Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Barry Pell AMERICA BC ... and don't forget Paul Goodman's AMERICAN
GENESIS..
Best wishes,
Wm

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Gerald Harp wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> In a message dated 1/6/99 9:20:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> >
> >  I chanced across the article below while going through
> >  old New York Times from year 1925. It suggests a different
> >  history of the American continent than is usually supposed.
>
> Thanks for posting this, Brian.  I am driven nuts by sitting here trying to
> think of the names of two books written about or by a New Zealand fellow who
> amassed considerable evidence that various ancient people, including
> Egyptians, Sumerians, and Romans, were in North America.  I think his last
> name was Feller.  A title that sticks in my mind is America BC.  However, when
> i tried to look it up at amazon.com, the search came up empty.
>
> Jerry
>
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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>
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> Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] hello (again)

[Jesse M Dolan]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:48:38 +0100 Source - Richard
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>>>
>>>That's easy for you to say, you haven't been insulted from here to
>>>next
>>>Sunday, stay out of the picture, bub!!
>>>
 -Original Message-
 From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: 04 January 1999 10:51
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] hello (again)

  -Caveat Lector-

 I think it's time to take a deep breath and stop this bickering.
>>>Come
 on guys - cool down.

>>
>>
>>
>>It's stuff like that that will keep this going on...
>>
>>
>>Jesse Dolan
>>"Insane Hippie"
>>www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/8954/index.htm
>
>Oh, i see, you have to have the last word do you. The goddamn argument
>had stopped after my message. It's stuff like what you posted that
>keeps
>things going.
>
>(by the way, i know you will accuse me of having the last word but i
>couldn't let you get away with that!!!)
>

Sorry, with the emails that I got at the time seemed to show that the
argument was still going...
sorry bout that...
you want the last word, go for it. It doesn't bother me.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

The early history of the Americas is still pretty much a mystery.  Thanks
for sharing the information, P.  It confirms what Fell and Goodman have
been arguing for quite some time..  The Americas have been visited by a
variety of ancient peoples: Libyans, Phoenicians, Romans, Greeks,
Africans, and Japanese...  (plus, the Vikings and the Celts)..

Paul Goodman goes so far as to argue that the landbridge worked in the
other direction as wellearly Americans traveled into Asia...rather
than vice versa...  The prehistoric American dates keep getting pushed
back further and further..
Best wishes,
Wm
On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> In a message dated 1/6/99 11:31:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> <<
>  Perhaps the Book of Mormon's fanciful narrative of Semites in America
>  (Lamanites and Nephites) has some basis in fact.  who knows. >>
>
> While I lived in Utah, a friend (an author of a number of books on ghost
> towns) published information about some coins purchased by someone from some
> Indians who had found them in a cave along a river.  The coins were placed in
> the museum in Salt Lake City and ascribed to the Lamanites.  I had a friend
> from the Middle East look at the pictures of them in the book.  He said one
> was Arabic and one had Cunieform writing.  I thought perhaps some Spanish
> conquistadores (some had come a good way into what is now the United States)
> had lost them there.  Prudy
>
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
> Archives Available at:
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>
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> Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

[CTRL] Paranoia Mind control

[Jesse M Dolan]

 -Caveat Lector-

Anyone else read the article in Paranoia issue 19 about Robert Naeslund
and his numerous brain
implants?

I read it and was shocked that things like that happen to civilians with
no criminal history.
I guess I forgot that I am living in a police-state world...


Jesse Dolan
Insane Hippie
www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/8954/index.htm

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Conspirators' Hierarchy: The Story of the Committee of 300 - Part 1

[Thomas, Kenneth F.]

 -Caveat Lector-

As a supplement to this, I'd like to point out that a new interview with
John Coleman appears in the latest issue of Steamshovel (#16)

http://www.umsl.edu/~skthoma

kt

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Re: [CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?

[Brian Redman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Okay, thanks for all your info on Frank Rizzo. I had
been contacted by someone of nomenclature "Frank Rizzo."
I racked my brain; I knew I'd heard the name -- but where?
I turned to this mail list for help and you all came
through. Could it be that my contact was the son of
Philadelphia's Frank Rizzo? It turned out no, he was
not. Anyway, for what it's worth, the "Frank Rizzo"
who contacted me suggested that "Drudge's blockbuster
story" due about Jan. 12 might be a release of a video
of the Brown/Goldman murders, i.e. OJ Simpson trial.
Since there was a possibilty that the name "Frank Rizzo"
was known somehow I consulted you all on this mailing
list and you've been a great help. If it had turned out
that my "Frank Rizzo" was now a Philadelphia councilman
then his hint that Drudge's "imminent story" dealt with
video of Brown/Goldman murders would have extra weight.
It turns out though he's not =the= Frank Rizzo. So
anyway, thanks everyone for your help on tracking down
the name.

Brian Redman   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.shout.net/~bigred/cn.html
Editor-in-Chief| ---Phone: 217-356-4418
Conspiracy Nation  |   "The perfect slave thinks he's free."

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Tobacco capitalists' global offensive.

[philately]

 -Caveat Lector-

From:
Vices Are Not Crimes; A Vindication of Moral Liberty  --Lysander Spooner, 1875.



...We all come into the world in ignorance of ourselves, and of everything around us. 
By a
fundamental law of our natures we are all constantly impelled by the desire of 
happiness, and the
fear of pain. But we have everything to learn, as to what will give us happiness, and 
save us from
pain. No two of us are wholly alike, either physically, mentally, or emotionally; or, 
consequently,
in our physical, mental, or emotional requirements for the acquisition of happiness, 
and the
avoidance of unhappiness. No one of us, therefore can learn this indispensable lesson 
of happiness
and unhappiness, of virtue and vice, for another. Each must learn it for himself. To 
learn it, he
must be at liberty to try all experiments that comment themselves to his judgment. 
Some of his
experiments succeed, and, because they succeed, are called virtues; others fail, and, 
because they
fail, are called vices. He gathers wisdom as much from his failures as from his 
successes; from his
so-called vices, as from his so-called virtues. Both are necessary to his acquisition 
of that
knowledge - of his own nature, and of the world around him, and of their adaptations or
non-adaptations to each other - which shall show him how happiness is acquired, and 
pain avoided.
And, unless he can be permitted to try these experiments to his own satisfaction, he 
is restrained
from the acquisition of knowledge, and, consequently, from pursuing the great purpose 
and duty of
his life.

To know what actions are virtuous, and what vicious - in other words, to know what 
actions tend, on
the whole, to happiness, and what to unhappiness - in the case of each and every man, 
in each and
all the conditions in which they may severally be placed, is the profoundest and most 
complex study
to which the greatest human mind ever has been, or ever can be, directed. It is, 
nevertheless, the
constant study to which each and every man - the humblest in intellect as well as the 
greatest - is
necessarily driven by the desires and necessities of his own existence. It is also the 
study in
which each and every person, from his cradle to his grave, must necessarily form his 
own
conclusions; because no one else knows or feels, or can know or feel, as he knows and 
feels, the
desires and necessities, the hopes, and fears, and impulses of his own nature, or the 
pressure of
his own circumstances.

It is not often possible to say of those acts that are called vices, that they really 
are vices,
except in degree. That is, it is difficult to say of any actions, or courses of 
action, that are
called vices, that they really would have been vices, if they had stopped short of a 
certain point.
The question of virtue or vice, therefore, in all such cases, is a question of 
quantity and degree,
and not of the intrinsic character of any single act, by itself. This fact adds to the 
difficulty,
not to say the impossibility, of any one's - except each individual for himself - 
drawing any
accurate line, or anything like any accurate line, between virtue and vice; that is, 
of telling
where virtue ends, and vice begins. And this is another reason why this whole question 
of virtue and
vice should be left for each person to settle for himself.

Vices are usually pleasurable, at least for the time being, and often do not disclose 
themselves as
vices, by their effects, until after they have been practiced for many years; perhaps 
for a
lifetime. To many, perhaps most, of those who practice them, they do not disclose 
themselves as
vices at all during life. Virtues, on the other hand, often appear so harsh and 
rugged, they require
the sacrifice of so much present happiness, at least, and the results, which alone 
prove them to be
virtues, are often so distant and obscure, in fact, so absolutely invisible to the 
minds of many,
especially of the young that, from the very nature of things, there can be no 
universal, or even
general, knowledge that they are virtues. In truth, the studies of profound 
philosophers have been
expended - if not wholly in vain, certainly with very small results - in efforts to 
draw the lines
between the virtues and the vices.

If, then, it became so difficult, so nearly impossible, in most cases, to determine 
what is, and
what is not, vice; and especially if it be so difficult, in nearly all cases, to 
determine where
virtue ends, and vice begins; and if these questions, which no one can really and 
truly determine
for anybody but himself, are not to be left free and open for experiment by all, each 
person is
deprived of the highest of all his rights as a human being, to wit: his right to 
inquire,
investigate, reason, try experiments, judge, and ascertain for himself, what is, to 
him, virtue, and
what is, to him, vice; in other words: what, on the whole, conduces to his happiness, 
an

Re: [CTRL] Two Cows (humor)

[philately]

 -Caveat Lector-

Gerald Harp wrote:

> In a message dated 1/5/99 2:03:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> >  > CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
>
> This single line for capitalism which makes it sound like a right smart system
> while the alternatives are described with multiple sentences and none too
> flatteringly is not well balanced.

This piece has been floating around the net for a couple of years,
and has been changed here and there, little by little, over time. It
was originally entitled "Economic & Political Theory 101" and first
appeared in the 'Etc.' column of AntiShyster ;
Volume 6, Number 3  (the one with the cover story, "Cathy O'Brien:
Sex, Lies & Mind Control"; which I know Kris has a copy of and
can verify). The above phrase is one of the parts that has been
changed; originally worded it read, "Libertarian Anarcho-Capitalism:
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull."

Considering that roughly 90% of your posts to CTRL have been in
rabid defense of Clintoon and his democratic-socialist policies, it is
not suprising that you would find Adask's piece (and his excellent
mag in general, no doubt) as being "not well balanced"; after all, he's
not a nwo lickspittle like 87% of the other newsfakers masquerading
around as the 'independent press', who do little more then serve as
mouthpieces of the establishmentarian status quo and nwo crowd.

> I  don't know what the right add-on should
> be but as it is, it doesn't account for the ruthless quality of capitalism
> which leaves 41 million Americans below the poverty line.

As MJ (and a few others) have clearly pointed out several times these
past few months: the America economy is NOT based on 'capitalism',
but is a highly regulated, heavily taxed mixed economy much closer to
bureaucratic/democratic socialism than it is free-market capitalism. Those
'ruthless' plutocrats you falsely define as 'capitalists', are closet socialist
dependent on gubbmint dole\controls and work hand in hand with their
in-the-pocket gubbmint 'represenatives' to keep it that way. As Overbeck
alluded to couple of weeks ago: there is socialism for the very rich and very
poor, and highly taxed/regulated (so-called) 'market' forces for everyone else.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Conspirators' Hierarchy: The Story of the Committee of 300 - Part 1

[philately]

 -Caveat Lector-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: FILE: Committee of 300 - Part 1
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 15 Nov 92 19:39:39 GMT

Copyright (C) 1992 by Dr. John Coleman

"Conspirators' Hierarchy: The Story of the Committee of 300", by
Dr. John Coleman, is reproduced here with the permission of the
publisher: American West Publishers.

FOREWARD

   In my career as a professional  intelligence officer, I had
many occasions to access highly classified documents, but dur-
ing service as a political science officer in the field in Angola,
West Africa, I had the opportunity to view a series of top secret
classified documents which were unusually explicit. What I saw
filled me with anger and resentment and launched me on a
course from which I have not deviated, namely to uncover what
power it is that controls and manages the British and United
States governments.
   I was thoroughly familiar with all of the well known secret
societies such as the Royal Institute for International Affairs
(RIIA), the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), the Bilder-
bergers, Trilaterals, the  Zionists, Freemasonry, Bolshevism-
Rosicrucianism and all of the spinoffs of these secret societies.
As an  intelligence officer, and even before that as a young
student in the course of my studies at the British Museum in
London, I had cut my eye teeth on all of them, plus a good
number of others with whom I imagined Americans were familiar.
   But when I came to the United States in 1969, I found that
names like the Order of St. John of Jerusalem, Club of Rome
the German Marshall Fund, the Cini Foundation, the Round
Table, the Fabianists, the Venetian Black Nobility, the Mont
Pelerin Society, Hellfire Clubs, and many others were at best
totally unknown here, or else their true functions were at best
but poorly understood, if at all.

   i

In 1969-1970 set about remedying the situation in a series
of monographs and cassette tapes. Much to my surprise I soon
found plenty of people willing to quote these names as if they
had known of them all of their writing careers, but who were not
in  the  least bit knowledgeable about the subjects,  yet quite
unwilling to state the source of their lately acquired informa-
tion. I consoled myself with the thought that imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery.
   I pursued my  investigations,  pressing  on  in  the  face of
severe risks, attacks on myself and my wife, financial losses,
continual harassment, threats and calumny, all part of a care-
fully-crafted and orchestrated program to discredit me, run by
government agents and informers, embedded in the so-called
Christian  rightwing,  the  "Identity  Movement"  and rightwing
"patriotic"  groups.  These  agents  operated, and  still operate,
under cover of strong  and fearless outspoken opposition to
Judaism their main enemy, they would have us believe. These
agent-informers are led and controlled by a group of homosexu-
als who are well-liked and well-respected by political and reli-
gious conservatives all across the United States.
   Their program of calumny, lies and hatred, disinformation
about my work, even lately attributing it to other writers, contin-
ues unabated but it has not had the desired effect. I shall carry on
with my task until I have finally ripped off the mask of the entire
secret upper-level parallel government that runs Britain and the
U.S. This book is a part of that ongoing effort.

AN OVERVIEW AND SOME CASE HISTORIES

   Certainly a fair number of us are aware that the people
running our government are not the people who are really in
control of political and economic matters, domestic and foreign.
This has led many to seek the truth in the alternative press, those
newsletter writers who, like me, have sought, but not always
found what it is that is making the United States terminally ill.
"Seek and ye shall find" has not always been the case with this
group.  What we did find was that the people walk in great
darkness, mostly not caring or bothering to find out where their
country is headed, firm in the belief that it will always be there
for them. This is the way the largest population group has been
manipulated to react, and their attitude plays right into the hands
of the secret government.
   We frequently hear about  "they " doing this, that or the other.
"They"  seem  literally  to  be  able  to  get  away  with  murder.
"They" increase taxes, send our sons and daughters to die in
wars that do not benefit our country. "They" seem above our
reach,  out of sight, frustratingly  nebulous  when  it comes  to
taking  action  against  "them."  No  one  seems  able  to  clearly
identify who "they" are. It is a situation that has pertained for
decades. During the course of this book, we shall identify the
mysterious "they" and then, after that, it is up to the people to
remedy their situation.
   On 30th April  1981, I wrote a monograph disc

[CTRL] "Dark Days" For China

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

  This is an unusual article to appear in this "China Friendly" paper.
The Chinese govt would not release this info lightly. They are notorious
liars about the state of their economy. They must be preparing for a very
difficult year.
flw

South China Morning Post

 Thursday  January 7  1999

Dark days ahead for economy, says Beijing

MARK O'NEILL in Beijing and Agencies
Beijing has given one of the most pessimistic assessments of its economic
strength, days after announcing it was the world's fastest growing major
economy.

Finance Minister Xiang Huaicheng said yesterday there was "no room for
optimism" on the economy and outlined measures designed to keep targets on
track.
Last week, the mainland announced its economy grew 7.8 per cent last year,
missing its official target of eight per cent but outstripping every other
large economy.

"The internal and external economic situation in 1999 leaves no room for
optimism," Mr Xiang said.

Weak demand and the poor performance of state-owned enterprises had negative
implications for growth.

"The Asian financial crisis is worsening and uncertainty and instability in
the world economy are increasing," Mr Xiang said.

"Our export growth this year will be low or negative. Domestically, we have
not solved the problems of over-supply, weak demand and the poor performance
of state companies. We cannot underestimate the negative impact of these on
the economy this year."

In an attempt to breathe life into the economy, more bonds will be sold and
the budget deficit expanded.

Beijing will increase treasury bond sales to domestic investors by 13 per
cent this year - to 316.5 billion yuan (HK$296.24 billion) from 280 billion
yuan. The budget deficit will widen almost 10 per cent to 105.3 billion yuan
from 96 billion yuan.
Mr Xiang's ministry has been the main department charged with firing up the
economy. It issued an extra 100 billion yuan worth of bonds last August for
spending on irrigation, river embankments, rural electrification, roads,
railways and other infrastructure.

This spending pushed up fixed-asset investment in the second half of 1998
and should add about two percentage points to GDP growth in the first half
of this year.

"The economy is still in a period of deflation and credit contraction,"
economist Fan Gang said.

"This year will be worse than last year. The [stimulus] package should work
in the first half of this year. But if it does not stimulate personal
investment, growth will slow down in the second half."

Beijing is struggling to keep the economy on track as unexpected troubles,
such as last summer's floods, place added burdens on state spending while
hitting revenue growth.

The Finance Minister said many investments, such as dyke rebuilding, would
probably generate only low returns. It also would be difficult to boost
private consumption and investment in the short term.

Mr Xiang said the Government intended to return to international capital
markets after last month's sale of US$1 billion (HK$7.74 billion) in bonds.

He indicated China would be interested in holding euros as part of its
reserves, saying it would not "place all its eggs in one basket".
China has foreign reserves of about $144 billion, the world's second
largest, believed to be in US dollars.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] Your Tax Dollars At Work

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

Your tax dollars at work (or how my impeachment "bombed.")
flw

World Telegraph
ISSUE 1322 Thursday 7 January 1999


UN agencies tell of wayward missiles
By Alan Philps, Middle East Correspondent

LAST month's British and American air strikes against Iraq destroyed an
agricultural college and a grain silo containing 2,600 tons of rice, cut off
water supplies for 300,000 people in the capital, Baghdad, and damaged a
dozen schools and hospitals, United Nations agencies have said.

In Baghdad, the agencies reported that explosions near a maternity hospital
and the Saddam Medical City, a hospital complex across the road from the old
defence ministry building, which was extensively targeted during the raids,
left windows and doors shattered, and ceiling tiles displaced. Parts of the
Health Ministry were damaged, while the gatehouse of the Labour and Social
Affairs ministry took a direct hit, injuring two guards.

The two agencies - the UN Children's Fund, Unicef, and the World Food
Programme - are involved in implementing the oil-for-food scheme, under
which the proceeds of Iraqi oil sales are used to buy food and medicine and
upgrade schools, hospitals and other infrastructure.

Unicef has asked the UN sanctions committee in New York to allow Iraq to
import water treatment material. It said a stray cruise missile hit the
Karrada district of Baghdad, rupturing a water main. In the southern city of
Basra 10 schools suffered damage to windows, doors and electrical systems.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

Those Dam Jews!

First I discover they run the media.

Then I discover they own the banksHollywood.Politics..

Now I find out they discovered America!

Next they will claiming some Jew invented Christianity!
flw

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Totem and Taboo in Canada.

[culturex]

 -Caveat Lector-

Consistent with my earlier messages on "How I learned to love the hate
laws and stop worrying" I don't think these hate laws go far enough. There
should be plain language renditions of "Totem and Taboo" in Canada. Wry
humour aside every society has a code of totem and taboo. Let's be very
open on this one to the benefit of the entire global village. Who is at
the top of Canada's totem? Who is at the bottom? Who cannot be criticized?
Who can be criticized with impunity? Indeed is there a scapegoat class
which is targeted by criticism and more (loss of career, employment,
freedom etc.) with the encouragement of the government? And how shall we
rehabilitate hate criminals given that truth is not a defense for a hate
crime as the National Post article notes? Such a restriction plays havoc
with cognitive therapies. How about conditioning therapies using cages of
rats like those in Orwell's 1984?
FWP.

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:34:19 -0500
From: C-FAR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FREE SPEECH UPDATE -- NATIONAL POST EDITORIAL -- "CAN WE TALK?"


Can we talk?  |  Lead Editorial

National Post |  January 04, 1999


Is Canada ceasing to be a country in which people can speak their minds? In
the last 10 years, political censorship has become solidly ensconced in our
legal institutions. It has reached the point that many judges and academics
have come to identify the censorship of offensive ideas as a human right of
those they offend. This ideological drift toward enforced orthodoxy took
clear form in 1990 when the Supreme Court of Canada decided R. v. Keegstra.
In that case, the court upheld a federal hate speech law mandating
imprisonment for certain individuals who "wilfully promote hatred against
any identifiable minority group." Although the court conceded that the law
was prima facie unconstitutional under the guarantee of freedom of
expression in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it was deemed acceptable
because it served such overarching government objectives as promoting
Canada's multicultural identity and demonstrating society's disdain for
hate mongering.

In 1996, the Supreme Court took the campaign for ideological conformity to
a higher level, with its decision in Attis v. Board of School Trustees. The
case centred on the activities of Malcolm Ross, a New Brunswick school
teacher who had authored various anti-Semitic publications. Despite an
evidentiary fishing expedition that went back several decades,
investigators found no evidence that Ross had conveyed his views to any of
his students. Still, a New Brunswick Board of Inquiry concluded that Ross
had indirectly produced a "poisoned environment" in the school; and it
imposed a slew of remedial measures, including the extraordinary
requirement that Ross be prevented from publishing any controversial
material on pain of losing the non-teaching position to which he would now
be relegated. Canada's highest court duly affirmed the finding of
discrimination.

The combined effect of these two decisions is profound. In defiance of a
western free speech tradition that extends from John Stuart Mill's On
Liberty through George Orwell's 1984, the court has handed government the
right to suppress unpopular opinions. The Attis decision was particularly
disturbing. Under this precedent, protection from hateful views is now
conceived as a garden variety human right -- to be read into the plethora
of generic non-discrimination provisions in our statute books at every
level of government.

Naturally, provincial human rights commissions have been eager to give
teeth to this new orthodoxy. Their most recent victim was Fredericton mayor
Brad Woodside, who was forced against his will to proclaim municipal
recognition of a Gay Pride Weekend that, in the mayor's view, would arouse
among his constituents neither pride nor gaiety. The board of inquiry that
sat in judgment of Mr. Woodside, incidentally, was composed of one man --
Brian D. Bruce -- the same one man who produced the original Attis judgment
in 1991.

Is all of this censorship really necessary to stem the spread of hate in
our society? American experience suggests it is not. In the last decade,
American courts have struck down numerous university speech codes and
municipal ordinances that enforced the strictures of political correctness.
In the United States, people are now equally free to burn flags and crosses
(though few choose to burn either). This does not mean Americans are less
hostile to hate mongering than Canadians. It simply means they embrace free
speech, the marketplace of ideas, and the belief that evil ideas are more
likely to flourish under censorship and suppression than when exposed to
the light of day.

Unfortunately, in Canada, which is already a society saturated in public
conformity, the trend is in the direction of more censorship. A November
report indicates federal justice officials are contemplating a legislati

[CTRL] Fwd: [MC] CKLN Mind Control Radio Series - 47B (the final transcript)

[RoadsEnd]

DON GILLMOR:

But you had people misusing them and overusing them, and simply not
understanding them. The people who are describing them don't have any kind
of real great understanding of how these things work.

WAYNE MORRIS:

I guess it is my concern that psychiatry as a whole has moved towards just
offering drugs as a solution, instead of investigating other ways to help
people. These drugs in themselves can have a very damaging effect on the
body and brain. I believe we have another caller.

MALE CALLER:

I have been following this mind control series from the beginning, and find
that the evidence from the survivors, and therapists and research experts
is solid proof of the existence of ritual abuse and mind control - it has
gone on, and it is still going on. Yet when the CBC aired the mini-series,
In The Sleep Room, they advertised a comedy about dysfunctional families
during that segment, in that time slot - they made a comical comment about
it, which I found very distasteful - and the drama about Ewen Cameron was
not accurate. Also on a phone-in TV show, Jane Hawtin Live, she had a
couple of doctors from Mt. Sinai talking about cloning and how it could be
beneficial. One of the doctors made a joke about multiplicity - it seems
that some of the information is getting out and some of the professionals
are not taking it seriously.

I also heard a radio commercial which poked fun at someone who had multiple
personalities and how she had to go for therapy before she could have any
serious relationship. It seems that the CKLN series has reached a lot of
people, but mainstream commercial culture is making a big joke about it.
Do you think we will have a culture that will be bent on having a split
belief system, where they make fun of schizophrenia in that manner, where
money and drugs dominate one belief system -- and true values and therapy
for MPD will be an underground belief?

WAYNE MORRIS:

I think that's what we are seeing today. Certainly in all of the
information that is coming, there is going to be backlash and that
certainly has been happening with organizations such as the False Memory
Syndrome Foundation trying to discredit any valid accounts coming forward.
In terms of the media, I think you are absolutely right. They are not
taking this seriously, they haven't taken this seriously. It's something
that should have been addressed by the professional media years ago and
they have failed to do so. They still refuse - with very few exceptions -
to look at the evidence. We have to ask the question: what are the power
relationships there, between the media and the people who are actually
performing these experiments in the government. Thank you for your comments.

FEMALE CALLER:

Thanks a lot for this series. It has really meant a lot to me to listen to
it. I'm a counsellor and I mostly work with women over the last 25 years.
One thing I would like to point out that makes me very nervous is the idea
of the Clarke Institute for Psychiatry merging with the Addiction Research
Foundation - the neanderthals at the Clarke must be rubbing their hands
together just at the thought of getting a hold of drug users. It makes me
very nervous as to what they may do insofar as continuing the electroshock
experimentation.

The other thing is one of the things I find, just in my experience, I will
speak strictly from my experiences - there seem to be quite a few parallels
with women - post partum depression - this is usually a time when a lot of
women have discovered (after the birth of their first child) that they were
sexually abused themselves and there is a real strong tie-in with post
partum depression and previous sexual abuse in the new mother. One thing
that makes me nervous for these women especially - because they have been
used a lot in the system for drug experimentation, electroshock - just
because they are depressed. It's a lot easier for the medical establishment
to drug up patients rather than to listen to them and work with them. It is
hard work.  Getting to the bottom of some of these issues doesn't seem to
be a priority - the priority seems to be "how can we get funded by a big
pharmaceutical so we can pump up the victim further to make sure they don't
have clarity of thought?"

I know of only two cases in the last thirty years that I have dealt with
personally where electroshock had any benefit whatsoever. I just want to
say that.

DON GILLMOR:

In the case of Ewen Cameron - that's a good point - because women tended to
make up a disproportionate number of the patients in that institituion.
Part of the problem was that when you had women with post partum depression
or women with post menopausal depression who were coming in - maybe we are
retreating to this now - there was little discrimination between the groups
then. So at the Allen Memorial you had alcoholics, post partum depression,
schizophrenics, major psychotics. And they were all getting essentially the
same treatment at least under C

[CTRL] Fwd: [MC] CKLN Mind Control Radio Series Tape 47A

[RoadsEnd]

CKLN 88.1 FM  Ryerson Polytechnical University  Toronto
INTERNATIONAL CONNECTION
MIND CONTROL SERIES  TAPE 47a
Host/Producer:  Wayne Morris
DON GILLMOR: author of "I Swear by Apollo"

Good morning and welcome to another International Connection. This is
actually our LAST SHOW in our radio series on mind control which has been
running almost a year now on this time slot. Today we are going to be
finishing off the series with a discussion on government and military mind
control. Last week we had a panel on the ritual abuse aspects of mind
control, and this week we are focusing on the history of government in
developing mind control. I am joined in the studio by Don Gillmor who is
the author of "I Swear By Apollo" one of the original books to come out
about Dr. Ewen Cameron and the experiments that were done at McGill
University in Montreal. We are going to be taking phone calls for this show
and you can direct comments or questions to Don or myself. We are going to
introduce what we are going to talk about.

First of all Don, I would like to get your comments about the CBC movie,
The Sleep Room.

DON GILLMOR:

i saw the second half of it, the last 2 hours which dealt with the lawsuit.
>From what I understand the first 2 hours was better, a more accurate
representation of what happened. I have heard since that they were going
more for a truth of the spirit as opposed to truth of the fact - they had
scenes in the second half that certainly didn't take place and they used
the sexier elements you need for made-for-tv (they had a young attractive
woman as Joe Rauh's assistant as opposed to an earnest enterprising young
guy as was the case with James Turner). The aspects that were the most
interesting in the television show were the fact that they showed the
futility and difficulties in taking a group of largely disenfranchised
group of people and trying to sue one government, and in this case it ended
up being two governments - just what you are up against. And how the burden
of proof is on those people. It is so difficult to prove their case - which
is to say there is no doubt that these people were damaged and I think in
the minds of most people there is no doubt that Cameron certainly
exacerbated that.

But then you go to the case of, 'well these people already had problems'.
You have then how much culpability does the government have and how much
culpability does the American government have given that they funded
$67,000 worth of an ongoing program. You end up with all these kinds of
issues - who is to blame ultimately?
I think the culpability can be spread around, but ultimately you have to
look at Cameron in this case as being the most specific cause of all these
problems.

WAYNE MORRIS:

But I would also like to put that in the context of the wider picture. We
have seen now other groups of victims of government experimentation come
forward - I am speaking of the syphilis experiments in Tuskagee and also
the radiation experiments that were exposed at the hearings in Washington,
and the Presidential apology.
It seems like this is recurring - it all seems very familiar. The larger
issue here at stake is that governments of the world should not be
experimenting on their citizens for military or intelligence or for
whatever purposes. It seems like the United States has a history of abusing
their citizens and citizens in other countries
for experimentation. I am just wondering when it is going to stop.
There has been most recently a Bill put forward by Senator John Glenn to
try to curb or end human experimentation. There is pressure from various
lobby groups. Also Bill Clinton himself sent out a Presidential Memo in
March 1997 informing all branches of government not to engage in
experimentation on humans with uninformed consent.

DON GILLMOR:

Certainly that's been a problem, it has been a problem in the past. But I
think when you look at it you have to look at the degrees of sophistication
that are taking place. Back in the fifties for example you have this
incredibly disorganized approach to mind control. The CIA essentially
trying and funding anything - anything that caught their eye. There is
another guy at McGill - Harold Prince - who was studying the Aruba Indians
in Nigeria. They gave him $17,000 just in the off chance that something
would come out of it. It was an incredibly disorganized shot-gun approach.

In the cases of say, the syphilis experiments, what you have is a paradigm.
You will always have a researcher who is ambitious enough to push the edge
of the envelope as far as ethics go. And you will always have groups who
are disenfranchised enough that they either have no power over what is
happening, or they will in fact 'volunteer'. You will get people who are
poor enough that they will take the $50 a day and go and be the
experimental subject. When you say these things have to stop, I think
that's true. It's a question of can you simply stop them by decree - I
don't think so. I think ther

Re: [CTRL] Nat'l Guard, FEMA, and Y2K!!!!

[Knight1747]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 99-01-06 13:19:57 EST, you write:

<< Planned, doubtful. BUT untilized for THEIR purposes...probably. Ever heard
of the
 UN's Global 2000 Report, overseen by Kissenger, commissioned by Jimmy Carter,
 calls for a reduction in plantary population by 80% by the year 2000. Let's
see
 that's 80% of 6 Billion, Hummm, that's 4.8 Billion dead in the next 11
and one
 half months. I will be very surprised if there is a presidential election
next
 year due to the "bug". >>

This is my belief, it wasn't a planned thing, but when they saw that it was
there they figured they could use it for their own agendas. Watch theMedia and
the Governemnt, they might create chaos/panic (y2k, panic worse then problem)
by scaring people towards the end of the year, if big enough then, the Pres
can declare Martial Law, if not, they'll have to wait for the "bug"

Nick

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.? -- 2

[Bill Kingsbury]

Many links:

"In Plain Sight"
Old World Records in Ancient America

by Gloria Farley

http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm

Title: "In Plain Sight"






"In Plain Sight" 
Old World Records in Ancient America
By


For almost fifty years Gloria Farley of Heavener, Oklahoma has researched, in the field and in the library, evidence of pre-Columbian visitors to North America. This research has shown the presence of people from such places as Scandinavia, Egypt, Iberia, and Libya in ancient times in the central portion of the United States. While much of this evidence consists of epigraphy(writing) also included are hard artifacts.
Her work started as a casual investigation into a local curiosity. This investigation turned into a fifteen year quest which ended in the recognition of the Heavener Runestone as the work of ancient Viking travelers and its protection within a state park. Evidence of other visitors also came her way. These includes petroglyphs that record their names, drawings of the ships that brought them here, artifacts they left behind, and a solar observatory that they constructed to mark the passing of the seasons.
She has gained many honors as a result of her work. She is a Fellow of the Epigraphic Society, a Fellow of the Explorers Club, and a charter member of the Oklahoma Women's Hall of Fame. 
This Web site contains selected extracts from Farley's book "In Plain Sight." This 500 page book contains 540 illustrations, 338 pieces of evidence for pre-Columbian contact, and 890 references that compare Old World examples to items found in North America. This book is a detailed account of her decades of research.
To order a copy of "In Plain Sight", send check or money order in US funds, made out to "Gloria Farley," to;
Gloria Farley
The Epigraphic Society
Box 717
Heavener, OK 74937
Price $37.00; please add Postage and Handling: $4.00 within USA, $6.50 Foreign
Book extracts; 
Chapter 1 The Reasons: An Introduction 
Chapter 2 They Came In Ships 
Chapter 3 They Signed their Names 
Chapter 4 The Anubis Caves: Discovery and Development
Chapter 9 The Oklahoma Runestones 
Chapter 11 The Coincidence of the Coins
Contact Gloria Farley
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
OTHER HOT LINKS 
Heavener High School page for Heavener Runestone 
Opich Family page for Heavener Runestone  
Rolf Nilsestuen's Kensington Runestone Page 
Alexandria Kensington Runestone Page
Kensington Runestone Museum
 Mystery Hill, New Hampshire Page
All sorts of interesting stuff from Yuri Kuchinski
Cyclone Covey's Home Page
American Epigraphics Page
 
SO JUST WHERE DID THE MELUNGEONS COME FROM?
That is a question many people would like to have the answer to. The Melungeons are a little known mixed race group(part white, part Indian, part Black) whose traditional home is Southern Appalachia. While there have been several influxes of white blood into the group, the timing of the first of these is where the mystery lies. In the late 1600's when the Europeans were "first" exploring and settling what is now the Southeastern United States, the mixed-blood Melungeons already existed and lived within a culture that was quite different than their Indian neighbors. So where did all the white blood come? No one has the answer right now, but many fingers are pointed at the pre-Columbian Mediterranean visitors whose presence here in America is documented within the pages of "In Plain Sight". Visit the following sites to find out more about this fascinating people.
Darlene's Page 
Mary Goodyear's Page 
Melungeon Research and Links 
Karen's Page 
Vern Jordan's Page 
Gowen Research Foundation 

THE OLMECS
The Olmecs were the first "high-tech" civilization in Central America. There is a great mystery concerning their attainment of this status. There is little evidence of a slow development of the skills needed to implement the grand scale civil engineering feats for which they are famous. They seemed to have obtained these skills overnight. This has led many to wonder if the Olmecs received outside technical assistance. Evidence has been found to show that people from both China and Africa reached Central America and contributed to the Olmec's rise. Visit these sites and learn more.
The African Presence in America Before Columbus 
Olmec Writing
Crystal Links page on Olmecs
Article in Sinorama Magazine on Chinese Connections
Information on Dr. Mike Xu, a leader in the research into the Chinese Connection

 
This site maintained by Jean Dupree and Bart Torbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
All material on this site is copyrighted by Gloria Farley, 1997

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Gerald Harp wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> > The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were
> >  Confederate soldiers.
>
> You're just confused.  The Confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery.

You are not confused, however... merely ignorant... If you choose to remain
ignorant, you will be stupid... I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and
assume that you were educated (or indoctrinated) in the govm't school system.. But
if you are out of school now, you should begin your real education and do some
independent study and research.

> Some understood this and other, like yourself, didn't.  The South was
> prostrate before evil.

Here's what YOU don't understand... The South wanted out of the Union because of
people who had similar notions as you expressed.  I understand that, because if
there were some practical way for me to avoid living in a close association with
folks who believe  -- notice I didn't say "think" -- as you do, I would go for it
too.

> Say it with me, "Thank you, God, for Lincoln and thank you for the civil rights
> movement of the 1950s and 1960s and thank you, Jesus, that at the price of much
> blood, freedom has won the day for the slaves and for the South."

You need to have your medication changed You are hallucinating.

Hawk

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 10:56 AM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>Hawk wrote:
>>
>>  -Caveat Lector-
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> >  -Caveat Lector-
>> >
>> > What's wrong with adopting a national energy policy?
>> >
>> > I think it's a sane thing to do, especially since the end of the
world's oil
>> > supply is looming on the millennial horizon.
>>
>> What a crock!  The world is awash with oil!  Seems like some folks once
said the
>> same thing about the demise of the world's whale-oil supply.  Central
controls
>> isn't the answer... FREEDOM to get rich by taking big chances is the
answer, just
>> as it was then.
>>
>> Hawk
>
>Freedom! I knew it all along. The only freedom you are interested in
>is
>the freedom to make money any way you can.
>
>You are a truly despicable character. Luckily you can be easily dealt
>with.
>I am working (with others on a different list) on a plan to establish
>a cap
>on wealth accumulation by individuals. The intent is to keep guys like
>you
>spinning your wheels without actually becoming dangerous through the
>accumulation of vast wealth.
>
>The one thing that all the manipulators of all modern societies have
>in common
>is owning, or working for someone who owns vast wealth. They stand in
>the way
>of human progress, health, and happiness. They have been the causes of
>war and
>poverty, and slavery all the way back to the dawn of agriculture.
>
>The rich elites are greedy, incompetent, and generally stupid when it
>comes to
>social management. They can't manage anything well for long without
>the threat
>of force. Their economic system is collapsing all around them and new
>organic
>systems will grow in their place. Capitalism will be strictly
>controlled almost
>everywhere. Free trade is being dismantled as we speak. All this
>because of
>guys like you. You were born in the wrong era.
>
>Just thought you would like to know.
>
>Have a nice day.
>
>Joshua2

And in your socialist/communist utopia there will be no elite?

Barb
>
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
>and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
>http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
>To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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>
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>

>Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Smiley: Criminalizing Homelessness

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 08:50 AM 1/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>Smiley:
>
>>What better scapegoat for society's ills than the defenseless.
>
>Of course, that's what Republicans and Libertarians do: they gain their
>popularity, as fascists always have, by stepping on the ones who cannot
>defend themselves. By passing the "blame buck" onto the defenseless, they
>figure they wont have to catch the hell they deserve for being scum!
>
>>This shit goes on all over the country.
>
>Until some homeless person with a little brains (probably a veteran)
>decides to start organizing a guerilla army.
>
>Edward   ><>

If the above-mentioned veteran possesses the energy and inclination to
organize a guerilla army, one wonders why not the wherewithal to obtain
shelter?


Barb

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men andhelpless vic

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 01:34 PM 1/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
>>Your post is exceedingly and unnecessarily cruel to those persons whose
>>feelings of moral superiority necessitate their bearing a burden of guilt
>>and forever paying penance for the actions of distant ancestors (real or
>>imagined).  It is unwise, as well as nonproductive, to interject factual
>>information into a religious conversation.
>>
>>Barb
>
>
>glad to see you back on your medication barb. the putrifaction of your
>acidic parambulations are almost legible. give my best to the m.h. workers
>at the home and a hearty "well done".
>
>grinnin'
>
>chris

Must we repeat Lesson VI - Projections/Transferance???  :-)

Barb
>
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
>and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
>http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
>To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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>
>To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Two Cows (humor)

[Che]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 08:16 PM 1/5/99 EST, Gerald Harp wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
>In a message dated 1/5/99 2:03:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>writes:
>
>> >
>>  > CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
>>  >
>
>This single line for capitalism which makes it sound like a right smart
system
>while the alternatives are described with multiple sentences and none too
>flatteringly is not well balanced.  I don't know what the right add-on should
>be but as it is,

Here's my take:

CAPITALISM (PURE & UNBRIDLED): You have two cows. You would like to sell
one and buy a bull, but your neighbor owns all the bulls and isn't selling.
 Your neighbor keeps enlarging his herd, forcing the price of milk down
until you're forced to sell your cows to your neighbor.  Then the price of
milk is raised and your only choice is to go to work for your neighbor for
substinence wages.  Eventually you find yourself living in a shack that
your neighbor owns, shopping in a store your neighbor owns, and in debt up
to your ears to your neighbor. If you think this is feudalism, remember
that you're free to leave, as long as you pay your debts.

CAPITALISM (AMERICAN STYLE): You have two cows. You fill out lots of
paperwork and go in debt to buy the equipment you need to receive USDA
certification.  You can only sell milk at a price set by an arcane
government formula based on your distance from Wisconsin.  Some of the
milk you sell is made into cheese and winds up in a government warehouse.
To compete you buy antibiotics and bovine growth hormone from a large
pharmaceutical corporation.  To enlarge your herd you buy bull sperm from
a large agribusiness.  To feed your herd you buy cattle feed from another
large corporation.  Despite your best efforts you wind up heavily indebted
to the local bank, and your kids move to the city to be something besides
dairy farmers.

CAPITALISM (REIGNED IN BY ADAM SMITH'S MYTHICAL IDEAL "INVISIBLE HAND OF
GOVERNMENT"): You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

Che


>When does the next millenium begin?

Since a millennium is 1000 years, the first millennium began at
the start of the year 1 and ended at the end of the year 1000.
The second millennium then began with the year 1001 and will
conclude at the end of the year 2000. Therefore, the next
millennium begins with the year 2001.

from: National Institute of Standards and Technology, Time and
Frequency FAQ - http://www.bldrdoc.gov/timefreq/faq/faq.htm

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Squawk's dissertation on ignorance!!

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Edward Britton wrote:

> Even so, given your provincial attitudes, I'll bet there's a home-on-wheels
> somewhere in your history.

How much is the bet?

> How cute: an urban assault vehicle, right? Great Caesar's ghost, you're
> becoming your own stereotype!

Yep idolized by millions.

> Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself?

No one at all... I provided things for people who were grateful to receive them,
and for which the compensated me.  Of course, that's a foreign concept to you.

> Man, please! You wouldn't know a rational argument if it crawled up your
> rectum and died!

That's true... My arguments originate in my brain.  You wouldn't be familiar with
that.

> No, but in typical right-wing fashion, you sure as hell implied it!

I didn't imply anything of the sort... You infered what you wanted to believe.

> As for the statement you just made about "semi-poverty," do you have even the
> slightest clue what life was like for native Americans BEFORE we came over
> here and stole the land out from under them? My God, talk about
> ignorance!!

I have a little bit of a clue, although it is not something I have devoted a lot
of time to.  I do know this... The Indians didn't own the land, and most of them
didn't even have the concept of "ownership" regarding real estate.  Its difficult
to steal something from someone who doesn't own it.  I will admit that the fellows
got a raw deal from the govm't... but who doesn't?

> Poor, poor Squawk! So very worried that someone is after his "stuff." Keep
> crapping on people you don't know, much less understand, and your fears may
> well be warranted.

I've never crapped on anyone... whether I knew them or not.  And although I do
resent having my resources extorted from me, I am not all that worried about it.
Some people give money to the Mafia as a condition of doing business... others,
such as I, give money to the govm't... Neither the govm't nor the Mafia deserve
it, and both use the threat of violence to take it... but I figure is more-or-less
a condition of doing business.  As for the silly threats about what the "pore
folks is gonna do to me," I am not in the least intimidated.  There's an old
military adage:  "If I'm in range, THEY are in range."

> Kind of hard to say: our "founding fathers" were so much into taking what wasn't
> theirs that such a noble concept was not likely to come to fruition in the minds
> of bully thieves all by itself.

So they had to be taught by the savages they were stealing from?  OK... I got it.

> Hardly quaint, unless you consider the slaughter of native Americans and
> the enslavement of a race of people as being quaint.

I hadn't thought to call the native Americans "resources," although many of them
considered each other as "resources," and did a commendable job of killing and
enslaving each other.  Some of the New Englanders tried to make slaves out of some
of the Indians, but the Indians kept running off, and proved to be sullen
servants... So then the New Englanders decided that slavery was bad... UNTIL, they
found that they could exchange rum for Negroes in Africa, and slavery suddenly
became "not so bad."  But then, you've probably heard that story.

> Perhaps we should have "borrowed" the Indian philosophy of frugal use of
> resourses as well.

Why is that?  If it is depleted, find a substitute.  I am not concerned about
"frugal use of resources."  If I own resources, and can sell them, I want to sell
to anyone who'll buy them... Its called "doing business."

> Then, maybe, we could have had both a clean environment AND a materialistic
> technology at the same time.

I'm in favor of a clean environment... Excessive development of resources usually
isn't the root cause of an unclean environment.  Sometimes, but not always.  And
besides, if you don't own the resources, what business is it of yours whether or
not the owner squanders them?

> Oh, I wish I had read this jewel first. You would have been a far more enjoyable
> target of humiliation. Keep thinking that way, Squawk, and for the pursuit of a
> "better life, you'll be living in your own filth!

Funny... your theory hasn't seemed to be right yet.  Seems as though its the
people who expect others to pay their way that usually reside in filth.  My
neighborhood's pretty clean... We have Mexicans who do the work... (Thought you'd
like that.)

Hawk

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial 

[CTRL] 100GB BUG

[Che]

 -Caveat Lector-

   EXPERTS WARN OF THREAT FROM 100GigaBurg BUG


 - Experts warned today of a new and deadly threat to our
 beleaguered civilization: the 100GB Bug.

 As most people know, McDonald's restaurant signs show the
 number of hamburgers the giant chain has sold. That number
 now stands at 99 billion burgers, or 99 Gigaburgers (GB).
 Within months or even weeks, that number will roll over to
 100GB. McDonald's signs, however, were designed years ago,
 when the prospect of selling one hundred billion hamburgers
 seemed unthinkably remote. So the signs have only two
 decimal places.

 This means that, after the sale of the 100 billionth burger,
 McDonald's signs will read "00 Billion Burgers Sold." This,
 experts predict, will convince the public that, in over
 thirty years, no McDonald's hamburgers have ever in fact
 been sold, causing a complete collapse of consumer
 confidence in McDonald's products.

 The ensuing catastrophic drop in sales is seen as almost
 certain to force the already-troubled company into
 bankruptcy. This, in turn, will push the teetering American
 economy over the brink, which, finally, will complete the
 total devastation of the global economy, ending civilization
 as we know it, and forcing us all to live on beetles.

 "The people who know -- the sign-makers -- are really scared
 of 100GB," one expert said. "I don't know about you, but I'm
 digging up a copy of THE FIELD GUIDE TO NORTH AMERICAN
 INSECTS and heading for the hills."

...author unknown

Che



>When does the next millenium begin?

Since a millennium is 1000 years, the first millennium began at
the start of the year 1 and ended at the end of the year 1000.
The second millennium then began with the year 1001 and will
conclude at the end of the year 2000. Therefore, the next
millennium begins with the year 2001.

from: National Institute of Standards and Technology, Time and
Frequency FAQ - http://www.bldrdoc.gov/timefreq/faq/faq.htm

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

[CTRL] Fw: UNDERNEWS Jan 6

[Lloyd Miller]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: The Progressive Review <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 2:09 PM
Subject: UNDERNEWS Jan 6


UNDERNEWS
The Progressive Review On-Line Report
>From Washington's Most Unofficial Source
January 6, 1998

The Progressive Review 1739 Conn. Ave. NW Washington  DC 20009 202-232-5544
Editor: Sam Smith  Fax: 202- 234-6222 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The
Progressive
Review On-Line can be found at: http://prorev.com  with over 100 articles
and
archives.

For a free trial subscription to our hard copy  edition and e-mail updates
send
your postal address  with zip code(Sorry, foreign addresses will receive
e-mail edition only). To unsubscribe, send message  with the word
'unsubscribe.'
Copyright 1998, The Progressive Review. Matter not  independently
copyrighted
may be reprinted provided  you pay TPR your normal reprint fees, if any, and
give proper credit.

Because of its volume, we can't answer all the mail  we get but post some of
the most interesting comments  at http://dejanews.com/~prorev. You can post
comments  directly here as well by signing up as a forum  member.

===

WORD

The highest form of literary subtlety, in a corrupt social order, is to tell
the plain truth-- Edward Abbey

QUESTION OF THE DAY

Why is the bribery of Olympic Committee members by those seeking to bring
its
business from abroad of so much greater interest to the media than the
bribery
of the Clinton administration by those seeking to take their business
abroad?

MEDIA QUESTIONS OF THE DAY

Why are media heads like John Hockenberry so respectful of establishment
politicians but suddenly act like hard-hitting investigative reporters when
interviewing people like Jesse Ventura? Don't they know any hard questions
to
ask of Republicans and Democrats? `

Does Reuters consider it objective reporting to write that "Jerry Brown,
California's one-time "Governor Moonbeam," a three-time U.S. presidential
candidate and a full-time national gadfly, took political wing again Monday
as
he was inaugurated mayor of Oakland?" Does Reuters have any idea of what
sort
of governor Brown actually was? Or that he got the nickname "Moonbeam" for
suggesting a satellite hookup for the state's universities of the sort now
available to every cable television consumer? Or that if Jerry Brown had
been
elected president it would be highly unlikely that we would be engaged in a
sordid Senate trial of the president?

Does the Washington Post's Jon Jeter know what the word "quixotic" means?
If so
why did he write, "Ventura's quixotic third party campaign. . . electrified
this state." (Jeter has some other odd notions; he judged a temperature that
"did not rise above zero" to be "unimaginably cold weather."

Finally, isn't it time for the mediacrats to grow up and start treating
those
in other than the two corrupt major parties as something more than barely
disguised freaks?

CITIZENSHIP QUESTIONS OF THE DAY
Asked of those seeking to become
a naturalized citizen of the US

Have you ever left the United Stats to avoid being drafted into the US Armed
Forces?

Have you ever been a prostitute or procured anyone for prostitution?

Have you ever knowingly committed any crime for which you have not been
arrested?

Do you believe in the Constitution?

[Uncovered by John McCaslin of the Washington Times]

JAY LENO SCOOPS
WASHINGTON POST,
NEW YORK TIMES
>From Jay Leno's introductory
remarks earlier this week:

An Arkansas prostitute is claiming that President Clinton is the father of
her
son and has submitted to a DNA test to prove it. And today the White House
said
it couldn't be possible. She must have just sat on Monica's dress. . . Who
do
you believe? A hooker or President Clinton? For most Americans that's a
tough
one. . . . Only President Clinton could distract people from a sex scandal
with
another sex scandal. Remember those innocent times of Monica Lewinsky? It
seems
like a hundred years ago, those innocent times we lived in back then. . .
The
White House is still trying to put a positive spin on the whole thing. Today
they said, "Hey, at least he didn't have oral sex with the woman."

PS: The Washington Times ran a story this morning, but the national nannies
are
still holding off.

DUMB SPIES
AT LARGE AGAIN

News that both the CIA and NSA used UNSCOM facilities to tap into Saddam
Hussein's secret communications facilities provides further evidence of the
dubious intelligence of the nation's intelligence agencies. As one UN
official
told the Washington Post, "The United Nations cannot be party to an
operation
to overthrow one of its member states." NBC reports that one UN official
told
it that Richard Butler, UNSCOM's chief weapons inspector, had "built himself
the world's biggest doghouse."  Not only was the US involved in a scheme
sure
to discredit the United Nations when uncovered, but so were the British,
A

Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[Bill Kingsbury]

Many related links:

http://www.hist.unt.edu/09w-ar7k.htm

Title: The Americas.







The Americas

North America


Click Epigraphy Forum to subscripe to Epigraphy-L -
   "discusion of epigraphy,  precolumbian transoceanic contact & cultural
   diffusion)"
America's Stonehenge
   "America's Stonehenge is one of the largest and possibly the oldest
   megalithic (stone-constructed) sites in North America. It has long
   presented a complicated and intriguing puzzle to archeologists,
   astronomers, and historians, and presently serves as a leisurely,
   educational tour for the whole family."
Burrow's Cave - the BCC homepage brings
   the official story and photo archive of Burrow's Cave that may contain
   evidence of a variety of ancient cultures inhabiting America.
Lost Tribes and the Moundbuilder Myth
The Israelite Homepage.
   "contends that most Indians are descended from the tribe of Gad,
   except for the Seminoles who are "Reubenites."
Mystery Hill, [Access Forbidden 980622]
   from America B.C.: Ancient Settlers in the New World. by Barry Fell,
   pen name for Dr. H. Barraclough Fell. See also a different view. [Access Forbidden 980622]
Inyo Zodiac. Dedicated to
   "preserve a site that is home to the Inyo Zodiac and a complete solar
   observatory as well. Barry [Fell] wrote about this site in ESOP
   and in Saga America." -- Rod Schmidt, Project Director
NAT-LANG (1995): Barry Fell
The Money Pit
Oak Island Treasure
   "Archaeologically, the site is a wreck, and no one with any credentials
   will touch it. Whatever story it had to tell has long been obliterated.
   Rest assured that it will continue to pop up in the news whenever
   another digger is stumping for funds..."
Oak Island and the Templars
   Has "an article by Ed Schroeder of Treasure Quest Magazine about the
   possibility that the island contains the missing treasure of the
   Templars."
The Pelli-People Gallery
   A light-hearted look at 17 ancient petroglyphic figures engaged in
   modern sports.
Sig, The Sinister Sliding Stones Studies Sig
   "A Semi - Serious Study of Sliding Stones at Racetrack Playa in Death
   Valley." See also Brown Bag Preprint List-Caltech Basic
   and  Applied Phisics Group. "They did a study on the sliding
   stones & will mail you a copy if you ask real nice." Then there is the
   Official Journal of the Cerro Gordo Native Plant Society,
   another group at the Playa.


MesoAmerica


Chichen Itza
   minimal mystery-mongering.
Crystal Skulls
The Mitchell Hedges Crystal Skull.
The International Crystal Skull Society.
Mike Beaver's Crystal Skull Resources.
L.D.S. Visitors Center
PAKAL, THE MAYA ASTRONAUT: A STUDY OF ANCIENT SPACE TRAVEL
Pre-Columbiam Diffusion [ACCESS FORBIDDEN 980622].
Mystery of the Maya
Book: The Mayan Prophecies by Maurice Cotterell and Adrian Gilbert.
   Table of Contents: Prologue. 1. The Mysterious Maya. 2. Mayan Concepts
   of Time. 3. A New Solar Astrology. 4. Maurice Cotterell in Mexico.
   5. Land of the Rattlesnake. 6. The New Fire, the Chacmools, and the
   Skull of Doom. 7. Transatlantic Traditions. 8. The Olmecs and Atlantis.
   9. The Sun, its Energy and Influences. 10. The Atlantean Cataclysm.
   Notes. Appendices by Maurice Cotterell. 1. Astrogenetics. 2a.
   Astrogenetics and the Twelve Astrological Types. 2b. A Scientific
   Rationalization of Astrology. 3. Solar Radiation and Hormone
   Production in Humans. 4. The Sunspot Cycle. 5. The Decline of the Maya.
   6. Catastrophe and Destruction. 7. Maya Numbers and Counting Systems.
   8. The Amazing Lid of Palenque. Glossary. Bibliography. Index
Lords of the Earth
Early Whites in America, and Whites in America2.
   "Dampier wrote his own account and included maps, showing that the
   voyage covered the eastern coast between Honduras and Panama. Maps
   and information are available." -Article in Athena
Wolfe, Xavier - The Return of Quetzalcoatl
Mayan Culture and UFOs.
   See the 07/30/96 entry in Current News in UFO Folklore


South America


Four Winds Society
   "offers long term training courses in Inka Shamanism, and leads
   annual expeditions."
The Mountain Institute
   Island of the Sun. As the discovery of the Andean Ice Maiden
   underscores, the high peaks were honored as some the most sacred
   places in the geography of Peru. Directed by Johan Reinhard, PhD.
   a Senior Research Fellow at The Mountain Institute, West Virginia, and
   a Research Associate of the Field Museum
South American Shamans. [ACCESS DENIED 980622].
   "has stuff about ayuaska shamans of south america,hyperreality,
   techno-shamanism(which i am) and articles from Terence Mckenna."




Click Lee H for Comments, Additions, or Corrections.
Click PreCol to go back to Pre-Columbian America - General.
Click Edge to go

[CTRL] Fwd: [priory-of-sion] Re: february release for gardner book

[RoadsEnd]

From: Stella Maris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>From: Jo Ann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>Stella,

>I assume that Gardner did the geneaology on
>this site, is this going to be in the new book?

Hmm. I am told that the de Vere lineage is extremely ancient... and when I
asked how they accessed the information this far back all I was told was
that they have resources that would astound me. I didn't ask if Gardner did
the genealogy, actually... but I'm told that the scroll that this is taken
from is 19 feet long. I'm sure Pommarede will have a glorious time tearing
it to shreds!

Anyway, the Earl Marshal eventually gave up trying to impress their
genealogy upon me, it all makes me cross-eyed after a while... I am more
concerned with what people do with the information that they have rather
than who they say the are...

>Since they are not accepting
>questions yet, maybe you can answer
>a couple I have.

I am not a spokesperson for the Dragons, but when I asked the Earl Marshal
what he would like me to keep confidential, he told me that nothing was
confidential... in any case, I will always answer direct questions... even
if people tend not to like my answers!

> Does Sarkany Rend, or the Dragon Order have members in the USA that are
>descended from the Guisnes, de Blois, Vere, Weir families that came to
America
>in the early 1600's? Or is this order only made up of Europeans?

My understanding is that the Order is mostly British based. I don't think
that there are any US members at all.

> Also, what do you think:
> Sarkeny Rend (Sargon?)
> Dragon Order(Scorpion?)

The imagery goes on and on... I don't speak Hungarian, but I've noticed
that the prefix "sar" pops up a lot in various places...

My own favourite theory is that this imagery can be connected to the time
sequences inherent in movement of the pole stars from our perspective. I've
always been attracted to terrestrial/celestial alignments, evoked by the
globes atop the pillars of Solomon. The northern shaft of the King's
Chamber of the Great Pyramid was aligned to Alpha DRACONIS... the northern
shaft of the Queen's Chamber was aligned to Kochab, which is Beta URSA
Minor, another pole star in the progression. We are coming upon the time
when the pole of the earth will be in its closest alignment to the current
pole star, Polaris... also known as Stella Maris, Star of the Sea. ;-)

> Thanks again,are there anymore goodies you can share with us?

It's probably best to ask me direct questions. I've noted that what I
consider to be essential information tends to bore the list silly!




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[CTRL] "Euro" Bound To Impact World Economies

[Brian Redman]

 -Caveat Lector-

"EURO" BOUND TO IMPACT WORLD ECONOMIES
==

(CNNS, 01/06/99) --  Several  years  ago,  East Germany re-united
with their counterpart, West Germany.  The  mighty  land  of  the
*Ale-manni*, the "All-men," had risen from their teutonic forests
once  again,  as  they  had in days of yore when they continually
plagued the  Roman  empire.   (*Decline  and  Fall  of  the Roman
Empire*, by Edward Gibbon)

In  Roman  times,   the   *Ale-manni*   were   known  as  fierce,
forest-dwelling barbarians whose harsh climate engendered warlike
tribes prone to band together and march  south,  to  plunder  the
Roman bounty. (Gibbon. Op. cit.)

In  those  times,  Britain was a Roman colony, unlike today where
Britain has aligned herself with the United States.

The spirit of  the  *Ale-manni*  seems  to  have  lived on in the
modern German nation, most notably under Adolph Hitler,  who  led
the German tribes on yet another foray of plunder and rapine from
1939 through 1945.

Since  that  time,  the teutonic hordes seem to have wised up; it
appears they now are implementing their warlike tendencies via an
economic device: the "Euro."

Don't discount the *Ale-manni*.  The Roman empire eventually fell
from the onslaughts of those "barbarians."

Modeled on the ancient Roman  empire  is  the modern "Rome on the
Potomac," Washington, D.C. It is no coincidence that the  federal
architecture is so strikingly Roman, in Washington, D.C.

And,  it  is  interesting  that  the  Federal  Reserve building's
architecture parallels that of the ancient Roman empire.

The *Ale-manni* are on  the  march.   Their weapon is the "Euro."
Their  shield  is  the  decadence  of  the  New   Roman   Empire:
Washington,  D.C.  and  her  City-States -- Chicago; Los Angeles;
London.

The "Euro,"  for  those  tuning  in  late,  is  the  new European
currency, inaugurated on January 1, 1999.   It  now  smashes  the
dominance  of  the  Federal  Reserve  monopoly  as  the worldwide
reserve currency of choice.

Rome's former colony, Great  Britain,  noticeably  is not part of
the new European currency.

There  are  now  TWO  economic  superpowers, where until recently
there had been just one.  A reincarnation of the World War II-era
Rome-Berlin Axis, in a  monetary form, suddenly gives competition
to the until-now Federal Reserve monopoly.

A strange sort  of  panic  could  lead  investors  to  flee  from
dollars, and put their money into the stock market.

In  a  report  issued  by  "Ru Mills" (pseudonym) on December 31,
1998, she quotes one of her  sources as predicting that, when the
Euro goes into effect, "kiss good-bye to  the  Federal  Reserve."
Her  source  foresees a stock market crash, but this news service
(Conspiracy Nation News  Service)  contemplates instead a "Dollar
Crash", with large sums of money fleeing to both the stock market
and to the Euro.

An article appearing  in  The  Laissez  Faire  Times supports the
contention that the  newly-inaugurated  Euro  will  give  upstart
competition  to  the  Almighty Dollar:  "The euro is just another
fiat currency,  of  course,  but  it  will  give  the dollar some
competition.  To the extent that world finance and trade comes to
be denominated in the euro instead of the dollar, it will  reduce
the  transactions  demand for the dollar, and the Federal Reserve
will  lose  some  of  its  seigniorage."   ("1999:   The  Year of
Surprises." The Laissez Faire City Times, Jan. 4, 1999)

Concurring  with  this  analysis  is  an article published in the
London Telegraph.  Their economics correspondent writes, in part:
"Currency strategists said yesterday  that  a big reallocation of
assets was under way internationally as the  euro  gained  ground
for  the  second day in a row."  ("Euro's Climb Signals Big Shift
In Assets," by Anne Segall. London Telegraph. Jan. 6, 1999)

In a memo received today from  "Ru  Mills,"  she  offers  further
insight  into  the  developing  situation.  CNNS had written her,
wondering whether the Euro could  be  seen as a shift in strategy
by the Germanic tribes.  Mills responded  with  keen  perception:
the  Hitler  scenario  is  somewhat  appropriate,  she  says, but
there are subtleties:

  RE:  Hitler  finishing  his  plan  using  the Euro.
  That  is  no  theory.   Just  subsitute the words "Germanic
  royalty" for "Hitler", and you will have the truth.

  Hitler worked for the  New  World  Order boys.  The Germans
  and  Austrians  who are behind this push to destroy the New
  World Order are the enemies of one world government.

But are the "Germanic Royalty" really such nice people, that they
merely want to offer  competition,  via  the  Euro,  and  thereby
defeat  the  tyranny  of  a One World Government?  Will they halt
their conquest when they reach  the Rubicon River?  Or will they,
imitating a long-ago adversary, Julius Caesar, cross the  Rubicon
and go on from there?

 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +

[CTRL] Fwd: Check out Maize in Pre-Columbian India

[Agent Smiley]

In a message dated 1/4/99 5:25:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, SonSun1770 writes:

> Subj: Check out Maize in Pre-Columbian India
>  Date:1/4/99 5:25:55 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From:mailto:SonSun1770">SonSun1770
>  To:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>   http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/maize.html">Click
here: Maize in Pre-Columbian India   




 http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/maize.html">Click here:
Maize in Pre-Columbian India   

Re: [CTRL] Squawk's dissertation on ignorance!!

[YnrChyldzWyld]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Edward Britton wrote:
>Even so, given your provincial attitudes, I'll bet there's a home-on-wheels
>somewhere in your history.

And, I strongly suspect, a 'little too close' relationship between first
cousins, perhaps even brother and sister, in the ancestral gene pool...
;-)


>Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself?

Or sleep with?  ;-)


>Poor, poor Squawk! So very worried that someone is after his "stuff."

One good thing about being poor...you don't lose sleep at night worrying
someone will take your 'stuff'...  ;-)


>>Personally, I think oil is more useful in my automobile than it is 6,000 feet
>>beneath the surface of the earth... So I'm all for plundering oil and
>>anything else that can make my life better.
>
>Oh, I wish I had read this jewel first. You would have been a far more
>enjoyable target of humiliation. Keep thinking that way, Squawk, and for
>the pursuit of a "better life, you'll be living in your own filth!

You also notice Squawk is so very willing to steal someone ELSE'S
resources, while worrying about preserving his own toys...

For someone so focused on what a people PRODUCE, I wonder just what
SQUAWK produces...other than a lot of hot air...


June

 ===
  The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year,
  Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear.
-- Wm. Cullen Bryant:  The Death of the Flowers
 ===
*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] More on the Concerned Christians and Others

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

A hoot, I can barely stop laughing. Very interesting also.
Om
K
-
In a message dated 1/6/99 2:54:58 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>One enterprising hotelier, a Muslim, faxed hundreds of U.S.
>church groups last year with the enticing advertisement: "How would you like
>to be staying at the Mount of Olives Hotel on the day that Christ returns?"
>

>
>It is not only Christians who are getting in on the action. At the Mount of
>Olives Hotel, which is advertising itself as the best place to be for the
>anticipated second coming, the father-and-son owners readily admit they are
>not believers.
>
>"We're not Christians, my father and I. We are not even good Muslims. I guess
>you can say we are rational materialists," said Ibrahim Dawud, 34, who grew
up
>in Detroit. "We are respectful of the various faiths because it is our bread
>and butter. Religion is our business."
>
>Like many Palestinians on the Mount of Olives, Dawud is mildly amused at the
>behavior of the evangelical Christians who bring in most of the business at
>the 60-room hotel.
>
>He and his father, Kamal, recall a British criminal lawyer who stopped taking
>an antipsychotic medication while in Jerusalem, and imagined himself to be
the
>Messiah. There was another guest, an American woman, who believed herself to
>be the Virgin Mary. She was later discovered to have a brain tumor.
>
>Then, they recall the guest in Room 317 who came downstairs screaming that he
>looked out his window and saw the face of Jesus Christ.
>
>"My father had to calm him down. He asked: 'Why are you screaming? You came
to
>the Holy Land. What did you expect to see out your window?' "

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Michael: Criminalizing Homelessness

[Agent Smiley]

 -Caveat Lector-

>
>  Edward Britton wrote:
>
>  >  This would be fine, but how would the government "know" whom to protect
>  > inasmuch as there is a significant portion of our population with no
>  > political voice.
>
>  You actually believe this stuff you say?  I don't have a "political voice,"
> but
>  the cops seem to respond when I've called them.
--
Translated: the cops in my area come running for SOME reason, therefore
everyone has some political voice.  How far from reason can you get?
--
>
>  > Therefore this governmental attribute you hold so dear becomes a defense
>  > mechanism for the elite.
>
>  Let me ask... Are you a student or graduate of Patrice LaMumba University
in
>  Moscow?
-
An avoidance of the issue in favor of McCarthyism - an attempt at character
assassination, the default of a faulty metaprogram.
-
>
>  > Hence the present chasm, in this nation, between the have's and the have-
> not's.
>
>  And in other nations, there is no such chasm, right?  Am I catching on?
--
No one said that, did they?  Shall we ignore our own problems in favor of
addressing the problems of others?
--
>
>  > A) How do the mentally impaired fall under your rubric of "reaping the
>  > net result of the choices they make"? How do those families--specifically
>  > children-- displaced by economic down-turns fall under the rubric of "net
>  > result of choice"?
>
>  Maybe they fall under the "rubric" of "chance."  We all have risks in our
> lives,
>  and sometimes things happen to us that we didn't choose... The application
> is the
>  same, however... Your bad luck is not my responsibility.
---
There seems to be very little for which you ARE  responsible.
--
>
>  > B) It is fair by nature of the fact that the aforementioned gripers reap
>  > a disproportionately large benefit from life in this society.
>
>  Oh? And I suppose wise men (and women, just to be politically correct) will
> have
>  meetings and decide what a "proportional benefit" would be?  As a matter of
> fact,
>  I think they already do... something called a graduated income tax.
>
>  > "Social Darwinism" is hardly an emotive and hardly a term that I coined.
>  > It refers to a general belief in the social equivalent of survival of the
>  > fittest. Such a doctrine is fine in feudal systems, but once a social
>  > system has been formed for the mutual benefit of all (civilization),
such
>  > doctrines become antiquated--or would if not revived by those of rightist
> bent.
>  > Choose one: feudal system or civilization (representative democracy or
>  > otherwise) and be willing to pay the price for your decision.
>
>  How about freedom?  Has that ceased to be a choice?
--
If you value your freedom at any happenstance expense of others, don't be
surprised when they come a knockin'.
--
>
>  > In this/my case, you are partially correct. I was to blame for not having
>  > adequately prepared myself financially (at nineteen, such concepts were
>  > sort of abstract :-)). My employer took it from there by downsizing me
>  > during the initial stages of Reagan's "trickle-down" economy.
>
>  Probl'y the smartest business decision he ever made...

Like many right-wingers, you love a fight more than is good for you, or us.
---
>
>  > Forgive me, Michael (actually this serves as partial re-inforcement of my
>  > point about the compassionlessness and naivete'of the right), but, again,
>  > at nineteen, I was oblivious of the need to prepare for the malevolent
>  > economics of an equally malevolent president.
>
>  and don't forget your malevolent boss... and his malevolent board of
> directors..
>  and perhaps the malevolent bankers who advised him to keep his expenses
less
> than
>  his income... Don't leave anyone out of your "victim" diatribe.
---
If there are no victims, then there are no perpetrators, right?  So why be
concerned with conspiracies at all?
--
>
>  > This is the key deficiency in the understanding of those of rightist
>  > affiliation: a great many people fall prey to circumstances beyond their
>  > control, and well outside the realm of choice. One can stretch the
>  > philosophy of "blame the victim" only so far before the argument becomes
>  > rediculous.
>
>  What if we don't "blame anybody," and just let the chips fall where they
may?
>   My
>  bad luck doesn't constitute a claim on your bank account.
>
>  > I am fearful of being run over by a system in which I have no
> representation. I
>  > guess it's a matter of choosing who and by what means should I be run
over.
--

Re: [CTRL] Nurev: Criminalizing Homelessness

[Agent Smiley]

 -Caveat Lector-

>
>  Edward Britton wrote:
>
>  >
>  > But Nurev, this is entirely too pessimistic. One person's failed society
>  > is another's new beginning. A little barbequed pig is a good thing, now
>  > and then :-)
>
>  You know, I didn't think this kind of pathetic musing took place outside of
>  Academia
>
>  Hawk

Should we be talking down to you?

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES

[Howard R. Davis III]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> In a message dated 1/5/99 9:17:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> <<
>  What a crock!  The world is awash with oil!  Seems like some folks once said
> the
>  same thing about the demise of the world's whale-oil supply.  Central
> controls
>  isn't the answer... FREEDOM to get rich by taking big chances is the answer,
> just
>  as it was then. >>
>
> You're right.  But if we actually had a sane energy policy, it could move us
> away from oil into solar.  Not that it's likely to do so, since freedom to get
> rich (now that's a goal) is the way it's been for quite some time, and they
> haven't figured out how to regulate old Sol just yet.  Prudy
>

   If someone could figure out a way to get a bit more energy out of a
solar cell or a better method of storing energy then the batteries we
now use, they could make a fortune. And, any one who invested in them
would also. There is no need to regulate the sun for that purpose.

best wishes, Howard Davis

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Squawk re-writes American history!!

[YnrChyldzWyld]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote:
>Do you have some fascination with exposing your ignorance?  Just for the record, I
>live in a neighborhood of homes that range in price from $250,000 and up... My
>home is valued right a half a million.  I drive a $34,000 pick-up, and my wife
>drives a Mercedes.

Just goes to show that white trash is still white trash, irregardless of
their tax bracket...



>> And your point is what? Do you suggest that an agrarian economy in
>> balance with it's environment is, somehow, primitive by comparison to the
>> destructive and metastatic (that means cancerous for you right-wingers
>> out there) production/technology-centered system of Europeans?
>
>Never said anything about "better" or "worse," and only mentioned that the Indians
>were minimal producers of anything, and lived in a constant state of semi-poverty.

'Semi-poverty' according to whose standard?  Even the agrarian Indians
for the most part enjoyed a much higher standard of living than most
Europeansand the Inca, Maya, and Toltecs obviously enjoyed substantial
wealth...

As for 'producing anything', when I pointed out the eastern tribes
extensive mound-building, you claimed you never claimed they never
produced anything (at least, anything 'substantial)...

Well, if the eastern mound-builders don't fit your arbitrary bill, what
about the cities and the intricate canal networks the Maya and Inca
created...what about the extensive irrigation system of the HoHoKums in
Arizona?  A system that was only discovered when those of European
descent decided to build an irrigation system in the early part of this
century...and discovered the remains of the Indian system in the very
area they were digging...


>> You'll get no break from me, oh proud-to-be-ignorant one. The fact that
>> we "borrowed" the structure of our Constitution from the Iroquois
>> Republic (confederacy of a loose sort) is a matter of historical record.
>
>Neat!  I'm sure that the Founding Fathers would never have come up with the idea
>of a loose confederacy without the Iroqois Sure...

Actually, they probably wouldn't have...there had been nothing like it
before, and the Iroquois system was the only thing they had to go by...


>> Initially, they were aristocrats in search of resources to plunder.
>
>So they came over here, leaving their palatial homes in Europe, to live in crude
>huts and exploit the Indians of their goods Right?

Right.


>Or were they looking for
>opportunity to build something better than they had (socially, materially, and
>economically) in the "old country?"

The initial immigrants in the 1600s either came here to plunder, with
plans to return to England in a few years with a vast bank account...or
they were religious fanatics looking to build their own version/vision of
'heaven on earth' in a new land...

Later, in the 1700s, you had a goodly number of people choosing to be
sent to the Americas in lieu of a stint in pauper's prison...or perhaps
even a stint in Newgate...again, these were NOT bucolic farmers coming
here...


June

 ===
  The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year,
  Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear.
-- Wm. Cullen Bryant:  The Death of the Flowers
 ===
*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
===

Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --

[YnrChyldzWyld]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote:
>> Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you
>> think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish?
>
>Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught
>them?

Some Europeans did...but not the Pilgrims, who had spent the previous 12
or so years living a comfortable middleclass existence in Holland...nor
the Roanoke colonists, who for the most part were upper-middleclass and
lower aristocratics intent on 'making a quick buck' and going back to
England with a lot of money...

The Pilgrims had a real problem trying to grow things in a climate they
had not prepared for...remember, they HAD planned to go to Virginia, but
ended up in Massachusetts due to faulty navigation...

It's a MATTER OR RECORD that by their 3rd year in Massachusetts, they
were starving, and it was only from the native population that they
learned the techniques on WHAT to grow that would survive and thrive, and
be able to be 'put up' to get them thru the winter...

It is also a MATTER OF RECORD that the Indian tribes of the Northeast
lived in eastablished communities devoted to farming, NOT 'foraging and
gathering'...


>> The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent
>> on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional
>> 'gathering'...just like the European settlers...
>
>But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than
>handcrafts.

Now you're changing your tune...your initial objection was that all
Indians just got by with foraging and gathering, and didn't farm...when
that fallacy was pointed out, you now decide that 'manufacturing' is to
be the new standard...

The Inca, Mayans, and Toltecs seem to have been able to 'manufacture'
some pretty sophisticated objects...


>> These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum,
>> and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own
>> Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people...
>
>Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy?

Again, it's a MATTER OF RECORD.


>> >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited
>> >by starving people...
>>
>> The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians
>> when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved,
>> and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food,
>> what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive...
>
>I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and
>fishers

I never said any such thing...I said the INDIANS were farmers and
fishers...the Europeans who first came here in the 1600s were for the
most part pretty middleclass, more merchants than farmers...

Not many Europeans, English especially, were hunters or fishers, since
hunting and fishing was restricted to the aristocracy, and any lesser
personage daring to do so would have been arrested as a poacher and
recieved a stiff sentence.



June

 ===
  The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year,
  Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear.
-- Wm. Cullen Bryant:  The Death of the Flowers
 ===
*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
==

[CTRL] Fwd: Dick Morris about Clinton and TWA 800, OKC bombing etc

[RoadsEnd]

This is from the Washington Post (which in itself I distrust) discussing
a book by Dick Morris (which might be hiding some things - I do not
trust his recent commentary and some of it is really strange. But here
is something for what it is worth.

I got this through Wayne Mann's The Political Digest. A text search for
mentions of TWA turned this up.

I believe the meeting the night of the crash, July 17, 1996 was
mentioned in 1996 in a New York Times fr on Thursday nights.

The version of what happened there may be a deliberate leak and may be a
half truth. Here in this column we do not hear about July 17, 1996 but
rather August 1 - which was a Thursday, wasn't it?

Date: 12-22-98 (16:37)Number: 466517 of 469239 (Refer# NONE)
  To: SAMMY FINKELMAN
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED], WAYNE MANN
Subj: TPD 4-1222984
Read: NOStatus: RECEIVER ONLY
Conf: email-1 (1099) Read Type: TEXT SCAN (+)

[15]
New Morris Book Portrays How Polls, Clinton Policy Intersected
By John F. Harris
Washington Post Staff Writer


Tuesday, December 22, 1998; Page A18  Once a week, every Wednesday
night, the group huddled in the Yellow Oval Room of the White House
residence. The discussion grazed across an ever-changing buffet of
subjects high and low: welfare andimmigration, O.J. Simpson and Paula
Jones.

But the real agenda was always centered on the man sitting at the center
in a large stuffed chair: President Clinton and his plans for winning a
second term.

The group of political consultants and senior White House staff, joined
by Vice President Gore and a handful of Cabinet members, was essentially
the war council for the 1996 campaign. Two years later, a window has
opened on that campaign and the techniques of its erratic chief
strategist Dick Morris, thanks to a new book by Morris that reprints 18
months of the agendas he produced for the weekly strategy sessions.

The agendas reflect Morris's polling-based approach to politics and
suggest the degree to which Clinton's policy initiatives on such
subjects as crime, immigration and welfare were influenced by public
opinion surveys and other political judgments about how best to position
the president against the Republicans.

The documents also reveal how Clinton's advisers weighed thepolitical
implications of even the most tragic events, and assessed ways in which
he might gain side benefits from his presidential duties.

On April 27, 1995 -- eight days after the Oklahoma City bombing --
Morris directed a discussion of how to reap political advantage from the
aftermath, according to the agenda for the date. As the consultant saw
it, Clinton's handling of the tragedy would lead to "temporary gain:
boost in ratings," and how he could create "a permanent possible gain:
sets up Extremist Issue vs. Republicans." ||  ||  ||
  \/  \/  \/
On Aug. 1, 1996, among topics at the weekly meeting was how well Clinton
had responded to the mid-air explosion of TWA Flight 800. Polling data
showed that 84 percent of Americans had heard about Clinton's meeting
with families of the victims. Fifty percent said the emotional meeting
made them more likely to vote for Clinton over Robert J. Dole.

The agendas are printed as an appendix to a newly released edition of
"Behind the Oval Office," the campaign memoir that Morrispublished early
last year. Two years after the election, the agendas -- which were once
so sensitive that Gore had to return his copy at the end of each session
-- are noteworthy now primarily as historical documents.

They also highlight an irony that echoes through Clinton's presidency to
this day. At the very time that he was working somethodically to rebuild
his presidency -- polling on every event or issue thatmight conceivably
affect his prospects -- he was carrying on a relationship with Monica S.
Lewinsky that would later help opponents tear him down.

Senior White House officials said yesterday they had not reviewed
Morris's newbook but said they had no reason to suspect that the agendas
he printed were not authentic. They cautioned, however, that the agendas
that Morris presented at the weekly political meetings -- before he left
the campaign in August 1996 -- often reflected his own interests and
obsessions more than Clinton's.

Even Morris, who said he published the agendas because they were
"historical documents," emphasized: "I'm the author of the agendas, not
Clinton."

Yet reading through the 200 pages of agendas -- and comparing them to
Clinton's schedule and statements in 1995 and 1996 -- make clear that
politics and policy became fused in Clinton's White House to a greater
degree than had been demonstrated.

On April 24, 1996, polling data presented at the weekly meeting showed
that aninitiative to crack down on "deadbeat dads" who don't pay child
support would make 80 percent of respondents more likely to vote for
Clinton. Later that spring, he announced new regulations re

[CTRL] Fwd: [priory-of-sion] R. A. U. Guelfi Comments on Bloodline

[RoadsEnd]

As always,  . . .

Om
K
-



From: "qq qv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


qq qv wrote:
>
> Dear Count -- hope this reaches you before you leave again for Eastern
Europe.  Wonder if you could comment for me and for the mailing-list on Adrian
Gilbert's ideas about the location of Ur and the proper setting for Abraham.



R.A.U. Guelfi
Here are your answers. I will be leaving for Europe on the 8th of
January, but I will have my e-mail forwarded to me.



qqqv
> The comment about the timeframe being off may just be confusion.  You never
said Abraham lived 5,500 years ago, you said the beginning of the bloodline
was to be found ca. 3,500 bce, and now you've told us that you see adapa as
the progenitor of the bloodline.


R.A.U.  Guelfi
Actually Abram was born in approx. 2100 b.c.; though the Bloodline
includes him, it does not by any means begin with him. I did state that
Adapa could be viewed as one of the Bloodline's progenitors, as he was
the homo-sapien-sapien known to some as Adam. There is much more to this
than just Adapa. That is why I stated that though he is a progenitor,
the granting of human Kingship from above should be explored. For though
today's members of the Bloodline can count Adapa as one of their
progenitors, the authority, position, and relevance of the Kings was
 from above. I have continued to stress that you should search for the
origin of human Kingship, as authorized by the gods, and through their
lineage. That is the all important link. I can understand where there is
much confusion. There are many conflicting dates in the books of which
you refer. Also, many authors and scholars tend to confuse the names of
various men and gods as they have passed from one civilization to
another.

I hope that I have helped you in your search.

Regards,

Ct. Roman A.U. Guelfi
Commandeur du Order de Sion
Magister Templi du Internacionale
Order du Temple de Solomon
A.O.



LookSmart … or keep looking.
http://www.looksmart.com


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Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Gerald Harp wrote:

> You don't seem to understand much about human nature.  Slavery was not just an
> economic issue. It was a way of life and cheap self esteem.  It was the dark
> pleasure of having absolute power over others.  Slavery had deeply corrupted the
> South. To think that the results of slavery were typically benign or even
> neutral is
> fantasy.  It is also naive to think that the slave masters would ever have
> voluntarily given up their corrupt power.  Don't just focus  on  the shallow
> economics oriented histories, consider and read about the social/psychological
> realities.

As one who has devoted the major portion of his life studying "human nature" and
"morals" and "political/social" philosophies.. I have to say this... The above
falls properly into the realm of "psycho-babble."  Those who fall for it could
blame it on the mis-education system, but if they've been out of school for more
than two or three years, they should have learned better.

Hawk

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fwd: MORE HUBBELL DOCS AT DOJ FOUND!

[RoadsEnd]

MORE HUBBELL DOCS AT DOJ FOUND!
===
The Department of Justice
Washington, D.C.

DOJ officials have notified SOFTWAR that additional documents
concerning Webster Hubbell have been discovered.  The materials
cover Mr. Hubbell's activities in the Clinton Chinagate scandal.

DOJ, however, wants to charge a "fee" based on commercial rates
prior to release of the documents.  Although, the amount ($57)
is small - accepting the "commercial" rate would allow DOJ to charge
SOFTWAR thousands of dollars for additional materials that they
give free to other media outlets such as CNN, MSNBC and the
Washington Post.

The use of outrageous fees is one way for the Government to kill
Freedom of Information Requests.

TOM BROKAW - SHOW ME YOUR LETTER

SOFTWAR is appealing the decision.  One reason cited is that the
CIA currently recognizes SOFTWAR as a "media" source in writing.
The CIA, Dept. of Defense and the Dept. of Commerce all have
recognized SOFTWAR in writing.

PHOENIX MISSILE SEES FIRST ACTION
=
Iraq - The Gulf
The AIM-54 Phoenix missile was used for the first time in anger
against a flight of two Iraqi MiGs.  An F-14 Tomcat from the
U.S.S. Carl Vinson fired a single AIM-54 Phoenix from extreme
range against a pair of Iraqi MiGs that flew south of the
"no-fly-zone".  The Phoenix chased one MiG until the Iraqi
fighter ran out of fuel and crashed.  The MiG was initially
reported as a MiG-25 FOXBAT but follow up photo recon by F-14s
over the crash site show it was a MiG-23 Flogger.

Ironically, the Clinton administration intends to retire
the F-14 Tomcat by 2002 - along with the ultra-long range
Phoenix missile.

BUSY SIGNAL
===
Washington - The Pentagon
The U.S. Navy is too busy to answer Congressional requests for
information on the Russian missile fiasco.  Russian missile
maker Zvezda claims that they have won the U.S. Navy super-sonic
target drone contract.  The Navy says they will not issue a
request for proposal (RFP) from contractors until May, 1999.

The Navy claimed in a letter to Congress that they ran out of
older Talos missile to convert into target drones.  The maker of
the Talos conversion says the Navy didn't buy the last 30
missiles which are still sitting in a warehouse.

The Russian defense ministry says they have canceled the deal
over Russian national security concerns.  The Russians have
finally sent their Ambassador back to Washington after
withdrawing him and his London counterpart in protest over
"Desert Fox".

FIN

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775
Charles R. Smith
SOFTWAR http://www.softwar.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Pcyphered SIGNATURE:
BA415D2325CE7F092965900D0F48104EE034EF1EF0D39B940F4CECDA78578BE5
78AEF2F03D76E6C774B6A062AE6C5E77EE75771302C33B23FB6F26A26883
0EF423AD837F349D

SOFTWAR EMAIL NEWSLETTER01/06/99
***  to unsubscribe reply with "unsubscribe" as subject***

Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[YnrChyldzWyld]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Gerald Harp wrote:
>Thanks for posting this, Brian.  I am driven nuts by sitting here trying to
>think of the names of two books written about or by a New Zealand fellow who
>amassed considerable evidence that various ancient people, including
>Egyptians, Sumerians, and Romans, were in North America.  I think his last
>name was Feller.  A title that sticks in my mind is America BC.  However, when
>i tried to look it up at amazon.com, the search came up empty.

As has been mentioned, 'America BC' was written by Barry Fell -- don't
think he's from NZ, tho, cuz he's often a guest on 'The Shepherd's
Chapel' out of Arkansas...they have it for sale at $12, plus a handful of
books by other authors on the same topic...

Shepherd's Chapel address is PO Box 416, Gravette Arkansas, 72736, or you
can call 1-800-643-4645 to place an order or request a list of their
books and tapes...


June

 ===
  The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year,
  Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear.
-- Wm. Cullen Bryant:  The Death of the Flowers
 ===
*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fw: NBC: UNSCOM linked to U.S. espionage, Annan very upset and investigating ties

[Lloyd Miller]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: Martin H. Katchen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Lee Markland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:29 AM
Subject: Fw: NBC: UNSCOM linked to U.S. espionage, Annan very upset and
investigating ties



-Original Message-
From: Bill Nalty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:54 PM
Subject: CAS: NBC: UNSCOM linked to U.S. espionage, Annan very upset and
investigating ties


>http://www.msnbc.com/news/229398.asp
>
>UNSCOM linked to U.S. espionage
>
>U.S. used U.N. facilities to eavesdrop on Saddam,
>sources tell NBC News;
>
>U.N.’s Annan ‘very upset’ and investigating ties
>
>MSNBC
>WASHINGTON, Jan. 6 —  U.S. intelligence agencies used U.N. arms
>inspectors’ facilities to tap into the most sensitive communications of
>Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and his colleagues in an effort to topple
>his regime, several sources tell NBC News. Other sources confirmed that
>U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan is investigating the relationship
>between U.N. weapons inspectors and two U.S. intelligence agencies — the
>CIA and the National Security Agency — as first reported in the
>Washington Post in its Wednesday edition.
>
>   THE PRIMARY FOCUS of the Annan investigation, which began in
>November, is a purported eavesdropping capability built into the network
>of the U.N. Special Commission, known as UNSCOM, the agency in charge of
>eliminating Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, two advisers to Annan
>told NBC News. UNSCOM uses 27 radio towers throughout Iraq to relay
>video from 211 monitoring sites and Annan wants to know if the towers
>were used to intercept Iraqi communications and to relay them to U.S.
>intelligence.
>   Eighteen of the 27 towers are in Baghdad and are ideally located
>for eavesdropping on Saddam’s office, said one adviser.
>   “We believe the intelligence operations is ongoing and that even
>with UNSCOM inspectors out of Iraq, it is possible it is still operating
>today,” said one adviser.
>   The two advisers, who spoke to NBC on condition of anonymity,
>said that Annan was “very upset” and that the U.N. chief weapons
>inspector Richard Butler “has built himself the world’s biggest
>doghouse.” U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan
>   Annan’s office believes the operation
>began during the tenure of Butler’s predecessor, Rolf Ekeus, now the
>Swedish ambassador to the United States. According to Annan confidants
>quoted by the Post, Butler denied the reports of eavesdropping when
>questioned by the secretary general.
>   One adviser said the operation, if confirmed, would permit Iraq
>to claim again that UNSCOM is a nest of spies.
>
>   The future of UNSCOM has been in doubt ever since the inspectors
>left Iraq shortly before the U.S. and British airstrikes against Iraq
>Dec. 16-19 to punish Iraq for not complying with arms inspectors.
>   The arms inspectors accuse Baghdad of blocking their efforts and
>Iraq has in turn repeatedly accused UNSCOM officials of espionage.
>
>LISTENING TO SADDAM
>   According to NBC sources, the groundwork was laid for the U.S.
>intelligence agencies to spy on Iraq in 1993, when former UNSCOM chief
>Ekeus sought the United States help in gathering intelligence in order
>to locate Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. At first, CIA officials
>insisted they “take over and direct” the operation, but UNSCOM refused
>and instead sought assistance from Great Britian, Australia and Israel,
>the sources said. A year later, the U.S. agreed to cooperate with
>UNSCOM.
>   In March of 1998, UNSCOM achieved what a source described as “the
>greatest intelligence breakthrough since the end of the cold war,”
>allowing it to tap directly into Saddam’s radio telephone systems and
>listen not only to details of his weapons systems, but private insights
>into the leadership structure of his regime.
>   The sources report that when the United States learned of the
>development, it tried to take over the operation and UNSCOM resisted. In
>fact, Washington was prepared to override UNSCOM and launch its own
>communications intercept satellite in August, but failed when the Titan
>IV rocket carrying the spy satellite blew up on launch.
>   In addition to the eavesdropping, U.S. intelligence agencies also
>used UNSCOM information and monitoring equipment to target Iraqi sites
>during the U.S.-British airstrikes last month, the sources said. In some
>cases, the TV monitors provided live pictures to offices in the United
>States, allowing the agencies to watch the sites being destroyed “live”
>on TV.
>   U.S. officials confirm that the Washington Post had some of the
>story several months ago, but was persuaded not to run it for national
>security reasons by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, National
>Security Adviser Sandy Berger and CIA Director George Tenet.
>
>UNCERTAIN FUTURE FOR UNSCOM
>   UNSCOM chief Butler 

Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --

[Bill Kingsbury]

 -Caveat Lector-

   from:  http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/canyon.txt

 Archeological Coverups?

   by David Hatcher Childress
  
   Originally placed on the KeelyNet BBS on May 8, 1993 as CANYON.ASC
   from NEXUS New Times - Volume 2, Number 13
 Published in Australia (soon to be in the USA)
  
  The following is   an  intriguing  article  entitled  "Archeological
  Coverups", by David Hatcher Childress  in  the above NEXUS magazine.
  Following that is  a  newspaper  article  from  a   1909   newspaper
  indicating a bizarre suppressed find in the Grand Canyon area.

  It indicates either  a  hoax  published  at  the  time  OR  that the
  Smithsonian and/or the government  is  covering  up  details of past
  archeological discoveries that  would rock current understanding  of
  the past.

  Despite KeelyNet being primarily a science based board, this article
  intrigues us because of the similarity in information suppression to
  "protect the people"this  would  appear  to be the reason WHY we
  don't have working free energy and  anti-grav  devices  as  well  as
  absolute cures for most terminal diseases.

  If, after reading the article and the attached newspaper  file,  you
  decide to investigate  the matter further, we here at KeelyNet would
  appreciate you sharing your findings with either/or Mr. Childress at
  the World Explorers Club or us here at KeelyNet.  Thanks...>>> Jerry
  


 Archeological Coverups?
   by David Hatcher Childress

  World Explorers Club
 403 Kemp Street
Kempton, Illinois 60946-0074 USA
  Tel : (815) 253-6390
  FAX : (815) 253-6300

  Most of us are familiar with the last  scene  in the popular Indiana
  Jones archeological adventure film RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK in which
  an important historical  artefact,  the Ark of the Covenant from the
  Temple in Jerusalem, is locked  in  a  crate  and  put  in  a  giant
  warehouse, never to  be seen again, thus ensuring  that  no  history
  books will have  to  be rewritten and no history professor will have
  to revise the lecture that he has  been  giving  for  the last forty
  years.

  While the film was fiction, the scene in which an important  ancient
  relic is buried in a warehouse is uncomfortably close to reality for
  many researchers.  To   those   who   investigate   allegations   of
  archaeological cover-ups, there are  disturbing indications that the
  most important archaeological  institute in the United  States,  the
  Smithsonian Institute, an   independent  federal  agency,  has  been
  actively suppressing some  of the  most  interesting  and  important
  archaeological discoveries made in the Americas.

  The Vatican has been long accused of keeping artefacts  and  ancient
  books in their  vast  cellars,  without  allowing  the outside world
  access to them.  These secret treasures,  often  of  a controversial
  historical or religious  nature,  are  allegedly suppressed  by  the
  Catholic Church because  they might damage the church's credibility,
  or perhaps cast their official texts  in  doubt.   Sadly,  there  is
  overwhelming evidence that something very similar is  happening with
  the Smithsonian Institution.

  The cover-up and  alleged  suppression  of  archaeological  evidence
  began in late 1881 when John Wesley Powell, the geologist famous for
  exploring the Grand Canyon, appointed  Cyrus  Thomas as the director
  of the Eastern  Mound  Division  of  the  Smithsonian  Institution's
  Bureau of Ethnology.

  When Thomas came to the Bureau of Ethnology he was a

   "pronounced believer in the existence of a race of Mound Builders,
  distinct from the American Indians."

  However, John Wesley  Powell,  the   director   of   the  Bureau  of
  Ethnology, a very sympathetic man toward the American  Indians,  had
  lived with the  peaceful  Winnebago  Indians  of  Wisconsin for many
  years as a  youth  and  felt that  American  Indians  were  unfairly
  thought of as primitive and savage.

  The Smithsonian began to promote the idea that Native  Americans, at
  that time being exterminated in the Indian Wars, were descended from
  advanced civilisations and were worthy of respect and protection.

  They also began a program of suppressing any archaeological evidence
  that lent credence to the school of thought known as Diffusionism, a
  school which believes   that   throughout  history  there  has  been
  widespread dispersion of culture  and  civilisation  via  contact by
  ship and major trade routes.

  The Smithsonian opted   for   

Re: [CTRL] Michael: Criminalizing Homelessness

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Edward Britton wrote:

>  This would be fine, but how would the government "know" whom to protect
> inasmuch as there is a significant portion of our population with no
> political voice.

You actually believe this stuff you say?  I don't have a "political voice," but
the cops seem to respond when I've called them.

> Therefore this governmental attribute you hold so dear becomes a defense
> mechanism for the elite.

Let me ask... Are you a student or graduate of Patrice LaMumba University in
Moscow?

> Hence the present chasm, in this nation, between the have's and the have-not's.

And in other nations, there is no such chasm, right?  Am I catching on?

> A) How do the mentally impaired fall under your rubric of "reaping the
> net result of the choices they make"? How do those families--specifically
> children-- displaced by economic down-turns fall under the rubric of "net
> result of choice"?

Maybe they fall under the "rubric" of "chance."  We all have risks in our lives,
and sometimes things happen to us that we didn't choose... The application is the
same, however... Your bad luck is not my responsibility.

> B) It is fair by nature of the fact that the aforementioned gripers reap
> a disproportionately large benefit from life in this society.

Oh? And I suppose wise men (and women, just to be politically correct) will have
meetings and decide what a "proportional benefit" would be?  As a matter of fact,
I think they already do... something called a graduated income tax.

> "Social Darwinism" is hardly an emotive and hardly a term that I coined.
> It refers to a general belief in the social equivalent of survival of the
> fittest. Such a doctrine is fine in feudal systems, but once a social
> system has been formed for the mutual benefit of all (civilization),  such
> doctrines become antiquated--or would if not revived by those of rightist bent.
> Choose one: feudal system or civilization (representative democracy or
> otherwise) and be willing to pay the price for your decision.

How about freedom?  Has that ceased to be a choice?

> In this/my case, you are partially correct. I was to blame for not having
> adequately prepared myself financially (at nineteen, such concepts were
> sort of abstract :-)). My employer took it from there by downsizing me
> during the initial stages of Reagan's "trickle-down" economy.

Probl'y the smartest business decision he ever made...

> Forgive me, Michael (actually this serves as partial re-inforcement of my
> point about the compassionlessness and naivete'of the right), but, again,
> at nineteen, I was oblivious of the need to prepare for the malevolent
> economics of an equally malevolent president.

and don't forget your malevolent boss... and his malevolent board of directors..
and perhaps the malevolent bankers who advised him to keep his expenses less than
his income... Don't leave anyone out of your "victim" diatribe.

> This is the key deficiency in the understanding of those of rightist
> affiliation: a great many people fall prey to circumstances beyond their
> control, and well outside the realm of choice. One can stretch the
> philosophy of "blame the victim" only so far before the argument becomes
> rediculous.

What if we don't "blame anybody," and just let the chips fall where they may?  My
bad luck doesn't constitute a claim on your bank account.

> I am fearful of being run over by a system in which I have no representation. I
> guess it's a matter of choosing who and by what means should I be run over.

That's the only smart thing you've said Good Boy!

Hawk

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[CTRL] Israel to deport more U.S. doomsday suspects (CNN)

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Israel to deport more U.S. doomsday suspects

January 6, 1999
Web posted at: 11:45 a.m. EST (1645 GMT)

Alleged cultists say group's leader is in London

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel issued deportation orders on Wednesday for three
alleged members of a U.S. doomsday cult, raising to 14 the total ordered out
on suspicion of planning a shootout with police ahead of the millennium in
hopes of bringing about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

It was unclear when all 14 -- eight adults and six children - - would be
deported from Israel.

Deportation orders were issued Monday against 11 other members of the
Denver-based Concerned Christians group.

The three men ordered deported Wednesday have denied they planned any
violence. John Bayles of Denver; Terry Smith of Eagle, Colorado; and Eric
Malesic of Westminster, Colorado, had been held an additional two days so
authorities could question them for information about other group members in
Israel and elsewhere.


Other group members in Greece?

As they await deportation, the group wants to go to Greece, rather than return
to the United States, their lawyer said in Jerusalem.

Eran Avital said they choose Greece because other members of Concerned
Christians are already there and because they believe the United States will
be destroyed soon.

According to Avital, they also said Monte Kim Miller, the group's leader, was
in London.

Miller and several dozen followers have not been seen since selling their
homes and belongings in the Denver area last fall. Miller told his followers
that he will die in the streets of Jerusalem in December 1999 and be
resurrected three days later.


Cult members had rented two homes in Jerusalem suburbs

The 14 suspected cultists being deported by Israel arrived there in September
and rented two homes in the Jerusalem suburbs of Mevasseret Zion and Moza.
Israeli police watched the homes for several weeks and raided them Sunday,
detaining the residents.

Israeli police said members of the Concerned Christians group planned to
provoke bloodshed by attacking policemen in Jerusalem.

A senior police source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the suspects
were planning violent acts in Jerusalem's walled Old City, and that one
possible location was the Temple Mount, site of Jewish-Arab tensions in the
past.

Avital said his clients will not fight deportation, even though they would
have preferred to remain in Israel to await what they believe will be the
return of Christ at the millennium.

Christian scriptures say Jesus will return to make everlasting peace after a
cataclysmic war between the biblical armies of Gog and Magog at Armageddon in
the Holy Land.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report


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==
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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[CTRL] More important issues

[H Samuels]

 -Caveat Lector-

Oh oh we can't have the trial of clinton dragged
out..

There is school issues, social security and all
kind of very important issues we must take care
of

==

The "school problems  ss problems" 
all existed BEFORE any of this ever happened

the politicians have been stealing from ss for
30 years ... it did not get where it is today by what
has happened in the last year.

The politicians nor theri families need worry about
ss, medicare or anything else
Votes to do something about any of these issues
could take place in one day 

but now all of a sudden the problems of the last
30 years must be settled and there is not enough
time to try a criminal politician?

Yeah politicians the American people are stupid.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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[CTRL] Philly's First Openly Gay Cop Shoots Himself...

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Breaking News...from http://www.phillynews.com

Wednesday, January 6, 1999 17:40 EST


Cop shoots self
Thomas Kalt joined Philadelphia police in December as the department's only
openly gay officer.
Inquirer Staff Report

Less than a month after joining the police department as Philadelphia's only
open gay officer, Thomas G. Kalt Jr. took his own life today by shooting
himself once in the head near the historic First Bank of the United States at
Third and Chestnut Streets.

Police Commissioner John F. Timoney, in an early evening press conference,
said he did not believe Kalt's action had anything to do with being a police
officer and alluded to problems associated with depression that Kalt was
dealing with.

Timoney said Kalt, 26, who graduated from the Police Academy on Dec. 15, had
told his superior on Monday that he wanted to resign and then filled out the
appropriate paperwork on Tuesday.

The commissioner said an official resignation is a process and that Kalt's
action had not been considered not irrevocable.

"It is a sad day for this organization," Timoney said.

Kalt was found in the area off Independence Historic Park around 1:25 p.m. It
is believed that he used his service pistol to take his life. It was unclear
if anyone saw him kill himself or who found his body.

In an interview with the Daily News the day after he graduated from the Police
Academy, Kalt said he never felt the need to keep his homosexuality a secret.

"It was not something I needed to do because I was never mistreated and never
felt the need to do that," he said.

In the interview, Kalt was upbeat about his experience at the academy, where
he said he was treated wonderfully.

He said he decided he wanted to be a police officer while working for the
Center City District, where he got to know a lot of police officers as a
member of the town watch.

"It was from working there that I began the dream of wanting to be an
officer," Kalt, a Tacony native, said. "I was inspired by them and they helped
me with the exam and the application process. During my training, they were
always there for support. Now I'm going to be one of them."

Kalt, a 1990 graduate of the High School of Engineering and Science, said that
during his four years with the Center City District and six months of training
at the Police Academy, he felt part of a team.

The news of Kalt's death stunned staff members at the Philadelphia Police
Academy, who said they had seen no signs of unhappiness in Kalt, nor anything
unusual in the way he was treated by other recruits.

"There was absolutely no problem whatsoever when he was here," said Capt.
Donna Sykes, who was in charge of recruit training during the six months that
Kalt attended the academy. She has since been transferred to head the police
department's Fairmount Park division.

Sykes was one of the few staff members who knew that Kalt was gay. He told the
captain because he wanted clearance to be interviewed by the Philadelphia Gay
News. The clearance was granted.

"I don't even know if the recruits themselves knew" about Kalt's sexual
orientation, Sykes said. "We even got some positive feedback from the Gay and
Lesbian Alliance on how things were conducted at the academy."

Lt. Martin O'Donnell, who teaches physical conditioning at the academy, said
he didn't realize Kalt was gay until Kalt gave the interview to the Daily
News.

"The instructors weren't aware of it," O'Donnell said.

Neither were many recruits. Several recruits who drifted back to the academy
after graduation told O'Donnell that Kalt had surprised them by declaring
himself as gay, but "to them, it wasn't a big deal."

"They thought he was a nice guy," O'Donnell said. "It was like, `Yeah? So
what?'"

Kalt was assigned to the 5th District, which covers the Manayunk/Roxborough
area.

At the time of Kalt's graduation, Timoney said that to his knowledge Kalt was
the first officer who professed to being gay, but added it would be naive to
think that Kalt is the only gay officer on the force.

"I hear he's a great officer with a great career ahead of himself and he
should do fine," Timoney said last month.

  ©1999 Philadelphia Newspapers Inc.





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More than just email--Get your F

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/6/99 10:18:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were
>  Confederate soldiers.

You're just confused.  The Confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery.
Some understood this and other, like yourself, didn't.  The South was
prostrate before evil.  Say it with me, "Thank you, God, for Lincoln and thank
you for the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s and thank you, Jesus,
that at the price of much blood, freedom has won the day for the slaves and
for the South."

Jerry

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/6/99 9:20:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

>
>  I chanced across the article below while going through
>  old New York Times from year 1925. It suggests a different
>  history of the American continent than is usually supposed.

Thanks for posting this, Brian.  I am driven nuts by sitting here trying to
think of the names of two books written about or by a New Zealand fellow who
amassed considerable evidence that various ancient people, including
Egyptians, Sumerians, and Romans, were in North America.  I think his last
name was Feller.  A title that sticks in my mind is America BC.  However, when
i tried to look it up at amazon.com, the search came up empty.

Jerry

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?]

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> >Rizzo approved the firebombing of the Philadelphia tenement..
>
> Hmmm, I might be totally wrong, please correct me if so, but I'm pretty sure
> William Goode (sp?) was the mayor of Philadelphia when the MOVE bombing took
> place in May 1985. If I'm not mistaken, he beat "law 'n' order" Frank Rizzo
in
> the mayoral election, which was a pretty big deal because Goode was a black
> mayor who won by coalition-building, while Frank Rizzo... well, he had his
> supporters, too. Rizzo had been mayor forever, but in 1985 Goode had
recently
> won the mayor's office, one of the few black mayors in major U.S. urban
areas
> at the time.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Charles

Charles, there were *two* incidents involving MOVE. Rizzo was mayor during the
first one, in 1978, when there was an "OK Corral"-type shootout at MOVE's
compound near the University of Pennsylvania and Drexel University. W. Wilson
Goode, the city's first (and so far only) black mayor, presided over the
bombing, in 1983; that took out the group's *new* headquarters, along with the
rest of the block. MOVE, BTW, is still very much alive and kicking; whether
this is a good thing deponent sayeth not.

Bob


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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[JoAnne Schmitz]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:19:51 -0600, you, Brian Redman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
>I chanced across the article below while going through
>old New York Times from year 1925. It suggests a different
>history of the American continent than is usually supposed.
>
>Brian Redman   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.shout.net/~bigred/cn.html
>Editor-in-Chief| ---Phone: 217-356-4418
>Conspiracy Nation  |   "The perfect slave thinks he's free."
>
>-- Forwarded message --
>
>  PUZZLING "RELICS" DUG UP IN ARIZONA STIR SCIENTISTS
>
>Purport To Chronicle The Arrival Of Roman Jews There In 775 A.D.
>
> [New York Times, December 13, 1925]
>
>TUCSON, Ariz., Dec. 12 -- After investigation by a number of
>scientists, first announcement was made here today of the
>excavation near Tucson of cast lead swords, crosses and other
>objects bearing Latin and Hebrew inscriptions which, taken at
>their face value, are held to mean that Roman Jews crossed the
>Atlantic in the Dark Ages, penetrated to Arizona and founded a
>kingdom which lasted from about 700 A.D. to 900 A.D.

There's more about these at

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1996/032196/screed.html

-JoAnne

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==
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[CTRL] Squawk's dissertation on ignorance!!

[Edward Britton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Squawk:

>Do you have some fascination with exposing your ignorance?  Just for the
record, I
>live in a neighborhood of homes that range in price from $250,000 and
up... My
>home is valued right a half a million.

Who's ignorant? Apparently, you have trouble with understanding metaphor as
well as American history and life in general.  But thanks, at least, for
giving us your well-healed reason for moaning about having to contribute to
the society you hold so dear.

Even so, given your provincial attitudes, I'll bet there's a home-on-wheels
somewhere in your history.

> I drive a $34,000 pick-up, and my wife
>drives a Mercedes.

How cute: an urban assault vehicle, right? Great Caesar's ghost, you're
becoming your own stereotype!

> I earned the money for this myself, and with the half the
>govm't let me keep, I purchased whatever I own.

Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself?

>  I don't say these things to brag,
>as worldly riches are uncertain and fleeting... Only mention them to
expose how
>ignorant you are, and point out that one should not put much stock in your
>opinions.

Man, please! You wouldn't know a rational argument if it crawled up your
rectum and died!

>Never said anything about "better" or "worse," and only mentioned that the
Indians
>were minimal producers of anything, and lived in a constant state of
semi-poverty.
>That may be "better" in the eyes of some people.  I don't care, as long as
they
>don't steal my stuff.

No, but in typical right-wing fashion, you sure as hell implied it! As for
the statement you just made about "semi-poverty," do you have even the
slightest clue what life was like for native Americans BEFORE we came over
here and stole the land out from under them? My God, talk about
ignorance!!

Poor, poor Squawk! So very worried that someone is after his "stuff." Keep
crapping on people you don't know, much less understand, and your fears may
well be warranted.

>Neat!  I'm sure that the Founding Fathers would never have come up with
the idea
>of a loose confederacy without the Iroqois Sure...

Kind of hard to say: our "founding fathers" were so much into taking what
wasn't theirs that such a noble concept was not likely to come to fruition
in the minds of bully thieves all by itself.

>So they came over here, leaving their palatial homes in Europe, to live in
crude
>huts and exploit the Indians of their goods Right?

Not quite that simple: they were fleeing "religious persecution" in an
attempt to devise a system which would facilitate their theft. Sure, there
were some hard-working people in the bunch who just wanted a better life
for their families, but they didn't bankroll the trip.

>I think its quaint how you use the term
>"plunder resources."

Hardly quaint, unless you consider the slaughter of native Americans and
the enslavement of a race of people as being quaint.

>  What on earth should we do with them but manipulate them
>into useful things?

Perhaps we should have "borrowed" the Indian philosophy of frugal use of
resourses as well. Then, maybe, we could have had both a clean environment
AND a materialistic technology at the same time.

>Personally, I think oil is more useful in my automobile than it is 6,000 feet
>beneath the surface of the earth... So I'm all for plundering oil and
anything
>else that can make my life better.

Oh, I wish I had read this jewel first. You would have been a far more
enjoyable target of humiliation. Keep thinking that way, Squawk, and for
the pursuit of a "better life, you'll be living in your own filth!

Edward   ><>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
  "From the rage of today's downtrodden comes the revenge of tomorrow's
revolutionary force." Edward Britton   ><>
   http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5285/connector1.html
Talk to the planet: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Reality_Pump2
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] More on the Concerned Christians and Others

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

from: The Philadelphia Inquirer, January 6, 1999
http://www.phillynews.com

==

The year just begun, thoughts turn to the next.
For many, Jerusalem is the place to be

By Barbara Demick
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER



JERUSALEM -- Karen Allen was a Las Vegas showgirl, an alcoholic and an
occasional prostitute before she discovered Jesus. Two months ago, she flew to
Israel on a one-way ticket, changed her name to the Hebrew spelling of Keren,
and almost immediately met and married another born-again Christian.
Her husband, a 26-year-old Californian who goes only by the name of Raymond,
spent 12 years in juvenile detention and prison for petty theft and drugs
before he moved to Jerusalem -- or as his bride puts it, was brought here by
God.

"God delivered us and cleansed us of the garbage of the world to prepare for
the second coming of Jesus Christ," said Allen, 49, a native of Bradenton,
Fla.

The newlyweds are among nearly a hundred Americans who are living on
Jerusalem's Mount of Olives, waiting, watching and praying for the second
coming of Jesus. So convinced are they that the time is near that many have
destroyed their U.S. passports and sold their earthly possessions.

With the approach of the year 2000, Israel is girding itself for a deluge of
Christian pilgrims. Four million visitors are expected next year -- nearly
double the normal tourist trade. Although most will stay for only a week or
two, there is a contingent digging in for the long haul.

The arrival of the Christian pilgrims is a mixed blessing for the Holy Land.
On the one hand, those in the tourism industry are smacking their lips with
anticipation. One enterprising hotelier, a Muslim, faxed hundreds of U.S.
church groups last year with the enticing advertisement: "How would you like
to be staying at the Mount of Olives Hotel on the day that Christ returns?"

At the same time, many Israelis -- as well as Palestinian Muslims -- are
disinclined to welcome proselytizing missionaries and are understandably
nervous about anything that could touch off disruptions in the notoriously
volatile Holy Land.

In anticipation, Israel has created a task force, informally known as the
"millennium unit." The task force is working with psychiatrists to deal with
what is popularly known here as "Jerusalem syndrome" -- delusions often
suffered by pilgrims who find themselves overwhelmed with emotion in the city.
It is also buttressing security at sensitive sites and working to screen out
potential troublemakers.

The task force made its first arrests Sunday, taking into custody eight
Americans, acolytes of the Denver cult leader Monte Kim Miller, who has
prophesied that he and his followers would be killed in Jerusalem in December
1999. According to Israeli police, there were suspicions that the cult might
create a disturbance on the Temple Mount, the site of the Jewish Temple
destroyed in A.D. 70, which now houses the Dome of the Rock and El-Aqsa
Mosque. The Temple Mount has been a frequent target of violence by both
Christian and Jewish zealots, who believe the destruction of the Islamic holy
places will augur the coming of the Messiah.

The cult members, along with their six children, are expected to be deported
by the end of the week.

Christian leaders, who have been working with the Israeli Tourism Ministry to
prepare for the year 2000, hasten to point out that the Colorado cultists are
not representative of the pilgrims visiting the Holy Land.

"This is a time when Israel is making every effort to open its doors to as
many Christians as possible. . . . We don't want them to think all Christians
coming here are lunatics," said Clarence Wagner, international director of
Bridges for Peace, a Jerusalem-based evangelical organization and charity.

In fact, a small but growing community of American fundamentalist Christians
has lived peacefully for some years on the Mount of Olives, the parched, dusty
Arab neighborhood rising to the east of Jerusalem. The slopes are fabled for
the spectacular view they give tourists of the Old City, with its luminescent
gold-topped Dome of the Rock; but what interests the evangelicals is the
biblical tradition that Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount, and the
prophecy that the mountain will split in two when the Messiah returns.

"The Bible says that Jesus will return, that this is where he ascended and
this is where he is coming back," said Brother David, 58, a preacher, who, in
1982, sold his trailer park in Syracuse, N.Y., and came to Israel with only a
Bible and the clothes on his back. "When it happens, you can be in California
or Australia, but Jesus is coming here and you might as well be here too."

Although exact beliefs vary widely, the evangelical Christians believe that
recorded history began in 4000 B.C. The next millennium, which by that count
will be the seventh, is tantamount to the seventh day of the week, a Sabbath
period of unprecedented world peac

Re: [CTRL] Joke

[Vicky L. Jones]

 -Caveat Lector-

This is just too awful!
Vicky

-Original Message-
From: nurev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:12 AM
Subject: [CTRL] Joke


> -Caveat Lector-
>
>-Original Message-
>
>
>Mahatma Ghandi walked barefoot everywhere, to the point that the soles
>of his feet became quite thick and hard.  Being a very spiritual
>person, he ate very little, and often fasted.  As a result, he was
>quite thin and frail.
> Furthermore, due to his diet, he ended up with very bad breath.
> Therefore, he came to be known as a
>
>
>
>"Super callused fragile mystic plagued with halitosis."
>
>DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
>==
>CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
>screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
>and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
>frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
>spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
>gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
>be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
>nazi's need not apply.
>
>Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
>
>Archives Available at:
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
>http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
>To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
>SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Om

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?

[EASTERISLE]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/6/99 10:17:09 PM, you wrote:

>W. Wilson Goode was the mayor at the time. Guess he dropped a bomb on a
>rowhome to work on that "law & order" image.

No doubt, heh. He did, in fact, approve the final order to drop the 4 lbs. of
C-4 on 'em. Guess he didn't realize the whole neighborhood would go up in
flames as a result of it (as if bombing MOVE and firing 10,000 rounds of
ammunition into a house occupied by children wasn't bad enough).

--Charles

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

What with all the talk  and sentiment about the lofty and wonderous
"founding fathers" and such on this list, one tends to forget that
many (the majority?) who first came to the colonies were fugitives,
criminals, and people otherwise desperate enough to cross an ocean
(no guarantee of safe arrival in those days) and think to make a life
in a land with absolutely  no amenities awaiting them...people
willing to venture into the unknown and face any hardship rather than
to stay where they were.

In such terms, the turn of the last century was fairly recent
history, and you have only to look at old photographs of Paris to see
how incredibly things have changed in the 20th century. You have only
to read a novel like "The Painted Bird" by Jerzy  Kozniski (sp?) to
realize that many parts of  Europe, outside the big cities, were
incredibly primitive and "uncivilized" at the time of WWII.

I think things have moved so fast in the past two or three decades
that it is really difficult for us to think or imagine in historical
terms anymore.




sno0wl

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?

[Jeff Russo]

 -Caveat Lector-

> Hmmm, I might be totally wrong, please correct me if so, but I'm pretty sure
> William Goode (sp?) was the mayor of Philadelphia when the MOVE bombing took
> place in May 1985. If I'm not mistaken, he beat "law 'n' order" Frank Rizzo in

W. Wilson Goode was the mayor at the time. Guess he dropped a bomb on a
rowhome to work on that "law & order" image.

^
   /=\\  Jeff Russo
  /===\ \Office:441 Edwards (864)656-0309
 /=\' \  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
/===\'' \http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~jeff
   /=\ ' '\
  /===\''  / "There was some brilliant work done
 /=\ '/   with rats, which makes it scientific."
/===\/   -- Professor Ralph Noble, RPI

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] Rizzonia

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

The ONLY reason why I even went searching for this information is because
of a tune I used to listen to by Gil Scott-Heron, in which he talks about
Rizzo as being unfriendly to African-Americans.  The tune was written in
the early seventies when there was an emphasis on social change.  There
ain't much -- even from the City of Brotherly Love/Hate ...


>From The Political Graveyard

http://www.potifos.com/tpg/geo/PA/ofc9.html

Rizzo, Frank Lazarro (1920-1990) Born in Philadelphia, Pa., October 23,
1920. Mayor of Philadelphia, Pa., 1971-79; defeated, 1983, 1987. Died in
Philadelphia, Pa., July 16, 1990. Burial location unknown.
--
Quote:  "The streets are safe in Philadelphia, it's only the people who
make them unsafe."

(From http://www.campus.bt.com/CampusWorld/orgs/org6641/quotez/1882.htm)
--
Anecdote from
http://www.phillynews.com/daily_news/98/Sep/10/local/DBOX10.htm

Franny Rizzo: Dad wouldn't hurt a fly

Frank Rizzo -- the mayor and ex-police commissioner -- was also a
softhearted guy who gave up deer hunting after an encounter with a majestic
animal.

Yesterday, Councilman Frank Rizzo Jr. explained how his late father gave up
deer hunting, which he had done once a year in Central Pennsylvania.

"One year he came home -- no deer," said Rizzo, who was then a youngster
who immediately demanded, "Dad, what happened?"

As Rizzo Jr. tells the story, the Big Bambino had been out in the woods,
walking in new-fallen snow. He turned around and spotted a worthy buck.

"He said he took his gun out of his sling. He lined up. At that moment, the
deer cocked its head and looked right into the scope."

Big Frank, looking into both of the buck's eyes, "said at that moment, he
choked," Rizzo said. "And that was the last time he ever went hunting."

That was when the elder Rizzo was in his mid-40s, his son said. "I'm glad
he quit, because I hated venison. It was like eating a shoe."
Councilman Rizzo related the event during a break in a Fairmount Park
Commission meeting on killing Wissahickon Valley deer. He says his father
"would never tolerate" the proposed killing.

His father, he said, was such a compassionate guy toward animals that he
wouldn't use Raid on insects. "He'd catch a fly," said Rizzo, "and take it
outside."

-- Ramona Smith

>From Amazon.CoM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=094015918X/002-6480252-4831205

Frank Rizzo : The Last Big Man in Big City America
by S. A. Paolantonio

Try express shopping with
1-ClickSM and Gift Click Our Price: $22.00

Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days.

Paperback - 405 pages (July 1993)
Camino Press; ISBN: 094015918X ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.30 x 9.30 x 6.31

Amazon.com Sales Rank: 246,577
Avg. Customer Review: 
Number of Reviews: 3


Write an online review and share your thoughts with other readers!

Reviews
>From Booklist , September 1, 1993
This biography of former Philadelphia mayor and police chief Rizzo has it
all: political intrigue, back-room double-dealing, and a first-rate
investigation into twentieth-century big-city politics. Paolantonio does a
good job tracing the rise of the Democratic Party in Philadelphia, from
pre-FDR days, when Democrats were hopelessly outnumbered, to the 1950s and
1960s, when they evened the score. Rizzo wasn't committed to either party
and ran as a Democrat in 1971, while working behind the scenes to ensure
the election of Republican Arlen Specter (now senior senator from
Pennsylvania) as district attorney. Rizzo's law-and-order stand made him a
favorite of President Nixon but an enemy of liberals and blacks, who
accused his department of police brutality. After leaving office in 1979
following an abortive recall attempt, Rizzo made several comeback attempts
as a Republican against embattled mayor Wilson Goode. Ultimately, Rizzo is
an anomaly in big-city politics; there was no machine, such as Daley's in
Chicago, supporting him, nor was there a movement like the one that swept
Goode into office. It was just Rizzo himself--the force of his
personality--and it is his magnetic persona that carries this well-written
biography. Joe Collins
Copyright© 1993, American Library Association. All rights reserved

A<>E<>R

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking
new landscapes but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Forwarded as information only; no endorsement to be presumed
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material
is distributed without charge or profit to those who have
expressed a prior interest in receiving this type of information
for non-profit research and educational purposes only.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational 

[CTRL] "Strategy of the Reptilians"

[Steve Wingate]

 -Caveat Lector-
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
From:   "Cassie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "IUFO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject:IUFO: "Strategy of the Reptilians"
Date sent:  Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:47:02 -0600
Send reply to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hello,


   I found this interesting and thought I would share it.


 Cassie
Grand Strategy of the Reptilians
This paper is meant to acquaint the reader with the tools they will need to raise their level of awareness about the abduction phenomenon and allow them to avoid the misfortunes which are common to many abductees.
My name is James Bartley and I am a colleague of Eve Lorgen's. I am an abductee. I am a student of military history and have studied the occult connection with the UFO phenomenon.
We humans reside in what is essentially a reptilian sphere of influence. The symbology of the reptilian overlordship is all around us. Phallic worship and the marginalization of the feminine principle have reduced the human race to what it is today, a thundering herd of bewildered sheep.
The Grand Strategy of the reptilians has been to divide and conquer the human race by exploiting inherent vulnerabilities and weaknesses within us. I know this is a bitter pill to have to swallow but we must be mature enough to look the facts in the eye and not allow ourselves to be held in perpetual spiritual bondage by our own ignorance and wishful thinking. The strategy of divide and conquer manifest itself both in our personal lives and on a global macrocosmic scale.
We have been subjected to a long-term process of genetic and soul matrix manipulation. The human life span has been artificially shortened to facilitate the recycling of our souls for purposes known only to the reptilians who see the human race as a resource. The dark gods of this world are well aware of the geological calendar of this planet and have prepared themselves accordingly.
What we are involved in is nothing less than all out spiritual warfare on a cosmic and multidimensional scale. What is at stake are our very souls. We can either choose to break out of this state of spiritual bondage and spiritual enslavement or we can be recycled once again and our descendants will have to start all over from scratch with little of no understanding of what has gone on before. The Dark Ages revisited.
Spiritual Warfare
As Spiritual Warriors we must be mature enough to realize that the reptilians and their followers know our weaknesses and vulnerabilities better than we do. Many abductees, no matter how metaphysically oriented they are, have to endure sheer misery in their lives. Abductees typically experience one emotional or psychological trauma after another never realizing for a moment that much of the negativity in their life has been externally imposed.
Trigger mechanisms are programmed into abductees to detract them from coming into their own truth vis a vis the reptilians and the other dark gods of this world. Likewise certain individuals are sent into our lives specifically to sow confusion and discord. Now more than ever we must be wary of who or what we allow into our experience.
There is a fundamental occultic basis for much of the abduction phenomena.. There are aspects of this phenomenon that are indistinguishable from Demonic Infestation and demonic possession, Sorcery and Witchcraft, as frightening and unpopular as that may be.
The ongoing interaction between humans within the Deep Black World of the Intelligence/Security apparatus and the Aerospace community with non-human intelligences has an occultic basis which was thousands if not millions of years in the making. There is nothing new about humans interacting with and working for non-humans.
Under the Influence: Reptilian Hosts
Most abductees are not even aware that possession does occur and that a significant number of individuals heavily involved in UFO research are literally hosts ( alien entities attached/ indwelling) for reptilian and other malevolent entities. These hosts have lectured publicly, written books and spoken on the Art Bell show. So why is the average abductee ignorant of this fifth column within our very midst? Because most abductees are still looking for the truth outside of themselves rather than from within. As stated above: We are the products of a long term genetic and soul matrix manipulation designed to keep us individually and collectively in a subserviant status vis a vis the reptilians and the dark gods of this world.
Discernment and Maturity
Now more than ever we must recognize that there are trigger mechanisms programmed into us which are meant to keep us in perpetual bondage. Whether your particular vulnerability is over-eating, substance abuse (especially crank or crystal meth which is the drug of choice of the dark gods) promiscuity, love obsessions et al., it's all spawned from the same source.

Re: [CTRL] Squawk re-writes American history!!

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Edward Britton wrote:

> Life must be beautiful in your trailer-park world.

Do you have some fascination with exposing your ignorance?  Just for the record, I
live in a neighborhood of homes that range in price from $250,000 and up... My
home is valued right a half a million.  I drive a $34,000 pick-up, and my wife
drives a Mercedes.  I earned the money for this myself, and with the half the
govm't let me keep, I purchased whatever I own.  I don't say these things to brag,
as worldly riches are uncertain and fleeting... Only mention them to expose how
ignorant you are, and point out that one should not put much stock in your
opinions.

> And your point is what? Do you suggest that an agrarian economy in
> balance with it's environment is, somehow, primitive by comparison to the
> destructive and metastatic (that means cancerous for you right-wingers
> out there) production/technology-centered system of Europeans?

Never said anything about "better" or "worse," and only mentioned that the Indians
were minimal producers of anything, and lived in a constant state of semi-poverty.
That may be "better" in the eyes of some people.  I don't care, as long as they
don't steal my stuff.

> >Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy?
> Give me >a break!
>
> You'll get no break from me, oh proud-to-be-ignorant one. The fact that
> we "borrowed" the structure of our Constitution from the Iroquois
> Republic (confederacy of a loose sort) is a matter of historical record.

Neat!  I'm sure that the Founding Fathers would never have come up with the idea
of a loose confederacy without the Iroqois Sure...

> >I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and
> >fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived over here?
>
> Initially, they were aristocrats in search of resources to plunder.

So they came over here, leaving their palatial homes in Europe, to live in crude
huts and exploit the Indians of their goods Right?  Or were they looking for
opportunity to build something better than they had (socially, materially, and
economically) in the "old country?"  I think its quaint how you use the term
"plunder resources."  What on earth should we do with them but manipulate them
into useful things?  Do you suggest the minerals and land are there to worship?
Personally, I think oil is more useful in my automobile than it is 6,000 feet
beneath the surface of the earth... So I'm all for plundering oil and anything
else that can make my life better.

Hawk

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

[CTRL] Iraqiana: 01-06

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

>From ArabicNews.CoM

Egyptian parliament opens issue of those who disappeared in Iraq
Egypt, Politics, 1/6/99

The Egyptian People's Assembly decided to open the issue of Egyptian
citizens who disappeared in Iraq.

The head of the assembly, Fathi Serour, delivered two urgent statements
yesterday regarding this matter to the committee on the Arab affairs at the
assembly.

The Egyptian newspaper al-Akhbar al-Youm published an expanded
investigation about the disappearance of 6,000 citizens who are working in
Iraq, and it has blamed the Iraqi government for this.

A member the leading front of the parliamentary bloc for the ruling
national party, Fathi Biyoumi, read an urgent statement before the assembly
in which he asked Egyptian Foreign Minister Amr Moussa to raise an inquiry
to reveal the facts, pointing to the role played by the Egyptian government
for saving Iraq in its different crises.

Arab personality visited Baghdad to stop information attack campaign
Iraq, Politics, 1/6/99

Iraqi official sources said that an Arab personality confidentially visited
Baghdad few days ago and asked to meet Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to
stop criticizing Arab governments.

The opposition Iraqi National Conference denounced the Iraqi informational
campaign against the Arab states.

In a statement, the Iraqi National Conference said that "at a critical
juncture in which the Iraqi regime needs all the fraternal and positive
situations that sympathize with their crisis, some mercenaries of the
ruling regime addicted to fact-faking insist upon confronting any Arab
official statement that calls for respecting human rights in Iraq."

Butler: I did not spy on Iraq for the US
Iraq, Politics, 1/6/99

UNSCOM chief Richard Butler responded with strong denials today to US media
reports that the UN organization for investigating Iraqi weapons of mass
destruction spied on the Iraqi government and gave the information to the
United States.

Butler stated that the United States was one of several countries assisting
UNSCOM in its duties. In every case, he said, UNSCOM used US assistance
only "in the pursuit of our disarmament mandate."

He said that all inspection operations were required to have a disarmament
purpose consistent with UNSCOM's mandate. He said that assistance UNSCOM
received was used for "our legal purposes alone."

"Have we facilitated spying? Are we spies? Absolutely not," Butler said.

Iraqi officials have often referred to Butler and his agency as a spies.

Asked whether UNSCOM was given any equipment that could be used for
eavesdropping on the Iraqi government, Butler said, "None of it includes
eavesdropping equipment," adding after a slight pause, "Our office in Iraq
is closed."

Iraq accuses Saudi Arabia and Egypt of approving recent US military attack
Iraq, Politics, 1/6/99

Iraqi Deputy Premier Tariq Aziz accused in an article published on Tuesday
by the Iraqi daily al-Jouhmouriyah both Saudi Arabia and Egypt of being
told beforehand about the US-British attacks against Iraq and agreeing to
the attacks out of their belief that these attacks would lead to the
collapse of the Iraqi government.

Aziz said in his article that the crisis during November had given the
governments in Saudi Arabia and Egypt the green light for the United States
to launch the aggression through the statement released by the Doha meeting
of the Damascus Declaration signatory states.

Aziz added that Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah Bin Abdul Aziz and Egyptian
President Hosni Mubarak agreed to the attack on Iraq after they received
guarantees and assurances from US President Bill Clinton that the attacks
aimed at changing the government in Baghdad.

Aziz wrote that the US president told his "puppets and hirelings" in the
region, especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt and others involved in the
November crisis, that what he was preparing this time was different from
previous ones. The main target of the military aggression is to change the
regime, Aziz alleged.

Aziz said that the aggression failed in realizing its set objectives.

>From Nando.NeT

U-2 spy plane flights over Iraq halted, U.N. official confirms

Copyright © 1999 Nando Media
Copyright © 1999 Reuters News Service


By ANTHONY GOODMAN

Look back at 1998 at

UNITED NATIONS (January 5, 1999 7:27 p.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) -
Not only have U.N. weapons inspectors been withdrawn from Iraq, but also
flights over the country by Saudi Arabia-based American U-2 spy planes have
also been halted, a U.N. official confirmed on Tuesday.

The last flight took place some time before the start of four days of
attacks on Iraqi targets by United States and British warplanes and cruise
missiles that ended on Dec. 19.

U.N. weapons inspectors were withdrawn from Iraq on Dec. 16, hours after
the head of the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) in charge of disarming
Iraq, Richard Butler, issued a report saying Baghdad had failed to 

[CTRL] Farming

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

>From Reuters

Tuesday January 5 7:16 PM ET

U.S. Settles With Black Farmers In Racism Case

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. government reached a multimillion-dollar
settlement Tuesday to compensate black farmers, who said the Agriculture
Department for decades discriminated against them in awarding loans,
disaster relief and other aid, a USDA spokeswoman said.

U.S. District Judge Paul Friedman approved the deal in a closed hearing
late Tuesday, the spokeswoman said. Sources close to the case said the
proposed settlement would give the farmers a tax-free cash payment of
$50,000 and wipe out their debts to the USDA. On average, the farmers
involved in the case owe $75,000 to $100,000.

Agriculture Department officials scheduled a news conference at 1930 EST to
discuss the settlement. No official details were available.

Between 2,000 and 4,000 farmers were expected to be compensated under the
deal, which caps weeks of negotiations by lawyers for the two sides.
Farmers who feel they deserve more than $50,000 will be able to present
their cases at a special hearing, sources said.

The farmers claim they were systematically denied government funding over
decades because of their race and did not get a fair hearing at the USDA
when they appealed. Fewer than 1 percent of U.S. farmers are black and
studies show blacks are leaving farming at three times the rate of whites.

Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman has acknowledged past discrimination at
the USDA but said many of the problems stemmed from the dismantling of the
department's civil rights office during the Reagan administration. Clinton
reopened the civil rights office.



A<>E<>R

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new landscapes but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust
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is distributed without charge or profit to those who have
expressed a prior interest in receiving this type of information
for non-profit research and educational purposes only.

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Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 6:24:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

>  I was trying to
>  show that overall there has been a growth in population so that the
>  losses have been greatly overwhelmed by the increases.

Hey, kill a few, grow more.  It all evens out.



DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/5/99 6:05:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

> the nation
>  and the south and even the black population of the south would probably
>  have been better off if Lincoln had not forced the south through
>  military means back into the union.

You don't seem
to understand much about human nature.  Slavery was not just an economic
issue.
It was a way of life and cheap self esteem.  It was the dark pleasure of
having absolute power over others.  Slavery had deeply corrupted the South.
To think that the results of slavery were typically benign or even neutral is
fantasy.  It is also naive to think that the slave
masters would ever have voluntarily given up their corrupt power.  Don't just
focus  on  the shallow economics oriented histories, consider and read about
the social/psychological realities.

Jerry

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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[CTRL] Squawk re-writes American history!!

[Edward Britton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Squawk:

>Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until
Indians taught
>them?

Yes, but whose fairy tale? Do YOU think that us stinking Europeans (who
didn't even know how to bathe ourselves until Marco Polo went to China to
learn how), half starved from our journey, knew how to grow indigenous
crops? I guess such boring little details such as ship's logs and other
historical records are of no use to you in formulating your argument
supporting white supremacy. Life must be beautiful in your trailer-park
world.

>But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more
than
>handcrafts.

And your point is what? Do you suggest that an agrarian economy in
balance with it's environment is, somehow, primitive by comparison to the
destructive and metastatic (that means cancerous for you right-wingers
out there) production/technology-centered system of Europeans?

>Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy?
Give me >a break!

You'll get no break from me, oh proud-to-be-ignorant one. The fact that
we "borrowed" the structure of our Constitution from the Iroquois
Republic (confederacy of a loose sort) is a matter of historical record.

>I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been
farmers and
>fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived
over
here?

Initially, they were aristocrats in search of resources to plunder.

Edward   ><>

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Nurev: Criminalizing Homelessness

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Edward Britton wrote:

>
> But Nurev, this is entirely too pessimistic. One person's failed society
> is another's new beginning. A little barbequed pig is a good thing, now
> and then :-)

You know, I didn't think this kind of pathetic musing took place outside of
Academia

Hawk

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

William... I am having to post this directly to you because I quickly use up my 
alloted 7 posts per day.

William Hugh Tunstall wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Hawk,
> Thank you for serving our country.  As a veteran, you put your life on the line for 
>the country and
> that is to be respected.  That's why I don't quite understand your political 
>position.

The fact that I "put my life on the line" is precisely what started me on the road to 
my political
position.  I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer 
and aviator.
During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta 
Force," but which
then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names.  As such, I engaged in 
numerous
"informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S.  -- 
often not even allowed
to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions).  I was also in 
VietNam quite a
bit, before the conflict became a "war."  In all of those missions, we were directly 
involved on the
"wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally 
helping some dictatorial
govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace.  Then, for three more 
years, I was
directly involved in intelligence gathering operations.  For three years, every 
morning, I saw "raw
intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption.  
Not one time -- and
I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average 
American.  We were lied
to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time.  I was trained in 
the process of
developing "cover stories" about things that happened, and I can spot the various 
techniques because
they are still in use today.  In short, I distrust our govm't precisely because I know 
it to be a lying
and manipulative government that has been and still is involved in an active effort to 
deny or reduce
the freedom of everyone here and abroad.  So, you see, neither I nor anyone else "in 
the service of this
country" is responsible for the freedom that I do enjoy, and cerainly not for the 
freedom of people in
other countries.

> I'm descended from people who owned slaves.  If you want to look in the historical 
>records of the
> state of North Carolina, you will find that twenty-two members of my family fought 
>FOR the
> Confederacy.  They were not "bad" people...they thought they were fighting for their 
>friends and
> neighbors...defending their "southern way of life," a way of life that involved the 
>enslavement of
> human beings...

I agree with you about what they were fighting for.

> My grandfather, born in 1886, would tell me stories about how much our family loved 
>their slaves..how
> well they treated them, etc.  My grandfather wasn't deliberately lying... sure, my 
>family loved the
> slaves.  They were valuable property.

That is not the only reason the loved their slaves.  Surely you don't deny that close 
personal bonds
were often deverloped between slaves and the family that owned them... It is well 
documented.

> And they treated them humanely (if one can argue that owning a human being is a
> humane idea).

I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it an 
inhumane act.  Anyone
who understands the bible (which I allow as the only reliable source of determining 
"good" and "evil"),
should quickly pick up on the idea that God does not consider the institution of 
slavery as evil.  And
if God doesn't consider it evil, then I certainly am not going to condemn HIM for His 
position on it.
It is clear from the Bible that involuntary servitude is not preferable in many cases, 
but it is not
condemned.  It is the abuse of the relationship that is condemned.

> They didn't separate family members...  I still have visions of my grandfather, old 
>H.B., sitting in
> his chair, puffing on his cigar, telling me about how much the family lived their 
>"."  My
> grandfather was a product of his generation.

Who isn't?

> And,for your information, the family had stories of the damned Yankees who
> came into North Carolina, seizing the food and valuables of everyone.  In
> order to save their smoked hams, the family placed discolored flour on the
> cuts of meat, hoping that the Yankees would think them poisoned.  I was
> raised on Civil War stories and states rights arguments.

Same here... Some of my ancestors lived in S. Carolina.  They were a large and 
prosperous family, and
when the Union army came through, they burned 30 of the Willis plantations to the 
ground, leaving only
one standing, and it had been set fire to.

> Most white southerners were too poor to own slaves.  Slavery was a complex
> institution--the large operations in the Deep South (cotton) were run differently 
>from the the tobacco
> plantations of the border states (Ky, Tenn, NC and Virginia)...

As were the 

Re: [CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?

[EASTERISLE]

 -Caveat Lector-

>Rizzo approved the firebombing of the Philadelphia tenement..

Hmmm, I might be totally wrong, please correct me if so, but I'm pretty sure
William Goode (sp?) was the mayor of Philadelphia when the MOVE bombing took
place in May 1985. If I'm not mistaken, he beat "law 'n' order" Frank Rizzo in
the mayoral election, which was a pretty big deal because Goode was a black
mayor who won by coalition-building, while Frank Rizzo... well, he had his
supporters, too. Rizzo had been mayor forever, but in 1985 Goode had recently
won the mayor's office, one of the few black mayors in major U.S. urban areas
at the time.

Hope this helps,
Charles

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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[CTRL] Arms Inspectors Helped US

[Hilary Thomas]

Am I to infer from this report that Bulter's actions 
are now, dare I say, heroic?
 
Hilary
 





Annan: Arms 
Inspectors Helped US 
Wednesday, January 6, 1999; 7:40 a.m. EST 
WASHINGTON (AP) -- United 
Nations weapons inspectors may have been used to help collect 
sensitive Iraqi communications for U.S. efforts to undermine Saddam 
Hussein's regime, according to published reports. 
The Boston Globe and The Washington Post quoted anonymous sources 
in today's editions as saying the electronic eavesdropping operation 
allowed U.S. intelligence agents to listen in on secret 
communications among military units responsible for the Iraqi 
leader's safety. 
The Post quoted confidants close to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi 
Annan as saying he is convinced Washington used the operation to 
penetrate the security apparatus protecting Saddam. 
However, the Los Angeles Times reported today that Annan has told 
key staff members he has no knowledge of the activities alleged by 
the Post. 
``The secretary-general has become aware of the fact that UNSCOM 
directly facilitated the creation of an intelligence collection 
system for the United States in violation of its mandate,'' one 
Annan adviser told the Post. ``The United Nations cannot be party to 
an operation to overthrow one of its member states. In the most 
fundamental way, that is what's wrong with the UNSCOM operation.'' 
Annan accumulated enough evidence on the eavesdropping, some 
through intermediaries passing on classified U.S. information, to 
ask Richard Butler, head of the weapons inspection team, about the 
reports last month, the Post said. 
According to two of the confidants, Butler denied them to Annan. 
The newspaper quoted some Annan advisers as acknowledging that Annan 
would like to pressure Butler to resign in favor of a replacement 
who might win the consent of Iraq and its defenders on the U.N. 
Security Council. 
The Globe quoted former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter, a 
former U.S. Marine, as saying, ``We knew a hell of a lot of 
information about presidential security.'' But Ritter said if his 
team found any information related to Hussein's personal safety, 
``we would dump it.'' 
``Anything we did, we did on our own initiative,'' Ritter said on 
NBC's ``Today.'' ``The United Nations was in total control.'' His 
inspection team, Ritter added, ``was not a party to any effort to 
overthrow the president of Iraq.'' 
The Globe said the surveillance equipment allowed U.N. inspectors 
to listen in on radio, cell phone and walkie-talkie communications 
by members of the Iraqi security network. 
The Globe said Rolf Ekeus, former executive chairman of UNSCOM, 
declined to discuss operational elements of the system, but said the 
program was run and controlled by the United Nations inspectors, not 
the United States. 
Ritter told the Globe that changed in March 1998 when the United 
States pressured British and Israeli intelligence to stop supporting 
the U.N. eavesdropping operation and took it over itself. 
``The U.S. decided this system is too sensitive to be run by 
UNSCOM,'' Ritter told the paper. ``They bulled their way in and took 
it over. Now any data collected by the activity is not being 
assessed by UNSCOM. Now, the U.S. gained 100 percent access and is 
not feeding any of it back.'' 
``A number of member states have assisted UNSCOM in various 
aspects of its work, and one of those is the United States,'' Butler 
told the Post Tuesday night. ``But as far as I am concerned I have 
always been assiduous in insisting that any assistance given to us 
be strictly related to our disarmament mandate. I have never 
approved of any assistance to any member state which would serve 
their unilateral purpose.'' 
While Annan acknowledges that the eavesdropping operation was 
meant in part to aid inspectors looking for weapons of mass 
destruction, he also believes UNSCOM enabled the United States to 
listen in on some of the most sensitive communications of the 
Baghdad regime, his confidants told the Post. 
A Clinton administration official, speaking on condition of 
anonymity, told the Post

Re: [CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?

[MarkM411]

 -Caveat Lector-

He was mayor of Philadelphia but I'm pretty sure he died.

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==
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[CTRL] Our eyes as a means of identification

[MY HEART'S IN DIXIE!]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hello,

I just signed on to this list so ya'll may have already talked about
this subject, but do you remember the old eye tests we use to take down
at the local motor vehicles department when getting our driver's license
renewed? They used the large cardboard pinned on the wall with letters
of the alphabet in rows of various sizes where we read the required rows
at the distance from it we were instructed to stand.

I remember those days, but since then the motor vehicles department have
little eye machines we have to peer into in order to take the required
eye test. My license were up for renewal before my birthday last fall
and the test I had to take was by looking into that little eye machine.
In there to read were not letters of the alphabet, rather numbers
instead.

Ever since then, I have wondered about those little eye machines,
wondered if somehow down the road of time they may be used in other
ways, such as them identifying individuals who look into theminstead
of us identifying what we see in them.

For the past few weeks I have been surfing the net trying to find
helpful information about y2k, and in so doing last night I ran across a
website entitled:  The Biometrics Consortiumwhich "serves as the US
Government's focal point for research, development, test, evaluation,
and application of biometric-based personal identification/verification
technology." located at: < http://www.biometrics.org/ >  It seems there
are great plans made to use our eyes as a means of identifying who we
are, knowing everything about each individual person, and things that we
do, things as simple as grocery shopping, things we look at could all be
monitored by some unknown entity. This concerns me deeply.

Linda

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[PRUDYL]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/6/99 11:31:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<<
 Perhaps the Book of Mormon's fanciful narrative of Semites in America
 (Lamanites and Nephites) has some basis in fact.  who knows. >>

While I lived in Utah, a friend (an author of a number of books on ghost
towns) published information about some coins purchased by someone from some
Indians who had found them in a cave along a river.  The coins were placed in
the museum in Salt Lake City and ascribed to the Lamanites.  I had a friend
from the Middle East look at the pictures of them in the book.  He said one
was Arabic and one had Cunieform writing.  I thought perhaps some Spanish
conquistadores (some had come a good way into what is now the United States)
had lost them there.  Prudy

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: [FTC] Dangerous NAFTA Trucks Invade US

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Sorry if I spoiled anyone's vacation plans!

In the tourist areas (Ixtapa, Acapulco, Cozumel, Ziahuatenejo, Cuernavaca)
you are still safe...  the problems for Americans begin when you get into
the interior.

Part of the problem is the devolution of civic life down there... a spate
of assassinations of journalists/reform politicians/labor leaders... the
country is swinging to the far right.  Cardenas represents the only hope
for poor...but I suspect that even he is afraid of being murdered (the
fate of Colosio, a man who was respected by the majority of Mexicans).
Cardenas has the backing of the labor unions and the peoplebut the
big money (pro-NAFTA people) are behind PAN and PRI.

Sadly, the "war against drugs" down there involves the shakedown of people
who want to reform the system.  Not much can be done to turn things
around...  The rich get richer and the poor get poorer... but until the
country stabilizes, Americans are foolish to wander down into the
interior..




On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Gerald Harp wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> In a message dated 1/5/99 6:05:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >
> >  About ten years ago, I drove into Mexico..  After having done so, I
> >  decided to never do it again
>
> Having heard similar things several times, i certainly believe you.  I spent
> the summer of 1962 in Mexico.  The crime rate was quite low despite the
> poverty.  More than once i found myself alone in poor areas of the city in the
> wee hours and felt perfectly safe.  What in the world has happened over the
> past 27 years?
>
> Jerry
>
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
> Archives Available at:
> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
> http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> 
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> Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Clinton Projects $76B Surplus

[Hilary Thomas]

Suddenly we no longer have a deficit?  Gee when 
did this happen?  The title of this article should be, "I can give you 
up to $76B if you keep me in office."
 
Hilary
 

JANUARY 06, 11:08 
EST
Clinton Projects $76B Surplus 

WASHINGTON (AP) — The administration today projected a budget surplus 
of more than $76 billion for this year. ``We can say the era of big deficits is 
over,'' President Clinton said. 
The president, convening a White House ceremony to tout the figure, 
immediately squelched any speculation that the extra revenue would be used to 
cut taxes. 
``Like any family with long-term financial needs and a little more earnings 
than we expected, we can't go out and spend the surplus today. We have to plan 
for the future,'' said Clinton. 
``Before we consider any new spending or tax cuts, first we must set this 
surplus aside until we save Social Security for the 21st century.'' He also 
cited ``investment needs'' in education and health research. 
The administration's Office of Management and Budget released its latest 
forecast for fiscal 1999, bringing the projected size of the surplus — for 
the budget year ending Sept. 30 — closer to congressional estimates of 
about $80 billion. 
The administration's newest estimate is significantly higher than its 
analysis last year, which estimated a fiscal 1999 surplus of $54.2 billion. 
``We can say the era of big deficits is over. We are now entering the second 
year of an era of surpluses,'' Clinton said. He noted that when he took office 
in 1993, the fiscal 1999 projections were for a $404 billion deficit. 
The Congressional Budget Office is due to release its own projections later 
this month, in advance of the president's annual budget submission to Congress. 
In its August update, CBO was even more optimistic than the president's budget 
analysts, projecting an $80 billion surplus for fiscal 1999. 
Come join InTheShadows (formally known as 
exploration).  This is a discussionlist dedicated to keeping up-to-date 
with new technologies, advancements inmedicine, environmental concerns, 
'conspiracy theories', politics, and, ofcourse, UFO stuff.  Discussion 
is encouraged.  Bashing and soapboxing will getyou bounced off the 
list.To subscribe, send a blank email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 

[CTRL] Michael: Criminalizing Homelessness

[Edward Britton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Michael:

<<>>

This would be fine, but how would the government "know" whom to protect
inasmuch as there is a significant portion of our population with no
political voice. Therefore this governmental attribute you hold so dear
becomes a defense mechanism for the elite. Hence the present chasm, in
this nation, between the have's and the have-not's.

<<>>

A) How do the mentally impaired fall under your rubric of "reaping the
net result of the choices they make"? How do those families--specifically
children-- displaced by economic down-turns fall under the rubric of "net
result of choice"?

B) It is fair by nature of the fact that the aforementioned gripers reap
a disproportionately large benefit from life in this society.

<<>>

"Social Darwinism" is hardly an emotive and hardly a term that I coined.
It refers to a general belief in the social equivalent of survival of the
fittest. Such a doctrine is fine in feudal systems, but once a social
system has been formed for the mutual benefit of all (civilization), such
doctrines become antiquated--or would if not revived by those of rightist
bent.  Choose one: feudal system or civilization (representative
democracy or otherwise) and be willing to pay the price for your
decision.

<<>>

Forgive me, Michael (actually this serves as partial re-inforcement of my
point about the compassionlessness and naivete'of the right), but, again,
at nineteen, I was oblivious of the need to prepare for the malevolent
economics of an equally malevolent president.

<<< Who chose to frivolous actions rather than saving for the 'rainy
day'?>>>

See above.

<<>>

This is the key deficiency in the understanding of those of rightist
affiliation: a great many people fall prey to circumstances beyond their
control, and well outside the realm of choice. One can stretch the
philosophy of "blame the victim" only so far before the argument becomes
rediculous.

<<>>

I am fearful of being run over by a system in which I have no
representation. I guess it's a matter of choosing who and by what means
should I be run over.

<<>>

Clearly a matter of interpretation :-)

Edward   ><>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Nat'l Guard, FEMA, and Y2K!!!!

[Edward Ford]

Hi Harry & Kinda,
Exactly, "wake up sheeple", when I read some of the naive post, re
y2k, I want to jump through my monitor and just shake some sense into to
these folks. Do the research, do the math. Do the "Domino Engine".
 
Y2K Domino Engine
or if your mail program does not read html, it's

http://www.y2knewswire.com/Y2Kengine.asp

With a 5% failure rate across the board, that calculates to a 58.2%
chance of Total Collapse! As Hamasaki say's "get out of the city, get out
of the city, get out of the city."

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

Actually, that's a good point about Clinton's silence, Kinda. But I
think
Rusty, by leaving off the quotation marks, made it appear as though
the views
he was quoting are his.

If I'm not mistaken, the only viewpoint that is his, and which should
read as
a wry commentary on the others, is, "Wake up sheeple"

Best,

Harry Allen

In a message dated 1/6/1999 2:02:55 PM, you wrote:

<< -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 99-01-06 12:31:30 EST, you write:

> It's only a bump in the road...it may be the biggest hype of the 20th
>  century...it's just a way for computer people to make moere
money...Y2k
>  is nothing...wake up sheeple
>
>  Rusty

Hi Rusty

How can you be so sure about y2k being a hype..what do you know that
the rest
of us don't know? If Clinton was on the air waves telling us how bad
things
are going to be because of y2k, then I would think it was a hype. As
long as
he is silent on the issue, I tend to believe that y2k is for real,
the big
question is whether or not y2k is a planned event. Clinton is the one
to
watch..it isn't in what he says, but what he doesn't say. I tend to
think that
y2k is a planned event just because of our "leaders" silence.

Kinda
>>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are
sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and
minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests
to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial
and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om
 

[CTRL] Nurev: Criminalizing Homelessness

[Edward Britton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Nu rev:

<<>>

This is because the forces of greed have a very short memory. I have
always believed that the more deprived of classes have been demonstrably
compassionate with the greedy over the years. After having regained
control of elitist plunder, they never seem to have the stomach for
making wealth in the face of poverty a capitol offense :-)

<<>>

But Nurev, this is entirely too pessimistic. One person's failed society
is another's new beginning. A little barbequed pig is a good thing, now
and then :-)

Edward  ><>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison]

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

YnrChyldzWyld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Howard R. Davis III wrote:
> >> But my guess is that God will treat each one of us by the way we treated
> >> the lesser species in our care/dominion...
>
> >Oh no, I killed a rat in my house the other day. Am I going to go to
> >hell?
>
> Only if God considers YOU a rat   ;-)
>
> Seriously, tho...I'm no vegetarian tree hugger...I have nothing against
> killing animals for food, or to keep one's environment sanitary...what I
> was referring to is how humanity as a whole treats SPECIES, not
> individual representatives of those species...
>
IIRC, Lord Dunsany wrote a story (may have been a radio play) about the human
race being put on trial for its treatment of other species. The judgment was
that humanity could be spared *only* if two species from Earth could be found
to speak in its favor. And two species did finally come forward...the Norway
rat and the mosquito...

Bob

=
Robert F. Tatman
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Nat'l Guard, FEMA, and Y2K!!!!

[Scramjet1]

 -Caveat Lector-

Actually, that's a good point about Clinton's silence, Kinda. But I think
Rusty, by leaving off the quotation marks, made it appear as though the views
he was quoting are his.

If I'm not mistaken, the only viewpoint that is his, and which should read as
a wry commentary on the others, is, "Wake up sheeple"



Best,


Harry Allen





In a message dated 1/6/1999 2:02:55 PM, you wrote:

<< -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 99-01-06 12:31:30 EST, you write:

> It's only a bump in the road...it may be the biggest hype of the 20th
>  century...it's just a way for computer people to make moere money...Y2k
>  is nothing...wake up sheeple
>
>  Rusty

Hi Rusty

How can you be so sure about y2k being a hype..what do you know that the rest
of us don't know? If Clinton was on the air waves telling us how bad things
are going to be because of y2k, then I would think it was a hype. As long as
he is silent on the issue, I tend to believe that y2k is for real, the big
question is whether or not y2k is a planned event. Clinton is the one to
watch..it isn't in what he says, but what he doesn't say. I tend to think that
y2k is a planned event just because of our "leaders" silence.

Kinda
>>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Rizzo approved the firebombing of the Philadelphia tenement..

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, nurev wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Brian Redman wrote:
> >
> >  -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > Anyone know if name "Frank Rizzo" rings a bell? Was/is he
> > mayor of Philadelphia? Or some other connection?
> >
> > Brian Redman   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.shout.net/~bigred/cn.html
> > Editor-in-Chief| ---Phone: 217-356-4418
> > Conspiracy Nation  |   "The perfect slave thinks he's free."
>
> Frank Rizzo was the fascist chief of police in Philla.
>
> J2
>
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
> Archives Available at:
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>
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> 
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>
> Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thank you, H.
Dee Brown's book is an outstanding work on the subject.  But many of our
conservative friends are leery of reading anything favorable about
"minority" Americans because they're afraid that it might be an example of
politically correct propaganda.

Sure.  During the 1970s, there was a rash of books that lauded the
accomplishments/achievements of people of color.  Perhaps much of the
material was poorly written and excessively laudatory...  But consider the
fact that the historical record has been distorted for so many years.
Look at Samuel Eliot Morison's racist remarks in his epic work on
Columbus.

I like Howard Zinn's "A People's History"...a good starting point for
my libertarian and conservative friends on the list..  tough love for the
right wingerswho need to take off their rosy-colored glasses when
posting on "the Founding Fathers."

I don't understand why reading about the history of Americans of color is
"politically correct," while for years, people of color have had to read
about the achievements/accomplishments of white Protestant males.
A little balance is called for...

We have nothing to fear but fear itself  (a dead white male said that...
didn't he?  :)
Regards,
Wm

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, H. Caulfield wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> >For a real wild history of America, read the Book of Mormon.<
>
> A very good non-fiction book about the native American wars is "Bury My
> Heart At Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown. It's a classic.
>
>
> --
> At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then
> there was still nothing. But you could see it.
>
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
> Archives Available at:
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>
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> 
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>
> Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fwd: THE DISNEY EMAIL TRACING PROGRAM STORY (fwd)]

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Check it out.  The story behind the hoax e-mail.
> Teo1000



Thanks. It seems this particular hoax is even more bizarre than I thought..and
the standard CTRL warning is even more important: "Caveat lector...let the
reader beware."

Bob



=
Robert F. Tatman
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NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed 
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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

YnrChyldzWyld has the stronger arguments in this exchange.  But in
fairness to Hawk, I think he is not arguing that Native American culture
was not without merit...just that European civilization brought with it
certain tech advantages...
OK.

I'm glad that some of you on the list are taking an interest in the Native
American contributions to American civilization  For those of you who
are interested in the evolution of the Constitution (and who believe that
it was strictly a British Lockean affair), you need to look at the role
the
Iroquois Confederacy played in serving as a model for the Const.  We know
that members of the Iroquois Nation attended the Constitutional Convention
(on invitation from Franklin).

Also- for those of you who are interested in Elizabeth Cady Stanton and
the women's rights movement--recent scholarship has revealed that the
Founding Mothers of the Women's Rights Movement (Seneca Falls, NY 1848)
were very much aware of the elevated position of women in the Seneca
traditional culture...  Native Americans were present at the 1848
convention in New York to give support to the idea of suffrage, equal
rights for women, etc.  The Seneca served as a model for these early
feminists.  Check it out if you disbelieve me.
Regards,
Wm

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> YnrChyldzWyld wrote:
>
> >  -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > The preponderance of 'Indian mounds' throughout the eastern U.S. would
> > tend to belie your contention that the Native Americans were incapable of
> > producing anything...
>
> I never contended such a thing
>
> > Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you
> > think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish?
>
> Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught
> them?
>
> > The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent
> > on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional
> > 'gathering'...just like the European settlers...
>
> But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than
> handcrafts.
>
> > These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum,
> > and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own
> > Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people...
>
> Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy?  Give me a
> break!
>
> > >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited
> > >by starving people...
> >
> > The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians
> > when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved,
> > and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food,
> > what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive...
>
> I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and
> fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived over here?
>
> Hawk
>
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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> Om
>

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Nat'l Guard, FEMA, and Y2K!!!!

[Edward Ford]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hi Kinda,
Sorry if you misunderstood my sarcastic tone. see below...

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> In a message dated 99-01-06 12:31:30 EST, you write:
>
> > It's only a bump in the road...it may be the biggest hype of the 20th
> >  century...it's just a way for computer people to make moere money...Y2k
> >  is nothing...wake up sheeple
> >
> >  Rusty
>
> Hi Rusty
>
> How can you be so sure about y2k being a hype..what do you know that the rest
> of us don't know?

Can't say I know more than anyone else on the subject, I have, however, been
researching the problem for close to 3 years and on a scale of 1 to 10, I give Y2K
a minimum of an 8 Could be much, much worse. I fully expect panic, martial
law, rationing, riots, the whole enchilada!

> If Clinton was on the air waves telling us how bad things
> are going to be because of y2k, then I would think it was a hype. As long as
> he is silent on the issue, I tend to believe that y2k is for real, the big
> question is whether or not y2k is a planned event.

Planned, doubtful. BUT untilized for THEIR purposes...probably. Ever heard of the
UN's Global 2000 Report, overseen by Kissenger, commissioned by Jimmy Carter,
calls for a reduction in plantary population by 80% by the year 2000. Let's see
that's 80% of 6 Billion, Hummm, that's 4.8 Billion dead in the next 11 and one
half months. I will be very surprised if there is a presidential election next
year due to the "bug".

> Clinton is the one to
> watch..it isn't in what he says, but what he doesn't say. I tend to think that
> y2k is a planned event just because of our "leaders" silence.
>
> Kinda
>

Can't argue with that.

Cheers,
Rusty

> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
> Archives Available at:
> http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
>
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> 
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> Om

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Frank Rizzo: Name Ring A Bell?]

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Brian Redman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anyone know if name "Frank Rizzo" rings a bell? Was/is he
> mayor of Philadelphia? Or some other connection?

Frank Rizzo was the Mayor of Philadelphia for two terms during the 1970's. He
had been Police Commissioner, and was renowned for his toughness. (He was in
office in 1978 at the time of the first MOVE siege and shootout.) His son
Frank Jr. is presently a member of Philadelphia's City Council, and just
unveiled a truly *ugly* statue of his father in front of the Municipal
Services Building.

Bob

=
Robert F. Tatman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Nat'l Guard, FEMA, and Y2K!!!!

[KFord74987]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 99-01-06 12:31:30 EST, you write:

> It's only a bump in the road...it may be the biggest hype of the 20th
>  century...it's just a way for computer people to make moere money...Y2k
>  is nothing...wake up sheeple
>
>  Rusty

Hi Rusty

How can you be so sure about y2k being a hype..what do you know that the rest
of us don't know? If Clinton was on the air waves telling us how bad things
are going to be because of y2k, then I would think it was a hype. As long as
he is silent on the issue, I tend to believe that y2k is for real, the big
question is whether or not y2k is a planned event. Clinton is the one to
watch..it isn't in what he says, but what he doesn't say. I tend to think that
y2k is a planned event just because of our "leaders" silence.

Kinda

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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[CTRL] Amnesty International Faults U.S. on Human Rights

[Agent Smiley]

>
>  Activist Mailing List - http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/
>
>  Edited/Distributed by HURINet - The Human Rights Information Network
>
>  [This article has been excerpted.]
>
>   Amnesty International Faults U.S. on Human Rights=20
>  By KALPANA SRINIVASAN
>
>  WASHINGTON, 5.10.98 (AP): The United States measures other countries
>  against a lofty ideal when it comes to human rights, but it frequently
>  violates these standards within its own borders, Amnesty International
>  contends.
>
>  From prisoners forced to wear shock-emitting stun belts to police who
>  beat suspects without cause, the 153-page report provides the group's
>  first comprehensive look at human rights violations in the United
>  States.
>
>  Amnesty International accuses the United States of maintaining a
>  double standard: criticizing other countries while not abiding by
>  international treaties and principles of human rights itself. The
>  United States...has failed to sign the U.N. Convention on the Rights
>  of the Child, which seeks to promote human rights for children.
>
>  ``When the U.S. house is not in order, it makes it far harder for the
>  U.S. to take the kind of leadership role in international human rights
>  that many of us in Amnesty would like to see it take,'' says William
>  Schulz, executive director of the American chapter of the London-based
>  organization.
>
>  Amnesty, a longtime vocal opponent of capital punishment, admonished
>  the United States for its continued use of the death penalty. The
>  country should move to abolish the system, which is ``racist,
>  arbitrary and unfair,'' the group said.
>
>  U.S. authorities have executed more than 350 prisoners since 1990, and
>  another 3,300 prisoners await execution on death row, the report
>  noted, and some states execute juveniles and persons with mental
>  retardation.
>
>  International standards dictate...law enforcement officers should use
>  force only as a last resort and in proportion to the threat they
>  encounter. But the report accuses police of frequently disregarding
>  these standards, beating and abusing suspects unnecessarily.
>
>  The 1997 case of Abner Louima, a Haitian immigrant allegedly tortured
>  by New York City police, recently propelled the problem into the
>  public spotlight. ...the report also points to abuses in other cities
>  such as Philadelphia _ where police allegedly conducted unjustified
>  traffic stops and searches, particularly on minorities _ and
>  Pittsburgh _ where drug squad officers allegedly planted evidence on
>  suspects and falsified reports.
>
>  The report criticizes officers who use stun guns _ a handheld device
>  with two metal prongs that emits an electric shot _ or who ``hogtie''
>  suspects by binding their wrists and ankles together.
>
>  Stun guns, like any tool, can be misused, said a spokesman for the
>  National Association of Chiefs of Police. But ``it's actually one of
>  the better devices, if used properly,'' said Gerald Arenberg.
>
>  Arenberg also acknowledged...police can benefit from oversight, urging
>  those who believe they have been victimized to contact such
>  authorities as the FBI or state attorney.
>
>  ``I think we do need someone watching over our shoulders,'' Arenberg
>  said.
>
>  Prison facilities are another site of frequent human rights
>  violations, the report alleges, saying inmates fall victim to
>  excessive force by guards, sexual abuse by fellow inmates and cruel
>  use of restraints, such as leg-irons and restraint chairs.
>
>  Some prisoners are forced to wear remote control stun belts, which
>  emit a shock when activated by guards. The stun belts, used by the
>  U.S. Bureau of Prisons, 100 county agencies and at least 16 state
>  correctional facilities, cause severe pain and incapacitation, says
>  the report.
>
>  ``Amnesty International believes...such devices are inherently subject
>  to, and even invite, abuse,'' the report says.
>
>  While the United States prides itself as a haven for the persecuted,
>  asylum seekers often end up thrown in jail, detained indefinitely and
>  treated as criminals, says the report.
>
>  Immigration and Naturalization Service officials stressed ...people
>  are not detained simply for seeking asylum and denied...they are
>  detained for prolonged periods.
>
>  ``The seeking of asylum is not what gets you in detention,'' said INS
>  spokesman Andrew Lluberes. Those who enter the country without proper
>  documents or who falsify their identity can be placed in the expedited
>  removal process, but can be granted asylum by an immigration judge, he
>  said.
>
>  He added...from October 1997 to October 1998, the 523 people who were
>  eventually ordered removed by an immigration judge stayed an average
>  of 59 days. Another 709 spent 34 days in detention while their claims
>  were heard and 640 spent 93 days in detention before appearing before
>  an immigration judge.
>
>  Part of a yearlong campaign focusing on hum

[CTRL] Fwd: Konformist: The Prosecution of Jim Goad

[RoadsEnd]

Please send as far and wide as possible.

Thanks,

Robert Sterling
Editor, The Konformist
http://www.konformist.com

http://www.konformist.com/1999/jimgoad.htm

From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Contact Jim or the authorities

Feel Free to distribute this information far and wide ...

On May 29th, according to a Portland, OR prosecutor, Jim Goad "kidnapped"
his ex-girlfriend, Sky Ryan. It seems the two ex-lovebirds were fighting in
Jim's car as Jim drove for about 20 minutes through populated areas of town,
obeying all the traffic rules, stopping at red lights and not doing anything
reckless. Goad did not have or use any weapon, use any force, or even make
threats to keep his spurned, but very angry ex-girlfriend in the car with
him.

The car doors were not locked -- a fact made clear when the alleged "kidnap"
victim, Sky Ryan, tired of her harrowing "kidnap" experience and effected a
daring escape by the simple tactic of opening the car door and getting out.

There is no evidence Jim Goad wanted anything more than to get this woman
OUT of his car. He had, after all, taken out a restraining order against Sky
Ryan, which was still in effect at the time and which she had already
violated more than once.

Once Sky Ryan, was a sufficient distance away from Jim Goad so as to no
longer be in violation of the restraining order, her next move was to accuse
Jim Goad of a string of assaults and, of course, kidnapping. She also kindly
provided the prosecutor with copies of Goad's writings.


The prosecutor, Mr. Rod Underhill, was so outraged by the content of Goad's
social commentary and anti-authoritarian writings he declared Jim Goad to be
"vile" and "not human." He announced his intention to use Jim Goad's
writings against him in court (AP Wire service). Goad was arrested and
tossed into a cage on May 31st 1998.

Six months later, Jim Goad remains in that cage. In this time, charges
against the "controversial" author of Redneck Manifesto (Simon & Schuster
1997) and publisher of the zine Answer Me!, have been shuffled and
reshuffled while his bail has been steadily jacked up to its current sum of
... $760,000! He faces 25 YEARS in maximum security prison.

IT IS DIFFICULT to say what Jim Goad could have done to deserve this, given
the facts surrounding the incident described above. Even the prosecutor, Mr.
Underhill, has demonstrated a marked inability to decide which crimes he
wants to accuse Goad of committing. So far, this persecutor has made two
trips to his "Grand Jury" to fashion a bizarre array of kidnapping and
assualt charges.

Using the naked "administrative" powers entrusted to him by the People of
Oregon, Underhill has jammed his prey into a cell too small for a veal calf,
where Jim Goad is forced to spend 22 HOURS A DAY awaiting the chance to
prove what the law says is PRESUMED: that he is INNOCENT.

>From the beginning, Underhill's announced he intends to use the
defendant's writings against him at a "trial" revealed not only his contempt
for freedom of speech and a colossal ignorance of the rules of evidence --
it revealed just how light he is in the proof department. Other than Goad's
publishing efforts from years ago he has only Sky Ryan's confusing and
admittedly vindictive accusations as "evidence."

The persecutor has already made good on his threat to use Jim Goad's
writings against him to cause him harm. At Jim's bail reduction hearing,
Underhill used ANSWER ME! #4 (the "rape" issue) to change the mind of a key
witness: The sheriff in whose hands Jim's freedom lay. The sheriff said he
had intended to recommend Goad be set free -- as is standard for a defendant
who has no prior ciminal history, whose guilt is in serious doubt, and who
poses no flight risk. But, the sheriff told the Court, after reading the
materials selected and provided to him by the persecutor, he now agreed with
Underhill that Jim Goad should never see the light of day.

There was no other testimony against Jim Goad that day.

Jim's lackluster (court-appointed) defense attorney failed to stop this sort
of "evidence' but did mention Jim's utter lack of criminal record. To this,
persecutor Underhill screeched his refusal to believe such a thing was
possible! Even though his own Pig Brother database revealed no such record,
Underhill fairly stamped his feet as he protested that he just "knew" it
couldnt' be so. To back up his bullshit claim, the persecutor said he relied
on something he had read in the first issue of ANSWER ME! published in 1991.

Thus, Jim Goad's right to reasonable bail, was denied.

It's not easy to get Underhill to elaborate on any of his viewpoints,
however. With very few exceptions, the prosecuting attorney and PUBLIC
SERVANT refuses to provide any information about the case to journalists,
including a query from a reporter at the National Law Journal, whom he
refused to provide a copy of either of the indictments he has obtained
against Jim Goad.

I myself spent a whole day trying to obtain a copy of this s

Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hawk,
Thank you for serving our country.  As a veteran, you put your life on the
line for the country and that is to be respected.  That's why I don't
quite understand your political position.

I'm descended from people who owned slaves.  If you want to look in the
historical records of the state of North Carolina, you will find that
twenty-two members of my family fought FOR the Confederacy.  They were not
"bad" people...they thought they were fighting for their friends and
neighbors...defending their "southern way of life," a way of life that
involved the enslavement of human beings...  My grandfather, born in 1886,
would tell me stories about how much our family loved their slaves..how
well they treated them, etc.  My grandfather wasn't deliberately lying...
sure, my family loved the slaves.  They were valuable property.  And they
treated them humanely (if one can argue that owning a human being is a
humane idea).  They didn't separate family members...  I still have
visions of my grandfather, old H.B., sitting in his chair, puffing on his
cigar, telling me about how much the family lived their "."  My
grandfather was a product of his generation.

And,for your information, the family had stories of the damned Yankees who
came into North Carolina, seizing the food and valuables of everyone.  In
order to save their smoked hams, the family placed discolored flour on the
cuts of meat, hoping that the Yankees would think them poisoned.  I was
raised on Civil War stories and states rights arguments.

Most white southerners were too poor to own slaves.  Slavery was a complex
institution--the large operations in the Deep South (cotton) were run
differently from the the tobacco plantations of the border states (Ky,
Tenn, NC and Virginia)...  But slavery was an evil institution.  ...and
it brutalized both the slaves AND their owners.

In order to justify the system, white Southerners had to practice a form
of denial.  How many Yankee boys had to have their guts and brains blown
out to put an end to slavery?  The Civil War was a vicious, evil
affair...all
of that nobility/romanticism/chivalry crap is a false portrait that does a
disservice to both sides of the conflict.

When the southern military commanders took up arms against their
government...that was a TREASONOUS act in my book. At the very least, they
should have been
barred from political office when they returned home from the war.  And in
my opinion, the Union was far too conciliatory in their treatment of
people who had taken up arms against it.
Murderous scum like Nathan Bedford Forrest, the heinous commander who
supervised the massacare of Union soldiers at Fort Pillow, Tenn., were
allowed to remain at large  The Klan was the inevitable product of
their treasonous activities...

On my grandmother's side of the family, the Curtis clan, they were
northerners who served with the Wisconsin Volunteers during the Miss
Valley campaign.  Old "Grandpa Em," (named after Ralph Waldo
Emerson) answered his country's call to duty and wore a blue uniform
during the war.  The Curtis family, descended from New England Yankees
who had settled into the Upper Midwest during the 1850s, believed that
slavery was a stain upon the nation's honor.  The Curtis family were
hardheaded, stubborn people who believed that no human being should be the
property of another.  And they could point to Biblical passages that
celebrated the idea of freedom and the dignity of the individual (the same
Bible being read by my southern forebears).  They weren't interested in
getting a handout from the government. They believed in hard
work and personal integrityThey were proud to consider themselves
American.  Both my Tunstall and Curtis forebears were descended from
people who had participated in Revolutionary War.

But in that terrible conflict which side would point the way to a better
future?  a better America?  Do you really believe that the United States
would have been better off to have tolerated the institution of slavery?
...that the enslavement of human beings was a good idea?  Do you believe
that the New South of today would have been possible if the days of Jim
Crow would have continued?

The Union was in the right to put an end to slavery.  The South was in the
wrong.  The issue has been decided.

Regards,
Wm


On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
>
> >  -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > Re: "sending kids off to war."  Your caustic comment notwithstanding, you
> > nor I wouldn't be enjoying the freedoms we do have, if it wasn't for the
> > sacrifice of others...  Perhaps, they were "stupid" to fight for this
> > country.  I don't think so.
>
> They, and I was one of "them", did not do anything that promoted freedom in this 
>country.  We
> killed folks IN THEIR COUNTRY.  I've been in five wars (OK, some were small wars, 
>but it was
> wholesale killing non-the-less) in "my country's" uniform.  And in NOT A SINGLE

Re: [CTRL] THE SCOOP: Race, Walk, Run, & Shout

[JoAnne Schmitz]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:33:52 -0700, you, Hilary Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
wrote:

>OK.  Trent Lott.  The Senate Majority Leader.  He's really tight with
>the Council of Conservative Citizens.
>
>That's every bit as newsworthy as who anybody is sleeping with, isn't
>it?
>
>I mean, [isn't it?]
>
>You want to know more?  Check out the stories by Thomas Edsall online at
>http://www.washingtonpost.com.

I couldn't find any articles that link Lott with the CCC.  Are they more than 14
days old?  The Post free archive only goes back that far.

I found two articles by Edsall, and though one was about Lott, it did not
mention the CCC.

-JoAnne

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] New CIA Documents On Clinton Crypto

[Agent Smiley]

>
>  Activist Mailing List - http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/
>
>  /* -- "New CIA Documents On Clinton Crypto" -- */
>  http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_smith/19981215_xcsof_give_it_to.shtml
>
>  The CIA has released new documents written in 1996 showing Vice
>  President Al Gore ordered the CIA to enforce strict controls on mass
>  market security software for personal computers.
>
>  The documents were discovered at the Department of Commerce and were
>  released by the CIA in response to a Freedom of Information (FOIA)
>  request.  The CIA documents are two memos written by CIA Director John
>  Deutch to President Clinton and Vice President Al Gore.
>
>  The CIA reports detail Federal government efforts to monitor computer
>  communications such as email, using a technique to secretly intercept
>  and decode any messages.  According to the CIA Director, the back-door
>  keys were to be held by "key recovery agents" licensed by the Commerce
>  Department.
>
>  According to one document, a memo written by CIA Director Deutch, Gore
>  ordered the CIA to tell the Commerce Department to take a "tougher
>  approach to licensing."  The memo states Gore ordered the CIA to
>  "tighten the control regime for encryption products that do not
>  support key recovery."
>
>  Janet Reno, according to Deutch, took a much harder line, supporting
>  an all out Federal take-over of the industry.  The Justice Department,
>  proposed "legislation that would ... ban the import and domestic
>  manufacture, sale or distribution of encryption that does not have key
>  recovery."
>
>  The CIA Director, backed by the Commerce Department, rejected the Reno
>  proposals in favor of a so called "middle of the road approach."
>  According to the CIA, "We have rejected the policy option of mandatory
>  control because we believe legislation to ban use of encryption in
>  private communications will not be adopted here or abroad, notably in
>  Germany and Japan."
>
>  The memos include the CIA Director's blank copy of a Presidential
>  executive order that was later signed by President Clinton in
>  November, 1996.  The CIA written executive order transferred control
>  of encryption technology to the Commerce Department.  The order
>  transferred authority for both mass media software and formerly
>  military items such as radios, and satellite telemetry systems
>  hardened against atomic warfare.
>
>  Mass media encryption software is freely available over the Internet
>  and sold in retail outlets.  There are currently NO domestic
>  regulations covering the private or business use of security software
>  in the United States.  The software is used to protect medical,
>  financial and personal information.
>
>  The Clinton administration considers such PC software to be a threat.
>  Law enforcement claims encryption technology could be used by
>  criminals and terrorists.  The Clinton administration considers mass
>  market software a "munition" and strictly controls exports with felony
>  charges backed by the Department of Justice.
>
>  Clinton's plan was to force U.S. computer makers to build back-doors
>  into their products in order to obtain an export license.  The CIA
>  Director wrote to Clinton, "Our principle lever is exports controls,
>  which can influence industry because it seeks to develop products that
>  work worldwide.  Thus, our proposal would ease export controls in
>  exchange for industry commitment to build key recovery products and
>  supporting infrastructure."
>
>  Clearly, the Clinton administration was aware of the futile operation
>  to control PC software available in the retail market. The CIA report
>  detailing the imposition of strict controls contradicts an earlier
>  May, 1996, Commerce Department document.
>
>  The May 1996 Commerce document details a meeting with the CIA, FBI and
>  Department of Justice.  The document states "Efforts to maintain tight
>  controls on encryption in the 'Internet age' lack credibility,
>  threaten to impose real costs on U.S. industry and, its
>  competitiveness, and are becoming a political embarrassment for the
>  Administration."
>
>  According to the 1996 Commerce document, "Lost in the debate, but not
>  irrelevant, is the fact that it is virtually impossible to enforce
>  export control's against them when they can be exported by phone and
>  modem or/in someone's pocket."
>
>  Clearly, it is far easier to control multi-million dollar military
>  grade items than low cost PC software.  Rare or hard to build
>  electronics such as radiation hardened, encrypted, telemetry control
>  for satellites, are not available to the general public nor would they
>  be of much use.  Military communications, such as secure satellite
>  control systems, are built to withstand the intense radiation of space
>  or nuclear warfare.
>
>  There is no doubt that the Chinese military sought such items for
>  their strategic nuclear forces.  For example, in Febr

Re: [CTRL] Communicating Via Microwave Auditory Effect

[Agent Smiley]

 -Caveat Lector-

Wasn't Nikolai Tesla working on this stuff a hundred years ago?

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

[CTRL] Fwd: Konformist: Beast of the Month - December 1998

[RoadsEnd]

Please send as far and wide as possible.

Thanks,

Robert Sterling
Editor, The Konformist
http://www.konformist.com

A Konformist Special
Beast of the Month - December 1998
Congressman Henry Hyde, Two-Faced GOP Leader

"I yam an anti-Christ..."
John Lydon (aka Johnny Rotten) of The Sex Pistols, "Anarchy in the UK"

"If this becomes the occasion to conduct civil war by other means, we will
have a weakened Presidency and do no credit to ourselves.  We will also weaken
the confidence of other people and other nations that our democracy can really
work.  Our Founding Fathers fashioned this country so that there would be
tensions between the executive and legislative branches. But there are
creative tensions and there are destructive tensions."
Congressman Henry Hyde, during the Iran-Contra hearings


Until this last election, no party holding the White House has gained seats in
a midterm election since 1934, with an average loss of 27 seats. That stat
doesn't explain just how unlikely the event is, as 1934 came on the heels of
the extremely popular New Deal program of FDR.  Further, not since 1822 (176
years for those counting) has the party in the White House picked up seats in
the middle of the second term of a President.  With that kind of precedent
alone, a Republican smash should have been expected, but compound that with
the fact that the Democrats are lead by an already mistrusted character who,
rather than offering a New Deal, had admitted less than three months before
the election that he received a blowjob in the Oval Office with a college age
intern and then lied about it under oath (well, actually he didn't owe up to
lying, which makes it even worse) and it is clear that the GOP should have
crushed the Democrats badly.

And yet, they didn't.

Granted, there has been some hype over the results of this election: despite
the minor losses of seats in the House of Representatives and the wash in the
Senate, the GOP still controls both houses of Congress, as well as over 60
percent of all state governorships.  But aside from the perhaps disturbing
victory of two of George Bush's sons in Texas and Florida for the respective
governor's race, 1998 was an embarrassing year for the Republicans.  Among the
more notable results:

* In Washington State, Incumbent Patty Murray beat U.S. Rep. Linda Smith, a
Christian right conservative, and her group of devoted supporters known as
"Linda's Army".

* In California, limousine-liberal Barbara Boxer staged a come-from-behind win
against challenger Matt Fong.

* Also in California, Loretta Sanchez whipped Robert "B-1 Bob" Dornan in
Orange County (who still insists he's a victim of a "conspiracy" of liberals
and Hispanics to get him out of office through vote fraud) in their rematch, a
loss that will hopefully end his loud-mouthed, buffoonish political career.

* In New York, in what may have been the ultimate "Stalin vs. Hitler" choice
of the year, the ethically dubious Senator Pothole Al D'Amato lost decisively
to Charles Schumer, who is most noted for his vicious attack on the victims of
the Waco massacre.

* In North Carolina, Lauch Faircloth (whose chum, David Sentelle, appointed
Kenneth Starr and helped create the whole Peckergate scandal) was upended by
challenger John Edwards.

* Finally, again in California and perhaps most important of all, Gray Davis
(a "New Democrat" of the Klinton mode sans the charisma) whipped the oily and
frighteningly reactionary California Attorney General Dan Lungren by 20
points, in what was labeled by George Will as "the big prize." giving
California a Democrat governor for the first time in sixteen years, back when
a man named Jerry Brown was dating Linda Rondstadt.


Needless to say, the results were devastating.  About the only thing that
could've made things worse would be if the GOP had been foolish enough to run
Dr. Death's lawyer in a race (whoops, that actually was the Democrats, in one
of their few more notable defeats.)  But it was bad enough that Newt Gingrich
felt compelled to resign, proving that the only sin punishable in politics
isn't lying or adultery, but failure.

All of this brings up a good question: what the hell happened?

The answer to this can certainly be debated, but one answer that seems likely
comes from none other than Michael Moore, the award-winning documentary film
director of "Roger & Me", "The Big One", and the t.v. show "TV Nation".  On
October 8, in what amounts to the second most famous email of the year (after
Matt Drudge's scoop on the Lewinsky affair), Michael Moore urged people to
vote a straight Democratic ticket in November, in part to take over the party,
and in part as a repudiation of what he felt were blatantly sleazy tactics by
the GOP.  His strategy can be questioned, but it is clear that his message
resonated with many: whatever faults Slick Willie may have (and they are
many), he still was elected to the White House by the American public, and the
Republican's gleeful attempt 

[CTRL] Tyranny by any name ... was something else.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hawk:
  You shouldn't and neither should I. Do I have health insurance or do I
get
  you to pay for my stupidity by going to the emergency room?

   Can't you see that what you are attacking is socialism?

nurev:
You don't know what the hell you're talking about do you?

Hawk:
  How, pray tell, do you get me  to pay for your emergency room, unless
  you elect some thugs to extort my money to pay it?

nurev:
That's not socialism you idiot. That's democracy. And that's what
 I'm talking about in all these posts. I'm not talking about being a
dictator like Hitler, Mao, or Joe Steel as your moronic compatriot
claimed in a related post. I'm talking about what we citizens decide
democratically.

 babbling moronisms


MJ:
What you fail to grasp is this 50%+1 is the SAME as those who would
rule by THEIR whim (listed above as Hitler, Mao ...) .  The ideal brought
forth above is quite true whether you admit to the Statist Ideal or deem
it 'democracy' ... you desire some Thugs (known as Government) to
FORCE others to activities which they may not desire to participate
IF at least one more than half of them deem it a 'good' idea.

Democracy gave this nation separate water fountains at one time.
Democracy has given this nation an unbearable tax burden of close to 50%.
Democracy is the form of rule which 'hangs' a man because the other 9
present 'voted' for it.

These happened in America  ... because the American Government FAILED
to follow its mandate and operate like the rights protecting Republic it was
designed.

Regard$,
--MJ

Except in the sacred texts of democracy and in the incantations of
orators, we hardly take the trouble to pretend that the rule of the
majority is not at bottom a rule of force. What other virtue can
there be in fifty-one percent except the brute fact that fifty-one
is more than forty-nine? The rule of fifty-one per cent is a
convenience, it is for certain matters a satisfactory political
device, it is for others the lesser of two evils, and for others it
is acceptable because we do not know any less troublesome method of
obtaining a political decision. But it may easily become an absurd
tyranny if we regard it worshipfully, as though it were more than a
political device. We have lost all sense of its true meaning wheen
we imagine that the opinion of fifty-one per cent is in some high
fashion the true opinion of the whole hundred per cent, or indulge
in the sophistry that the rule of a majority is based upon the ultimate
equality of man.  -- Walter Lippmann

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Nat'l Guard, FEMA, and Y2K!!!!

[Edward Ford]

 -Caveat Lector-

It's only a bump in the road...it may be the biggest hype of the 20th
century...it's just a way for computer people to make moere money...Y2k
is nothing...wake up sheeple

Rusty





  By David M. Bresnahan
  © 1999 WorldNetDaily.com

  The National Guard is planning its first
  national mobilization of troops since 1940 in
  preparation for civil unrest resulting from the
  Y2K millennium bug, WorldNetDaily has
  learned.

  The National Guard Bureau in Washington is
  currently formulating plans for a mobilization
  test, in conjunction with the Federal
  Emergency Management Agency. If Y2K
  causes a complete shutdown of all
  communications, the National Guard will need
  a way to mobilize troops, according to several
  officers who believe their careers would be at
  risk if their names were made public.

  These officers spoke separately with
  WorldNetDaily. Each is in a position to know
  about the plans at a national level within the
  National Guard Bureau.

  "What's driving this thing are the folks
  underneath the senior leadership," said one
  officer. "Some of the IT guys and command
  and control guys are the ones who are driving
  this because they see what the problem is,"
  one of the sources told WorldNetDaily in an
  exclusive interview.

  The plan as it is now being designed, will be a
  mock mobilization of all 480,000 members of
  the National Guard in all 54 states and
  territories. Exercise COMEX/MOBEX will be
  conducted without telephone, radio, or
  television to get the word to all guard
  members.

  "This will be a simulated COMM-Out,"
  explained another member of the group. "In
  other words, the standard method of recall, the
  telephone, will not be an option. The driver for
  this exercise is Y2K," she added.

  Concern about potential panic and unrest over
  Y2K failures of communications, power, and
  transportation has prompted the National
  Guard Bureau to plan for the worst. If such a
  scenario occurs, the guard will need to be
  mobilized through some means other than
  standard electronic communications.

  Exercise COMEX/MOBEX will be a test, not
  an actual mobilization. Guard members will be
  contacted, but they will not actually have to
  report.

  WorldNetDaily spoke with several full-time
  guard members who work at the national level.
  Each is an officer, and each is concerned that
  the public is not being properly informed of the
  extent and seriousness of problems -- including
  civil liberties issues -- associated with the Y2K
  computer bug.

  "I've taken an oath, and I don't see some of
  the senior folks following through on their
  oath," explained one officer of his reasons for
  making this known. "Not only is my oath to
  the Constitution, but it's to the people. As far
  as I'm concerned, the faster and sooner people
  are educated on this stuff the less panic will
  ensue."

  Another officer is equally concerned and
  agreed. He pointed out that people panic when
  they are caught unprepared and unaware. He
  says the Clinton administration should be doing
  more to prevent panic.

  "No one with any leadership has stepped
  forward and said we need to take prudent
  steps," he explained. "The Canadians are way
  ahead on this. They've already told their folks.
  They're doing a good job of letting their people
  know what's going on."

  WorldNetDaily has also learned that all
  military and civilian federal employees are
  scheduled to be paid a little differently in
  December 1999. Payroll for January 2000 will
  be paid a month early. One of the officers says
  that is to place guard members in a situation
 

[CTRL] [Future-Cities] Re: Housing Crisis, Y2K, Holy Body Tattoo Jan. 6 on Studio BC (fwd)

[Franklin Wayne Poley]

 -Caveat Lector-

Johnson's boring and repetitious libertarian-fascist chant reminds me of
Laskin's comment on squeejee kids below. "Let them eat cake" was more
intelligent than what we get from morons like that.
FWP.

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:18:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Franklin Wayne Poley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Future-Cities] Re: Housing Crisis, Y2K, Holy Body Tattoo Jan. 6 on Studio BC 
(fwd)

From: Franklin Wayne Poley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Dear Mayor Owen: During yesterday's Council meeting on housing and
homelessness you mentioned that you had spoken to two "squeejee kids" now
working here and formerly from Toronto. Mayor Laskin was on tv a couple
of months ago and he too reported on his talk with squeejee kids. Laskin
said that (1) they were lazy-didn't want to work; (2) they "wanted to
start at the top". Seeing someone working hard at car washing it is
amazing that anyone could make such statements. They are simply untrue do
you not agree?
   Every Vancouver Councillor who spoke commented explicitly or
implicitly that this problem requires co-ordinated action at all levels.
I suggest also looking at INTERNATIONAL models for solutions. Please go
to http://users.uniserve.com/~culturex and link to the Mondragon, Spain
project. This worker owned conglomerate with 30,000 employee-shareholders
even has its own university. Canada's annual population increase of
300,000 would populate three Mondragons. I have posted previously that
the next time ELP pickets the Fraser Institute, Dr. Walker should
surprise them and invite them in to sit at the Board Room table and
discuss the formation of a Mondragon-like company. If Mayor Laskin were
to do that he would find out fast who the lazy bums are (they do exist)
and who the workers are.
Sincerely-FWP.

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:09:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Franklin Wayne Poley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Madelaine Halls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], fairvotingbc@bigfoot, [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Future-Cities] Re: Housing Crisis, Y2K, Holy Body Tattoo Jan. 6 on Studio BC

From: Franklin Wayne Poley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I don't know if you want to use this list as an announcement list only or
whether you want some discussion. Let me know. In the event that you want
some discussion let me say that affordable housing depends on having (1)
affordable land; (2) an affordable "housing system" for home construction.
Affordable land means "decanting" population to new urban centres. In BC
you can buy land in the interior and north for a few hundred dollars/acre.
An affordable housing system is a method of construction which uses
reasonably priced components and allows the lay home builder to assemble
the home using simple tools and following plain language instructions. In
other words this is the "home kit" approach. There are many ways to
design such home kits but I am pleased with what four steel experts have
told me. They are cc'd. As a result of what they have told me I have put
together a proposal for course which I would teach (at VVC or BCIT or ?)
to help the lay home builder to use such a kit. I am now trying to
arrange the purchase of a demo/instructional kit for a 20 ft. x 30 ft.
cottage from Earth-Sense Steel. It would be owned by the college and it
would be designed so that it can be assembled and disassembled many times
for many teachings of the course. However we need a grant so I am asking
in this email if Jenny Kwan's Muncipal Affairs Ministry or any of the
guests on your show tomorrow can direct me to a source of funding.
Sincerely-FWP.

PS-Providing employment at remote sites where land is affordable is
another matter but outside the scope of the present discussion. See
http://www.alternatives.com/fc and http://users.uniserve.com/~culturex

--

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Madelaine Halls wrote:

> STUDIO BC
> WEDNESDAY JANUARY 6, 1999
> LIVE, 8 PM on KNOWLEDGE NETWORK
>
> CAN THE PRIVATE SECTOR SOLVE BC's HOUSING CRISIS?
> DEBATE
> Housing is one of the basic necessities -- and in BC, the challenge of
> finding affordable housing has never been greater.  In key cities like
> Vancouver and Victoria, as well as emerging smaller centres like Nelson,

Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ:
   So protection of property should NOT be the function of government?
   What should?

Edward:
   That's easy. According to Social Darwinists, it should be the crushing
   protective arm of the parasitic elite. You know, the ones who gripe about
   having to pay their share of living in a free society, and can't understand
   why people who "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" keep falling
over?
MJ:
What exactly is 'their share'?
Government should serve ONLY to provide ALL individuals protection fron
FORCE and FRAUD ... certainly that should take closer to 5% of one's
earnings rather than 50% plus.

For the Government to 'care for' or 'provide for' these urban outdoorsmen
(who are reaping the net result of the CHOICES they made) it must first
TAKE from others.  How is this 'fair' to those 'gripers' you describe above?

Throwing around emotives like 'Social Darwinists' ... if one has the
RIGHT to survival ... he has the RIGHT to enslave another for such
a purpose.



Edward from a different form of this thread:
   Who said I was compassionate: more like I know "their" side of things.
   I've been there and done that, thanks to one of those "great Republicans."
MJ:
Yes, this is typical ... blame *ANYONE* but one's self.  Who -- exactly -- made
those choices which placed you in the predicament?  Who failed to plan for
this predicament?  Who failed to 'diversify' your abilities/qualifications?
Who chose to frivolous actions rather than saving for the 'rainy day'?



Edward from a different form of this thread:
   Of course, that's what Republicans and Libertarians do: they gain their
   popularity, as fascists always have, by stepping on the ones who cannot
   defend themselves.

MJ:
   fascism (fàsh´îz´em) noun
   a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under
   a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the
   opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of
   belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such
   a system of government.

Well that certainly defines (in part) our current duopoly lead by the social
Democrats and 'holier than thou' Republicans ... since fascism is a form
of Statism, who would be surprised.

How exactly does the Libertarian Party's platform endorse such activities?
>From what I have read they merely desire to permit everyone to do whatever
they desire so long as they respect other's rights to do the same.

Edward from a different form of this thread:
 By passing the "blame buck" onto the defenseless, they figure they wont
 have to catch the hell they deserve for being scum!
MJ:
When one is free to make his own decisions, how is it another's fault when
the results prove deficient?



Are you fearful of freedom?
Why must you carelessly toss around emotive language in an attempt to
obscure the issue?


Regard$,
--MJ

When I was a small boy I was always being told by others, especially
grown ups, to behave, to be good. It never occurred to me that I was
always behaving in some manner. But I didn't have the awareness or
skill to ask those grown ups what they meant when they told me to
behave and to be good. Now I realize that all they wanted was for me
to conform to their idea of what was good and not to do what they
called bad behavior, which they sometimes changed at will. Even
today people are still telling me how I should behave, but now I ask
what they mean and sometimes it drives them up a wall.  -- Sidney Madwed

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Rachel's Enviroment & Health WEEKLY #631

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

"Howard R. Davis III" wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> Gerald Harp wrote:
> >
> >  -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > In a message dated 1/5/99 3:01:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > writes:
> >
> > >
> > >  So are you saying that we need to return to the polocies of Ronald
> > >  Reagan who had been president during this last expansion?
> > >
> > >  best wishes, Howard Davis
> > >
> >
> > I hope not.  I have not made the averages but according to the BLS, the
> > December average weekly industry (nonfarm payroll) earnings in $1982 for 1972
> > was $317 (the peak year), in 1980, just before Reagan, it had slipped to $274,
> > in 1989 it was down to $262.
>
> ***
>Is this figure only for industrial workers? If so, it would seem to
> me that it would have included a larger percentage of overpayed union
> workers in the earlier figure in comparison to the later (due to the
> many layoffs in unionized fields, especially automotive). It would not
> be indicative of the average pay of all average workers which would
> include many other categories of workers traditionally non-unionized.
>
> best wishes, Howard Davis

Union workers are overpayed? How about corporate CEOs. How about Bill
Gates who makes 1000 dollars a second when he shits. Is that
overpayed?

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Edward Britton wrote:
>
>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> OK, all you social Darwinists out there (typically Republicans and
> Libertarians), passing laws to maintain your quaint little suburban status
> quos, it would be wise to remember a simple concept:
>
> "From the rage of today's downtrodden, comes the revenge of tomorrow's
> revolutionary force."
>
> Right now, it seems, cops and "citizens" are ahead. Keep an eye on the
> race, compassionless ones.
>
> Edward   ><>

You said it brother. It's what they always forget. All things seek
equilibrium
in nature. When the rich and wanabe rich make life intolerable for
enough
people, you get revolution. While revolutionaries often have the good
taste to
hang or decapitate the wealthy class responsible for their condition,
the
collateral damage to innocent people is often enormous. This is why I
view
revolution as the failure of society, and to be avoided if at all
possible.

If you want to know how to do that, look at what's important to the
ruling
elites and economic Libertarians and plan to do the opposite. This is
not
theoretical. Look at what free market capitalism is doing to Asia and
Indonesia and Russia in particular. The Russians knew what to do their
last
batch of rich elites. So did the French in their revolution. So did
the Cubans
in their revolution, though they only booted the criminals out.

All because the greediest scum had the freedom to steal the wealth of
a
nation.

Joshua2

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Roman Jews In America: 775 A.D.?

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thanks, Brian, for the great post.  If anyone else on the list is
interested in this topic, read linguist Barry Fell's "America BC" ...also
the works
of an anthropologist named Goodman, affiliated with the University of
Arizona during the 1970s ("American Genesis").

The early history of the Americas is filled with a number of anomalies:
Roman and Phoenician coins and artifacts found in the Miss valley, the
standing stones of New England(Arabic
inscriptions found in the deserts
of the American southwest, not to mention the possibility of Asian
visitors...  or the similarity between the culture of MesoAmerica and
Egypt, or the mysterious African-featured stone heads of La Venta
(suggesting a Mesoamerican link with Africa)..

Did Chris (Columbus) have access to an ancient map?

Perhaps the Book of Mormon's fanciful narrative of Semites in America
(Lamanites and Nephites) has some basis in fact.  who knows.

Thanks for the interesting post,
Wm

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Brian Redman wrote:

>  -Caveat Lector-
>
> I chanced across the article below while going through
> old New York Times from year 1925. It suggests a different
> history of the American continent than is usually supposed.
>
> Brian Redman   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.shout.net/~bigred/cn.html
> Editor-in-Chief| ---Phone: 217-356-4418
> Conspiracy Nation  |   "The perfect slave thinks he's free."
>
> -- Forwarded message --
>
>   PUZZLING "RELICS" DUG UP IN ARIZONA STIR SCIENTISTS
> 
> Purport To Chronicle The Arrival Of Roman Jews There In 775 A.D.
> 
>  [New York Times, December 13, 1925]
>
> TUCSON, Ariz., Dec. 12 -- After investigation by a number of
> scientists, first announcement was made here today of the
> excavation near Tucson of cast lead swords, crosses and other
> objects bearing Latin and Hebrew inscriptions which, taken at
> their face value, are held to mean that Roman Jews crossed the
> Atlantic in the Dark Ages, penetrated to Arizona and founded a
> kingdom which lasted from about 700 A.D. to 900 A.D.
>
> The cast symbols and the engravings on them include crosses, a
> crescent, a seven-branched candlestick and certain Masonic-like
> representations.
>
> Opinions of scientists vary as to the authenticity of the
> objects. Neil Merton Judd, curator of American archaeology of the
> United States National Museum, said he believed that no hoax or
> fraud was involved, but he thought the date later than that of
> the Spanish conquest of 1540 A.D.
>
> Dr. Byron Cummings, Professor of Archaeology of the University of
> Arizona, vouched for the reliability of the discoverers of the
> objects, which, he said, "show Jewish and Christian influence and
> bear dates of 700 to 900 A.D."
>
> On the other hand, Dr. Bashford Dean, curator of arms and armor
> of the Metropolitan Museum of Art of New York City, when
> consulted about the excavations, branded the objects as crude and
> childish forgeries.
>
> The first object to be found was a large metal cross, which was
> discovered by Charles E. Manier of Tucson, embedded in a
> limestone formation, five feet five inches below the surface of
> the land, near an old lime kiln. Further digging by Mr. Manier
> and Thomas W. Best uncovered the other objects. Analysis showed
> that they were made with lead mixed with antimony, silver and
> rome tin. This was described by Professor Cummings as a natural
> alloy.
>
>-+- Noted Scientists Examine Objects -+-
>
> The objects and site have been examined by Professor A.E.
> Douglass, noted astronomer and chronologist of the Lowell
> Observatory; Professor Frank H. Fowler of the College of Letters,
> Arts and Sciences of the University of Arizona; Dr. C.J. Saria, a
> geologist; Professor Cummings, Neil H. Judd and others.
> Descriptions of the objects and the texts of the inscriptions
> have been sent to scholars in many parts of the country.
>
> The combination of Christian cross, Moslem crescent, Hebraic
> seven-branched candlestick and Freemasonry emblems has imposed a
> heavy tax on the credulity of investigators, but their appearance
> of having been covered and embedded in stone by natural processes
> has puzzled skilled archaeologists. Some have arrived at the
> opinion that, whatever their origin, the objects lay for
> centuries in the earth where they were found.
>
> The inscriptions have been interpreted as describing the
> conflicts of the pre-historic Roman-Jewish kingdom in the
> Southwest with the Toltec Indians, forerunners of the Aztecs.
> >From the inscriptions it has been deduced that the mysterious
> invaders called their land "Calalus." Using the texts as a basis
> for the work, Laura Coleman Ostrander, historian of Tucson, has
> sketched the history of rulers of Calalus, her dynasty consisting
> of Theodorus, J