counting. And, believe it or not, I would agree with you on a couple of points. Bush most certainly should have pulled out his veto pen on the profligate spending of the Republican controlled Congress. He was not a great speaker. db wrote: Eric S. Sande wrote: ...But the United States is something new. We can, and do, toss the rascals out. On a regular basis. On occasion we do elect a new bunch of rascals. But the system is designed in such a way as to never allow particular rascals enough time to do real damage. What do you call real damage, if: * ignoring warnings and allowing the 3rd ever attack on American soil,(English sacking Washington, Pearl Harbor...) * starting two unfunded war-mire's, that have ended up making his enemies of the time (Al Queda, Iran, N.Korea).. and now Russia all more powerful, rather than weaker * Taking over a government budget surplus and ending up creating the biggest government deficit in real dollars ever, * presiding over the biggest economic and banking collapse since the depression, all while controlling the House, Senate and Executive Branch for the previous 6 years. * denying global warming impeding the dev. of alternative energy for most of his terms * cutting N.O.levee funding, ignoring warnings, putting his nimrod unqualified buddy in charge of FEMA and allowing, N.O to be washed away without even realizing what was going on for most of the first week * Putting more unqualified political hacks in charge of the gov than any pres ever... * Being in charge while the US became more unpopular internationally than in any other time in the last 100 years On the whole, George W. Bush wasn't a totally bad President. Maybe if you measure by how good he was at the Presidential vacation part of the job ... spending 1/3 of his days in Office on vacation out of Washington... mt. biking, jogging, cutting brush, fishing, . Yes he was stupid to invade Iraq. Yes he was an incredibly bad public speaker. But the moment of his Presidency that I will most remember was at 9:00 a.m. on 9/11/2001. He was reading to schoolchildren when an aide brought him the news. He was speechless, floored. Speechless ... as in clueless as to what to say or do maybe. What we do know is that he then got on Air Force One and headed for the western US leaving Cheney in the hot seat until the uproar over his silence and absence got the plane turned around. But he got up and kept on going. That my friends is class. By getting going... do you mean that 9/11 Air Force One flight, his penchant for jogging and Mt. biking, the Vietnam war service he ran out on ... the international diplomacy his gov. finally began attempting late in his last term or just the fact that he didn't resign? He did get out of bed each day in the White House mansion ... well, 2/3 of his days in office he did anyways ... when he wasn't going on vacation. Other than the times he had nothing to say of any import or the numerous times he couldn't speak grade school English , I remember him reading a bunch of scripted in mean spirited, jingoistic inflammatory, photo op press ops ... that he later said were the only things he regretted ... starting one war, failing to follow up on it, then starting a 2nd clusterone ... both of which accomplished exactly the opposite of everything intended and which remain as boat anchors around our necks today. O yeh... then as the economy collapsed, he was clearly doing nothing but going for the door ... We don't always elect the best people for the job. But we do elect them, and that is what is important. Well as I remember it wasn't in fact clear that we did. It turns out, Bush didn't win the popular vote in 2000 and if Gore had been as mean spirited, aggressive and militant a leader as Bush , it is not clear that the electoral challenge process, that was working its way to a conclusion, would have determined that Bush even won the Electoral College vote. I prefer to think we didn't elect him ... that election was just a precursor or harbinger of all the other boneheaded American disasters he cluelessly precipitated later. * **
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
A number of Tories did not do so because they felt the revolution was wrong but because of religious teaching. Henry Melchior Muhlenburg was the father of a number of active members of the revolution. (father of Peter and Frederick both active participants) He felt that they were going against the God ordained leaders provided the colonists. In those days this was a very strong and committed belief held by many religious types. He was upset that his sons forsook the church as he saw it and served the rebellious continental army. He did however stay and supported the government when the revolution was over. He is considered the father of the American Lutheran Movement. It is very difficult to project 20th-21st century ideals on 18th century situations. Culture, Society and values have changed. Stewart At 07:58 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: Again, I was referring to contemporary usage of the terms liberal and conservative. If you looked at the link I gave, you will see that today the term liberal usually refers to Modern Liberal as described there. I cannot think of any modern conservatives who would side with the Tories. Modern conservatives are more attuned to the original principles of the Constitution (think Judge Scalia). Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Steve at Verizon stevet...@verizon.netwrote: Again, I was referring to contemporary usage of the terms liberal and conservative. If you looked at the link I gave, you will see that today the term liberal usually refers to Modern Liberal as described there. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Liberation theology refers to the Catholic priests and nuns who worked to protect the local people against the dictators who controlled the governments, mostly in Latin America. Not just Catholic. There were a number of mainline Protestants denominations that bought into it. Stewart - Thanks for the clarification. Although predominently Catholic, the Latin American countries have moderate representation by a cross section of religious groups, including Christian protestants, Jews, Muslims, Santería, Macumba, Hindi, Buddhist, Baha'i, etc. The liberation theology is primarily Christian, however conservative [not mainline] Catholics and evangelicals are often in opposition, supporting the conservative governments/opposition [incl. some wealthy landowners and foreign corporations] working against the general [and indigenous] population, as seen most recently in Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
It is sad that the moderate position which would have included justice issues etc. did not prevail. Religion serves best when it is a leavening/change agent among the people and not part of the ruling power, nor the opposition power. A theologian once stated that we Christians should be in the world but not of the world. (paraphrasing Scripture) Stewart At 11:04 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: Stewart - Thanks for the clarification. Although predominently Catholic, the Latin American countries have moderate representation by a cross section of religious groups, including Christian protestants, Jews, Muslims, SanterÃa, Macumba, Hindi, Buddhist, Baha'i, etc. The liberation theology is primarily Christian, however conservative [not mainline] Catholics and evangelicals are often in opposition, supporting the conservative governments/opposition [incl. some wealthy landowners and foreign corporations] working against the general [and indigenous] population, as seen most recently in Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador. Betty Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
In many ways RR was the textbook neo-conservative - he was a Democrat before as he said I did not leave the Democratic Party, The Democratic Party left me. On Feb 8, 2009, at 1:23 AM, Eric S. Sande wrote: Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. Velvet Revolution, Czechoslovakia. Pretty much the same thing happened in other countries after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Thank you Ronald Reagan. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. Neocons will disagree, but I nominate the USofA. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Those were classical liberals, aka paleoconservatives in todays lexicon. One could argue that Lincoln's Republicans overthrew that federal republic government by force with a more national republic, and then FDR's brand of liberals overthrew that government when they eviscerated limited government by ruling that the commerce clause essentially lets Congress legislate on any matter in any manner. On Feb 8, 2009, at 2:01 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. Neocons will disagree, but I nominate the USofA. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Ever heard of liberation theology? Seen the news reports of all the delightful celebrities cozying up to left wing thugs and dictators? Idolizing the Viet Cong and NVA? Worshiping at the feet of the Sandanista's (and Ortega is at it again I hear)? Name calling is not a substitute for thought. Perhaps that is sufficient within your con/neocon cabal, but not here. Thoughtful people will dispute your contention the above named were any more in the wrong then their opponents. Liberation theology has very little to do with your con/neocon bogeyman. It focuses on Christ's teachings to bring justice to the poor. While cons/neocons may consider Christ to be the devil incarnate, I think most thoughtful people would not accept that. If you want to propose that the US policy in South East Asia during the 1970s was proper this is going to be a very long thread. Note that the government that was fighting to expel the neocolonialists is still in power and has good relations with the USA. What changed? Ortega was (and is now once again) a democratically elected president. What's your point? Did you support the right-wing thugs who were sent to overthrow him? Note that after a change in US administrations the situation in Latin America changed dramatically. For many years democracy in the Americas was doing quite well. Things did not begin to turn sour again until Bush 43 revived old counter-productive policies. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I agree with the USA part, but most actions were left/right united, as in WWI, and WWII. But mostly the right in winning the Cold War. And, if I may be so bold, the neocons can take credit for ousting a totalitarian regime and establishing a multi-party representative government in Iraq. Yes, can't say the war is officially over, but Iraq feels self-sufficient to assume full responsibility without our help in a year or two. Tom Piwowar wrote: Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. Neocons will disagree, but I nominate the USofA. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
But mostly the right in winning the Cold War. And, if I may be so bold, the neocons can take credit for ousting a totalitarian regime... I fear that historians will identify Bush 43 and his neocons as bringing about the end of the American century. They may not even call it that. It did not even last a century. The era of American preeminence started with WW I and ended with the Iraq invasion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Ever heard of liberation theology? Seen the news reports of all the delightful celebrities cozying up to left wing thugs and dictators? Idolizing the Viet Cong and NVA? Worshiping at the feet of the Sandanista's (and Ortega is at it again I hear)? Liberation theology refers to the Catholic priests and nuns who worked to protect the local people against the dictators who controlled the governments, mostly in Latin America. It has nothing to do with celebrities. Viet Cong weren't liberal. They were nationalists, fighting to remove the colonial influences from their country. Sandinistas are also nationalists, with goals more along the line of freeing the country from a series of brutal dictators that the US installed every time the Nicaraguan people voted for someone they liked. Communism in its ideal form might appear liberal, but it has never been anything but a label used by dictators to pacify the rabble while enslaving them. I have a family full of refugees from a variety of Latin American countries who would never say that any of those brutal governments have ever been liberal. You have confused the labels with the realities. It's like putting a picture of someone else on your Facebook page and saying that it's you, only with deadly consequences. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. That's easy; here's two. The United States--original 13 colonies. India, 1947, with work of Mahandas K. Gandhi. How about the Magna Carta in 1215 creating a nation of laws, not totally controlled by royal dictators. Are you still confused? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
At 07:48 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: Liberation theology refers to the Catholic priests and nuns who worked to protect the local people against the dictators who controlled the governments, mostly in Latin America. It has nothing to do with celebrities. Viet Cong weren't liberal. They were nationalists, fighting to remove the colonial influences from their country. Sandinistas are also nationalists, with goals more along the line of freeing the country from a series of brutal dictators that the US installed every time the Nicaraguan people voted for someone they liked. Not just Catholic. There were a number of mainline Protestants denominations that bought into it. Communism in its ideal form might appear liberal, but it has never been anything but a label used by dictators to pacify the rabble while enslaving them. I have a family full of refugees from a variety of Latin American countries who would never say that any of those brutal governments have ever been liberal. You have confused the labels with the realities. It's like putting a picture of someone else on your Facebook page and saying that it's you, only with deadly consequences. We have never seen pure communism. Marxist theory which Communism is based upon, wipes out all distinctions of class and position. Non of the political systems that call them selves communistic achieved this, as they kept class distinction between ruling class=privilege and working class=non privilege. It has also wrecked havoc on environmental issues and technology. Socialism on the other hand is not always communistic. It tries to level the playing field to the point where most everyone has a chance. Again not always successfully achieved because of mans desire to always have more and especially more than his neighbor. Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Neocons will disagree, but I nominate the USofA. Recommend you read Crane Brinton's The Anatomy of Revolution. The 1965 revision of a 1938 book. This is actual, serious scholarship and it is dead on. I do not know what your agenda is with regard to conservatives in general, you have always impressed me as being at least rational, preferring Mac to an extreme degree but at least conversant with other OSes. Well, I'm a conservative. You find that hard to believe from an Amiga using, Linux supporting broken down gamer like me? Not too hard to understand. I value individual liberty and the Constitution, as written. Those are the rules of our society. It would be easy to imagine a government that breaks faith with those that elected it. It is said that people get the government they deserve. But the United States is something new. We can, and do, toss the rascals out. On a regular basis. On occasion we do elect a new bunch of rascals. But the system is designed in such a way as to never allow particular rascals enough time to do real damage. On the whole, George W. Bush wasn't a totally bad President. Yes he was stupid to invade Iraq. Yes he was an incredibly bad public speaker. But the moment of his Presidency that I will most remember was at 9:00 a.m. on 9/11/2001. He was reading to schoolchildren when an aide brought him the news. He was speechless, floored. But he got up and kept on going. That my friends is class. We don't always elect the best people for the job. But we do elect them, and that is what is important. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
In todays categorization of the terms, in general, I consider conservatives to believe in limited government involvement in our lives and liberals to want more, especially at the federal level. Thus the battles over National Health Care, federal funding of all kinds of social programs, using the tax code to redistribute wealth, etc. In that regard, I would consider the founding fathers to be conservative, not liberal. They wrote a Constitution to explicitly provide enumerated services like banking, coinage, and a military. The Bill of Rights are PROHIBITIONS on what the federal government can do (Congress shall make no law...) and they tried to further limit its powers with the 10th Amendment (The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people) but it only lasted until 1837. Never repealed but de facto repealed by the courts. I will give you India. Thanks. But I think it is hard to categorize todays use of liberal/conservative terminology to the 13th century. (And initially, the MC applied only to the King's Barons.) In research, I found this definition of the term Liberal. http://www.conservative-resources.com/definition-of-liberal.html Now this is a conservative site, but please look at the first 6 items. I think it is fair and accurate to the classical meaning which we can all probably agree with. If you are a Modern Liberal, stop reading there (that means you, Tom), as its likely you will be offended by the remainder of the essay . (Conservative axe grinding) b_s-wilk wrote: Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. That's easy; here's two. The United States--original 13 colonies. India, 1947, with work of Mahandas K. Gandhi. How about the Magna Carta in 1215 creating a nation of laws, not totally controlled by royal dictators. Are you still confused? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I would consider the founding fathers to be conservative, not liberal. You've got it. The Bill of Rights are PROHIBITIONS on what the federal government can do... Yep. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
But mostly the right in winning the Cold War. And, if I may be so bold, the neocons can take credit for ousting a totalitarian regime... I fear that historians will identify Bush 43 and his neocons as bringing about the end of the American century. They may not even call it that. It did not even last a century. The era of American preeminence started with WW I and ended with the Iraq invasion. The right wing _started_ the Cold War. They were the military-industrial complex that Dwight Eisenhower warned us against. The Soviet Union was never as powerful as they claimed. They demonized Soviets who were not nearly as powerful nor evil as cons claimed as a ruse to build more expensive weapons. They propped up Saddam Hussein and gave him weapons to fight Iran. They were the war profiteers who lied in 2002 to go to war in Iraq even though Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, then they stole $billions after carpet-bombing a country that wasn't our enemy. The cons made US the enemy. The cons made US the bad guys. Fortunately, people outside the United States are smarter than many here because they not only forgive us for having criminals running our country, they empathize and wish us well--after the trials and convictions. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I would consider the founding fathers to be conservative, not liberal. You've got it. The Bill of Rights are PROHIBITIONS on what the federal government can do... Yep. Most of the founders of the United States, especially those who wrote the Constitution considered themselves to be liberal, in the tradition of the Age of Enlightenment. The definition of liberal hasn't changed that much since then. The conservatives were the ones who wanted to remain British, not the ones who wanted revolution. Good thing the founders weren't Libertarian, otherwise they'd never agree on a Constitution that would last, or even what to write. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
At 07:44 PM 2/6/2009, you wrote: Over time people have gotten better at working together in an organized if imperfect fashion. The cons/neocons call that big government. neocons want democracy but in the name of democracy their incompetence and religion beliefs have created anarcy. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Many of us religious types do not identify with their so-called religious beliefs. They claim religious underpinning but are not really religious. (Many folks who claim some religious belief are not truly active in churches. For every 100 who claim a church, only 40 really attend.) Stewart At 07:52 AM 2/7/2009, you wrote: neocons want democracy but in the name of democracy their incompetence and religion beliefs have created anarcy. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
As opposed to the world wide good liberal activists and supporters of liberation have done over the years. Pot, kettle, kettle, pot. Have fun knocking heads. Matthew On Feb 7, 2009, at 8:52 AM, gerald wrote: At 07:44 PM 2/6/2009, you wrote: Over time people have gotten better at working together in an organized if imperfect fashion. The cons/neocons call that big government. neocons want democracy but in the name of democracy their incompetence and religion beliefs have created anarcy. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
On Feb 6, 2009, at 7:44 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Until very recently in our history few Americans would assume that if they failed at something government would back them up. This is plainly false. Going back 1000s of years history shows us people working together in an organized if imperfect fashion to solve common problems. Given that American history is fairly recent, what value is there in going back 1000's of years to demonstrate that government has existed? Read some colonial and expansion period American history, both political and cultural. You won't find many examples of people seeking government bail outs. Yes, government and the general citizenry collaborated on really big infrastructure (canals, railroads and such). Not so many government jobs programs. What you do see its lots of people working together in an organized if imperfect fashion - through their churches, abolitionist societies, service clubs, grange associations, and others. Why do you appear to assume that only government can serve as an organizing force? You are arguing for a brutal and savage world. Is that wise? No, I am not. The world is brutal, and parts of it quite savage. Free people can choose to be other than brutal and savage through voluntary cooperation of communities of interest outside of government's coercive powers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
On Feb 6, 2009, at 7:11 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: And a principle enabler of that opportunity was a people unshackled by restraining government and class structures, free to make the most those opportunities through hard work. This is the concept of everyman as noble savage. No, this is the concept of the rights of man. That man is not a subject of a king bound to a station by birth, but responsible for their own destiny - imperfect, often selfish, but endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You might recognize that last part. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Many of us religious types do not identify with their so-called religious beliefs. They claim religious underpinning but are not really religious. Hence, the ironic speculations during the Bush years about who would Jesus torture or what would Jesus drive. Maybe you would also agree that there are millions of people who are not religious at all who are at least as virtuous as those who claim to have great faith. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Never said otherwise. Part of the problem with America and religion is that we have usually mixed up civil and religious righteousness. My faith group has always recognized a separation of the two. Christians who undercut and say you cant be as righteous as I am often are mixing up the two. I can't make you believe and have no desire beating you over the head with it. However I will not condemn the good you do. Everyone who does good is good. However that is talking on a civil level (or secular) I have often said I would much prefer to be judged by God than by Man. At least with God I know where I stand. Stewart At 11:59 AM 2/7/2009, you wrote: Maybe you would also agree that there are millions of people who are not religious at all who are at least as virtuous as those who claim to have great faith. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
No, this is the concept of the rights of man. That man is not a subject of a king bound to a station by birth, but responsible for their own destiny - imperfect, often selfish, but endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You might recognize that last part. The guys who wrote that were establishing a GOVERNMENT. What's your point? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Given that American history is fairly recent, what value is there in going back 1000's of years Wow, jingoism in the extreme. History started some 200 years ago and nothing else counts. All I can do is sputter in disbelief. Why do you appear to assume that only government can serve as an organizing force? I never said only. It is one of many, and a very effective one. Why do you see government as a bogeyman? I have seen the government and it is us. Not scary at all. No, I am not. The world is brutal, and parts of it quite savage. Free people can choose to be other than brutal and savage through voluntary cooperation of communities of interest outside of government's coercive powers. No police, no fire department, no military, no food inspectors, etc. etc. Looks brutal and savage to me. Government is voluntary cooperation. You are free to move to any other locality with a government that you prefer. I already mentioned Somalia and Zimbabwe as possibilities. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
As opposed to the world wide good liberal activists and supporters of liberation have done over the years. Where did this happen? The liberators I recall are mostly the cons overthrowing popularly elected governments in places like Iran [at least twice], Chile, Australia, Honduras, Cuba [remember Batista? He was our puppet], El Salvador, Nicaragua [at least 4x], Venezuela [cons failed], Panama [at least twice], and plenty more cons' targets. What liberals overthrew a government and deliberately made a worse situation for the people? Don't pretend that Castro was liberal--he's a nationalist who overthrew our Mafia-run puppet [my family made it out in time] then faced an unwarranted embargo, so give another example, please, or cut out this neocon propaganda. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Ever heard of liberation theology? Seen the news reports of all the delightful celebrities cozying up to left wing thugs and dictators? Idolizing the Viet Cong and NVA? Worshiping at the feet of the Sandanista's (and Ortega is at it again I hear)? I love the way you and Tom keep calling me a neo-con given that I am nothing of the sort. On Feb 7, 2009, at 4:53 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: As opposed to the world wide good liberal activists and supporters of liberation have done over the years. Where did this happen? The liberators I recall are mostly the cons overthrowing popularly elected governments in places like Iran [at least twice], Chile, Australia, Honduras, Cuba [remember Batista? He was our puppet], El Salvador, Nicaragua [at least 4x], Venezuela [cons failed], Panama [at least twice], and plenty more cons' targets. What liberals overthrew a government and deliberately made a worse situation for the people? Don't pretend that Castro was liberal-- he's a nationalist who overthrew our Mafia-run puppet [my family made it out in time] then faced an unwarranted embargo, so give another example, please, or cut out this neocon propaganda. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Depends if you consider Communists liberal (and before anyone complains that I used those two words in the same sentence, the converse is NOT necessarily the case) Then we have Russia (yes, serfdom was terrible, but Stalin killed 30 million of his own people), China (the glorious Cultural Revolution), North Korea, Venezuela (we cons may have failed, but Chavez has become a dictator, no free press, no free speech), likewise Bolivia, and I would debate you on Cuba (only did OK until they lost the financial support of the USSR, and don't blame it all on the US embargo). Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. b_s-wilk wrote: As opposed to the world wide good liberal activists and supporters of liberation have done over the years. Where did this happen? The liberators I recall are mostly the cons overthrowing popularly elected governments in places like Iran [at least twice], Chile, Australia, Honduras, Cuba [remember Batista? He was our puppet], El Salvador, Nicaragua [at least 4x], Venezuela [cons failed], Panama [at least twice], and plenty more cons' targets. What liberals overthrew a government and deliberately made a worse situation for the people? Don't pretend that Castro was liberal--he's a nationalist who overthrew our Mafia-run puppet [my family made it out in time] then faced an unwarranted embargo, so give another example, please, or cut out this neocon propaganda. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Please give me an example where liberals did overthrow a government and replaced it with a democratic one along the lines of the western world. Velvet Revolution, Czechoslovakia. Pretty much the same thing happened in other countries after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Thank you Ronald Reagan. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
working together in an organized if imperfect fashion (ie: government) This is a wonderful definition. Thank you. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
And a principle enabler of that opportunity was a people unshackled by restraining government and class structures, free to make the most those opportunities through hard work. This is the concept of everyman as noble savage. Stanley Kubrick said it very well...Man isn't a noble savage, he's an ignoble savage. He is irrational, brutal, weak, silly, unable to be objective about anything where his own interests are involved -- that about sums it up... any attempt to create social institutions on a false view of the nature of man is probably doomed to failure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Until very recently in our history few Americans would assume that if they failed at something government would back them up. This is plainly false. Going back 1000s of years history shows us people working together in an organized if imperfect fashion to solve common problems. You are arguing for a brutal and savage world. Is that wise? Over time people have gotten better at working together in an organized if imperfect fashion. The cons/neocons call that big government. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
ps: Basically, I think American's are spoiled rotten in general and are beginning to get their comeuppance and a lesson about priorities and the power and advantages of working together in an organized if imperfect fashion (ie: government) db John Emmerling wrote: Some general observations (I make some assertions without proof, feel free to provide contradictory data): 1.) Compared to other western countries, Americans are significantly more religious. Religious folk seem to see life's problems as being between themselves and God, and don't have much use for the government. BTW I don't mean this as a criticism. 2.) The US has always embraced small town and rural culture and disdained urban life. Rural and small-town people typically depend on themselves, their family, and their neighbors for survival, and don't have much use for the government. In other western countries, the urban elite seem to have more influence, and they look down on country folk as backward. And urban existence, with its dependence on a complex infrastructure, depends heavily on having an effective government (go visit Mogadishu if you don't believe me). 3.) Americans have come to expect government initiatives to fail. They consider a career working for the government (except in the areas of law enforcement and national security) as a refuge for the incompetent. Largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. As a consequence, Americans don't see themselves as getting much return for their tax dollars, and so they basically feel they are being robbed. I am not prepared to say whether they are right or wrong. Having grown up and lived all my life in the US, it always amazes me that people in countries like France are not afraid to trust their health care entirely to government employees. On the other hand, I can't ignore the ample evidence that supports this conclusion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Yes, spoiled by liberty into thinking that liberty was a natural state of man. Something about self evident truths which I guess you think no longer apply. Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:08 PM, db wrote: Basically, I think American's are spoiled rotten in general and are beginning to get their comeuppance and a lesson about priorities and the power and advantages of working together in an organized if imperfect fashion (ie: government) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
That statement by Jefferson in the Continuation is a real reflection of the Enlightenment teaching of the 17 and 18th century. Before this time the concept of liberty was very limited and only tot hose who had. Even in the US the early Fathers believed that only those who owned property should vote. Not a very broad concept of liberty. See this web site for more info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment Stewart At 08:34 PM 2/4/2009, you wrote: Yes, spoiled by liberty into thinking that liberty was a natural state of man. Something about self evident truths which I guess you think no longer apply. Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:08 PM, db wrote: Basically, I think American's are spoiled rotten in general and are beginning to get their comeuppance and a lesson about priorities and the power and advantages of working together in an organized if imperfect fashion (ie: government) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I think you meant to say the Declaration of Independence, rather than Constitution. Liberty does not, and has not always equalled the franchise. A compelling argument can be made that only those who have a permanent stake in a society, and who pay taxes to support it, ought to be able to vote how those taxes are spent. Back then that meant property owning males. We have expanded that definition of who deserves the franchise, and the tax base, since then. Matthew On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: That statement by Jefferson in the Continuation is a real reflection of the Enlightenment teaching of the 17 and 18th century. Before this time the concept of liberty was very limited and only tot hose who had. Even in the US the early Fathers believed that only those who owned property should vote. Not a very broad concept of liberty. See this web site for more info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment Stewart * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I apologize to those who are sick of seeing non-computer stuff here. I've mentioned before, the common knowledge that the people in countries there the taxes are high tend to feel more satisfied with life. So I dug up an article and a study to with charts and graphs that show this. One talks about measures of well being, and is a pdf from Deutche Bank: http://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD00202587.pdf The other is an article from MSN Money that lists tax burdens of industrialized countries. (I know, it might be another Microsoft plot) http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp Interesting stuff. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I would like to see the source data they used for tax levels, and if they included corporate taxes as well. Americans (and Europeans) pay a lot of layered on (sales, gas) hidden taxes (basically taxes that were paid by a provider) they don't really see, but do effect them. On Jan 31, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Jordan wrote: I apologize to those who are sick of seeing non-computer stuff here. I've mentioned before, the common knowledge that the people in countries there the taxes are high tend to feel more satisfied with life. So I dug up an article and a study to with charts and graphs that show this. One talks about measures of well being, and is a pdf from Deutche Bank: http://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD00202587.pdf The other is an article from MSN Money that lists tax burdens of industrialized countries. (I know, it might be another Microsoft plot) http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp Interesting stuff. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Some general observations (I make some assertions without proof, feel free to provide contradictory data): 1.) Compared to other western countries, Americans are significantly more religious. Religious folk seem to see life's problems as being between themselves and God, and don't have much use for the government. BTW I don't mean this as a criticism. 2.) The US has always embraced small town and rural culture and disdained urban life. Rural and small-town people typically depend on themselves, their family, and their neighbors for survival, and don't have much use for the government. In other western countries, the urban elite seem to have more influence, and they look down on country folk as backward. And urban existence, with its dependence on a complex infrastructure, depends heavily on having an effective government (go visit Mogadishu if you don't believe me). 3.) Americans have come to expect government initiatives to fail. They consider a career working for the government (except in the areas of law enforcement and national security) as a refuge for the incompetent. Largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. As a consequence, Americans don't see themselves as getting much return for their tax dollars, and so they basically feel they are being robbed. I am not prepared to say whether they are right or wrong. Having grown up and lived all my life in the US, it always amazes me that people in countries like France are not afraid to trust their health care entirely to government employees. On the other hand, I can't ignore the ample evidence that supports this conclusion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
John Emmerling wrote: Some general observations (I make some assertions without proof, feel free to provide contradictory data): 1.) Compared to other western countries, Americans are significantly more religious. Religious folk seem to see life's problems as being between themselves and God, and don't have much use for the government. BTW I don't mean this as a criticism. I don't think it's rational to view life through a God lens, or make decisions based on religious beliefs. The middle east is what you may get. 2.) The US has always embraced small town and rural culture and disdained urban life. I don't agree. Rural and small-town people typically depend on themselves, their family, and their neighbors for survival, and don't have much use for the government. The rural areas of Europe do this to a far greater degree than here. In other western countries, the urban elite seem to have more influence, and they look down on country folk as backward. And urban existence, with its dependence on a complex infrastructure, depends heavily on having an effective government (go visit Mogadishu if you don't believe me). I believe this is more true here. 3.) Americans have come to expect government initiatives to fail. They consider a career working for the government (except in the areas of law enforcement and national security) as a refuge for the incompetent. Largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. The radical right has worked for years to make people believe this. But it doesn't have to be that way. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
On Jan 31, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Jordan wrote: John Emmerling wrote: Some general observations (I make some assertions without proof, feel free to provide contradictory data): 1.) Compared to other western countries, Americans are significantly more religious. Religious folk seem to see life's problems as being between themselves and God, and don't have much use for the government. BTW I don't mean this as a criticism. I don't think it's rational to view life through a God lens, or make decisions based on religious beliefs. The middle east is what you may get. Wow - for many people religion = moral code of ethics. What should inform their decisions? 2.) The US has always embraced small town and rural culture and disdained urban life. I don't agree. Which part? Certainly the US has embraces small town and rural culture in a big way. As for disdained urban life, certainly a part of US society does and has, clearly another part has embraced it. Rural and small-town people typically depend on themselves, their family, and their neighbors for survival, and don't have much use for the government. The rural areas of Europe do this to a far greater degree than here. Citations please. In other western countries, the urban elite seem to have more influence, and they look down on country folk as backward. And urban existence, with its dependence on a complex infrastructure, depends heavily on having an effective government (go visit Mogadishu if you don't believe me). I believe this is more true here. More true than in Europe with its much higher population density? 3.) Americans have come to expect government initiatives to fail. They consider a career working for the government (except in the areas of law enforcement and national security) as a refuge for the incompetent. Largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. The radical right has worked for years to make people believe this. But it doesn't have to be that way. I am neither radical right nor left. My experience with government, both personally and as a contractor to, has not left me with a positive impression of government. My all time favorite remains being told by the highest civil servant in the NJ Dept. of Motor Vehicles The courts have their opinion, we have ours right after he refused to remove points from my record for citations the courts had found me not guilty of. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Matthew Taylor wrote: On Jan 31, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Jordan wrote: John Emmerling wrote: Some general observations (I make some assertions without proof, feel free to provide contradictory data): 1.) Compared to other western countries, Americans are significantly more religious. Religious folk seem to see life's problems as being between themselves and God, and don't have much use for the government. BTW I don't mean this as a criticism. I don't think it's rational to view life through a God lens, or make decisions based on religious beliefs. The middle east is what you may get. Wow - for many people religion = moral code of ethics. What should inform their decisions? Either you are moral or you are not. It comes from empathy. There is even some evidence that there is a genetic element to this. 2.) The US has always embraced small town and rural culture and disdained urban life. I don't agree. Which part? Certainly the US has embraces small town and rural culture in a big way. How? As for disdained urban life, certainly a part of US society does and has, clearly another part has embraced it. Rural and small-town people typically depend on themselves, their family, and their neighbors for survival, and don't have much use for the government. The rural areas of Europe do this to a far greater degree than here. Citations please. For starters, watch travel shows. In other western countries, the urban elite seem to have more influence, and they look down on country folk as backward. And urban existence, with its dependence on a complex infrastructure, depends heavily on having an effective government (go visit Mogadishu if you don't believe me). I believe this is more true here. More true than in Europe with its much higher population density? The need for a good government can be more important in rural areas where there is less economic incentive for developing infrastructure. Again travel shows and reading about communities and social structure in Europe show a respect for farmers and what they do and how they do it. The general population in Europe is much more interested in good healthy food than here. 3.) Americans have come to expect government initiatives to fail. They consider a career working for the government (except in the areas of law enforcement and national security) as a refuge for the incompetent. Largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. The radical right has worked for years to make people believe this. But it doesn't have to be that way. I am neither radical right nor left. My experience with government, both personally and as a contractor to, has not left me with a positive impression of government. Then Bush and the boys were successful! If you want to see documentation of this, read _The Wrecking Crew_ by Thomas Frank or check out this article about the book: http://harpers.org/archive/2008/08/0082132 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
That happens in Europe the same as here. That is a low level Civil Servant trying to impress you with the power they do not really have but wish they do. Stewart At 11:30 AM 1/31/2009, you wrote: I am neither radical right nor left. My experience with government, both personally and as a contractor to, has not left me with a positive impression of government. My all time favorite remains being told by the highest civil servant in the NJ Dept. of Motor Vehicles The courts have their opinion, we have ours right after he refused to remove points from my record for citations the courts had found me not guilty of. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
As a consequence, Americans don't see themselves as getting much return for their tax dollars, and so they basically feel they are being robbed. I am not prepared to say whether they are right or wrong. Having grown up and lived all my life in the US, it always amazes me that people in countries like France are not afraid to trust their health care entirely to government employees. On the other hand, I can't ignore the ample evidence that supports this conclusion. Over the years I have had several encounters eith European health care. It has been uniformly good. It has been uniformly available even on weekends and evening hours when it would have been hard to get in the USA. The biggest negative has been some good natured chiding about how health care is managed in the USA. The chiding came with apologies that they had to chage for service because we were Americans. The 'high fee' imposed was close to the co-pay extracted from me by my US insurer (I didn't tell them that). Too many people in this country are victims of propaganda generated by the corporate interests that are ripping them off. 3.) Americans have come to expect government initiatives to fail. They consider a career working for the government (except in the areas of law enforcement and national security) as a refuge for the incompetent. Largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Only true when they elect neocons to run the government. Observe how fiercely they fight the President to assure that the government will fail to perform. This time I think America will win. At least I hope so. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I apologize to those who are sick of seeing non-computer stuff here. Tolerated because it proves that we have established a real community. We had a similar tear after 9/11. It took a few weeks to peter out and I think most of us were better for it happening. And our computer business continues unabated. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
I don't think it's rational to view life through a God lens, or make decisions based on religious beliefs. The middle east is what you may get. Again an inability to make the necessary distinctions to successfully navagate life. The problem in the Middle East is extremeists who have hijacked religion in support of their radical agendas. Talk to any genuine religious leader and they will tell you that the extremeists have nothing to do with their religion, aften taking stands that directly oppose recognized religious teaching. Of course neocons, being extremeists themselves, will tend to congregate with other extremists. They feel a common solidarity. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
It is all about power and retaliation. What many folks do not know is that many Israeli's are not religious Israeli's. The conservative Rabbi's rail against this all the time. In Islam there is no central authority and many of the Rabid Radical Imam's disagree with the highly moderate Imam's. Same thing in Christianity. Many of the Main-line Protestant Churches do not agree with the more radical conservative churches. (See ELCA, PCUSA, UCC, ECUSA etc.) Matter of fact they have come out against many US policies in the past few years. Many wars and skirmishes involve wanting power money. Overall Christianity does not want war or violence. Neither does Judaism and Islam. Overall the majority of Islam is the more moderate type (Sunni). Problem is just like in Christianity, it has been hijacked by the minority who incites and provokes violence. Stewart At 02:11 PM 1/31/2009, you wrote: Again an inability to make the necessary distinctions to successfully navagate life. The problem in the Middle East is extremeists who have hijacked religion in support of their radical agendas. Talk to any genuine religious leader and they will tell you that the extremeists have nothing to do with their religion, aften taking stands that directly oppose recognized religious teaching. Of course neocons, being extremeists themselves, will tend to congregate with other extremists. They feel a common solidarity. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
This sort of hijacking has also occurred right here at home. Recent events have given me hope that this trend is coming to an end. The current occupant strikes me as an excellent example of someone who is devout and rational at the same time. (disclaimer: I am extremely secular and poorly qualified to judge devoutness). As for the Middle East, the way to achieve what's been achieved there is not through religious zealotry, but through decades of foreign imperialism, realpolitik, and proxy warfare. In almost no time, you'll have'm clinging to their guns and bibles (qur'ans, torahs) for comfort. On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Again an inability to make the necessary distinctions to successfully navagate life. The problem in the Middle East is extremeists who have hijacked religion in support of their radical agendas. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
As for the Middle East, the way to achieve what's been achieved there is not through religious zealotry, but through decades of foreign imperialism, realpolitik, and proxy warfare. In almost no time, you'll have'm clinging to their guns and bibles (qur'ans, torahs) for comfort. Yes that too, but the question being asked was about religion. Big picture it is a big mess. Mitchell has proved his ability to navagate around such a mess when he was successful in N Ireland. Everyone had thought he was being sent on a hopeless errand. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Actually, that was the Deputy Director - the Director was a political appointment by the governor. Nothing short of going back to court, at heavy expense in time and money, could have moved him. They do not like to loose. Matthew On Jan 31, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: That happens in Europe the same as here. That is a low level Civil Servant trying to impress you with the power they do not really have but wish they do. Stewart At 11:30 AM 1/31/2009, you wrote: I am neither radical right nor left. My experience with government, both personally and as a contractor to, has not left me with a positive impression of government. My all time favorite remains being told by the highest civil servant in the NJ Dept. of Motor Vehicles The courts have their opinion, we have ours right after he refused to remove points from my record for citations the courts had found me not guilty of. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
On Jan 31, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Jordan wrote: Matthew Taylor wrote: On Jan 31, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Jordan wrote: John Emmerling wrote: Some general observations (I make some assertions without proof, feel free to provide contradictory data): 1.) Compared to other western countries, Americans are significantly more religious. Religious folk seem to see life's problems as being between themselves and God, and don't have much use for the government. BTW I don't mean this as a criticism. I don't think it's rational to view life through a God lens, or make decisions based on religious beliefs. The middle east is what you may get. Wow - for many people religion = moral code of ethics. What should inform their decisions? Either you are moral or you are not. It comes from empathy. There is even some evidence that there is a genetic element to this. Define morality then in a value neutral rational way. The rural areas of Europe do this to a far greater degree than here. Citations please. For starters, watch travel shows. Sputter. Travel shows, perhaps the ultimate in feel good vicarious fluff entertainment (right next to cooking shows [I love Good Eats]) as citations. Am I supposed to take that seriously? 3.) Americans have come to expect government initiatives to fail. They consider a career working for the government (except in the areas of law enforcement and national security) as a refuge for the incompetent. Largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. The radical right has worked for years to make people believe this. But it doesn't have to be that way. I am neither radical right nor left. My experience with government, both personally and as a contractor to, has not left me with a positive impression of government. Then Bush and the boys were successful! You make a lot of assumptions. I never worked for Bush and the boys. I spent the Bush years working for a non-profit and then a county funded community college. I spent some of the Clinton Gore years working for the Army though. The uniformed personnel were top notch, the civil servants except for the vets were scarily incompetent. Matthew * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Taxes and good life
Ah a high level civil servant being a horses butt. Yeah same story thinks they have more power than they really do. Unfortunately we seem to clone tons of those folks. Stewart At 11:05 PM 1/31/2009, you wrote: Actually, that was the Deputy Director - the Director was a political appointment by the governor. Nothing short of going back to court, at heavy expense in time and money, could have moved him. They do not like to loose. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
