This submission is not responsive to any of the material in tonight's
discussion. It is a new topic. As a newcomer, I'm not certain this is
the proper way to make my first submission. If I'm out of line, please
enlighten me.
Thanks,
Fred Gohlke
ACTIVE DEMOCRACY
Good Afternoon, Juho
(I just noticed that I have another message from you, in another area.
I will copy it and respond as quickly as I can, probably tomorrow. I'm
inexpert at navigating this site, but learning. flg)
In the message I'm responding to, you raise several important issues.
Good Afternoon, Juho
re: I tend to think that often the understanding is also the most
crucial step. I mean that after such understanding and model is found
that it covers all aspects and players and can be accepted by all, then
people tend to think that actually it is obvious and it is
Good Morning, Juho
re: But citizens may also feel that some of the elected representatives
got through without any wide support, just based on their capability to
explain their way through and having good luck in getting appropriate
competitors/supporters when the election tree was
Good Evening, Juho
re: Some rules always exist.
Of course. There is no question but that rules are an important part of
the process. That is not the point. The point is that, in terms of
behaviour in the Active Democracy groups, harnessing human nature is
more effective at governing
Good Afternoon, Puho
I apologize for the tardiness of my response. I've been away and had a
considerable amount of work to dig through when I returned.
re: I don't trust that groups of three would always make good decisions
even if given time. (I see you expressed a slightly different view
Good Evening, Juho
re: I may feel that in the long chained process some of the benefits
may be lost ...
In my view the long chained process or sequential nature of the group
assignments add strength to the process. We know many people do not
participate in the present system and we can
Good Evening, Juho
re: ... where the political parties break out from their simple role as
groups of similar minded people and start exercising power outside of
the role originally planned for them.
That's close.
re: The problem thus is that since the votes in practice are not secret
bad
Good Evening, Dave
re: What the parties do is more a response to the structure of
government and the responsibilities of voters.
Can you describe these two points more clearly? Do not the party
leaders direct the parties actions? In what way(s) does the structure
of government affect them?
Good Evening, Dave
re: In New York, at least, the two major parties each do such as
appoint half the members of the Boards of Elections. and also in regard
to the related comments about party leadership, party activities,
party business, state party, and county organizations.
To me, this says
Good Afternoon, Juho
Again, I must apologize for my tardiness, but I've been away. The trip
gave me an opportunity to consider the matter of secrecy in voting from
a point of view that hadn't occurred to me before. Before describing
it, I'd like to make an observation.
Voting secrecy is but
Good Afternoon, David
re: How would you do better?
Well, for starters, I'd ponder ways to empower the electorate by
harnessing our nature and de-emphasizing partisanship. I'm sure there
are many ways that can be done. You'll find an outline of one
possibility at
[Election-Methods]
Good Afternoon, Juho
Is it possible you have not read my February 4th post, Selecting
Leaders From the People? It describes an election method I call Active
Democracy. If not, that may explain some of the confusion in our
discussion. Throughout our exchange, I've been under the impression
Good Morning, David
re: I see an 'Election Commission' there. ...
You're right. 'Election Commission' was a poor choice of terms on my
part. Our experience with commissions in party politics is enough to
destroy anyone's confidence that such entities can be objective. I
could have used
Good Morning, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
Again, I'm not quite sure how to respond. Please forgive me but I seem
to be too dull to grasp the point you're making, if there is one. While
I believe humor is important in conveying ideas (however inept I may be
at using it), facetious comments, without
Good Morning, Juho
re: The method introduces some clear benefits but also some problems.
I'd maybe try to find a method that would keep most of the benefits and
eliminate most of the problems. (There could be many paths forward.)
I agree. We have many options. Right now, our best bet is to
Good Morning, Juho
Very well said. I hope you're right. I hope we can improve our
political systems in less than 200 years. But, as you point out, ...
the current establishment always has clear reasons to oppose any
changes. That will make the process slow, and, possibly, painful.
You
Good Evening, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
I prefer to exchange views with you on the Election-Methods site.
The way we select those who represent us in our government is critical
to our society, which embodies all manner of people. To create an
effective political structure I'm anxious to get
Good Morning, Juho
Your I'm sure that is not the last meaningful step in the evolution of
political systems. in response to my lament was a stunner. What a
polite way you have of countering my expression of frustration. Thanks,
I needed that.
re: ... one needs to adapt to a situation where
And a cheerful Sunday Morning to you, Juho
re: No need to have very strong opposing arguments ...
Well, opposing arguments should be as strong as anyone can make them.
Any weakness in an idea should be attacked and broken down rationally.
Frequently, looking carefully at a weakness provides
Good Afternoon, Juho
re: Unfortunately humans do have tendencies e.g. to win a discussion
(and thereby make the others lose), to prove one's own viewpoints to
be right, to believe that only one theory can be the truth, to believe
that here is nothing to learn from points of view that are
Good Morning, Juho
re: Good rules, voting methods etc. are there waiting to be discovered
and generally approved.
And that is what we are attempting in this discussion.
We are trying to learn from our mistakes. We have no shortage of
lessons, whether of ideologies suppressing ideologies,
Good Afternoon, Juho
re: I guess US is still a democracy in the sense that people can decide
otherwise if they so wish.
That is inaccurate. The only choices the people have are those foisted
on them by those who control the political parties that have a
stranglehold on our nation's political
Good Afternoon, Juho
re: Maybe other viewpoints like the wasted money and problems of
one-dollar-one-vote may have more impact on them than the interest to
limit the size of the entertaining media event.
Aren't you and I wasting effort focusing on such matters? They are
symptoms of a deeper
Good Afternoon, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
I'm sorry I'm so slow in responding to your post. I am still, in my own
somewhat ponderous way, reflecting on your message and considering a
proper response. I will post it as quickly as I am able.
Fred
Election-Methods mailing list - see
Good Afternoon, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
After considerable thought, a review of our prior exchanges, and several
readings of your message, I can find no basis for rational discourse
with you. You find me offensive and any attempt by me to alter that
view runs the risk of reinforcing it.
Fred
Good Morning, Juho
re: ... I'm more inclined to see the parties still as units that still
get their strength and mandate to rule from the citizens themselves (and
from their lack of interest to make the parties better and control them
better).
Although I (obviously) don't share your view, I
Good Morning, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
After studying your missive, it appears you make three points: Your
preference for Free Association, your advocacy of Delegable Proxy, and
your travails with Wikipedia. As to the latter, I can offer neither
help nor guidance. I will, however, comment on
Good Evening, Juho
re: I already commented earlier that the groups of three based method
that you have studied does not implement proportionality in the
traditional way.
You're right. It's not traditional, but it sure is proportional. One
of the unspecified conditions I intended for the
Good Afternoon, Juho
re: Only on the (country independent) technical properties of the
groups of three method.
(If there are e.g. two parties, one small and one large, the
probability of getting two small party supporters (that would elect one
of them to the next higher level) in a group of
Good Afternoon, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
re: Mr. Gohlke, do you care to look at this?
OK. Absent a specific definition of the group of voters to which you've
assigned a ratio of 'p', 'p' can be taken to represent any group of
people who have an identifiable political orientation, and 'x' is the
Good Morning, Mr. Lundell
I'm sorry my response is taking so long, but I'm working my way through
the link you gave me to John Stuart Mill's treatise regarding Mr. Thomas
Hare's proposal. He makes the case for political proportionality
admirably, although his antipathy for his country's
Good Afternoon, Mr. Lundell
Thank you for your lucid explanation. It, combined with the link you
provided to the J. S. Mill discussion of the topic, explained an aspect
of politics I hadn't considered. At first blush, I have no issue with
political proportionality. In fact, based on your
Good Morning, Juho
re: I do have some sympathy towards regional proportionality since in
many systems one could otherwise soon get a very capital area centric
set of representatives (who appear more often on TV and news etc.).
Regional proportionality may thus help guaranteeing that all parts
Good Afternoon, Juho
re: One more observation on the risks. Some people may feel
participation in a triad to be more challenging than dropping a ballot n
a box and therefore avoid taking part in such challenging activities
where they are expected to perform and prove their viewpoint.
Are
Good Morning, Dave
I think I owe you an apology. Somehow, I failed to make myself clear.
What I sought to do was put some marks on a board so you (and others)
could tell me how those marks should be changed to create a sound
electoral process. I anticipated differences of opinion and
Good Morning, Juho
I haven't been idle. As a result of my discussion with you and others,
it occurred to me we should distinguish between the process of selecting
candidates and the process of electing those candidates to office. That
idea gradually took shape over the past couple of weeks,
Hi, Juho
re: Yes, the new method has some properties that support this (i.e.,
replacing emotion with reason, flg). It is however not guaranteed that
feelings, parties and other differentiating factors will not find their
way in and play some role also in that method.
You are correct. We
Good Afternoon, Kevin
When reading, did you see the
[Election-Methods] Selecting Leaders From The People
post from February 4th? A major impediment to selecting our leaders
FROM the people is the role of political parties, and that led to the
discussion on this thread.
The cited post
Good Afternoon, Forest
I've thought about your proposal since I first read it the other day.
I'm unclear about the human dynamics. The proposal, as later adjusted,
seems to have a negative tinge; it relies on eliminating people judged
undesirable rather than elevating those judged desirable.
Good Morning, Jonathan
Thank you very much for explaining the purpose of the process. Except
for mentioning my preference for a series of very small, randomly chosen
groups of people (3) selecting the person they believe best represents
their interest, a process that focuses on positives
Thank you for writing that, Brian Olson, I felt it but wouldn't say it.
My impression, from trying to follow some of the discussions on this
site, is that there's little, if any, interest in democracy. Instead,
the esoteric schemes proposed here seem intended to empower minorities
(factions,
Good Afternoon, Stephane Rouillon
I, for one, find your suggestion original and elegant.
You have described a simple way of dividing the people into districts,
independent not only of their geographic location but of their
ideological predispositions, as well. Candidates who seek to
Good Afternoon, Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I understand and agree with you
on plurality and two-party dominion, and their off-shoots,
gerrymandering and the various forms of corruption. The difference
between our views seems to be the focus on finding a
Good Afternoon, Raph Frank
Thank you very much for your comments. The material I referred to may
have been extensive, but is not as extensive as a careful contemplation
of this complex topic requires. I did not expect others to study the
material. I supplied it for those who enjoy fresh
Good Evening,
re: The construction of organizations and their interplay in the domain
of politics is, I think, more than anything else a process.
I agree, and understanding the process is critical.
Parties take on a life of their own ... and their life-blood is money.
Their primary and
Good Morning, Michael Allan
Thank you for your suggestion. I visited your site and must return to
study it more carefully. My immediate concern is how candidates are
evaluated. Do voters decide based on candidates' stated positions or is
there a mechanism for examining candidates to
Good Morning, Raph
Thank you for posting my letter.
I suspect we are seeing the process differently. In my view, candidates
can only stand for election in a single district and the only candidates
the electorate will consider are those seeking election from their
district: I'm Honest Joe,
Good Morning, Raph
I think that description is close to a sound system. Something not too
different may be proposed in a community in England later this year. I
have a draft of the petition I can send you, if you'd like to see it.
Fred
Election-Methods mailing list - see
Whoops!
It was your entire post of Mon Sep 8 03:44:51 PDT 2008
I didn't cite it because I was responding to the entire post, which follows:
(clip)
One option is to select the legislature at random. Stratified random
sampling would yield a highly representative legislature. The
population
Good Morning, Raph
When I offered to send you a draft of the petition outlining a method of
selecting candidates for public office, I planned to send it privately.
After seeing your response, I asked the author's permission to post it
publicly and he agreed. Here's the draft in its current
Good Morning, Terry Bouricius
re: ... I have long advocated a greater use of sortition (the selection
by lot) to select legislators ...
It seems to me the problem with picking people by lot is that it
provides no means of examining them. I understand that it produces a
random sample of the
Good Morning, Aaron Armitage
re: I don't think I expressed my point clearly enough: I
consider that making the public the active agents in their
own governance is a very major benefit of popular
government. THE benefit, in fact.
I think you made your point with great clarity.
Good Morning, Raph
re: You have created a conflict of interests here. People who don't
set aside their own ambition are favoured.
Can you supply a rationale to support this statement?
Since the human dynamics are the most important aspect of any electoral
process, I'd like to understand
Good Afternoon, again, Kristofer
Here is an analysis of the question of group size. Alternative views
are welcome.
Fred
DELIBERATIVE GROUP SIZE and PERSUASION
At the initial level, when the entire electorate meets for the first
time to select one member of a triad to represent
Good Afternoon, Raph
re: A person who wants to be selected would try to convince the
other 2 to support him, even if he thinks one of them would
be better.
This is the conflict of interests.
Of course a person who wants to be selected will try to attract the
support of the
Good Morning, Raph
re: (With regard to the suggestion that the process 'Have one
triad judge the other'):
Well, the person can still try to convince the judges, the
point is that he doesn't act as judge of his own fitness.
Basically, the six people would meet up and then
Good Morning, Kristofer
Thanks for the link. I'll check it as soon as I can.
re: If the council is of size 7, no opinion that holds less than
1/7 of the voters can be represented, so if the opinion is
spread too thin, it'll be removed from the system; but if
you have an extreme
Good Afternoon, Raph
re: However, under your system, they (minority views) do get
represented in the level 1 triads. What they lose is the
having high level representatives.
Ah. Now we're at the crux of the matter ...
Whether or not a minority view retains high level
Good Afternoon, Kristofer
re: The rationale (for protecting an opinion not held by the
majority of the electorate) is that it enables compromise.
I submit that the essence of the Practical Democracy concept is
compromise. Three people, exchanging views on a variety of public
issues and
Good Morning, Raph
re: My concern would be that their opinions would be dismissed
out of hand. If there is nobody pushing them at a national
level, then that is an almost instinctive reaction to weird
ideas (including 'good' weird ideas).
Any opinion that can be dismissed
Good Morning, Michael
(First of all, I just found a message from you to me on September 8th.
I ran across it by accident. I apologize for missing it. Perhaps it
would be better if you clicked on the link with my name at the very top
of my posts. When you do that your message comes to me by
Good Morning, Raph
re: The principle is that if you can't advance (best case
scenario), then just make sure nobody else advances (2nd
best scenario).
Fortunately, people who would pursue such a course are rare. The
majority of humans are rational, reasonable people. They have to
Good Afternoon, Michael
This is in response to your message to me on September 8th.
You describe what you have in mind via at least one level of abstraction
and, for me, that adds a degree of difficulty. For example, and please
forgive me obtuseness, I don't understand your closing
Good Morning, Michael
(your message of Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:29:35)
re: My recommendation was therefore to set up an *alternative*
electoral system in parallel with the existing systems
(primary and principal). It would give electors a different
means of selection. Their
Good Morning, Michael
Thank you for that.
If I made my presentation in a way that could be misunderstood, the
error is mine. If you misunderstood, others will too, and that's a flaw
in the presentation.
I appreciate your gracious offer of a truce, but deeply regret
conducting myself in a
Good Afternoon, Dave
Thank you for the Vito Marcantonio story. The story is not unique, but
it is a good example of how political parties make rules and enact laws
that give them a stranglehold on our political infrastructure.
Parties are institutions of humans. They function precisely as
Good Morning, Kristofer
There is so much good material in your message that, instead of
responding to all of it, I'm going to select bits and pieces and comment
on them, one at a time, until I've responded to all of them. I hope
this will help us focus on specific parts of the complex topic
because it protects no vested interest. The only way
such a process will ever be adopted is if the concept can be made a
topic of discussion, particularly among students interested in achieving
a righteous government.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em
Good Morning, Kristofer
re: So, in essence, the pyramid structure remains even after
selection?
Yes. We have the capability of retaining the information and it should
be used to enhance the role of those elected to act as spokesperson for
a segment of the electorate. In this
Good Afternoon, Kristofer
re: ... the process we're describing is an exponential one.
That's where it gains its power, but that also means that
the views a candidate has to integrate rises very quickly.
Thus it may not only be corruption that limits the
representation, but
Good Morning, Kristofer
re: ... would be good for the petition to include information
about the level of the person who originated it.
My initial reaction to this suggestion was unfavorable, oddly, for the
very reason you thought it worthwhile; fear that petitions coming from
the lower
Good Morning, Kristofer
re: You may say that parties, wanting to be re-elected, would
stay in center ...
I think parties are more inclined to keep one foot in the center while
stretching as far as they can toward the extreme with the other. That's
why we so often hear that the
COMMENTS ON AMERICAN POLITICAL PARTIES
Political parties are quasi-official institutions designed to acquire
the reins of government. They sponsor candidates for public office by
providing the resources needed to conduct a campaign for election. As a
condition of their sponsorship, they
Good Afternoon, Dave
I fear there is a great difference in our views. You seem to feel
parties have a rightful place in our political infrastructure.
I don't.
I have no objection to the existence of parties. I consider them a
vital part of society. However, I deny, vehemently, that they
Good Afternoon, Dave
Your recitation of the history of the Green Party in New York is typical
of efforts to create political alternatives. In my view, we will be
better served when we forget labels like Left and Right and Green and
Liberal and Conservative and devote our energy to seeking
Good Morning, Kristofer
Thank you very much for the link to the Mother Jones article describing
efforts to curtail the utter domination corporations exert over our
existence. Perhaps, in time, reason will triumph.
re: Practical Democracy really then has two parts - the
selection phase
, National Socialism and Communism
enough to show that in a partisan environment it's impossible to
guarantee all opinions will always be given sufficient space to
breathe. However much you may advocate partisanship, you can not deny
its potential for extreme and destructive manifestations.
Fred
be a better way. We've got to do
better than this.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
are necessary.
You could have fooled me.
re: Few species kill each others as eagerly and as intentionally
... as we do.
As long as our political systems are based on ideological confrontation,
such results are inevitable.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http
to a
better solution.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
be.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
on
the destructive nature of party politics, perhaps we can move on to
proposing a structural transformation that avoids their adverse effects.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
care to do so in English, I will respond as well as I can.
re: To state the obvious is not fallacious ...
Ya got me!
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Good Afternoon, Michael
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
fear I
shan't learn much from your commentary.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
there will
be nothing to salvage.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
assertions. When it's all said and done, though, my only hope is that a
few open-minded people will consider the nature of partisan politics,
objectively and rationally, and lend their wit and wisdom to improving
our political system.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http
the courage to objectively
analyze the profoundly anti-democratic nature of partisan politics, and
do so in spite of the storm of calumny their efforts are sure to unleash.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
candidate.
In the short term, I think you're probably right. Meanwhile, we should
consider the elements of a long-term solution.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
a practical method of asking the people of Owego
who they want as their mayor.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
such a process will ever be adopted is if the concept can be made a
topic of discussion, particularly among students interested in achieving
a righteous government.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
of leadership. My post to Juho
this morning outlined one possibility. Thoughtful people who recognize
the untapped resources of humanity can probably suggest others.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Oriental Heritage, page 20.
We can do better!
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
it
is always a voice and never a power. The danger is not
in partisanship, it is in allowing partisans to control
government.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
are significant sources of information.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
it
is always a voice and never a power. The danger is not
in partisanship, it is in allowing partisans to control
government.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
to
participate in, and learn from, the process because the dynamics that
affect each participant vary from election to election.]
iii) Voter may withdraw her vote, or shift it to another
candidate, without restriction
[That is a fundamental tenet of Practical Democracy, as proposed.]
Fred Gohlke
beyond writing futile letters to the editor of the local paper, the
people can actually influence their own government.
That is an enormous change from the present state of affairs.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
other aspects of your post as time permits. In the
meantime, perhaps you would like to examine this particular point in
greater detail.
Fred Gohlke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
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