Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:20:17 -0400
Scott Palmer  wrote:

> > On Mar 14, 2018, at 3:01 AM, 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > There's a problem with this whole discussion. Participants are
> > mixing criticism of webapps with criticism of Desktop applications
> > which use a HTML5Component as their renderer. I don't know if I
> > should respond, because technologies like DukeScript or Electron do
> > not suffer from this browser compatibility problem. They ship their
> > own renderer/browser. Still we keep getting this.   
> 
> Because HTML5 is horrible to use as a rendering technology regardless
> of browser issues.  It is simply the wrong tool for the job.  It
> makes no sense to convert everything back to a form (HTML) that
> poorly expresses what you want to do.  The internet is full of “How
> can a get a layout like this…?” questions with regard to HTML.
> Followed by hack upon hack to try to make it work. If you use a
> proper GUI toolkit instead of a mutilated mark-up language, you just
> do it.

Everyone keeps forgetting that many used Flash for consistency where
HTML could not. Not to mention doing things you could not in
HTML/CSS/JS. Many things still trying to move from Flash to HTML5.
Other things are making no effort. Major things like Trustwave's
Trustkeeper for PCI Compliance, all in Flash
https://login.trustwave.com/portal-core/home

They are not doing anything that special, it could be done even before
HTML5 was a thing... One reason they may use Flash is consistency, and
not having to deal with browser quirks Though maybe also to prevent
people from hacking the HTML/JS in various pages. Like Java on Desktop,
you cannot easily manipulate compiled code

Any longtime web developer has had to make various CSS files to handle
issues in different browsers, wrote conditional JS code, based on DOM,
etc. Browsers and web develop is a freaking nightmare and has never
gotten better in decades Same page in different browsers on same OS
can look different. Same page on different OS can look different in
same browser

Its all garbage for UI IMHO. Anytime someone talks HTML/JS/CSS for UI I
stop listening right there I have been there, done that, wasted to
many hours of my life dealing with quirks...

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.


pgpeckMoCjUlA.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Scott Palmer]

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 3:01 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> There's a problem with this whole discussion. Participants are mixing 
> criticism of webapps with criticism of Desktop applications which use a 
> HTML5Component as their renderer. I don't know if I should respond, because 
> technologies like DukeScript or Electron do not suffer from this browser 
> compatibility problem. They ship their own renderer/browser. Still we keep 
> getting this. 

Because HTML5 is horrible to use as a rendering technology regardless of 
browser issues.  It is simply the wrong tool for the job.  It makes no sense to 
convert everything back to a form (HTML) that poorly expresses what you want to 
do.  The internet is full of “How can a get a layout like this…?” questions 
with regard to HTML. Followed by hack upon hack to try to make it work. If you 
use a proper GUI toolkit instead of a mutilated mark-up language, you just do 
it.

Scott


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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Timon Veenstra]

>
>
> To help us out of this situation and save Java as a programming language I
> dedicated my days to smoothing out interoperability between Java and
> JavaScript with the goal to reuse the most flexible and portable rendering
> system of these days: the browser. My work has already been donated to
> Apache, see: https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j - let's
> use it to build new features of NetBeans and other future Java desktop
> applications. Get started by reading Javadoc at
> http://bits.netbeans.org/html+java/
>
> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still
> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
> -jt
>

It's a clear call.
We would benefit from stepping on the same boat, whichever boat it is.

Although I like all the discussion around here, it seems more about the
course of this boat rather then offering an alternative one.

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

Hi Toni,

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 07:35 ,  wrote:

> Regarding the architecture: In a plain DukeScript application we're
> starting a normal Java process. This process starts a HTML5Renderer using a
> "Presenter", e.g embedded chromium. The task of the Presenter is to take
> care of the communication and make it transparent to the developer.


Thanks for the info, and you know I'm sold on this approach, at least for
some uses.

But a big question, which is what I'm trying to get to - do we have a
simple, Apache license compatible and robust way to build and deploy such a
thing cross platform?  And JavaFX doesn't count! ;-)  And if not, how do we
get there?

If we had that, and the tooling in the IDE using our own framework to do
that, I think we'd have a powerful (and unique?) offering amongst Java
IDE's.

Note that I'm mainly considering standalone applications built with the IDE
there - I think we need to separate that out a little from thoughts of the
future of the IDE, although it might help prove whether that approach is at
all feasible.

I'm less keen on the selective HTML-ifying of the IDE using JavaFX.  If
that's no longer shipped with the JDK but retains its current license we
may even have difficulties using what we have under Apache?

Regarding Web APIs, I agree with Sean that not every browser out there can
> handle it, but if you control the browser, you're way better off than with
> JavaFX 3D, because modern browser are using fast and well maintained
> rendering pipelines. Chrome, for example uses ANGLE to map commands to
> DirectX and OpenGL. I think tere were discussions about using ANGLE for
> javaFX as well to improve performance, but I haven't heard what came out of
> this.
>

That Web GL is faster than JavaFX doesn't entirely surprise me, but it's
also noticeably slower than using a direct OpenGL binding with JOGL or
LWJGL.  And at least the latter is also getting Vulkan support.

We do like our bloated abstractions in the Java world, but sometimes bare
metal is still the way to go! :-)

Best wishes,

Neil
-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Glenn Holmer]

On 03/13/2018 12:13 AM, cowwoc wrote:
> Web-based development is cool because everyone is jumping on board. It
> isn't cool because it's better. Every week there is a new framework. The
> level of cross-platform compatibility doesn't begin to compare to Java.
> You have portability problems across different browsers on the same
> operating system, not to mention different operating systems.

Very well said, totally agree.

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Wade Chandler]

> On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:04 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Wade,
> 
> I agree, desktop isn't going away. At DukeScript we're using HTML4J Apis 
> mainly for desktop applications. The Java Desktop Application is just using a 
> HTML5-Component ("browser") to render the view instead of a native or Java 
> rendering pipeline. 

How are events handled then? If you want to open a file as an example? Are you 
running the JVM as a separate service backend and using web services?

> 
> Since the separation of view and view logic is very clean the view technology 
> can be completely replaced. In some of our commercial projects we used 
> Controls4J to render the view, in others plain HTML and CSS. I've got working 
> prototypes that use native controls instead on iOS and Android. Even one that 
> renders to JavaFX that I sometimes use for debugging. 

That sounds pretty cool.

> 
> And unlike Swing or JavaFX browsers are evolving at great speed and getter 
> better day by day without any investment on our side. That's a great benefit 
> if you compare that to the sluggish development of Swing and JavaFX that 
> we've seen in the past years.  
> 

Perhaps, but I think one has to bind a product to a specific and embeddable 
browser for something like NB and NB RCP, or perhaps some custom Webkit. 
Relying on just anything seems like a lot to support at that level.

I figure if views themselves can be replaced, then technically we could have 
our own native views instead. We could do some things based on OpenGL or Vulkan 
https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/  or stay 
low-level yet remain in Java with LWJGL https://www.lwjgl.org 
, and not have any browser limitations. Here’s an 
example of an OpenGL based UI library https://github.com/wjakob/nanogui 

> I think that the stuff that Sean does with the crippled JavaFX 3D API is 
> amazing, but think about what he could do with a really good 3D API, like the 
> many that exist for WebGL. 
> 

I’ll let him speak more to this, but per his talks he tried different browser 
based 3D APIs, and the performance wasn’t there yet. Personally, I have seen a 
lot of WebGL components get the sad face uh oh in Chrome, and not be that 
stable; this on good hardware.

Wade

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 at 08:56  wrote:

> > We need a way to render Swing on a web browser canvas!
>
>  We were actually thinking about doing this using DukeScript a while ago
> to allow people to run their legacy applications. It would be doable.


Reminds me of this - http://demo.creamtec.com/ajaxswing/apps/SwingSet2


> But then we decided that it's much better if developers use a modern
> concept for UI Development like MVVM, otherwise we'll end up in a horrible
> niche as the only ones doing archaic Swing development in a world that has
> much better concepts for UI development.
>

Yep, still reminds me of this -
http://demo.creamtec.com/ajaxswing/apps/SwingSet2 ;-)

Best wishes,

Neil
-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Emilian Bold]

HTML4J goes the wrong way in providing a migration path.

We don't need new ways to embed components into Swing. We could already embed 
JavaFX stuff and now we can also embed HTML stuff (rendered by JavaFX).

We need a way to render Swing on a web browser canvas!

Then, after Swing is fully in the browser we can decide that instead of having 
a canvas there just replace that topcomponent rectangle area with a div.

So, for new apps HTML4J makes more sense.

For NetBeans HTML4J only makes sense if we start a multi-year process of slowly 
migrating to HTML4J and then, in the far future, realise we migrated so much we 
might as well switch the whole main window from a JFrame to a browser tab.
  This plan would probably make sense in a corporation like Oracle, but will no 
do well under Apache, also because we would have our own technology stack that 
no contributor would use elsewhere. Mozilla also had XULRunner and people 
didn't really flock to it. 

--emi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 12 March 2018 5:59 PM, Jaroslav Tulach  wrote:

> > "Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java
> 
> > ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the above
> > 
> > > > > referenced timeframes."
> 
> The official announcement is here and people are finally starting to
> 
> realize the truth: There is no future for JavaFX, AWT and Swing. Nobody
> 
> will sponsor development of anything new for these technologies. Even if
> 
> they get transfered to their new owners, they will be in maintenance mode:
> 
> Bugfixes and little features. No bigger changes - no new rendering
> 
> pipelines using new nifty features of graphics cards. Just sustaining. I've
> 
> been explaining this would happen since 2012.
> 
> To help us out of this situation and save Java as a programming language I
> 
> dedicated my days to smoothing out interoperability between Java and
> 
> JavaScript with the goal to reuse the most flexible and portable rendering
> 
> system of these days: the browser. My work has already been donated to
> 
> Apache, see: https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j \- let's
> 
> use it to build new features of NetBeans and other future Java desktop
> 
> applications. Get started by reading Javadoc at
> 
> http://bits.netbeans.org/html+java/
> 
> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still
> 
> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
> 
> -jt



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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Tim Boudreau]

First - we're talking 8 years from now.  Eight years is a long time.  That
doesn't mean don't be ready for it, but it does mean don't panic.
Secondly, what it means is that Oracle doesn't plan to develop AWT and
Swing after that point.  That doesn't mean nobody will or could.

That said, the way AWT does graphics is optimized for the XWindows of the
90s, and does not play nicely with what modern graphics cards actually do
today.  That was really the promise of JavaFX in its final, neutered,
too-late form - a modern graphics pipeline.

Re Electron:  Think of what Electron actually *is* - it bundles *all* of
Chromium.  I feel this pain particularly since I run Gentoo and build my
entire system and all its software from source - Chromium builds lately
take about 5-7 hours (on a 3Ghz i7 with 8Gb and SSD!) - while nothing else
on my system takes more than a few minutes.  For a while I had Atom
installed, which uses Electron.  Building that from source added another 8
hours to every time I updated my system - turning what used to be an hour
or so to update everything into something akin to compiling the Linux
kernel on a 486 - check back tomorrow to see if it's done.

I also, using Gentoo and frequently MongoDB, lived through MongoDB's brief
dalliance with depending on and linking, then bundling, then getting rid of
v8 - and the big problem there was that v8's ABI was broken incompatibly
very regularly.  I expect Electron will suffer that pain as well, and
eventually go through some growing pains that likely result in forking what
they depend on, or writing their own replacement + vanilla WebKit or
something like that.  Not to mention that, both in terms of build times and
size, there will be pressure from people developing on it to please, please
make the gargantuan runtime smaller.  In other words, to do exactly the
same kind of splitting the JDK finally began to undergo with JDK 9.  Any
solves-all-your-desktop-application-problems platform is going to wind up
recapitulating a lot of the history of the Java platform.


I thought Oracle's effort to make NetBeans into a web-based IDE was likely
misguided - I don't want to program in a web browser and don't know anyone
who does, and doing that rules out using well, pick-any-unix-text-utility -
it's a huge step backwards in development tooling.  But I liked the idea
that it forced decoupling the functionality of the IDE from AWT and Swing,
so from that perspective it's goodness.

The only good I see out of doing the UI in HTML and Javascript is, finally,
a solution to blocking the UI on I/O, which is a bug baked so deeply into
NetBeans APIs it can't be eliminated without a separate UI layer on top of
the existing one.  I don't actually think it's a great way to go - for
anyone who wrote dynamic HTML with Javascript in the 90s or early 2000s,
how much of your code still works?  Browsers are a moving target in a way
Swing never was.

To my instincts, preferable would probably be some OpenGL-based toolkit for
the basic drawing and interaction support, and take it from there with a
small suite of custom components on top of that, in terms of
cost-of-maintenance and stability.  The brave new world of modern web
development - and I just spent a bunch of time working on a React project
(and spent a bunch of time patching a drag and drop library because Chrome
stopped allowing you to call consume() on touch events unless you do
something special when you register your listener - code which worked fine
a few months before) - doesn't really do backward compatibility - which
means keeping an HTML-based NetBeans actually working for users requires a
large, permanent ongoing investment of work that's more costly than
maintaining a handful of UI components where, once you have a button
component that works, it works forever.  I see the appeal of HTML in that
it's omnipresent, and at present looks like it's sucked all the air out of
the user interface room - but I also remember when Javascript was dead, and
when Windows had killed Unix.

-Tim

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[cowwoc]

Agreed.

People keep on saying that Oracle will support AWT/Swing for another 8 
years... Have you noticed what the last 8 years have been like? If this 
is the kind of "support" we can expect then they might as well spin it 
out the JDK like JavaFX.


The end result of this announcement is fragmentation, fragmentation, 
fragmentation. Instead of one half-baked technology, we'll end up with 
five of them and none of them will be as mature/stable as AWT/Swing. All 
the big players are walking away from client-side dvelopment, except for 
Microsoft. It's very sad to see.


Web-based development is cool because everyone is jumping on board. It 
isn't cool because it's better. Every week there is a new framework. The 
level of cross-platform compatibility doesn't begin to compare to Java. 
You have portability problems across different browsers on the same 
operating system, not to mention different operating systems. All in 
all, this is a huge step backward for the developer community.


Gili

On 2018-03-12 2:26 PM, Kenneth Fogel wrote:

As far as I can tell Swing and AWT were pretty much abandoned years ago except 
for maintenance.

Ken

-Original Message-
From: Matthias Bläsing [mailto:mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu]
Sent: March 12, 2018 1:37 PM
To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from 
Oracle JDK

Am Montag, den 12.03.2018, 17:26 + schrieb Neil C Smith:

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 17:12 Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote:


I really wouldn't be worried at all about something that will be
supported "through at least 2026".


In a public, freely available JDK?


I did not see Swing or AWT marked as deprecated in OpenJDK. So removal
at this point is out of the question. I doubt that Oracle will remove
the whole desktop module from their JDK, so even Oracle JDK will most
probably carry AWT+Swing.

My reading is a bit less *heaven will fall*:

  * The java plugin is dead (thanks go to the browser makers)
  * Java Web Start is mostly dead and was never open source. Interested
parties could place their money on Red Hat, which might have its
open source successor (Iced Tea Web)
  * JavaFX is not part of the Oracle JDK anymore
  * The future of Swing and AWT is not yet decided

To read more into the white-paper is just reading tea-leaves. It might
be fun, but the future is not told there.

Greetings

Matthias

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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Wade Chandler]

On Mar 12, 2018 11:59, "Jaroslav Tulach"  wrote:

> "Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java

> ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the above
 referenced timeframes."

>>>
>>
The official announcement is here and people are finally starting to
realize the truth: There is no future for JavaFX, AWT and Swing. Nobody
will sponsor development of anything new for these technologies. Even if
they get transfered to their new owners, they will be in maintenance mode:
Bugfixes and little features. No bigger changes - no new rendering
pipelines using new nifty features of graphics cards. Just sustaining. I've
been explaining this would happen since 2012.

To help us out of this situation and save Java as a programming language I
dedicated my days to smoothing out interoperability between Java and
JavaScript with the goal to reuse the most flexible and portable rendering
system of these days: the browser. My work has already been donated to
Apache, see: https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j - let's
use it to build new features of NetBeans and other future Java desktop
applications. Get started by reading Javadoc at
http://bits.netbeans.org/html+java/

Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still
care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!


Personally, I feel if that is true, then why all the hodgepodge, and why
not just Electron which is already driving window creation and interacting
with the desktop? Then, why not wasm and a real type safe language, and not
TypeScript nor JS? Or maybe just VS Code plugins?

Why use the browser for all that if there is a desktop need? I mean, is it
just me, or does that all just feel wrong?

Look at how many resources the Slack and VS Code apps need just running a
few simple things, and they exist how they are, and are successful because
people want to use the desktop app, and not tabs in their browsers. Then
there are all the tricks to access the file system indirectly.

I don't see the desktop app disappearing for specific types of
applications, and IMO that includes IDEs. Who wants to do all that work in
browser tabs? Nobody. Electron is a desktop app environment. It isn't a
container or a browser bound environment even if a browser is a component.

So what is the benefit of doing away with better rendering pipelines and
direct resource access just to wind up manipulating a slow and bloated DOM
in its place? Folks should checkout things Sean Phillips is doing with Java
FX inside NB RCP Swing.

I think IntelliJ shows that a successful Swing based product can be a
winner just as NetBeans has, and doesn't seem to be slowing down nor
changing directions. To me it seems more feasible to support Swing itself
for our needs, and continue making NB and NB RCP unique if we can be
involved. Otherwise, isn't it VS Code or Eclipse Che ideas, just far behind?

Wade

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Eirik Bakke]

All of Minecraft (acquired by Microsoft in 2014 for 2.5 
billion 
dollars)
 is written in Java, using LWJGL to access OpenGL. So 
even if Swing and AWT dies completely in 10 years, you can still use Java for 
high-performance desktop graphics applications.

And in fact, AWT & Java2D just got a brand new rendering pipeline: 
https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8131760

-- Eirik

On 3/12/18, 2:22 PM, "Kenneth Fogel" 
> wrote:

This is most distressing to me. You point out that "no new rendering pipelines 
using new nifty features of graphics cards". It implies that serious graphics 
application will need to be written in C/C++ and OpenGL. By my twisted logic it 
can also be said that EE is dead too because its been spun off to Eclipse.

Ken



-Original Message-
From: Jaroslav Tulach [mailto:jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com]
Sent: March 12, 2018 11:59 AM
To: Apache NetBeans 
>
Subject: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from 
Oracle JDK

"Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java

ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the above
referenced timeframes."



The official announcement is here and people are finally starting to realize 
the truth: There is no future for JavaFX, AWT and Swing. Nobody will sponsor 
development of anything new for these technologies. Even if they get transfered 
to their new owners, they will be in maintenance mode:
Bugfixes and little features. No bigger changes - no new rendering pipelines 
using new nifty features of graphics cards. Just sustaining. I've been 
explaining this would happen since 2012.

To help us out of this situation and save Java as a programming language I 
dedicated my days to smoothing out interoperability between Java and JavaScript 
with the goal to reuse the most flexible and portable rendering system of these 
days: the browser. My work has already been donated to Apache, see: 
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j - let's use it to build new 
features of NetBeans and other future Java desktop applications. Get started by 
reading Javadoc at http://bits.netbeans.org/html+java/

Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still care 
about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
-jt

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

Hi,

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 21:52 ,  wrote:

> No, Electron is not involved so far, although it probably would work. On
> most of our supported platforms we have a "real" Java application talk to
> JavaScript via a Java-JavaScript Bridge. Similar to what you can do in a
> JavaFX application with the WebView, but with a nice typesafe API. One of
> the benefits is that we can make use of the full Java core APIs. The Vaadin
> example Java presumably is transpiled to js and limited to the very basic
> Java API GWT supports.
>

No, it's mainly a real Java application, with just the actual UI layer
display and interaction in JS/CEF. It's basically running both sides of a
Vaadin client/server web application locally via Electron. Rather
heavyweight way to do it, perhaps! On the other hand the open source
nature, active development and distribution framework of Electron make it
potentially an attractive option for mixed Java/HTML applications.

Best wishes,

Neil


-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Chuck Davis]

I can't be the only person who has noticed that jdk8 had 15 HTML
classes/interfaces and jdk9 has 74 HTML classes/interfaces?  Does this tell
us something?  Sure looks to me like HTML is coming to Java in a big way.

Is there anything a browser can render that Java cannot render?  If so,
what is the point of all the HTML creeping into Java?

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Kenneth Fogel <kfo...@dawsoncollege.qc.ca>
wrote:

> As far as I can tell Swing and AWT were pretty much abandoned years ago
> except for maintenance.
>
> Ken
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Matthias Bläsing [mailto:mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu]
> Sent: March 12, 2018 1:37 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX
> from Oracle JDK
>
> Am Montag, den 12.03.2018, 17:26 + schrieb Neil C Smith:
> > On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 17:12 Geertjan Wielenga <
> > geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I really wouldn't be worried at all about something that will be
> > > supported "through at least 2026".
> > >
> >
> > In a public, freely available JDK?
> >
>
> I did not see Swing or AWT marked as deprecated in OpenJDK. So removal
> at this point is out of the question. I doubt that Oracle will remove
> the whole desktop module from their JDK, so even Oracle JDK will most
> probably carry AWT+Swing.
>
> My reading is a bit less *heaven will fall*:
>
>  * The java plugin is dead (thanks go to the browser makers)
>  * Java Web Start is mostly dead and was never open source. Interested
>parties could place their money on Red Hat, which might have its
>open source successor (Iced Tea Web)
>  * JavaFX is not part of the Oracle JDK anymore
>  * The future of Swing and AWT is not yet decided
>
> To read more into the white-paper is just reading tea-leaves. It might
> be fun, but the future is not told there.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

RE: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Kenneth Fogel]

As far as I can tell Swing and AWT were pretty much abandoned years ago except 
for maintenance.

Ken

-Original Message-
From: Matthias Bläsing [mailto:mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu] 
Sent: March 12, 2018 1:37 PM
To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from 
Oracle JDK

Am Montag, den 12.03.2018, 17:26 + schrieb Neil C Smith:
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 17:12 Geertjan Wielenga < 
> geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I really wouldn't be worried at all about something that will be 
> > supported "through at least 2026".
> > 
> 
> In a public, freely available JDK?
> 

I did not see Swing or AWT marked as deprecated in OpenJDK. So removal
at this point is out of the question. I doubt that Oracle will remove
the whole desktop module from their JDK, so even Oracle JDK will most
probably carry AWT+Swing.

My reading is a bit less *heaven will fall*:

 * The java plugin is dead (thanks go to the browser makers)
 * Java Web Start is mostly dead and was never open source. Interested
   parties could place their money on Red Hat, which might have its
   open source successor (Iced Tea Web)
 * JavaFX is not part of the Oracle JDK anymore
 * The future of Swing and AWT is not yet decided

To read more into the white-paper is just reading tea-leaves. It might
be fun, but the future is not told there.

Greetings

Matthias

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RE: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Kenneth Fogel]

This is most distressing to me. You point out that "no new rendering pipelines 
using new nifty features of graphics cards". It implies that serious graphics 
application will need to be written in C/C++ and OpenGL. By my twisted logic it 
can also be said that EE is dead too because its been spun off to Eclipse. 

Ken

 


-Original Message-
From: Jaroslav Tulach [mailto:jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com] 
Sent: March 12, 2018 11:59 AM
To: Apache NetBeans 
Subject: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from 
Oracle JDK

> "Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java

> ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the above
 referenced timeframes."

>>>
>>
The official announcement is here and people are finally starting to realize 
the truth: There is no future for JavaFX, AWT and Swing. Nobody will sponsor 
development of anything new for these technologies. Even if they get transfered 
to their new owners, they will be in maintenance mode:
Bugfixes and little features. No bigger changes - no new rendering pipelines 
using new nifty features of graphics cards. Just sustaining. I've been 
explaining this would happen since 2012.

To help us out of this situation and save Java as a programming language I 
dedicated my days to smoothing out interoperability between Java and JavaScript 
with the goal to reuse the most flexible and portable rendering system of these 
days: the browser. My work has already been donated to Apache, see: 
https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j - let's use it to build new 
features of NetBeans and other future Java desktop applications. Get started by 
reading Javadoc at http://bits.netbeans.org/html+java/

Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still care 
about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
-jt

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

Hi Toni,

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 17:51  wrote:

> At DukeScript (http://dukescript.com) we have plenty of HTML4J renderers
> other than JavaFX (Chromium via JXBrowser, ios WebView via Multi OS Engine
> and MobiVM, Android WebView, plain Webkit, Instrumented Browser...) and we
> can even run inside the browser itself with bck2brws &, TeaVM.
>

So, out of interest, do those renderers or any experiments include
Electron?  After the last conversation on here that touched on this, and
JCEF, etc. I came across this https://github.com/jreznot/electron-java-app
and a related blog post.  I keep trying to find some time to experiment
with Apache HTML/Java and wondered at the feasibility of reworking that
Electron example with it?

Best wishes,

Neil
-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 17:36 Matthias Bläsing 
wrote:

> My reading is a bit less *heaven will fall*:
> ...
>  * The future of Swing and AWT is not yet decided
>

Same here!  And I agree with you.  That document doesn't say anything about
post-J2SE 11.  I'm questioning the idea that people keep quoting that as if
J2SE 11 will be freely, publicly supported until 2026.  Great if it is, but
someone really should tell Azul's marketing team! ;-)

Neil
-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Matthias Bläsing]

Am Montag, den 12.03.2018, 17:26 + schrieb Neil C Smith:
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 17:12 Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I really wouldn't be worried at all about something that will be
> > supported
> > "through at least 2026".
> > 
> 
> In a public, freely available JDK?
> 

I did not see Swing or AWT marked as deprecated in OpenJDK. So removal
at this point is out of the question. I doubt that Oracle will remove
the whole desktop module from their JDK, so even Oracle JDK will most
probably carry AWT+Swing.

My reading is a bit less *heaven will fall*:

 * The java plugin is dead (thanks go to the browser makers)
 * Java Web Start is mostly dead and was never open source. Interested
   parties could place their money on Red Hat, which might have its
   open source successor (Iced Tea Web)
 * JavaFX is not part of the Oracle JDK anymore
 * The future of Swing and AWT is not yet decided

To read more into the white-paper is just reading tea-leaves. It might
be fun, but the future is not told there.

Greetings

Matthias

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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 17:12 Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I really wouldn't be worried at all about something that will be supported
> "through at least 2026".
>

In a public, freely available JDK?

Best wishes,

Neil
-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Gonzalo Ortiz Jaureguizar]

2018-03-12 18:21 GMT+01:00 Zoran Sevarac :

>
> I understood that the same way. Thats 8 yrs from now, and till that time
> JavaScript will hopefully die :)
>

Or maybe Panama finally reach the JDK and it is easy to use Qt

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Bernd Ruehlicke]

Indeed, lets look forward, I have not looked at JavaScript as always 
being into heavy desktop Swing apps. Over the years it has helped me 
with a demo app showing all kind of features a given system allows me to 
use. Like a toolbox, which I run and say - hey that's the component I 
need. Is there something like this for the HTML+JAVA api ? Or some 
websites showing the current func?


Jaroslav, thanks for also looking forward and suggesting a way out of 
this swamp ... I will start looking into this.

Bernd

On 3/12/2018 10:59 AM, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:

"Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java
ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the above

referenced timeframes."


The official announcement is here and people are finally starting to
realize the truth: There is no future for JavaFX, AWT and Swing. Nobody
will sponsor development of anything new for these technologies. Even if
they get transfered to their new owners, they will be in maintenance mode:
Bugfixes and little features. No bigger changes - no new rendering
pipelines using new nifty features of graphics cards. Just sustaining. I've
been explaining this would happen since 2012.

To help us out of this situation and save Java as a programming language I
dedicated my days to smoothing out interoperability between Java and
JavaScript with the goal to reuse the most flexible and portable rendering
system of these days: the browser. My work has already been donated to
Apache, see: https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j - let's
use it to build new features of NetBeans and other future Java desktop
applications. Get started by reading Javadoc at
http://bits.netbeans.org/html+java/

Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still
care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
-jt

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Zoran Sevarac]

>
> as far as I can see, there's nothing about end of awt or swing support:
> "Oracle will continue developing Swing and AWT in Java SE 8 and Java SE 11
> (18.9 LTS). This means they will be supported by Oracle through at least
> 2026."
>

I understood that the same way. Thats 8 yrs from now, and till that time
JavaScript will hopefully die :)

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Peter Nabbefeld]

Hi,

as far as I can see, there's nothing about end of awt or swing support:
"Oracle will continue developing Swing and AWT in Java SE 8 and Java SE 
11 (18.9 LTS). This means they will be supported by Oracle through at 
least 2026."


Kind regards
Peter



Am 12.03.2018 um 16:59 schrieb Jaroslav Tulach:

"Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java
ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the above

referenced timeframes."


The official announcement is here and people are finally starting to
realize the truth: There is no future for JavaFX, AWT and Swing. Nobody
will sponsor development of anything new for these technologies. Even if
they get transfered to their new owners, they will be in maintenance mode:
Bugfixes and little features. No bigger changes - no new rendering
pipelines using new nifty features of graphics cards. Just sustaining. I've
been explaining this would happen since 2012.

To help us out of this situation and save Java as a programming language I
dedicated my days to smoothing out interoperability between Java and
JavaScript with the goal to reuse the most flexible and portable rendering
system of these days: the browser. My work has already been donated to
Apache, see: https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans-html4j - let's
use it to build new features of NetBeans and other future Java desktop
applications. Get started by reading Javadoc at
http://bits.netbeans.org/html+java/

Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still
care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
-jt




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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Peter Nabbefeld]

Ouch - just answered to the thread, but used the wrong article to 
respond, sorry.



Regards
P.


Am 12.03.2018 um 18:12 schrieb Geertjan Wielenga:

Well, when I read the blog below from Oracle's Donald Smith, in charge of
all Java things, Swing isn't even mentioned, i.e., it is all about JavaFX:

https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/the-future-of-javafx-and-other-java-client-roadmap-updates

That means for AWT and Swing, everything is as it always has been, i.e.,
the status quo continues, which is fine, and then read the official PDF
announcement...

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/javaclientroadmapupdate2018mar-4414431.pdf

...which ends with these words:

"Oracle will continue developing Swing and AWT in Java SE 8 and Java SE 11
(18.9 LTS). This means they will be supported by Oracle through at least
2026."

I really wouldn't be worried at all about something that will be supported
"through at least 2026".

Gj



On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Matthias Bläsing 

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Geertjan Wielenga]

Well, when I read the blog below from Oracle's Donald Smith, in charge of
all Java things, Swing isn't even mentioned, i.e., it is all about JavaFX:

https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/the-future-of-javafx-and-other-java-client-roadmap-updates

That means for AWT and Swing, everything is as it always has been, i.e.,
the status quo continues, which is fine, and then read the official PDF
announcement...

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/javaclientroadmapupdate2018mar-4414431.pdf

...which ends with these words:

"Oracle will continue developing Swing and AWT in Java SE 8 and Java SE 11
(18.9 LTS). This means they will be supported by Oracle through at least
2026."

I really wouldn't be worried at all about something that will be supported
"through at least 2026".

Gj



On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Matthias Bläsing  wrote:

> Hey,
>
> Am Montag, den 12.03.2018, 16:59 +0100 schrieb Jaroslav Tulach:
> > > "Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java
> > > ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the
> > > above
> > > > > > referenced timeframes."
> > > > > >
> >
> > Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
> > still
> > care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>
> Funfact: Without JavaFX you don't have a HTML5 renderer in the core
> JDK. So the only thing that could run your HTML/Java API is removed by
> Oracle.
>
> BTW: Swing was declared dead as often as Java itself. And just wonder
> it is still here.
>
> If this path is followed, I'll reconsider the IDE that is build on-top
> of SWT.
>
> Greetings
>
> Matthias
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Peter Nabbefeld]

Hi,

has everybody discussing here actually read the document ("Java Client 
Roadmap Update")?


There's nothing about end of awt or swing support:
"Oracle will continue developing Swing and AWT in Java SE 8 and Java SE 
11 (18.9 LTS). This means they will be supported by Oracle through at 
least 2026."


Only JFX will be removed in Java 11 - but, of course, they can still 
change their mind ...


Kind regards
Peter



Am 12.03.2018 um 18:06 schrieb Matthias Bläsing:

Hey,

Am Montag, den 12.03.2018, 16:59 +0100 schrieb Jaroslav Tulach:

"Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java
ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the
above

referenced timeframes."


Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
still
care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!

Funfact: Without JavaFX you don't have a HTML5 renderer in the core
JDK. So the only thing that could run your HTML/Java API is removed by
Oracle.

BTW: Swing was declared dead as often as Java itself. And just wonder
it is still here.

If this path is followed, I'll reconsider the IDE that is build on-top
of SWT.

Greetings

Matthias

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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Matthias Bläsing]

Hey,

Am Montag, den 12.03.2018, 16:59 +0100 schrieb Jaroslav Tulach:
> > "Oracle has begun conversations with interested parties in the Java
> > ecosystem on the stewardship of JavaFX, Swing and AWT beyond the
> > above
> > > > > referenced timeframes."
> > > > > 
> 
> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
> still
> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!

Funfact: Without JavaFX you don't have a HTML5 renderer in the core
JDK. So the only thing that could run your HTML/Java API is removed by
Oracle.

BTW: Swing was declared dead as often as Java itself. And just wonder
it is still here.

If this path is followed, I'll reconsider the IDE that is build on-top
of SWT.

Greetings

Matthias

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Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 16:33 John Kostaras  wrote:

> If this is the case with the Java kingdom, then all these apps will move to
> other technologies that take advantage of the new hardware and the GPUs.
>

The Java kingdom does have quite a few of these things outside of the JDK
though.  That's why I said I don't think it's the only game in town.  There
are certain things that need that low-level hardware / GPU access,
including the things I work on myself and for others.   Not a lot of that
has anything to do with AWT / Swing, doesn't need to be in the JDK, and is
probably better off without AWT around (looking at you OSX /
startOnFirstThread!)

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 16:37 Peter Steele  wrote:

> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem to be
> a much better solution than having a html front end.


Eclipse is also building an IDE with a HTML front end! ;-)

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 16:40 Christian Lenz  wrote:

> Have a look into electron apps. A lot of apps are written with this
> Framework like VS Code and I think this is a big Player and you can see,
> that it performs very well and it is performant as hell.
>

Mind you, I've spent a lot of the last couple of weeks in conversation with
people complaining about the performance and resource usage of Electron
apps too, including the coding environments!

Best wishes,

Neil

-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Peter Steele]

And there is Apache pivot, being Apache maybe we could get help in any
migration if that was the path chosen

On 12 Mar 2018 16:39, "Peter Steele"  wrote:

> To be clear (which i wasn't) i meant eclipse RCP is pretty popular, it
> uses swt as it's foundation. Could netbeans use swt as it's foundations too?
>
> On 12 Mar 2018 16:36, "Peter Steele"  wrote:
>
>> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem to
>> be a much better solution than having a html front end.
>>
>> On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith"  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
>>> still
>>> > care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>>> >
>>>
>>> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting JavaFX,
>>> and
>>> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually happens
>>> there).  I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but for a lot of
>>> things it's probably the right way forward.
>>>
>>> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>>>
>>> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin running
>>> inside Electron recently.  Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Neil
>>> --
>>> Neil C Smith
>>> Artist & Technologist
>>> www.neilcsmith.net
>>>
>>> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>>>
>>

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Peter Steele]

To be clear (which i wasn't) i meant eclipse RCP is pretty popular, it uses
swt as it's foundation. Could netbeans use swt as it's foundations too?

On 12 Mar 2018 16:36, "Peter Steele"  wrote:

> What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem to be
> a much better solution than having a html front end.
>
> On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith"  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
>> still
>> > care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>> >
>>
>> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting JavaFX,
>> and
>> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually happens
>> there).  I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but for a lot of
>> things it's probably the right way forward.
>>
>> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>>
>> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin running
>> inside Electron recently.  Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>> --
>> Neil C Smith
>> Artist & Technologist
>> www.neilcsmith.net
>>
>> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>>
>

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Peter Steele]

What about the eclipse RCP framework which uses swt? This would seem to be
a much better solution than having a html front end.

On 12 Mar 2018 16:25, "Neil C Smith"  wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach 
> wrote:
>
> > Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
> still
> > care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
> >
>
> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting JavaFX, and
> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually happens
> there).  I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but for a lot of
> things it's probably the right way forward.
>
> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>
> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin running
> inside Electron recently.  Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil C Smith
> Artist & Technologist
> www.neilcsmith.net
>
> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[John Kostaras]

All very nice with HTML UI and the browser, but what about standalone apps
that need near real time performance. They cannot count on the browser and
on Javascript I 'm afraid. They need Swing and/or JavaFX or something
similar.

If this is the case with the Java kingdom, then all these apps will move to
other technologies that take advantage of the new hardware and the GPUs.

Regards,

John.

On 12 March 2018 at 17:25, Neil C Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach 
> wrote:
>
> > Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you
> still
> > care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
> >
>
> Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting JavaFX, and
> probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually happens
> there).  I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but for a lot of
> things it's probably the right way forward.
>
> But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?
>
> Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin running
> inside Electron recently.  Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil C Smith
> Artist & Technologist
> www.neilcsmith.net
>
> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>

Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFX from Oracle JDK

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 at 15:59 Jaroslav Tulach 
wrote:

> Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you still
> care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API!
>

Generally inclined to agree with you - definitely on forgetting JavaFX, and
probably on forgetting AWT/Swing (intrigued to see what actually happens
there).  I don't think HTML is the only game in town, but for a lot of
things it's probably the right way forward.

But, if we start turning to Apache HTML/Java way, what does it run in?

Out of interest, I was looking at an example project using Vaadin running
inside Electron recently.  Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java?

Best wishes,

Neil
-- 
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net

Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org