Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

The master branch for cp now defaults to copy-on-write on filesystems that support reflinks, which should make copies more efficient if Fedora starts using btrfs: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/commit/?id=25725f9d41735d176d73a757430739fb71c7d043. Dolphin and KIO also seem like the

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/26/20 2:22 PM, Przemek Klosowski via devel wrote: Even though technically dnf system-upgrade can --download-dir to a location off / it doesn't seem to work with the actual upgrade, so the only way I know is to delete largest packages (flightGear*, piglit*, KiCAD*, ...) and reinstall them a

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> You didn't make a mistake. Pretty sure it's a blocker bug too so I've > proposed it as such. Thank you for doing that, I appreciate it. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproje

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Thanks for the reply Justin, but that doesn't answer my two concerns which I reposted earlier. I don't believe the questions I asked were unreasonable for something we're making a distribution default, regardless of spin, and they shouldn't be hard questions to answer. Everyone knows that if BTRF

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 09:59:52 -0700, you wrote: >Has that actually been explored? How does Canonical get around the legal >issues with OpenZFS' licensing? For a start they aren't a US company, and unlike Red Hat they aren't the same tempting target for a lawsuit. _

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:50 PM Tom Seewald wrote: > > > The context of that is: the default when the user does not specify. If > > the user chooses 'raid1' in the installer, they get 'raid1' for both > > data and metadata. > This does not seem to be the case, and from what I can tell Garry experi

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:17 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:30 PM Chris Murphy wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: >> >> > Why would we be installing something by default that has widely known >> > broken functionality? >> >> Because the

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> The context of that is: the default when the user does not specify. If > the user chooses 'raid1' in the installer, they get 'raid1' for both > data and metadata. This does not seem to be the case, and from what I can tell Garry experienced this problem as well. I tested this in a VM with two d

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:11 PM Tom Seewald wrote: > > > For btrfs, it's raid0 data, raid1 metadata. > Surely this is considered a serious installer bug? Users who choose an option > called "raid1" with btrfs would, and should, expect to have data redundancy. The context of that is: the default

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> For btrfs, it's raid0 data, raid1 metadata. Surely this is considered a serious installer bug? Users who choose an option called "raid1" with btrfs would, and should, expect to have data redundancy. Even if this bug has existed for a long time, it doesn't make it any less dangerous. __

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:25 PM Antti wrote: > > However the most commendable thing he wrote here is the part where he > honestly admits that they also do have many real data loss bugs in btrfs and > wishes that people would not spread rumors of non-existential ones. I asked him about the "have

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> And you are taking his quote out of the context, which is in the message > you quote: the false / unsupported claim of data loss. > That context includes that he trusts Btrfs more than other file > systems, and he's been using Btrfs in production all day long for a > long time now. By all means

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On So, 28.06.20 11:15, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:39 AM Gabriel Ramirez wrote: > > > > On 6/27/20 11:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:25 PM Gabriel Ramirez > > > wrote: > > >> On 6/27/20 9:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Thanks for the response, but you talked around my two main questions without addressing them. Chris asked to "state it clearly" so I put my main questions after the ===>. I've reposted that initial reply in full, and then I responded to your specific comments. I have no problems with BTRFS being

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:15:01AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:39 AM Gabriel Ramirez wrote: > > > > On 6/27/20 11:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:25 PM Gabriel Ramirez > > > wrote: > > >> On 6/27/20 9:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > >>> > > >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:39 AM Gabriel Ramirez wrote: > > On 6/27/20 11:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:25 PM Gabriel Ramirez wrote: > >> On 6/27/20 9:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > >>> > >>> Just a PSA: btrfs raid1 does not have a concept of automatic degraded > >>> moun

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Friday, June 26, 2020 8:22:49 AM MST Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:15:24AM -0400, Michael Watters wrote: > > > Why not zfs? > > > We cannot include ZFS in Fedora for legal reasons. Additionally, ZFS is not > really intended for the laptop use case. Has that actually been

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:56 AM Antti wrote: > > "We have far too many real data loss bugs in btrfs already." > > Source: > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-btrfs/20200619050402.gn10...@hungrycats.org/ Zygo Blaxell is a linux-btrfs@ list and #btrfs channel regular, and contributor to the kernel. And

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 3:21:17 AM MST Antti wrote: > Hello, > > I'm in total opposition to this proposal as a long-time Fedora user. The > btrfs is unstable and not ready for production. Most of what I'm about to > write is admittedly anecdotal but it's the only file system in Linux which > has

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:04 AM Tom Seewald wrote: > > > I'm not sure where it is in the priority list. > > > > If you're doing a preemptive replace, there's no degraded state. Even > > if there's a crash during this replace, all devices are present, so > > it'll boot normally. The difficulty is

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:05 am, Stasiek Michalski wrote: There is no gui for basically anything btrfs related anywhere, since SUSE has had close to 0 interest in desktop for around 10 years. Since I heard there is nobody maintaining gnome-disk-utility, I might have some motivation to help

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 8:58 pm, Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: Btw, I should also add here: it may be clear that in ideal situtation BTRFS will always be slower than non-COW file systems. The problem however, it is not even on par with the other open-source COW file system, which is ZFS. Setti

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 08:06:26PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > Just a PSA: btrfs raid1 does not have a concept of automatic degraded > mount in the face of a device failure. By default systemd will not > even attempt to mount it if devices are missing. And it's not advised > to use 'degraded' moun

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:25 pm, Gerald B. Cox wrote: Making something the default is a high bar to clear. There needs to be a compelling reason why? The things listed in the proposal may be nice for some people, but the uninformed masses don't care. There is a large list of benefits, liste

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> This has happened to me because OpenSUSE and Jolla's Sailfish OS use btrfs as > their > default file system. I've tried using btrfs from time to time in various > environments > to see how it's progressing. However there hasn't been fixes for long-standing > issues in btrfs when it comes to des

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Sun, 2020-06-28 at 10:21 +, Antti wrote: > Hello, > > I'm in total opposition to this proposal as a long-time Fedora user. > The btrfs is unstable and not ready for production. Most of what I'm > about to write is admittedly anecdotal but it'

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> Yes, BtrFs was very unstable, but before. Every software has this process. > I have talked to one of the maintainer of BtrFs, she thinks that BtrFs > is ready to production usage. (few years before, she is strongly > against using BtrFs for production purpose). It's true that every piece of soft

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

And to add, since zfs can't be supported by Fedora by now, the only filesystem that can identify file corruption and bit flip in your memory. So, if btrfs is stable enough, this will be absolutely a benefit to users. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Yes, BtrFs was very unstable, but before. Every software has this process. I have talked to one of the maintainer of BtrFs, she thinks that BtrFs is ready to production usage. (few years before, she is strongly against using BtrFs for production purpose). But after all, this is an open-topic we sh

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

If this change will be accepted I think need to modify anaconda partition dialog for BTRFS scheme. It has difficult and not obvious behavior when user want to change automatically created partition scheme and resize BTRFS volumes. See this bugreport https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18512

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Hello, I'm in total opposition to this proposal as a long-time Fedora user. The btrfs is unstable and not ready for production. Most of what I'm about to write is admittedly anecdotal but it's the only file system in Linux which has actively and regularly caused me to lose data on desktops, lap

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

OpenZFS is frequently lagging behind in support for newer kernels which would work against Fedora's "rolling" approach to kernel releases. Proxmox and Ubuntu don't feature rolling kernel releases. That's why they can ship OpenZFS (without legal problems, btw). ___

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/20 11:09 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:25 PM Gabriel Ramirez wrote: On 6/27/20 9:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: Just a PSA: btrfs raid1 does not have a concept of automatic degraded mount in the face of a device failure. By default systemd will not even attempt to moun

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> I'm not sure where it is in the priority list. > > If you're doing a preemptive replace, there's no degraded state. Even > if there's a crash during this replace, all devices are present, so > it'll boot normally. The difficulty is if a drive has died, and > there's a reboot before a replace has

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:47 AM Chris Murphy wrote: > > Other work is needed in this area, for example installations on UEFI > don't automatically create two EFI system partitions, so there aren't > two bootloaders or NVRAM entries. There's a hack/workaround that > upstream linux-raid@ doesn't li

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/20 2:08 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:01 PM Josef Bacik > wrote: On 6/27/20 4:53 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > ... > production workloads.  People then mention Facebook uses it... but my > understanding is that Fa

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:40 PM Tom Seewald wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 7:32 PM Garry T. Williams > > > > > > > Just a PSA: btrfs raid1 does not have a concept of automatic degraded > > mount in the face of a device failure. By default systemd will not > > even attempt to mount it if de

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:25 PM Gabriel Ramirez wrote: > > On 6/27/20 9:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 7:32 PM Garry T. Williams > > wrote: > >> On Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:29:23 EDT Chris Murphy wrote: > >>> For btrfs, it is either 'single' or 'raid0' profile for data,

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/26/20 8:23 AM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:42:25AM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: Boot on Btrfs ... When going with btrfs /boot, you can forego separate partition and just make a /boot subvolume in main pool. Advantage: fewer partitions. Disadvantages: using en

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 7:32 PM Garry T. Williams wrote: > > > Just a PSA: btrfs raid1 does not have a concept of automatic degraded > mount in the face of a device failure. By default systemd will not > even attempt to mount it if devices are missing. Is this hopefully seen by upstream as a

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 8:05 PM Stasiek Michalski wrote: > > Can you elaborate on the sorts of reasons you'd need the pre rolled > back versus the post? I imagine one is more common to use as a > rollback than the other. Post is usually used when something else goes wrong with the system, outs

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/20 9:06 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 7:32 PM Garry T. Williams wrote: On Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:29:23 EDT Chris Murphy wrote: For btrfs, it is either 'single' or 'raid0' profile for data, but 'raid1' for metadata (the file system itself). I need to test it or may

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 8:05 PM Stasiek Michalski wrote: > > Yeah, some mistakes were made when handling the root size, some other > issues with openQA when trying to fix it, Richard Brown had fun couple > of weeks with that stuff, but it was all worth the effort. We didn't > change much with how

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

As a Fedora user I would like to throw my 2 cents in from my personal experience and say I support this proposal. I've used btrfs on a home NAS since Fedora 25 (now running F32) without any issues. The ability to resize the filesystem and change RAID levels has been super beneficial but the abi

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 7:32 PM Garry T. Williams wrote: > > On Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:29:23 EDT Chris Murphy wrote: > > For btrfs, it is either 'single' or 'raid0' profile for data, but > > 'raid1' for metadata (the file system itself). > > > > I need to test it or maybe someone beats me to it

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:47 PM Stasiek Michalski wrote: > > I wonder to what degree some of the problems, especially enospc bugs, > were exacerbated by a somewhat small root for btrfs combined with a > fairly aggressive snapshotting regime by default? I agree with the > "shoot the messenger" p

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/26/20 11:14 AM, niccolo.be...@linuxsystems.it wrote: I couldn't believe it either when I saw the proposal, so 2010-ish :) Anyway I'm in great favour of this proposal and I'd love to see btrfs the default. Glad to hear! My biggest complain nowadays is this: https://lwn.net/Articles/6748

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:29:23 EDT Chris Murphy wrote: > For btrfs, it is either 'single' or 'raid0' profile for data, but > 'raid1' for metadata (the file system itself). > > I need to test it or maybe someone beats me to it by looking at the > code. But either way it's equal to or better tha

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:04 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > But if you can state clearly why it isn't persuasive in a way anyone > could possibly answer, I'm sure someone will try. And it would help > improve the proposal. > Making something the default is a high bar to clear. There needs to be a c

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:47 PM Stasiek Michalski wrote: > > > On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 22:59 +, Stasiek Michalski wrote: > > > > (Hi LCP I hope life is good) > > That's great to hear, just a few questions. > > Lately, how would you rate that in number of years? > > The change to partitioning occ

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/2020 7:32 PM, Gary Buhrmaster wrote: On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 2:46 PM Ben Cotton wrote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/BtrfsByDefault A few claims (without justification): There is no "average" Fedora user. There is no "average" Fedora system. fedoraproject.org Indeed not.

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 22:59 +, Stasiek Michalski wrote: > > (Hi LCP I hope life is good) > That's great to hear, just a few questions. > Lately, how would you rate that in number of years? The change to partitioning occurred in November of 2018 iirc, so it's over 1.5 years > While you seem

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 4:30 PM Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: > > On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 12:42 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b-y2WVrQK4ijo1TS5aRe0QROSf8CU3ckTiPQ_8evGR0/edit#gid=0 > > What point are you trying to make here? If you're implying that "applications

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 2:46 PM Ben Cotton wrote: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/BtrfsByDefault > A few claims (without justification): There is no "average" Fedora user. There is no "average" Fedora system. There is also no "average" workload on the (non) average system (some peop

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 4:16 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:30 PM Chris Murphy wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: >> >> > Why would we be installing something by default that has widely known >> > broken functionality? >> >> Because the

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 22:59 +, Stasiek Michalski wrote: > > On 27 June 2020 17:55:09 CEST, Chris Murphy > > > > > The actual data I will never ever be able to share. I have ended my > > time at that > > particular company but even when I was there I was not permitted to > > share such data. O

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> On 27 June 2020 17:55:09 CEST, Chris Murphy wrote: > > The actual data I will never ever be able to share. I have ended my time at > that > particular company but even when I was there I was not permitted to share > such data. Or > did you mean data from openSUSE and Arch? > Just have a look

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 13:34 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 11:59 AM Konstantin Kharlamov > wrote: > > On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 17:00 +0300, Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: > > > Another reason worth mentioning: BTRFS per se is slow. If you look at > > > benchmarks > > > on Phoronix

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 12:42 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 8:01 AM Konstantin Kharlamov > wrote: > > I see no one mentined yet: BTRFS is slow on HDDs. It trivially comes from > > BTRFS > > being COW. So if you changed a bit in a file, BTRFS will copy a block (or > > maybe > >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:30 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > Why would we be installing something by default that has widely known > broken functionality? > > Because the default configuration we're using isn't broken and is > better than the a

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 3:29 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > For btrfs, it is either 'single' or 'raid0' profile for data, but > 'raid1' for metadata (the file system itself). > > I need to test it or maybe someone beats me to it by looking at the > code. But either way it's equal to or better than the

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:53 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > Isn't the proposal talking about BTRFS as a default for workstations? Are > you saying that Anaconda is just going to check to see if a PC has only one > hard drive and then install BTRFS there, but if it has two devices use > something e

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

I highly oppose to this change, Btrfs was just an empty promise from the start to be the future of linux filesystems but never did get there, it's slower than traditional filesystems and I found it buggy. I'm betting on bcachefs as the next gen fs, no one seem to have mentioned that here, I thi

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:01 PM Josef Bacik wrote: > On 6/27/20 4:53 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Murphy > > wrote: > > > > > > The proposal has nothing to do with raid56, let alone by default. The > > installe

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/20 4:53 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Murphy > wrote: The proposal has nothing to do with raid56, let alone by default. The installer doesn't offer it as an option. And it's not relevant to the desktop. We'r

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > The proposal has nothing to do with raid56, let alone by default. The > installer doesn't offer it as an option. And it's not relevant to the > desktop. We're talking about single device btrfs file systems. > > Isn't the proposal talking ab

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 1:38 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > I was an early adopter and used BTRFS for many years, singing its praises. I > was particularly interested in the RAID capabilities. Then in 2016 the bomb > was dropped that: > > "It turns out the RAID5 and RAID6 code for the Btrfs file-

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 12:37 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > I was an early adopter and used BTRFS for many years, singing its > praises. > I was particularly interested in the RAID capabilities. Then in 2016 > the > bomb was dropped that: > > "It tur

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

I was an early adopter and used BTRFS for many years, singing its praises. I was particularly interested in the RAID capabilities. Then in 2016 the bomb was dropped that: "It turns out the RAID5 and RAID6 code for the Btrfs file-system's built-in RAID support is faulty and users should not be mak

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 11:59 AM Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: > > On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 17:00 +0300, Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: > > Another reason worth mentioning: BTRFS per se is slow. If you look at > > benchmarks > > on Phoronix comparing BTRFS with others, BTRFS is rarely even on par with > >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 8:01 AM Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: > > I see no one mentined yet: BTRFS is slow on HDDs. It trivially comes from > BTRFS > being COW. So if you changed a bit in a file, BTRFS will copy a block (or > maybe > a number of them, not sure this detail matters) to another place

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 17:00 +0300, Konstantin Kharlamov wrote: > Another reason worth mentioning: BTRFS per se is slow. If you look at > benchmarks > on Phoronix comparing BTRFS with others, BTRFS is rarely even on par with > them. Btw, I should also add here: it may be clear that in ideal situtat

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Friday, June 26, 2020 7:42:25 AM MST Ben Cotton wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/BtrfsByDefault > > == Summary == > > For laptop and workstation installs of Fedora, we want to provide file > system features to users in a transparent fashion. We want to add new > features, while

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 10:21 AM Markus Larsson wrote: > The actual data I will never ever be able to share. I have ended my time at > that particular company but even when I was there I was not permitted to > share such data. Or did you mean data from openSUSE and Arch? Whatever data makes th

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 06:41:17PM +0200, drago01 wrote: > Speaking of backups some popular (even cheap) NAS systems for "home users" > do use btrfs - those users also do not have professional IT support to help > them. Um, yes they do -- the folks who supplied the NAS software, aka the device ma

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 7:58 AM Peter Robinson wrote: > > > I've been very clear from the outset that Facebook's fault tolerance is much > > higher than the average Fedora user. The only reason I've agreed to assist > > in > > answering questions and support this proposal is because I have multi

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Saturday, June 27, 2020, Nicolas Mailhot via devel < devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote: > Le samedi 27 juin 2020 à 10:47 +0200, Igor Raits a écrit : > > > > Do you run postgres, financial transactions and random blackouts on > > your laptop / workstation? If so, isn't it just for testing pur

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/20 9:57 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: I've been very clear from the outset that Facebook's fault tolerance is much higher than the average Fedora user. The only reason I've agreed to assist in answering questions and support this proposal is because I have multi-year data that shows our fail

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 27 June 2020 17:55:09 CEST, Chris Murphy wrote: >On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 3:12 AM Markus Larsson wrote: > >> There's a difference between "can" and "should". I find this " >> can do this are you less of a man than " tiresome. > >Yes, I also find it tiresome when people make grandiose claims

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 3:12 AM Markus Larsson wrote: > There's a difference between "can" and "should". I find this " can > do this are you less of a man than " tiresome. Yes, I also find it tiresome when people make grandiose claims of having facts on their side, and yet provide none, but inj

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> > By that metric, Btrfs qualifies, as it's the default filesystem on > > SUSE Linux Enterprise (and has been since 2014). SUSE has built > > One thing I'd like to see addressed. > > Back in the RHEL7.4 days, btrfs was explicitly deprecated: > > "The Btrfs file system has been in Technology Previe

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 10:17 AM Solomon Peachy wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 09:39:36AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > > By that metric, Btrfs qualifies, as it's the default filesystem on > > SUSE Linux Enterprise (and has been since 2014). SUSE has built > > One thing I'd like to see addressed.

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 27 June 2020 16:17:16 CEST, Solomon Peachy wrote: >On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 09:39:36AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: >> By that metric, Btrfs qualifies, as it's the default filesystem on >> SUSE Linux Enterprise (and has been since 2014). SUSE has built > >One thing I'd like to see addressed. > >Ba

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 09:39:36AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > By that metric, Btrfs qualifies, as it's the default filesystem on > SUSE Linux Enterprise (and has been since 2014). SUSE has built One thing I'd like to see addressed. Back in the RHEL7.4 days, btrfs was explicitly deprecated: "The

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

I see no one mentined yet: BTRFS is slow on HDDs. It trivially comes from BTRFS being COW. So if you changed a bit in a file, BTRFS will copy a block (or maybe a number of them, not sure this detail matters) to another place, and now your data got fragmented. SSDs may not care, HDDs on the other ha

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

> I've been very clear from the outset that Facebook's fault tolerance is much > higher than the average Fedora user. The only reason I've agreed to assist in > answering questions and support this proposal is because I have multi-year > data > that shows our failure rates are the same that we se

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:30 AM Roberto Ragusa wrote: > > On 2020-06-27 10:47, Igor Raits wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA512 > > > > On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 10:35 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote: > >> On 2020-06-26 22:13, Justin Forbes wrote: > >> > >>> Saying production on m

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 2020-06-27 10:47, Igor Raits wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 10:35 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote: On 2020-06-26 22:13, Justin Forbes wrote: Saying production on millions of systems is a bit misleading here, when you are talking about millions of s

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/20 2:57 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote: Le vendredi 26 juin 2020 à 12:30 -0400, Josef Bacik a écrit : On 6/26/20 11:15 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:13:39AM -0400, Josef Bacik wrote: Not Fedora land, but Facebook installs it on all of our root devices, so mi

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 6/27/20 4:35 AM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: On 2020-06-26 22:13, Justin Forbes wrote: Saying production on millions of systems is a bit misleading here, when you are talking about millions of systems at a single company. ...in a redundant configuration where losing a disk is tolerated by design

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

* Josef Bacik: > As for your ENOSPC issue, I've made improvements on that area. I > see this in production as well, I have monitoring in place to deal > with the machine before it gets to this point. That being said if > you run the box out of metadata space things get tricky to fix. > I've been

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 10:59:57AM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote: > Le samedi 27 juin 2020 à 10:47 +0200, Igor Raits a écrit : > > > > Do you run postgres, financial transactions and random blackouts on > > your laptop / workstation? If so, isn't it just for testing purposes? > > Wokstat

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

So I definitely support the proposal. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List G

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Well I have for quite a while used btrfs successfully on fedora and I think it would make much sense for fedora to start using btrfs by default . ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fe

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 27 June 2020 03:21:32 CEST, Chris Murphy wrote: >On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 6:17 PM Peter Gordon wrote: >Facebook since 2015. SUSE/openSUSE on the desktop and on servers since >2014, by default. Are you suggesting they can do it and we can't? There's a difference between "can" and "should". I

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Le samedi 27 juin 2020 à 10:47 +0200, Igor Raits a écrit : > > Do you run postgres, financial transactions and random blackouts on > your laptop / workstation? If so, isn't it just for testing purposes? Wokstations are full of high-value personnal data, because home users do not have an IT organi

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 10:35 +0200, Roberto Ragusa wrote: > On 2020-06-26 22:13, Justin Forbes wrote: > > > Saying production on millions of systems is a bit misleading here, > > when you are talking about millions of systems at a single company. >

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

On 2020-06-26 22:13, Justin Forbes wrote: Saying production on millions of systems is a bit misleading here, when you are talking about millions of systems at a single company. ...in a redundant configuration where losing a disk is tolerated by design and managing data that have very low vale

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Le vendredi 26 juin 2020 à 12:30 -0400, Josef Bacik a écrit : > On 6/26/20 11:15 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:13:39AM -0400, Josef Bacik wrote: > > > Not Fedora land, but Facebook installs it on all of our root > > > devices, so millions of machines. We've done this for

Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: Make btrfs the default file system for desktop variants

Le vendredi 26 juin 2020 à 23:28 +0100, Tomasz Kłoczko a écrit : > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 23:21, Alex Thomas > wrote: > > Once question, are we looking at using a layout like openSUSE is > > doing? ( https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:BTRFS ) utilizing subvolumes, > > or > > are we looking at something l

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