[CTRL] Freedom limits in the EU

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

EU set to agree sweeping counter-terror policies

Richard Norton-Taylor
Thursday March 25, 2004
The Guardian

Police, security and intelligence agencies across Europe will have
authority to hold and exchange data on individuals - and detain them -
under a draft declaration on combating terrorism to be agreed by EU
leaders meeting in Brussels today.

Under the plans, which will be approved by the EU summit in Brussels,
officials would win sweeping powers to arrest and question individuals
on suspicion of involvement in terrorism. The summit opens two weeks
after the Madrid train bombings injected new urgency into remedying
glaring deficiencies in Europe's anti-terrorist defences.

A draft declaration seen by the Guardian contains over 50 proposals
which amount to a formidable array of measures in an area of European
cooperation - involving the criminal justice system as a whole - in
which Britain has hitherto been reluctant to get enmeshed. Whitehall
signalled yesterday that the government is preparing to drop its veto
over important areas of EU judicial cooperation.

The draft declaration prepared for today's European summit by Ireland,
holder of the rotating EU presidency, has been obtained by Statewatch, a
London-based bulletin monitoring EU decision making and potential
threats to civil liberties.

New proposals include a European register on convictions and
disqualifications, a database on forensic material and undefined
measures simplifying the exchange of information and intelligence
between law enforcement authorities of the member states.

Another is a British plan to resurrect proposals, previously blocked on
civil liberty grounds, to retain communication traffic data - a
reference to mobile phone records and emails to assist tracking and
investigating terrorists. Standards are to be agreed by 2005.

Civil liberties campaigners say that many of the measures in the
document are too widely drawn and amount to an electronic fishing
expedition that could catch innocent people or those suspected of
relatively minor offences.

Tony Bunyan, editor of Statewatch, said yesterday: Under the guise of
tackling terrorism, the EU is planning to bring in a swath of measures
to do with crime and the surveillance of the whole population. After the
dreadful loss of life and injuries in Madrid we need a response that
unites Europe rather than divides it.

Other proposals in the document include the setting up of a common visa
information system, and measures to make it easier to exchange personal
data - DNA, fingerprints and visas - kept on different electronic
systems. The European commission should also draw up plans to enable
national law enforcement agencies to have access to the EU systems, it
says.

New EU laws would set up joint investigating teams and joint measures on
money laundering [and] the identification, tracing, freezing, and
confiscation ... of proceeds of crime. Eurojust, a plan to give common
rules to national public prosecutors throughout the EU, would be set up
as a matter of urgency. The document also calls for progress on the
establishment of a European borders agency to set common EU standards
for patrolling and controlling frontiers.

The plan is seen as a way of addressing lack of confidence in the
ability of authorities in the new EU members in central and eastern
Europe to control borders.

Public transport carriers would be obliged to reveal passenger details,
while biometric features would be incorporated into EU passports. All
the measures, says the draft declaration, would be agreed by the summer.
Europol, the EU's police organisation, should be strengthened.

Another priority should be to enhance the capacity of appropriate EU
bodies in the preparation of intelligence assessments of all aspects of
the terrorist threat, with a closer linkage to EU policymaking.

EU countries should continue to investigate the links between extreme
religious or political beliefs, as well as socio-economic and other
factors, and support for terrorism, and develop and implement a
strategy to promote cross-cultural and inter-religious understanding
between Europe and the Islamic world.

The real test in the wake of the Madrid bombings, commentators say, is
the willingness of member states jealous of their intelligence and
security knowhow, like Britain, to cooperate more closely with all their
EU partners.

The EU action plan also has implications for its relations with the US.

An internal note of a recent meeting between European and American
officials in Dublin on the new transatlantic agenda reveals, for
example, that the FBI prefers to deal with individual EU states rather
than Europol.

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[CTRL] Voting

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Just curious. When I went 
to vote, theoptical scanning method was used. Little ovals were to 
be filled out where one wanted to take a position. I wondered why there 
was no privacy and the person scanning the input into the machine could see who 
voted for whom.Itwas a ho ho ho response and the young man 
said that although he had seen several hundred voting papers, he never cared who 
voted for whom. I was told there were privacy envelopes that could 
be used, but someone had taken down the sign down. Then I talked to a 
friend who voted using the same system at another voting place and wasn't aware 
of any such envelopes. Has anyone else encountered 
this?
www.ctrl.org
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==
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

[CTRL] What is being done to have a one world government

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




http://emperors-clothes.com/news/french.htm

Why French Troops Stood by as Albanians Burned 
a Serbian Village to the Ground
Dispatch from Agence France Presse,21 
March
EC Comment by Jared Israel[Posted 21 March 
2004]

EC Comment
Really, could it be 
clearer?
As most of our readers are 
probably aware, for the past five days Albanian terrorists have raged through 
Kosovo, beating and killing Serbian residents, destroying their homes and 
property. 
Below is a dispatch sent out 
today, 21 March, by Agence France Presse. It describes how French NATO 
"peacekeepers" sat in their military base on top of a hill and watched for hours 
as Albanian thugs burned a Serbian village to the ground. The French troops 
evacuated some Serbs, but otherwise they did nothing. 
Why?
Obviously, the French, with all the weapons of a modern army, 
could have stopped the thugs in five minutes: they only needed to use those 
weapons. But although they managed to evacuate Serbian residents before any were 
killed (or so we are told), they allowed the Albanians to burn everything down. 
Of course this means the French troops had orders from NATO not to 
intervene. Indeed it means more: it means the Albanian thugs *knew* that 
the French had orders from NATO not to intervene. For unless the thugs 
were *sure* French troops would refrain from taking appropriate action - 
i.e., doing whatever was necessary to stop the attack - the thugs would never 
have dared launch a several-hours long assault on the Serbian village. In other 
words, the NATO troops and the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) terrorists have a 
division of labor. NATO oversees; the KLA does the dirty work. 
According to Agence France 
Presse, the Serbian residents were confused about the French role. Thus one 
Serb, furious at the French, is quoted as follows:

  "We were friends," he said of 
  the French troops. "We knew they were there to protect us. Unfortunately, when 
  the biggest problem arose, they turned their backs on 
us."
But he is quite mistaken. The French were *not* there to protect 
the Serbs. 
Sure, some French troops were friendly to individual Serbs - if 
you have met any Serbian farmers you know they are as likeable as anyone on 
earth. But NATO has a dark strategy: the fostering of a fascist movement 
among Albanians.To that end, NATO troops were sent into Kosovo. Up 
until now they have had three purposes: 

  a) to make sure the Yugoslav Army does not return; 
  b) to guarantee that the KLA functions - as they do indeed 
  function - as the government of Kosovo; 
  c) to foster a fascist political base for the KLA among 
  Albanians. 
This last - fostering fascism among Albanians - has been the 
most important. 
In order to strengthen the KLA as a fascist movement, so it can 
be used by NATO for various purposes in the Balkans, and to encourage similar 
forces elsewhere - for example, the Chechen terrorists whom NATO uses against 
Russia - the KLA must be made to feel and appear powerful. Thus KLA 
leaders were told to stage this massive pogrom, and they were allowed to do so 
successfully.
All over Kosovo, Albanian terrorists, returning home from 
burning down villages such 
as Svinjare, are telling other Albanians, "You should 
have been there. NATO just sat and watched. It was like shooting 
ducks in a barrel. Nothing can stop us."
In 1929 fascist agitators incited Arabs to murder Jews in the 
city of Hebron, in the Palestine Mandate area. To embolden would-be murderers, 
the fascists told them, "The government [meaning the British government] is with 
us!" [1]
The current message is that the Western powers may decry 
terrorism, but in fact "the government is with" the fascist terrorists. 
This message of 'hope' will not be lost on similar forces in Palestine or 
Chechnya or Kashmir or Algeria. Or Western Europe...
Jared IsraelEditorEmperor's Clothes

Smouldering Serb village in Kosovo gutted in 
sight of NATO peacekeepers
Agence France Presse, March 21
Agence France Presse; Section: International News; Headline: Smouldering Serb village in Kosovo gutted in 
sight of NATO peacekeepers; Byline: Jean-Eudes Barbier; 
Dateline: Svinjare, Serbia, March 21

Houses in the Serb village of 
Svinjare in northern Kosovo continue to smoulder days after an attack by ethnic 
Albanians in plain view of a NATO peacekeeping base.Smoke rises from the 
ruins of the village -- situated between two ethnic Albanian towns three 
kilometres (two miles) south of Kosovska Mitrovica -- where not one of the 130 
houses was spared by Albanian extremists in the attack on Thursday 
afternoon.It was destroyed in a matter of hours. The Albanian flag flaps 
above some of the soot-blackened houses in a sign of defiance by 

Re: [CTRL] CFTM....Cleland's Viet Nam injuries...all veterans should read.

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



What we have always suspected...Prudy puts 
herself in the position of God. It's OK.I do believe Godis 
compassionate where the mentally ill are concerned.

From: Conspiracy Theory 
Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prudy 
LSent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 8:09 AMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] CFTMCleland's "Viet Nam" 
injuries...all veterans should read.
-Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  In a message dated 2/21/2004 8:41:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Thirty years ago, Bush was granted an honorable discharge from 
the NationalGuard  which would seem to put the matter to rest. But 
liberals want proofthat Bush actually deserved his honorable discharge. 
(Since when did theparty of Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd 
get so obsessed withhonor?)
  What kind of people are they who consider only sexual conduct in the 
  matter of honor? For years people have been reasonably sure that Adolph 
  Hitler actually did not have sex at all. If that's someone's version of 
  an honorable individual, then I guess we know where the majority of 
  Conservatives stand. 
  
  The picture of the a newly deceased standing at Heaven's gate while St. 
  Peter checkshis life's story must go something like this: Saved 
  his family from a fire at age of four, never missed Sunday school or church 
  until serving in combat, defended the United States from axis powers and saved 
  the lives of many of his comrads through acts of bravery, gave generously of 
  both money and time to the poor and afflicted, raised decent and well-behaved 
  children, worked continuously for the good of mankind. At this point St. 
  Peter says, "Oh forget it. He had a wild weekend with a co-worker about 
  fifty years ago. Straight to Hell with him." Well I guess we know 
  what counts. Prudy
  
  www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a 
  discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic 
  screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid 
  matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and 
  outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor 
  effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, 
  CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to 
  readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial 
  and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: . Kerry born dec. ELEVENTH

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-





  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kris 
  MilleganSent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:21 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Fwd: . Kerry born dec. 
  ELEVENTH-Caveat Lector- www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  
  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Where Did all the Kodak Jobs Really Go?

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

The way it was reported in the papers here is that the job layoff came
because Kodak had to work with the change to digital photography.  Here
in Chicago we have story after story about companies sending jobs to
other countries.  Primarily I'm socially conservative, but I think we
have to face that two things are happening.  There is corporate
consolidation taking place.  Fewer and fewer independent companies and
more under single banner corporations with many subgroups.  Then there
are what Democrats call tax cuts to the rich, which seem to be tax cuts
not for individuals who will use that money to start jobs in the US, but
who use that money to support where they can gain the largest profit,
from corporation who send their jobs overseas.  Middle and lower class
people who get money back from the tax cuts are supposed to spend that
money to keep the economy up.  People in the US have an ideal of
economic prosperity which they believe is sustained by their own
efforts.  Go to college, work hard, and you entitled to a two car garage
next to a nice large home or condo in the suburbs.  It's why people have
come here from other countries, for that opportunity.  This is not going
to continue under the new one-world plan when income is to be equalized
across the world.  The more corporate consolidation that takes place, so
much more smoothly the transition will be to a two tier system where
there will be those who have the power and those who do not, and
individuals who want to be part of the power structure better not think
they have any freedom of speech. No more middle class.  Social
conservatism will fall victim to this system.  Abortion and euthanisa
will delete the unproductive.  Homosexuality, because it produces no new
mouths will be acceptable.  Animal rights will transfer normal
compassion for humanity to animals.  The environmental concerns will
supplant concern for humans.  The move from monotheism (Judaism,
Christianity) will be replaced by New Age spirituality without morality.
(You can feel good about yourself without having responsibility for
anything.)   And so the change taking place goes.  This commentary may
seem a long way from Kodak sending jobs overseas, but I don't believe in
missing the woods picture while concentrating on the trees in the
woods.

Right now Bush appears to be an unknowledgeable flunky.  Heaven knows
his image of one of sincere.  I see no Democrat who has integrity, who
doesn't buy into the one-world line.  If someone appeared on the tube
who claimed to be a savior of America, I would probably run for the
hills, knowing that he/she was a set up.

The bottom line is that we will probably have to go through much
destruction for many years with very few of us surviving because the
one-world system doesn't work where human nature is concerned.  Another
reason I have very little hope for the future is that I see people
hidden in their own little created caves, hoping the world passes them
by without their putting out any effort to help the community at large.
Oh well, some did survive the Nazi holocaust of Jews, Germans, Polish
people, Christians, and other groups.  Wishing is as good as working for
those who survive, but for the others...

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nakano Nakamura
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 2:48 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Where Did all the Kodak Jobs Really Go?


-Caveat Lector-

--- Kris Millegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Where did all the Kodak jobs go?
 At the end of last year Kodak had a workforce of
 20,600 in Rochester. That's down from 2002 when
 Kodak had 22,000 employees in Rochester. So, where
 did the jobs go? Most of Rochester's job losses went
 overseas. Kodak says it has major manufacturing
 operations in 13 other countries.
=
Nakano comments:
The master plan calls for reducing America to
the status of a third-world country. It's working.
Kraft Foods is also announcing huge new job layoffs.
I hear many rosey reports about how the U.S. economy
is recovering strongly and even predictions the
Dow will shoot up to 15,000. This is pure bullhockey!
The U.S. is running horrific trade deficits and our
main export is American jobs which will never come
back. We all can't make a living by selling hamburgers
to each other.
Nakano

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

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are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
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with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and

[CTRL] Wesley Clark

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60629,00.html

Wesley Clark is a Rhodes scholar and a supporter of EU chief Javier
Solana, a very interesting combination.  A match with Hillary C. as VP
would be a dangerous combination for the US as a nation.

www.ctrl.org
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==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

[CTRL] Coffee, Tea, Handcuffs?

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




An Australian journalist gets a taste of 
Department of Homeland Security hospitality
http://www.internationalspeculator.com/outrage/index.php
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] zionists

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Whoayou write ...as well as the Progressives often attempt to marry
Protestants whenever possible...  Shades of Nazi antisemitic thinking.
You might as well add that Jews go after blond blue-eyed Aryan maidens.
Jews who have left understanding about the religious aspects of Judan
link with Christians who have left belief behind belief in the Christian
faith.  Both parties tend not to be very deep thinkers.  They have
things in common, and religion is outside of the territory they think
important.  Orthodox Jews are not about to marry fundamentalist
Christians Protestants.  I have no idea who Falk is.  Do you have anyone
in mind who has checked their DNA before they marry?  I tried to show
that the ideas held by individuals that don't bother to identify with
groups are more important than labels that others try to paste on them.
Do try to check out the site I mentioned.  It might expand your view of
others.

Your Progressive Jewish friend only showed how she sees things. He/she
seems to be in no way an expert on Jewish religion and politics.  You
have a chance to learn how things really are if you take the time to
research things yourself.  Start by going to the site I linked.   Gossip
about Secular Jews/regular Jews, Orthodox Jews/Hasidic Jews,
Conservative Jews/fundamentalist Jews etc. is just that.


-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of E. Murray
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Zionists DO NOT Represent Jews


-Caveat Lector-

There is no mention of Sharon in my email at all. I do not know really
his steam or views.  A self-avowed Progressive Jewish woman I was in
graduate school with in the late 70s from Manhattan told me there were
officially four sects of Jews and she told me what they were known as.
I realize from your email that you see there are the 1) Secular Jews
(aka the Regular ones?), 2) Orthodox Jews (Hasidics?), 3) Conservative
Jews (aka Fundamentalists? and often considered politically as
Zionists), and last, 4) ??  I suppose the Progressive Jews (known as
Progressives).
zZ

www.ctrl.org
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==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Zionists DO NOT Represent Jews

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

For sanity's sake, why would you turn to Shannon to tell you about Jews
when you can call the nearest synagogue or go on line and ask your
questions at many sites.  Life is  complicated.  Simplistic views come
from simplistic people.  What all Jews have in common is a long history
and that's about it.  Like a tree, there are many branches and the
shoots of branches veer off and then cross each other.  A family who for
many generations follows the secular only line may have children who
jump off and go to the Orthodox branch or to the Conservative branch for
example.  Families who are Orthodox for many generations may find
themselves with a child who goes off and lands on another branch.  Many
Jews intermarry, thinking the religious part is superfluous, but then
their children may search for their roots and start studying the
religious aspect.  People who are Conservative may take the Jewish
religion more seriously than someone who is born Orthodox but takes it
for granted.  The complexity of the Jewish community can be overwhelming
from the outside.  When seen from the inside, from someone who is
Jewish, each one thinks they know what Judaism is about, and of course
it always corrolates with what that person believes.  How many branches
of Orthodox Judaism do you think there are?  The best way to understand
Jews is to start by checking out how many different political parties
there are in Israel.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Politics/partytoc.html.

Some are tiny.  Some are larger.  Many get together to form coalitions.
The number of different parties in such a small country shows the
fiercely independent character of Jews.  Some are secular.  Some are
religious.  Some are a combination.  It makes our Democrats vs
Republicans system here in the US seem like mind-controlled zombies.
This fiercely independent nature of Jews is why the one-worlders want to
do away with the Jews.  It's why the European Union under Solana fights
Israel.

I looked to the Jews against Zionism website and found they were just a
small sect.  Someone has expanded their image via the internet.  From
what I know, they may not know how their image has been expanded by
someone on the inside of their movement in that they are not people who
spend much time on the internet.


-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of E. Murray
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 2:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Zionists DO NOT Represent Jews


-Caveat Lector-

Can you please clarify the differences between the four sects of Judaism
-- I am not sure my info is correct but I understand that the four sects
are:  1) Hasidic, 2) Fundamentalists (aka Zionists) 3) Regular or
Normal Jews (what are they known as to you?) and 4) Progressive Jews.  I
would like clarification about the differences in a general way.  Thanks
much for your input.   E. Murry

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:06:40 -0800 Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 -Caveat Lector-

 Jews, which is to say EDOMITE Jews, ie those who, in their arrogance
 call themselves The Jews, do not represent Zionists.

 The whole world is Jewish except for John KKKnight. Otherwise there
 are only different denominations of Jews. (Judaism is one.
 Denominations are
 many. - Jewish Almanac, 1980, p.504).

 Zandu Goldbar
 Learned Elder of Zion

  * http://www.geocities.com/CITIZENS_ASSEMBLY
 **
  $$$   Capital punishment is not just penalty for poverty
 $$$

 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, William Shannon wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-
 
  http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
 
 
 
  ZIONISTS
 
  DO NOT REPRESENT JEWS
 
 
  JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM IN THE NEWS
 
 
  Washington Post, 5 October 2003
 
 
  Read Open Letter to
  President George W. Bush
 
  (printable PDF Version of Letter to Pres. Bush)
 
 
 
 
 
 
  From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in
 recent times, the
  impression has been created in the World that there is some
 connection
  between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the
 Jewish people as a
  whole. Therefore, we who continue to uphold the never-changing
 tradition of the
  Jewish people find it proper to again clarify the following
 points:
 
   A Jew is one who remains faithful to the laws of the Jewish
 religion, that
  is, the Holy Torah and its commandments.
 
  The Jewish people became a people before they had their own land,
 and
  continued to exist as a people also after they went Into exile,
 because our very
  peoplehood is based exclusively on the Torah.
 
  The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that
 they
  observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do
 this, their
  sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into
 exile. From that
  time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition
 to establish a
  Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere
 throughout the
 

Re: [CTRL] radicalmiddle.com

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Neocons?  Big whooping conspiracy.  Volumes of writing all over the net.
Everything is out there except for the size of their bellybuttons.  Fine
if you want your conspiracy theories neatly packaged for you.  The
bigger picture is the cultural  change affecting everyone which has been
worked out behind the scenes, changes led by change agents, the changes
which have been going on for many years, the network of organizations
and individuals working together behind the scenes, the suckers who buy
into their brand of political thinking, the disinformation experts who
present neatly packaged conspiracy theories as provision made for
dissidents, (keeps you busy chasing your shadows and getting involved
in things that you can't do anything about).  Wiser ones than you will
check out the various links and individuals involved who are connected
with the sites I mentioned and try to work out who is connected with who
and why.  Here's a little tip for those individuals.  Radicalmiddle.com
is listed on the World Goodwill links website.  World Goodwill is a
branch of Lucis Trust, a very secretive international organization with
branches all over the world which began its operation in the twenties.
If you have success peddling the Neocon conspiracy theory, it's because
these organizations have laid out the walking carpet for you.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark S Bilk
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 12:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] radicalmiddle.com


-Caveat Lector-

In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; from
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 11:32:39PM -0600
Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911

Zuukie, would you please tell us exactly what on that website explains
the source of the conspiracies taking place here in the US ?

Actually, I don't know what you mean by that phrase.  Do you mean the
origin of the Neocons that have seized power in the U.S.?  Or do you
mean the origins of the explanations for 9-11 that attributes the
attacks to the Neocons?

On Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 11:32:39PM -0600, Zuukie wrote:
Conspiracy?  Go to radicalmiddle.com to see the source of the
conspiracies taking place here in the US.  Take the time to read the
various headings.  This is a repeat of earlier information.  Shannon
repeats the same story many times over each day.  It would be easy to
overlook the importance of the information coming from the
radicalmiddle.com in the midst of his barrage.

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These
are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of
posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] DEBKA file on Saddam

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Those going to this site will find an unsubstantiated warning about New
York being a target in February.  If you want to know what Jews are
talking about, go to a Jewish site.

Italian Il Giornale: Al Qaeda Threatens to Nuke New York on February 2

31 December

http://www.debka.com/




 Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive

DEBKAfile Special Report

December 14, 2003, 6:55 PM (GMT+02:00)





A number of questions are raised by the incredibly bedraggled, tired and
crushed condition of this once savage, dapper and pampered ruler who was
discovered in a hole in the ground on Saturday, December 13:

1. The length and state of his hair indicated he had not seen a barber
or even had a shampoo for several weeks.

2. The wild state of his beard indicated he had not shaved for the same
period

3. The hole dug in the floor of a cellar in a farm compound near Tikrit
was primitive indeed – 6ft across and 8ft across with minimal sanitary
arrangements - a far cry from his opulent palaces.

4. Saddam looked beaten and hungry.

5. Detained trying to escape were two unidentified men. Left with him
were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol, none of which were used.

6. The hole had only one opening. It was not only camouflaged with mud
and bricks – it was blocked. He could not have climbed out without
someone on the outside removing the covering.

7. And most important, $750,000 in 100-dollar notes were found with him
(a pittance for his captors who expected a $25m reward)– but no
communications equipment of any kind, whether cell phone or even a
carrier pigeon for contacting the outside world.

According to DEBKAfile analysts, these seven anomalies point to one
conclusion: Saddam Hussein was not in hiding; he was a prisoner.

After his last audiotaped message was delivered and aired over al
Arabiya TV on Sunday November 16, on the occasion of Ramadan, Saddam was
seized, possibly with the connivance of his own men, and held in that
hole in Adwar for three weeks or more, which would have accounted for
his appearance and condition. Meanwhile, his captors bargained for the
$25 m prize the Americans promised for information leading to his
capture alive or dead. The negotiations were mediated by Jalal
Talabani’s Kurdish PUK militia.

These circumstances would explain the ex-ruler’s docility – described by
Lt.Gen. Ricardo Sanchez as “resignation” – in the face of his capture by
US forces. He must have regarded them as his rescuers and would have
greeted them with relief.

From Gen. Sanchez’s evasive answers to questions on the $25m bounty, it
may be inferred that the Americans and Kurds took advantage of the
negotiations with Saddam’s abductors to move in close and capture him on
their own account, for three reasons:

A. His capture had become a matter of national pride for the Americans.
No kudos would have been attached to his handover by a local gang of
bounty-seekers or criminals. The country would have been swept anew with
rumors that the big hero Saddam was again betrayed by the people he
trusted, just as in the war.

B. It was vital to catch his kidnappers unawares so as to make sure
Saddam was taken alive. They might well have killed him and demanded the
prize for his body. But they made sure he had no means of taking his own
life and may have kept him sedated.

C. During the weeks he is presumed to have been in captivity, guerrilla
activity declined markedly – especially in the Sunni Triangle towns of
Falluja, Ramadi and Balad - while surging outside this flashpoint region
– in Mosul in the north and Najef, Nasseriya and Hilla in the south. It
was important for the coalition to lay hands on him before the epicenter
of the violence turned back towards Baghdad and the center of the Sunni
Triangle.

The next thing to watch now is not just where and when Saddam is brought
to justice for countless crimes against his people and humanity -
Sanchez said his interrogation will take “as long as it takes – but what
happens to the insurgency. Will it escalate or gradually die down?

An answer to this, according to DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources, was
received in Washington nine days before Saddam reached US custody.

It came in the form of a disturbing piece of intelligence that the
notorious Lebanese terrorist and hostage-taker Imad Mughniyeh, who
figures on the most wanted list of 22 men published by the FBI after
9/11, had arrived in southern Iraq and was organizing a new anti-US
terror campaign to be launched in March-April 2004, marking the first
year of the American invasion.

For the past 21 years, Mughniyeh has waged a war of terror against
Americans, whether on behalf of the Hizballah, the Iranian Shiite
fundamentalists, al Qaeda or for himself. The Lebanese arch-terrorist
represents for the anti-American forces in Iraq an ultimate weapon.

Saddam’s capture will not turn this offensive aside; it may even bring
it forward.

For Israel, there are three lessons to be drawn from the dramatic 

Re: [CTRL] DEBKA file on Saddam

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Are you concerned that if individuals go directly to Jewish 
sources for information, your garbage posts will be shown up for what they 
are? From you we get New Age propaganda. 

By the way, twice when I tried to send this interesting list to 
CTRL, it was rejected. 


Compleat List Of Liberal Debating 
Rules:01Always bring up the Administrations relationship to the 
oil business, under all circumstances.02Call your opponent a 
zionist each and every time the media is mentioned in any way shape or 
form.03Claim your opponent is a slave to the Jews, and his country 
is ruled by the Jews.04Call your opponents nazis or fascists or 
quote any nazi you can find a quote from. Doesn't matter what it is, 
it may deflect the argument for a moment.05Call your opponent a 
zionist fascist or a fascist Jew. It might confuse him momentarily, 
letting you claim that you've won.06Post many copy-n-paste articles 
from the liberal press instead of actually replying.07Quote 
Robert Fisk articles and portray them as being the word of 
God.08Claim that America kills billions of babies every year instead 
of answering any questions.09Change the subject each and every 
time you post.10Always state that your opponent is ignorant and 
stupid.11Begin a sentence with "Obviously" when the sentence is very 
vague.12When all else fails, insist that your opponent is a 
liar. Use lots of exclamation points and all caps if 
possible.13Always claim that if chemical weapons are found in Iraq, 
the CIA put them there; if none are found then America is 
evil.14WMD's can include small arms munitions, any size bomb, and 
even knives when arguing with a conservative.15Repeat each point 
that you know is an outright lie at least fifty times. If your 
opponent stops responding thinking you're an idiot, you can claim 
victory.16Always claim that Al Gore *really* won the last election 
and that Bush isn't really the president.17State the wildest 
scientific claims with authority, and then demand that your opponent prove 
you are wrong.18State *any* position with authority and then demand 
that your opponent prove you wrong.19Insist that you're not a 
socialist, but a traditional old-time Democrat, at all 
times.20Mentioning one wounded child against years of Sadaam's brutality means you've proved America 
is evil.21Stamp your feet a lot.22Claim that Bush is the 
anti-Christ, and demand that he be impeached when confronted with any fact 
whatsoever.23Change any and all financial and budgetary figures to 
prove your claims. Insist that some think-tank derived the figures 
from years of hard research.24Always artfully re-arrange words 
when quoting conservatives, and then insist that's what they originally 
wrote.25If any opponent even hints at having any religious beliefs, 
immediately insist they are part of the far far religious 
right.26Get to know other on-line liberals and play tag-team-posting 
in an attempt to confuse your opponents.27Change your on-line 
identity often if conservatives start to killfile you.28Make up 
a politically correct ancestry for yourself, and then claim all white 
Americans are evil.29If your opponent makes a point that you can't 
refute, claim that he is a slave-holder.30You get brownie points 
for each time you call an opponent a bigot, sexist, homophobe or a 
redneck.31Never under any circumstances admit to a mistake or admit 
anything you said was ever wrong.32Always spell America with one 
or more KKKs. It proves that you're very hip and 
with-it.33Polls are *always* correct when they support your views 
and *always* biased right wing propaganda when they support your opponents 
views.34Insist that Bill Clinton was the greatest American president 
of all time, and the economy immediately collapsed the day Bush took 
office.35When talking about any type of genocide, always claim that 
the Republicans completely wiped out the native population of both north and 
south America.36Claim that all tax-cuts benefit the rich and 
hurt the poor. Or that any change in taxes by conservatives is always 
bad.37Quote Molly Ivins articles and portray them as being the word 
of God.

  
  -Original 
  Message-From: Conspiracy Theory Research List 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William 
  ShannonSent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 1:29 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] DEBKA file on 
  Saddam-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 
  1/1/2004 1:16:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  If you want to know what Jews aretalking about, go to a 
Jewish site.Why?We get their 
  agenda in the mainstream media daily. Can't avoid it.And Debka is a known 
  Mossad propaganda op. Can't take too much of what they say seriously but I do 
  believe that they are correct on the "capture" of Saddam. A story that needs 
  more coverage in our mainstream media. Funny that the two propaganda outlets 
  don't play together on this one.www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER 

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Newsletter #48

[Zuukie]

n't care 
  less. Isn't the Kabbalah one of the popular topics amongst new agers these 
  days? Isn't that a Jewish thing? And what's the Chassidut? Maybe you could 
  explain? Compleat List Of Liberal 
  Debating Rules:Glad 
  it's "compleat" since we wouldn't want to miss anything. "Compleat?"Not 
  everyone who thinks that we should disengage from Israel is a "liberal" 
  Zuukie. You know that. Otherwise, your list is laughable. But what's new when 
  it comes from Zuukie?? More nonsense from the epitome of the 
  hate-America/Israel First movement. You love sacrificing American lives for 
  the betterment of Eretz Israel, right?
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

[CTRL] radicalmiddle.com

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Conspiracy? Go to radicalmiddle.com to see thesource of 
the conspiracies taking place here in the US.Take the time to read 
the variousheadings. This is a repeat of earlier information. 
Shannon repeats the same story many times over each day. It would be easy 
to overlook the importance of the informationcoming from the 
radicalmiddle.com in the midst of his 
barrage.
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Protocols Forgery Argument Is Flawed

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Shannon, I didn't 
know you were such a scholar of the Protocols that you could post someone's view 
with such supporting authority. For your edification I decided to post 
some exchanges between scholars on the protocols. I've not included their 
names, but I'm sure you will have read the different translations, noting the 
deletions of sections between editions and differences in translations. 
Somehow your scholar wasn't mentioned, but I'm sure that's just an 
oversight. LOL

There is a discussion of the relation of the work by Joly to the 
Protocols, including some examples of parallel passages, in article of mine on 
the H-Antisemitism site, at http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~antis/doc/
I recall that Norman Cohn's seminal work on the Protocols 
("Warrant for Genocide" - Harper  Row, 1967, now available in a new, 2001 
edition from Serif) contains an appendix in which he reprints the relevant 
passages from Joly's work and the associated portions that were plagiarized in 
the Nilus version. I'm away from my office at present, however, and can't grab 
the Cohn text to verify this.
 I have read that the most likely suspect to have forged the 
Protocols was the Paris section head 
of the Okhrana, the Czarist predecessor of the KGB. His  motive allegedly 
was to discredit his boss as a way to advance his own power in the organization. "Uncovering" what he 
had actually written himself would  demonstrate that he was on top of Jewish 
conspiracies while his boss was asleepat the wheel. Is this story now 
regarded as credible?
According to Michelis the Russian version of the 'Protocols' 
were frenchified in order to make them 
look more authentic. The involvement of the French offices of the Okhrana that 
you mentioned is since in doubt. (Michelis, C. G.de: Les 'Protocoles des sages 
de Sion'.Philologie et histoire. In: Cahiers du Monde russe, 38. Jg. (1997), H. 
3, S. 263-306; Hagemeister, Michael: 
Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Aus: Laqueur, Walter; Baumel, Judith Tydor (Hrsg.): 
Holocaust Encyclopedia. New Haven, London 2001. S. 499-503.)
 Second question. Part of the first story was the original 
from which the  Protocols were forged. Again, I have read that the forger 
found an obscure French espionage novel called "Imperium" which had been 
written about forty  years  earlier. The author was supposed to have 
been an anti-Napoleon journalist. 
The book described a widespread 
conspiracy to seize political power by characters who represented 
Napoleon III and his allies, and made little, if any mention of Jews or 
Jewish machinations.
I haven't heard about any french espionage novel. I suppose you 
mean Maurice Joly's 'Dialogue aux Enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu' (1854)? 
Joly was a liberal advocate with an 
anti-Napoleon (III.) notion. His book is considered as one of several prequels 
to the 'Protocols', although Joly did not mention any all. As Umberto Eco points 
out Joly himself plagiarised Eugène Sue's "Die Geheimnisse des Volkes" (Mystères 
du peuple) (Eco, Umberto: Im Wald der Fiktionen. 
Sechs Streifzüge durch die Literatur. München 1994, 
S. 177).
1.
The Non-Existent Manuscript
A Study of the Protocols of the Sages of 
Zion By Cesare G. De Michelis Translated by Richard Newhouse
Cloth: 2004, , , CIP.LC ISBN : 0-8032-1727-7 Price: 
$55.00
Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study 
of Antisemitism
The origins of the infamous forgery, the Protocols 
of the Sages of Zion, 
are the subject of much vigorous debate. In this 
meticulously researched 
and cogently argued study, Cesare G. De Michelis 
illuminates its authors 
and the circumstances of production by focusing on 
the text itself.
De Michelis examines in detail the earliest texts 
of the Protocols, looking 
in particular at the historical and structural 
relationships among them. 
His research unveils the differing texts of the 
Protocols and the presumed 
date of the first forgery. It also yields a 
greater understanding of the 
milieu in which the forgery was produced and the 
identity and motivations 
of its authors.
This volume is a revised and expanded edition of 
the original, which 
appeared in Italian. Featured is an arguably 
archetypal Russian text of the 
Protocols, which De Michelis pieced together from 
several publications, 
based on careful textual analysis.
Cesare G. De Michelis is a professor of modern and 
contemporary Italian 
literature at the Università degli Studi di Padova 
in Italy
http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/bookinfo/4546.html
Is the Tschikower study available anywhere? 
Perhaps it needs to be made Internet accessible?

I read the only German university library edition of Richard S. 
Levy's: "A lie and a libel" and immediately ordered the book in my bookstore. 
Thank you very much - Richard Levy - for bringing Benjamin W. Segel's work to 
our attention.
Now I have two basic questions:
Are there any comparative studies of the different language 
editions of the 

Re: [CTRL] U.S. Adopts New Tactics in Iraq Guerrilla War

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Prudy, when someone comes to your door with 
a weapon, planning to kill you, you can talk them into being friends with 
you as you are quite a talker. Not everyone has that skill and so ends up 
dead. Perhaps you can start a training course which will help everyone 
mellow. Until your training course has chilled everyone out, I think it 
would be best, for the safety of our own men, to be on guard against the 
barbarians in the world. 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prudy 
  LSent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:23 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] U.S. Adopts New Tactics in 
  Iraq Guerrilla War-Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  In a message dated 12/9/2003 1:16:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  




Story location: http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=BreakingstoryId=804941tw=wn_wire_story 



U.S. Adopts New Tactics in Iraq Guerrilla War 



 Monday, December 08, 2003 3:31 p.m. ET
By Charles Aldinger
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military has adopted tough new tactics 
against guerrillas in Iraq, arresting relatives of insurgents and destroying 
houses used to plan attacks against American troops, defense officials said 
on Monday. 
But the officials denied the 
move was modeled on hard-nosed tactics used by Israeli forces in Gaza and 
the West Bank, despite visits by U.S. military officers to Israel this year 
to discuss urban combat with Israel Defense Forces 
(IDF).
  
  Do you suppose all this humor is deliberate? I'm really glad to see 
  that the U.S. has finally figured out how to make the Iraqi our friends. 
  It was so generous of the Israeli Defense Forces to show them the methods that 
  have made the Israeli and the Palestinians such good friends. And the 
  voice of the turtleshall be heard in the land. 
  Prudywww.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a 
  discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic 
  screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid 
  matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions 
  and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and 
  minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being 
  said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests 
  to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust 
  denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
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Re: [CTRL] Gingrich: U.S. Went Off a Cliff in Iraq (DU)

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Newt Gingrich was 
never a true Republican. He was a media created Republican, a fact the 
Young Turks knew when they went after him. From his very beginning as part 
of the Futurist movement, through his congressional days when he was part of 
many leftist organizations such as the Congressional Clearinghouse for the 
Future, he was basically a New Age politician, which is why his popularity 
remains high with the media. One might say there are three political 
parties operating, Republican, Democrat and New Age which has members operating 
under the Republican and Democratic labels. If one watches the 
international political New Age agenda, there one will always find 
Newt.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim 
  RareySent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:37 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Gingrich: U.S. Went Off a 
  Cliff in Iraq (DU)-Caveat Lector- 
  
  Just more good cop/bad cop routine by 
  CFR member Gingrich.
  
  JR
  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Sean McBride 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:41 AM
  Subject: [CTRL] Gingrich: U.S. Went Off a Cliff in Iraq 
  (DU)
  -Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  

  
  This is possibly a hugedevelopment 
  -- the Republican Party is starting to come apart at the seams over 
  Iraq. The neocons will be left holding the bag, and an especially 
  stinking bag it will be.
  
  It's not like they weren't warned loudly 
  before the war what would happen. They did this to 
  themselves.
  
  The negative fallout for Israel, which 
  was the hand behind the neocons' hysterical campaign, could be exceptionally 
  severe. The rage in high American political circles over this mess in 
  Iraq is palpable.
  
  http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesgforum=102topic_id=257626mesg_id=257626
  
  Home | Forums | Articles | LinksDirectory | Store | Donate
  Democratic Underground Forums "DU2"
  
  


  

  
  

  NEWSWEEK: Gingrich Speaks Out Against Administration's 
  Policy in Iraq,[View 
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  spotbird 
(1000+ posts)
  Sun Dec-07-03 03:07 PMOriginal message

  NEWSWEEK: 
Gingrich Speaks Out Against Administration's Policy in 
Iraq,
  
Edited on Sun Dec-07-03 03:17 
  PM by spotbird
  


  
  
Saying The U.S. Went 'Off a 
Cliff'NEW YORK, Dec. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- In an 
exclusive interview with Newsweek, former House speaker Newt 
Gingrich, a quiet confidant of Secretary of Defense Donald 
Rumsfeld, says the U.S. went "off a cliff in Iraq." In the 
December 15 issue (on newsstands Monday, Dec. 8), Gingrich 
talks about the shortcomings of the Bush administration's 
policy in Iraq, saying that "Americans can't win in Iraq. 
Only Iraqis can win in Iraq."(snip)Gingrich, a 
member of the influential Defense Policy Board, argues that 
the administration has been putting far too much emphasis on 
a military solution and slighting the political element, 
report National Security Correspondent John Barry and 
Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas. While he says he's 
not speaking for the board, it is rare that one of its 
members voices a dissenting view in public. "The Army's 
reaction to Vietnam was not to think about it," he says. 
Rather than absorb the lessons of counterinsurgency, 
Gingrich says, the Army adopted "a deliberate strategy of 
amnesia because people don't want to ever do it again." The 
Army rebuilt a superb fighting force for waging a 
conventional war. "I am very proud of what Tommy Franks did-up to the moment of 
deciding how to transfer power to the Iraqis. Then we go off 
a 

[CTRL] Putting together the pieces that bring destruction

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



A basic of New Age thinking is 
that which causes separation from othersis evil. (A very old 
antisemitic outcry.) According to New Age thinking, all of Israel 
must fall into line with what New Agers think is for the good. 
Individuals in Israel, as well as here in the US, who fail to bow their knee to 
the new god of "what is good for the community," as told to us by the leader we 
choose to follow are and will be the targets of smear campaigns. 
Conservative and don't follow Limbaugh? Leftist and don't follow 
Clinton? You have been given your choices. Keep quiet and 
follow. 

So why, at this point, are 
Jews, and Israel in general, thetarget? In Israel there is 
still much diversity of thought in politics as well as religious and cultural 
views of how things should be, more so than we have here in the US where the 
party views seem to blend together most of the time. What happens in 
Israel, because Israel is in the eyes of the world, influences how much 
diversity in thinking occurs elsewhere. Israel and Jews are considered 
hotspots. Slam them down and the New Age leaders think thatother 
countries and individualswill fall in line. 

Notice that others have moved 
us into a view of the world as seen thru the eyes of leaders. We have been 
taught to see the US as though it was theplantation of the current owner, 
as of this time Bush (but in the past Clinton, or whoever the current president 
was), England as if it were Blair's castle, the Palestinians as if they 
were workers on Arafat's farm, Israel as if it was run by Sharon, the Catholic 
church as if the Pope were current dictator, the Holocaust as if it was the work 
of one person, Hitler. The leadership view would have us see Limbaugh and 
Hannity as the leaders of conservative thought. The left would have us see 
Hilary Clinton as the true leader of leftist 
thought.Watch who gets publicity and see who are the 
leaders provided for you. Pickyour leader and let them do the work 
for you.The manufactured differences between them are to occupy your 
thoughts. 

The picture of the world 
presented to us is not broad, but related to the "feelings" that have been 
engendered by the media for one individual (and perhaps those immediately around 
them). As political observers, we do not think thru intellectual ideas any 
more, but are merelyemotional reactors tothe current fiction book 
presented to us in the daily media. (See http://www.takebackthemedia.com/owners.html) 
I am saying that the fiction book is not the left or right as we may think they 
are.In Israel and in the US, there are still Jews who are fighting 
back against the leadership view of the world by which others would have 
uslive. This stands in the way of New Age leadership which 
would have all play follow the leader based on how we feelrather than how 
we analyze after looking at the law under which we 
live.

Solana isthemost important New Age leader at this 
point.(Get Constance Cumbey's CD-ROM free from [EMAIL PROTECTED]).Even if you are 
not a Christian, her facts on Solana are ofmajor importance. Go to 
ngws.org to see lists ofNewAge idea pushers.But 
the best way to understand New Age is to understand what New Age ideas are, and 
not just to look at the leaders;the basic idea of New Age is what the 
leadership determines is "good for the community" as opposed to respect for the 
individual life. The individual must sacrifice for the goals of the 
community according to New Age leadership. Where have we heard that 
before. 

The New Age Shannons of this 
world ignore law and viciously attackall Jews, anywhere, who do 
notfall in line with the direction of the world planners. 
ShouldIsrael,Jews and Christians be beaten into submission,who 
would be their next target? New Age believes that which causes separation 
is evil, and that can be you if you have ever thought outside the 
box.


http://stevenplaut.blogspot.com/

  
  
  In the current world jihad against Israel it is usually presumed 
  that the worst manifestation is anti-Jewish terrorism and military 
  aggression by the Arab Islamofascists. But in the long run it may turn 
  
  out that an even more destructive form of aggression against Israel and 
  the 
  Jews is the financial aggression of those seeking Israels 
  destruction.
  
  This takes the form of pumping megabucks into Israeli 
  seditious and treasonous organizations of the Far Left and of anti-Israel 
  
  Arab extremists groups. Oversees people and funds wishing the Jews ill 
  
  have discovered that it may be easier to destroy Israel from within by 
  
  intervening in Israeli politics anti-democratically. They pump funds into 
  
  the political groups advocating those things that will result in Israels 
  
  destruction and finance their media assault against Israelis to the tune 
  of 
  many millions of dollars. Israeli groups often having no more than one or 
  
  two members are guaranteed generous funding 

Re: [CTRL] Putting together the pieces that bring destruction

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Keep posting 
these kind of replies Shannon. We all know who is getting hit by the rock 
thrown into the crowd by the yelp.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 10:36 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Putting 
  together the pieces that bring destruction-Caveat Lector- 
  Dorothy (Zuukie), have you forgotten to take your 
  lithium?You know you're supposed to take it every single day or things 
  like this happen.Take your medicine honey and then you'll feel all 
  better...Bill. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  
  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Putting together the pieces that bring destruction

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Shannon has been trying to find my name for a long time, hinting around
trying to find information on me.  Having been around his type for many
years, I learned that to give out other than ideas is to put oneself in
jeopardy here on the net and elsewhere.  It's an old communist
technique, used in many different settings, to avoid the issue by
putting the spotlight on the individual making the revealing comment.
The internet makes it easy to do a search on anyone's name.  If that
name isn't a common one, like William Shannon (and who knows if that is
his real name anyway)it just provides fodder for low level players who
would rather not have their ideas discussed openly.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Daniel Harrison
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 7:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Putting together the pieces that bring destruction


-Caveat Lector-

My full name follows the regards, at the end of all my posts shannon.
thanks look again!

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:35, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 11/30/2003 7:32:08 PM Central Standard Time,

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Good, then how about being a REAL PATRIOTIC american and show us
  some of that famous american freedom of speech towords us or is
  that only reserved for yourself shannon?

 Sign your name to it like a man and I would be more sympathetic. Right

 now you're a cowardly twat.

 Bill.

 www.ctrl.org
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
 propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot
 soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy
 theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright
 fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor
 effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being

 said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always
 suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence
 to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 ==
 ==
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--
Regards,

Daniel Harrison

www.ctrl.org
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==
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propagandic
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are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of
posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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www.ctrl.org
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==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Putting together the pieces that bring destruction

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Shannon, you old fart, don't play sucker games withthose who are 
familiar with your tactics. You just look old and foolish.The 
garbage you postsmells of decades oldmoldy repeats from the 
past.If you post anything dealing with current conspiracy 
material, it's by accident. 

-Original Message-From: 
Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
William ShannonSent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:02 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Putting 
together the pieces that bring destruction
-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 11/30/2003 9:01:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  It's an old communisttechnique, used in many different 
settings, to avoid the issue byputting the spotlight on the individual 
making the revealing comment.No Dorothy, it's actually just that it's kind of hard 
  to take anyone too seriously who is too chickenshit (like you) to actually put 
  their name to what they post. Nothing more than that. Maybe you'll figure out 
  someday that most people are laughing AT you Dorothy, and that it's abundantly 
  clear that you're a hateful zealot who doesn't even have the courage of your 
  convictions.Bill. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  
  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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www.ctrl.org
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Christ as a myth

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



People, people, 
people. Leave Shannon to his own world of myths about Jews and 
Israel. Heavens knows what he calls it, but his religion is 
obsessive and it consumes him as shown by his voluminous posts here. He 
believes all people must join his religion or he will be very 
unhappy.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 9:52 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Christ as 
  a myth-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 11/26/2003 
  6:47:19 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  i feel pity for you and your 
  arrogance.And I for you and your ignorance...Having a nice 
  day.Bill. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER 
  == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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A HREF=""ctrl/A

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[CTRL] A truly subversive message in today's world

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




It's easy to get involved with 
conspiracy research where we have no power to affect the changes taking 
place. It is intellectually satisfying. However, it is 
important to notice that there are people around us who are living lives that 
oppose the cultural changes thatwe are being forced to accept. 
Thisis a truly submersive message in today's world: The 
following was written by a very politically conservative 
rabbi.
No Fun Without Family 
By Rabbi David Eidensohn
America is a culture of fun. 
Fun is a huge industry. Movie stars, sports figures, and entertainers make 
fortunes. Shaq ONeil makes $200,000 a game, or $6,000 a minute of playing time. 
The successful doctor up the block from me just took a second mortgage 
on his house. Without it, he cant keep up with the HMOs, pay his insurance, and 
feed his family.Kobe Bryant declined to plead in a rape case. Michael 
Jackson, who entertains our children, was arrested for child molestation. A 
sports columnist wrote recently how atypical a week it was because nobody in 
professional basketball got arrested.A friend of mine worked thirty 
years for IBM. When he neared retirement age, IBM fired him. He now lives on a 
tiny pension, and is not getting any younger. Another friend told me a year 
before he was fired, The computer industry drains you until you reach fifty, 
and then they let you go. They dont want to support you in your old 
age.What he predicted came true. Everybody knows it is true. The Global 
companies and billionaires get rich while most people struggle. Today, a family 
cannot survive unless the wife leaves her children and works. This is because 
the pursuit of fun has doubled consumption since the fifties. Double consumption 
means double people working. If we could devote the time we spend on 
fun to developing financial stability and security, we would have much more 
real fun.Instead, we are becoming a society of very rich global business 
people and fun stars, and an increasingly oppressed everyone else. 
Pulitzer Prize winning columnist David Broder of the Washington Post 
recently studied the finances of all of the states in the country. They are all 
going on the dole. One state built a new prison but has no money to hire guards. 
A county just sold the farm of an 89-year-old woman because she didnt pay a few 
hundred dollars in taxes.Does this sound important? If so, why do people 
sit for a few hours every night watching television or videos? Why are they not 
worried about an impending financial collapse of state governmentYou may 
think that the states will turn to the Federal government. However, the Federal 
annual income is about a trillion or two dollars. The Federal deficit is about 6 
or 7 trillion. In a few years, that will rise to 25 trillion dollars. How can a 
country, spending printed paper with nothing to back it, survive? This is how 
they do it in the banana republics. But, as Paul Krugman of the New York Times 
observed, the financial debacle facing the Federal government is far worse than 
faced by any banana republic. (On our website gendercentral.com are various 
articles about the financial situation of the country.)Does anyone care? 
No. They are too busy watching Michael Jackson and anyone else that provides 
fun.You may think that I am saying that entertainers should get less 
money. This is not my message. I am not in favor of lessening anyones earnings. 
I want to do away with the fanaticism of fun. Fun as we have it in America is 
a consuming and deleterious thing. When we teach children to worship anyone who 
has certain physical characteristics and to deride others who are less blessed, 
we destroy our children.
My children, and nearly all of my neighbors, never heard of Shaq 
or Kobe, and certainly not Michael Jackson. We have no televisions. We never go 
to movies. We spend our money on our grandchildren, not sports.A 
Presidential Commission on Fatherhood, during the Clinton administration, found 
that fewer Americans want marriage. People are now having babies without 
marriage, because marriage doesnt work or is too demanding for fun people. 
The study found that American men consider children an expense that interferes 
with their fun. In my Orthodox Jewish community, we have no professional fun. 
That is why we have flourishing families, may they increase. Ultimately, family 
is the finest fun, the real thing.
My energy goes for my children and grandchildren. My walls are 
lined with pictures, not of movie stars, not of sports stars, but of 
grandchildren. Somebody said to me, David, you are a billionaire. What 
billionaire has what I have? You cant buy a happy grandchild. I have 
fun. I get down on the rug and bark like a dog. My little grandchildren go wild. 
Meanwhile, secular sir is out there drinking. What fun. Or he has other fun. 
Fun ultimately leads to searching for what is not available. Searching for fun 
leads to addictive and compulsory 

[CTRL] Note Solana's involvement

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=464488

November 17, 
2003



  
  

  US agrees to international control of its troops in 
  Iraq
  By Leonard Doyle and Stephen Castle in Brussels
  17 November 2003 
  
  The United States accepts that to avoid humiliating failure in Iraq it 
  needs to bring its forces quickly under international control and speed 
  the handover of power, Javier Solana, the European Union foreign policy 
  chief, has said. Decisions along these lines will be made in the "coming 
  days", Mr Solana told The Independent.
  The comments, signalling a major policy shift by the US, precede 
  President George Bush's state visit this week to London, during which he 
  and Tony Blair will discuss an exit strategy for forces in Iraq.
  Mr Solana underlined the change of mood in Washington, saying: 
  "Everybody has moved, including the United States, because the United 
  States has a real problem and when you have a real problem you need help." 
  There is a "growing consensus" that the transfer of power has to be 
  accelerated, he said. "How fast can it be done? I would say the faster the 
  better."
  He added: "The more the international community is incorporated under 
  the international organisations [the better]. That is the lesson I think 
  everyone is learning. Our American friends are learning that. We will see 
  in the coming days decisions along these lines."
  The Bush administration spelt out over the weekend its new plans for 
  the faster transfer of power from Americans to the Iraqis, with a 
  transitional government now scheduled to take over from the end of June. 
  Before, US officials had said that Iraqi leaders should write a 
  constitution first, then hold elections.
  As the EU's foreign policy representative, Mr Solana has been playing a 
  significant, behind-the-scenes role. Until now, the US had resisted 
  putting the allied forces under international auspices, although there is 
  growing support in Washington for a Nato role.
  Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State, arrives in Brussels tonight 
  for talks with EU ministers, which he will combine with a meeting with the 
  retiring Nato secretary general, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen. Diplomats 
  say that Mr Powell is expected to "test the water" about the involvement 
  of the transatlantic alliance in Iraq. The litany of setbacks, growing US 
  casualties and the recent killing of 18 Italian servicemen has brought 
  intense domestic and international pressure on the Bush administration to 
  give the occupying force more legitimacy.
  Eager to counter this domestic unease, the American military sought to 
  advertise their latest crack-down. They declared that they had fired a 
  satellite-guided missile at what they said was an insurgents' training 
  camp west of Kirkuk.
  But there was more grim news on Saturday with the collision of two 
  Black Hawk helicopters after one was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade. 
  Seventeen American soldiers died, the worst single loss of life in one 
  incident since President Bush ordered the US-led invasion.
  He insisted yesterday that the US would not "cut and run". In an 
  interview with Breakfast with Frost on BBC1, the President said the 
  United States would not spend "years and years" in Iraq. But he rejected 
  as "not a fair comment" claims that the US was unprepared for winning 
  peace. Mounting violence in Iraq was "nothing more than a power grab". He 
  added: "There are some foreign fighters, mujahedin types or al-Qa'ida, or 
  al-Qa'ida affiliates involved, as well."
  America's chief post-war administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, also 
  suggested that US-led forces would remain on a different basis. "Our 
  presence here will change from an occupation to an invited presence," he 
  said. "I'm sure the Iraqi government is going to want to have coalition 
  forces here for its own security for some time.
  There have been no specifics yet about how the international community 
  would control the mainly American and British forces in Iraq. Nato remains 
  the only strong possibility because it would provide international 
  credibility while leaving control with a military organisation which 
  Washington dominates.
  Nato has already proved its willingness to act outside its traditional 
  sphere of operations by taking a role in Afghanistan. But to allow it to 
  deploy in Iraq would mean getting the approval of all 19 Nato allies 
  including France, Germany and Belgium, all staunch opponents of the 
  war.
  They would need to be satisfiedthat the UN had been given a sufficient 
  role in the 

Re: [CTRL] For Israel, We Didn't Know Will Be No Excuse

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



In your true love, one world government 
under fascist control, there will be no boundaries between countries. 
Until then, there are passports between countries, and this includes the new one 
that the sell-outs want to set up. I know thinking in depth is not your 
strong point, but no where does it say that the Arabs who are citizens of Israel 
will be subject to thePalestinian constraints. Let the terrorists 
stay among their own kind and blow each other up. 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prudy 
  LSent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:58 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] For Israel, "We Didn't 
  Know" Will Be No Excuse-Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  In a message dated 11/15/2003 12:37:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  A Palestinian must always have her ID card ready, to indicate her 
"Bantustan" assignment. If she has a West Bank ID, she cannot go to 
Jerusalem or Israel except for rare medical care. If she lives in Jerusalem, 
she may be issued a West Bank ID instead. That will be used later to prove 
that she is illegally residing in the Holy City, which is cause to demolish 
her home and seize her land for Israeli "military purposes". It is policy to 
give her five minutes to retrieve her belongings.
  
  Ahhh, all we need is that the Palestinians to be required to wear yellow 
  arm-bands, and we will know that the Nazis are alive and well and living in 
  Israel. Never fear; brown-shirts are here. It's all come full 
  circle. Prudywww.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == 
  CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing 
  propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! 
  These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, 
  mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups 
  with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and 
  thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, 
  and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no 
  credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
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  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
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  CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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A HREF=""ctrl/A

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Om

[CTRL] Solana

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




A very unexplored topic here in the 
US is the development of the European Union and the threat it poses to the 
United States. Along with this is the unexplored role of Javier 
Solana. Constance Cumbey,a Detroit lawyer, has been following 
Solana's activities since 1995. She has put together a CD-ROM called 
Javier Solala, Mystery Man of the New World Order, whichshe will send free 
of charge to anyone interested in receiving it. Hundredsof copies 
have been sent outto people in the US, Canada and many foreign 
countries.

Microsoft PowerPointShow Runtime 
edition, runs under Windows98 or higher, 64 megabytes of ram or 
higher. You advance it frame by 
frame.

The new presentation includes 
pressures currently being placed upon the European Union to break its November 
20, 1995 signed and June 1, 2000 ratified Treaty of Association with 
Israel. This disc will make you want to want to do more and more research 
on the competition between the US and the EU for power and who is on which 
side.

Her email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Her office telephone 
number is: 248-253-0333. Fax: 248-253-9037. 

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Prudy Icy Gust Religious Gynophobia

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Why don't you go to one of your Arab sites 
and find the pictures yourself. I get more than a little bored with your 
"What If" responses.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prudy 
  LSent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:02 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Prudy  Icy Gust  
  Religious Gynophobia-Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  In a message dated 11/12/2003 9:42:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Well you might if your neighbor kept coming over to your place to 
cut down your trees, refuse to allow you to exit or enter your driveway, 
shoot your kids and knock down your house. Then he takes measures to 
assure that your employer cannot do profitable business, so there's no job 
and no money to support your family. You might just be a bit 
torqued. Prudy 
  
  Well it's an interesting article, and if it was accompanied by pictures 
  might really tell us something. I must admit that the Buffalo 
  might have been able to come back too, but that doesn't mean that it would 
  have helped the starving Indians. Of course our smallpox laced blankets 
  put a lot of them out of their mysery. Now if the olives were on those 
  neatly pruned branches, then it might make it hard for the owners of the 
  trees, but not too worry. The branches can grow back after the farmers 
  and their families are gone. How's about those pictures I 
  mentioned. Let's see how Israeli expertise is going to aid next year's 
  olive trees. Prudywww.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER 
  == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
  [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF 
  CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Prudy Icy Gust Religious Gynophobia

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Regarding the cutting down of trees, you 
might want to look at the rest of the story. 

Arutz Sheva News Service http://www.IsraelNationalNews.comDelivered 
Daily via Email, Sunday thru Friday Subscribe (free): http://subscribe.a7.org/subscribe.aspPETITIONERS 
IN 'OLIVE TREE' EPISODE REFUSE POLYGRAPHThe police investigation into the 
cutting down of Arab-owned olive trees near the Jewish neighborhood of Mitzpe 
Yitzhar has taken a dramatic turn. The opinion of an expert from the Jewish 
National Fund  brought in by the police  is that the tree-cutter severed the 
upper branches in a way that avoids any serious damage to the actual tree. On 
the basis of the expert opinion, the police are requesting that those who filed 
the accusations - left-wing activists and Arabs from the village of Inbus - 
submit to lie-detector tests.Last week, a group of Israeli left-wing 
activists, together with Arabs from the village of Inbus  opposite the outlying 
neighborhood of Mitzpe Yitzhar  filed a police complaint claiming that their 
olive trees had been cut down by Jewish residents of Yesha (Judea, Samaria and 
Gaza). The Samaria region Police came to investigate, bringing along an 
olive-tree expert from the Jewish National Fund, who concluded that the trees 
had not been cut down at all, but rather had merely had their upper branches 
pruned. He stated: whoever cut these trees did so expertly in the specific 
manner which does not cause any serious damage whatsoever to the tree, whose 
branches will begin to grow back within 2 to 3 months.As a result of 
the JNF experts conclusions, the Police have requested that the left-wing 
Israeli activists and the Arabs from Inbus undergo a polygraph lie-detector 
examination to determine whether the accusations filed against the Jewish 
residents were a purposely-manufactured provocation. If it is 
determined that we are speaking about a provocation in which someone cut these 
branches and then filed a false accusation with the police, then we are dealing 
with false testimony, which is a serious infraction, police superintendent 
Doron Ben-Ami told Israel National News.Residents of the village of 
Yitzhar in Northern Samaria, as well as the outlying neighborhoods of Mitzpe 
Yitzhar and Hill 725 have published a joint statement denying any connection to 
the cutting of the village of Inbus olive trees. The letter is a response to MK 
Efraim Sneh and some in the press who have stated, without a shred of evidence 
that the residents cut down the olive trees.There is not one bit 
of truth in these accusations  they are simply baseless slander, wrote the 
residents.We request from those members of the press who lay guilt upon 
the settlers for the cutting of olive trees  which hasnt happened and will not 
happen  to cease their program of delegitimization against the residents of 
Judea, Samaria and Gaza and to return to reporting the facts, said Aviad 
Vissouly, chairman of the Land of Israel movement. The fact is that the police 
have asked the left-wing activists and the Arabs to be examined by a 
lie-detector and they are refusing to participate in the investigation. We are 
talking about a program of slander on par with the Protocols of the Elders of 
Zion, and we are requesting that the Prime Minister order a full investigation 
and report the findings to the public.Additionally, added Vissouly, 
it is incumbent upon Major-General of the Central Command Moshe Kaplinsky to 
issue clear directives with regard to the harvesting of olives on state-owned 
lands in areas adjacent to Jewish towns in clear writing, which will eliminate 
the friction, misunderstandings, and vilification of Israel across the globe. 
For some unknown reason he refuses to do so and as a result, Jewish residents, 
the IDF and the State of Israel are vilified regularly by the press 
corps.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prudy 
  LSent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 4:58 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Prudy  Icy Gust  
  Religious Gynophobia-Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  In a message dated 11/9/2003 7:16:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Yet you can't incessantly blame your neighbour for all 
your problems; when you treat your own family in suicidal and psychopathic 
terms. They have dishonoured themselves, committed the most heinous crimes 
against their own conscience, psycho-genocide, and now need a scapegoat to 
expunge that evil guilt within their own 
  societal-hive.
  Well you might if your neighbor kept coming over to your place to cut 
  down your trees, refuse to allow you to exit or enter your driveway, shoot 
  your kids and knock down your house. Then he takes measures to assure 
  that your employer cannot do profitable business, so there's no job and no 
  money to support your family. You might just be a bit torqued. 
  

Re: [CTRL] Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners...

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



As I said earlier the Israeli 
men were supposedly only seen acting in the reported way by one woman who wants 
to remain anonymous. If, as has been written, others in our government 
knew even parts of what was to happen, my guess is thatinvestigators 
wanted to know what, if anything, the Israelis knew about how the picture came 
together and what they knew about the Arabs involved. In chasing down all 
of thestories about the Israelis and the moving company, there is much 
speculation and little fact becausethose involved in covert operations, no 
matter from which country, don't go blabbing to newspapers.  


  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 9:12 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Five Israelis 
  were seen filming as jet liners...http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707Five 
  Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on 
  September 11, 2001 ...Were they part of a massive spy ring which 
  shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating 
  terrorist attack on the USA? Neil Mackay 
  investigatesTHERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, 
  but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As 
  the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed 
  the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before 
  their eyes.Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, 
  even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis  and at least 
  two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the 
  equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.Their discovery and arrest that morning 
  is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the 
  Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that 
  Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved 
  from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as 
  pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. 
  And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli 
  cause.After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli 
  Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would 
  mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: Its very good. Then he corrected 
  himself, adding: Well, its not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy 
  [for Israel from Americans].If Israels closest ally felt the 
  collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then 
  Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the worlds only hyperpower and an 
  effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been 
  murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 
  2001. Its not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first 
  spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. 
  Shes insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her 
  apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin 
  Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the 
  world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.As she gazed at the 
  burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van 
  in her parking lot. Heres her recollection: They seemed to be taking a 
  movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didnt look shocked to me. I 
  thought it was strange.Maria jotted down the vans registration and 
  called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all 
  points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The 
  cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called 
  Urban Moving.Police Chief John Schmidig said: We got an alert to be 
  on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and 
  writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State 
  Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and 
  down.By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted 
  near New Jerseys Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were 
  five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at 
  their heads and handcuffed.In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of 
  foreign passports and a pair of box cutters  the concealed Stanley Knife-type 
  blades used by the 19 hijackers whod flown jetliners into the World Trade 
  Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the 
  men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the 
  background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the 
  devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop 

Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to Sean

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/25378_comment.php

Yes, I read the story but thought I would be 
polite and not comment on it, particularly after looking at the stories carried 
by the paper it came from. The above site is a series of posts on the 
topic that I would recommend as a response to you.Knowledgeable 
individuals have spent time gathering much information that should be reviewed 
by others before they jump to conclusions based on the slippery story you 
posted.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
  McBrideSent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:56 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
  Sean-Caveat Lector- 
  
  Zuukie,
  
  I posted in this group several days ago the 
  full text of an article which mentions three reasons, apart from the testimony 
  of one woman, to believe that the Israeli spies in question celebrated 
  the destruction of the World Trade Center.
  
  The article is here:
  
   http://ww1.sundayherald.com/print37707
  
  Are you able to read the article and to 
  identify the three reasons I am alluding to?
  
  Let me be of assistance:
  
  1. There were also fresh pictures of the men 
  standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. 
  One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated 
  buildings, like a fan at a pop concert.
  
  2. An employee of Urban Moving said his 
  co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. I 
  was in tears, the man said. These guys were joking and that bothered me. 
  These guys were like, Now America knows what we go through. 
  
  
  3. Their lawyers and the embassy say their 
  ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands 
  died were due to youthful foolishness. 
  
  Comments?
  
  In an earlier post, you dismissed the reports 
  of Odigo advance warnings not being of significance. 
  Why?
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Zuukie 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 
11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies 
to Sean
-Caveat Lector- 

I tried posting my answers to your 
questions three times, and only on the third time did my post appear. 
You have given no sources that can be checked for your information. 
Since you made the original allegations, I would suggest you post sources 
and then I will give sources in rebuttal. Saying that numerous 
government investigators have viewed the video is not a valid comment unless 
a source is given. Your entire first post gave no sources other than 
your opinion based on whatever you read. A scholar you are not. 
A propagandist is what you 
are.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
  McBrideSent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:51 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
  Sean-Caveat Lector- 
  
  Mr. Rarey,
  
  The Israeli spies hung themselves with 
  their own video, which has been viewed by numerous government 
  investigators. We are not reliant on the testimony of a single woman 
  in this case to know how the Israelis behaved.
  
  What is there about Israel which is capable 
  of dimming the minds of even highly intelligent people? Look at what 
  it has done to "geniuses" like Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, who 
  assured us that invading Iraq would be a cakewalk and that Iraqi oil would 
  pay for the entire venture. Instead, Americans are now paying 
  hundreds of billions of dollars for the privilege of being trapped in a 
  bottomlesshellhole in the Mideast. We are being RUINED by the 
  brilliant advice of pro-Israel zealots.
  
  It is highly revealing that the best you 
  can come up with on this topic is the nitpicking post below. Your 
  instinct whenever the subject of Israel comes up is to attack critics of 
  Israel, usually in a way that is embarrassing to yourself and which 
  undercuts your reputation for being a fearless conspiracy 
  investigator. Michael Ruppert fell into the same trap, although he 
  has shown some efforts recently to correct the 
  problem.
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Jim 
Rarey 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 
2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try 
Replies to Sean
-Caveat Lector- 



Prudy,

I don't follow your reasoning 
if that's what it is. You say no (we don't have the word of just one 
woman?) we have the written words of the police of

[CTRL] Information from Janes

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Things are heating up between 
China and Japan. The European Union is forming its own first strike force, 
an interesting position as Muslims grow in population there. Pressure is being 
put on Israel to sign its death warrant as a Jewish country byconcessions 
to the Arabs. A folk curse on someone is "May you live in 
interesting times." 

Some headlines from a 
leading intelligence service:A 
tsar is bornWhat Russia's leader plans for the short term.[Jane's 
Foreign Report - first posted to www.foreignreport.com - 4 November 
2003]Iran: caving in or buying time?Although an escalating 
international crisis over Iran's nuclear programme appears to have been averted, 
or at least postponed, many key questions remain unanswered about the Islamic 
Republic's activities and the intentions of its leadership. JID reviews the 
latest developments.[Jane's Intelligence Digest - first posted to http://jid.janes.com - 4 November 2003] Palestinian militants target 
USAIn the months ahead, the detonation of a massive bomb underneath a US 
diplomatic vehicle travelling in the Gaza Strip is likely to be regarded as the 
beginning of a major shift in Palestinian politics - a transition in which US 
interests in both Israel and the Occupied Territories became targets of 
Palestinian militant attacks. JID's regional correspondent reports from the West 
Bank on why the USA is now in the firing line.[Jane's Intelligence Digest - 
first posted to http://jid.janes.com - 4 November 
2003]Iraq: a war without intelligenceAs the security 
situation in Iraq deteriorates daily, serious questions need to be asked about 
the shortcomings in the standard of intelligence gathering, both in the USA and 
the UK. JID has asked experienced intelligence experts to highlight the key 
problems.[Jane's Intelligence Digest - first posted to http://jid.janes.com - 4 November 2003] China steps up security on 
North Korean borderChina has transferred responsibility for securing its 
borders with North Korea and Myanmar from the police to the People's Liberation 
Army.[Jane's Intelligence Review - first posted to http://jir.janes.com - 15 October 2003] {{{ note that I had sent you a 
story about this several weeks ago. Remember, the Chinese also sent troops 
to their border with NK before  in late 1950}}}Islamist terrorism 
in Latin AmericaThe devastating 11 September terrorist attacks focused 
US attention on finding the perpetrators; US officials were shocked to find 
signs of activity far from Al-Qaeda's mountain lairs in Afghanistan, in their 
own hemisphere. In the last two years, investigators have uncovered an intricate 
web of Islamic terrorist movements and cells concentrated in the USA's back 
door, Latin America. Islamic terrorists of every movement from Hamas to Al-Qaeda 
have been uncovered in Latin America, ensconced in emigre communities. The USA 
has paid the price for its gringo superiority and the terrorists, in an arc 
sweeping through central and Latin America, have yet to be decisively 
defeated.[Jane's Terrorism  Security Monitor - first posted to 
http://jtsm.janes.com - 13 
October 2003]  Please connect this with the rise of anti-US 
governments in Latin America, and the increasing strength of Communist 
insurgents in Colombia and Peru; the Shining Path is on the rebound. When 
the World War gets going full speed, we will have serious opposition to our 
south.}Lee
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Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to Sean

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



I tried posting my answers to your questions 
three times, and only on the third time did my post appear. You have given 
no sources that can be checked for your information. Since you made the 
original allegations, I would suggest you post sources and then I will give 
sources in rebuttal. Saying that numerous government investigators 
have viewed the video is not a valid comment unless a source is given. 
Your entire first post gave no sources other than your opinion based on whatever 
you read. A scholar you are not. A propagandist is what you are.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
  McBrideSent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:51 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
  Sean-Caveat Lector- 
  
  Mr. Rarey,
  
  The Israeli spies hung themselves with their 
  own video, which has been viewed by numerous government investigators. 
  We are not reliant on the testimony of a single woman in this case to know how 
  the Israelis behaved.
  
  What is there about Israel which is capable of 
  dimming the minds of even highly intelligent people? Look at what it has 
  done to "geniuses" like Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, who assured us that 
  invading Iraq would be a cakewalk and that Iraqi oil would pay for the entire 
  venture. Instead, Americans are now paying hundreds of billions of 
  dollars for the privilege of being trapped in a bottomlesshellhole in 
  the Mideast. We are being RUINED by the brilliant advice of pro-Israel 
  zealots.
  
  It is highly revealing that the best you can 
  come up with on this topic is the nitpicking post below. Your instinct 
  whenever the subject of Israel comes up is to attack critics of Israel, 
  usually in a way that is embarrassing to yourself and which undercuts your 
  reputation for being a fearless conspiracy investigator. Michael Ruppert 
  fell into the same trap, although he has shown some efforts recently to 
  correct the problem.
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Jim 
Rarey 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 2:33 
PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies 
to Sean
-Caveat Lector- 



Prudy,

I don't follow your reasoning if 
that's what it is. You say no (we don't have the word of just one 
woman?) we have the written words of the police officers who answered 
her call.

Because the officers wrote down 
what the woman told them, do we now have more than one witness? Why not have 
ten officers report what the woman said and then will we have 11 
witnesses?

Not very clear thinking, 
Prudy.

JR

- Original Message - 
From: Prudy L 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to Sean
-Caveat Lector- 


In a message dated 11/4/2003 10:39:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1. Why did these Israelis, some of whom were Mossad 
  operatives, celebrate the destruction of the WTC?We have the word 
  of one woman looking thru binoculars into a parking lot 

No we have the written words of the police officers who answered her 
call. These answers are not very good Zuukie. 
Prudywww.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a 
discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic 
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are 
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- 
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups 
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and 
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, 
and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no 
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
 
Archives Available at: 
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HREF=""ctrl/A 
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discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic 
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are 
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- 
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups 

[CTRL] Third try Replies to Sean

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Sean asked me the following questions. 
My answers follow each question
-Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf 
Of Sean McBrideSent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 2:10 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] 911 - The Israeli Connection (Neil 
Mackay)-Caveat Lector-This is an interesting Israeli spin on 
Urban Moving Systems that you serve up.A few questions:1. Why 
did these Israelis, some of whom were Mossad operatives, celebrate the 
destruction of the WTC?We have the word of one woman looking thru 
binoculars into a parking lot .2. Why have the American 
media gone out of their way to censor this incident and brutally attacked any 
public figure, like Amiri Baraka, who even dares to mention it?This has 
been all over the net and the news. Hardly censorship. You 
definitely aren't the first to carry this story.3. Isn't it true that 
Israel in the past has staged terrorist incidents against the United States, 
with the aim provoking American hostility towards Israel's Arab and Muslim 
adversaries?If you have information on this, please present it with 
credible sources. I haven't heard of anything like this.4. Why 
haven't we seen the video that was taken by these Israeli agents? Wouldn't 
it be of enormous public interest?The woman said they seemed to be 
taking a movie, so how are we to know there was a movie taken. 
There was a movie that surfaced only recently which was taken by people who were 
new to the US and who were going taking pictures of the skyline for their 
neighbors. Were they also part of a terrorist ring because they had a 
camera out?5. Why did the owner of Urban Moving Systems rush back 
to Israel so quickly?I don't know what is going on behind the scenes 
with our own spy system much less what the Mossad might be doing. 
Everybody is looking over everyone else's shoulder for a long time 
now.6. Why was an Israeli spy ring operating in such close proximity to 
the hijackers in Florida before the attack?Probably because Israeli 
intelligence has to be watchful of everything going on based on how precarious 
the situation the Israelis find themselves in.7. Why have 
the American media failed to pursue the story that advance warning of the attack 
was transmitted on the Israeli Internet company Odigo?It lacked 
credibility.8. Why did only one Israeli die in the WTC on 
9/11? Why did George W. Bush claim that more than 100 Israelis were 
killed? Why is it that whenever this subject comes up propagandists for 
Israel dishonestly and manipulatively substitute the word "Jews" for 
"Israelis"?Please cite your source for the first 
sentence.The original story appeared 
in the Arab press. Stories circulating around the net cited more 
credible sources for Arabs knowing what was to happen. Stories circulating 
around the net cited more credible sources for our own government having 
information about what was to happen.
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to Sean

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



That's fine Prudy. Out of all of the 
countries of the world you've chosenIsrael as your personal area of 
concern. I know you are disappointed that the Israelis don't live up to 
the ideals that you would like to see. Perhaps you should find another 
country whose inhabitants have the higher ideals that you would be more 
comfortable with. Do let us know what you find.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prudy 
  LSent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:43 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
  Sean-Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  In a message dated 11/4/2003 10:39:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  1. Why did these Israelis, some of whom were Mossad operatives, 
celebrate the destruction of the WTC?We have the word of one woman 
looking thru binoculars into a parking lot 
  No we have the written words of the police officers who answered her 
  call. These answers are not very good Zuukie. 
  Prudywww.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a 
  discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic 
  screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid 
  matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions 
  and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and 
  minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being 
  said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests 
  to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust 
  denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
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  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] 911 - The Israeli Connection (Neil Mackay)

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Reports indicate that American intelligence had 
information about the pending attacks but the 
bureaucratic establishment kept the information from going thru. It is 
very possible that the Israelis knew of the impending disaster but were unable 
to get the information into hands that could take action against it. It's 
a pity that the Israelis don't trust the US and feel the need to do their own 
surveillance, but many in this country don't trust our government either. 
My guess is that the US has moles in many country including 
Israel.Those of us who read these message boards across the net are 
like archeologists who are picking thru the remains to try and understand what 
is happening in the culture at levels that are not open to us. How strange 
it is that we can't understand what is happening at the local levels of our 
government but are trying to understand international politics based on the 
information fed to us by sources we know little 
about.


-Original Message-From: 
Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
Sean McBrideSent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 3:07 AMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] 911 - The Israeli Connection 
(Neil Mackay)
-Caveat Lector- 
  
  
  
  http://ww1.sundayherald.com/print37707
  
  


  Sunday Herald - 02 November 2003

  
Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners 
ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...
Were they part of a massive spy ring which 
shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating 
terrorist attack on the USA? Neil Mackay investigates





THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, 
but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. 
As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated 
and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it 
played out before their eyes. 

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? 
Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis  and at least 
two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the 
equivalent of MI6 or the CIA. 
Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable 
fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to 
that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli 
intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved 
from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained 
as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United 
States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to 
the Israeli cause. 
After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli 
Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes 
would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: Its very good. Then he 
corrected himself, adding: Well, its not good, but it will generate 
immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans]. 
If Israels closest ally felt the collective pain of mass civilian 
deaths at the hands of terrorists, then Israel would have an unbreakable 
bond with the worlds only hyperpower and an effective free hand in 
dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been murdering its 
innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 2001. 
Its not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first spotted 
the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. 
Shes insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her 
apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the 
Twin Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions 
across the world, she watched the horror of the day unfold. 
As she gazed at the burning towers, she noticed a group of men 
kneeling on the roof of a white van in her parking lot. Heres her 
recollection: They seemed to be taking a movie. They were like happy, 
you know ... they didnt look shocked to me. I thought it was strange. 
Maria jotted down the vans registration and called the police. The 
FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all points bulletin put 
out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The cops traced 
the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called Urban 
Moving. 
Police Chief John Schmidig said: We got an alert to be on the 
lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and 
writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty 

Re: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Are you saying you believe in free speech except for
___(fill in the blank   with whatever you oppose)?

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joshua Tinnin
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets


-Caveat Lector-

On Thursday, 30 October 2003 7:23 PM -0700,
Zuukie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 When it happened to pro-lifers, you said nothing.  When it happened to

 protesters at the Democratic Convention, you said nothing.  Let's see
 what happens to your complaints.

That's productive. IOW, since your pet groups have been persecuted,
nobody should be allowed to speak freely.

- jt

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These
are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of
posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

The pro-life movement, specifically the Pro-Life Action League and Joe
Schiedler, did all the way to the Supreme Court where they won.  It took
many, many years, much personal sacrifice and much money.  Many other
groups came in as friends of the court when they saw their right to free
speech could be affected.  Get started.  Where were you when the Rico
case against them was started?

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joshua Tinnin
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 8:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets


-Caveat Lector-

Don't be absurd. That sounds rather like what you're suggesting,
however, or maybe something more like sour grapes. I think a more
honorable course of action, if your group or one you agree with is
prevented from speaking, would be to work harder to see that everyone
can speak freely, including people you disagree with, otherwise you're
just a hypocrite when you talk about free speech. Of course there are
hypocrites on both sides of issues who only scream free speech when it
concerns them. Don't be one.

- jt

On Saturday, 01 November 2003 12:21 AM -0700,
Zuukie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Are you saying you believe in free speech except for
 ___(fill in the blank   with whatever you oppose)?

 -Original Message-
 From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Joshua Tinnin
 Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:01 PM

 On Thursday, 30 October 2003 7:23 PM -0700,
 Zuukie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-
 
  When it happened to pro-lifers, you said nothing.  When it happened
  to

  protesters at the Democratic Convention, you said nothing.  Let's
  see what happens to your complaints.

 That's productive. IOW, since your pet groups have been persecuted,
 nobody should be allowed to speak freely.

 - jt

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These
are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of
posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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Re: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

I don't have to prove myself to you either.  I am for free speech for
everyone, including Shannon.  However, the left has made it a point to
shut down everyone's free speech and as long as they were top dog, they
were happy.  Now that someone has tried to shut them off, they yell very
loud.  Just as conservatives on campus, in the papers and in the
community have had to fight the good fight, it's time the left knew what
the good fight was.  Go to it.  Fight the good fight for free speech.
The campus establishment and the media coddled the left for a long time.
I hope you work very hard for your free speech.  Your battle will only
help all of us.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joshua Tinnin
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 5:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets


-Caveat Lector-

Zukkie, I've been a free speech advocate practically my whole life. I
need not prove myself to you. Where are you now that someone else is
losing their right to speech? All I see is your saying that, since your
favorite groups had difficulties, then screw everyone else's right to
speech.

- jt

On Saturday, 01 November 2003 8:16 AM -0700,
Zuukie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The pro-life movement, specifically the Pro-Life Action League and Joe

 Schiedler, did all the way to the Supreme Court where they won.  It
 took many, many years, much personal sacrifice and much money.  Many
 other groups came in as friends of the court when they saw their right

 to free speech could be affected.  Get started.  Where were you when
 the Rico case against them was started?

 -Original Message-
 From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Joshua Tinnin
 Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 8:12 AM


 Don't be absurd. That sounds rather like what you're suggesting,
 however, or maybe something more like sour grapes. I think a more
 honorable course of action, if your group or one you agree with is
 prevented from speaking, would be to work harder to see that everyone
 can speak freely, including people you disagree with, otherwise you're

 just a hypocrite when you talk about free speech. Of course there are
 hypocrites on both sides of issues who only scream free speech when it

 concerns them. Don't be one.

 - jt

 On Saturday, 01 November 2003 12:21 AM -0700,
 Zuukie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Are you saying you believe in free speech except for
  ___(fill in the blank   with whatever you oppose)?
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  On Behalf Of Joshua Tinnin
  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:01 PM
 
  On Thursday, 30 October 2003 7:23 PM -0700,
  Zuukie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
  
   When it happened to pro-lifers, you said nothing.  When it
   happened to
 
   protesters at the Democratic Convention, you said nothing.  Let's
   see what happens to your complaints.
 
  That's productive. IOW, since your pet groups have been persecuted,
  nobody should be allowed to speak freely.
 
  - jt

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These
are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of
posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat

Re: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

When it happened to pro-lifers, you said nothing.  When it happened to
protesters at the Democratic Convention, you said nothing.  Let's see
what happens to your complaints.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Stewart
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] Free Speech Kept Off US Streets


-Caveat Lector-

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5084.htm

Free Speech Kept Off US Streets

Officials deny plot to herd dissenters into protest pens But
sign-carriers testify to being hustled out of sight

by David Lindorff

10/26/03: (Toronto Star) When retired Pittsburgh steelworker Bill Neel
learned that President George W. Bush was coming to town last year, he
decided he would be on hand to protest the president's economic
policies.


Neel and his sister made a hand-lettered sign  The Bush family must
surely love the poor! They have made so many of us!  and headed for a
road where the motorcade would pass.

But he never got to display his sign for Bush to see.

As he stood among milling groups of Bush supporters, he was approached
by a local police detective and told that he and his sister had to move
to a free-speech area for protesters, on orders of the U.S. Secret
Service.

He pointed out a relatively remote baseball diamond that was enclosed
in a chain-link fence, Neel recalls.

I could see these people behind the fence, with their faces up against
it, and their hands on the wire.

It looked more like a concentration camp than a free-speech area to me,
so I said, `I'm not going in there. I thought the whole country was a
free- speech area.'

After refusing several times to go to the area, he was handcuffed and
arrested on a charge of disorderly conduct.

When his sister argued against the arrest, she was cuffed and hauled off
as well. The two spent the president's visit in a firehouse that was
serving as Secret Service headquarters for the event.

The Neels' experience is not unique.

On Sept. 23, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit in a
federal court in Philadelphia against the Secret Service, alleging that
the agency, a unit of the new Homeland Security Department charged with
protecting the president and other key officials, instituted a policy in
the months even before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks of instructing
local police to cordon off protesters from the president and
Vice-President Dick Cheney.

The ACLU has identified 17 separate incidents in which protesters were
segregated or removed during presidential or vice-presidential events.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is just the tip of the iceberg, says
Pittsburgh ACLU legal director Witold Walczak. We don't have the
resources to follow Bush and Cheney everywhere they go.

The suit comes at a time of mounting charges by civil libertarians on
both left and right that the Bush administration and Attorney-General
John Ashcroft's justice department are trampling on civil liberties.

In its complaint, the ACLU cites nine cases since March, 2001, in which
protesters were quarantined. And it alleges that the Secret Service,
with the assistance of state and local police, is systematically
violating protesters' First Amendment rights via two methods.

Under the first form, the suit says,  the protesters are moved
further away from the location of the official and/or the event,
allowing people who express views that support the government to remain
closer.

Under the second form, everyone expressing a view  either critical or
supportive of the government  is moved further away, leaving people who
merely observe, but publicly express no view, to remain closer.

In either case, the complaint adds, protesters are typically segregated
into what are commonly referred to as `protest zones.'

Besides violating a fundamental right of free speech and assembly, the
ACLU says, the strategy is damaging in two ways: It insulates the
government officials from seeing or hearing the protesters and
vice-versa, and it gives to the media and the American public the
appearance that there exists less dissent than there really is.

Certainly, as television cameras follow a presidential motorcade lined
with cheering supporters, the image on the tube will be distorted if
protesters have been spirited away around a corner somewhere fenced in
for the duration.

Secret Service official deny discriminating against protesters.

The Secret Service is message-neutral, said John Gill. We make no
distinction on the basis of the purposes or intent of any group or the
content of signs.

Further, Gill insisted the establishment and oversight of local viewing
areas is the responsibility of state and local law enforcement.

In practice, it's apparently not that simple, though. Nor is the Secret
Service's carefully worded denial of responsibility as definitive as it
might appear.

The establishment of viewing areas is indeed a local 

Re: [CTRL] Fox News Viewers at the Bottom of the Barrel

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Any weapons 
the Iraqishad couldhave beengiven to others or sold during the 
time we were playing "should we or shouldn't we" games.Anyone 
operating at Saddam's level wasn't going to be stupid enoughto take on 
theUS. There are political networks in this world which are quite 
unknown to the average person who relies only onnews sources from Fox to 
PBS. Fox has its agenda as does PBS. As was said elsewhere, the best 
propaganda is 75% truth. Does it really matter if someone believes Fox or 
PBS? Probably not.This kind of information spins elections, 
but once in office the electedreally don't care what thepeople in 
their district think. A more interesting poll would be to ask 
respondants what they have done based on whatever they believe. 


  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
  McBrideSent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 3:50 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Fox News Viewers at the Bottom 
  of the Barrel-Caveat Lector- 
  
  

  The chart below is almost 
  hilarious. Fox News viewers might just as well wear a sticker on their 
  foreheads reading, "I am a moron."
  
  Rupert Murdoch, international 
  multibillionaire, owner of Fox News, Octopus principal, pro-Israel zealot, 
  master of lies and deception, manipulator and exploiter of the dim 
  masses
  
  http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/special_packages/iraq/6918170.htm
  
  


  

  
  Posted on Thu, Oct. 02, 2003
  
  

  

  
Study: 
Wrong impressions helped support Iraq warBy FRANK 
DAVIESKnight Ridder Newspapers

  

  
  

  

  


  

  

  

  
WASHINGTON - A majority of Americans have held 
at least one of three mistaken impressions about the U.S.-led war in 
Iraq, according to a new study released Thursday, and those 
misperceptions contributed to much of the popular support for the 
war.
The three common mistaken impressions are that:

U.S. forces found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. 


There's clear evidence that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein worked 
closely with the Sept. 11 terrorists. 


People in foreign countries generally either backed the U.S.-led war 
or were evenly split between supporting and opposing it. 

Overall, 60 percent of Americans held at least one of those views in 
polls reported between January and September by the Program on 
International Policy Attitudes, based at the University of Maryland in 
College Park, and the polling firm, Knowledge Networks based in Menlo 
Park, Calif.
"While we cannot assert that these misperceptions created the support 
for going to war with Iraq, it does appear likely that support for the 
war would be substantially lower if fewer members of the public had 
these misperceptions," said Steven Kull, who directs Maryland's 
program.
In fact, no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq. U.S. 
intelligence has found no clear evidence that Saddam was working closely 
with al-Qaida or was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Gallup 
polls found large majorities opposed to the war in most countries.
PIPA's seven polls, which included 9,611 respondents, had a margin of 
error from 2 to 3.5 percent.
The analysis released Thursday also correlated the misperceptions 
with the primary news source of the mistaken respondents. For example, 
80 percent of those who said they relied on Fox News and 71 percent of 
those who said they relied on CBS believed at least one of the three 
misperceptions.
The comparable figures were 47 percent for those who said they relied 
most on newspapers and magazines and 23 percent for those who said they 
relied on PBS or National Public Radio.
The reasons for the misperceptions are numerous, Kull and other 
analysts said.
They noted that the Bush administration had misstated or exaggerated 
some of the intelligence findings, with Bush himself saying in May: "We 
found the weapons of mass destruction  and we'll find more as time goes 
by."
The Bush administration has also been a factor in persistent 
confusion.
Last month, for example, Bush said there was no evidence that Saddam 
was involved in the Sept. 11 attack after Vice President Dick Cheney 
suggested a link. Cheney, in a "Meet the Press" interview, had described 

[CTRL]

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



From the Financial Times out of 
London. 

  
  


  

  EU looking to defence harmony by 2010

  By Judy Dempsey in Rome

  Published: October 4 2003 5:00 | Last Updated: October 4 
2003 5:00

  

  


Europe's defence ministers yesterday backed ambitious plans to have 
their armed forces capable of working together by 2010. The radical 
plans would apply to resources, doctrines and 
equipment.


  
  

  

The initiative is part of a strategy aimed at creating defence 
structures in the European Union that are more coherent, homogenous and 
able to respond quickly to crises.
Even though 11 European Union countries are members of the Nato 
military alliance, EU member states have made little progress towards 
harmonising the military equipment they purchase or co-ordinating their 
capabilities.
The calls for a greater push on military capabilities were made by 
Javier Solana, the EU foreign policy chief, and Antonio Martini, defence 
minister of Italy, also chairing the EU's rotating presidency.
Both said Europe's ambitions to have a strong and effective security 
and defence policy - particularly in crisis management, conflict 
prevention and peacekeeping missions - could not be achieved without 
better capabilities. These included logistics and the ability to sustain 
troops on the ground for long periods.
A paper presented by Italy, said that if the EU wanted to be active 
"it must develop a strategic culture that favours early, rapid and, when 
necessary, robust intervention in order to try to head off or defuse 
crises".
Italy also called for a special agency to co-ordinate capabilities 
among the member states. Geoff Hoon, British defence minister, and Henk 
Kamp, his Dutch counterpart, suggested Mr Solana head the agency, which 
could be set up by December.
Mr Solana, who has spent the past four years trying to improve 
Europe's security/defence capabilities, said there was little point in 
member countries offering forces if they were not "usable in real 
operations". The EU, he added, needed armed forces that were "agile, 
flexible, deployable and sustainable".
That meant combining forces, focusing on quality and beefing up 
military spending.
In 2000 the EU average defence expenditure as a percentage of gross 
domestic product was 1.8 per cent, compared with the Pentagon's 3.1 per 
cent.
Lord Robertson, Nato secretary-general, said yesterday that the 
Europeans had to spend on quality, not quantity, particularly on 
research and development.

  http://news.ft.com/home/us
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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A HREF=""ctrl/A

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Om

[CTRL] Identity cards

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Again, from the Financial Times of London

A necessary bureaucratic tool for Europe
By Robert Graham and Raphael Minder
Published: October 3 2003 20:31 | Last Updated: October 3 2003 20:31


The idea of a powerful and intrusive administrative machine, combined
with petty officialdom, makes British hackles rise over the introduction
of identity cards. Yet in continental Europe, where the identity card
has long been in use, it is regarded as a necessary bureaucratic tool
rather than a restraint on individual liberties.


In most European capitals, identity cards are a fact of everyday life,
as much as credit cards. And where they exist, identity cards have
become even more acceptable now that people are allowed to use them to
cross borders in the Schengen area - Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland,
France, Germany, Greece, Holland, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Norway,
Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Norway, and Iceland - without a passport.

The Schengen agreement allows each nation to design its own identity
cards.

Now there are moves to introduce electronic identity cards with a more
intrusive biometric system of identification.

The German identity card currently has a barcode and provides limited
personal information such as eye colour. Portugal's card includes a
fingerprint. Italy's card leaves a space for a sophisticated fingerprint
which has yet to be used; the photograph of the holder is merely stapled
on rather than engraved.

In France, there are plans for the reproduction of a fingerprint, the
structure of the hand and the iris. There has been some controversy over
the issue of whether women should be allowed to use photographs of
themselves wearing the Muslim head scarf. The interior ministry has
ruled against this practice.

France was the first country to introduce a form of identity card in
1888. The measure was conceived not to provide documents for the local
population but to obtain better control over foreigners inside the
country. In 1893, French law formally required foreigners wanting to
work in France to obtain an identity card. During the first wor ld war
the measure was extended for security reasons to include all foreigners
on French territory.

The French national identity card dates from 1965 - a near passport-size
two-page document. The photographs on this version were relatively easy
to replace and a more sophisticated plastic card was introduced in 1992.

Unlike passports, the issuing of identity cards has been free in France
since 1988.

Within EU countries the debate now is about what sort of identity
document should be required of temporary residents and migrant workers.

This week EU interior ministers signalled their willingness to back a
proposal from the European Commission to include biometric technology on
visas and residency permits to help combat forgery and illegal
immigration.

The Commission's proposal is that by 2006 EU countries issuing visas
would include a photograph and fingerprint - the latter being stored
electronically in a computer chip on the travel documents.

The UK may be thinking about the use of an ID card but everywhere else
in Europe the debate has moved a lot further than that, said one senior
EU official.

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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Om

[CTRL] International Law

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



is in a libertarian law professor's blogAOL 
link: The Volokh 
Conspiracy Text URL: 
http://volokh.com/Quote - with links to the original 
article:"
[Eugene Volokh, 10:35 
  AM]Signing treaties may erode the Bill of Rights: American decisions 
  to sign on to international treaties may erode the protections of the Bill of 
  Rights, for instance the First Amendment. Yes, the Supreme Court has 
  supposedly said otherwise, in Reid v. Covert (1957): "[N]o agreement 
  with a foreign nation can confer power on the [federal government] which is 
  free from the restraints of the Constitution" (speaking of the Bill of 
  Rights). But it turns out that this supremacy of the Bill of Rights really 
  isn't that strong: The President and the Senate can, in the long run, 
  "insinuat[e] international law" that would create "a partial displacement of 
  constitutional hegemony" (for instance, with "an international norm against 
  hate speech . . . supply[ing] a basis for prohibiting it, the First Amendment 
  notwithstanding"). "In the short term," international norms would and should 
  be "relevan[t] . . . in domestic constitutional interpretation." But "In the 
  long run, it may point to the Constitution's more complete 
  subordination." These quotes are not from 
  some anti-internationalist "The U.N. is coming to take away our liberties" 
  conservatives. They are from a recent article by Prof. Peter Spiro, one of the 
  leading American international law scholars; the article, called Treaties, 
  International Law, and Constitutional Rights, was published in the 
  Stanford Law Review, which is generally seen as one of the top 3 
  legal journals in the country. Prof. Spiro 
  is both defending the notion that treaties should be able to trump 
  constitutional rights -- "If some constitutional norms are more 
  appropriately set at the international level" (and he believes they are), 
  "that should justify a treaty power that, in some cases, overcomes even the 
  Bill of Rights" -- and predicting that treaties will over time do so. 
  Courts, he acknowledges, would try to "maintain[] the formal hegemony of the 
  domestic constitution," but "this formal hegemony may disguise a loss of 
  domestic constitutional autonomy over the long run." "Constitutional rights 
  'adjusted' by treaty norms are changed by them. The Constitution is read to 
  conform with the treaty." Of course, some 
  people may be quite happy about this: They might well conclude that parts of 
  the Bill of Rights should be superseded by "international" norms. They 
  may think the international lawmaking community (mostly, I suspect, composed 
  of European legal and political elites, plus of course those segments of 
  American legal and political elites that are involved in this field) will 
  indeed reach better results than those provided for by the current 
  understanding of the U.S. Constitution. But 
  those of us who disagree should vigilantly watch for, and resist, the 
  "displacement of constitutional hegemony" that the article welcomes. We should 
  insist that the President and the Senate consistently stress in all the 
  treaties they sign and ratify that our agreement to the treaty is constrained 
  by our Constitution, and that the treaty should be read to conform to the 
  Constitution, and not the other way around. We should criticize judges who 
  rely on international norms in interpreting American constitutional provisions 
  (in this respect, reading Prof. Spiro's article has led me to reconsider some 
  of my views in this post, and to view with much more alarm reliance on 
  international law in American constitutional interpretation). And we 
  should assiduously publicize the ways in which international rules are, in our 
  view, worse than ours, for instance to show that foreign bans on "hate speech" 
  actually end up banning (as American First Amendment thinking would have 
  suggested) a good deal of speech that deserves to be protected (see, for 
  instance, this 
  post by David Bernstein). Our Constitution 
  is far from perfect, both as written and as interpreted. I think courts should 
  indeed change their views on many issues, and people should try to press 
  courts to do so. But this should be our decision as Americans. We should not 
  cede our control over our constitutional rights to international bodies, 
  international professional elites, or even to our own President and 
  Senate. In any event, that's just my opinion. 
  Read the 
  Stanford Law Review article, which is fortunately quite readable 
  and not terribly long (30 law review pages) for a different 
view."
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright 

Re: [CTRL] Occult Symbolism: As American as Baseball

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Would you care to 
repeat your post, just sticking to what you consider facts and eliminating all 
of your emotional opinions? It's obvious you are passionate 
aboutyour very slanted beliefs regarding Christians. Your very 
emotional posts, when mixed withyour overrated personal estimate of your 
intelligence makes it difficult to have a civil discussion with you. Your 
approach to reality has all of the hallmarks of thedictatorial thinking 
you pretend to attack. Intelligent people do not see the world in the 
black and white way you seem to see it.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David 
  SutherlandSent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:49 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Occult Symbolism: As 
  American as Baseball-Caveat Lector- 
  
  

  
As sickly humorous 
as this rubbish is; it is also ridiculous Clerico-Xtian-Fascist 
drivel.

The author is 
apparently clueless to the fact that the origins of 'Illuminati Conspiracy's 
fantasy was penned by the Roman Catholic Jesuits. The fevered anti-Semitic 
imaginations of the RC Jesuits led them to finally 'expose' the Jews as 
themastersofthe Illuminati.


The prime source 
of this conspiracy theory (latter 1700's) was the Jesuit cleric 
Abbe' Augustin Barruel who published hisparanoid conspiracy 
manifesto,"Memoires pour servir a l'Histoire du Jacobinisme or 
Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism,"which blamed a 
vast, arcaneIlluminati conspiracy, and the Freemasons 
as part of the Illuminati apparatus, as being out to destroy 
Catholic Europe.

If one 
compares the idealism of Adam Weishaupt with the nonsensical babblings of 
the clerics of his day, in the modern world one would have to say that the 
clerics appear completely bigoted and mad, whilst Weishaupt sounds an 
utterly reasonable personage.

When Thomas 
Jefferson was handed some of the Jesuit Barruel's paranoid conspiracy writ, 
he had cause to denounce them as the rants of a lunatic. 


Fundi Xtians talk 
much about a return to the roots of Americanism and in the same breath 
denounce Illuminati or Masonic ideals simultaneouslyliving in a state 
of amnesia to the fact that the ideals of 
thesegroupswerethe 
source of foundational principles of America and because of 
these principles the early Christians enjoyed the freedoms they did. 


Most of those 
first Christians were Protestant sects in one form or another taking flight 
from persecution and deathlevelled against them by Catholic 
Europe.

An important 
objective in the establishment of American liberty, Masons, Protestants, 
Freethinkers, and dare one say it Jews and Pagans all sought to rightfully 
establish the wall of separation between religion and 
state. This principle of human liberty is under the most 
malignant attack in America. As can be seen by the words the article, 
"We need good men in every institution, on every 
corner, and in every family to stand up for the good of our 
world".We are told that these sole"good men" are 
thoseFundi- idolaters, apocalyptic doomsayers,"reading 
Revelations!" What an insult to the intelligence of every 
non-ecclesiastically brainwashed person.

In substance, on 
the one hand Rightists, Xtain Fundi's, Conspiracy kooks allpine for 
certain alleged traditional root-values of Americanism, whilst on the other 
they simultaneously assert that the evil Masons and et al established 
America! 

Such schizophrenic 
attitudes perhaps reflect the dumbed-down, illogical and brainwashed state 
of many professed Xtians in America. It is no wonder they are held as a 
laughing-stock and in derision throughout the world by civilized, 
intelligent people.

Should Americans 
listen to these schizophrenic, paranoidvoices, and allow them more 
authority and power, they will by no means be returning to some idyllic, 
foundational Americanism, but to a medievalism run by superstitious monks 
and a hierocracy not unlike some Arab lands today in the grip of intolerant, 
raving mad mullahs.

Dave.
  
  
  - conspiracy Message - 
  From: "iNFoWaRZ" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:31 
  PM
  Subject: [CTRL] Occult Symbolism: As American as 
  Baseball
  -Caveat Lector-Occult Symbolism: As American as BaseballBy 
  Randy LavelloFrom: www.prisonplanet.comMuch mystery and exaggeration surrounds the influence of Freemasonry on 
  the birth and growth of these United States. Freemasonry was conducted in 
  private with exclusive membership; it comes under the title of an occult group 
  because, by definition, this is a group that 

Re: [CTRL] Paranoid? Israel Seeks Removal Of Saudi F-15's

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Prudy, trust between countries 
is fragile. Human lives are at issue on both sides of the line. 
Saudis kill Israelis. Israeli's kill Saudis. Saudis then kill Americans 
because they have been taught that Americans support Israelis. And there you sit 
at your keyboard, trusting that no one ends your life of that of your 
community. Or maybe you just don't carewho dies on any 
side of the line.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prudy 
  LSent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 8:12 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Paranoid? Israel Seeks 
  Removal Of Saudi F-15's-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 9/3/2003 8:31:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Report: Israel seeks removal of F-15 planes from Saudi 
airport 03-09-2003 Israel wants Saudi Arabia to 
remove dozens of F-15 aircraft from the Tabouk airport, located in the 
northern part of the Kingdom, not far from the Israeli border, Israel's Army 
Radio reported Wednesday. God forbid that anything or 
  anyone pose a threat to Israel, that bastion of peace and brotherly 
  love. Prudy www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == 
  CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing 
  propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! 
  These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, 
  mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups 
  with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and 
  thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, 
  and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no 
  credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Hitler and the Secret Societies

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Well, I guess if we are to go 
down the New Age/Nazi path, people like Evola are needed to talk intellectually 
about how Hitler was not reallyconnected with the not-open-to-the-public 
occult groups so suckers are not scared off. A very easy search of the net 
will show the behind the scenes Evola, an example of which 
follows.

Introduction to Magicby Julius 
Evola
Rituals and Practical Techniques for the Magus! Anyone who has exhausted the 
possibilities of the mundane world and is ready to take the steps necessary to 
purify the soul in the light of knowledge and the fire of dedication will find a 
number of expert mentors here. This powerful book is the most complete and the 
highest magical teaching ever set before the public.
Evola is hot stuff 
these days, from Pravada to the serial murderers out of the Muslim 
community. 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 9:30 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Hitler and 
  the Secret Societies-Caveat Lector- http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/hitler.htmlHitler and the Secret 
  Societiesby Julius 
  Evola(from Il Conciliatore, no. 10, 1971; translated from 
  the German edition in Deutsche Stimme, no. 8, 1998)
  
www.ctrl.org
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] Holy Genes Conspiracy

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

It's not a matter of genes or blood because once a person converts, they
are a member of the Jewish community, no matter what bloodline or gene
pool they bring into the community.  It's a matter of the commitment to
a moral belief system which binds people together.  If someone converts
out, a blood sample is not the way back into the community.  The
ancestry part is recognized with the idea that grandparents, parents,
etc. have passed on certain patterns of moral beliefs and their origins
and even if one is not active in the community, the pattern has been
somehow passed on.  Whether Jewish or not, we all tend to trust people
who say their thinking is similar to one's own.  Jews trust those who
say they think like Jews.  Jew haters trust other Jew haters.  Doctors
trust other doctors who are part of their group.  Osteopaths trust other
osteopaths.  Teachers have a commonality with other teachers.  And so
on.  Teachers, doctors, and other name groups will stake out what they
think is their own territory and will fight anyone who they think
infringes.  Territory can mean anything from  land to status to control
of a board.  And that's the bottom line of many of the conflicts between
humans.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Party of Citizens
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] Holy Genes Conspiracy

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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[CTRL] From Townhall

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Whether one is on 
the left or right, this is an important article regarding air 
safely. Dead is dead no matter whether one is on the right or 
left.
Pilot to 
Passengers: "I'm unarmed"Paul Jacob (archive)
September 7, 
2003 |  
Print |  Send 
 
Suppose terrorists sneak aboard your flight. Perhaps they have failed to 
smuggle (conventional, metallic) weapons on board. What they do have are their 
intentions, their training, and their willingness to die. 
The flight attendants solicit your attention, and explain what to do in the 
event of an emergency. They demonstrate the use of the oxygen masks and the 
flotation devices. There's a short film. Then you hear from one of the pilots. 

"Welcome aboard. This is Joe, your flight captain. We're cruising at 
such-and-such thousand feet, at such-and-such miles per hour. The skies are 
clear and we expect smooth sailing. And oh, by the way--I'm unarmed. And the 
co-pilot is unarmed. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight." 
No sane pilot would announce that the residents of the cockpit are easy 
pickings. But if such an in-flight admission were indeed made on an American 
jumbo jet in the America of September 11, 2003, would any stray terrorists among 
the passengers learn anything they don't already know? 
Here's the problem. Two years after the 911 attacks--almost a year after 
Congress authorized a broad program to arm commercials pilots--the 
Transportation Security Administration is dragging its feet, making it almost 
impossible for pilots to defend themselves against lethal force with lethal 
force of their own. The TSA prefers air marshals to handle the 
last-line-of-defense type thing. Which is fine, so long as the bad guys pick a 
plane with an air marshal, and the air marshal succeeds in overpowering the bad 
guys when the bad guys make their move. 
Back when Congress was debating whether pilots should or should not be in a 
position to shoot at terrorists who breach the cockpit, some persons wondered 
whether pilots could be trusted with so dangerous an object as a gun. Perhaps 
instead of steering the plane the pilots would accidentally shoot up the 
instrument panel or something. 
At the time, Transportation Committee Chairman Don Young observed that "armed 
F-16s are prepared to shoot down any commercial jet that is hijacked by 
terrorists [W]e must allow trained and qualified pilots to serve as the last 
line of defense against such a potential disaster."
Even Senator Barbara Boxer, normally in favor of victim disarmament, stressed 
the obvious. She asked us to imagine, should another 911-style attack occur, 
"how the survivors of all those passengers and crew will feel if we failed to 
allow pilots to have guns to defend the plane and an American flight was brought 
down by the American military." 
Pilots and passengers won the congressional battle over authorizing pilot 
self-defense. But the agency charged with the implementation isn't implementing. 
The TSA is actively deterring pilots from applying for arms training. In pursuit 
of its obstructionist agenda, TSA is:

  Allocating, reluctantly, only miniscule funds to the urgent task 
  of training pilots. The agency is much more worried about training 
  and mis-training the tens of thousands of airport security personnel charged 
  with patting down grandmothers and ten-year-olds. 
  Arbitrarily relocating class sites to make life harder for 
  instructors now training pilots. "No sooner had the first class 
  of armed pilots graduated from the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in 
  Glynco, Georgia," report Dave Kopel and David Petteys, "than the TSA announced 
  the program would be relocated to Artesia, New Mexico. Experienced instructors 
  in Georgia have the option of quitting their jobs, or moving their families to 
  a remote town which is 186 miles by car from Lubbock, Texas, the nearest major 
  city." 
  Subjecting applicants to a seemingly endless barrage of checks and 
  tests. As Captain Denny Breslin, a spokesman for the Allied Pilots 
  Association, has pointed out: "The TSA has forced the [Federal Flight Deck 
  Officer Program] to conform to its own bureaucratic image of a weak, 
  perfunctory program in reluctant compliance with a law they did not like in 
  the first place. [T]he TSA has TSA has made the program so onerous for pilots 
  with ludicrous levels of background and psychological testing that it is 
  obvious they are trying to intentionally discourage participation." 
So today, two years after 911, less than 150 pilots are qualified to bear 
arms in the cockpit. It's as if the terrorists have found a way to infiltrate 
the Transportation Security Administration.
Thousands of pilots could be trained in short order if the agency simply 
farmed out the job to private training academies. But that's too easy and 
sensible for government work. 
There are over 66,000 members of the Air Pilots Association. On any 

Re: [CTRL] Holy Genes Conspiracy

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

You asked.  The answer is the Torah.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Party of Citizens
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 3:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Holy Genes Conspiracy


-Caveat Lector-

 * http://www.geocities.com/partyofcitizens **

On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Zuukie wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 It's not a matter of genes or blood because once a person converts,
 they are a member of the Jewish community, no matter what bloodline or

 gene pool they bring into the community.  It's a matter of the
 commitment to a moral belief system which binds people together.

What is there to this moral belief more central than the hatred of
Christ and the love of antichrists (I John 2:22)?

POC
(LEZ)

  If someone converts
 out, a blood sample is not the way back into the community.  The
 ancestry part is recognized with the idea that grandparents, parents,
 etc. have passed on certain patterns of moral beliefs and their
 origins and even if one is not active in the community, the pattern
 has been somehow passed on.  Whether Jewish or not, we all tend to
 trust people who say their thinking is similar to one's own.  Jews
 trust those who say they think like Jews.  Jew haters trust other Jew
 haters.  Doctors trust other doctors who are part of their group.
 Osteopaths trust other osteopaths.  Teachers have a commonality with
 other teachers.  And so on.  Teachers, doctors, and other name groups
 will stake out what they think is their own territory and will fight
 anyone who they think infringes.  Territory can mean anything from
 land to status to control of a board.  And that's the bottom line of
 many of the conflicts between humans.

 -Original Message-
 From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Party of Citizens
 Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:23 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [CTRL] Holy Genes Conspiracy

 www.ctrl.org
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
 screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These
are
 sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths,
 mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different

 groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of
 time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the
 validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you

 read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not
 apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 ==
 ==
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www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These
are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of
posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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Om

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil

Re: [CTRL] Cult of the Antichrist

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Do you ever research what you talk about?  Jews are not obsessed about
Jesus and the topic comes up rarely. Christians are not obsessed with
Judaism, though they watch what is happening as a result of knowing that
monotheism is being attacked.  It's antisemites who are obsessed with
hatred of the Jews and assume that obsession is a normal mental state.
Judaism and Christianity are two separate religions whose adherents do
not meld with each other nor do they blend into something called United
Religion.  That's why the fundamental adherents  of these two religions
are targeted by New Age believers who want to throw all belief systems
into one big blender and come up with a mishmash that is supposed to be
accepted by all believers.

New Age promotes abortion, euthanasia and eugenics.  It becomes
important for New Age to force individuals into a camp that accepts
these things.

-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Party of Citizens
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 3:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] Cult of the Antichrist

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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[CTRL] Solana says Roadmap live

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-





  
  

  Solana says roadmap 
  alive 
  
BEIRUT (AFP) - EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana 
  dismissed claims by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on Wednesday that the 
  Middle East roadmap for peace was "dead". 
  The peace initiative was very much alive and needed full support, 
  Solana told a press conference in Beirut after talks with Lebanese 
  officials. 
  "I don't want to see a statement saying that the roadmap faces death. 
  The roadmap is alive and we have to maintain its life," he insisted. 
  Earlier Arafat had told CNN in an off-camera interview that the 
  Israelis, who have declared all-out war on Palestinian hardliners, had 
  killed off the project. 
  "The roadmap is dead, but only because of Israeli military aggression 
  in recent weeks," he said. 
  But Nabil Abu Rudeina, a senior advisor to the Palestinian leader in 
  the West Bank town of Ramallah, later told AFP that Palestinians remained 
  committed to the "roadmap" which he said "still exists". 
  Solana, who did not refer directly to Arafat, said the 
  internationally-backed initiative calling for the creation of a 
  Palestinian state by 2005 "is the best document" available for peace 
  between Israel and the Palestinians. 
  He admitted, however, that there was a serious deadlock facing the 
  peace process and efforts to implement the roadmap, which the European 
  Union is sponsoring along with Russia, the United States and the United 
  Nations. 
  The Middle East peace process was going through a "very delicate 
  moment", Solana said. 
  
  

  
  

  
  

 

  
  
  

  

  
  
  
Copyright © 2003 Brunei Press Sdn Bhd. All right 
reserved.
  

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:32 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] The Peace 
  Plan Is Dead-Caveat Lector- http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20030905/index.phpThe 
  Peace Plan Is Deadby Charley Reese"To sum up: The Road Map is 
  dead, because Sharon was against it from the beginning, Bush saw it only as a 
  photo opportunity on a nice background and Abu Mazen did not get from Israel 
  and the U.S. anything that he could present as a Palestinian 
  achievement."Those are the words of an Israeli writer, Uri Avnery. He 
  is exactly right, despite Condoleezza Rice's schizoid claim that the peace 
  plan is still alive. It's stone-cold dead. Heck, I told you so the day it was 
  announced. The peace plan was bound to fail because President George W. Bush 
  is too gutless to confront Israeli Prime Minster Ariel Sharon, and a 
  Palestinian state is the last thing in the world Sharon wants.The 
  Palestinian prime minister, Abu Mazen (also known as Mahmoud Abbas), got a 
  cease-fire, but, of course, Sharon simply continued to assassinate Palestinian 
  leaders until he finally provoked the bus bombing. It was Sharon who violated 
  the cease-fire, just as it was Sharon who started the intifada, but America's 
  lap-dog media will never tell you that.You have to understand the 
  language of propaganda. All Sharon has said over and over  while Bush, like 
  an obedient dummy, repeats it  is that the Palestinians must "dismantle the 
  infrastructure of the terrorists." Israel, of course, from Bush's standpoint 
  doesn't have to do any of its share of the peace plan.Well, dust off 
  your brain and think about that. Have we, a superpower, been able to dismantle 
  the infrastructure of terrorists? Has Israel, a regional superpower, been able 
  to dismantle the infrastructure of terrorists? The answer in both cases is 
  "no." Then how could a weak Palestinian prime minister with no army do it? The 
  answer is, of course, he could not. Moreover, Sharon knew he could not, and 
  Bush is too naive to understand what's going on around him. The way you 
  discredit somebody is to give him or her a task you know the person cannot do. 
  That's what Sharon-Bush did to Abu Mazen.Now Sharon has a free hand. 
  He can go on expanding Jewish settlements, go on assassinating Palestinians, 
  go on demolishing their homes, go on building an apartheid wall, go on making 
  their lives a living hell with closures, curfews and checkpoints. And Bush 
  will stand there, pathetically weak and indecisive, just as he has for the 
  past two years. Sharon is not only sowing the seeds of Israel's eventual 
  destruction, but he is also cutting the ground out from under Bush. Bush's 
  entire foreign-policy scheme is turning to ashes right before his 
  eyes.Remember, the grand scheme of all those neoconservative wizards 
  who have manipulated Bush was that knocking off Saddam Hussein and magically 
  converting Iraq into a liberal democracy would make it much 

Re: [CTRL] Banned Israeli Spymaster Back in U.S.

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Shannon, you must have then 
known about the story then from a member of your network because one can't seek 
a story unless one knows that it exists.unless one istiptoeing 
pasta New Age site of course. Birds of a feather and all that. 
Oh sir, you must learnthe history of the group you identify with, and that 
group is definitelynot Americans. My facts hold, although you 
do the Rumplestilskin dancewhen hearing them. 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Friday, September 05, 2003 7:44 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Banned 
  Israeli Spymaster Back in U.S.-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 9/5/2003 8:25:21 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Shannon, you linked to the Denver Spirituality people, not 
American Free Press. I linked to the only place I could find who had the 
  text to this story. It wasn't available on the AFP site as far as I could tell 
  since they typically only give out one freebie on the web and save the rest 
  for subscribers. (And incidently, I HIGHLY ENCOURAGE patriots out there to 
  subscribe to the AFP...go here 
  to subscribe to this nation's only populist, 
  America-FIRST weekly paper.) You want to be known as an expert 
  on conspiracy but you don't know the political end of the New Age movement 
  includes the Far Right in this country just as the Silver Shirts were part of 
  the Nazi movement in this country in the '30s?I don't want to be known as an "expert" and don't 
  claim to be one. I'm trying to get important information out to receptive 
  patriots who put America First...that's my SOLE motivation. Pointing out that 
  our relationship with Israel is dangerous and deadly is a part of this goal 
  and clearly the one that rubs you the wrong way since you represent Zionist 
  interests. Your smears and silly connections prove the point and also prove 
  that we're making inroads. We WILL prevail.Silver Shirts who became I Am and 
  Elizabeth Claire Prophet's group were doing the same thing as the America 
  First people? Different fronts...different names.same pot of 
  stew.This is insanity. 
  Keep making silly connections and coming to your wild conclusions all you 
  want...it exposes you. Have a nice weekend "Dorothy 
  Zuukie"...and GO BEARS!!Are you going to be a drum majorette 
  at our home opener in a few weeks??? I look forward to seeing if you can still 
  play.Bill.www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  
  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
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  HREF=""ctrl/A 
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  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
  [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Let's get down to facts

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




I brought this over from Hank 
Roth's site. It was needed to provide "the other side of the 
story."
--
There are FIVE parts to this set of articles on the Road Map, 
which is really much more than that. While it details aspects of a platform, it 
also includes reasons why Ariel Sharon has shown so much restraint and why it 
appears he isn't going to take it anymore and George Bush is pissed. Sharon has 
discovered, a bit belatedly, that George W. Bush has been putting the screws to 
him.
It is a good idea to read this on the WEB because of the inline 
links to resources.
What Israeli leader has not tried to negotiate with Palestinians 
and failed? Now it is Ariel Sharon's turn. He talked to the new Palestinian 
Prime Minister, Mamoud Abbas, who has shown himself to be as irrelevant as 
Yasser Arafat has become irrelevant to any peace process. Meanwhile there has 
developed a widening rift in the relationship between Sharon and George Bush. 
Following the Bush "line of march" has been very costly for Israel economically 
and in Jewish lives. George Bush has not been good for Israel.
There has also been diplomatic pressure on Israel ever since the 
United States declared it's war on terrorism. In order to establish an alliance, 
countries supporting the U.S. have insisted that there be linkage with pressure 
on Israel, to pull out of the territories and establish a Palestinian 
state.
(1) http://pnews.org/art/11art/1ROADMAP.shtml
Islam and the Jews have had a very unsteady and troubled coexistence since 
the Prophet Muhammad began his rule of Islam at Madina in A.D. 622, at which 
time he had very few supporters. He tried to induce the Jews to adopt Islam and 
failed. He adopted Jewish customs intended to attract Jews to Islam. He included 
the facing of Jerusalem during daily prayer, which he later changed, and ordered 
his converts to face Mecca instead, when the Jews refused to accept Islam. He 
introduced fasting for Ramadan to coincide with fasting for Yom Kipper. Still 
the Jews refused to convert.
(2) http://pnews.org/art/11art/2ROADMAP.shtml
Israels' rights in the land are greater than anyone elses. Jews never left. 
They were there for thousands of years. While they have been expelled, many 
stayed against all odds, and they always returned. Most Arabs who live in the 
region do not hold legitmate title; nothing which is continuous or can be 
established by any kind of abstract of title or deed. Many Arabs acquired land 
from the Jews by stealing it and then when Jews purchased land from rich land 
owners, it was often their own land that they were paying for and buying back. 
Israel's rights in the land was eloquently described by U.S. Senator James 
Inhofe in an address to the Senate in March - (2002).
(3) http://pnews.org/art/5art/ZIONghetto.shtml
There has been among most Jews a commitment to "Klal Yisrael", the unity of 
the Jewish people. This has been an inherent and essential component of the 
Zionist ideal. And many Jewish people stand firmly behind this idea. Some 
non-Jews attempt to define Zionism for Jews and Anti-Zionists like to assume 
that Judaism is only just a religion. If Zionism was only a religion Eretz 
Yisrael and Klal Yisrael would not have endured for 2,000 years. Jewish unity 
lasted for that period of time because Jews were committed to the idea of 
"Jewish peoplehood." Zionism is the fulfillment of Jewish unity and it is the 
preservation of Jewish peoplehood in the State of Israel where Jews have always 
lived in spite of expulsions and persecution by waves of conquerors in that 
land.
(4) http://pnews.org/art/10art/DECEIT.shtml
From "The History of Islam" (Another good reference from this same author: 
"The Arabs in History") - by Robert Payne, Payne writes: "By sabotage, by 
deceit, by the terror of Muhammad' s name, [Mecca] had been weakened, and it 
fell into his hands... like a ripe plum" (The History of Islam).
(5) http://pnews.org/art/10art/HUDNA.shtml

Hank Roth
http://pnews.org/

  
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

Re: [CTRL] Poland - Europe's First 'Zionist State'?

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



If that's what it takes to 
become a Zionist state, then Poland will know what it feels like to be in the 
midst of the Arab network called the European Union.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 7:39 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Poland - 
  Europe's First 'Zionist State'?-Caveat Lector- http://www.rense.com/general41/eur.htmPoland 
  - Europe's First 'Zionist State'?From Abraham Cohen 
  London9-4-3 Dear Mr Rense,  Poland has now 
  become a Zionist state within Europe.  Poland is setting a new 
  record as a nation which is being totally bought and controlled by the NWO 
  Zionists.  The Polish government already proved themselves as 
  assassins for hire when they agreed to send their military to join the 
  'coalition' forces to continue the 'liberation' of the ravaged people of Iraq. 
  See these stories:   http://www.thedailystar.net/2003/09/04/d3090401.htm 
  http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Sep/09042003/nation_w/89558.asp 
   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3078684.stm 
   Poland, trying to be 'more Catholic than the Pope', is selling 
  itself for hire to the highest bidder, the NWO.  Their soldiers 
  are assassinating Iraqi civilians at this very moment.  Most 
  people have forgotten the illegal weapons smuggling by Poland:  http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/pol/PolandFT17.htm 
   People forget that Poland today is a creation of Rumsfeld: 
   http://www.cybertime.net/~ajgood/forces.html 
   And today, Poland allowed the Israeli Air Force to fly over it, 
  too, ignoring the objections of the Auschwitz Museum to let the dead rest in 
  peace...  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3079016.stm 
  http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/336801.html 
  http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/breaking_news/6690696.htm 
   Sincerely. Abraham Cohen London www.ctrl.org DECLARATION 
   DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange 
  list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Banned Israeli Spymaster Back in U.S.

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Still networking with those New Agers Shannon?  I had a suspicion that
it's still going on, so I went and checked out the site where I learned
I could master Occult Laws and all kinds of New Age things.  New Age is
antisemitic.  All fits in.

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-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of William Shannon
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 7:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] Banned Israeli Spymaster Back in U.S.


-Caveat Lector-
http://www.denverspiritualcommunity.org/AmericanFreePress/AFPNewsSep03.h
tm#anchor13290



American Free Press September 1, 2003
Banned Spymaster Back in U.S.

Despite having been ordered to never again enter the United States, a
notorious Israeli spy boss is here again - and FBI agents are unable to
touch him.

By Gordon Thomas

Israel's legendary spymaster, Rafi Eitan, has made several secret trips
to the United States in the past month. But FBI agents tracking him
admit they are unable to question Eitan - the former Mossad chief who
ran Jonathan Pollard - because he travels on an Israeli diplomatic
passport.

Pollard is now serving a life sentence in a federal prison for stealing
every worthwhile intelligence secret this country had, CIA Director
George Tenet has said.

Eitan's most spectacular operation in the United States was the theft of
the highly sophisticated 

Re: [CTRL] Israeli Sleeper Agents Mobilizing For 9/11 Anniversary!

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Would you rather 
havethe followinghappen in the US? Do people in the US even 
realize this is happening in Israel? Israelis know this is happening and 
can happen in the US to Jews and others. Shannon, you live in a world of 
words where terrorism is not on your doorstep. 
This split, therefore, allows even the most heinous harms to 
others to be viewed "objectively," sometimes even as a pardonable form of 
"national liberation." For Palestinian terrorists and their supporters, the 
violent death meted out to "Jews" (it is always "Jews," never "Israelis") is 
observably an abstraction. It is "revolutionary" doctrine. Nothing else needs to 
be said.
Physical pain within the human body not only destroys ordinary 
language, it can actually bring about a visceral reversion to pre-language human 
sounds - that is, to those gutteral moans and cries and whispers that are 
anterior to learned speech. While the many Jewish victims of Palestinian 
terror writhe agonizingly from the burns and the nails and the razor blades and 
the screws dipped ever so carefully into rat poison, neither the world publics 
who unavoidably bear witness or even the murderers themselves can ever begin to 
know the real meaning of what is being suffered. This is, by no means, an excuse 
for bystanders or for perpetrators, but it does help to explain why even such 
callous murder can sometimes be misconstrued as rebellion.
From an essay by 

LOUIS RENE BERES (Ph.D., Princeton, 1971) lectures and publishes widely on 
Israeli security matters and international law. He is Strategic and Military 
Affairs Analyst for THE JEWISH PRESS.



  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 6:31 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Israeli 
  Sleeper Agents Mobilizing For 9/11 Anniversary!http://www.americanfreepress.net/08_31_03/Sleeper_Agents/sleeper_agents.htmlSleeper 
  Agents Mobilizing for 9-11 AnniversaryIsrael is secretly 
  mobilizing its sleeper agents in the United States in the run-up to the 
  anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.Exclusive to 
  American Free PressBy Gordon ThomasIn an 
  unprecedented move, Israel has secretly mobilized its estimated 15,000 sleeper 
  agents known as sayanimacross America. For the past month, in the utmost 
  secrecy, they have been briefed by former Mossad operations director, Raphael 
  (Rafi) Eitan, on how to update the defense systems of synagogues, Jewish 
  religious schools, Jewish banks, and other Jewish-owned 
  institutions.Many of the sayanimthe name comes from the Hebrew to 
  helphave received weapons training during their military service. Others 
  have worked in U.S. military intelligence. A number are currently employed by 
  police forces across the country.While their allegiance to their 
  birth country cannot be doubted, each sayan recognizes a greater loyalty: the 
  mystical one to Israel and a need to help protect it from its enemies, Meir 
  Amit, a former Mossad chief, has said. He created the secret force of 
  sayanim.Known as Israels invisible army, all its members are vetted 
  by professional Mossad intelligence officers, called katsas, before being 
  recruited.Sayanim reported that the FBI has identified 240 individuals 
  living in the United Statesmostly Saudis and Syrianswho are openly 
  sympathetic to al Qaeda.We have no hard evidence they are involved in 
  the preparation of an attack to mark the second anniversary of Sept. 11, an 
  FBI source said. Our policy is to keep close surveillance on them and move in 
  at the first sign of an attack being planned. This wait-and-see 
  policy has angered Israels Mossad, which insists an attack is being planned. 
  Israeli intelligence had given a similar warning before Sept. 11, 2001, which 
  was dismissed as being too vague by both the CIA and FBI.To protect 
  its massive multiple interests in the United States, Israel has decided to act 
  alone. It will be seen by Homeland Security and the FBI as a vote of no 
  confidence in their ability to protect Jewish interests.The 
  information of a possible attack came from two U.S.-based katsas (Mossad 
  agents). Each made a similar report to Mossad chief, Meir Dagan. Both reports 
  stated al Qaeda terrorists in Canada are preparing to launch an attack in the 
  United States. No date or target was provided.The decision to send 
  Eitanthe Mossad spy chief who persuaded Jonathan Pollard to betray all of 
  Americas most important defense secrets to Israelwas made by Prime Minister 
  Ariel Sharon.Eitan is traveling on an Israeli diplomatic passport 
  throughout the United Statesand requests to question him about his activities 
  have been rejected.In order to avoid creating a political problem with 
  Israel, FBI Director Robert Mueller is said to have been ordered by Attorney 
  General John 

Re: [CTRL] Israeli Sleeper Agents Mobilizing For 9/11 Anniversary!

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

We need to face the fact that Muslim leadership with their bloodlust has
promoted terrorism around the world.  Muslim leadership is addicted to
killing without reprisals enough to stop them.  Decency, fear of God,
civilized behaviornone of it is in their souls.  They allow their
own to be killed as they kill others in the most barbaric way.  Their
religion isn't Islam.  It's Satanism.

==
Muslims honor 9/11 hijackers!
The British-based Islamist group Al-Muhajiroun is
holding a conference on the second anniversary of
September 11 to honor the 19 terrorists who hijacked
the commercial jets used in attacks on the World Trade
Center and Pentagon.
A poster touting the event to be held at four
locations in England includes photographs of the al
Qaeda hijackers and refers to them as The Magnificent
19 - a word play on the 1960 film The Magnificent
Seven.
Omar bin Bakri Muhammad, the group's leader, told
the London Arabic newspaper Al-Sharq al-Awsat that
participants will discuss the motives of the
hijackers, whom he called heroes.
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030829-113829-1065r.htm

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of William Shannon
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 6:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] Israeli Sleeper Agents Mobilizing For 9/11 Anniversary!


http://www.americanfreepress.net/08_31_03/Sleeper_Agents/sleeper_agents.
html



Sleeper Agents Mobilizing for 9-11 Anniversary

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Protocols of Zion is the Illuminati Blueprint

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Shannnon, Is this the 
Illuminati group that you posted information on? 
I didn't know you knew about 
the link between the Illuminati and the Theosophists?

http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/prkoenig/html/history.htm


Ordo Templi Orientis'Caliphate'
History of Ordo Templi Orientisby Sabazius X° and AMT IX°[early 
version summer 1996 before it had to be corrected]from www.cinenet.net/oto/ 

Although officially founded in 1902, O.T.O. represents a surfacing and
confluence of the divergent streams of esoteric wisdom and knowledge which were
originally divided and driven underground by political and religious intolerance
during the dark ages. It draws from the traditions of the Freemasonic,
Rosicrucian and Illuminist movements of the 18th and 19th centuries, the
crusading Knights Templars of the middle ages and early Christian Gnosticism and
the Pagan Mystery Schools. Its symbolism contains a reunification of the hidden
traditions of the East and the West, and its resolution of these traditions has
enabled it to recognize the true value of Aleister Crowley's revelation of The
Book of the Law

The Spiritual Father of Ordo Templi Orientis was Carl Kellner (Renatus, Sept. 1,
1851 - June 7, 1905), a wealthy Austrian paper chemist, a Freemason, a scholar
of Eastern mysticism and an initiate of an organization called the Hermetic
Brotherhood of Light [1]. During the latter years of the 19th century, Kellner
claims to have made contact with three Adepts (a Sufi, Soliman ben Aifa, and two
Hindu Tantrics, Bhima Sena Pratapa of Lahore and Sri Mahatma Agamya
Paramahamsa). During the course of his studies, Kellner believed that he had
discovered a "Key" which offered a clear explanation of all the complex
symbolism of Freemasonry, and, Kellner believed, opened the mysteries of Nature.

To develop and disseminate his discovery, Kellner proposed in 1895 to his
associate Theodor Reuss (June 28, 1855 - Oct. 28, 1923) that a reformulation of
the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light be founded in Germany as an "Academia
Masonica" of three degrees, which would be named the Oriental Templar Order. The
Order, open only to initiates of the highest degrees of Masonry, would expound
the symbolism of all the degrees of the various rites of Masonry in the light of
the "Key" which Kellner possessed.

Theodor Reuss, was, at the time, the head of a reformation of the Bavarian Order
of Illuminati, the Grand Master of the Swedenborgian Rite of Freemasonry in
Germany, and Magus of the Societas Rosicruciana in Germania. With Kellner's
assistance, Reuss obtained charters to operate two systems of high-grade
Freemasonry known as the Rites of Memphis and Mizraim of 97*; and 90*;, and the
Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of 33*; (Cernau Council of New York, 1807)
from the English Masonic scholar, John Yarker. These rites, along with the
Swedenborgian Rite, were adopted as integral parts of the Order. The
Swedenborgian Rite included a version of the Craft degrees, and the Cernau
Scottish Rite and the Rites of Memphis and Mizraim provided a selection of the
workable "high grades" as nearly complete as had ever existed. Together, they
provided a complete system of Masonic initiation at the disposal of the Order.
With the incorporation of these rites, the Order was enabled to operate as a
completely independent Masonic system.

In 1902, the founding of Ordo Templi Orientis was officially proclaimed. Reuss
(who used the pen names Merlin and Peregrinus) was named Outer Head of the Order
(O.H.O.) with Kellner as Honorary Grand Master. Kellner died on June 7, 1905.
With the assistance of co-founders Franz Hartmann and Heinrich Klein, Reuss
prepared a Constitution of the Order in 1906. With the participation of many
other initiates, they developed O.T.O. from a loosely organized association of
rites into a complete Masonic initiatory system, open to both men and women,
which concentrated all the major symbolism of the three degrees of Craft
Freemasonry, the myriad degrees of the rites of high-grade Freemasonry and of
numerous other societies (listed below) into ten principal and eight ancillary
degrees. Kellner's three degree "Academia Masonica" formed the VII*;, VIII*;,
and IX*; of this system.

A list of the organizations whose symbolism and teachings were encompassed by
O.T.O. as an Academia Masonica was published in "The Manifesto of the O.T.O." in
1912. It included the following: The Gnostic Catholic Church, The Order of the
Knights of the Holy Ghost, The Order of the Illuminati, The Order of the Temple,
The Order of the Knights of St. John, The Order of the Knights of Malta, The
Order of the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre, The Hidden Church of the Holy Grail,
The Hermetic Brotherhood of Light, The Holy Order of Rose Croix of Heredom, The
Order of the Holy Royal Arch of Enoch, The Antient and Primitive Rite of
Masonry, The Rite of Memphis, The Rite of Mizraim, The Ancient and Accepted
Scottish Rite of Masonry, The 

Re: [CTRL] Zionists Target Children's Author

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Shannon, there was no terrorist 
leader on that bus that carried the Jews which was targeted by the murderer. 
 It was an easy target. There was no reason to target that bus 
except to create a fear in the Jewish community. Are there Muslims 
being killed in this war who are not openly terrorists? To deny it would 
be foolish. Does it affect me that it happens? I can't 
separate how I feel about Muslim innocents from what I feel about Jewish 
innocents. Lives have been destroyed andpersonally I, and many 
others, want it to stop. I don't know the Jews or the Muslims who have 
been killed, but I can only feel the loss by proxy of those on both sides. 
Can Israelis stop terrorism without killing off the killers? 
No. Do the Muslims care about their own community to protect the 
innocent? No, they hide behind their own innocent people, not caring who 
they destroy. That leadership is evil in a physical form. 


Did some Jews in leadership try 
to save Jewish lives during WWII by making deals with the Nazis? 
Yes. The historical evidence shows it. Should they have tried to 
make these deals? You need to know the Jewish view which says lives must 
be saved to understand why they did what they did. Did all Jews live up to 
the moral standards of their Jewish religion? No. Was that a reason 
to kill all Jews? No. All human beings are flawed, potentially 
making mistakes all of the time in their judgments about others. It's why 
objective standards by which to live are so important. 


Do I feel the Israelis are 
doing what they can to save lives? Yes. Do I feel the Muslims are 
doing what they can to save lives? No.



 
-Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William 
ShannonSent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 7:33 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Zionists Target Children's 
Author
-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 8/30/2003 6:07:41 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Killing a busload of religious people, including women and 
children is moral avenging for the killing of a killer? 
  Killing innocent 
  people - religious or not - is not "moral." The "collateral damage" 
  inflicted just this week by Israel in their attempted assassination of some 
  Palestinian leader was equally immoral, yet no outcry from the pseudonymous 
  Zukkster. Why not?Now 
  let's get to some academic information showing the link between the Nazi 
  movement and the Muslims.I'll get to that as soon as you explain the Zionist 
  link with the Nazis. The friendly link. The one you wish didn't exist. As soon 
  as you address that, admit that it existed, I'll play your 
  game.Bill.www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER 
  == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
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   To 
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Re: [CTRL] Zionists Target Children's Author

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



So Shannon, a Palestinian group 
took credit for the bus deaths, but you think it was really the Israelis who did 
the deed. Where was the press release that said "We would never take 
innocent lives. We would never do such a thing? Why blame the 
Palestinians?" Reality check here Shannon. 


Regarding the early years of 
Israel, I would suggest you read some books by those who were there rather 
than the revisionist nonsense that you seem to prefer. You might learn who 
owned the land, who ruled the land (big difference) and who was there1900 
to 1950.Then and now thereare two major groups fighting 
inside Israel against each other for the future of Israel. If one of them 
wins, your side will be successful and the Jewish religion will have to fight 
for its future. As a side note maybe you are willing to turn your house or 
apartment over to the Indian tribe who was on your land in the past and then 
turn over the western United States to Mexico. Heaven knows that Mexico 
wants to take it all back again right now and might be willing to take legal 
measures or cultural change to do it. "Mexican freedom fighters" and all 
that. 

In response to one of your 
other points, the Nazis are in South America or here in the US, not is 
Israel. Read the essay regarding blaming.

Shannon, I've probably read 
more than you can ever hope to read regarding Israel, Jews, Palestinians, Nazis, 
New Age etc. You are trying to bring Nazism to America. Remember 
that the Holocaust followed and that all of the others who died under that evil 
flag will be on your moral tab sheet when the reckoning 
comes.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 8:44 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Zionists 
  Target Children's Author-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 8/30/2003 8:21:43 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  There was no reason to target that bus except to create a fear 
in the Jewish community. Indeed. Makes one wonder WHO REALLY DID plan and 
  carry out that incident.The Mossad is very good at false-flag ops and this 
  certainly seems like one of theirs. "By deception thou shalt do war" 
  indeed.Can 
  Israelis stop terrorism without killing off the killers? No. 
  Do the Muslims care about their own community to protect the innocent? 
  No, they hide behind their own innocent people, not caring who they 
  destroy. That leadership is evil in a physical form. 
  No, the Israeli 
  government is at least as guilty - and I dare say more guilty - than those who 
  are simply fighting for their freedom. Terrorism was ok when it was Zionist 
  terrorism, when Irgun and Stern thugs were slaughtering innocents. But now 
  Israel doesn't like their own medicine? Too bloody bad.Did some Jews in leadership try to 
  save Jewish lives during WWII by making deals with the Nazis? Yes. 
  The historical evidence shows it. Should they have tried to make these 
  deals?Oh dear Zuukie, you neglect to mention the Zionist 
  leaders handpicking those they saved, the military fit and the wealthy. They 
  left the old, poor, mentally ill...to die of typhus or worse in camps. 
  Evidence shows that too. One also wonders how hard the Zionists worked to save 
  all the non-Jews that the Nazis also rounded up. Did they even lift a finger 
  for those poor souls?? The Nazis and the Zionist leadership were in 
  cahoots and clearly the Zionists took all they learned from their pals in the 
  Nazi party with them to Palestine where they continue to utilize such methods 
  to this day. Sickening really. Do I feel the Israelis are doing 
  what they can to save lives? Yes. Do I feel the Muslims are doing 
  what they can to save lives? No.Do I feel you're biased Dorothy? Yes. Are you at 
  all open-minded? No.I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim and had no bias going 
  in...but reading what the powerful Zionist lobby and Holocaust industry have 
  tried to suppress has been rather enlightening. Either you've been denied 
  access to the facts, or more likely you are shilling for a murderous and 
  psychotic group. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION 
   DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange 
  list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civi

[CTRL] Homes in Mexico

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Illegals canbuy here in 
America with no fear, but Americans have to fear buying homes in Mexico. 
Something isnot very reciprocalhere. 
Monday, November 6, 2000
Be careful buying home in Mexico
Diana Washington ValdezEl Paso Times
The recent case of U.S. citizens and other expatriates losing their homes on 
Ensenada Bay in Baja California ought to serve as a warning that it can be risky 
to buy real estate in foreign countries.
United States Embassy officials in Mexico apparently were unable to help the 
U.S. retirees who were ordered evicted from their homes in the Baja Beach  
Tennis Club. According to the Associated Press, Mexico's high court decided that 
although the Americans likely were tricked into building homes on disputed 
property, they don't have a right to remain in those homes.
The case affects 23 houses and calls into question the legal status of 500 to 
600 residents on the Lengueta Arenosa sand pit. Many of these people are 
retirees who invested their life savings.
Regardless of how the Americans were misled into building houses on the land, 
the incident will not sit well with foreigners who already may be skittish about 
investing in Mexico.
Research law, owners
El Pasoan Rose O'Hara said she has a relative who is interested in retiring 
in Guadalajara, but the Ensenada incident has made her hesitate. "She's not 
going to do it if she's going to lose her only home down there," she said.
Guadalajara has a significant expatriate community, and some of the longtime 
American residents can share experiences. Information about Guadalajara can be 
found on the Internet (www.mexweb.com).
Like buying real estate in any place, especially in foreign countries, it's 
important to know in advance about rules and restrictions involving foreign 
property ownership.
Experts advise consulting with a reputable real estate lawyer to determine 
whether the potential buyer can legally own the property, and whether the 
property has a clear title -- can be sold.
In the Ensenada case, the property's ownership was in dispute, a fact that 
should have alerted homeowners.
This holds true whether the real estate is in Juárez or Mexico City.
Watch for ejidos
The disputed property in Baja California dated back to a 1973 land grant, or 
ejido. The Mexican supreme court ruled that agrarian reform officials took away 
45 acres from the legal owners, and granted the property to others who 
eventually allowed the Americans to build homes there.
Jorge Vargas, a professor at the University of San Diego School of Law, told 
the Los Angeles Times that "Ejidos are in a legal state of flux, so it's very 
risky for anyone to invest in one."
Does having Mexican nationality help? Being a dual national might help, in 
some cases. However, check with your nearest Mexican consul's office on how this 
works.
The consul's office can't do a title search, but it can provide general legal 
information.
For details, it's best to consult a lawyer. 






  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim 
  RareySent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 2:31 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Home loans for illegal 
  aliens?!-Caveat Lector- 
  
  

  Homes for illegals guaranteed by the taxpayers! - 
JR
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always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Re: [CTRL] Anti-Semitic Attack A Hoax

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Please do explain 
the hoax aspect of this story.Your headingdoesn't logically 
fit with the story.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 1:11 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] 
  "Anti-Semitic" Attack A Hoax-Caveat Lector- http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/scn-sa-arson6aug27,0,2607687.story?coll=stam-news-local-headlinesFifth 
  suspicious fire ignites at homeBy Eve SullivanStaff 
  WriterAugust 27, 2003STAMFORD -- Police and firefighters 
  responded to a vacant Woodmere Road home early Monday for the fifth time in 
  five weeks to extinguish a suspicious car fire.Police also discovered 
  anti-Semitic graffiti sprayed on the outside of the house.The 
  residence and vehicle are owned by Constance Krehbiel, 58, a lawyer who lives 
  next door at 116 Woodmere Road. She was charged with second-degree arson in a 
  July 19 blaze -- the second one reported at the home.Neighbors saw a 
  1982 Chrysler New Yorker burning in the driveway of 112 Woodmere Road just 
  after midnight Monday, police said."The neighbors put it out by 
  spraying water on it," police Sgt. Russell Gladwin said.Police and 
  fire officials responded, and a fire chief deemed the blaze suspicious, the 
  sergeant said.They found obscenities, a racial slur and a swastika 
  written in red paint on the fence and side of the house, Gladwin said. A 
  blackened jar with a hole punched in the lid was discovered sitting in a pile 
  of charred newspapers under the vehicle, he said.Authorities spoke to 
  Krehbiel, who was home at the time, and she said that she owned the vehicle, 
  Gladwin said. The car was towed, leaving a pile of ashes in the 
  driveway.The first incident at 112 Woodmere Road was a small fire 
  involving a backyard fence, officials say. On July 19, a small house fire 
  occurred, according to police.On July 30, the day of the third and 
  largest fire, police got an arrest warrant for Krehbiel and charged her in the 
  second fire. A fourth fire, inside the same Chrysler, was reported to police 
  Aug. 13.Yesterday, police said they had not charged Krehbiel with the 
  fence fire, the July 30 house fire or the two suspicious car 
  fires."We're investigating the other four fires, and we are not just 
  going to jump to the conclusion that it's the same person responsible," said 
  Lt. John Forlivio, head of the detective bureau's Crimes Against Persons 
  unit.Forlivio said the vehicle was in the same location both times. 
  The first fire was in a rear passenger compartment and the second fire was on 
  the vehicle's exterior, he said.The lieutenant said there were 
  problems with the previous tenants in the house, and they were evicted. He 
  would not say whether they are suspects in any of the crimes.Krehbiel 
  appeared yesterday in state Superior Court in Stamford with her attorney 
  Michael Sherman, but her court date was continued until 
  tomorrow.Sherman, who confirmed that his client is Jewish, said she 
  noticed the fire damage to the vehicle Aug. 13 and reported it to 
  police."We were not sure whether it was old or new," he 
  said.Sherman heard an incident involving the vehicle occurred again 
  Monday, but as of yesterday afternoon, he didn't know about the anti-Semitic 
  writing.After the July 30 arrest, Sherman said Krehbiel is not guilty. 
  At her first court appearance, the case was transferred to Part A for more 
  serious crimes and no plea was entered. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION 
   DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange 
  list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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Re: [CTRL] Anti-Semitic Attack A Hoax

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Did I miss reading she was 
convicted of something?

By the way, the organizational 
linkage between the Muslims who are terrorizing Isreal, the Nazis, the fascists, 
the antisemities and the occultists is very clear. Even now in 2003. 
I say organizational because there are individuals among these groups who are 
just cannon fodder for their leaders. All of it falls under the category 
of the masses being ruled by self-appointed elites who manipulate the 
masses. There is no respect for those they use.There a lot of 
academic material out on the web. Key words, among others are: 
Theosophy, Evola, Besant, Nazis, Golden Square, Muslim Brotherhood, Mufti, New 
Age, Blavatsky. Nasty people. Would it help if I used another term 
to describe those who want to destroy Judaism, Jews and 
Israel?

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:14 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] 
  "Anti-Semitic" Attack A Hoax-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 8/31/2003 2:59:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Please do explain the hoax aspect of 
this story. Your heading doesn't logically fit with the 
  story.The attention seeking woman sought to make this 
  appear to be an "anti-Semitic" incident by spraypainting "anti-Semitic 
  graffiti" at the scene. Makes one wonder how many alleged "anti-Semitic" 
  incidents that the ADL and their ilk like to talk up, are indeed staged, 
  phony, hoaxes. I suspect it would be more than half. Can't maintaining the 
  status as the "world's only victims that matter" without more and more 
  incidents now can you? Having no incidents puts the industry out of 
  business.And let me take this moment to also say that saying "fuck 
  you" to you was crass...almost as crass as your trying to connect all who 
  oppose Zionism here and now in the year 2003 with the Nazis. The linkage 
  between the early Zionists and the Nazi party is clear. But the linkage you 
  and your people try to promote with people who today oppose Zionism and 
  American assistance to Israel with the Nazis or any other fascist dictatorship 
  is just a diversion and a smear tactic. Bill. 
  www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion 
   informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are 
  unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 
  'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright 
  fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects 
  spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives 
  no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be 
  wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's 
  need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Re: [CTRL] Success!! Zionism Loses An Adherent! One At A Time...WE WILL WIN!

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Sounds like an 18 
year old who has discovered the world of conspiracyinformation and is 
rebelling against mommy and daddy. I hope she checks in five years from 
now when she starts to fill in the details from both sides. That 
sweetie is not on your side Shannon. She's still learning, and heaven help 
you when she learns how she has been taken for granted on the Jewish side and 
manipulated by your side.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Friday, August 29, 2003 9:22 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Success!! 
  Zionism Loses An Adherent! One At A Time...WE WILL 
  WIN!-Caveat Lector- http://www.rense.com/general40/awakens.htmAnother 
  Jew Of Good Heart AwakensFrom Barbara F8-29-03Jeff 
  Rense,  I just have to thank you for what you have helped me 
  understand. I was raised in a middle-class Jewish family in Queens, New York. 
  Whatever disagreements existed among my family and friends, there was no 
  debate on the importance of defending Israel.  It is through 
  your program that I have been able to get information that supports another 
  view than the one I was indoctrinated with in my youth.  I 
  realize that I have been brainwashed into accepting Zionism as my world view. 
  I feel truly liberated in being able to question all that I have been taught. 
   So much of what I have learned I can trace back to your 
  wonderful programs. You have led me through some of the most disturbing 
  information, but you always do it with such caring and humanity.  
  You are such a wonderful resource, I thank you for being there and I 
  want to wish you continued health and happiness,  Your friend, 
   Barbarawww.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER 
  == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Zionists Target Children's Author

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



I wouldn't 
suggest censorship. I would say there should be a book written from an 
Israeli child's view point showing how thePalestinian that you trust today 
will kill you tomorrow. It would show how the Israeli child is being 
taught moral values, being taug;ht not to hate individuals even as his friends 
and relatives are being killed.The Palestinian child, who is a 
supposed friend to the Israeli child is being taught to hate and kill. 
They would be playing together until the Palestinian child carried a bomb into 
the playground where they played together. It would all be true and based 
on real events. The books would have to be sold as a pair and sold in 
every country in the world, including the Muslim countries. Then you could 
have your headline read Children's Author Faces Muslim Wrath and the Children's 
Author would have to go into hiding. Zionist Wrath is very, very 
mild compared to Muslim Wrath. 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:09 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Zionists 
  Target Children's Author-Caveat Lector- http://www.rense.com/general40/author.htmChildren's 
  Author Faces Zionist WrathTale Of A Boy's Life In The West Bank 
  Prompts Calls For Withdrawal Of The BookBy Fiachra Gibbons 
  Arts CorrespondentThe Guardian - UK8-30-03Jewish 
  pressure groups are calling on a publisher to withdraw a children's book about 
  a Palestinian boy growing up amid the intifada on the West Bank.  
  A Little Piece of Ground, by the multi-award-winning author Elizabeth 
  Laird, is a fictional account of how a 12-year-old called Karim - whose 
  family's olive groves have been confiscated by settlers - copes when his 
  father is stripped and humiliated by Israeli troops.  As the boy 
  is swept up in the protest against the occupation, and his friends make a fake 
  bomb, he dreams of developing an "acid formula to dissolves the steel in 
  Israeli tanks".  Macmillan has received three demands for the 
  book to be pulped, and many bookshops are worried about stocking it, lest it 
  provoke further protests from Jewish groups. So far, most of the attacks on 
  Laird have come from North America, led by a chain of Canadian bookshops which 
  made the first "vitriolic" complaint to her publisher. It is understood that 
  others have come from Jewish pressure groups.  The New 
  Zealand-born novelist wrote her book after visiting Ramallah as part of a 
  British Council scheme to encourage writing for children. She denies the story 
  is anti-Israeli.  "I did expect comeback, but to say that any 
  criticism of Israel is anti-semitic is doing Israel a disservice. This is an 
  important story that should be told. It shows a child under military 
  occupation. It's terrible for the occupiers, and terrible for the occupied. I 
  hope I have shown how awful it is for the soldiers too," said Laird, who has 
  lived in Beirut and Iraq.  "There is already a great deal of 
  understanding of Israel. All western people have felt sympathetic to Israel, 
  for good reason often; and I don't think that should stop. The voice of the 
  Palestinian child, on the other hand, has not been heard."  
  Children's writer Ann Jungman, a member of the liberal Jews for 
  Justice in Palestine group, said that she admired the book but still found it 
  biased. "It's not what is in there that I object to. It's what has been left 
  out. There should have been a broader picture. All the Palestinians are 
  reasonable, and all the Israelis are monsters."  Laird, who has 
  won the Children's Book Award, the Smarties Prize and been nominated three 
  times for the Carnegie Medal, claimed A Little Piece of Ground was not meant 
  to explain politics. "It's true, lots of Israelis are trying to come to an 
  accommodation with the Palestinians, and many refuse to serve in the West 
  Bank. But the book is written through the eyes of a 12-year-old who just sees 
  men with guns. It would not have been true to my characters to do otherwise. 
   "The book is not so much about politics as about brothers, 
  friendship, falling in love and football."  The title comes from 
  a scrap of waste land that Karim and his friends turn into a football pitch 
  and which later becomes a flashpoint in the violence.  Laird 
  insisted that everything in the book was drawn from real events. "A lot of the 
  incidents have come from the main Israeli human rights website", while others 
  were taken from the experiences of her collaborator, Sonia Nimir, a lecturer 
  at Bir Zeit university on the West Bank.  Laird said she "toned 
  down" several parts of the book, but that the motivation for suicide bombing 
  had to be tackled. "Suicide bombings are going on in the background, and in 
  one scene I have Karim's uncle questioning his [Karim's] hunger for vengeance 
  

Re: [CTRL] Just the facts...

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Oh Shannon, you really should read a valuable book called How to Lie
With Statisics.  It's a classic.  Here is a response to one of the
statistics you posted.   Anyone looking at the organization source for
the article you posted should note that the sources are very leftist and
generally pro-Palestinian organizations. I've eliminated the graphic
charts which can be seen at the site and am sending this plain text.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440
June 20, 2002
Updated: May 21, 2003
The “al-Aqsa Intifada” – An Engineered Tragedy
Summary of Findings
Don Radlauer
ICT Associate
An ongoing study by the International Policy Institute for
Counter-Terrorism (ICT) at the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya
provides an in-depth look at the fatalities on both sides of the current
Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Based on thorough research using
Palestinian and Israeli open sources, the study provides a breakdown of
those killed by age, gender, and combatant status. The results lead to
some surprising conclusions.
Combatants, Noncombatants, and Responsibility
Almost 1900 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the
“al-Aqsa Intifada”, compared to almost 700 Israelis. Numbers like these
are used to create an image of lopsided slaughter, with Israel cast as
the villain. But such numbers distort the true picture: They lump
combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent
civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own
compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel.
More meaningful figures show that Israel is responsible for some 733
Palestinian noncombatant deaths, while Palestinians have killed 546
Israeli noncombatants. Over 54 percent of the Palestinians killed were
actively involved in fighting – and this does not include stone-throwers
or “unknowns”. And Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths
of at least 253 of their own number – more than one out of every eight
Palestinians killed.
On the Israeli side, 80 percent of those killed have been noncombatants.
While Israelis account for about 27 percent of the total “Intifada”
fatalities, they represent over 43 percent of the noncombatant victims.

Breakdown by Gender
Women and girls account for 31 percent of all Israelis killed in the
conflict, and almost 40 percent of the Israeli noncombatants killed by
Palestinians.
Palestinian fatalities, in contrast, have been consistently and
overwhelmingly (over 95 percent) male; even when combatants (almost all
of whom have been male) are removed from consideration, just 8 percent
of Palestinians killed by Israel have been female.

In absolute terms, even though more Palestinians than Israelis have been
killed overall, Israeli female fatalities have far outnumbered
Palestinian female fatalities. If we include all reliable reports of
women and girls killed in the conflict, the ratio is 219 Israeli females
compared to 92 Palestinian females – a ratio of almost 2.5 to 1. If we
restrict the comparison to noncombatant Israeli females killed by
Palestinians and noncombatant Palestinian females killed by Israel, the
difference is even more dramatic: 69 Palestinians compared to 214
Israelis, a ratio of three to one.

Breakdown by Age
Israeli combatant fatalities are concentrated in a narrow age range, as
we would expect for soldiers in a uniformed army. Israeli noncombatants,
in contrast, display a near-random age distribution. This is equally
unsurprising, given that these fatalities are the result of terrorist
attacks on accessible civilian targets.

Palestinian fatalities present a quite different picture. Palestinian
combatant fatalities, like those on the Israeli side, are concentrated
in a narrow age range – although this concentration is slightly less
pronounced. (This is unsurprising, given that Palestinian combatants are
mostly members of unofficial terrorist/guerilla organizations.)
Palestinian noncombatant fatalities, however, show an age distribution
completely unlike that on the Israeli side. Instead of a “sloppy”
distribution over a broad range of ages, Palestinian noncombatant
fatalities are heavily concentrated among teenagers and young adults.

“Mature” and Young Fatalities
A more specific focus on older and younger victims of the conflict
further highlights the difference between Palestinian and Israeli
noncombatant fatalities. When we compare the “mature” noncombatant
Israelis killed by Palestinians to the “mature” Palestinian
noncombatants killed by Israel, we see that the Israeli death toll far
exceeds the Palestinian. In fact, Palestinians have killed at least 174
noncombatant Israelis aged 45 and over, while Israelis have killed 65
Palestinian noncombatants in the same age bracket. The ratio is 2.7 to
1.

When we look at children and teenaged noncombatants killed in the
conflict, we see a rather strange pattern. Among both Palestinians and
Israelis, the number of young children (under the age of ten years old)

[CTRL] Hamas and International Law

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-





   
  
  
  On Hamas "Freedom Fighters": 
  The View From International Law
  20 August 2003
  


  
  Even now, even after repeated Hamas suicide-bomb attacks on Israeli 
buses, pizza restaurants, ice-cream parlors, kibbutz nurseries and 
preschools, some still argue passionately that the ends of barbaric 
Palestinian violence justify the means  that an end to the so-called 
Israeli "occupation" justifies premeditated murder of any and all 
Israelis. Leaving aside both ordinary ethical standards (by which this 
argument is manifestly indecent) and the uncontested fact that Israel 
came into inadvertent control of West Bank and Gaza in 1967 because of 
undisguised Arab aggression, the ends can never justify the means 
under authoritative international law. On the contrary, for more than 
two thousand years, binding legal rules of world politics have 
stipulated that intentional violence against the innocent is always 
repugnant and always prohibited. From the standpoint of international 
law, one man's terrorist can never be another man's freedom-fighter. 
This empty witticism, although now repeated ritually by various 
unschooled newspaper reporters and by smooth radio and television 
pundits seeking to appear clever, is jurisprudentially meaningless. It 
is true, to be sure, that certain insurgencies can indeed be judged 
lawful (a judgment without which the United States of America would 
never have been properly constituted), but even these permissible 
resorts to force must always conform to the laws of war. 
Wherever an insurgent group resorts to unjust means, its actions are 
unambiguously terroristic. The rules of war bind all 
belligerents,insurgents as well as states. It follows that even if Hamas 
claims of an Israeli "occupation" were correct rather than concocted, 
their corresponding claim of entitlement to oppose Israel "by any means 
necessary" would remain unsupportable. 
International law has determinable form and content. It cannot be 
invented and reinvented by terror groups merely to accommodate their own 
adversarial interests. This is especially the case where terror violence 
purposely targets infants, children and the elderly, the 
quintessentially characteristic targeting signature of Hamas and its 
many Palestinian cousins. 
There are fixed and precise standards that must be applied in 
judgment of all insurgent resorts to violence. These standards are known 
in law as just cause and just means. These standards, and 
these standards alone, allow us to distinguish lawful insurgency from 
terrorism. When they are applied to Hamas, the distinction is not 
difficult to make. According to the explicitly genocidal Charter of 
Hamas: "The time (salvation) will not come until Muslims will fight the 
Jews and kill them." This fight is against all Jews: "The Nazism 
of the Jews," says the Charter, "does not skip women and children" 
every Jew, therefore, is a proper target. 
Palestinian terrorists believe that they have just cause 
because they legally deserve a state; because there is under 
authoritative international law a general right of "peoples" to 
"self-determination." But the proposed Palestinian state of the Road Map 
is openly intended to be built upon the mutilated corpse of an existing 
state, the Jewish State of Israel. There are no two states in the 
Palestinian Final Solution. What is currently called Israel or "The 
Zionist Entity" is merely "occupied Palestine." Returning to the precise 
words of the Hamas Charter: "Israel will rise and will remain erect 
until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." 
On the very same day that he signed the Declaration of 
Principles in 1993, Yasser Arafat addressed the Palestinian people 
on Jordanian television. There he assured his listeners that Oslo I was 
nothing more than a codified implementation of the 1974 PLO "Plan of Phases," a 
10-point scheme for the incremental destruction of Israel. "The first 
stage," said Arafat, "is the establishment of a national authority on 
any part of Palestinian soil that is liberated or from which the 
Israelis withdraw." Exactly the same assertion was repeated by Chairman 
Arafat after the signing of Oslo II. 
Let us return to the other legal criterion of permissible armed 
force. National liberation movements that fail to meet the test of 
just means are never protected as lawful or legitimate. Even if 
we 

[CTRL]

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Blavatsky's Theosophy was 
antisemitic. It was the originating movement of Lucis Trust, and today it is 
still extremely active around the world. Like Lucis Trust, there are many 
group and individuals following this belief system. While I was unable to 
find the original article regarding David Irving on the net, there are many 
links to the debate which followed, quoting the original comments. The 
site itself has many, many articles dealing with esoteric history. 


http://sociologyesoscience.com/



  
  

  


  

  
  
   
  
  [HOME]

  


  

  
  

   

History on Trial: Editorial

Too often modernist post New Agers 
claim history doesnt matter, the die is already cast. 
However next this empty space is too easily filled with the 
most inaccurate assumptions as described in the introduction 
of this web site. 
Rather history can be defined as 
the product of the discovery and description of past events. 
The description can take the form of either narration or 
analysis, as long as ones methods of discovery are as 
scientifically rigorous as possible. Along with psychology, 
sociology, and anthropology, history adds to our 
understanding of human behavior by providing data of what 
people have actually done. Humans are storytelling beings and history is 
our story. Since history is an interaction of both 
contingencies and necessities, it involves the study of both 
unique one-time events and universal repetitive trends: 
times arrow and times cycle. 
For both, but especially the 
latter, the social sciences are an integral part to finding 
the repetitive signals in the background noise, and as such 
the study of history can benefit greatly from the social 
sciences. The problem is that sometimes historians are 
attempting to write about humans and their behavior without 
knowing the best science available on these difficult 
questions. To really understand history historians need to 
test their claims. Unfortunately historians never take any 
courses in hypothesis testing. 
Historians can still write great 
stories, but they must be, stories grounded in facts, not 
fiction; in science, not anecdotes. The historian can act as 
a psychologist and sociologist of the past by employing 
statistical and other scientific methodologies to estimate 
the probabilities of events, causes, and our confidence in 
them. 
This is well described in a 2002 
book by Richard Evans, who took as an example the analysis 
of the David Irving trial three years ago. In Telling Lies 
About Hitler he describes why History does matter he 
writes: Let us now move forward into the past with the best 
science available, so that the uncertainties of the 
historical boundaries will be made as clear as our faculties 
allow. 
For truth, the Guardian rightly 
said, cannot be assumed, but has to be worked at ... Even a 
casual reader of the case reports could quickly see how 
painstaking genuine historical scholarship is; it builds 
detail upon detail, avoiding casual inference and thin 
deduction It was truth established in this way over many 
years that had been vindicated. The trial demonstrated 
triumphantly the ability of historical scholarship to reach 
reasoned conclusions about the Nazi extermination of the 
Jews on the basis of a careful examination of the written 
evidence. It vindicated our capacity to know what happened 
after the survivors are no longer around to tell the tale. 
It showed that we can know, beyond reasonable doubt, even if 
explaining and understanding will always be a matter for 

Re: [CTRL] POWER OUTAGE TRACED TO DIM BULB IN WHITE HOUSE

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Posted here last 
Friday by Eric Hoffsten. 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Monday, August 18, 2003 9:44 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] POWER OUTAGE 
  TRACED TO DIM BULB IN WHITE HOUSE-Caveat Lector- http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=257row=0POWER 
  OUTAGE TRACED TO DIM BULB IN WHITE HOUSE --- The Tale of The 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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[CTRL] Conspiracy by New Agers against Christians and Jews

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




  
  Written by a 
friend:
  
  Where this gets interesting is the UN 
  has recently called for international restrictions on the practice of 
  religion, but only against those religions who will not alter their stance on 
  homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, and the inerrancy of Scripture. The 
  targets seem to be authentic (or Orthodox) Judaism, evangelical Protestantism 
  and to a far lesser degree, Catholicism. The assumption is that after a 
  perfunctory protest, the Roman Church will accede to the UN demands (and if 
  history is any guide, they will. The Roman church traditionally bows to power 
  in order to maintain its own.) However, the evangelicals and Jews are a 
  tougher nut to crack. This lead a UN spokesperson to say "there is a showdown 
  coming with religion". I have no doubt there is. 
  
  According to 
  several tracts we found, evangelicals are lumped with Jews for the purposes of 
  these occultically inspired anti-Semites. They base this on two points of 
  evidence. 1) Christians believe themselves grafted into Israel, those who 
  won't define a Christian identity outside of that world view, meaning the 
  Church either replacing Israel or the Church as independent of Israel are 
  "Jews in spirit" and equally "old age" and therefore an impediment to the 
  ascension of Mankind. 2) The Torah defines a righteous gentile as being a 
  co-inheritor of the promises of G-d in the world to come. Indeed our Sages 
  have always taught that a gentile whodutifully and 
  strenouslyupholds the Noahide Laws (of Basic Morality) not only have a 
  share in the World to Come but also can achieve a very high and holy spiritual 
  level, comparable to the great Tzaddikim (colloq. saints, lit. extremely 
  righteous ones)of Israel. On the basis of both these positions, the 
  occultists claim that the non-anti-Jewish (philo-semitic?) gentile is as great 
  a threat as an observant Jew.
  
  Ms. 
  Bailey goes on to say, any Jew who refuses to surrender his faith, his 
  heritage and his allegience to Torah is a threat and must either be 
  "re-educated" or eliminated from the body social. This is, essentially, Nazism 
  in a nutshell. Hitler placed a very high premium on the destruction of the 
  observant Jewish communities in Poland and Russia. When asked by Himmler why 
  he ignored the Jews of Western Europe for so long, Hitler answered "If we 
  don't kill them, they will still disappear in short order, the Eastern Jew is 
  the greater threat".
  
  The murderous 
  hostility towards Christians is no less pronounced. The UN has studiously 
  ignored the massacre of Christians in Sudan by the Islamist government there. 
  Bush has even removed Sudan from the State Dept. terror list, this despite the 
  fact that over 2,000,000 Christians have been murdered there in the past 10 
  years and another 3,000,000 have been enslaved, raped or tortured. The 
  Palestinian Authority continues its organized persecution of Christians. Of 
  the over 100 churches in Nazereth, only 1 remains open. Of the over 100 
  churches in Bethlehem, none have remained undesecrated and only the Church of 
  the Nativity remains open. Prior to Arafat's takeover, about 15% of the 
  population of Judea was Christian, today that number is closer to 2%. Lebanon 
  once enjoyed a Christian majority, today, driven out by the Syrians, less than 
  10% of Lebanon's population is Christian. Nevertheless, the US and UN continue 
  to support the PA, Syria and the Saudi regime which is the primary funding 
  source for this violence against Christians. In Kosovo, under NATO protection, 
  Islamic guerillas terrorize the Orthodox Christian Kosovar majority and have 
  destroyed hundreds of churches, some over 1000 years old. Synagouges that 
  predate Islam have also been looted and burned. Not a word out of the EU, the 
  US or the UN...
  
  The UN aided 
  and abetted Hizb'Allah's kidnap and murder of Israeli soldiers, refusing to 
  even allow Israel to see the tapes the UN made of the atrocities. The UN turns 
  a blind eye towards Nigerian, Sudanese, Pakistani and Indonesian persecution 
  of the Christian minorities in those nations as well, aiding and abetting the 
  Islamic states that carry out these crimes. Allegedly Christian Europe seeks 
  to reward the Islamic murderers in the hopes of gaining new markets. Aborting 
  the native European population into extinction, they import Islamic workers 
  and within a generation it is likely that France, Belgium, Germany, the 
  Netherlands and Italy will all have Islamic majorities. 
  
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major 

Re: [CTRL] Conspiracy by New Agers against Christians and Jews

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-





The difference is I'm not promoting Lucis Trust material as 
valid.I'm warning people about it.Being better written, 
it has more staying power than the Freedman rant will ever have.In 
addition, they are geared to different audiences. Anyone at the UN who 
took the Freedman piece seriously would be sent back to wash dishes in their 
home country, but Lucis Trust was located in the UNPlaza in a building 
that housed embassies. However I can see why you don't run with the more 
complex group of antisemites. You should ask your controller why they 
don't move you up.

Alice Bailey  Djwhal Khul - Esoteric Philosophy - 
Master Index - ... ... 
Cosmic Fire, first published in 1925, was the third book jointly Fire 
... Glamour withcertain esoteric teaching were first published by 
Alice A. Bailey, with the ... www.netnews.org/bkindex/c1046/f1496.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages 


-Original 
Message-From: Conspiracy Theory Research List 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William 
ShannonSent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:29 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Conspiracy by New Agers 
against Christians and Jews
-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 8/18/2003 10:15:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Ms. Bailey goes on to say, any Jew 
who refuses to surrender his faith, his heritage and his allegience to Torah 
is a threat and must either be "re-educated" or eliminated from the body 
social.This wouldn't be Alice Bailey who died in 1949, would 
  it?I mean you were all over me for posting a Benjamin Freedman 
  speech he gave in what, 1961?So I assume this Bailey character whose full 
  name we're supposed to guess at in your pal's poorly penned screed, is someone 
  else. Right?Bill. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  
  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: The Case for World's 5th Largest Economy Seceding from the Union

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Isn't going to happen, but it does remind me of 
Callenbach's book Ecotopia, the Turner Diaries or maybe even the Celestine 
Prophecy. California knows if it separated, it would have to go to war 
with Mexico who would want it back into their fold. Oh 
well

From Leach's review of the book on Amazon.com.: 
 "Ecotopia is a country made up of the 
states of Washington, Oregon, and a big chunk of California. After a period of 
political and economic turmoil, these states seceded from the United States 
circa 1980. They were able to do this because economic conditions in the United 
States were so bad (apparently Callenbach assumed the problems of the 1970's 
would continue to spiral us downwards) that the government could not mount an 
effective civil war to bring the states back into the 
fold."

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 1:01 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Fwd: The Case 
  for "World's 5th Largest Economy" Seceding from the 
  Union-Caveat Lector- www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == 
  CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing 
  propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! 
  These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, 
  mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups 
  with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and 
  thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, 
  and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no 
  credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
  [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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  CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Benjamin Freedman's Amazing Warnings

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-





  
  
Benjamin Freedman 
"Neo-Nazi" 
Financier Unknown to the general 
  public, Freedman, an heir to the Beechnut food-chain fortune, financed the 
  neo-Nazi publications of Conde McGinley, a New Jersey editor known as the 
  leading "anti-Semite" of his day. Freedman's bankrolling was not brought 
  to light until after McGinley's death, but it set the pace for subsequent 
  underwriting and control of "neo-Nazi" artifices by Jewish 
  organizations

  
  Didn't Freedman give this speech 42 years ago. How up to 
  date is your material Shannon? My guesswas that Freedman was 
  alsoinvestigating the upper levels of some other organizations at the 
  time, the remnants of the Nazis who had scatteredfrom Germany after the 
  war was lost. 
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: Conspiracy Theory Research List 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William 
  ShannonSent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 3:04 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Benjamin Freedman's Amazing 
  Warnings-Caveat Lector- http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/benjamin.htmThe 
  Amazing Warnings Of Benjamin FreedmanFrom Bible 
  Believers.org.au2-17-3What do we face now? If we trigger a world 
  war that may develop into a nuclear war, humanity is finished. Why might such 
  a war take place? It will take place as the curtain goes up on Act 3: Act 1 
  was World War I, Act 2 was World War II, Act 3 is going to be World War III. 
  The Jews of the world, the Zionists and their co-religionists everywhere, are 
  determined that they are going to again use the United States to help them 
  permanently retain Palestine as their foothold for their world government. 
  That is just as true as I am standing here. Not alone have I read it, but many 
  here have also read it, and it is known all over the world.   
  A Jewish Defector Warns America  Introductory Note  
  Benjamin H. Freedman was one of the most intriguing and amazing 
  individuals of the 20th century. Born in 1890, he was a successful Jewish 
  businessman of New York City at one time principal owner of the Woodbury Soap 
  Company. He broke with organized Jewry after the Judeo-Communist victory of 
  1945, and spent the remainder of his life and the great preponderance of his 
  considerable fortune, at least 2.5 million dollars, exposing the Jewish 
  tyranny which has enveloped the United States.  Mr. Freedman 
  knew what he was talking about because he had been an insider at the highest 
  levels of Jewish organizations and Jewish machinations to gain power over our 
  nation. Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel 
  Untermyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, John F. 
  Kennedy, and many more movers and shakers of our times.  This 
  speech was given before a patriotic audience in 1961 at the Willard Hotel, 
  Washington, D.C., on behalf of Conde McGinley's patriotic newspaper of that 
  time, Common Sense. Though in some minor ways this wide-ranging and 
  extemporaneous speech has become dated, Mr. Freedman's essential message to us 
  -- his warning to the West -- is more urgent than ever before. -- K.A.S. 
   Benjamin Freedman Speaks:  Here in the United 
  States, the Zionists and their co-religionists have complete control of our 
  government. For many reasons, too many and too complex to go into here at this 
  time, the Zionists and their co-religionists rule these United States as 
  though they were the absolute monarchs of this country. Now you may say that 
  is a very broad statement, but let me show you what happened while we were all 
  asleep.  What happened? World War I broke out in the summer of 
  1914. There are few people here my age who remember that. Now that war was 
  waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side 
  by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.  Within two years 
  Germany had won that war: not only won it nominally, but won it actually. The 
  German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the 
  convoys from the Atlantic Ocean. Great Britain stood there without ammunition 
  for her soldiers, with one week's food supply -- and after that, starvation. 
  At that time, the French army had mutinied. They had lost 600,000 of the 
  flower of French youth in the defense of Verdun on the Somme. The Russian army 
  was defecting, they were picking up their toys and going home, they didn't 
  want to play war anymore, they didn't like the Czar. And the Italian army had 
  collapsed.  Not a shot had been fired on German soil. Not one 
  enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany. And yet, Germany was 
  offering England peace terms. They offered England a negotiated peace on what 
  the lawyers call a status quo ante basis. That means: "Let's call the war off, 
  and let everything be as it was before the war started." England, in the 
  summer of 1916 was 

Re: [CTRL] Benjamin Freedman's Amazing Warnings

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



That 
audience wantedacartoon version of history and they got it. 
They were comfortable with it.He used their language. He told 
them what they wanted to hear, what they had been telling each other over the 
years. Anyone with any historical maturity would have spit on the stage 
and walked out, knowing they were being conned. I can only hope that he 
gained enough information over the years to help stop some of the evil 
that continues to grow to this day. I'm spitting on your stage 
Shannon.



-Original Message-From: 
Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
William ShannonSent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 4:02 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Benjamin 
Freedman's Amazing Warnings
-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 8/17/2003 3:48:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Didn't Freedman give this speech 42 
years ago. How up to date is your material Shannon? My guess was 
that Freedman was also investigating the upper levels of some other 
organizations at the time, the remnants of the Nazis who had scattered from 
Germany after the war was lost. It's old and yet it's amazingly relevant to these 
  times too.Got a problem with that "Zuukie?"Bill. 
  www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion 
   informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are 
  unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 
  'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright 
  fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects 
  spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives 
  no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be 
  wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's 
  need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
  [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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  CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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A HREF=""ctrl/A

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Om

[CTRL] Just a note

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



As 
this is the only board I've been posting to, it's interesting to note that I've 
been placed on an Islamic list. Ok folks, whoever you are, I'm willing to 
read other sides of the controversy, but I must delete anything you send me in 
Arabic as I don't read that language. If anyone else wants to get 
that mail, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I'm one of the 
many whose email addresses begin with Z it seems.. It's a wonderful 
example of how liberals, conservatives, Jews, Islamists, pagans work at getting 
their message out and don't just sit back and complain about what others are 
doing to them. While I'm very critical at reading their messages, I'm 
critical about all messages. 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

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Re: [CTRL] Anti-Gay Hate Messages -was- WARNING: U.N. Group in 'showdown' with religion

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

If you take community institutions and relationships, family,
acquaintances, friends, children, the schools, etc. out of the picture
you might be right.  If those two consenting adults find a box somewhere
in the outback and stay in it forever and ever, you might be right.
Tell me, how is it that we are to believe that everything is connected
in the environment and society but that sexual activity affects no one
but the two people who are doing it.

You write:
Sexual activity
-- the sharing of mutual pleasure -- is in fact beneficial: it often
brings people closer together, and it discharges energy that otherwise
might lead to frustration and anger.
Are you suggesting free public brothels might bring an end to
frustration and anger in the world? How interesting.

You write:  Do not harm anyone.  Do you tell them:  I didn't harm you
so shut up.!  Fascinating.  Does this mean that you will determine if
another is to feel hurt, anger or frustration.?  Talk about emotional
control and allowing others to determine their own feelings!

How tolerant and broadminded of you to recognize that your views are
those of the new elite  and that us who disagree with you can discard
thousands of years of discussion on the same topic because, grand guy
that you are, have discovered what the cavemen liked to do prior to the
coming of civilization.







-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark S Bilk
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 4:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] Anti-Gay Hate Messages -was- WARNING: U.N. Group in
'showdown' with religion


-Caveat Lector-

Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911

In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; from
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 08:18:00AM -0600

Homosexuality -- in fact, any sexual activity between consenting adults
-- does not harm anyone (as long as the participants avoid unwanted
pregnancy and transmission of disease).  Sexual activity
-- the sharing of mutual pleasure -- is in fact beneficial: it often
brings people closer together, and it discharges energy that otherwise
might lead to frustration and anger.

The purpose of moral rules is to minimize harm to people, so that all
may live happily and successfully.  Therefore the only basis of morality
that makes any sense is, Do not harm anyone.

By this sane pro-human standard, homosexuality and homosexual people are
not immoral (as such) in any way.

The only reason some people believe they are immoral is the influence of
fundamentalist Judaeo-Christian religions.  These religions are in many
ways profoundly anti-human; their leaders and holy books have
variously advocated and praised the genocide of many millions of people,
as well as the murder of women who have sex before marriage, the murder
of adherents of other religions, and the practice of genital mutilation.

HIV/AIDS was spread in African nations, and in the male homosexual
population in the U.S., by vaccines that were contaminated with the
virus (probably intentionally).  That is an appropriate topic of
discussion for this list.  The spewing of murderous hatred against
harmless people, as motivated by fundamentalist religion, is not.

On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 08:18:00AM -0600, Ctrl wrote:
-Caveat Lector-

I can't believe that whining sniveling jizz gobbler (Svend Robinson)
has been the incumbent politician for as long as he has.  For as long
as I can remember, he's done nothing but slap decent moral Canadians
across the face time and time again.

While I wish the man no ill, I must admit I'd be pleased to learn he's
dying of AIDS.

- Original Message -
From: William Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 1:06 PM
Subject: [CTRL] {attack} WARNING signs of the times: U.N. Group in
'showdown' with religion (fwd)

 -- Forwarded message --
 Date: Fri,  8 Aug 2003 17:01:37 +
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: {attack} WARNING signs of the times:  U.N. Group in
'showdown'
 with religion

 YOU CAN ALSO READ IT ON THE WEB.
 http://www.topica.com/lists/USAttacked/read

  \/   \/   \/   \/   \/   \/   \/   \/

 Subj: U.N. group in 'showdown with religion'
 Date: 8/7/03 11:51:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent from the Internet (Details)

 U.N. group in 'showdown with religion'
 Gathered homosexual leaders to sharpen 'rights' strategy worldwide

 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33984

 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

   Buoyed by growing political acceptance of homosexuals worldwide, a
 United Nations group promoting gay and lesbian rights met in New
 York

 to sharpen a multi-pronged strategy that includes a showdown with
 religion.

 The meeting was sponsored by the U.N. Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual
 Employees, known as UNGLOBE, a group officially recognized by the
 worldwide body in 1996.

Re: [CTRL] Catholic Hitler With Nazi Photos!

[Zuukie]

 applied in all civilized 
  countries. "Indeed," he noted, "it would contravene Gods plan," 
  which requires the preservation of Israel, even though 
  it is dispersed, as a "concrete argument for the truth of 
  Christianity." [Emphasis added.] Few statements could have been contrived 
  to inflame Hitlers messianic passion and determination any more than 
  that.
  After some of the truth 
  of what Nazi Germany had done was disclosed, some 15 years after the events, 
  Pope John XXIII was aghast at what had been done to the Jews in the name of 
  God and Jesus. He wrote anentreaty and addressed it to the Christian 
  world:
  "The mark of Cain is stamped upon our 
  foreheads. Across the centuries, our brother Abel has lain in blood which we 
  drew, and shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love. Forgive us, Lord, for 
  the curse we falsely attributed to their name as Jews."
  Those who did rescue the mass murderers from the 
  hand of justice were not solely the likes of Peron and his secret police but 
  the Roman Catholic church and its emissaries. 
  It was the Roman Catholic church which, through 
  its priests, churches, monasteries and forged Vatican passports, managed to 
  foil the post-war hunt for Nazi criminals. 
  Consider that in an 
  allegedlymodern, scientific, intelligent society the irrational and 
  obsequious actafront (a likely homosexual or paedophile) 
  malecleric acting the part of a magician whomiraculously 
  transforms wine and a potato chip wafer into the "real blood andreal 
  flesh" of a 2,000 year dead man and then has folks communally engage ina 
  ritual act of deistic cannibalism.
  It's unhelpful to the cause of truth to 
  cover-up this institution and its clerics adoption and promulgation of Hitler 
  and the Nazi movement by deflecting nonsensical blame upon New Age-ism which 
  at best is a disorganised milieu of esoteric thought rather than 
  ahierarchical and political power structure like the Vatican with agents 
  loyal to the pope and a foreign State (i.e. Vatican City) in every sector of 
  our society - Religious, Military, Corporate and the Intelligence Services. 
  
  
  Zuukie's deflection of the Vatican's 
  involvement is essentially identical to the 1998 obfuscation employed by 
  thecurrent popeemployed to misdirect attention from the Vatican's 
  Nazi collaboration and support, towards blame on someethereal and 
  abstract pagan occultism, "The Shoah was the work of a thoroughly 
  modern neo-pagan regime" claimed the Roman pontiff. The term 
  "neo-pagan" isof course another idiom employed by various religious 
  fundamentalists for the now quite pass New Age movement. 
  
  A more credible statement of theVatican's 
  role was made in 1939 by Roberto Farinacci, a member of Mussolini's Fascist 
  Grand Council, whilegloating with an air of Fascist triumphal-ism in 
  "The Church and the Jews": 
  
  "We fascist Catholics consider the Jewish 
  problem from a strictly political point of view... But it comforts our 
  souls to know that if, as Catholics, we became anti-Semites, we owe it to the 
  teachings that the Church has promulgated over the past twenty 
  centuries."
  Dave.
  
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Zuukie 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 1:59 
PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Catholic Hitler 
With Nazi Photos!
-Caveat 
Lector- 

I can only refer others to 
the book The New Anti-Catholicism, the last acceptable prejudice" 
May 2003. The New Agers have said they would turn 
monotheists against each other and destroy all sides of monotheismthe 
easy way. I would suggest that more effort is needed to expose the New 
Age agenda which is Nazism in action now. Sutherland, why not 
try to present the entire picture of what Catholics faced under the Nazis, 
what suckered some of them in and what caused others to confront them. 
It might help those who are dealing with New Agers now.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  David SutherlandSent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:18 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Catholic 
  Hitler With Nazi Photos!-Caveat Lector- 
  
  

  Nazi photos
  
  


  
  
Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in 
Berlin
On April 20, 1939, Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The 
celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a 
tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send 
"warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops 
and the dioceses in Germany with "fervent prayers which the 
Catholic

Re: [CTRL] Anti-Gay Hate Messages -was- WARNING: U.N. Group in 'showd...

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

The site you refered us to says:
Human evolution is a puzzle made up of thousands of fossil pieces, and
the Chart of Human Evolution (below) shows the major pieces of that
puzzle arranged in a likely solution.

OK.. The site is honest and you are supposing that likely means
concrete proof.  OK.  How many honest sites do we have to look at to to
show your bias?

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nessie SFBG
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Anti-Gay Hate Messages -was- WARNING: U.N. Group in
'showd...


-Caveat Lector-

There is no fossil record to show that.

Oh yes there is.

See:

http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/homofs.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/




You are dissembling.

You are deluded.

Your irrational, a priori assumptions blind you to the evidence.
Convicts are routinely executed on the basis of less evidence than we
have for evolution. The Bible, the Koran, the Rig Veda, etc. are all
hearsay. The fossils are empirical data. If you rely on hearsay, when
the empirical data contradicts, your logic is flawed.

For more about logic, click here:

http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/longview/ctac/corenotes.htm

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These
are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups
with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of
posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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Om

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] U.N. Group in 'showdown' with religion (Bacon)

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

In 1982 a book titled The Homosexual Network, Private Lives and Public
Policy, by Enrique T. Rueda came out.  Rueda was a Catholic priest.  The
680 page book is packed with organizational names, individual names,
links, etc.  A 114 page chapter titled  Religious Organizations and the
Movement documented the links between religious groups and the
homosexual network.  It's a very slippery slope between trying to hold
the line on beliefs and full toleration of everything in the homosexual
movement on the philosophical level.  At what point does tolerance
become acceptance?  Homosexuals quietly reaching points of power in the
organization invited others to join the priesthood, and invited others
to participate in debauched patterns of behavior. This seems to be how
it occurred, until many seminaries became hotbeds of homosexual
activity.  Malachi Martin's books show the various belief patterns in
the church,  many of them openly defying the the religious beliefs
professed by what were mainline Catholic believers.  Windswept House by
Martin made it very clear that the Pope's words were openly subverted by
Cardinals under him who believed that the financial solvency of the
organization and it's place in the world market were very dependent on
the organization accepting activities that were totally out of step with
the basic beliefs of Catholicism.  The Catholic Church has been
infiltrated by New Age believers, as have been other religious groups.
There is no lockstep in the Catholic organization anymore, and the
secrecy of the organization has allowed many strange growths in the
church body.   It's hard for parish Catholics to take a stand on what is
moral and what isn't, so too many settle for mushy spirituality and
community activism as a substitute.  Expecting Catholics or any other
group as a whole  to take moral stands on anything for the good of the
community is a useless hope.  Just as it happened in Nazi Germany.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lyn Milnes
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 1:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] U.N. Group in 'showdown' with religion (Bacon)


-Caveat Lector-

I am puzzled about how the Roman Catholic Church can speak out as though
opposing gays, when 10% of its own priests are leading active gay lives.

The 10% figure comes from married ex-priest and university lecturer in
psychiatry W. Richard Sipe, who is a sexual counsellor of catholic
priests.


His books say 10% of priests are gay, 30% of priests are leading lives
of heterosexual relationships, and 6% are sexually oriented towards
children.

Is the Pope's real objection to gay marriage that it might put extra
pressure on the church to let all priests marry, which would mean they
have to pay priests salaries?  This might send the church bankrupt.

In the USA alone, if all RC priests had to be paid a salary of $35,000 a
year, a minimum so they could marry and support a family, this would
cost the Roman Catholic church $1.57 billion a year.

LLM




 Subj: U.N. group in 'showdown with religion'
 Date: 8/7/03 11:51:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent from the Internet (Details)



 U.N. group in 'showdown with religion'
 Gathered homosexual leaders to sharpen 'rights' strategy worldwide

 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33984

 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

   Buoyed by growing political acceptance of homosexuals worldwide, a
 United Nations group promoting gay and lesbian rights met in New
 York

 to sharpen a multi-pronged strategy that includes a showdown with
 religion.

 The meeting was sponsored by the U.N. Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual
 Employees, known as UNGLOBE, a group officially recognized by the
 worldwide body in 1996.

 At a forum Monday, attended briefly by U.N. Secretary General Kofi
 Annan, panel members singled out Roman Catholics and evangelical
 Protestants as opponents, according to the New York-based Catholic
 Family and Human Rights Institute.

 Speakers included U.S. Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., who urged Congress
 to withhold support for a free trade agreement with Muslim-majority
 Egypt because of its treatment of homosexuals.

 Paula Ettelbrick, executive director of the San Francisco-based
 International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, or IGLHRC,
 announced a coming showdown with religion and vowed Pope John Paul
 II's call to arms against homosexual marriage would be successfully
 combated.

 Another panel member, Princeton University professor Anthony Appiah,
 wondered whether or not religion should be limited, as it poses a
 challenge to the homosexual agenda.

 To thunderous applause, Svend Robinson, a member of the Canadian
 parliament, told the Catholic Church to clean up your own house
 before criticizing the morality of homosexuals.

 Robinson criticized Roman Catholic Bishop Frederick Henry of Calgary,
 calling his 

Re: [CTRL] Anti-Gay Hate Messages

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



June, my goodness, just how 
does one separate out those laws you think are based on superstition? Do 
we just see which laws you like and call the rest off as based on 
superstition? If it's a basis for civilized society but is mentioned in a 
religious text are we supposed to discard it based on what you consider 
contamination of source? Do we each follow our own laws or do welet 
some sort of leader make the decision? Are their certain superstitions 
which are acceptable? And just how do you define a superstition? Do 
expand on your ideas otherwise they look like third grade name calling. 


  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  RevCOALSent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:36 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Anti-Gay Hate 
  Messages-Caveat Lector- 
  
  

  


It is also written in the bible that women are 
unclean and should cover their heads.

Not to mention that the Old Testament condems 
masturbation as vehemently as homosexuality, and the same passage from 
the New Testament (Romans) that the homophobes like to quote 
alsomentions thieves and liars -- one wonders why the homophobes 
aren't getting their panties in a knot over masturbators, thieves, and 
liars as they do over homosexuals?


However, these are words of men. Everything in the 
Bible cannot be taken literally.

Hear! Hear!

Even *if* the Bible originally WAS 'the infallible 
word of God', one can't ignore the fact that it's gone thru numerous 
translations by fallable men; even the writers of the King James Bible 
put a caveat in their forward to that Bible stating that 
fact.

The bottom line is, the homophobic community has a 
perfect right to practice whatever flavor of superstition it wishes, but 
they do NOT have the right to impose their superstitious agenda upon the 
rest of society...


June

  

  
  


 
  IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER 
  == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
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  HREF=""ctrl/A 
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  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
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  Om Click 
Here
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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IMSTP.gif
Description: unknown/unknown

[CTRL] Utopian ideas

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Utopian ideas, secular or religious (Christian, Islamic, Jewish, New
Age)  may be intellectually interesting, but when adopted by those who
want to take those views and impose them on others without discussion,
there is a real problem.  It's hard to tell the difference between
utopian and evil power hungry leaders without talk between followers on
both sides of the controversy. That's always been a weakness of human
systems.  We continuously let others speak for us.

Those charismatic, intellectually pompus leaders want to avoid contact
between sides and will do everything in their power to avoid discussion
on a larger scale. Pagan New Age leaders have said they will turn
monotheistic populations against each other to destroy all monotheism
followers.  They are succeeding.  Isn't it time to analyze what New
Agers believe?  Isn't it time to recognize there is a New Age religion
complete with leadership?

From Hank's site:http://pnews.org/
(Hank, a secular Jew, doesn't quite understand the political role of New
Age yet. He makes some very interesting points that need to be
discussed.)

DO JEW HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE ANYWHERE?
The countries forming the composition of the UN have always rejected the
idea of a
completely Jewish Jerusalem.

The representative of Bangladesh said that the hope generated by the
signing of the Wye River Agreement had been marred by the murky
settlement policy of Israeli settlement in the occupied territories,
which had always been a source of tension. Instead of freezing
settlement activities, Israel had gone ahead with the building of a
new settlement at Jabal Abu-Ghneim. Completion of that settlement
would fully encircle East Jerusalem with settlement chains and
eventually significantly affect the demography of the city, by
creating a further Jewish majority. [PressWire - Decolonization
Committee told UN: Israel's settlement policy major obstacle to Middle
East peace (11-19-1998)]

Malaysia's representative said Israel had continued to establish new
settlements while expanding existing ones. Those settlements were
clearly aimed at effectively altering the demographic character of
certain areas in the occupied territories in favour of the Jewish
population, particularly in East Jerusalem. Furthermore, such
activities represented a clear attempt to prejudge or pre-empt issues
reserved for permanent status negotiations. The statement by the
Israeli Prime Minister on 12 November 1998 regarding the establishment
of a new Jewish settlement at Jabal Abu-Ghneim, which raised questions
about Israel's sincerity, was unacceptable. [PressWire - 98]

The representative of Egypt said his country was deeply concerned and
disturbed by the Israeli Government's invitation for international
construction bids in Jabal Abu-Ghneim to the south of East Jerusalem.
The policy of Israeli settlement was at the forefront of practices
that posed a clear and real threat to the future of the peace process.
The implementation of the 21 June decision to extend the municipal
boundaries of the city of Jerusalem to include Israeli settlements
could change the demographic structure of Jerusalem to the detriment
of its Palestinian populace. [PressWire - 98]

The UN claims that Israel's settlement policy is a major obstacle to
Middle East peace, yet from 1949 to 1967 Jews were not allowed to live
on the West Bank when it was occupied by Jordan after Israel's War of
Independence and it was never declared an obstacle to peace. There were
no Jews in the territories then and Arabs would not make peace with
Israel but would not do so.

After the war of 1967 when Israel took control of the West Bank some
settlements were established for security purposes. The Arabs still
would not make peace with Israel - but not because of the settlements.
It was because they rejected a Jewish state anywhere. When Sadat agreed
to recognize Israel and sign a peace accord in 1977 there were
settlements on the West Bank and in the Sinai and Israel gave up the
settlements in the Sinai as part of the peace accord. Israel has said it
would also negotiate settlements on the West Bank if Arabs agreed to a
peace accord with Israel. Israel has agreed to give up most of the
settlements for a dependable peace with Arabs living on the West Bank
(Judea and Samaria) and in Gaza. These concessions were offered at Oslo
and rejected by Arafat. Even when Israel stopped building settlements
Arabs did not offer any concessions to Israel.

If Arabs do not even recognize the existence of other minorities in the
Middle East and have continuously declared their refusal to recognize
Israel why should anyone expect them to change that position? Arabs do
not respect weakness.

..Arab governments do not recognize the existence of the Coptic people
in Egypt, the Kurdish and the Assyrian peoples in Iraq, the Berber
identity in Algeria, the African ethnicity of sourthern Sudan, or the
Leganese Christians. Moreover the native Christian ethnicities are 

[CTRL] More from Lee Penn

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



My comments: 

The first part of this piece is 
about the labyrinth which may not be of interest if you haven't seen this 
push. I characterize the labyrinth as walking around in circles while 
change is taking place. Others see it as spiritual. The last part 
deals with beliefs that religious leadership on many sides is accepting as being 
authentic spirituality. One can get very involved in "spirituality" which 
ignores day to day morality while allowing its' followers to feel "spiritually" superior 
and connected with a larger community. Morality deals with how we treat 
others."Spirituality" can bean individual person's 
ego-centeredcomfort. This message goes out to a small number of 
members of various religious groups. Ask yourselves where your leadership 
stands with regard to morality, how you treat others outside of your 
group. Every person on this earth is one of God's creations, no matter 
where they stand at any point in their lives. Treat them as such. 
Jews and Christians, I implore you to fight spiritual views if you are so 
inclined whileacting under the "Thou shalt not... " commandments yourself 
and challengingothers to follow the same. While we, small in number 
as we are may not be able to influence the future, at least we will be able to 
live with ourselves.
=
From Lee 
Penn

Please forward this as widely as possible (or, you may post it 
on your web site), without making any changes to the Christian Challenge 
story in this e-mail. It provides an overview of the the growth of New Age 
spiritual movements in the Episcopal Chuch in the US (ECUSA), and shows bishops' 
support for these movements.Lee 
Penn

STRANGE "DIVERSITIES"
(Or, The Episcopal Church Welcomes You)
By Lee Penn
The Christian Challenge
August 1, 2003

STRANGE NEW FORMS OF SPIRITUALITY have gained a foothold 
within the Episcopal 
Church in the United States (ECUSA) - the Labyrinth-walking 
fad, the weird 
eclectic spirituality practiced at the Cathedral of St. John 
the Divine in New 
York City, and the "Creation Spirituality" promoted by Matthew 
Fox, the 
renegade Dominican whom California Bishop William Swing 
received as an Episcopal 
priest in 1994.

All these new movements have set up shop in ECUSA with little 
organized 
resistance, and with the open support of members of the ECUSA 
hierarchy. The 
leaders of these spiritual ventures all support Bishop Swing's 
controversial United 
Religions Initiative (URI). ECUSA's theological troubles, in 
other words, 
extend well beyond the sexual issues that are grabbing today's 
headlines.
At the Episcopal General Convention now underway in 
Minneapolis, today's 
"Morning of Prayer" included several ways to reflect on 
"reconciliation," 
including "an outdoor labyrinth." 

But Bishop Swing's Grace Cathedral is the center of the 
modern-day 
Labyrinth-walking fad that has spread through New Age 
workshops, mainline Protestant 
churches, and Roman Catholic retreat centers and convents. The 
leader of this 
movement is Lauren Artress, an Episcopal priest who runs 
Veriditas - also known 
as the Labyrinth Project.

Artress, Canon for Special Ministries at Grace Cathedral, says 
that she first 
encountered the Labyrinth in January 1991, when she decided to 
"return to a 
Mystery School seminar with Dr. Jean Houston, an 
internationally known 
psychologist, author, and scholar whom I studied with in 
1985." (In the 1990s, 
Houston was best known to the public as the guru who helped 
Hillary Clinton contact 
the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt.) 

Artress says, "as soon as I set foot into the labyrinth I was 
overcome with 
an almost violent anxiety"; the next morning, she "awoke, 
distressed from a 
dream of having a heart attack." Nevertheless, she has devoted 
herself since then 
to spreading the labyrinth walk as a "spiritual tool" for all 
faiths. 
Labyrinths were built into some medieval Cathedrals in Western 
Europe before 
1500, but no documentation survives to show how - or whether - 
Catholics used 
labyrinths as part of their public liturgies or private 
devotions. After 
1500, most labyrinths were removed from cathedral floors; the 
Chartres labyrinth 
is one of the few that has survived from the Middle Ages to 
the present day. It 
went unused - and was usually covered with chairs for 
worshippers - until 
Artress began taking pilgrims to Chartres in the 
1990s.

Those who resurrect the labyrinth now are making up a new 
religious tradition 
in ancient costume, as the Neopagans have done since World War 
II and as the 
Freemasons did after 1717.

The labyrinth movement has long been intertwined with the URI. 
Barbara 
Hartford, a URI staff member in San Francisco, accompanied 
Artress on her first 
visit to the Chartres labyrinth in the early 1990s. 

[CTRL] More from Lee Penn

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




The first part of this piece is 
about the labyrinth which may not be of interest if you haven't seen this 
push. I characterize the labyrinth as walking around in circles while 
change is taking place. Others see it as spiritual. The last part 
deals with beliefs that religious leadership on many sides is accepting as being 
authentic spirituality. One can get very involved in "spirituality" which 
ignores day to day morality while allowing its' followers to feel "spiritually" superior and connected 
with a larger community. Morality deals with how we treatothers."Spirituality" can be a way to divert others from learning what 
is happening in politics, allowing the development of one-world government, one 
world religion, New Age style.
=
From Lee 
Penn

Please forward this as widely as possible (or, you may post it 
on your web site), without making any changes to the Christian Challenge 
story in this e-mail. It provides an overview of the the growth of New Age 
spiritual movements in the Episcopal Chuch in the US (ECUSA), and shows bishops' 
support for these movements.Lee 
Penn

STRANGE "DIVERSITIES"
(Or, The Episcopal Church Welcomes You)
By Lee Penn
The Christian Challenge
August 1, 2003

STRANGE NEW FORMS OF SPIRITUALITY have gained a foothold 
within the Episcopal 
Church in the United States (ECUSA) - the Labyrinth-walking 
fad, the weird 
eclectic spirituality practiced at the Cathedral of St. John 
the Divine in New 
York City, and the "Creation Spirituality" promoted by Matthew 
Fox, the 
renegade Dominican whom California Bishop William Swing 
received as an Episcopal 
priest in 1994.

All these new movements have set up shop in ECUSA with little 
organized 
resistance, and with the open support of members of the ECUSA 
hierarchy. The 
leaders of these spiritual ventures all support Bishop Swing's 
controversial United 
Religions Initiative (URI). ECUSA's theological troubles, in 
other words, 
extend well beyond the sexual issues that are grabbing today's 
headlines.
At the Episcopal General Convention now underway in 
Minneapolis, today's 
"Morning of Prayer" included several ways to reflect on 
"reconciliation," 
including "an outdoor labyrinth." 

But Bishop Swing's Grace Cathedral is the center of the 
modern-day 
Labyrinth-walking fad that has spread through New Age 
workshops, mainline Protestant 
churches, and Roman Catholic retreat centers and convents. The 
leader of this 
movement is Lauren Artress, an Episcopal priest who runs 
Veriditas - also known 
as the Labyrinth Project.

Artress, Canon for Special Ministries at Grace Cathedral, says 
that she first 
encountered the Labyrinth in January 1991, when she decided to 
"return to a 
Mystery School seminar with Dr. Jean Houston, an 
internationally known 
psychologist, author, and scholar whom I studied with in 
1985." (In the 1990s, 
Houston was best known to the public as the guru who helped 
Hillary Clinton contact 
the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt.) 

Artress says, "as soon as I set foot into the labyrinth I was 
overcome with 
an almost violent anxiety"; the next morning, she "awoke, 
distressed from a 
dream of having a heart attack." Nevertheless, she has devoted 
herself since then 
to spreading the labyrinth walk as a "spiritual tool" for all 
faiths. 
Labyrinths were built into some medieval Cathedrals in Western 
Europe before 
1500, but no documentation survives to show how - or whether - 
Catholics used 
labyrinths as part of their public liturgies or private 
devotions. After 
1500, most labyrinths were removed from cathedral floors; the 
Chartres labyrinth 
is one of the few that has survived from the Middle Ages to 
the present day. It 
went unused - and was usually covered with chairs for 
worshippers - until 
Artress began taking pilgrims to Chartres in the 
1990s.

Those who resurrect the labyrinth now are making up a new 
religious tradition 
in ancient costume, as the Neopagans have done since World War 
II and as the 
Freemasons did after 1717.

The labyrinth movement has long been intertwined with the URI. 
Barbara 
Hartford, a URI staff member in San Francisco, accompanied 
Artress on her first 
visit to the Chartres labyrinth in the early 1990s. Artress 
also acknowledges 
Sally Ackerly, who has been a URI staffer, as one of those who 
provided "help in 
launching the labyrinth." 

Since 1995, labyrinth walks have been common at URI events - 
from many of the 
URI-sponsored "religious cease fire" events held at the time 
of Y2K, to the 
most recent URI Global Assembly, held in Rio de Janeiro in the 
summer of 2002 
(attended by, among others, Canada's Bishop of New 
Westminster, Michael Ingham, 
who recently oversaw the first same-sex blessing rite in his 
diocese). 
As promoted by 

Re: [CTRL] More from Lee Penn

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Of course, he's a 
French New Ager withvery strange beliefs.Putting in "Le Pen, 
National Front and occult" into google produces an interesting, even for me, set 
of information. New Age=Nazi resurgence. Shannon, you're 
predictable.

-Original 
Message-From: Conspiracy Theory Research List 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William 
ShannonSent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:51 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] More from Lee 
Penn
-Caveat Lector- I'd 
  rather read Jean-Marie Le 
  Pen.Bill.www.ctrl.org 
  DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  
  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. 
  Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy 
  theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis 
  used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread 
  throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no 
  endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary 
  of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need 
  not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
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  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Gassed Kurds

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



From Circle of Fear by Hussein 
Sumaida, 1991, Brasseys

"Saddam still intended to be 
the God of the Dead. There were other nuclear projects at Hammam Ali and 
Irbil, which were to the west, nearer Mosul. Just to be sure, Saddam was 
still manufacturing other forms of death: nerve gas, mustard gas, 
typhoid. And the most deadly germ of them all, anthrax. There were 
chemical facilities around Baghdad, at Madain, Samarra and Al 
Qaaim.

"Just about everyone in Baghdad 
knew about a mysterious Canadian scientist who was one of the key men on the 
chemical-weapons program. They would point out his expensive house, which 
was near the home of the old Mukhabarat chief Barazan in the Al Jadriya 
district, on the peninsula that jutted out into the river. He lived there 
with his family, constantly guarded by security men supplied by the 
government. The scientist was a friend of that other Canadian who had been 
so vital to Saddam's war schemes, Gerald Bull.

"Bull was still working on the 
Supergun. But the modified Howitzers were being adapted to carry what we 
called Binaries. Special chemical warheads, they carried two different 
chemicals that, when exploded together, reacted with each other to create 
lethal gases. They were being developed by Bull's Canadian friend. 
At least that was the commonly held belief inside the 
Mukhabarat.

"The ultimate target was, as 
usual, Israel.

"The chemical projects were 
field-tested on whole villages of Kurdish men, women and children. The 
first tests were primitive, but effective. They simply flew over in Soviet 
Ilyushin transport planes and rolled barrels of the stuff out the side. On 
impact, chemicals in separate compartments combined to form lethal gases. 


"By March 16, 1988, the Iraqis 
had refined the process and tried out chemical bombs on the Kurds. The 
entire village of Halabja was wiped out in seconds. Other villages nearby 
were treated to a similar fate from the long-range Howitzers. This mass 
killing did not come to the world's attention until after the ceasefire between 
Iran and Iraq in July 1988. 

"The Kurds were Saddam's 
whipping boys. He had his military officers use them as practice targets 
for cluster bombs imported from Chile, then for modified cluster bombs called 
Siggils, fired by multimissle launchers. The Ababil missle was tried out 
to see what radius of killing field it would produce. It was a roaring 
success. 

"In a more traditional 
exercise, Saddam had his gunships wipe out thirty-six villages in the Imadya 
sectior in the north, leaving not one survivor. And then special units 
were sent in to demolish what little was left of the frail litttle village 
houses. Eventually they annihilated every village within thirty kilometers 
of the Iranian and Turkish borders. The war was the excuse for this 
slaughter. The Kurds were to be wiped out in order to create a 
no-mans-land along the border. Then, to prevent resettlement, the whole 
area was mined.

"Saddam couldn't get to the 
Jews. So he contented himself in the meantime with the genocide of the 
Kurds. The world said virtually nothing. In the summer of 
1988, the Kurds were again the guinea pigs for biological weapons. The 
military scientists tried out their typhoid virus, but for reasons that remain 
obscure, it was not a success.

"Biological warfare plants were 
build in Al Kut and Suwera, both to the southwest of Baghdad along the 
Tigris. I was never sure what they were busy cooking up in Al Kut, 
but at Suwera, I knew, they nurtured typhoid. A friend of mine who worked 
neraby at the technical college came to visit one day and recounted with glee 
the latest accident at the Suwera typhoid plant." pages 
238-9

"Saddam deported, tortured and 
killed opposition among the Shi'a. The gassing of the Kurds, another group 
who might have arisen against him, is also well-known. The actions of the 
Mukhabarat against the Kurds is less well known. The Mukhabarat used 
to send a female agent to sell a popular homemade yogurt to the Kurds. The 
yogurt, contaminated with cyanide or rat poison, would kill everyone who ate 
it. This was also done in Europe, to kill those judged to be a threat to 
Saddam. It was an alternative to the infamous "diplomatic 
box."

"Members of the Da'wah, Kurds, 
rebellious party members and military officers who offered competition to 
Saddam, all had been eliminated. They were delivered in boxes to their 
front doors after being gassed, shot, bombed or beheaded by a helicopter 
blade." page 209.


www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being 

Re: [CTRL] Catholic Hitler With Nazi Photos!

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



I can only refer others to the 
book The New Anti-Catholicism, the last acceptable prejudice" May 
2003. The New Agers have said they would turn monotheists against each 
other and destroy all sides of monotheismthe easy way. I would 
suggest that more effort is needed to expose the New Age agenda which is Nazism 
in action now. Sutherland, why not try to present the entire picture 
of what Catholics faced under the Nazis, what suckered some of them in and what 
caused others to confront them. It might help those who are dealing with 
New Agers now.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David 
  SutherlandSent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:18 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Catholic Hitler With Nazi 
  Photos!-Caveat Lector- 
  
  

  Nazi photos
  
  


  
  
Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in 
Berlin
On April 20, 1939, Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The 
celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. 
Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest 
congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the 
dioceses in Germany with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany 
are sending to heaven on their altars."
Hitler's 
Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell 
  
  
The Fhrer in Franken
Adolf Hitler (center) at the monument for the war dead in the small 
town of Franken. According to Ray Cowdery, Hitler rarely missed an 
opportunity to visit war memorials, even when a photographer was not 
present.

Source: Hitler: The Hoffmann Photographs, Vol. 1, Ray Cowdery, Ed., 
1990 
  
  


  
  




 

  

Hitler greets Muller the "Bishop of the Reich" and Abbot 
Schachleitner
  

 Hitler Greets a Catholic 
  Cardinal
  
  


  

  

Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of 
Hitler
  
  

  
  The two photos below show the Christianity of Nazis. They were published by 
  Nazis during Hitler's reign:
  
  Mementoes of German solders before the Christian cross and Hitler's Brown 
  Army attending church service
  The first photo comes from:
  
Die Jugend Des Fuhrers Adolf Hitler: Bildbuch uber die grossdeutsche 
Jugend, 1942 
(The youth of the Fuhrers Adolf Hilter: Picture book for German youth) 

  The second comes from:
  
Das Braune Heer: mit einem geleitwort von Adolf Hitler 
(The Brown Army: with a foreword by Adolf Hitler) 




 


Mass meeting of the German Christian Movement 
13 Nov.1933 
  A radical wing of German Lutheranism and the main Protestant branch 
  supporting Nazi ideology, the German Christian Movement reconciled Christian 
  doctrine with German nationalism and antisemitism.
  (from the Museum of 
  Tolerance)
  
  
  
  
  
  Investiture of Reich Church Bishop, 1933
  Women in traditional dresses joined Nazis at the investiture of Ludwig 
  Muller as Reich Church Bishop. Muller praised the concept of "one mighty, 
  all-embracing German people's church."
  (from the Museum of 
  Tolerance)
  
  
  
  
  


  
  
Hitler leaving Church
Hitler leaves the Marine Church in Wilhelmshaven.
(From: The German 
Propaganda Archive ) 
  
  


  


  Hitler signing his autograph for a Christian fan
  Source: Hitler in Seinen Bergen, Heinrich Hoffmann, Berlin, den 
  24.9.35 
  




  
  Hitler praying
  
  The caption reads: "Der ergreifende Abschlub der Kundgebung in 
  Wien: Wir treten zum Beten..."
  [The touching and emotional end of the rally in Vienna: Let us 
  pray...]
  Source: Hitler: The Hoffmann Photographs, Vol. 1, Ray R. Cowdery, 
  Ed., 1990 
  
  


  
  

Hitler's mother's grave

Klara Hitler was a pious Catholic mother who raised Hitler according 
to her beliefs.
Hitler felt grief-stricken over his mother's death. She was buried 
alongside her husband in Linz, Austria. German soldiers here pay their 
respects to the grave in 1938.
Note the Christian cross on her monument.
Source: The 
Importance of Adolf Hitler, by Eleanor H. Ayer, Lucent Books, 1996 
(p. 25) 
  
  

  
  
  


  
  
A Cardinal marches with the Nazis
Cardinal Michael Faulhaber marches between rows of SA men at a Nazi 
rally in Munich.


  Source: A 
  

[CTRL] URI

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-





  
  Lee Penn has sharedhis 
  articleon the URI, and I felt it was important enough to share with as 
  many people as possible. New Age: One world government. One 
  world religion. Pagan thinking infiltrated the religious communities in 
  Nazi Germany. It is doing the same nowon a worldwide 
  basis.
  Dorothy
  
  Please forward this as widely as possible (or, you may post it 
  on your web site), without making any changes to the Christian 
  Challenge story in this e-mail. It provides a brief overview of the 
  United Religions Initiative, and shows widespread support for this radical 
  interfaith movement from Anglican and Episcopalian bishops.Lee 
  Penn
  DON'T LOOK NOW, BUT...
  Another Liberal Movement Slowly
  But Surely Gains Supporters Among
  Episcopal, Other Anglican Bishops
  Report/Analysis By Lee Penn
  The Christian Challenge (Washington, DC)
  July 30, 2003
  *
  "I specifically invoked Hekate and Hermes by name, and Bishop 
  Swing was right 
  there raising his arms in invocation with the rest of the 
  Circle! We have, 
  indeed, come a long way."
  *
  SUPPORT FOR IT has been indicated by Anglican bishops like 
  Michael Ingham of 
  Vancouver, Desmond Tutu of South Africa, Frederick Borsch 
  (formerly of Los 
  Angeles), Episcopal Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, and the 
  head of his church's 
  ecumenical office, Christopher Epting - among 
  others.
  Do we speak of same-sex unions, or gay bishops-elect, both 
  issues at the 
  center of controversy at the Episcopal General Convention, 
  which opens today in 
  Minneapolis?
  Not in this case. Rather, all the bishops named have expressed 
  support for 
  another, but little-noticed, movement linked to the U.S. 
  Episcopal Church 
  (ECUSA): the controversial United Religions Initiative (URI), 
  which California 
  Episcopal Bishop William Swing founded in 1996.
  The URI hopes to bring together on a regular basis 
  representatives of the 
  major *and* minor faith systems, including those of the New 
  Age/pagan/occult 
  genre, to help resolve conflicts in the world. However, some 
  of its critics 
  believe the interfaith initiative envisions or could lead to a 
  one-world religion. 
  In its Charter, the URI describes itself as "a growing global 
  community 
  dedicated to promoting enduring, daily interfaith cooperation, 
  ending religiously 
  motivated violence and creating cultures of peace, justice and 
  healing for the 
  Earth and all living beings...The URI, in time, aspires to 
  have the visibility 
  and stature of the United Nations."
  
  In November 2002, URI Executive Director Charles Gibbs hailed 
  the growth of 
  the movement: "Since 1996, the URI has grown from a small 
  group of 55 visionary 
  people to a global organizationengaging over 15,000 
  interfaith activists 
  from 88 faith traditions and 46 countries." The URI says that 
  over the next three 
  years, it "fully expects to grow from 15,000 members to more 
  than 30,000We 
  hope to engage 3 million people and many partner organizations 
  in a global 
  action research project--Visions for Peace Among Religions, 
  designed to create 
  peace among religions for the 21st century." 
  Worldwide, the URI now has 202 chapters (which they call 
  Cooperation Circles) 
  Moreover, a majority of URI Cooperation Circles are where one 
  would least 
  expect them, the largely conservative global South--Asia, 
  Africa, Latin 
  America--along with the Middle East, and the 
  non-English-speaking nations of the 
  Pacific Rim. Nineteen of the 37 members of the URI Global 
  Council, its board of 
  directors, are from the same regions. Thus, the URI's base has 
  expanded well 
  beyond Western liberals, who have been the usual backers of 
  interfaith movements.
  URI allies include the United Nations (in particular, UNESCO 
  and the UN 
  Environmental Program), Mikhail Gorbachev's star-studded State 
  of the World Forum, 
  and the Earth Charter movement, led by Maurice Strong, a 
  wealthy Canadian 
  advocate of world government. The URI also enjoys tacit 
  support or active 
  cooperation from most other interfaith organizations, 
  including the Council for the 
  Parliament of the World's Religions, the World Conference on 
  Religion and Peace, 
  the Temple of Understanding, and the North American Interfaith 
  Network. The 
  Vatican, the Eastern Orthodox, and Evangelical Protestants 
  oppose the URI.
  THE URI'S AGENDA goes well beyond its stated goal of ending 
  religiously 
  motivated violence.
  URI leaders and their allies repeatedly equate evangelism with 
  manipulative 
  "proselytizing" and violence. If the URI vision prevails, 
  Christian evangelism 
  based on the unique, saving identity and acts of Christ would 
  

[CTRL]

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Here, dear friends, is 
Holocaust Denial in action. Just what are you going to do about it. 
It was posted by William Shannon on a 
ConspiracyTheoryResearchList. You can join in 
veryeasily. It takes almost no effort to subscribe.After 
subscribing you can opt out and avoid receiving tons of other email 
messages.To do so, just go to the bottom of this post. 


Granted it'sonly one site 
among many. However, here is an opportunity to do something other than 
just talk among yourselves. Yes, everyone is busy. Yes, everyone 
rationalizes that their time is worth so much more than the time it would take 
to respond to this post. However, others are reading this kind of post and 
are being persuaded because the Christian and Jew haters arewilling 
to work very hardfor their beliefs. Yes, the ADL, the Southern 
PovertyLaw Center and Weisenthal to whom you may send contributions should 
do something, but they can't be everywhere. Though they document, they 
don't respond to to everyboard post that is influencing 
others.

Know that Ido not have much hope that Christians 
orJews much care.about what is 
happening.. Both establishment figuresyap away about 
the the future, totally away about the commandmants. Why 
shoud I expect individuals to stick their necks aaout when establishment figures 
keep silent for whatever their reason, Whether old testament or old 
tesament, there is no exeption given to those ignoring the 
commandments.
Caveat Lector- http://ihr.org/leaflets/denial.htmlWhat 
is 'Holocaust Denial'?In recent years, more and more attention has 
been devoted to the supposed danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, 
newspapers and television warn about the growing influence of those who reject 
the Holocaust story that some six million European Jews were systematically 
exterminated during the Second World War, most of them in gas 
chambers.In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and 
Austria, "Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished 
with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community leaders are 
calling for similar government measures in North America against so-called 
"deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League for Human 
Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization, says: (note 
1)
The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two 
  million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six 
  million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who 
  denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust 
itself.
Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just 
what constitutes "Holocaust denial"?Six Million?Should 
someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe -- as 
Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed during World War 
II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 
1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted 
in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the 
extermination institutions." (note 2)Yet if that is so, then several of 
the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." 
Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The 
Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews 
died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald 
Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six 
million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high 
as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable 
information.Human Soap?Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if 
he says that the Nazis didn't use Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all 
the evidence (including an actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the 
Nuremberg Tribunal declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts 
were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial 
manufacture of soap." (note 3)In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad 
Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap 
story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human 
fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them 
something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. 
(note 4)Wannsee Conference?Is someone a "Holocaust 
denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942 "Wannsee conference" of 
German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a program of systematic mass 
murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be 
wrong -- and a "Holocaust denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public 
still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the 
extermination of the 

Re: [CTRL] Oh Zuukie

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Shannon, based on the lack of 
response to my post, I would say your side which appeals to the weakest side of 
human nature has scored a victory. Youand other Holocaust 
deniers want to convince others that minimal damage was done in the past. 
Because New Age is a resurgence of Nazism it is important for those like 
you to minimize what happened in Germany so they accept the changestaking 
place. I wish everyone wouldread what happened to the Germans who 
believed in Hitler...the deaths, the bombed out buildings, the poverty, the 
prostitution to survive.Jews weren't the only 
ones who suffered 
because Hitler and his crew got others to trust in them.  
Those who ignore what is happening now are like the Germans in the 20s, 30s and 
40s. Whether they don't see what is taking place or whether they believe 
the people like you with your lies that there is no difference between Holocaust 
deniers and those who arefine tuning information about what happened, it's 
all the same. 
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William 
ShannonSent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:13 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Oh 
Zuukie
-Caveat Lector- In a 
  message dated 7/28/2003 1:00:05 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Here, dear friends, is Holocaust Denial in 
  actionYes, join Raul Hilberg, Gerald Reitlinger, Yad Vashem 
  official Shmuel Krakowski, Yehuda Bauer, Arno J. Mayer, Jean-Claude 
  Pressac and others in being labelled "deniers" for wanting and finding the 
  truth in a maze of lies and distortions. It won't hurt a bit. 
  Bill.www.ctrl.org 
  DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  
  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. 
  Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy 
  theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis 
  used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread 
  throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no 
  endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary 
  of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need 
  not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
  [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF 
  CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Kosher Conservative Warns Mel Gibson's Movie May Be Undoing Of ADL

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



I was just 
wondering what one of these posts would like like if all of the emotionally 
loaded words were blocked, so I tried it and am sharing it.It's 
difficult to have dialogue around emotionally loaded words as they represent 
personal viewpoints that may or may not have a factual basis. 


As far as 
the film is concerned,only time will tell whetheritwill 
strengthen Catholic moral beliefs among his splinter group or provide fodder for 
the revisionists, whether there are more Christians or revisionists in our 
culture.I look forward to seeing Gibson do a film on the reasons why 
his group of Catholics split from the main Catholic church and why they consider 
themselves the true Catholics. Based on information about splinter 
Catholic beliefs, the Protestants, Adventists, Mormons, and Christian New Agers, 
mightbe writing about his anti-Christian beliefs. While Gibson 
may believe he is promoting a work of art, he in time will learn that he is 
promoting ideas, and ideas have consequences. He will have to face the 
consequences, whatever they are.Whether in the long run is is seen as a great 
filmdirector or as an irresponsible individual who is throwing gasoline on 
the growing fire of antisemitism and anti-Christianity is up to him. 


  Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:44 
  PM
  Subject: [CTRL]-- 
  --Warns Mel Gibson's Movie May Be "Undoing" Of 
  ADL-Michael A. Hoffman II, 
  Editorhttp://www.hoffman-info.com/news.htmlJuly 24, 
  2003A-- Proposition for Zionism:-- vs. 
  ArtA-- 
  -- --Warns that Mel Gibson's Movie May Prove to be the 
  "--" of the 
  ADLHoffman-- beneath appearances to deconstruct 
  the tactics and strategy of a "-- Gentileby Michael A. 
  Hoffman IICopyright(c)2003 by hoffman-info.comJoseph Farah is 
  an-- -- 
  --who has-- Israeli against 
  Palestinian-- and-- 
  the-- 
  --concerning the ongoing Israeli-- in 
  the-- territories. What then are we 
  to make of Farah's-- warning to the Anti-Defamation 
  League of B'nai B'rith (reproduced below). Is it sincere or a feint? 
  Perhaps a bit of both. It looks as though Hollywood fixture Mel Gibson 
  has made a movie about the-- and-- of 
  Christ that is such a-- piece of cinematic art that to 
  condemn it is to render oneself an-- 
  --and--. Farah seems to be signaling to 
  the Zionist-- that they had better take a pass on 
  "The Passion," lest they-- a--loss 
  of credibility in campaigning against it. Gibson has used 
  a-- 
  -- tack to get his--Christian viewpoint into mass 
  circulation-- the prerogative of the artist -- something this writer has 
  for years been recommending to World War Two--, who 
  mostly rely on-- --and technical reports as a 
  means of persuasion. My 1986 novel, "A Candidate for the Order," and 1989 
  illustrated satire, "Tales of the--," were attempts to use art and 
  literature to-- 
  --and minds to revisionism's skeptical take 
  on--.-- 
  --in-- gas 
  chambers at Auschwitz can dismiss revisionist technical reports as "junk 
  science," but they will have a much harder time putting down Art with a 
  revisionist theme. Americans have not been-- 
  these past forty years into-- to-- --, 
  abortion, homosexual "marriage" and-- pollution and-- 
  mainly on the basis of scientific reports and statistical studies. They 
  have beenand-- 
  primarily through the-- --of--- 
  photographed movies with-- --themes, "Tonight" show 
  monologues, songs, novels, theatre, Oprah and Orwellian 
  Newspeak.--, World War Two revisionists 
  have--along these past twenty 
  years of the psychology and epistemology 
  of the arts, the academes, That show, contain and nourish all the 
  world.Gibson's previous movie, "Braveheart," is a recognized 
  masterwork of the silver screen. If Gibson has brought similar talent and 
  resources to his film about Christ's-- 
  --(known in theology as the "Passion"), then his movie 
  will turn the tables on the Establishment and bowl over every 
  last-- who stands in its way. Farah does 
  not want to see his-- --stigmatized as-and prejudiced.-- have 
  had too much fun-- -- -- -- -- -- , to want to witness 
  the devastating effects of being hoisted by their own petard. 
  Farah, though he assumes a-- -- -- -- -- -- --, is in fact, 
  like many-- -- 
  , a--t by political conviction 
  and-- consideration. When he warns his 
  Israeli-American-- that Gibson's art is too 
  compelling to overcome with the---  
  methods, this does not signal that Farah has been converted to the cause 
  of--, but rather that hes recognized 
  the enduring power of Art, even in these-- 
  times, and is calling for caution and tactical retreat, the better to 
  retain an enduring strategic advantage for the "-- --" 
  and the-- -- -- 
  --relations" movement. The kind 
  of-- chess play exhibited by Farah, a 
  hallmark of-- -- -- -- 
  --, has been on the wane in our modern era of 
  Jewish--, where we have seen--,-- -- 
  -- 

Re: [CTRL] Kosher Conservative Warns Mel Gibson's Movie May Be Undoi...

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




There are many websites whichcall what 
they doHistorical Revisionism. What makes them different from normal 
academic research?
1. Academic research, though 
short of perfect, allows for discussion of conclusions. Various viewpoints 
based on angles of research are presented. Those who label themselves 
historical revisionists are just that. Their goal is to revise 
history. Open discussion is not encouraged.. It's like historical 
research under Hitler or Stalin. 

2. Academic research must 
stand up to peer review, that is, others who have researched the same 
subjects. Historical revisionism is written for an audience that wants to 
justify certain conclusions.
3. Academic research that is 
respectable is emotionally neutral. There is a level of self-discipline 
that is expected of those presenting factual information. 

4. Historical revisionists lack 
a sense of proportion. If they find a flaw, they state thebaby 
and the bathwater must go out the window. 
While as individuals we like 
tosupport the underdog,sometimes that can be dangerous as the 
underdog rolemight be calculated to manipulate. The historical 
revisionist information needs to be subject to the same rigorous standards 
we use to accept information from others. It's obvious that we are not 
getting unmanipulated information from sources we are supposed to trust. 
That doesn't mean we need trust everyone who says the same words. The 
world is more complex than that. 
The following is taken from a 
historical reivionist's website. Is this neutral research? The 
emotional tone can be turned against any group that the author wishes to 
attack. Are you prepared to defend yourself against this kind of emotional 
attack for whatever stand you are 
taking?
www.fixedearth.com/HISTREV.HTM
Historical Revisionists who have been 
driven by a desire to see Truth prevail over deception have already been thru 
Boot Camp and are toughened for this battle of battles. Whatever our backgrounds and present 
beliefs, let us answer this highest of all callings and faithfully do the job 
for which we are uniquely qualified. 
That job is to confirm--and then amplify and broadcast in all ways 
possible--the esoteric, Christ-hating, perversion-spreading, justice-denying, 
arrogant teachings of the Talmud (basics HERE), and then do 
likewise to the Kabbalistic pseudo-scientific machinations behind NASAs Big 
Bang paradigm and its promotion of evolutionism thru its tax supported 
Origins Program (basics HERE, HERE, HERE, 
 
HERE.) 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 6:04 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Kosher 
  Conservative Warns Mel Gibson's Movie May Be 
  "Undoi...-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 7/26/2003 
  5:53:06 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Is Holocaust revisionism anything but Holocaust denial? 
  I think it 
  is. I 
  hardlysee any revisionist/denier claiming that the Holocaust never 
  happened, justthat it was hyped. Wasn't it? La Raza's claim of the "Kosher 
  Nostra scam" is a completefabrication.Oh? How so?Bill.www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  
  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot 
  soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
  [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF 
  CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not 

Re: [CTRL] Kosher Conservative Warns Mel Gibson's Movie May Be Undoi...

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Hey Shannon, the Islamic population also uses kosher labeling as a
determination of foods that are acceptable.  And Muslims and Orthodox
Jews are not the only ones.  Why not let capitalism determine whether
the companies want to go thru the kosher labeling process?  Or are you
against free enterprise also?

http://.soundvision.com/Info/halalhealthy/kosherlabeling.asp

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Constance Cumbey on Solana

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-





Constance Cumbey shared this information 
on Solana. Since she is far ahead of common information on Solana, I would 
suggest that otherscheck this information out.Solanais a major sponsor of the one world government part of 
the New Age movement. It's arrogance to assume 
that good information can't come out of the fundamentalist Christian 
movement.

Ten Days in 
November 1995

By Constance E. 
Cumbey
© 
2003  License to reprint and republish granted provided it is without change 
other than expressly authorized in writing
On the first day 
(November 20th, 1995), Javier Solana de Madariaga, acting on behalf of the 
European Union and Western European Nation, a ten nation federation, signed a 
treaty binding the European Union and Israel to a "Treaty of Association." It was scheduled to be implemented on 
January 1, 1997. It was finally 
ratified and implemented in June, 2000
On the third 
day, November 22nd, 1995, the Modest and Northern Africa was shaken by a violent 
earthquake epic entered at Eilat, Israel. 
Heads rolled from royal mummies in the Great Pyramid of Giza and its 
sister monuments. They had been 
safely undisturbed for thousands of years. 
In a region of the world where three major world religions held forth, 
such might well be considered an omen  perhaps even a divine warning. That quake would be soon downplayed. Perhaps that was because they didnt 
want to draw the attention of three major world religions any more than 
necessary to the EU-Israeli treaty.
On the seventh 
day, November 27, 1995, Javier Solana convened the Barcelona Conference. It had three major 
goals:
Battle religious 
fundamentalism  worldwide; 

  Favorable 
  trading terms for the European nations in the Mediterranean 
  basin 
  Get the USA 
  out of the Mediterranean 
  
Although it had 
requested participant status, the United States was granted observer status 
only!
The conference 
was opened with a distinct attack on the Roman Catholic Church. Javier Solana observed in his 
introductory remarks that it was auspicious that the conference had begun on the 
calling of the 900th anniversary of the first crusade called by Pope 
Urban II. What a lot of 
intolerance and misunderstanding that caused . . . opined Dr. 
Solana.
Muammar Khaddafy 
of Libya refused to participate in the event. Cant you idiots see that this is a 
blatant attempt to gain European hegemony over our region? he prophetically 
said. Five years later, in 2000 he would 
figuratively crawl to gain Javier Solanas approval and acceptance as he begged 
to be accepted into the European Club.
Israel and 26 
other nations had joined that European Club as they signed their mutual 
Barcelona Treaty pact on November 28, 1995. There was profound gushing by Israel and 
the PLO to the effect that they had beaten their plowshares into 
swords.
Solana had 
accomplished much in 8 days of late November, 1995. The omen-like earthquake was suddenly 
downplayed in the press to one only 6.2 mw in strength rather than the 100-fold 
increase in magnitude to 7.2 that it really was. Architects and engineers were left 
holding the bag. They were 
criticized for designing structures that could not withstand a 6.2 
quake.
The United 
States geological service as well as University of Michigan and Ohio websites 
continued to record its true magnitude.
On the 
10th day of this cycle, Javier Solana, the leader of the Spanish 
opposition to NATO, the proud author of a pamphlet entitled 50 REASONS TO SAY NO 
TO NATO became the new head of NATO. This was to the immense shock of the 
Spanish press.
The Gonzalez 
government of Spain of which Javier Solana had been a chief architect was going 
down in shame and scandal. Javier 
Solana emerged smelling like a rose as his colleagues went down figuratively 
smelling like skunks. Their careers 
were ending. His was only 
beginning.
Solana had been 
unanimously picked to be the new head of NATO. 
Who is Javier 
Solana? What do we know about 
him from the small snippets he has revealed to us? How did a man this powerful escape, 
so far, extensive critical public scrutiny? In the year 2000 he proposed in his 
solely controlled Western European Union Recommendation 666. It proposed clearly dictatorial 
power
 
I am writing a book that seeks to fill in a few of those gaps. I wish shamelessly to inspire necessary 
scrutiny of Javier Solana. If any of you out there beat me to it 
that is ok too. 
Check it 
out! Herb Peters website, 
Fulfilledprophecy.com has many of the clues you need to begin the scavenger 
hunt! 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the 

Re: [CTRL] A Rush of Dittos

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

It was liberal Phil Donahue's company that put Limbaugh on the air.  He
was a provision made for dissidents.  He started out exposing a lot,
which gained his audience.  Jerry Falwell's newsletter in the '80s did
the same.  Then came the die off of anything resembling real
information.  The unthinking mid-level conservative audience was
suckered in.  They could be lazy.  Rush would do the work for them.  He
told them so.  He served two purposes:  a target for the left and a
brick wall for those who wanted more information from the conservative
side.  Good grief...is there a school somewhere that teaches how to come
across as being sincere.  There are a lot of other provision made for
dissidents yackers out there.  On the far right and on the far left as
well.  That could be the subject for a very interesting book.  Did some
of the posters on this board take a mail order course on this topic?

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of iNFoWaRZ
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 4:18 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] A Rush of Dittos


-Caveat Lector-

A Rush of Dittos
By Sartre 7-21-3

Are you a fan of EIB? Do you still think that the cutting edge is heard
coast-to-coast, on the syndicated phenomenon, that boasts - 'the
greatest radio show on earth!' Rush Limbaugh went national during the
last days of the Ronald Reagan administration. Those who recall that
bold and fresh attitude will remember that Rush was radical. Reminiscent
of the early work of Larry King out of Miami, the broadcast hit at the
under belly of the ruling class. One even heard carping of George H Bush
back in those days, when the principles of the Gipper began to fade. As
the Clinton's took power, the show swung into high gear. And as Rushs
web site states: 'The rest is history.'

If you have any doubts about his talent, he will set the record straight
- Rush is Right! But is he really conservative? Bear in mind, this is
the same guy that stated in his
http://rosecity.net/rush/truths2.htmlOriginal 35 Undeniable Truths of
Life, No 11 - Neither the US, nor anyone else, imposes freedom on the
peoples of other nations.

Now we will be treated to the next evolution of the pedagog from Cape
Girardeau. Starting on September 4th, the following Sunday, and every
Sunday throughout the season all the way to the Super Bowl I will be
appearing with Chris Berman, Steve Young, Tom Jackson, Michael Irvin and
the whole cast at ESPN Sunday NFL Countdown. Well, we wish Rush all
success in his actual passion - Football. His unrivaled entertainment
style needs a break from politics. Thank our lucky stars that Rush
didn't seek to replace his fellow 'Show-Me State' recently resigned GOP
chairman, Jack Walters. Can you imagine the master cheer leader rebuking
the closing statement from Mr Walters: I grieve for our nation, and the
untold suffering that will be wrought. As history has shown, you can
possess the greatest armaments in the world, but if your cause and
motives are not right, only catastrophe will result.

Expertise in politics is not synonymous with blind faith regarding
partisan policy. Fidelity to principle is seldom demonstrated within any
party regime. An authentic conservative philosophy has been forsaken, as
Rush attributes faultlessness to a failed GOP administration. Common
sense demands consistency with fundamental values. Rush has aged into a
reliable mouthpiece for the Bush agenda. Republicanism under the madness
of King George, has succumbed to the nihilism of the NeoCon betrayal
mindset. Limbaugh has become an aspirant Limey. His brand of phony
conservative politics has decayed into a defense of a compassionate
globalism. This modern day Tory pays homage to the Crown of an American
empire. He now seduces his audience with appeals of impulsive
patriotism, while abandoning even the pretension of limited government.

Since the former firebrand, values his media crown more than veracity,
his significance is reduced to sport. No question ESPN's gain will
divert from the culpability that sober folks will hold for the neo Rush.
He will charm, beguile and tell us of the greatest of those Steeler
teams. Any relaxation from being a Bush butt boy will be refreshing.

The only Ditto left to agree with is a profound disgust for all pinko
DemocRATS. Too bad that Rush lacks the courage to admit that the
RepubliCANTS, are unable and unwilling to restore an actual Republic.
Where is the commitment for reform in his message? Where are all those
parodies that exposed the underbelly of the central government beast
that had the twin profiles of a Klinton head? Surely, no sane person
would conclude that the Feds have championed individual Liberty under
Dubya's GOP? Rush acts like it's GOD's Only Party . . .

The sonorousness of Rush has become a pompous and pretentious farce. He
wants the status of a sage and the bust appearance of a Pallas. However;
his parroting of a benign New 

[CTRL] CTRL] Global Elite Promoting 'End Times' Myth

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

Steve, I see you've moved into phase two of New Age.  Are you really so
sure that all of the New Age planning wasn't done by the global Nazi
types who have been working to move society away from the monotheistic
religions?

From a new text book, copyright 2002, Religions in the Modern World,
Chapter: New Age Religion, subheading: New Age in a wide and in a strict
sense, subheading Flying Saucers and Utopian Communities.

The immediate roots of the New Age movement may seem surprising at
first sight.  Shortly after the Second World War, popular curiosity was
attracted by unexplained phenommena in the sky referred to as
Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO's).  In various places in Western
Europe and in the US study groups were formed by people who wanted to
investigate these phenomena, and some of these groups proceeded to take
on 'cultic' characteristics.  Typically such groups believed that the
USOs were in fact spaceships inhabited by intelligent beings from other
planets or other dimensions of outer space.  Representing a superior
level of cultural, technological and spiritual evolution, they now made
their appearance to herald the coming of a New Age.  The earth was
entering a new evolutionary cycle that would be accompanied by a new and
superior kind of consciousness.  However since the present cultures of
humanity were thoroughly corrupted by materialism, the;y would resist
this change.  As a result the transition to a new cycle of evolution
would necessitate the destruction of the old civilization by violent
causes such as earthquakes, floods, diseases and the like, resulting in
a global economic, political and social collapse.  Those individuals
whose consciousness was already in tune would survive the period of
cataclysms.  In due course they would become the vanguard of the New Age
or Age of Aquarius: an age of abundance, bliss and spiritual
enlightenment when humanity would once again live in accordance with
universal cosmic laws (Spangler 1984).  (Note:  This spin was to show
how New Age thinking came out of Christian esoteric beliefs.)

...
Looking to the future:
As long as the grand narratives of the West fail to regain their hold
over  the population and no new ones are forthcoming, and as long as
Western democratic societies continue to emphasize the supreme virtue of
individual freedom, the type of 'self religion' traditionally known as
New Age willl remain a force to be reckoned with.

The chapter on New Age is 15 tightly packed pages of spin for the
college age general public.

Better information came out of an academic conference in Denmark,
resulting in the book New Age Religion and Globalization.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Wingate
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 2:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] RE: [CTRL] Global Elite Promoting 'End Times' Myth


-Caveat Lector-

Jim, The Bible is mindcontrol bullshit created by a group of ETs bent on
controlling humans. God is a now dead ET. You are a mind-controlled slob
like most of us. Get with the plan and get real. You are currently
defined as a chump by the real God, all of us.

Steve

On 20 Jul 2003 at 21:03, Jim Rarey wrote:


 Much of the symbolism in Revelation is explained in Daniel and other
 Old Testament books. If read as a whole, the Bible explains
 (interprets) itself.

 The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple was prophesized by

 Jesus. That was separate and apart from the tribulation he (Jesus)
 talks about later.


--
ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
http://www.anomalous-images.com

www.ctrl.org
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[CTRL] RE: [CTRL] Global Elite Promoting 'End Times' Myth

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



The wicky wacky world of these conspiracy 
researchers deserves attention. We start out with someone who said 
they will write for American Free Press which is a Carto deal. We 
then move to Carto describing the IHS people. As a side note it's 
interesting to note that the money came from an Edison heir, the same Edison who 
was involved with the Theosophists. And gosh Shannon, haven't you heard of 
the bible book called Revelations which plays a large role in end-time 
scenarios? The little article you posted shows so many parallels with New 
Age thinking it's a shame that Alice Bailey didn't get credit for some of the 
theories. Thanks Shannon for bringing forth information about the 
Libertarian Socialist network, the Nazi Overthrow website, etc. We all 
need to see the what's in the cesspool under your feet. 

ONE:
http://homepage.mac.com/lsf/others/020116billwhite.html
What others have said about Willis Carto
http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?fileName=lsn20020116184925.html
I Sign Deal With Willis Carto
Will Write For American Free Press
1/16/2002 6:49:25 PM
Bill White
Washington, DC -- I met Willis Carto today. Nice guy, a little wacky, but 
mostly pretty intelligent and pleasant. Definitely has a Hitler thing, but I can 
overlook that. Talked to him for just over two hours, and we reached a deal 
where I will begin writing 750-word pieces for his latest publication, The 
American Free Press (http://www.americanfreepress.net).
It was actually a bit of a funny scene today -- when I first showed up at the 
door they wouldn't answer it because they thought anyone as well dressed as I 
who wanted to talk to them must be a process server. Eventually I did get in 
though.
It was also a bit surreal. I have never been in a room where some guy comes 
and goes "Hey Willis: I just got off the phone with David Duke and he says hi 
from Germany."...
There may be some who wonder if my acceptance of this deal represents a great 
ideological change, but it doesn't. I will be choosing by own topics for 
writing, and the bottom line is that he offered me pretty good money to write 
'em, given how short they are
The conversation with Carto was interesting. I won't go into too much 
personal detail, but I learned all sorts of neat things like the Institute for 
Historical Review -- the nation's largest Holocaust denial/debunkal whatever you 
want to call it organization -- is now owned by the Church 
of Scientology. At one point, Carto whipped this cover off of this huge 
stack of paper -- like as tall and as thick as a filing cabinet, stacked on the 
floor, and went "That's my file on the Scientologists. They are evil 
people."
As another funny aside, I mentioned I had read a lot about him in the SPLC's 
Intelligence Report, and his only answer was "what's that?". Hehe


P.S. Bill White has written us to add:

  Willis Carto did tell me that he has no official relationship with the 
  American Free Press, and is only in their offices as an unpaid 
  consultant and a resource.
But of course he did. He used to say the same thing about his relationship 
with LSF/IHR -- until we found out that he had diverted in excess of $7.5 
million dollars from the corporation for his own purposes. If I were at 
American Free Press, I'd be worried about what "volunteer" Carto was 
doing with the money, to say the least.



  
  

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  The Mystery of the Edison 
Millions
  
  When the grand niece of famous American 
  inventor Thomas Alva Edison, Jean Farrel, died in Lausanne, Switzerland in 
  1985, her death began one of the most bizarre chain of events in Swiss and 
  American legal history.
  Ms Farrel had been a strong supporter of 
  Willis Carto, publisher of the Populist Spotlight, a Washington-based 
  weekly paper that had become increasingly unpopular in certain circles 
  because of its outspoken and often acerbic articles on current political 
  and economic subjects.
  Mr. Carto was also the treasurer of the 
  Legion for the Survival of Freedom, founded in 1952 as a non-profit 
  Texas-based corporation.
  In 1980, The Legion created the Institute 
  for Historical Review, an historical revisionist entity that published a 
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  The IHR Journal contained articles of 
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  had a respectable 

Re: [CTRL] RE: [CTRL] Global Elite Promoting 'End Times' Myth

[Zuukie]

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-




Ah just look at the 
company you keep Shannon.
The little link 
in your post goes to theThe Christ Conspiracywhich is published by 
Adventures Unlimited, an offshoot of the Stelle group here in Illinois. 
That group was started by a channeler who then ran off and left the community 
here in Illinois to go to a more profitable one in Texas. The site 
describes the author and the outlets for her research. Really academic 
publications. However her identity 
is hidden, so no one can check on all of these academic references she 
lists. 
Of course you aren't a Christian Shannon. We all knew 
that.New Age is a resurgence of Nazism. Birds of a feather and 
all that.
---
Acharya S has gained mastery in several religions, as 
well other esoterica and the supernatural, and has a number of students and 
devotees. She is also the author of several books, including The 
Christ Conspiracy, Paradise 
Found and The Aquarian Manifesto: A Handbook for 
Survival into and a Blueprint for the New Age. Her current book is 
Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ 
Unveiled. Articles by Acharya S have 
been published in Exposure, Steamshovel 
Press, Paranoia, Abyss and 
Cyberculture Counterconspiracy II, Wake Up Down There! The Excluded Middle 
Anthology, as well as other periodicals 
and ezines. 

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory Research 
  List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William 
  ShannonSent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 1:23 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] RE: [CTRL] Global Elite 
  Promoting 'End Times' Myth-Caveat 
  Lector- In a 
  message dated 7/20/2003 1:02:53 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  Many of Shannon's postings reflect the 
New Age treatment of Christianity as their main enemy. We can only surmise 
that he feels the same way.Oh thanks for the laugh today...glad Zuukie has found a playmate for 
  her wacky, "Jewishly" paranoid madness. She was seeming lonely of late. I am 
  not a Xian though by and large I am in 
  agreement with traditional Christian thought on many subjects, not all, but 
  many. Anything that shines a harsh light on the nonsense of dispensationalism 
  is a good thing regardless of its source. The wonderful piece I forwarded from 
  the populist (and indispensible) American Free Press shows clearly the true 
  Christian position regarding the "end times" and Israel and ought to be 
  something anyone calling themselves Christian becomes aware of so that they 
  may break free from the shackles of Zionism forthwith. Between airy-fairy new 
  age claptrap and murderous, racist Zionism the choice is a 
  no-brainer.Bill. 
  www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion 
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  no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be 
  wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's 
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  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat 
  Lector. 
   
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always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Re: [CTRL] Rense and Savage...a combo

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

It's not so hard to understand the borders of New Age thinking.  Start
with One World Government and One World Relgion and make sure that every
thought you are allowed is for the good of the community as defined by
others.   See how the topics at the following site fit into those
borders.  http://www.wholeagain.com/home.html  Understand that if you
oppose anything on that list you are going against New Age thinking.
The reference book put out by the group was even more extensive and was
called the best guide to networking the New Age movement by leaders in
that movement.  To help you understand what the New Age movement is
about, get some books on how the Nazis suckered the population into
thinking that the Nazi movement was idealistic.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Wingate
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Rense and Savage...a combo


-Caveat Lector-

The New Age movement is not very well-defined. It is hard to imagine
anyone marching lock- step with New Age philosophy. There are however,
many cults, and many religions that require this kind of obedience.

Steve

On 12 Jul 2003 at 21:30, Zuukie wrote:

  New Age comes in thru both the right and the left, but
 once it's in, percentage wise, there is no deviation allowed.  Just as

 in the Nazi period, no deviation from New Age thinking is allowed.


--
ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
http://www.anomalous-images.com

www.ctrl.org
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] Rense and Savage...a combo

[Zuukie]

-Caveat Lector-

What's the matter?  Can't you face it that one of the favorite sources
of posters to this board is really supported by a New Age cult leader?
Not all anti-Zionists are antisemites, but all antisemites are
anti-Zionists.

-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of flw
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 11:15 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Rense and Savage...a combo


-Caveat Lector-

Funny, Rense is no more an anti-semite than you are Dorothy and
Savage is Jewish. Bill.

Bill, don't you undestand that if you criticize Israel - You ARE an
anti-semite.

Aren't you considered an 'anti-anglite' if you criticize England? An
'anti-Italianite' if you criticize Italy? 'An anti-Germanite' if you
criticize Germany? How about all the recent 'anti-Gaulites' that
recently came out of the closet.

BTW, what do you call an anti-Arab? Is it an anti-Semantical Semite?

Or perhaps a racist anti-Arab would simply be called a Lukudite. flw

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