[tdf-discuss] LibreOffice 3.3 final & portable version

[Marius Popa]

When do you plan to release LibreOffice.org 3.3 final? Is the portable
version developed by you or portableapps?

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[NoOp]

On 11/22/2010 08:09 PM, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/22/2010 06:37 PM, NoOp wrote:
...
> ...And NoOp, again, I thank you for taking the time and
> effort to try to make it easier for others to install the .debs on
> Debian and Debian derivatives (even Ubuntu :-)  ).
>

Welcome :-)

You may find this useful:
http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/index.en.html#contents
http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkgtools.en.html


Can you possibly try the squeeze packages:
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libreoffice
http://packages.debian.org/experimental/libreoffice
& provide feedback on how they install? I'm interested in knowing as I
would like to see
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/651124
[[needs-packaging] LibreOffice Productivity Suite]
progress. Thanks.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Craig A. Eddy]

On 11/22/2010 06:37 PM, NoOp wrote:
> On 11/22/2010 06:43 AM, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> ...
>> René
>>
>> It isn't so much that I administer a Debian release as that I USE a
>> Debian release and do what I can.  What I do is what I have managed to
>> learn to do over time, but without any formal training in UNIX, Linux,
>> administration, coding, or anything else.  That causes gaps in my
>> education that I freely admit.  I feel no shame for what I have learned
>> OR for what I haven't learned.  Not everyone can be as experienced as
>> you, nor can everyone feel as comfortable using CLI as you.  It is,
>> however why I feel comfortable asking questions or asking for help even
>> from complete strangers who might think less of me for my asking.
> 
> Not sure which Debian distro that you are using, but if you are using
> Ubuntu you may find these helpful:
> 
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingSoftware
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareManagement
> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man1/dpkg.1.html
> and bookmark:
> https://help.ubuntu.com/
>   https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/index.html
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community
>  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions
> 
> Note: I _think_ there are similar for standard Debian & other Debian
> based distros.
> 
> In general; to install LO .deb files on an Ubuntu system (for others
> that may have the same question):
> 
> 1. http://www.documentfoundation.org/download/
> Note the:
> "You can also download using BitTorrent, or browse all the Beta3
> installation packages to get unofficial Debian packages (32-bit .debs or
> 64-bit .debs), or language packs."
> Click on the appropriate for your system (32-bit or 64-bit)
> 32-bit:
> o
> http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
> 64-bit:
> o
> http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86_64/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86-64_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
> 
> Or just use the "browse all the Beta3 installation packages" link to:
> http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/
> 
> (32-bit example)
> 
> Download:
>  LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz15-Nov-2010 16:57   
> 164M
> Details
> 
> Important: the 'Details' link will give you md5sum/SHA/hash information
> that you can use to verify the package download with.
> 
> 2. Once the appropriate tar.gz file is downloaded; use Nautilus to
> browse to the file download. Right click the tar.gz file and select
> 'Extract here'. Nautilus will then automatically extract the contents &
> assign proper file permissions to a new folder:
> LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US (in the case of
> 32-bit). Under that folder you will find 3 subfolders: DEBS, licences,
> and readmes.
>   The 'DEBS' (LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS)
> folder is the folder that contains all the .deb packages. It also
> contains a subfolder 'desktop-integration' which contain the .deb
> package for adding LO to your desktop menus.
> Note the location of the
> LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. [1]
> 
> 3. Open a terminal (Applications|Accessories|terminal) and cd to the
> location of the
> LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. Example:
> 
> $ cd
> /home//LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS
> 
> Now install the .deb packages:
> 
> $ sudo dpkg -i *.deb
> 
> That will install all of the .deb packages in the system /opt folders
> /opt/libreoffice and /opt/libreoffice3
> 
> Now install the menus:
> 
> $ cd desktop-integration
> $ sudo dpkg -i *.deb
> 
> You now should have a working LO installed with menus added to
> Applications|Office|LibreOffice... If the menus are not automatically
> you may have to use:
> 
> $ sudo update-menus
> 
> or logout/login to get them to appear.
> 
> Note: when you start LO, your LO profile will be located in:
> ~/.libreoffice/3/user
> (/home//.libreoffice/3/user)
> 
> 
> [1] You can do all of this from the terminal rather than using Nautilus.
> However I recommend using Nautilus to new users so that you will have an
> graphical idea of were the files are located. To do from the terminal
> cli only:
> 
> I. Open the terminal and cd to the location of the .tar.gz file.
> II. Extract the .tar.gz file (again using the 32-bit file as an example):
> 
> $ tar xvzf LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
> 
> III. Now continue with #3 above.
> 
> I'm sure that someone can take all of that & make corrections & possibly
> put in some pretty screenshots etc., but that is pretty much the way
> that I do my installs & HTH.
> 
> One added note: if you wish to have multiple installs for testing
> purposes, I've found the basic 

Re: [tdf-discuss] changed footers of all documentfoundation and libreoffice.org mailing lists

[Jesso Murugan]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Barbara Duprey  wrote:

> On 11/22/2010 3:22 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>
>> Hi Friedrich,
>>
>> Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2010-11-21 14.37:
>>
>>  Well, as You can see I'm in favor of the lyric variant. :o))
>>>
>>
>> I'm against it. We need to make things clear, and put them in normal
>> words. We're not a writer's club. ;)
>>
>>  - prosaic variant:
>>> All posts to this list are publicly archived and can not be deleted
>>>
>>
>> +1 But it's "cannot", not "can not", I guess.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Florian
>>
>
> "Cannot" is certainly far more common, but "can not" probably would not be
> considered incorrect and may be more understandable to the international
> community.


I am from India, and I guess I belong to the 'international' community. We
prefer "cannot" too, "can not" is quite awkward. However, I prefer the
poetic version - "publicly archived for eternity".

Regards,
Jesso Clarence Murugan

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Michael Wheatland]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Robert Holtzman  wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
>> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
>> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
>> > learning *anything*.
>>
>> And that's a problem.
>
> I would say that's *the* problem.
> Bob Holtzman

The message does not seem to be getting through here.
Simply: This type of personal criticism is unacceptable in the
LibreOffice community.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Robert Holtzman]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly. 
> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> > learning *anything*.
> 
> And that's a problem.

I would say that's *the* problem.

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Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Take over of Novell

[NoOp]

On 11/22/2010 10:10 AM, Ian Lynch wrote:
> Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation?
> 

Actually, isn't this sort of thing the reason TDF was created to begin with?



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[Michael Wheatland]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Mirek M.  wrote:
> As I see it, the problem here is that cool, useful extensions aren't being
> really exposed to most OOo/LibO users. We should definitely expose these
> extensions more: advertise them on the LibO website, maybe redesign the
> Extension website and manager to be more friendly and showcase the most
> popular extensions.

Mirek,
That is exactly what the LibreOffice Drupal website development team
is going to achieve.
The OOo extensions site is quite difficult to navigate sometimes which
is one aspect we are hoping to address.
If you would like to make suggestions as to what functionality a new
extensions directory needs to have, please let me know.

Michael Wheatland

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[NoOp]

On 11/22/2010 04:33 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 08:04:29AM -0700, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
>> listed in the README_en-US file.  I'm not familiar with dpgk, though I
> 
> Then get. You administer a Debian-based system without knowing dpkg? Oh my.
> 
> (Besides that, http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice has a metapackage -
> you need at least squeeze for it, though)

For Ubuntu, see:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/651124
[[needs-packaging] LibreOffice Productivity Suite]


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[NoOp]

On 11/22/2010 06:43 AM, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
...
> René
> 
> It isn't so much that I administer a Debian release as that I USE a
> Debian release and do what I can.  What I do is what I have managed to
> learn to do over time, but without any formal training in UNIX, Linux,
> administration, coding, or anything else.  That causes gaps in my
> education that I freely admit.  I feel no shame for what I have learned
> OR for what I haven't learned.  Not everyone can be as experienced as
> you, nor can everyone feel as comfortable using CLI as you.  It is,
> however why I feel comfortable asking questions or asking for help even
> from complete strangers who might think less of me for my asking.

Not sure which Debian distro that you are using, but if you are using
Ubuntu you may find these helpful:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingSoftware
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareManagement
http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man1/dpkg.1.html
and bookmark:
https://help.ubuntu.com/
  https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/index.html
https://help.ubuntu.com/community
 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions

Note: I _think_ there are similar for standard Debian & other Debian
based distros.

In general; to install LO .deb files on an Ubuntu system (for others
that may have the same question):

1. http://www.documentfoundation.org/download/
Note the:
"You can also download using BitTorrent, or browse all the Beta3
installation packages to get unofficial Debian packages (32-bit .debs or
64-bit .debs), or language packs."
Click on the appropriate for your system (32-bit or 64-bit)
32-bit:
o
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
64-bit:
o
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86_64/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86-64_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz

Or just use the "browse all the Beta3 installation packages" link to:
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/

(32-bit example)

Download:
 LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz  15-Nov-2010 16:57   164M
Details

Important: the 'Details' link will give you md5sum/SHA/hash information
that you can use to verify the package download with.

2. Once the appropriate tar.gz file is downloaded; use Nautilus to
browse to the file download. Right click the tar.gz file and select
'Extract here'. Nautilus will then automatically extract the contents &
assign proper file permissions to a new folder:
LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US (in the case of
32-bit). Under that folder you will find 3 subfolders: DEBS, licences,
and readmes.
  The 'DEBS' (LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS)
folder is the folder that contains all the .deb packages. It also
contains a subfolder 'desktop-integration' which contain the .deb
package for adding LO to your desktop menus.
Note the location of the
LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. [1]

3. Open a terminal (Applications|Accessories|terminal) and cd to the
location of the
LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. Example:

$ cd
/home//LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS

Now install the .deb packages:

$ sudo dpkg -i *.deb

That will install all of the .deb packages in the system /opt folders
/opt/libreoffice and /opt/libreoffice3

Now install the menus:

$ cd desktop-integration
$ sudo dpkg -i *.deb

You now should have a working LO installed with menus added to
Applications|Office|LibreOffice... If the menus are not automatically
you may have to use:

$ sudo update-menus

or logout/login to get them to appear.

Note: when you start LO, your LO profile will be located in:
~/.libreoffice/3/user
(/home//.libreoffice/3/user)


[1] You can do all of this from the terminal rather than using Nautilus.
However I recommend using Nautilus to new users so that you will have an
graphical idea of were the files are located. To do from the terminal
cli only:

I. Open the terminal and cd to the location of the .tar.gz file.
II. Extract the .tar.gz file (again using the 32-bit file as an example):

$ tar xvzf LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz

III. Now continue with #3 above.

I'm sure that someone can take all of that & make corrections & possibly
put in some pretty screenshots etc., but that is pretty much the way
that I do my installs & HTH.

One added note: if you wish to have multiple installs for testing
purposes, I've found the basic instructions for doing OOo parallel
installs helpful:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Run_OOo_versions_parallel
Of particular importance is the section on:
User directory configuration for 3.* versions


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Michael Wheatland]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Italo Vignoli  wrote:
> TDF should not reproduce the same mistakes. The success of the project
> cannot be built on a group prevailing on others.

> Italo Vignoli

Italo,
Thanks for all of the hard work with the foundation. I am sure this
will be a great project, we just need to get things right early.

In response to this thread I would like to propose that the steering
committee move a motion with respect to supportive, positive
communication while using all official LibreOffice communication
methods.
This could be in the form of a code of conduct like:
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

I know the by-laws are a little way off, but as a community it is very
important to address and quash any aggressive or vitriolic attitudes
and establish a community culture that is supportive nurturing.
IMHO we need a mechanism to deal with this earlier rather than later,
even if that means loosing (or in extreme cases kicking) some
technically talented people due to their attitude.

Rene and Robert,
How can the community help you to change your attitude or approach and
take on the widely accepted etiquette, patience and manners open
source project culture.

Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Italo Vignoli]

Carl Symons wrote:


Italo, I work on several open source projects. Almost everyone else
involved is a developer (I'm more in your camp, although the dpkg -i
x86_64 .deb issue is well within my ability). In every case, there is
shared emphasis on users. What benefits the users? There's a whole lot
to that of course. But in no case is there the attitude that people
need to learn some level of the OS before they are considered worthy
of the product. Thank you for your work in making the Document
Foundation happen. I believe that you are on the right side of this
issue.


Thanks.

I can, of course, try to use the Terminal to install a software, and I 
have done it in the past when Ubuntu Tweak was not there.


I have a netbook with the infamous Poulsbo graphic card, and I have to 
run a script to make it usable (and I have to use the damned Terminal). 
But I do not like it, and it makes me nervous as I do not understand 
what is happening.


The fact that I am technically illiterate (and I like being so) does not 
make me a worse user, or one with less rights. Communities around the 
world have made OOo a better product because they have cared about 
users, although the project was clearly driven by developers not able to 
show any respect for users (and where the community was not there the 
project has been marginally successful).


TDF should not reproduce the same mistakes. The success of the project 
cannot be built on a group prevailing on others.


--
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italo.vign...@gmail.com
Mobile +39.348.5653829
VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Carl Symons]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Robert Holtzman  wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 01:30:19AM +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote:

>> Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
>> I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
>> source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
>> it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.
>
> A little gratuitous advice (not criticism). If you are new to mailing
> lists be aware that you should develop a thick skin. You're dealing
> with people and some people have shorter fuses than others. If they come
> across to you as arrogant you have several options. Ignore them, dig
> through the perceived arrogance to see what they are trying to convey,
> or filter their posts. The last runs the risk of missing out on
> important information.
>
> FWIW my attitude toward people learning at least the rudiments of their
> OS, beyond merely where to point and click, is quite similar to Rene's.
>>

In like fashion, people who don't want to put up with gratuitous
profanity have the same right to speak up about it. The person who
acts in ways that others perceive as arrogant and uses language that
detracts from conversations runs the risk of being dismissed. This
train runs both ways. The idea that profanity is sometimes required is
laughable. Why is that? To make a point more forcefully. To derail a
conversation. Whatever. The Document Foundation is a community
offering valuable software. Profanity IMO is unnecessary.

It is not anywhere written in the mission of the Document Foundation
that users have to learn anything about installation. However, there
is this on the LibreOffice page, "...improving how to make the
software available to our users." It would seem that Italo's position
is more in keeping with the apparent tech-elite proposed by Rene and
Robert Holtzman. You are certainly free to hold the opinion and impose
it on people that you support. It appears as though the requirement
that people have to know their OS before they can use LibO is going
down in defeat. Time for more swearing!!!

Italo, I work on several open source projects. Almost everyone else
involved is a developer (I'm more in your camp, although the dpkg -i
x86_64 .deb issue is well within my ability). In every case, there is
shared emphasis on users. What benefits the users? There's a whole lot
to that of course. But in no case is there the attitude that people
need to learn some level of the OS before they are considered worthy
of the product. Thank you for your work in making the Document
Foundation happen. I believe that you are on the right side of this
issue.

Carl

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[Frank Esposito]

>
> As I see it, the problem here is that cool, useful extensions aren't being
> really exposed to most OOo/LibO users.
>


if they are really cool and useful (as this one is that was just pointed
out) then they should become standard features of part of an add-on pack.

imho...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Robert Holtzman]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 01:30:19AM +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote:
> > You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.
> > Friedrich
> 
> I am new to this mailing list thing. I use Gmail and I reply by
> clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
> list.
> How are you able to tell which message I reply to? And what should I
> be doing to ensure that the message gets to it's intended target?
> But thanks for the tip.
> 
> Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
> I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
> source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
> it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.

A little gratuitous advice (not criticism). If you are new to mailing
lists be aware that you should develop a thick skin. You're dealing
with people and some people have shorter fuses than others. If they come
across to you as arrogant you have several options. Ignore them, dig
through the perceived arrogance to see what they are trying to convey,
or filter their posts. The last runs the risk of missing out on
important information.

FWIW my attitude toward people learning at least the rudiments of their
OS, beyond merely where to point and click, is quite similar to Rene's.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Michael Wheatland
> 
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-- 
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Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Robert Holtzman]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:06:27PM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
> On 2010-11-22 10:07 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> > There is no goddamn need for it.
> 
> And there's no need for profanity either...

Sometimes it's required.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Italo Vignoli]

Sigrid Carrera wrote:


Yes, I agree with you, arrogance doesn't help this project. But I
guess, René (btw, he is (was?) the Debian maintainer for OOo, and I
guess, he will maintain LibO for Debian too) has seen similar questions
too much and many people aren't willing to learn something new. So I can
understand, that he lost patience. But this is no excuse, since I've
seen this question only once here.


I think that every individual has the right to decide what he want to 
learn and what he does not want to learn. I do not want to learn to use 
the Terminal. Full stop. It is my right, and I simply ignore software if 
I have to use the Terminal.


Each one of us is good at something, and bad at something. I am bad at 
technology, but good at marketing and communications. I have never told 
to people unable to speak in public that they MUST learn to speak in 
public (also because the majority is not able to learn the skills which 
are necessary for that task, either because they are not interested or 
because - being humans - lack the basic ability).


I lack the ability of learning to use technology beyond a certain level 
of complexity, because I am not interested, exactly as other people are 
not able to speak in public because they lack the basic ability. What 
should I tell them: speaking in public is SOOO easy, why are you so DUMB?


Unfortunately, reading this thread I have realized that TDF is too much 
developer oriented, exactly as OOo was too much developer oriented (and 
missed many objectives because of this bias).


As a founding member and a Steering Committee member of TDF, I am not 
happy at all. Users must be respected, and if a user asks for an easier 
installation procedure, he is probably right (and the easier procedure 
has to be provided, sooner or later according to resources).


--
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VoIP: +39.02.320621813
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Sean,

since it is a bit hard for me to find the right place to "jump in", here
some decision on the version numbers question - the Steering Committee
discussed that some weeks ago.

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Version_Numbering_Scheme_for_LibreOffice:

Hope that helps!

Christoph

Am Samstag, den 20.11.2010, 10:26 +1100 schrieb Sean White:
> As a concerned user, if LibreOffice is meant a independent office project
> derived from the OpenOffice code then why do we still use their version
> numbering system.  Wouldn't it be better to start from 1 to reinforce in
> peoples minds that we are a separate project.
> 
> -- 
> Sean White,
> Concerned User
> 



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Sigrid Carrera]

Hello Michael, 

Am Tue, 23 Nov 2010 01:30:19 +0930
schrieb Michael Wheatland :

> > You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.
> > Friedrich
> 
> I am new to this mailing list thing. I use Gmail and I reply by
> clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
> list.

Don't worry, everyone here was once new to this "mailing list
thing". :) 

> How are you able to tell which message I reply to? And what should I
> be doing to ensure that the message gets to it's intended target?
> But thanks for the tip.

Every email contains a header like this: 
In-Reply-To: <201011221623.03013.damokles4-lis...@bits-fritz.de>
(this is copied from your mail). :) So if you use a "proper" email
client, the client can sort the emails where they belong and you can
see who replied to which comment of another user. 

If you want to reply to a specific mail (that isn't the last email in
the conversation list), then use the other reply button that is on the
top right corner of that specific email. 

You will then see, that gmail quotes the correct mail content and you
can comment to the specific paragraphs. 
 
> Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
> I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
> source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
> it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.

Yes, I agree with you, arrogance doesn't help this project. But I
guess, René (btw, he is (was?) the Debian maintainer for OOo, and I
guess, he will maintain LibO for Debian too) has seen similar questions
too much and many people aren't willing to learn something new. So I can
understand, that he lost patience. But this is no excuse, since I've
seen this question only once here. 

Sigrid

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly. 
> There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> learning *anything*.

And that's a problem.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Take over of Novell

[Ian Lynch]

On 22 November 2010 20:41, Michael Meeks  wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 18:10 +, Ian Lynch wrote:
> > Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation?
>
> It has been long anticipated, and comes as no surprise.
>
>In the short term, nothing changes. In the medium term what the
> effect
> is, bad, neutral or good is unclear.
>
>Either way - development-wise, LibreOffice is doing really extremely
> well with non-Novell developers right now; so whatever happens should
> not affect our viability as a project.
>
>I hope that helps,
>

Just want to make sure you are still on the project :-)

-- 
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The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[Sigrid Carrera]

Hi, 

I've tried to fix the mail from Florian Resinger: 

Btw, Florian, which email client do you use? Your email was horrible to
read I've had a hard time figuring out, who said what after your mail. 

Sigrid



Am Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:25:11 +0100
schrieb Florian Reisinger :

Claus Agerskov schrieb: 
> 
> Sean White skrev:
> >As a concerned user, if LibreOffice is meant a independent office
> >project derived from the OpenOffice code then why do we still use
> >their version numbering system. Wouldn't it be better to start from
> >1 to reinforce in peoples minds that we are a separate project
> >

> I will suggest another version scheme like the one the Linux
> distribution Ubuntu uses.
> 
> The year and month: 9.04, 9.10, 10.4 and 10.10.

> I know it is very difficult to release at a specific month because
> there could be a lot of issues that postpone a release date.
> 
> Maybe it should only be the target to have one major release
> each year and smaller updates and security releases with minor
> version numbers:

> Yearly major release: 11 and 12
> Update release: 11.1,11.2 and 12.1
> Security releases: 11.0.5, 11.1.5, 11.2.5, 12.0.5 and
> 12.1.5 (security release 5)

I think it would be easier to understand, if it's "classic."
Betas: 0.9.1 (Beta 1)1.9.3 ( Third Beta for Version Number 2 ) => Mayor Release
Mayor Release 1.0 , 2.0 ...
Update and Security Release: 1.1 1.5  

Kind regards 
Florian Reisinger 
Linz Austria



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[Mirek M.]

Hi everyone,

2010/11/22 T. J. Brumfield 

> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Marc Paré  wrote:
>
> > Le 2010-11-22 14:02, Graham Lauder a écrit :
> >
> > On Tuesday 23 November 2010 06:29:01 Frank Esposito wrote:
> >>
> >>> Will this ever happen with Libre Office?
> >>>
> >>> Google Launches Plugin That Fuses Microsoft Office With Google
> >>> Docs<
> >>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/22/google-launches-plugin-that-fuses-mic
> >>> rosoft-office-with-google-docs/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> just thoughts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -fe
> >>>
> >>
> >> What it should read is:  Google helps MSOffice play catch up a little on
> >> OOo.
> >> OOo/LibreO/Go-ooo communities ask: "What took you so long".
> >>
> >> I've had this functionality for quite some time.
> >> So therefore, the second question is "how did you not know this?"
> >>  And the third question: "How do we let the world know?"
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> GL
> >>
> >>
> > Someone could blog on this and then point it out. You could also add a
> > comment to the article. There is still no mention of LibreOffice or OOo
> on
> > the comments sections.
> >
> > Seing this on a LibreOffice blog would be cool, then we could advertise
> the
> > blog on something like http://www.LinuxToday.com<
> http://www.linuxtoday.com/>.
> > They average 1 million hits a day.
> >
> > Marc
>
>
> Some of the most popular extensions should be reevaluated as core features
> as opposed to extensions that ship seperately. If this was a baked in
> feature, more people might be exposed to it.
>

As I see it, the problem here is that cool, useful extensions aren't being
really exposed to most OOo/LibO users. We should definitely expose these
extensions more: advertise them on the LibO website, maybe redesign the
Extension website and manager to be more friendly and showcase the most
popular extensions.

There are a lot of really great extensions, way more than we could possibly
hope to package with LibreOffice. If people aren't hearing about them, then
we need to make these extensions discoverable. (Personally, when I started
using OOo, it took me a while to find where I could get the language packs I
needed.)

P. S. I'm not against including extensions with LibreOffice, but these
extensions would definitely need to be removable.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Take over of Novell

[Graham Lauder]

On Tuesday 23 November 2010 07:10:31 Ian Lynch wrote:
> Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation?

And my question would be; do any of the 882 patents sold to the Microsoft 
consortium affect the go-ooo code and therefore expose TDF to patent actions?

Cheers
GL

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Robert Holtzman]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 06:50:36PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +, Lee Hyde wrote:
> > original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single
> > setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of
> > individual .deb files. This is not user friendly!
> 
> Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim.
> That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument.

   ..snip.

Whether it's user friendly or not depends on the user. If he/she/it is 
open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly. 
There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
learning *anything*.


-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[T. J. Brumfield]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Marc Paré  wrote:

> Le 2010-11-22 14:02, Graham Lauder a écrit :
>
> On Tuesday 23 November 2010 06:29:01 Frank Esposito wrote:
>>
>>> Will this ever happen with Libre Office?
>>>
>>> Google Launches Plugin That Fuses Microsoft Office With Google
>>> Docs<
>>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/22/google-launches-plugin-that-fuses-mic
>>> rosoft-office-with-google-docs/>
>>>
>>>
>>> just thoughts
>>>
>>>
>>> -fe
>>>
>>
>> What it should read is:  Google helps MSOffice play catch up a little on
>> OOo.
>> OOo/LibreO/Go-ooo communities ask: "What took you so long".
>>
>> I've had this functionality for quite some time.
>> So therefore, the second question is "how did you not know this?"
>>  And the third question: "How do we let the world know?"
>>
>> Cheers
>> GL
>>
>>
> Someone could blog on this and then point it out. You could also add a
> comment to the article. There is still no mention of LibreOffice or OOo on
> the comments sections.
>
> Seing this on a LibreOffice blog would be cool, then we could advertise the
> blog on something like http://www.LinuxToday.com.
> They average 1 million hits a day.
>
> Marc


Some of the most popular extensions should be reevaluated as core features
as opposed to extensions that ship seperately. If this was a baked in
feature, more people might be exposed to it.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Take over of Novell

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Ian,

On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 18:10 +, Ian Lynch wrote:
> Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation?

It has been long anticipated, and comes as no surprise.

In the short term, nothing changes. In the medium term what the effect
is, bad, neutral or good is unclear.

Either way - development-wise, LibreOffice is doing really extremely
well with non-Novell developers right now; so whatever happens should
not affect our viability as a project.

I hope that helps,

Michael.

-- 
 michael.me...@novell.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot



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[tdf-discuss] Re: Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-22 14:02, Graham Lauder a écrit :

On Tuesday 23 November 2010 06:29:01 Frank Esposito wrote:

Will this ever happen with Libre Office?

Google Launches Plugin That Fuses Microsoft Office With Google
Docs


just thoughts


-fe


What it should read is:  Google helps MSOffice play catch up a little on OOo.
OOo/LibreO/Go-ooo communities ask: "What took you so long".

I've had this functionality for quite some time.
So therefore, the second question is "how did you not know this?"
  And the third question: "How do we let the world know?"

Cheers
GL



Someone could blog on this and then point it out. You could also add a 
comment to the article. There is still no mention of LibreOffice or OOo 
on the comments sections.


Seing this on a LibreOffice blog would be cool, then we could advertise 
the blog on something like http://www.LinuxToday.com. They average 1 
million hits a day.


Marc


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Re: [steering-discuss] Community bylaws

[David Nelson]

Hi Charles, :-)

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 00:18, Charles-H. Schulz
 wrote:
> thank you a lot for this!!!

No problem. I've got a watch on the page, and will visit whenever
there's a change then. ;-)

>> 1) "(however, ESC members who are also members of the BoD can only
>> cast one single vote in this election, regardless of their membership
>> of both bodies)": So which body do they cast their vote in? How and
>> when is that decision taken? The choice could change the outcome of
>> the voting.
>
> Right, that sounds clunky so let me clarify: members of the ESC who are
> also members of the BoD only vote at the BoD and not at the ESC. Is it
> better?

I understood what you meant, no problem there. The ambiguity is how
the decision is taken about which body they vote on... Especially as
throwing their vote in on one body or the other could maybe weight the
election in one direction or another, and change the result. My
suggestion was that it would be good to lay down unambiguous rules for
this...

>> 2) "(a specific list of names, or one name only, will have been
>> submitted by the BoD and the AB)": How would the list be drawn up?
>> Perhaps you need at least a cross-reference to another clause in the
>> bye-laws that resolves that question? If there's only one name, then
>> there would be no point in voting at all...
>
> I can clarify that, but in essence I guess 1)people will nominate
> themselves to the BoD and 1)that the BoD as well as the AB can nominate
> someone.

OK, I get the idea. Perhaps a separate, short paragraph explaining
that might be good? I could draft one tomorrow and submit it in a
standalone edit that will be easy to identify and roll back/modify if
it doesn't quite say what you want...?

>> 3) "However, if three different people are nominated, then a
>> conciliation process takes place, with the aim of eliminating one
>> nominee and making a choice between two nominees only.": That could
>> give rise to a difficult situation...
>
> Yes. :-)

I guess this is the point that, IMVHO, might be in most need of an
unequivocal procedure, as it could give rise to controversial
situations...

HTH.

David Nelson

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[tdf-discuss] Re: LibreOffice should have own "LibreOfficeFont"

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-22 06:30, Michael Wheatland a écrit :

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Claus Agerskov  wrote:

I would see Verdana as one of the pre-installed fonts aswell.

-1

Verdana is a proprietary Microsoft font. Let's focus on open source
solutions such as those previously discussed on the Documentation list
including Liberation, Bitstream, Droid, FreeSans, FreeSerif, Goudy
Bookletter 1911, Flaminia, etc.
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Branding-and-Documentation-td1836672.html



Thanks for the redirection.


The discussion aimed at including ~10-20 quality OPEN source fonts
which are commonly used is quite mature. I suggest you have a look at
the Documentation mailing list for the info.

Personally I would like to see active discouragement of the use of
Times New Roman, Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Calibri, Cambia, etc. as
they are restricted to Microsoft product use only, resulting in
impossible verbatim compatibility.



Absolutely agreed.


Thanks for the enthusiasm, even if a bit misdirected IMHO.

Michael Wheatland



Marc


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Version Numbers?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-22 07:05, Sean White a écrit :

because the underlining code inst changing overly-much, most of the
extensions should be easy to port and in th odd case where an extension is
truely broken by LO's remakes then we can rewrite the plugin from scratch.
  As a side not we will probably need a page on the document foundation site
that is for these ported plugins

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:01 PM,  wrote:



Hi Sean et al:

I have been reading this thread and your idea sounds great! Would you 
like to add it to the "ideas" page on the marketing wiki page?


http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Ideas

It will probably get more attentions there too.

Cheers

Marc
Marketing Member
Drupal Web. Dev. Member


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-11-22 10:07 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> There is no goddamn need for it.

And there's no need for profanity either...

-- 

Best regards,

Charles Marcus

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[Graham Lauder]

On Tuesday 23 November 2010 06:29:01 Frank Esposito wrote:
> Will this ever happen with Libre Office?
> 
> Google Launches Plugin That Fuses Microsoft Office With Google
> Docs rosoft-office-with-google-docs/>
> 
> 
> just thoughts
> 
> 
> -fe

What it should read is:  Google helps MSOffice play catch up a little on OOo.  
OOo/LibreO/Go-ooo communities ask: "What took you so long".

I've had this functionality for quite some time.  
So therefore, the second question is "how did you not know this?" 
 And the third question: "How do we let the world know?" 

Cheers 
GL

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 07:12:52PM +, Lee Hyde wrote:
> Is this Debian repository a dedicated LibO repository or does it contain
> other packages? Does it include 64-bit builds of LibO?

Other packages, too, but it also is priorized that way that you need to 
explicitly
select what you want. And yes, it does contain almost all archs OOo runs on:

 libreoffice | 1:3.3.0~beta3-2 | experimental | source, amd64, i386, 
kfreebsd-amd64, kfreebsd-i386, powerpc, sparc

ARM building right now, S390 failing because of perl, MIPS not yet built.

Besides that, there's also the publically announced 
http://people.debian.org/~rene/libreoffice/3.3.0.

64bit builds will ~always be the first to be there, since that is my work 
machine.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 03:07, Rene Engelhard
 wrote:
> No, because both of those docs are unneeded. Do whatever you want for the 
> distro
> which should be died - not for this reason, though but others - but disconnect
> me please from thoose propagdandists. Thanks.

OK, sure, no worries. I'll figure it. ;-)

David Nelson

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Lee Hyde]

On 22/11/10 18:18, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> Annd that super-duper usable Ubuntu
> doesn't have a tool equivalent to dpkg -i *.deb? Don't believe so really
> (or they failed their goal more than I ever thought)
>

FWI To the best of my knowledge Ubuntu used to use dpkg to handle .deb
files but this is now handled by the software centre. It does seem that
the software centre is not set up to handle a multi-package installation
but it is a young application.

I may file a bug on this, it would be preferable for the software centre
to search the original directory for dependencies and/or allow the end
user to manually locate any dependencies that are not resolvable.

On 22/11/10 18:18, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> (Besides that, it is already in a Debian repository)
>

Is this Debian repository a dedicated LibO repository or does it contain
other packages? Does it include 64-bit builds of LibO?

-- 
"There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?"

-- Dr. Jonas Stalk, on being asked who owned the patent for his polio
vaccine



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[Benjamin Horst]

On Nov 22, 2010, at 12:31 PM, T. J. Brumfield wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Frank Esposito 
> wrote:
> 
>> Will this ever happen with Libre Office?
>> 
>> Google Launches Plugin That Fuses Microsoft Office With Google
>> Docs<
>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/22/google-launches-plugin-that-fuses-microsoft-office-with-google-docs/

Here's a link to the extension: 
http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/project/ooo2gd

-Ben

Benjamin Horst
bho...@mac.com
646-464-2314 (Eastern)
www.solidoffice.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 02:55:22AM +0800, David Nelson wrote:
> I am ROFL reading this thread. :-D

You obviously are not thinking about the big picture, otherwise you wouldn't
laugh.

> Rene, I'll write that how-to this week, notably for Ubuntu users, and
> then - if it's OK with you - I'll send you the draft with any
> questions I have regarding Debian.
> 
> We could also include instructions about how to *de-install* an
> already-installed beta 2.
> 
> Would that be OK with you?

No, because both of those docs are unneeded. Do whatever you want for the distro
which should be died - not for this reason, though but others - but disconnect
me please from thoose propagdandists. Thanks.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Carl Symons]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Lee Hyde  wrote:
>
>


>
> On 22/11/10 17:50, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>> No, my position taken to the logical conclusion would not be that (as I think
>> there's use cases for GUIs - I didn't say anything against them here but just
>> mentioned that dpkg is basics - we don't need GUIs but that we need a 
>> "drivers license"
>> for computers. Mandatory for everyone who wants to use PCs.
>>
>> The same as if you would not be allowed to drive a car if you don't know 
>> where
>> the steering wheel or the gas pedal is, neither would you be allowed to use 
>> a gear car
>> when you only know automatic.
>>
>> Learn basics, or live with people telling you that you need to look at 
>> basics before
>> you do stuff.
>
> This is an absolutely horrendous view to hold! Such patronising views
> only serve to hold back the FOSS community. Strange as it may seem to
> you Rene, many are intimedated by the command line. They shouldn't be,
> but they are, and your above comments will do nothing to assuage such
> end-users. In fact there more likely to turn back to Windows or MacOSX
> than adapt to your way of thinking/doing. Some of us like our icon
> metaphors and prefer our double-click > install to your open terminal >
> navigate to directory > dpkg -i *.deb.
>
> Also, The reason that people are required to qualify for a driving
> license before driving a car is that behind the wheel of a car a bad
> driver can easily kill a fellow road-user/cyclist/pedestrian. Now unless
> the 1980s film 'War Games' was an accurate representation of computing
> the same cannot be said of a technophobic office worker, in fact if
> anything they be better off staying well clear of the command line.
>
> I'm afraid that your patronizing 'get orf my land you idiot' mentality
> will serve only to exclude the vast majority of end-users, as it has in
> the past, and without a significant user base LibreOffice will
> degenerate into little more than a hobby project and rightly so (if it
> chooses to alienate the majority of computer users instead of embrace them).
>
> --

+1, Lee.

It would be good if people understood the tools that they use. But
they don't. And they won't. And they shouldn't have to in order to use
basic communication tools such as LibreOffice.

Expecting people to have a "license to compute" is quixotic. It is
simply not going to happen. There is no good reason to make
LibreOffice installation any more difficult than other run-of-the-mill
applications, whatever platform is involved.

Rene, (cordially) Your attitude seems more appropriate to a radical
LUGr or a Microsoft plant than to a group that is trying to get some
liftoff force for a F/OSS project that has a lot of potential. How is
it part of the DocumentFoundation mission to change people's basic
software installation habit?

There are plenty enough hurdles without trying to force behavior
changes artificially. What could you do to help the project succeed?

Carl

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Lee Hyde]

On 22/11/10 17:58, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> 
> Beisde that, you agree that .deb is what users should know. How on earth are 
> they
> then NOT to know how to install them? (And install all of debs one program 
> consists
> of?)
> 
I'm but a lowly Ubuntu user Rene, and I usually favour the use of
repositories which should nominally include all dependencies. But when
no repository is forth coming, as is the case with LibO (x86-64) I am
forced to slum it and use .deb files. The usual behavior when
double-clicking a .deb file is for the software centre to launch and
offer me the oppertunity to install (almost identical to setup.exe and
installer in windows) but since LibO consists of multiple dependencies
software centre throws a bit of a hissy fit regarding unresolvable
dependencies; it seems to me that a meta package and/or a script that
installs the whole suite would be preferable to directing the user to
open a terminal, navigate to the directory containing the .deb files and
type 'dpkg -i *.deb'.

But then again, I am but a humble Ubuntu user!


On 22/11/10 17:58, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> If we follow your thinking, there would be NO dependencies at all allowed and 
> every
> app needs to include every possible piece of software it needs - be it 
> (security-)buggsy,
> grossly oudated, unstable or whatever) just to please users.
> 
> [ Disclaimer: The packages which get out of the installer and are in that 
> .tar.gz DO suck.
> I don't deny that. I wholeheartly agree with you that THEY are 
> user-unfriendly. dpkg is not. ]
> 
I have no problem with dpkg at all, and I will likely use it to install
LibO whenever I get around to it. But most end users are not as
inquisitive as I when presented with what, to the uninitiated, looks
like dozens of separate installers and will either try to install each
package one by one (and be thwarted by errors) or give up. Now we can
either accept that reality and provide a simpler means of installing
LibO (a repository, a meta-package, an install script, etc...) or we can
edit the ReadMe to reflect the dpkg method for installation (and hope
the average end user will look to the ReadMe) or we can do both. I
favour the latter myself.


-- 
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"

-- Dr. Samuel Johnson (April 7th, 1775)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 07:34:13PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> From a geeks point of view You are right. But I'm shure that it is not a
> good idea to make all people out there geeks before using a computer or
> using office software ;o)).

Ah, so we should let people not care about their PCs, how to use it, keep it 
safe
etc. and thus affecting all, spreading viruses, spam and having botnets active?

> So I heavily hope, that LibreOffice will leave it's past behind and
> will grow from a developer driven software to a community driven one.

What the hell does that have to do with people using PCs getting their basics 
straight?
Correctly, it doesn't.
(Otherwise I agree with you, we can argue about marketing and I agree for some 
deeper
features you need docs, but come on, are you also going to tell people on how 
to use their
mouse?)

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

I am ROFL reading this thread. :-D

Rene, I'll write that how-to this week, notably for Ubuntu users, and
then - if it's OK with you - I'll send you the draft with any
questions I have regarding Debian.

We could also include instructions about how to *de-install* an
already-installed beta 2.

Would that be OK with you?

David Nelson

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Lee Hyde]

On 22/11/10 17:50, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +, Lee Hyde wrote:
> Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim.
> That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument.
> 
It is obvious that the dpkg method described is a more involved
proceedure than a meta-package or installation script. Like it or not
Rene the icon metaphor is the predominant UI paradigm in modern
operating systems. That may one day change, but I cannot see the command
line supplanting it.

On 22/11/10 17:50, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> If those end users don't think, yes, you're right.
> 

I was not aware of the aforementioned dpkg method myself, and trust me
I'm no fool I'm simply not familiar with all of the ins and outs of the
linux command line. Nor do I have the time and/or inclination to do so
for such a trivial use-case as software installation.

On 22/11/10 17:50, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> No, my position taken to the logical conclusion would not be that (as I think
> there's use cases for GUIs - I didn't say anything against them here but just
> mentioned that dpkg is basics - we don't need GUIs but that we need a 
> "drivers license"
> for computers. Mandatory for everyone who wants to use PCs.
> 
> The same as if you would not be allowed to drive a car if you don't know where
> the steering wheel or the gas pedal is, neither would you be allowed to use a 
> gear car
> when you only know automatic.
> 
> Learn basics, or live with people telling you that you need to look at basics 
> before
> you do stuff.

This is an absolutely horrendous view to hold! Such patronising views
only serve to hold back the FOSS community. Strange as it may seem to
you Rene, many are intimedated by the command line. They shouldn't be,
but they are, and your above comments will do nothing to assuage such
end-users. In fact there more likely to turn back to Windows or MacOSX
than adapt to your way of thinking/doing. Some of us like our icon
metaphors and prefer our double-click > install to your open terminal >
navigate to directory > dpkg -i *.deb.

Also, The reason that people are required to qualify for a driving
license before driving a car is that behind the wheel of a car a bad
driver can easily kill a fellow road-user/cyclist/pedestrian. Now unless
the 1980s film 'War Games' was an accurate representation of computing
the same cannot be said of a technophobic office worker, in fact if
anything they be better off staying well clear of the command line.

I'm afraid that your patronizing 'get orf my land you idiot' mentality
will serve only to exclude the vast majority of end-users, as it has in
the past, and without a significant user base LibreOffice will
degenerate into little more than a hobby project and rightly so (if it
chooses to alienate the majority of computer users instead of embrace them).

-- 
"Cruel leaders are replaced only to have new leaders turn cruel."

-- Ernesto 'Che' Guevara


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[Robert Derman]

jonathon wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/21/2010 09:15 PM, James Wilde wrote:

  

...and?  Is LibO going to upgrade the version number every time OOo does?  And 
only then?



Unless there is a "compatibility tag" for extensions, the way that there
is for firefox, LibO is stuck with the version numbering that OOo uses,
if it wants to retain compatibility with those extensions.

jonathon
  
Wouldn't it be better to rewrite the extensions and post the revised 
extensions on a LO website?


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi René, *,

René Engelhard schrieb:

>On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:15:25PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

>> So you'd recommend everybody just running a desktop machine and not
>> wanting to get a full featured serveradmin to abhore debian?

>No, I want desktop users to know how to use their system. And if they
>also administer it they should know basics about dpkg.

>> >http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR.

>> I can't see this hint an useful answer to the OP's question
>> regarding his aparent debian knowledge.

>True, but those are debs he can install if he used squeeze or sid :)

From a geeks point of view You are right. But I'm shure that it is not a
good idea to make all people out there geeks before using a computer or
using office software ;o)).

So I heavily hope, that LibreOffice will leave it's past behind and
will grow from a developer driven software to a community driven one.

:o)))

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 04:56:40PM +0100, Italo Vignoli wrote:
> So, I think that any user guide that makes it easier for computer
> illiterates to install a software is always welcome, provided that I
> will not install LibreOffice until is available in a repository that
> I can access via Ubuntu Tweak (but there are computer illiterates
> which are less illiterate than me, and they accept to use the
> terminal).

WTF is Ubuntu Tweak? *looking* omg. Annd that super-duper usable Ubuntu
doesn't have a tool equivalent to dpkg -i *.deb? Don't believe so really
(or they failed their goal more than I ever thought)

(Besides that, it is already in a Debian repository)

> basic illiterate Linux user. I might even end up installing
> LibreOffice even if it is not in a repository.

True. That doesn't contradict knowing basics of the OS you use, though.

I didn't claim people installing LibO need to know every detail of  their
system.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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[tdf-discuss] Take over of Novell

[Ian Lynch]

Is the take over of Novell going to affect the document foundation?

-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New support list suggestion

[James Wilde]

On Nov 22, 2010, at 17:18 , Michael Wheatland wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 1:10 AM, James Wilde  wrote:
>> Will these automatically post the question on the nabble forum and thus on 
>> the mailing list?  And will the answers come back from the nabble forum and 
>> the mailing list, or are these separate support sites?
>> If not yes to both questions, I would agree with Friedrich that there's a 
>> danger of being divided and conquered with these support accounts on the 
>> social networks.
> 
> The Drupal system is able to directly communicate with Twitter,
> Facebook and some other social networks currently. So the aim is 'yes'
> we will have this type of integration.
> 
> To add a little meat to your question:
> We are looking to improve the system while maintaining legacy support
> for the old protocols.
> 
> Nabble is an add-on to the mailing list archive as a graphical overlay
> of the mailing list system. The current plan is to build a forum as
> the central platform off which will hang in/out protocols for mailing
> lists, news servers, XML (RSS or atom), social networks and any other
> protocol which people throw our way. This way if someone asks a
> question on facebook, it could be answered by someone on a mailing
> list and redelivered to facebook as a reply while the accessable
> archive remains on the Drupal site (forum or other tool set). In this
> respect Nabble and the mailing list archives will become redundant and
> the contents of which will be relocated in the Drupal system.
> 

Awesome.  This sounds good!

//James


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 06:50:36PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +, Lee Hyde wrote:
> > original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single
> > setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of
> > individual .deb files. This is not user friendly!
> 
> Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim.
> That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument.

Beisde that, you agree that .deb is what users should know. How on earth are 
they
then NOT to know how to install them? (And install all of debs one program 
consists
of?)

If we follow your thinking, there would be NO dependencies at all allowed and 
every
app needs to include every possible piece of software it needs - be it 
(security-)buggsy,
grossly oudated, unstable or whatever) just to please users.

[ Disclaimer: The packages which get out of the installer and are in that 
.tar.gz DO suck.
I don't deny that. I wholeheartly agree with you that THEY are user-unfriendly. 
dpkg is not. ]

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +, Lee Hyde wrote:
> original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single
> setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of
> individual .deb files. This is not user friendly!

Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim.
That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument.

> On 22/11/10 15:07, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> > There is no goddamn need for it. (That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have
> > no clue how they do basic system tasks doesn't make it more needed)
> 
> This is a rather hostile attitude to show towards end users and an

If those end users don't think, yes, you're right.

> based operating systems in the past. If your position were to be taken
> to its logical conclusion we should scrap LibreOffice, which afterall is
> pandering to the masses with its use of GUI and WYSIWYG, in favour of TeX.

No, my position taken to the logical conclusion would not be that (as I think
there's use cases for GUIs - I didn't say anything against them here but just
mentioned that dpkg is basics - we don't need GUIs but that we need a "drivers 
license"
for computers. Mandatory for everyone who wants to use PCs.

The same as if you would not be allowed to drive a car if you don't know where
the steering wheel or the gas pedal is, neither would you be allowed to use a 
gear car
when you only know automatic.

Learn basics, or live with people telling you that you need to look at basics 
before
you do stuff.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[jonathon]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/22/2010 11:24 AM, Sean White wrote:
> One of the things i LOVE about open source software is the ability for me to
 ask someone else to code something or port something that i cant do myself.

Have you looked at the percentage of extensions for OOo that are open
source?
Have you looked at the percentage of popular extensions that are open
source?

jonathon


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[jonathon]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/22/2010 03:07 PM, Rene Engelhard wrote:

> Because dpkg -i *.deb is esssentialy setup.exe.

That would be true if, and only if there was _one_ deb to install, in
which gdeb would by used, not dpkg.

>Don't tell me anyone using Windows must not know setup.exe to install
software?

Out in the world of Joe Sixpack, autoexec.run on the CD/DVD/BluRay is
the program that installs software.

> There is no goddamn need for it.

By that token, there in no need for _any_ program, on any os, other than
emacs.

>(That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have no clue how they do basic
system tasks doesn't make it more needed)

That lack of knowledge makes it imperative that that how to install the
files be included.  If that includes an explanation of how to use dpkg,
so be it.

To do otherwise is to alienate the program from those that are dipping
in the world of FLOSS.


jonathon
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Italo Vignoli]

Rene Engelhard wrote:


There is no goddamn need for it. (That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have
no clue how they do basic system tasks doesn't make it more needed)


Please do consider that Ubuntu has allowed people like me to switch to 
Linux, although I still feel I have to use the terminal too frequently 
(being the ideal frequence equal to never).


I do not even think about installing a software if I have to open the 
terminal, and I am considered a geek in my professional environment of 
marketers.


So, I think that any user guide that makes it easier for computer 
illiterates to install a software is always welcome, provided that I 
will not install LibreOffice until is available in a repository that I 
can access via Ubuntu Tweak (but there are computer illiterates which 
are less illiterate than me, and they accept to use the terminal).


Please do remember that developers are not representing the average 
LibreOffice user, and user requests are usually important because they 
give us very important informations on how the software is perceived and 
used.


So, as a Steering Committee member, and as one of TDF spokepersons, I 
would really like to see these installation instructions for the basic 
illiterate Linux user. I might even end up installing LibreOffice even 
if it is not in a repository.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

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Re: [steering-discuss] Community bylaws

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello, 

Le Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:08:30 +,
Michael Meeks  a écrit :

> Hi there,
> 
> On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 21:03 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
> > It seems that there are still some big ambiguities that would need
> > to be resolved:
> 
>   Well detected :-)
> 
> > "The Chairperson is elected by a special electoral college comprised
> > of the BoD, the AB and and the ESC (however, ESC members who are
> > also members of the BoD can only cast one single vote in this
> > election,
> 
>   Oh - wow, what is the ESC doing in that mix. I would prefer
> that the board simply elect the chairman, who is just a member of the
> board that has some special meeting management role :-)
> 
>   Hopefully that de-complicates the whole process; then again I
> havn't read the proposal in full recently.
> 
>   I believe there is a -huge- danger of over-engineering any
> constitution
> - particularly when you get engineers near it :-) and ending up with
> some huge joke like the OO.o governance - where obscure rules seemed
> to breed in dark corners :-)

So, I'm going to rewrite the ESC part; it will at least simplify the
chairman story. But having him/her part of the BoD would also nix its
role I fear.

Best,
Charles. 


> 
>   HTH,
> 
>   Michael.



-- 
Charles-H. Schulz
Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[T. J. Brumfield]

There are already OOo plugins that integrate OOo with Google Docs. They've
been around for years.

-- T. J.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Frank Esposito wrote:

> Will this ever happen with Libre Office?
>
> Google Launches Plugin That Fuses Microsoft Office With Google
> Docs<
> http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/22/google-launches-plugin-that-fuses-microsoft-office-with-google-docs/
> >
>
>
> just thoughts
>
>
> -fe
>

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[tdf-discuss] Google now integrates with MSO, what about Libre/OO?

[Frank Esposito]

Will this ever happen with Libre Office?

Google Launches Plugin That Fuses Microsoft Office With Google
Docs


just thoughts


-fe



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Re: [tdf-discuss] New support list suggestion

[Michael Wheatland]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 1:10 AM, James Wilde  wrote:
> Will these automatically post the question on the nabble forum and thus on 
> the mailing list?  And will the answers come back from the nabble forum and 
> the mailing list, or are these separate support sites?
> If not yes to both questions, I would agree with Friedrich that there's a 
> danger of being divided and conquered with these support accounts on the 
> social networks.

The Drupal system is able to directly communicate with Twitter,
Facebook and some other social networks currently. So the aim is 'yes'
we will have this type of integration.

To add a little meat to your question:
We are looking to improve the system while maintaining legacy support
for the old protocols.

Nabble is an add-on to the mailing list archive as a graphical overlay
of the mailing list system. The current plan is to build a forum as
the central platform off which will hang in/out protocols for mailing
lists, news servers, XML (RSS or atom), social networks and any other
protocol which people throw our way. This way if someone asks a
question on facebook, it could be answered by someone on a mailing
list and redelivered to facebook as a reply while the accessable
archive remains on the Drupal site (forum or other tool set). In this
respect Nabble and the mailing list archives will become redundant and
the contents of which will be relocated in the Drupal system.

This is a pretty high goal, but I along with the Drupal website
development team believes it is achievable within the allotted time.
Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

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Re: [steering-discuss] Community bylaws

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello David, 

Le Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:03:21 +0800,
David Nelson  a écrit :

> Hi, :-)
> 
> Having been given permission to proofread and revise the initial
> draft, I presumed it would be OK to do the same for subsequent
> amendments. I hope I did not overstep myself there; if I did, please
> say so and I will, of course, desist. However, I came up with a
> revised text as below (it simply states exactly the same things, but
> re-worded).
> 

thank you a lot for this!!!

> It seems that there are still some big ambiguities that would need to
> be resolved:
> 
> "The Chairperson is elected by a special electoral college comprised
> of the BoD, the AB and and the ESC (however, ESC members who are also
> members of the BoD can only cast one single vote in this election,
> regardless of their membership of both bodies). The vote by this
> special college is not decided by the votes of the individual members
> taken as a whole; instead, each respective body holds a vote among its
> members, and returns a nomination of one candidate (a specific list of
> names, or one name only, will have been submitted by the BoD and the
> AB). The three bodies therefore arrive at a shortlist of three
> nominees. If one of the three nominees has a majority within the
> shortlist (has two votes out of three, or is a unanimous choice), the
> outcome is deemed to be decisive and the electoral process is
> concluded. However, if three different people are nominated, then a
> conciliation process takes place, with the aim of eliminating one
> nominee and making a choice between two nominees only. The
> Chairperson's term of office is two (2) years, but he/she can serve as
> many terms as are seen fitting."
> 
> 1) "(however, ESC members who are also members of the BoD can only
> cast one single vote in this election, regardless of their membership
> of both bodies)": So which body do they cast their vote in? How and
> when is that decision taken? The choice could change the outcome of
> the voting.

Right, that sounds clunky so let me clarify: members of the ESC who are
also members of the BoD only vote at the BoD and not at the ESC. Is it
better?

> 
> 2) "(a specific list of names, or one name only, will have been
> submitted by the BoD and the AB)": How would the list be drawn up?
> Perhaps you need at least a cross-reference to another clause in the
> bye-laws that resolves that question? If there's only one name, then
> there would be no point in voting at all...

I can clarify that, but in essence I guess 1)people will nominate
themselves to the BoD and 1)that the BoD as well as the AB can nominate
someone. 

> 
> 3) "However, if three different people are nominated, then a
> conciliation process takes place, with the aim of eliminating one
> nominee and making a choice between two nominees only.": That could
> give rise to a difficult situation... 

Yes. :-)

> IMHO, you would need to
> establish a clear procedure for this, to avoid some tense deadlocks in
> the future...

Well, I think we can submit the Chairman's choice to the popular
election then (understand the TDF contributors).

Best,
Charles. 

> 
> HTH.
> 
> David Nelson
> 



-- 
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Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Michael Wheatland]

> You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.
> Friedrich

I am new to this mailing list thing. I use Gmail and I reply by
clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
list.
How are you able to tell which message I reply to? And what should I
be doing to ensure that the message gets to it's intended target?
But thanks for the tip.

Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.

Thanks again,
Michael Wheatland

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Lee Hyde]

On 22/11/10 15:07, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> I do.
> 
> Because dpkg -i *.deb is esssentialy setup.exe. Don't tell me anyone using
> Windows must not know setup.exe to install software?

'dpkg -i *.deb' is most assuredly NOT the equivalent of setup.exe.
However .deb files are equivalent, this is precisely the point the
original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single
setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of
individual .deb files. This is not user friendly!

On 22/11/10 15:07, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> There is no goddamn need for it. (That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have
> no clue how they do basic system tasks doesn't make it more needed)

This is a rather hostile attitude to show towards end users and an
attitude, might I add, which has served to hinder wider uptake of linux
based operating systems in the past. If your position were to be taken
to its logical conclusion we should scrap LibreOffice, which afterall is
pandering to the masses with its use of GUI and WYSIWYG, in favour of TeX.

Kind Regards,

Lee Hyde.


-- 
"Crime is naught but misdirected energy. So long as every institution of
today, economic, political, social, and moral, conspires to misdirect
human energy into wrong channels; so long as most people are out of
place doing the things they hate to do, living a life they loathe to
live, crime will be inevitable, and all the laws on the statutes can
only increase, but never do away with, crime."

-- Emma Goldman, Anarchism: What it Really Stands For (1910)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:15:25PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> So you'd recommend everybody just running a desktop machine and not
> wanting to get a full featured serveradmin to abhore debian?

No, I want desktop users to know how to use their system. And if they
also administer it they should know basics about dpkg.

> >http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR.
> 
> I can't see this hint an useful answer to the OP's question regarding
> his aparent debian knowledge.

True, but those are debs he can install if he used squeeze or sid :)

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice should have own "LibreOfficeFont"

[Claus Agerskov]

Michael Wheatland skrev:

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Claus Agerskov  wrote:
  

I would see Verdana as one of the pre-installed fonts aswell.


-1

Verdana is a proprietary Microsoft font.

Sorry, didn't knew that.

Then it is also a -1 from me to my own suggestion.

The most enjoyable greetings

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.: AgerCon :: www.agercon.dk :.
.: Konsulentydelser inden for åbne standarder og fri software :.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New support list suggestion

[James Wilde]

On Nov 22, 2010, at 16:16 , Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

> Hi Michael, *,
> 
> Michael Wheatland schrieb:
> 
> 
>> In addition to this we will be setting up support accounts on all of
>> the major social networks.

Will these automatically post the question on the nabble forum and thus on the 
mailing list?  And will the answers come back from the nabble forum and the 
mailing list, or are these separate support sites?

If not yes to both questions, I would agree with Friedrich that there's a 
danger of being divided and conquered with these support accounts on the social 
networks.

//James
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Wheatland schrieb:

>> René Engelhard schrieb:
>>>Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system
>>> to know dpkg. Seriously.

[..]

You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.

Please take care for clear communication.

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)



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Re: [tdf-discuss] New support list suggestion

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Wheatland schrieb:

>If I may throw in my 2c.

Welcome! :o))

>As a part of the official LibreOffice Drupal website development we
>will be creating a Q&A area where there are standard questions and
>answers, but it will also give people the opportunity to ask their own
>questions

That sounds good.

>and have them answered quickly by anyone else on the website
>at the time.

that's a to small base of present knowledge.

>In addition to this we will be setting up support accounts on all of
>the major social networks.

I'm quite shure, it is not a good idea to split forces and know how that
way. There should be a common place where technical support should
happen. Technical issues should be remembered not only by a presentation
platform but also by some kind of "common brain". Answers should be
generated with common knowledge in their back. To many places get that
"find the question on your question" effect, which I personally dislike
much.

>IMHO the process of subscribing, confirming, asking the question,
>getting relies then unsubscribing seems a little much for an end user
>to ask a simple question.

That's what at least I never did think of. Who claimed that?

[..]

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:28:43PM +0800, David Nelson wrote:
> Oh, Wow! What if you're an end user who needs a computer just to do
> work on? Does every Linux user have to be a hard-core geek? And if you
> own a Windows system, should one study for Microsoft certification
> before shelling out you money? :-D
> 
> OK, don't answer that! Please! I was just kidding! :-)

I do.

Because dpkg -i *.deb is esssentialy setup.exe. Don't tell me anyone using
Windows must not know setup.exe to install software?

> Someone helped me solve this same problem for an Ubuntu system. I'll
> draft a how-to over the next few days, file a bug and suggest it for
> inclusion in the Linux downloads.

There is no goddamn need for it. (That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have
no clue how they do basic system tasks doesn't make it more needed)

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] changed footers of all documentfoundation and libreoffice.org mailing lists

[Barbara Duprey]

On 11/22/2010 3:22 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote:

Hi Friedrich,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2010-11-21 14.37:


Well, as You can see I'm in favor of the lyric variant. :o))


I'm against it. We need to make things clear, and put them in normal words. We're not a writer's 
club. ;)



- prosaic variant:
All posts to this list are publicly archived and can not be deleted


+1 But it's "cannot", not "can not", I guess.

Thanks,
Florian


"Cannot" is certainly far more common, but "can not" probably would not be considered incorrect and 
may be more understandable to the international community.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Craig A. Eddy]

On 11/22/2010 07:28 AM, David Nelson wrote:
> Hi, :-)
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 20:31, Rene Engelhard
>  wrote:
>> Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to know
>> dpkg. Seriously.
> 
> Oh, Wow! What if you're an end user who needs a computer just to do
> work on? Does every Linux user have to be a hard-core geek? And if you
> own a Windows system, should one study for Microsoft certification
> before shelling out you money? :-D
> 
> OK, don't answer that! Please! I was just kidding! :-)
> 
> Someone helped me solve this same problem for an Ubuntu system. I'll
> draft a how-to over the next few days, file a bug and suggest it for
> inclusion in the Linux downloads.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> David Nelson
> 

Mr. Nelson,

Thank you, on behalf of myself and all the unknown nameless people who
will benefit in the future.

Craig A. Eddy
Tyche

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Craig A. Eddy]

On 11/22/2010 05:33 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 08:04:29AM -0700, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
>> listed in the README_en-US file.  I'm not familiar with dpgk, though I
> 
> Then get. You administer a Debian-based system without knowing dpkg? Oh my.
> 
> (Besides that, http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice has a metapackage -
> you need at least squeeze for it, though)
> 
> Grüße/Regards,
> 
> René
> 

René

It isn't so much that I administer a Debian release as that I USE a
Debian release and do what I can.  What I do is what I have managed to
learn to do over time, but without any formal training in UNIX, Linux,
administration, coding, or anything else.  That causes gaps in my
education that I freely admit.  I feel no shame for what I have learned
OR for what I haven't learned.  Not everyone can be as experienced as
you, nor can everyone feel as comfortable using CLI as you.  It is,
however why I feel comfortable asking questions or asking for help even
from complete strangers who might think less of me for my asking.

However, thank you for your concern.  :-D

Craig
Tyche

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New support list suggestion

[Michael Wheatland]

If I may throw in my 2c.
As a part of the official LibreOffice Drupal website development we
will be creating a Q&A area where there are standard questions and
answers, but it will also give people the opportunity to ask their own
questions and have them answered quickly by anyone else on the website
at the time.

In addition to this we will be setting up support accounts on all of
the major social networks.

IMHO the process of subscribing, confirming, asking the question,
getting relies then unsubscribing seems a little much for an end user
to ask a simple question.

If people would like to have more input regarding the support
mechanisms for the Drupal website which will be launched early next
year please let us know on the website mailing list ;)

Michael Wheatland

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 20:31, Rene Engelhard
 wrote:
> Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to know
> dpkg. Seriously.

Oh, Wow! What if you're an end user who needs a computer just to do
work on? Does every Linux user have to be a hard-core geek? And if you
own a Windows system, should one study for Microsoft certification
before shelling out you money? :-D

OK, don't answer that! Please! I was just kidding! :-)

Someone helped me solve this same problem for an Ubuntu system. I'll
draft a how-to over the next few days, file a bug and suggest it for
inclusion in the Linux downloads.

HTH.

David Nelson

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Michael Wheatland]

> René Engelhard schrieb:
>>Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to
>> know dpkg. Seriously.

I think it is very important from the very start that the community
does not have an unrealistic expectation of the end user.
Linux is a system which is gaining rapidly in popularity and there are
many end users who have never used the command line (gasp).

Regardless of the question, or the system on which LibreOffice is
intended to run I suggest we answer all questions with patience and
never with vitriol or belittlement.

Anybody working with deb package files and not knowing what to do will
find the following link useful:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1585017

Thanks, I hope this helps.
Michael Wheatland
LibreOffice Drupal Website Development Team
blog.wheatland.com.au

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi René, *,

René Engelhard schrieb:

[.. depency question ..]

>Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to
> know dpkg. Seriously.

So you'd recommend everybody just running a desktop machine and not
wanting to get a full featured serveradmin to abhore debian?

>> >It would be much easier if there were a single meta-package that
>> > would act as the start point.  Failing that, at least an ordered
>> > list that an

>http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR.

I can't see this hint an useful answer to the OP's question regarding
his aparent debian knowledge.

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Florian Reisinger, *,

This mail arrived completely screwed up!
I'm sure no one made the effort to read it.

Florian Reisinger schrieb:

[.. screwed content ..]

Gruß/regards
-- 
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Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

Hi,

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 09:03:35AM -0600, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
> >unsuspecting users to the same problem that OOo has been famous for:
> >there is no obvious way to start to install the files.  Dependencies for

dpkg -i *.deb?

> >each .deb have to be met, but nothing indicates the order with which to
> >install them.  When dealing with 52 .deb files it's like trying to do a
> >jigsaw puzzle where all distinguishing marks have been filed off.

Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to know
dpkg. Seriously.

> >It would be much easier if there were a single meta-package that would
> >act as the start point.  Failing that, at least an ordered list that an

http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

[Rene Engelhard]

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 08:04:29AM -0700, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> listed in the README_en-US file.  I'm not familiar with dpgk, though I

Then get. You administer a Debian-based system without knowing dpkg? Oh my.

(Besides that, http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice has a metapackage -
you need at least squeeze for it, though)

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New support list suggestion

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:
>On 11/19/2010 7:16 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
>> Charles Marcus schrieb:
>>> I'd really like to see an email support list dedicated solely to
>>> questions in the nature of "I know how to do this in
>>> Excel/Word/Powerpoint, but how do I do it on
>>> Calc/Writer/Impress?"...

No, not a mailinglist for that. A mailing list is a quite high hurdle to
participate the question - answer mechanism..

>> I'd rather like to see this in a FAQ - perhaps in a dedicated area
>> or tagged with "MSO relation".

>An FAQ is a good idea, and could quickly be built as a result of
>questions/answers from the mail list - so if this is done, I'd suggest
>adding a simple way to ask a question from the FAQ if the user cannot
>find an answer - that question would then be posted to the users list,
>and once it is answered, the answer could easily be added to the
> FAQ...

I agree, this is the Way to go. A "No answer found? Ask a Question"
button working that way is a very interesting Idea.

There is a similar thing in launchpad - even in a different context.
Random example:
https://launchpad.net/kdocker

look at the right Navbar "Ask a question".

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[Sean White]

because the underlining code inst changing overly-much, most of the
extensions should be easy to port and in th odd case where an extension is
truely broken by LO's remakes then we can rewrite the plugin from scratch.
 As a side not we will probably need a page on the document foundation site
that is for these ported plugins

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:01 PM,  wrote:

> That's a good solution, that will have to come in place whenever
> incompatibles arise.
>
> BTW: I depend totally on others when there's something to code or port.
>
> Regards,
> bastik
>
>
> Sean White wrote:
> > One of the things i LOVE about open source software is the ability for me
> > to
> > ask someone else to code something or port something that i cant do
> > myself.
> >  So my solution to your problem of incompatible extensions is to set up a
> > new mailing list for OO to LO extension porting.  the public can send the
> > extension which the people on the mailing list can then port over.
> >
> I wrote previously:
> > > I'm willing to accept that extensions wont work in future if OO and LO
> > grow
> > > apart, but I think this shouldn't be done artificially by changing the
> > > version number. It could be bad for OO users that want to use LO, but
> > miss
> > > some extensions because they are no longer compatible because the
> > version
> > > number of LO differs.
> > >
> > > Whenever there is a release with a changes for version 4.x.x I accept
> > > incompatibilities.
> > >
> > > not to you James:
> > > Most people don't take version numbers serious anymore. Look at Chrome
> > for
> > > example. The rapid change of major versions is ridiculous.
> > >
> > > LO is not build from scratch, so for me it can stick to 3.x.x and move
> > > onward.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > bastik
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[bastik . public . mailinglist]

That's a good solution, that will have to come in place whenever incompatibles 
arise.

BTW: I depend totally on others when there's something to code or port.

Regards,
bastik


Sean White wrote:
> One of the things i LOVE about open source software is the ability for me
> to
> ask someone else to code something or port something that i cant do
> myself.
>  So my solution to your problem of incompatible extensions is to set up a
> new mailing list for OO to LO extension porting.  the public can send the
> extension which the people on the mailing list can then port over.
> 
I wrote previously:
> > I'm willing to accept that extensions wont work in future if OO and LO
> grow
> > apart, but I think this shouldn't be done artificially by changing the
> > version number. It could be bad for OO users that want to use LO, but
> miss
> > some extensions because they are no longer compatible because the
> version
> > number of LO differs.
> >
> > Whenever there is a release with a changes for version 4.x.x I accept
> > incompatibilities.
> >
> > not to you James:
> > Most people don't take version numbers serious anymore. Look at Chrome
> for
> > example. The rapid change of major versions is ridiculous.
> >
> > LO is not build from scratch, so for me it can stick to 3.x.x and move
> > onward.
> >
> > Regards,
> > bastik
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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice should have own "LibreOfficeFont"

[Michael Wheatland]

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Claus Agerskov  wrote:
> I would see Verdana as one of the pre-installed fonts aswell.
-1

Verdana is a proprietary Microsoft font. Let's focus on open source
solutions such as those previously discussed on the Documentation list
including Liberation, Bitstream, Droid, FreeSans, FreeSerif, Goudy
Bookletter 1911, Flaminia, etc.
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Branding-and-Documentation-td1836672.html

The discussion aimed at including ~10-20 quality OPEN source fonts
which are commonly used is quite mature. I suggest you have a look at
the Documentation mailing list for the info.

Personally I would like to see active discouragement of the use of
Times New Roman, Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Calibri, Cambia, etc. as
they are restricted to Microsoft product use only, resulting in
impossible verbatim compatibility.

Thanks for the enthusiasm, even if a bit misdirected IMHO.

Michael Wheatland

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[Sean White]

One of the things i LOVE about open source software is the ability for me to
ask someone else to code something or port something that i cant do myself.
 So my solution to your problem of incompatible extensions is to set up a
new mailing list for OO to LO extension porting.  the public can send the
extension which the people on the mailing list can then port over.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:13 PM,  wrote:

> > On Nov 21, 2010, at 22:31 , jonathon wrote:
> >
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > On 11/21/2010 09:15 PM, James Wilde wrote:
> > >
> > >> ...and?  Is LibO going to upgrade the version number every time OOo
> > does?  And only then?
> > >
> > > Unless there is a "compatibility tag" for extensions, the way that
> there
> > > is for firefox, LibO is stuck with the version numbering that OOo uses,
> > > if it wants to retain compatibility with those extensions.
> > >
> > Well, I appreciate that it would mean two sets of numbers for extensions,
> > but I can imagine that, in a not too distant future, OOo and LibO are
> going
> > to grow apart, possibly sufficiently that an extension for the one will
> > not work with the other.  Why not accept that from day 1?
> >
> > //James
>
> I'm willing to accept that extensions wont work in future if OO and LO grow
> apart, but I think this shouldn't be done artificially by changing the
> version number. It could be bad for OO users that want to use LO, but miss
> some extensions because they are no longer compatible because the version
> number of LO differs.
>
> Whenever there is a release with a changes for version 4.x.x I accept
> incompatibilities.
>
> not to you James:
> Most people don't take version numbers serious anymore. Look at Chrome for
> example. The rapid change of major versions is ridiculous.
>
> LO is not build from scratch, so for me it can stick to 3.x.x and move
> onward.
>
> Regards,
> bastik
> --
> GRATIS! Movie-FLAT mit über 300 Videos.
> Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome
>
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> discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
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>
>


-- 
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I've Seen the Cow Level

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Re: [tdf-discuss] after beta3

[Sean White]

lets hope not, as god as LO is it is still not ready for general release.
 The coding is not yet finished, the interface is still that clunky thing
thats been around since the 90's and is a little old and, most importantly,
a good marketing strategy is yet to appear.  The success of this sort of
product isn't in the coding or the interface though they may be attributing
factors.  Without a good marketing strategy even the best piece of software
can go unnoticed and undervalued.  An example of this is linux.  Linux as a
whole doesn't get marketed, individual distro's do, and this, from the
public eye, makes linux look like it lacks direction and purpose.   Compare
that to Windows where the underlining code isn't the best BUT it has a
killer marketing team who have made it a well advertised and in the public
domain all the time.  the better product from the public perspective is a
clear win for windows

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Jih-Yao Lin  wrote:

> Will beta3 be the last beta version of LO 3.3 ?
>
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>


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I've Seen the Cow Level

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Version Numbers?

[bastik . public . mailinglist]

> On Nov 21, 2010, at 22:31 , jonathon wrote:
> 
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > On 11/21/2010 09:15 PM, James Wilde wrote:
> > 
> >> ...and?  Is LibO going to upgrade the version number every time OOo
> does?  And only then?
> > 
> > Unless there is a "compatibility tag" for extensions, the way that there
> > is for firefox, LibO is stuck with the version numbering that OOo uses,
> > if it wants to retain compatibility with those extensions.
> > 
> Well, I appreciate that it would mean two sets of numbers for extensions,
> but I can imagine that, in a not too distant future, OOo and LibO are going
> to grow apart, possibly sufficiently that an extension for the one will
> not work with the other.  Why not accept that from day 1?
> 
> //James

I'm willing to accept that extensions wont work in future if OO and LO grow 
apart, but I think this shouldn't be done artificially by changing the version 
number. It could be bad for OO users that want to use LO, but miss some 
extensions because they are no longer compatible because the version number of 
LO differs.

Whenever there is a release with a changes for version 4.x.x I accept 
incompatibilities.

not to you James:
Most people don't take version numbers serious anymore. Look at Chrome for 
example. The rapid change of major versions is ridiculous.

LO is not build from scratch, so for me it can stick to 3.x.x and move onward.

Regards,
bastik 
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[tdf-discuss] next SC confcall on Sunday

[Florian Effenberger]

Hello,

thanks for taking part in the poll. The next public Steering Committee 
Conference Call will take place


this Sunday, November 28th, 1500 UTC

For your local date and time, see the time zone selector at 
http://www.doodle.com/vtfkz4f2es79ftad


As usual, dial-in instructions and the agenda will be made available at 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings and 
we're looking forward to you taking part in our call!


Thanks for joining,
Florian

--
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Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [tdf-discuss] changed footers of all documentfoundation and libreoffice.org mailing lists

[Florian Effenberger]

Hi Friedrich,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2010-11-21 14.37:


Well, as You can see I'm in favor of the lyric variant. :o))


I'm against it. We need to make things clear, and put them in normal 
words. We're not a writer's club. ;)



- prosaic variant:
All posts to this list are publicly archived and can not be deleted


+1 But it's "cannot", not "can not", I guess.

Thanks,
Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice should have own "LibreOfficeFont"

[Claus Agerskov]

Mirek M. skrev:

'm really against a special LibO font. What the open-source community
should be doing is ensuring that a select few open-source fonts are
available in as many places as possible. Just like documents written with
Times/Arial/Courier fonts are readable basically everywhere, documents with
Bitstream Vera or Liberation fonts should be readable everywhere, too.
  

+1

I would see Verdana as one of the pre-installed fonts aswell.

The most enjoyable greetings

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Why LO mobile version should not be ignored

[Valter Mura]

In data mercoledì 17 novembre 2010 09:19:06, Chris Carpenter ha scritto:

> On 11/17/2010 01:36 AM, e-letter wrote:
> > Related to an earlier post
> > (http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg02677.html
> > ), the following news article hyperlink
> > (http://blogs.wsj.com/tech-europe/2010/11/12/ghanaian-sms-start-up-tackle
> > s-fake-drug-scourge/) is an interesting application of mobile phone
> > technology and provides further credence to the importance of the future
> > potential mobile devices market.
> 
> Well, for what it is worth (which isn't much) I believe that we
> definitely need to get into the mobile market(even a mobile compatible
> web app would work, though a native client would be preferred).
> 

+1 for the idea.

And take a look here: http://www.dataviz.com/index.html

Regards,
-- 
Valter
Registered Linux User #466410  http://counter.li.org
Kubuntu Linux: www.kubuntu.org
OpenOffice.org: www.openoffice.org

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